B (2:25)

Is this for real? You know, are you pulling.

C (2:27)

That's a Real story.

B (2:28)

I'm picturing what town was this in?

C (2:32)

A little town called Huntington, Texas. So an hour and a half north of Houston.

B (2:38)

This is, this is why they wanted to abolish the Department of Education. Where's Doge when we need it? So, so, so the teachers is taking suggestions for your pregnant. My 16 year old moms. That's hilarious. It's a cool name.

A (2:54)

And she backed out on the abortion for religious reasons, you said?

C (2:59)

Yeah, yeah, for religious reasons. They passed around the hat, so it's in my grandma's wig. Okay. So I'm sitting in my grandma's way because it's like a Scotch Irish like wake. So you stay at a church, traditionally a home, but like in modern days you stay in a church all night and you set up with the body. Right. And so we're sitting like three feet from my grandmother's corpse. It's like 11pm and one of my mom's friends from high school comes up to me and she was like, you know, we asked around your a hat for your mother to have an abortion. And I'm glad that she didn't do it. And I'm like, I don't know what to say. I was like, did she give you your money back? And she was like, you know, she didn't. How's your time?

B (3:44)

Your mom is still with us.

C (3:46)

Oh yeah, she's. I mean, she's only 16 years older than me. I'm 29, so she's in her 40s.

B (3:51)

45. So. So we should, we should get your mom on the show too.

C (3:55)

She literally just called me. I forgot to put my phone on. Silence.

B (3:58)

Should we send her a zoom link?

C (3:59)

We'll call her back. Don't, please. She would hate that I told that story.

B (4:05)

I want to meet your mom. And who's your dad?

C (4:09)

Oh God.

B (4:12)

Homecoming king. What is he?

C (4:14)

No, no, he. So my biological dad became a, like a drug dealer, like a meth dealer. And then he also married my mom's cousin at one point. So I have a half brother who's also like my second cousin on my mom's side. It's a real like redneck. Like, you know, these are not the usually the type of people who become journalists, but you know, I, I tweeted a lot on. So when you read like five years.

B (4:42)

Ago, when you read Hillbilly Elegy, did you identify like? I haven't read it, but I, I just, I just in my own bigoted way, I assume this is like a similar, like, you know.

C (4:54)

Yeah.

B (4:54)

Story.

C (4:55)

I Actually, yeah, go ahead. Oh, I wrote a piece.

B (4:58)

Save me for Myself. Go ahead.

C (4:59)

Yeah, no, I wrote a piece about it for the Free Press and I was basically saying I think it's kind of, I don't know, it's kind of gross to like air out your family's dirty laundry to make the political point that JD was making at the time, which is that basically if you're poor, like a poor white person, it's because of your own moral misgivings. And that, yeah, like, a lot of things have happened, but like, look at me. I'm, you know, a, you know, Ivy League educated tech bro. And if I can do it, then these people can too. They're just not trying. And I don't know, I mean, I am somebody who came from a pretty similar background and I found, you know, I don't have tech bro money, but, you know, like, I have like a career in media. And that's not usual, but it's a lot of it was luck and being in the right time, the right place. And like, you know, there's like three things that could have gone wrong in my life and I'd be like, in prison or like dead of an overdose. So I. I don't know. I think, I think he's, you know, sort of changed his opinions now. But I don't know. I don't like that book. I like it well, the wrong way.

B (6:15)

The argument. I did it so other people can do it too. While there can be something to that, of course, it's also like very vulnerable to all sorts of biases because first of all, a certain number of people get lucky. But also, like, for instance, Glenn Lowry, who's a friend of mine and I'm a big admirer of his, but he's a black conservative and the self help, somewhere within him is the self help message. And I've said to him, yeah, but Glenn, you're a genius. Like, you know, the fact that you're a genius obviously has something to do with that. You made it. So it may not be so easy for the average Joe to make it. Given all things being equal, it might be legit to say, you know, you can do it too. Or it might just be, well, I'm an outlier because I'm so gifted. Nothing could have held me back. You just don't know.

C (7:11)

Yeah, I mean, I think about my success. I'm not really like that. There's definitely people I grew up with who are smarter than I am, who are, you know, working on oil rigs.

B (7:21)

Periel has the same experience.

C (7:26)

Yeah.

D (7:26)

And yet here I am.

A (7:28)

That's a good job though, isn't it, working on an oil rig.

C (7:30)

It is. It's good money, but, you know, it's not, you know, people, even though they probably make more money than I do, honestly, like a lot of them anyway, you know, people perceive, you know, white collar sort of professional, creative class work, however you want to put it in like a different way than that sort of thing. And like I got, you know, if it weren't for the Internet, I wouldn't have a media career. And a lot of people like me, like, who have a similar background to me wouldn't have media careers because I didn't go to an elite college. I would have never met like Barry Wise if it weren't for the Internet. Right. Like, I would never have met really anybody who, who like given me an opportunity in this industry if it weren't for the Internet. And you know, really like Twitter, just like being able to express your opinions and like audition almost like for publications just with an Internet connection.

A (8:24)

A quick question. Do they sleep on the rig or do they commute back and forth?

C (8:29)

My stepdad who raised me, I call him my dad, he worked on an old rig for two years. He's most. He's log truck driver, but he, he wrecked his old truck like two months after my younger brother was born. And so he had to go work on an oil rig. And whenever he was doing it, you had to, you didn't stay on the rig, which he was on. On. He wasn't offshore. He was on like a. It was somewhere out in West Texas, but it was like on land. But they had to sleep in like these sort of like trailer house, sort of like. It was basically like a big like double wide trailer house with a bunch of bunk beds in it. And so it's just like 30 dudes like sleeping in there for like two weeks at a time and then you get two weeks off. You can come and.

A (9:14)

We're not here to talk about oil rigs and I know Noam's probably upset that I changed the subject. No, I do find it interesting.

B (9:20)

It is interesting. And of course there are certain echoes of the movie There Will Be Blood where the, the oil man picks up the stepchild and not an oil rig, but you know, oil, oil drilling. You might. That.

C (9:33)

That movie somehow it's.

B (9:34)

You've never seen it.

C (9:35)

Lewis movies. I've never seen. I don't know. I was going to watch it the other day because I just watched. Was the One where he plays like the tailor, like the fashion designer guy. The Invisible Thread or something like that. The Phantom thread. So really good.

