The Sam Harris Joe Rogan Dust-up, with Ami Kozak

Summary

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The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table

Episode: The Sam Harris Joe Rogan Dust-up, with Ami Kozak
Date: April 11, 2025

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Main Theme:

The episode centers on the recent public controversy between Sam Harris and Joe Rogan over the responsibility of influential podcast hosts in platforming controversial, fringe, or antisemitic figures—especially after October 7th and the ensuing rise in conspiratorial antisemitic rhetoric. The discussion dissects the fine line between defending free speech, exposing bad ideas, and the moral responsibility of high-profile hosts like Rogan and their guests. The hosts weigh how platforming conspiracy theorists and antisemitic voices contributes to the growing mainstreaming of such ideas.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter: Masculinity, Speech, and Impressions

• [00:10]–[06:00]
  • Periel and Noam reflect on speech inflection ("uptalk") and masculinity, riffing on the idea that certain speech patterns signal weakness or authority.
  • Ami Kozak discusses his background as an impressionist, performing Douglas Murray and others, and how voice or persona affects the perception of authority, particularly in politics.
  • Quote:
    Noam: "There's just certain things the opposite sex responds to... One of the things they have to respond to is masculinity. There's just no way that women don't naturally respond to masculinity." [03:17]

2. Israel, Antisemitism, and Ami's Online Presence

• [06:12]–[07:37]
  • Ami shares his background, including his viral debate with Candace Owens regarding Israel and the Jerusalem "Muslim Quarters" controversy.
  • The group touches on the difference between cultural communities and legal restrictions in Jerusalem.

3. Setting Up the Sam Harris vs. Joe Rogan Debate

• [07:44]–[13:35]

  • Noam brings up the "dust-up": Harris’ critique that Rogan and others are irresponsibly providing platforms for conspiracy theories and antisemitic voices.

  • Ami frames the current moment: post-October 7th, the “woke right” mirrors the “woke left” but is more explicit about Jewish scapegoating and conspiracy. Figures like Candace Owens, Jake Shields, and others are cited.

  • Harris, formerly a free speech purist, is now perceived as using ad hominem tactics against Rogan, mirroring what Harris himself once endured.

  • Quote:
    Ami: "Now we're at a point where post-October 7th, we're looking at where the chips have fallen..." [07:44]
    Ami: "The woke right does the same thing [as the left], same animating principles, but they just are more explicit about the antisemitic part where they blame the Jews." [10:12]

4. Free Speech vs. Consequential Harm

• [13:35]–[35:00]

  • Ami lays out the challenge: how to react proportionally to rising antisemitism—without under- or over-reacting.

  • Harris is accused of hypocrisy for demanding Rogan have "a million-dollar fact-checking staff" on hand, while Harris himself does not.

  • Discussion of a past Joe Rogan slip: "Jews are into money like Italians are into pizza," and how humor can carry real beliefs.

  • The vaccine debate: Sam Harris’ argument that Rogan irresponsibly platformed anti-vaccine guests, leading to real-world harm. Noam insists that the host bears responsibility for consequences.

  • Quote:
    Noam: "Every human is responsible to take into account the predictable outcomes of their behavior." [27:24]
    Ami: "Are we taking agency away from all these consumers that just gonna listen to this and..." [30:29]
    Noam: "If you put on a doctor who says polio is fake, people die if they believe that." [27:17]

5. Conspiracy Theory Platforming & The Marketplace of Ideas

• [35:00]–[49:00]

  • The group distinguishes between presenting debatable ideas and platforming Holocaust denial, antisemitic tropes, or outright falsehoods.

  • Ami emphasizes debate and ridicule as tools for handling pernicious claims, but Noam strongly critiques the normalization of conspiracy thinking—a process amplified by Rogan’s platform.