B (9:49)

So you, you saw that there was a Daniel Day Lewis movie, very acclaimed, about a oil man that raised a step son. And you said, you know, I'm going to watch American Pie, what it's about.

C (10:02)

I just like vaguely heard of it and I just saw it on my suggestions while I was watching the Phantom Thread and I was like, oh yeah, I should probably watch it.

B (10:08)

It's one of the great movies and one of the great, in my opinion, one of the great theatrical or, you know, cinematic performances. I mean, Daniel Day Lewis is phenomenal. That movie is just phenomenal. All right, so. And Paige, what's the original Jewish name?

A (10:27)

He's no Jew.

B (10:27)

He said you work for the Free Press.

A (10:29)

My God, yeah.

C (10:30)

Well, they did circumcise me as part of the onboarding process.

B (10:36)

You wrote a column here, or whatever you call it, an article. The online right is building a monster. The subhead is there. Increasingly extreme rhetoric is eventually going to freak the. The hell out of ordinary people. This was published recently February 19, 2025. So go ahead, give us a synopsis of your argument.

C (11:03)

So I'll give you the short form and then we can get into it. So the short version of my argument is that around the 2010s, the cultural left was ascendant. And then it all sort of like you had all these ideas, these crazy ideas, building and building, and they were mostly manufactured like through the Internet. You, there's like some academia involved, some other things. It was mostly on Twitter. Things that were happening on Twitter in like 2015, you know, four years down the line, would end up in corporate HR policy, in mainstream TVs and movies, in government policy. And that freaked people out once the.

B (11:47)

Give us an example, give us an example of what?

C (11:49)

You're something like non binary, right? This is something that like really only existed on the Internet for like 10 years. And then all of a sudden it becomes there are non binary characters in movies. You know, non binary people have like a special designation for passports. Like it becomes like a part of whatever you want to call it, like the public private administrative state and culture and.

B (12:17)

Well, when you say it only existed on the Internet, you mean that, you don't mean that it didn't exist in, in real life. Or maybe you do mean it doesn't like. Or you just meant we only. I know we're only, we're only aware of it because on the Internet, I.

C (12:28)

I mean, I Don't think that like, non binary to me is kind of.

B (12:31)

Like, it's neither here nor there.

C (12:34)

If you. Yeah, I, I don't, I'm not really convinced that this is like a real thing. Like, it has no defined meaning. Like, what do you mean you're non binary? And it'. I don't feel like a man or a woman. I'm like, I don't know. But you could just be a gay guy. You could be like, I don't know, there's. To me, like, you know, if you're, if you say like, I'm trans and you, it's like, okay, you used to be a man and now you're like living as a woman. Like, at least that definitionally kind of makes sense. Non binary, it's just kind of like, I don't even know what that means. As you meet non binary people who to me just look like regular women usually, or like gay guys.

B (13:08)

Yeah.

C (13:09)

And I'm a gay guy, so I can say that. But to me. So like, that's an example of like something that reached a sort of like cultural peak. And then people are like, what, what's going on? A lot of the, the weird rhetoric around race, you know, this sort of Ramen d'. Angelo, like, you can't even really be friends with the black person because you should just like feel guilty about, you know, all the time. If you're like a white guy, you can't really like talk about anything without like declaring your privilege. Like all of these sort of weird things that used to be part of Internet subcultures really, like on Twitter and Tumblr became mainstream now, and there was a backlash to that, which I think culminated in Trump's reelection. Now the same thing is happening on the right, where the right is getting. They have a sort of like, newfound cultural ascendancy. They've completely taken over Twitter, which is important because Twitter is the platform of choice of the cultural and political elite of this country. So most Americans aren't on it. But the people who make movies, who write books, who write news articles, who make policy, they're all on Twitter all the time.

B (14:34)

The intelligentsia.

C (14:36)

The intelligentsia. And so that is how the ideas got, you know, sort of introduced through the masses on the left. I think that's gonna, the same thing is gonna happen on the right. And like, it's concerning because every time you log on now, like to Twitter, I don't know if you've, you've been on and maybe you've, you know, peaked your algorithm and like, you don't actually see any of this stuff. I don't know how you don't. I see it constantly, and I don't follow any of these people.

B (14:59)

But.

C (14:59)

But it's, you know, crazy. Anti miscegenation means, like, people don't want interracial marriage anymore.

B (15:07)

Wait, hold up, hold up, hold up. I have never seen an anti. What?

A (15:12)

I see it all the time.

B (15:13)

Anti miscegenation. Well, I see kind of evil stuff. Are you guys into that? You. That your algorithm is feeding you anti miscegenation?

A (15:21)

Because I took on Dave Smith. That's number one.

B (15:24)

But so did.

A (15:25)

So did you.

B (15:25)

What does he have to do with anti miscegenation?

A (15:27)

Because some of the people that follow him, which means some of the people.

B (15:31)

Just for Periel's sake. It means that white people and black people shouldn't get married.

D (15:34)

Don't listen, because I'm quiet right now, but don't.

B (15:39)

Or even mate, probably.

A (15:40)

Well, because, Noam, you know that a lot of people that came at you, came at you from. Called you anti Semitic stuff. So you know that when you take on Dave Smith, you're gonna get some of that.

B (15:50)

But anti miscegenation, it seems like a non sequitur to all.

A (15:53)

Well, those are the same people because they blame Jews for promoting miscegenation. There's all kinds of memes saying that the Jews are responsible for. Well, some people go as far as to say the Jews are responsible for bringing slaves to the United States.

B (16:08)

Okay, but there is something. It'd be interesting to reverse engineer. There is something different in my algorithm and you guys, because I have never seen an anti miscegenation. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I was teasing about it.

A (16:23)

Probably because I also at times respond to these people. And so maybe that's the thing, you know, I'm dumb enough to try to. To argue with.

B (16:30)

I mean, is it possible that your porn category is creating a pixel on your.

A (16:34)

I don't use Twitter for porn. Although one could. I suppose there is porn on Twitter, but that's really not the main place to go for that.

C (16:43)

I mean, I think the point is that, like, these accounts are not small. Like, I guess you could miss them if your algorithm just goes, like, you.

A (16:52)

May take Shields anybody, but, like, they.