  • Quote:
    Noam: "We don't want to be the guy who contributes the bacteria that the sunlight has to now come in and fix, do we?" [34:01]
    Ami: "Satire, making fun of them, that's what I'd like to do." [35:32]
    Noam: "Here we are in 2025 America, and these antisemitic conspiracy theories are at a 90-year high." [35:20]

6. Distinguishing Between Guests: Shields, Carroll, Cooper, & Candace Owens

• [49:00]–[61:07]

  • Noam draws hard lines: having Jake Shields on is indefensible; Ami argues there are degrees—Daryl Cooper is more sophisticated, with entirely different impact compared to Shields, but Noam counters that they're all ultimately peddling similar antisemitic ideas.

  • Lengthy audio examples are referenced to illustrate how nefarious, coded, and denialist the conversations get—including discussions of Holocaust revisionism, "Jewish supremacy", and echoing Nazi rhetoric.

  • Quotes:
    Noam: "Jake Shields is a proud, unapologetic, Jew-hating, you know, antisemite." [52:27]
    Ami: "Ian Carroll was the moment where we go, oh God, there's real trouble in the water here." [60:15]

7. What Should Joe Rogan Do? Line-drawing and Responsibility

• [61:07]–[66:11]

  • Noam insists that all Rogan (or Dave Smith) would have to do is publicly repudiate the antisemitic ideas of their guests. Instead, there's often equivocation or even praise for the provocateurs.

  • The hosts role-play possible simple statements of disavowal and lament the unwillingness of major figures to adopt them.

  • Quotes:
    Noam: "All Joe Rogan would have to do is say, I think what Candace Owens is saying is disgusting." [85:21]
    Ami: "That would go a very long way." [85:24]

8. Tactics: Confrontation vs. Demanding Condemnation

• [66:11]–[90:53]

  • The divide emerges: Noam pushes a confrontational model—loud, explicit criticism is necessary, especially given the real-world effects of these ideas. Ami advocates tact and nuance, warning that demanding apologies or disavowals can be counterproductive and drive people away from condemnation.

  • The difference between contesting intent versus the objective impact of spreading antisemitic content is dissected.

  • Quote:
    Ami: "If you want to move somebody back to your side... I don't know if the way to do it is to cast aspersions and rush to judgment." [74:52]
    Noam: "Intent is very much important when it comes to punishment. Intent is not so important when it comes to results." [98:11]

9. The Unprovability of Conspiracies and the Challenge for "Better Ideas"

• [90:53]–[104:04]

  • Noam asserts that "better ideas" can’t combat wild conspiracies (e.g., blood libel or “Jews control everything”) because they’re designed to be irrefutable.

  • He draws an analogy to Tylenol poisoning: public health dangers don't care about intent.

  • Quote:
    Noam: "I cannot prove that Christian babies are not disappearing on Passover." [91:40]
    Ami: "Rather than gathering data and being curious... what they are doing is drawing conclusions and then gathering data and evidence to support it." [91:53]

10. Responsibility at Scale: Platforming, Power, and Podcasting

• [104:04]–[107:00]

  • The episode's throughline: A host with Rogan’s audience has “great power” and thus great responsibility.

  • There’s a difference between inviting challenging guests and failing to challenge obviously false or hateful rhetoric.

  • The “casual schmooze” podcast format is both a blessing and a curse given its influence.

  • Quote:
    Noam: "With great power comes great responsibility..." [104:04]

11. Reflecting on Strategy, Jewish Survival, and the Israeli Narrative

• [113:08]–[121:56]
  • Discussion shifts to the Jewish experience of survival, how the Israeli government has failed in messaging (explaining their peace offers, war rationale, etc.), and the need for smarter advocacy.
  • Noam claims the post-October 7th focus on atrocity porn failed while the crucial points of the Israeli narrative got lost.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Noam: "Sunlight is the best disinfectant, is not an overnight process." [32:55]
• Ami: "Ridicule, satire, making fun of them is... what I'd like to do." [35:32]
• Noam: "If you're trafficking in these ideas or lending comfort and imprimatur... you are lining up with evil in this world." [74:04]
• Ami: "It's a sad state of affairs that we have to... prove you're not the bad guy." [87:10]
• Noam: "We lost the argument... Every man, woman, and child should know the five bullet points of the Israeli position by heart. They don't know any of them." [119:24]
• On the role of major platforms:
  Noam: "If Joe Rogan's show becomes a conduit for these poison pills, then we have to react to the poison, not to the intention." [99:38]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction, masculinity & voice: [00:00]–[06:00]
• Ami's background & Israel debate: [06:12]–[07:37]
• "Woke right", antisemitism, Sam Harris vs. Rogan: [07:44]–[13:35]
• Responsibility in media, free speech, and conspiracies: [13:35]–[35:00]
• Distinguishing fringe from debate, the role of platforming: [35:00]–[49:00]
• The "movable middle" and the effect of platforming: [49:00]–[61:07]
• What should Rogan (or any large host) do? [61:07]–[66:11]
• Tone, tactics, and strategy disagreements: [66:11]–[90:53]
• The futility of debating conspiracy theories: [90:53]–[104:04]
• The host's responsibility at scale: [104:04]–[107:00]
• Israeli messaging failures & Jewish survival: [113:08]–[121:56]