C (16:54)

Have, like, millions of followers I'm afraid to look at.

B (16:57)

Well, yeah.

A (16:58)

How do you not get Jake Shields popping up on your feed?

B (17:00)

I see Jake Shields sometimes. I'm not anti miscegenation, but with Jake.

A (17:03)

Shields comes not to me, among other things. And with him.

B (17:07)

It's a Holocaust denial all day long.

A (17:10)

Yeah, I got it.

C (17:10)

Yeah. But as he was saying, the Jewish stuff gets wrapped up in that because they're like, oh, the Jews want like the gentiles to like, dilute the white race or whatever, but, like, they promote, like, race mixing for other people but not for themselves, which I'm like, I don't know. I feel like every other Jewish guy I know is like, married to an Asian chick. So I don't.

B (17:32)

We don't even consider them.

A (17:33)

But no one went the other way and married a Puerto Rican chick.

B (17:36)

Yeah, that's misinformation.

C (17:38)

Yeah. But anyway, I mean, it's. You get a lot of like, the anti Jewish stuff. You get like, homophobia. And this is like one of the ones where I feel like it's gotten kind of more mainstream where you don't have accounts that maybe wouldn't tweet, like, Nazi stuff, but they will treat crazy stuff about gay people, specifically gay men. There's this whole moral panic right now. I don't, I don't know if any of you seen this, but there's this whole moral panic right now about. It's basically a conspiracy theory that says that gay guys are doing surrogacy to like, buy male children to then sexually abuse. And like, Sam Altman, there's like a tweet I had, like, I don't know, like 100,000, like, likes or something, like millions of impressions, which is like, accusing, Sam Altman, the head of OpenAI, just had a baby via surrogate with his husband and it was a boy. And they were accusing him of basically what I just said, like, having a child via surrogate so he can abuse it later on in life. Like, it's this crazy thing that like, all of a sudden everybody believes that. I had never heard, like a year ago I had heard people criticize surrogacy. And like, I think some of those criticisms are, like, somewhat valid, but it was never this. And, and I think it's partly because, like, they can't just go after surrogacy. It's like, okay, well, we're going specifically after gay guys because none of them are going after Elon for having, you know, whatever, like 12 kids, half of them via surrogate.

B (19:17)

So it's.

C (19:17)

It's just stuff like that. You have all these crazy things being developed. And then I think, like, it's going to reach like a cultural maxim. And then once it does, like, people are going to start to get freaked out in the way that they. They were before. Like, when you start talking about things like no fault divorce, or like earnestly overturning gay marriage or even like some like, quasi racial stuff, stuff about Jews, whatever. I think, like, it's. It's going to. To freak people out. And when you have people like politicians, people who work in. In not just the Trump administration, but like, in sort of like the right wing intelligentsia just like enmeshed in this stuff all day, it's really easy. Like, I know that, like, some of the stuff is going to rub off on them because I saw it rub off on people on the left. And I was on the left. I was like a big Bernie Sanders supporter. And I like, you know, I grew up in the working class, so it was like. And I mean, when I was like, volunteering for the Bernie campaign, I was making like 14 bucks an hour. Like, I didn't have any money. Um, and I, like, didn't. I. I had like, health insurance, but it was like such a. Like, it was so burdensome. Like, it was like, I. I almost wish I didn't have it because it was so expensive. I just couldn't go without it with a brutal deductible. Right, right. Yeah. And. And it was just have this like, constant anxiety, like, when you're living on the edge like that. And so it was really supportive of, like, Bernie and his movement. And I was like, finally, like, there's like, a political project that could actually materially improve my life in some way. And I just saw it, like, completely overtaken, especially in, like, the 20 when he ran again in 2020, by people who were like, oh, he can't go on Joe Rogan because this is aoc. Like, oh, Bernie shouldn't go under Rogan because Joe Rogan said that trans women shouldn't play women's sports. And I'm like, I don't think they should either. And also, like, you know, if you want to appeal to working class people, like, most working class people are not. They're not, I don't think, super right wing or racist or anything. Like, they're not, you know, NYU gender studies graduates. Like, they don't, like, they don't even think about this stuff really. And it was just like a complete distraction. And then there were other things with, like, they, you know, people kind of forced Bernie to reverse his position on immigration, which, you know, and tariffs.

B (22:02)

Bernie was all about tariffs and tarot.

C (22:04)

Yeah, yeah. They were like, pushing him into abandoning all of these positions that he had held for decades because he had this sort of like, Class first position, which is that, you know, law of supply and demand, if you increase the labor supply for blue collar workers, which is what massive illegal migration does, it's going to drive wages down. This is basic economics. And so.

B (22:28)

No, well, it's not. I mean, just to be fair, it's, it's, it's, it's a contested in one aspect. From, from one point of view, it's basic economics. But then there's from another point of view, when you bring in these talented and energetic people, there are, there are responsible economists who say, actually no, it's win, win that it. Actually, you know, I'm agnostic on the reality of it. I think it probably depends very much on the subset of people you look at and maybe even the geographical location. But I don't, I am not convinced that wages are depressed necessarily by a certain number of immigrants coming in at some, at some amount. I suppose it's probably inevitable at certain jobs. I don't know. I don't know.

C (23:18)

Yeah, I mean there's like studies showing that illegal migration, specifically in really high numbers suppresses the wages of, of non college educated voters, especially like black.

B (23:36)

I mean, you could imagine a scenario where there's such a shortage, the wages go very high up and then businesses actually can't survive because there's not enough workers. Right. So then, I mean.

A (23:47)

Yeah, so there's also the argument that a lot of these immigrants start businesses. You know, a lot of these stores and these bodegas and these, you know, types of operations.

B (23:59)

I mean, you know, I don't really mean to disagree with you. Like right after Covid, when there was a huge labor shortage. Yeah. Wages were going up like, so there's no, like people definitely offer more money when they can't find workers. So, you know, but I don't know that it's, I think it's, I think it's quite complex. That's all. I think, I think, but go ahead.

C (24:17)

Yeah, I know. I mean, I think that like there's this like big argument that, you know, there's just certain jobs that Americans won't do and what you find, like for example, if you take slaughterhouses, this is one of the jobs that supposedly Americans won't do. And so they recruit all these people, many of them illegal immigrants from places like Mexico and Central America. And they come here and every couple of years all these big slaughterhouses will have some sort of immigration raid and they'll come in and half of the staff will be deported. And the first thing that they do is because they raise wages and then they meet the, like, they are able to hire people. You just have to pay them more. Right, but, and, but then you have.