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Episode Summary in a Nutshell

This episode is a rigorous, passionate, and at times personal debate about whether—and how—high-profile podcasters like Joe Rogan should temper their "just asking questions" style when the subjects are Holocaust denial, blood libel, and other antisemitic conspiracies. Sam Harris is defended as calling for responsibility, not censorship; Ami wavers between “debate them, ridicule them” and not overreacting or fueling manufactured outrage cycles, while Noam is adamant that history shows hands-off approaches won’t stop hate. The ultimate through line is the demand for clarity and accountability: You have free speech, but don't hide behind ambiguity if you’re amplifying bigotry. The stakes, both agree, are much higher than the usual “left vs. right” podcast drama.

Transcript

[Periel]

Welcome to Live from the Table, the official podcast for the world famous comedy seller. I am here with Noam Dwarman, the owner of the comedy seller.

[Noam Dwarman]

Hello. Hello.

[Periel]

We have a very special. I'm Periel and we are here with a very special guest today. Ami Kozak, musician, comedian, impressionist. His podcast is called Ami's House. He has a band called Distant Cousins.

[Ami Kozak]

First of all, thanks for having me. It's great to be here and I'm very happy.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm very happy to have you here. I just want to say that I, I just asked Chachi pt during Peril's introduction, what do you call a vocal inflection which goes up at the end of a sentence? Anything. This is possible. ChatGPT actually made an anti Semitic comment that I'm not going to repeat, but then it said it's called a rising intonation. More specifically, when it's used in statements like me, it's often referred to as up talk or upset speak.

[Periel]

Oh, that's a good title for something.

[Noam Dwarman]

Up top.

[Ami Kozak]

Seeing all these gurus around giving coaching on how to, like, you know, be assertive and make sure your words land and are affirmative and are assertive, that they land down instead of up. If you want to be super agreeable or strong and assertive.

[Noam Dwarman]

Absolutely. But you know what? Any masculine person knows that without being taught. I, I actually believe that it is.

[Periel]

Do you want me to be more masculine?

[Noam Dwarman]

For a woman? It's okay when a man does it. I like Ezra Klein.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes. I mean, we all know this, right? I mean, and this is what's interesting, right? Everything is. And with Democrats, what they're really seriously good at is policy. But it gets too caught in the technicals of policy. You're totally right.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay, now listen with the policy. I don't think he has a lisp.

[Ami Kozak]

No, there's something there.

[Noam Dwarman]

But he has a vocal fry. Can you do the fry? I didn't, I didn't mean to put you through your paces a little bit there.

[Ami Kozak]

I, I don't have. I, I, it's this.

[Noam Dwarman]

If you can get an Ezra Klein invitation together, I got to. And God bless the guy. Like, he's actually a force for good right now in politics because he's, he's kind of pouring cold water and, and giving the Democrats a slap across the face with the. Thanks, I needed that skin bracer. But I can't listen to him. I can't listen to more than five minutes of the guy because, say that. Because say that.

[Periel]

That's if he's saying Good things.

[Noam Dwarman]

Then it's. It's my shortcoming.

[Ami Kozak]

A pet peeve. If the, if the, if the intonation goes up, it's just. He's triggered.

[Noam Dwarman]

It's a. It is a. It is a visceral reaction I have to my voice.

[Periel]

To the sounds of my voice.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, to. To. To it. Well, actually, when I. When I hear Ezra Klein, I just picture you. No. And I. And I know this is wrong. And I know people. This is actually. This is probably the most like, bigoted thing you've ever heard me say on this podcast. I know it's wrong. I. I know that it's wrong. I'm. I'm actually confessing to a shortcoming. I'm confessing to a foible. But I'm saying that I do have that reaction. I don't know where it comes from.

[Ami Kozak]

This is the problem with modern day masculinity. Because.

[Noam Dwarman]

Don't list, because that sounds like you're making fun of gays. No, no, I'm not making fun of.

[Ami Kozak]

There's an impediment, a wide tongue thing happening where. What's the problem is that what Republican establishment has reinforced in a lot of modern men is an aversion to a voice that goes up at the end. And it's a problem now.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't. But to go deeper with it because I do believe in. You know, just like in the animal kingdom, there's. There's the mating dance and there's just certain things that no matter what you want to say, the opposite sex responds to. And one of the things obviously they have to respond to is masculinity. They have to. There's just no way that women don't naturally respond to masculinity. And they've got this generation of beta or gamma males. And Periel, as a. As a woman with a libido, don't you find it like weird when a man takes on a metrosexual, or if you want to call it.

[Periel]

I mean, I think that you want.

[Noam Dwarman]

A man to be a man.

[Periel]

I think that different people are attracted.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm asking you.

[Periel]

And things. Me personally, I like a pretty masculine guy. Me personally, but I'm also.

[Noam Dwarman]

Who doesn't.

[Periel]

A lot of people. I'm also not like a super delicate woman either. Like, I'm a little bit like trashy masculine.

[Ami Kozak]

There's always, though the exception is like the, like Prince Michael Jackson effeminate, confident, suave sort of thing that women go crazy for.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, no, explain it. Michael Jackson women did not go Prince crazy.

[Periel]

For children.

[Noam Dwarman]

Prince vice versa.

[Ami Kozak]

But.

[Noam Dwarman]

But Princess. Yes, but Prince. That was not actually what we're describing here.

[Ami Kozak]

He's androgynous.

[Noam Dwarman]

Prince is androgynous. But Prince had a seething sexuality about him.

[Periel]

He was also. I mean, you can't. That's not a good example because he was like a genius musician and a celebrity of like.

[Noam Dwarman]

But Prince was like a porn movie. Yeah. Prince exuded sex.

[Periel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Ezra Klein is a close second.

[Periel]

I think that people. I'm sorry.

[Ami Kozak]

Purple Rain.

[Noam Dwarman]

I didn't even know that.

[Ami Kozak]

Purple Rain.

[Noam Dwarman]

Friends in common. I'm sorry. I feel terrible.

[Ami Kozak]

Purple Rain.

[Noam Dwarman]

By the way, I saw your. Your Douglas Murray imitation. It was so good. Was he Douglas Murray, ordering breakfast or something like that?

[Ami Kozak]

Yes. Well, no, I was very hungry. You know, you do enough podcasts and you get on Lex Fridman and you talk about the fall of the west and you talk about democracies and death cults. It works up quite an appetite. I'm not so public about my food choices and preferences, but when you're hungry and you've got nothing but a diner in the middle of Austin, Texas, you what you can. So. Yes. Well, you do.

[Noam Dwarman]

He's got a little bit of Robert Shaw telling the story in Jaws. Shark's eyes.

[Ami Kozak]

The shark's eyes. He could do it. He could do a Jaws remake. Right. When you're looking at the eyes of the sharks and many different men went into the water and they realized the sharks were part of ISIS anyway. Radical great whites. And that's a problem. They're no longer whites. They're from a different part of the world.

[Noam Dwarman]

So.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, very good. And I'm not even sure. How do we know. How do we know you from Twitter? Like, how do I.

[Ami Kozak]

You know, the world of. The Internet's an interesting place. You have what they call IRL in real life. And then there's so much cross section now where everybody's familiar, even with people they don't actually meet or know in person. So I think, you know, we've both, you know, crossed paths with different figures in this space in the last 18 months. You know, talking about Israel, anti Semitism, and just. I've.