B (25:05)

To raise your prices.

A (25:07)

Sure.

C (25:08)

But I mean, I don't think like, like, I don't think, I think it's worth paying like an extra 50 cents or whatever for check in if it means that like people actually are able to find meaningful work in their own country. You know, like, I think there are some like, things more important than low consumer prices.

B (25:32)

Yeah. In that particular example, if it's $0.50 per, I mean, I don't even know. I could see that there's other jobs like child care where, you know, at some price of child care, you can't, many people are hiring childcare in order so they can go to work, you know, so the differential becomes not worth working or you really can't, you just can't do it. I, you know, like I said, it's complex. Every industry, sure.

C (25:59)

Yeah.

B (26:00)

Every geographical location has its own reality.

C (26:02)

Kind of beside the point.

B (26:03)

Yeah, not the point.

C (26:05)

The point was it just, you know, I supported Bernie Sanders. I, you know, I thought I have, I'm in sort of like a quandary where I like, I don't really affiliate with like either party or really the right or the left at this point because, you know, my, I, I would be considered to the right on, you know, things like immigration or on trade.

B (26:27)

Even, I think segination.

C (26:28)

Yeah, yeah. But you know, I'm socially liberal to an extent, you know, and I support, you know, big government, for lack of a better word. You know, I, I think we should have universal health care like through a Medicare for all program. Ideally, you know, I support, you know, raising taxes to fund things like Social Security and all that. I support like big government led infrastructure projects. So like, I'm not, you know, I, I probably might, if I had been born in like 1950 or something, I just would have been like a New Deal Democrat. But like, that doesn't really exist anymore. Right. Except for like Bernie Sanders kind of. Point is, I was warning all these people that like, your cultural politics on the left, your cultural politics are going to alienate working class people. And I know this because unlike most of the people who were on the left at the time, like in the Bernie Sanders left, like, I actually grew up working class. I actually grew up around these people. I know who they are. I know that like Bernie Sanders is like the only Democrat I've ever heard my mom say anything nice about. You know, and it's not because of his position on trans issues. It's because he's like talking about the actual, like lived realities of like working class people and offering solutions even if, like, they don't agree with like every single one of them. It's like, oh, he actually, like, does you, like, actually get the impression as a working class person that he actually does care about you? Which is something that people have not felt in a very long time. And I was like, you need to focus on that. All this other stuff, you know, how Bernie feels about it. It's not that Bernie was, you know, anti trans or anti gay or anything. Like he was culturally left wing, more left wing than I am probably. And like, has been since the 90s. But for some reason they wanted this to be the focus of the campaign. And like, and I think, um, it's because you get when you end up in a bubble and that's what old order was. It was a bubble because they banned all the right wing people. You end up with people pushing an increasingly extreme party line, trying to root out, you know, dissent within the ranks. And that produces a political ideology that is unpalatable because you're not talking to normal people. You're not talking to anybody that disagrees with you. And I think that the right on Twitter is like in a, in a similar situation now because so many people have just, you know, if, I mean, I think about getting off of it sometimes he's just gotten into like a weird cesspool and like this is all this like, slop and like it's gotten really bad. So, so I think that. So, so the right is in danger of basically making the same mistakes as the left. Like, that's the whole.

B (29:40)

Well, so a lot of this, of course is, I mean, anti miscegenation notwithstanding. A huge amount of this stuff is absolutely insane anti Semitic stuff that we're seeing going around Twitter now. Stuff. I have to admit, I wouldn't have thought it was possible. I mean, millions and millions and millions of. I mean, I don't know how to judge the ratio of impressions to people who actually are reading something, but there is some ratio. You know, let's, let's say it's even a third. It's probably higher than that. Let's say it's a third. It's still millions of people reading this stuff, right? And the most crazy anti Semitic ideas, all that echo in like age old tropes of Jewish control, Jewish manipulation of the world into war, I mean, you name it. Candace Owens is, you know, the Jews are Israel was created as a pedophile haven, and Theodore Herzl wasn't even Jewish, and the Jews killed jfk. Although I think maybe today we finally learned that the Jews are too clever to leave fingerprints on that one. And what are the other. I mean, there's just so many of them, right? And then, and then you have what's particularly disturbing to me of anybody probably sick hearing me say this, but that it's not. You can't really decide who's crazy and who's not anymore because, you know, if the toe of the, if the, if the nose of the camel is kind of like the Joe Rogan who's kind of, you know, acceptable in the tent, you know, but if you start going back where he goes, you know, he's attached to this one, that one, of that one, that one, and the asshole is, you know, Jake Shields and Dan Bilzerian. And you can't have, you can't have the head without the ass. Like, like they're all attached to each other. They won't say each other anything bad about each other. And then I will say, because I've been agitating, you know, I don't see many of the important voices, many of them Jewish, not all of them Jewish, who would be screaming bloody murder about this stuff. If it was coming from the Joy Reid show, if it was coming from the left, this would be not even worth discussing. They would be, they'd be salivating and pouncing all over it. They find themselves in a, a dilemma, you know, about how to handle this stuff when it's coming from the podcasts that also help Trump get elected and stuff like that. And I'm very disappointed in what's going on. I mean, I think that there needs to be a full on civil war on the, I don't know if want to call it the right, but on the people who hate the left, that group of people who have kind of mobilized against the left and found themselves holding their nose and either voting for Trump or kind of like kind of happy that he won because, you know, of the stake through the heart of the left, that group of people that needs a label, they cannot live together in peace. They should not be living together in peace because you cannot tolerate this kind of anti Semitic conspiratorial nonsense within your ranks. You just can't. No serious intellectual school should be able to tolerate this. And obviously they are, they are tolerating it in some way. You agree with what the, my spiel just now?

C (33:13)

Yeah, no, I see what you're saying, I, I think that it's sort of weird because I remember seeing a lot of people just really like going in and being like, you're an anti Semite, you're crazy, blah, blah, blah, blah. For just, you know, people who were on the left who were criticizing Israel, some of them were like Jewish and like, it's like, I don't know. Just let the record.

B (33:36)

Just hold on. Just. I'm sorry I told you, but just let the record show. I'm not really talking about Israel here, although Israel certainly is an issue. Obviously anti Semites are attracted. But I'm really not talking about the people who are criticizing Israel or anti Israel. I'm talking about the people who are, who are saying much more deeply serious things about the Jews. They're not objecting to Israeli policy. I'm talking about people who are saying that the Jews was on Tucker, that the Jews installed Winston Churchill to be prime minister to pursue Jewish interests and push the world into war. Right. This is, this is Hamas. The Hamas charter says the same thing, by the way. Go ahead.

C (34:26)

Right, yeah, no, like I think. But the point I was trying to make is I think like in the left, like in, in America there's kind of like left wing anti Semitism or right wing anti Semitism. And like, I think the left wing version, which is more just kind of is more like focused on Israel. I think some people like just don't like Jews and like show that sometimes. But that's gonna. I feel like that's gotten a disproportionate amount of attention when like the most like blatant up stuff I've ever seen about most about Jewish people are from people who are like on the very far right who also like, they don't like black people, they don't like gay people, they don't like, you know, like they don't like anybody. And like, it's.

B (35:08)

A lot of these people don't have any problems with gay people. But go ahead, go ahead.

C (35:15)

Maybe so. I don't know, but some of them do.

B (35:17)

Some of them are very libertarian, some of them are more religious.

A (35:21)

But can I ask, is this monster that you qualify is being created on Twitter? Is it an anti Semitic monster, a racist monster, a homophobic monster, all three in equal measure? Which is the dominant thread? The dominant.

C (35:41)

I actually like referred to it's like in the piece as like a Frankenstein's kind of monsters. This is like conglomeration of like all these like different off putting things. So it's like you have like the Racism. You have the asymmetism. You have really retrograde views on, like, women. You have some, like, extreme religious stuff that's not like, you know, not just like, we should have a nationwide abortion ban, but they also think that. But also, like, birth control should be banned, which, like, you know, like, I grew up Protestant, Baptist. Like, that's not even a thing. Like, you're allowed to use birth control. You know, you have really extreme religious stuff. You have extremism, racism, homophobia. It's like all these, like, different things taking on this really weird form. A lot of stuff about women, like. Like, just, like, demeaning to women. The sort of Andrew Tate thing where it's like, you know, it's this weird building where you have, like, conservative Catholics who want to ban the pill in league with, like, Andrew Tate, who's, like, this sort of, like, I don't even. What is his ideology? Like, Islamo decadence or something like that.

B (36:55)

Who is this? I mean, I know. I know who Andrew Tate is, but I've never heard him. What is he? What does he stand for? Why is he famous?

C (37:04)

So he was a MMA fighter. He was on Big Brother uk, and he was. Well, he runs, like, a sex cam business in Romania, and he kind of rose to promise A sex What? Sex cam.

D (37:21)

He had, like, all of these girls who were, like, basically enslaved to working for him. And he does this, like, whole spiel about how he gets the girls to fall in love with him, and then he, like, kind of, like, controls them.

B (37:35)

And how do we know they're enslaved?

D (37:37)

Well, I mean.

C (37:38)

Well, that's the allegation from the Romanian government.

B (37:41)

I see.

C (37:42)

But he's also been, like. He's been accused of rape by, like, a lot of different women. There's, like, lawsuits going out. There's like, a video. Supposedly claim, alleged video. I don't know what I need to say of him, like, meeting a woman. He, like, bragged about punching a woman at a face at a bar in a video one time. Like, he's just. He's. He's not a good guy, you know?

B (38:01)

You mean like Kamala Harris's ex? I mean, what was Kamala Harris's husband's name? How quickly you forget.

C (38:11)

Yeah, I know, right? What was his name?

D (38:15)

Not Doug Douglas.

C (38:17)

It was Doug.

B (38:17)

Doug M. Hoff. Yeah. Doug Em off was accused of punching his girlfriend in the face. Spun her around, but go ahead. Sorry.

D (38:25)

No, this guy. I mean, I don't. I'm not familiar so much with that story, but this guy's like. Like, at like a Weinstein. Like, there are so many allegations against him and you just watch him talk. I mean, he says horrific things about Jews, about women, about.

B (38:41)

I saw his brother talking to Candace Owens about Stalin and Lenin being Jews, but I haven't seen Lenin.

A (38:48)

Was a quarter Jewish, I believe?

B (38:50)

No, I don't think so.

A (38:51)

I'm pretty sure.

B (38:52)

I'll look that up. Go ahead, you guys talk.

A (38:54)

Go ahead. Go ahead, Deb, finish your thought. River.

C (38:59)

But yeah, so you have this weird movement where, you know, you have Andrew Tate and conservative Catholics, you know, on the same team. And so it's like, well, what are they going to find in common? Because, like, now these people are like in a group together and like, the things that they're going to find in common are like antisemitism hating Jews.

B (39:20)

Chat. GPT says there's no historical evidence that Vladimir Lenin was one quarter Jewish. Natterman. That's what it says. Somehow knew that you were the. Go ahead, go ahead.

C (39:29)

Sorry. So they're going to like, come together on, like, you know, varying but different, like, retrograde views on women. They're going to come together on anti Semitism. They're going to come together on, like, you know, homophobia, things like that. And like, it's going to like, I don't know, like it's, it's just like all of these things, like, accumulate, Right. It's like there's. You can't say it. What, an exact point.

B (39:55)

Oh, then it says it might be true. Sorry, there is something I don't want to. Go ahead, I'm reading it. Sorry, sorry, Go ahead.

C (40:02)

Are we talking about London being.

A (40:04)

Yeah, but we're getting.

B (40:05)

I don't want to, you know, I don't want to purvey disinformation or misinformation. So I like to get it right. So go ahead.

C (40:13)

Yeah, well, I mean, you can go to Red Square and we can do like a little 23 and maybe we can swap his mouth.

B (40:18)

Oh, we should, we should.

C (40:20)

Yeah. No, but, but, but, you know, you really can't say when, like, wokeness, you know, freaked out the public. You just know that it happened. Like it was this growing sort of building thing where, like, it's just one weird thing on top of another weird thing on top of another weird thing that, that builds and builds over time where all of us. And then at a certain point people just say, like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not on board for this. And then they, they, you know. Well, I think for backlash. I think what you think Swing in the opposite direction is this oscillating sort of thing that happens. Go ahead.