[Noam Dwarman]

I've changed my mind in Israel, by the way.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm anti.

[Ami Kozak]

Okay, good, good. Let's start there. I mean, I debated Candace Owens. I'm the comedian who debated Candace Owens. The famous Muslim quarters clip. That's maybe where you first saw me. That one got around a bit.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

So when I'm walking through Jerusalem and You see, and they say these are the Muslim quarters. This is where the Muslims are allowed to live. That doesn't feel like a bastion of freedom to me. So I guess.

[Ami Kozak]

Oh, I don't think it's where they're allowed to live in Jerusalem. I think it's that there's an Armenian quarter. It's not saying the Armenians can only live here. It's that there are communities just like there's a Jewish community in, in Jersey here and there's a Muslim community in here. I don't think, you know, to my understanding, it's not restrictions within Israel proper. Israeli.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

I think it is where they have. I mean, at least that's what the rabbi who was taking me around, he said, these are the Muslim quarters. So this is where the Muslims.

[Ami Kozak]

Or she called it the Muslim quarters, not the Muslim quarter.

[Noam Dwarman]

And she thought, she thought it meant like it was like a living quarters holding pen.

[Ami Kozak]

So it was a revealing moment in a lot of ways. And we can talk about that.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'll tell you what I do want to talk about. Yeah, yeah. Are you following the latest dust up between Sam Harris and Joe Rogan?

[Ami Kozak]

Yes, I am. That and Dave Smith making the rounds and all that kind of stuff, I find is an interesting place where it's sort of like now we're at a point where post October 7th, we're looking at where the chips have fallen with these competing narratives. And there's sort of this like, you know, there's the far left, the far right and the movable middle. And we're all kind of competing for that. If we're talking about messaging and getting the word out of what the truth of the matter is there's a movable middle. And I think people confuse, casting aspersions on what they mean.

[Noam Dwarman]

Like a detriment.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah. What they mean for the extremities of these movements versus the movable middle. Sometimes they use the wrong aspersions and cast them at the movable middle, which is self defeating. And there's a lot to discuss in the woke left, the ascendant, woke right that I've been concerned about. And I think we've crossed paths in discussing some of those things.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay, let's talk about this. By the way, just Tiana, take down that thing until we're ready to show it. I want to give away the, the prize.

[Periel]

It's called Bury the lead.

[Noam Dwarman]

L, E, D E. I know how to spell it. There was a guy, Nathan Robinson, you know, this far left guy and I, of course, we all make these mistakes. I just remember because he's so, he's so arrogant and nasty and he accused somebody of bearing the lead and he spelled it L, E A D. And I was like, ah, you know, and I, and I, and I. And I didn't correct him because I don't. I know that's such a. If you do that, it's bad karma. Someone's going to catch you doing the same dumb mistake. But you think he would have known anyway. But the worst time to misspell bury the lead is when you're accusing somebody. So anyway, so the, yeah, the, the, the ascended. Listen, I, you may not read it right now, but I've been in a very, very dark place the last 48 hours about this. I actually spent a lot of the night last night watching Ian Carroll videos and, and it was, I couldn't wait to go watch Ezra Klein after this. It really made me feel sick to my stomach. This was because I was watching it because of the. Sam Harrison, do you think you can give a good encapsulation for the viewers what's going on, what Sam Harris said?

[Ami Kozak]

Yes, well, you basically have. Most recently you're seeing the elements of what we call the woke, right, this sort of new ascendant, some of it very unapologetically anti Semitic commentary happening on Twitter.

[Noam Dwarman]

Now who coined that term? Was it Constantine witnessing?

[Ami Kozak]

I think it was Lindsay James.

[Noam Dwarman]

Lindsay.

[Ami Kozak]

James Lindsay who did coin the term and then people like Constantine also popularized it. Some people thought it was just some trollish slander, trollish insult to, you know, to use on people who hate the woke left, but are now emerging at these, as these America first woke right people and figures. Jake Shields, Jackson Hinkle, Candace Owens is kind of in that category too, where it really is positioned as very similar to woke left in the sense that while woke left has very simple diagnoses for all the world's problems, they blame the patriarchy or radical feminism, Zionism, capitalism. The woke right does the same thing, same animating principles, but they just are more explicit about the anti Semitic part where they blame the Jews and by extension everything the Jews control capitalism. They brought in radical feminism. Every bad leftist idea is suddenly Jewish. So it all kind of is rooted in a lot of anti Semitism, but it's not animated by values and virtue and principles. It's tribal, it's the same. And so I don't. That's, that's why it's woke and it's just now on the right and it's really troubling. What's been going on now is that some of these ideas for a long time I thought to myself, they can be ignored. You know, if Candace wants to descend into the deep dark corners of the Internet, let her do it. And as long as it's in these Twitter spaces with some of the world's worst vicious anti Semites where they can shoot the shit and kibbutz about how much Jews are to blame for everything, fine, let them do it. That's a Twitter spaces. You know, we can ignore it, but once it starts to reach these mainstream platforms and you see Candace now on Theo Vaughn or Ian Carroll on Rogan, and even the Daryl Cooper episode, which I think is a little bit different, which we can talk about, but you start to see these things becoming a little more mainstream. You know, you go between these two different. Two different corners where we want to be able to discuss difficult ideas, even offensive ideas. But also, Jordan Peterson says things get bad one small step at a time. Gradually, all of a sudden, you find yourself in a space where think about the things you can say about Jews now that you couldn't say five years ago, not because of cancel culture, but because of basic decency. All of a sudden you find yourself in this place where the Overton window has moved so much, it's so desensitized. Kanye west is just wearing swastikas with very little conseque. And that was very concerning. Now, there's a. There's different ways to react to this. There's the overreactions that you saw pre October 7th from, I think Jews on the progressive left, where they threw the term at everything to the point where it loses its anti Semitism at every. Everybody who misspoke, everybody who was ignorant, everybody who was curious. It's like anti Semitism, anti Semitism, one size fits all. When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail, right? And that was the tool. And then it loses all its cultural power, and that's the overreaction. And then there's the. What I see now is the underreaction, the lack of reaction, the apologetics pretending it's not there. That's wrong too, to be discerning. You should react. I'm reacting to it. Not over, not under, but actually reacting. And you have. In order to have credibility and integrity in this space, you have to react to what you're seeing in front of you. The way Sam Harris is approaching it, I think is misguided because, you know, for years, Sam Harris used to go off on Glenn Greenwald and all these people who misrepresented his views on Islam the way Ben Affleck would portray him on Bill Maher about Islam, completely misrepresenting him or using ad hominem attacks. But then he's using those very same tactics on people who are having conversations he's not comfortable with.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't think he's doing that, but I'll let you.

[Ami Kozak]

Okay. But when he says Joe Rogan can have two journalists there with him at all times and pay them each a million dollars, I'm like, Joe, he could. You could. On your. And not you, Sam. You could have it on your podcast, too. You don't do that. You don't feel you need to do that. It just. To me, it rings as like, when you're met with ideas you disagree with or conversations you don't like to be. To insult and call people names or to dismiss it and say it's beneath and say it's just causing harm rather than tackle the ideas.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm surprised to hear you say that stuff.

[Ami Kozak]

Well, then I think I'm for Gad Saad's response to Sam Harris, where he came out and he said, you know, like, I've been an advocate for all the same causes that I've been an advocate for, and very pro Jewish, very pro Israel. But he said, you know, if there's things on Twitter I don't like and there are people coming at me, I don't. My instinct is not to go to Elon Musk and complain. I ignore these people. I don't engage with them, but I don't call for them to be arrested or canceled or things like that. So I get the argument on free speech absolutism that Gadsad is talking about, but just that Sam Harris is very consequentialist about it, that we can have free speech as long as it doesn't lead to this or this or this.

[Noam Dwarman]

He didn't. Well, I don't think he said that at all.