D (40:59)

No, I think what you said before really resonates that like, they took these issues that in and of themselves are important, like that people should have like, safe bathrooms to use or, you know, whatever, and they made those, like these huge issues that you did it too. Well, I still agree. I mean, I do think that everybody should have the bathroom that is safe for them to use. But I can also recognize for the vast majority of Americans, this is not like the main thing that they care about in their lives. I think that that's what people rejected. Right. That if they didn't make this huge production out of all of these things, then I think the pushback wouldn't have been so, so forceful. Right.

B (41:50)

I mean, the concept of first. The concept of first world problems really doesn't get enough attention. Like, really, at some point, the, the things that we turn into our major issues. Yeah, they really do. You really can't infer from them a certain level of prosperity in general because, you know, during the Depression, there's just no way an issue like that could rise to the top. People have too many important, more important things to worry about. And you know, it's, it's a, it's a problem of psychology to lose perspective. But in many ways we are, we. We have trouble keeping perspective on just how wonderful life is in America for huge numbers of people. You know, which is not to say that people are not struggling. Like, don't, don't. Don't get me wrong. But, but there's no way, especially in a party like the Democratic Party, that they could spend all their time focusing on these.

D (42:49)

Right.

B (42:50)

You know, when white people can't boutique issues. If the groundswell was, no, we need better wages, we need this, or we need health insurance.

D (43:01)

Right. Like, we can't afford like, cancer medication for our. Like those things are really important to all people.

B (43:12)

The problem is that all those things which are all real, they now all seem to be reduced to a small enough percentage of the population that they don't rise to become kitchen table issues anymore. There's not a critical mass of people anymore who are suffering these problems, which then we are responsible to be more attuned to these things because as their numbers diminish, we still need to look out for people who are suffering. You know, but somehow things in America are quite good.

A (43:46)

River, I guess you do you predict. So I guess you said you predict a backlash, but another possible result would be that these ideas filter into the mainstream. And I guess a third possibility is they remain on Twitter, which, as you just said at the beginning of the podcast, most Americans aren't on. And there it stays.

C (44:07)

So I don't think it ever stays on Twitter. Nothing has ever stayed on Twitter because all of the people who create culture are on there. And so that's how it becomes part of mainstream culture. And that's when you have a backlash. There wasn't a backlash against the massive cultural backlash against some of the more radical trans stuff, like trans kids, until it reached like a cultural mass where all of a sudden it was like, no, like, we're going to put like a trans child on tv. We're going to do, like, all this, we're going to do all that. And like, then all of a sudden people were like, this is weird. I don't like this. And then, like, that's how it happens. It's like it has to actually reach. In my opinion, like, the cultural culture is, like, cyclical and like, there's these massive oscillations that happen over time and they have to reach, like a critical mass. And then once they do, people in, like, inner mainstream culture, that's when people start to be sort of weirded out. And then things sort of like, start oscillating back the other way.

A (45:07)

But the difference is, the difference is I don't see filmmakers making movies that, that reflect these crazy conspiracy theories, racist ideology, etc, or, or, or maybe they, I mean, or, I mean, well, there.

B (45:27)

Is this conspiracy theory that Snow White wasn't actually white. Have you seen this? I, I, I, I.

D (45:35)

She Jewish?

B (45:36)

No. There's a new Snow White movie. Let me, let me just say.

C (45:39)

Or something.

B (45:39)

I, what's that?

C (45:41)

She's like Colombian, I think.

B (45:42)

I don't.

C (45:42)

Latina?

B (45:43)

Something like that. Yeah, she's Latina. Now listen, just for the record, I couldn't care less. Like, it's such a.

A (45:49)

Isn't Snow White a cartoon? I don't understand.

B (45:50)

There's a new live action movie, and the Snow White, I saw ads for it in the airport. The lead actress is clearly not white.

D (46:01)

So what? Who cares?

B (46:02)

What's, well, of course, so what? Who cares? Except that the name of the character is Snow White, as if she's nicknamed that because she's so white that, like, it's just, it's like trolling in a way. Like, I, I don't care because it's, I mean, who cares, right? If the movie's good, the movie's good. But there's something, it's like when they wanted to make James Bond black, it's like, okay, I don't really care, but we. James Bond's not. But James Bond is a particular character with a particular, you know, demographic profile. And Snow White is named. I mean, maybe I haven't read the fairy tale lately. Maybe there's some other reason that maybe her last name was White.

D (46:42)

I just think it's funny. Maybe they should be calling well, Steve.

A (46:44)

White the comedian is black.

B (46:46)

Yes. A lot of black people.

A (46:48)

But anyway, so, so, so I was. But getting back to that point, you, you. There was a backlash against Wokeism.

B (46:54)

It's like I just say, Dan, it's like I used to think they should remake Pinocchio and Pinocchio should say I want to be a real girl. Like just to troll everybody. Like Pinocchio is a, you know, presents as a male puppet but actually he's, he wants to be a real girl because he's trans. I dare you, I dare you to complain about that. Periel.

C (47:13)

Right?

B (47:13)

Why can't Pinocchio be trans or something? Why can't Snow White be Hispanic?

D (47:18)

I just like the idea that Snow White's name might be so white instead of.

B (47:22)

It's just silly.

C (47:23)

Well, what gives it like Snow Blanca or whatever? Yeah, no, like there was a, there was a backlash of that. Like the Daily Wire tried to make. I don't know if they're still making it. I don't know what the status is on that. But they were like, we're gonna. After it was announced that Rachel Zegler was going to be in this movie and that they weren't going to do the seven Dwarves. They were going to do like seven. I mean it was like a Woke movie. They were going to do like seven magical creatures. I don't know. They casted these people. They all look like crackheads. It's. It's really weird. You just have to look it up. But the Daily Wire was like, we're going to do an unwoke version. We're going to produce an entire feature length film which is like a different non work version woke version of the new live action Snow White movie from Disney that hasn't even come out yet. That's the level of reaction and counter reaction that we're living in now. And that's why I'm saying there's going to be a backlash because there's a backlash to everything. It's this thing that keeps going back and forth and back and forth.