[Ami Kozak]

And I think in his response, he said. He said. From my understanding, he just said that the conversations Joe Rogan's had. Joe Rogan is having is irresponsible. It's leading to real bad consequences in our society. And what therefore, I don't know, like, he shouldn't have them or he should have journalists on to regulate his conversations.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, he said. I think he meant you should have a staff. So let me tell you where I come from.

[Ami Kozak]

So I just thought, whatever you think about his position to the general public, it looks wildly hypocritical and inconsistent well.

[Noam Dwarman]

The general public, it thinks it's hypocritical because it's being. It's being spun that way.

[Ami Kozak]

And I think he could do a better job actually combating what's being said. And that's more effective to the movable middle than calling Dave a misinformation artist. And I don't think Dave should respond by calling him a fucking clown either. I get. I think both are defeat are self defeating.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, this is hard for me because, you know, obviously this is. This is surrounds the comedy community and I don't want to make enemies. So I guess we should start by saying I don't know Joe Rogan, but everybody who knows him likes him. And even Sam Harris was very clear about not wanting to call him an anti Semite or Sam kind of accused him of unwittingly participating in this deleterious process. So to the extent that it's possible to talk about this without being read as accusing him of being anti Semitic, I would like to try to do that because I'd be shocked if he were anti Semitic. I think with him, you know, the Occam's razor is if you have a guy who just a couple weeks ago was trying to explain why the moon landing was probably fake, you have a guy who believes. Well, I think what most people consider is like the really far end of the curve of conspiracy theories. The most outlandish conspiracies there are. He's open to them at least, if he doesn't. So why wouldn't he believe five different conspiracies about the Jews? Right. So you don't have to be an anti Semite, if that. But unfortunately, conspiracy theorists always find themselves in the end embracing anti Semitic ideas. But so anyway, the first time this came to my attention was way back when there was a conversation with that woman. Crystal Ball. Was that her name? Yeah, was on the Rogan show and they were discussing Ilhan Omar, who had said. Well, she said a couple things. She had said about how the Jews are hypnotizing the world. But I think the particular comment they were discussing was that it's all about the Benjamin right? Now, Omar had meant that Israel was controlling the government with money. And Sam and Crystal Ball, you know, was defending Ilhan Omar. And Sam Harris said, and got attention. He says, come on, that's not anti Semitic. Everybody knows Jews are into money like Italians are into pizza.

[Ami Kozak]

I mean, Joe Rogan said this.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah. Not Sam Harris. Yeah, everybody knows that Joe. Joe Rogan said everybody knows that Jews are into money like Italians are in to pizza. And I was like, you know, first of all, Ilhan Omar's remark wasn't about Jews being into money. She was about Jews using money, buying influence, which is not the stereotype of the Jews, you know, disturmer, like you know, the money grubbing Jews. So and then every. He's just kidding. He's just kidding. And it's true in the comedy world, me, we make jokes like that all the time. Of course, but if you gave me sodium pentothal, I would have had to say at the time, yes, but he wasn't really making a joke, he was making a point. Yeah, like he could have said, everybody knows Jews are into money like priests are into little boys. You know, the point is that, I mean, humor can be humor and humor can also be a tool to make a very serious point that you mean 100%.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I felt at the time I said, does he actually mean that? But you know what? All right, whatever. Somebody thinks Jews are into money, you know, I, I, I, I, I could.

[Ami Kozak]

But I think, yeah, so that, that's.

[Noam Dwarman]

Just, that was, and then, you know, it, it, and then actually Eric Weinstein, I think actually did tweak Joe a little bit about that on the show. I think he did. I'm not 100% sure, but you know, that, that was certainly nothing to base an opinion on. But then as you, just as you were. I became alarmed in the last, you know. Well then, and then actually during the vaccine stuff, and this is where it gets the worst Sam Harris point. During the vaccine time, Rogan was bringing on people who were saying that the vaccine didn't work. Now that's where Sam Harris is saying this is irresponsible because unless you're 100% sure this vaccine is not gonna save lives, X number of people are gonna take your word for this. They're not gonna get vaccinated and they're going to die. And actually we do know that in states where they had less vaccine uptake, they had higher rates of death. I don't think there's anybody serious who doesn't understand that the vaccine does save lives. If you're in a certain cohort of people who are vulnerable to Covid. Yes, they might have been right. That healthy 25 year old peoples didn't need, didn't need to be taking it. But anyway, so that, so that I'm.