A (48:19)

But for there to be a backlash, the monster that you talk about has to find its way into mainstream culture.

C (48:27)

I.

B (48:28)

Wait, stop, stop the press because I did a deep search, deep research on ChatGPT. Lenin's maternal grandfather was Alexander Dmitrievich Blanc. That means his. The father was named Dimitri, a physician in the Russian empire. Blanc was born with the Jewish surname Srul, Ms. Moisevic Blank in the early 1800s. In his youth, he converted from Judaism to Russian Orthodox faith around 1820. Adopted the name blah, blah, blah. He did this to access educational career opportunities. And Lenin was raised as a Christian, 100% Christian. But yeah, technically, if you, if you believe in the blood, Lenin has one quarter Jewish blood. Dan is correct. You are correct.

C (49:17)

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there you go. The way that. So the thing is, is like, I think people have like a really old idea of like what mainstream culture is. So like Joe Rogan is mainstream culture. Right. And he like just had a guy, he just had two guys on in the past, like two weeks who have said the guy who was talking to Tucker who was talking about Winston Churchill being, you know, the actual villain.

A (49:44)

Daryl Cooper.

C (49:45)

Daryl Cooper, yeah, he was on Tucker Turker also had a guy on who is like promoted the idea that Israel did 911. It's like the whole dancing Israelis.

B (49:59)

Who said that?

A (50:01)

Ian Carol.

C (50:02)

Was that Ian Carol?

B (50:04)

Yeah, he, he didn't say that on the Rogan show, did he? That he's. I don't think he said that.

C (50:10)

I think he, he, he believes that alluded to something about Israel in 911. But like, it's like other videos. He's like specifically talked about dancing Israelis.

B (50:17)

He said definitely that, that Jeffrey Epstein was a Israeli honeypot operation that controls world leaders.

C (50:24)

Right? Yeah. And like Theo Von, he had like, you know, Candace Owens on was like two weeks ago. I mean like, and the, these guys have bigger audiences than the average CNN broadcast or the average like network TV show or you know, whatever. So like this is mainstream culture and this is how like it enter, you know, the sort of like crazy far right stuff. There's mainstream culture. And I'm saying like Rogan's a Nazi. I don't, I don't think that.

B (50:51)

But no, I don't think, I don't think anybody thinks. Nobody thinks Rogan is a Nazi. Yeah, I mean, I know people who know him. I don't know him. And I, I would, you know, I'm sure he's not a Nazi or, or any, I mean that's an extreme. Or, or that he some kind of seething anti Semite. I think that Rogan believes these conspiracies. I mean, that's the Occam's razor explanation of what he's doing is that he is open to many conspiratorial ideas. I believe he. I hope I'm not getting this wrong. I believe at one time he was even open the idea that we hadn't landed on the moon and Mel Gibson.

A (51:35)

Was on saying that they found a cure for cancer, but they're keeping it under wraps. And he seemed to, he didn't push back on it. He seemed to sort of agree with that.

B (51:42)

Yeah, he's extremely open minded and he curates his show, obviously, and he believes that some of these theories are true. But that's not okay with me because when you are putting your stamp of kind of approval on historically very, very dangerous ideas and, and the people who you are presenting and creating obviously big followings for them, even if they limit their presentation on your show to the narrow confines of kind of a more innocuous or more believable. I mean, I know, I'm sure it's not true, but that Jeffrey Epstein was a massage plant. Well, like, even if that is somehow considered to be, you know, more believable as conspiracies go, you've created a fan base for these people and then they would. They get to present these much more dangerous ideas to their fan base. And I mean, it's very, very dangerous. It just is. It's filtering down to my kids. They're aware of it.

A (52:57)

But by predicting a backlash, that's sort of relatively good news. You're saying that most of America rejects this kind of stuff and is not going to be persuaded by it.

C (53:09)

Are you talking to me? Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. No, I think there will. I don't know when exactly will happen. I think it'll probably be a gradual thing, but I think it's just. There's going to be a point where it's not just like one thing that it's like, oh, it's like, yeah, that weird guy on Rogan, whatever. Like people can like, you know, I don't think that's enough to bother people. I think it's when it's one thing on top of another thing on top of another thing and then it becomes associated like pretty directly with the Republican Party. That's when you have like a real political problem in the way that like all the woke stuff became associated with the Democrats. Even though Joe Biden, like, was never, you know, he wasn't like aoc, Right. You know, he's Like a moderate, that they just became so associated with the Democrats that it took them down. I think that's going to happen for the Republicans because. And probably more quickly because, I mean, all the stuff that's happening on Twitter. Elon owns the site, and he's like, one of the most powerful people in the government now. And it's not as if he's, like, ignoring all this stuff he cited in the article. He react. He, like, fire emoji, quote, tweeted something calling Tom Hanks a pedophile. Like, that's like, a crazy thing to say, right? And that was like, the day before I wrote my article. I was like, I wasn't even looking for stuff. It just popped up on my timeline. He also, you know, they. A Wall Street Journal reporter found that one of the Doge employees had tweeted, you know, normalization hate, or sorry, Indian hate. Had said that, like, you couldn't pay me to marry outside my race. Said, like, I was racist before. It was cool, like, all of this, like, you know, racist stuff. And then they rehired him and J.D. vance went on TV and, like, was, like, scolding the journalists for, you know, reporting. They were like, you're trying to ruin a young man's life. I'm like, he's a government employee. Like, I don't know. Like, if you were working for the government, you. If you're old enough to work for the government and, like, make decisions that affect millions of people. Like, you're old enough to be named in a Wall Street Journal article.

B (55:31)

Of course. I mean, and he can certainly explain himself, and maybe, you know, he can explain himself. And we say, okay, he was a kid, but, you know, like. But yeah, of course, if you're representing the people, you shouldn't be associated with stuff like that. I was racist before. It was. It goes without saying people have lost their minds.

A (55:49)

Can we. Do you want to talk?

C (55:51)

And I think people start to lose touch of all these Republican politicians and, like, the Republican intelligentsia, the influencers and stuff, even the ones that aren't, like. And maybe would never be, like, super far right, like, you know, tweeting about, you know, Zionist occupied government at 3am the ones that would never be that type of thing. Like, you grow, you. You, like, build up a tolerance to that sort of thing where it doesn't really bother you anymore. And so then you become like, you know, yeah, I'm two degrees removed from some. Somebody who says, like, this crazy stuff. And, like, I don't even really think about it. I Mean, you know, Cash Patel, the director of the FBI, now, in between, like, his last job and, like, what he was doing now, he was going on, like, straight up, QAnon, like, real, actual, like, QAnon podcasts and being like, you know, I think Q had some good points. I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah, why are you even, like, talking about this? And I get.

B (56:52)

So I said we had to wrap it up, but there's part of me that says, well, good, because if. If these people are also associated with enough, like, prima facie nutty ideas, it does dilute the effect that maybe some of their. More. The. Some of the ideas that I'm more concerned about will have, you know, did.

A (57:11)

You want to discuss?

B (57:12)

Like, I'm kind of happy that Tucker Carlson talks about aliens and, you know, being mauled by demons, because then at least when he says that the Jews did this, the Jews did that, a certain number of people will say, ah, you know, I'm not really gonna take anything.

A (57:26)

You want to talk about Rogan, who recently sort of alluded to. Or didn't allude to it. He said that, well, if China can be Chinese, then why can't Poland be white? And Elon on Twitter said that that was a good question. I don't know if you want to.

B (57:40)

Yeah, I want to dive into that. I want to talk about two things, but I got to go. First of all, I want to say about that. I don't know if Rogan spoke carefully there, if by that, he meant that Chinese want. China wants to be Chinese and Poland wants to be Polish. I get that. I don't think. And Jews want to be Jewish. I think this is not hateful for people to love their own. The culture that's imprinted upon them through childhood. I think this is a part of being human, and it's almost ridiculous to pretend that that's hateful. If he meant white, then that's. That's more problematic. But I don't know that Poland wants to be white. I don't even know. So I, you know, I don't know. Like, the French want to be French. I mean, yeah, people want to be. Culture is real. Like, you know, like, anyway. Of course, the subtext also is that the polls are looking out upon Europe, and in a very practical way, which I think deserves even more respect, is, like, this is not working out for Italy and France and Germany and Sweden. Like, what do we need these problems for? What country would make the decision and say, yes, let's. Let's go in that direction and bring in a lot of migrants from all over. Look. Look how famously it works out. Because the ugly little secret is that the people you're bringing in don't want to be Polish either. That's really the problem, and that's that now America has been. Was for forever. The one exception to that were the people we brought in deeply did want to become American. And although there were bumps along the way, that did work. And it did work that people, Italians and Jews and Irish or whatever it is, who were fighting each other overseas, although they had, you know, certain resentments when they got here, they did somehow form. There was a melting pot and they formed a nationality in common. And that's real. I've been worried about whether or not that is still happening with. With modern immigration, based on things we hear said and American flags being burned. And, you know, very. Even today I heard some woman at Yale or something, I'm going to work to defeat America. While, you know, like, this is very disturbing, I don't know if it's fair to amplify these anecdotal stories into a. Into a trend. I've spoken to my own employees a lot about this. The answers were not comforting, actually, in terms of how they feel about America. But no one said, like, death to America. I mean, that's. That's number one. Number two is. I just want to say one more thing before we go, River. I'll tell you this. Dave Smith, we had a whole fight with Dave Smith, and he really fucking was mean to my friend Dan. And it's been bothering me now for days. And I feel like Dan should not have taken this lying down. You need to stand up for this because, you know, the fact is, Dan, if you were to wear a wire or if you were to send somebody out wearing a wire to speak to our peers, the comedian world, and ask them, what do you think about Natterman as a comedian? What do you think about Dave Smith as a comedian? I think you would be very happy with yourself in terms of what your peers would say about you behind your back. They'd say, natterman's crazy. He's on the spectrum, but you gotta give it to him. He's fucking funny. He's a great joke writer. Not one person would say anything negative about your. Your comedy. Not one. I just can't. I can't imagine it. I mean, I've spoken to people a million times about comedians in general. You are one of the most respected comic minds there is working in. In our industry. Yes, you May not be a household name, what can I tell you? But Dave created a tremendous glass house for himself on the issue that he chose to try to humiliate you on. And I think you should take a fucking sledgehammer and smash that glass to pieces.

A (62:08)

Well, it sounds like you're doing it for me.

B (62:11)

Well, I just wanna say because it really bothered me. It really bothered me you made a comment about him personally, but it was a personal comment based on issue, which was him personally issued. Why isn't Dave Smith criticizing other people? And Dan said, well, I think maybe he's audience capture, which is not the most horrible thing that anybody's ever said to each other. It's not like you didn't humiliate him. You didn't try to bully him. And then he, quote, tweets this ugly stuff about you being a failure or whatever it is to activate a cadre of bullies, fucking bullies, just to pile on, you know, and just stomp their heel all over you like you had it coming to you or something like that. This is this. This. This, you know, above the fray guy. What kind of fucking shit was that? And. And the. And the. And the. The assumption is, well, I mean, Dave would never do something like that if he were not, you know. You know, if it just like, not by acclamation of one of the best comedians in the country.

A (63:21)

Well, like I said, I think you did. You did. You know, you defended me far better than I could.

B (63:29)

It really bothers me.

A (63:30)

Well, thank you. Thank you for your vigorous defense.

B (63:33)

All right, we're gonna wrap it up. River, you're coming to New York at some point, right?

C (63:37)

I am, yeah.

B (63:38)

Well, you know, we're here in Greenwich Village, the heart of gay America, so I'm sure you'll find yourself down here at some point. And we'd love to. No offense. I don't know. I don't know what you can say anymore.

C (63:48)

No, no, we. We actually. We met one night.

B (63:50)

Oh, we met it. Yeah. Yeah, you do look familiar.

C (63:53)

The. The party that we had at the Cellar, and I was outside and I was smoking a cigarette. I gave a cigarette to Susie and you were, like, scolding her for smoking.

B (64:02)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm anti smoking and anti miscegenation. All right, well, very nice to see you again. I'm. I. I have, like, face blindness sometimes, but I look as. I think I know this guy. All right, so when you get back to New York, let's. Let's meet up and keep fighting the good fight. Thank you very much, River. I wish I had. I wish I had a name like yours. River Page. It was such a great name. All right, take it easy.

C (64:30)

All right. Thanks, man.

B (64:32)

And podcast@commissar.com. bye.