[Ami Kozak]

Not sure if history right now favors that Sam Harris position though. Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

I mean, I think, I think no, this is, this is the problem. I Don't think there is even 0.1% argument by anybody credible that a 60 year old should not be taking the vaccine.

[Ami Kozak]

Right, but that wasn't the argument being made then. The argument being made then was everyone should take the vaccine and if you had questions of discernment, you were risking.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, that was one of the arguments being made.

[Ami Kozak]

The culture. The culture.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, but one of the other arguments that Rogan just said a couple weeks ago to take a totally ineffective experimental vaccine. And then he had on Dr. Malone, who was a quack, who said at the time, I noted that part of the reason we don't know what's going on with the vaccine is because Israel made a deal with Pfizer to suppress any information of bad vaccine outcomes. And he called it Fizzreal. That's, you know, I noted it. You know, and then the deluge came with Candace Owens and Jake Shields and Dan Bilzeri.

[Ami Kozak]

He also had Sanjay Gupta on to try to make the point and he just botched it. So, yeah, yeah, he had Gupta on. He said, let's make your case.

[Noam Dwarman]

And all good.

[Ami Kozak]

And all Gupta said was, take a vaccine. Joe, please, I'm here to get you to take a vaccine.

[Noam Dwarman]

Gupta was terrible and he was terrible.

[Ami Kozak]

So I just, just in defense of that whole conversation. But you're saying what was troubling was that moment when he brought up Fizzrail?

[Noam Dwarman]

No, I think, I think bringing Gupta on is exactly what Sam Harris was calling for.

[Ami Kozak]

And he did.

[Noam Dwarman]

Right. But, but it's, it's notable because you can remember it so clearly. It's not the normal process. Right. And then, so anyway, so then this is just like, you know, biting at Joe's heels around the edges. Little kind of criticisms I had of what was going on. It wasn't like any huge matter and I would forget about it shortly. But then what's happened now is, as you said, there's. You have people like Candace Owens saying things like, every year at Passover, Christian babies disappear, their bodies are found. The Jews are doing this Frankist. Frank is Jewish, very clever. Frank is called hiding behind Jews doing to this very day. But in Israel, which was established as a haven for people.

[Ami Kozak]

Israel, she pronounces it Israel.

[Noam Dwarman]

So now and then you have this guy like Ian Carroll saying things about the Talmud allows rape and that, you know, Jewish mobsters can control the country. And Epstein, Epstein is a stain on the Jews because Jewish billionaires control everything.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Jeffrey Epstein is the perfect example of this. Jeffrey Epstein was the world's most prolific and evil sex trafficker that we know of so far ever. And he very clearly was a Jewish organization of Jewish people working on behalf of Israel and other groups. And so that's a dark stain on Israel and on the Jewish people if you own it.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I know what all Jews did 9 11, which of course, you know, not every conspiracy is easily debunked. But we all should remember that it wasn't that long ago that Bin Laden's letter went viral where bin Laden took responsibility for 9 11. So you gotta, you know, work that out.

[Ami Kozak]

Of course, Ian Carlson says, I'm not saying all Jewish people, but you have to own Epstein. All Jewish people in the same sentence.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, they all say something like, not all Jewish people, my Jewish friends. I'm only doing this for the Jews. The Jews would be so much better. I want what's best for the Jews. It's a total tick.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

And at that point you would think that Rogan would cordon himself off from people that are what I would have thought were indefensible. Just like when there was a famous comedian years ago who got caught on tape, you know, saying horrible anti black things. I removed that person from my orbit. I didn't want to go on his network anymore. I just, you know, you have to have limits. So. And then also, and Sam kind of, you know, mixed the two issues also. You have just last week Rogan had on the air a doctor who said that polio is not real. Now again. And I think that's what, what Sam is saying is like, listen, if you're going to go on super spreading the idea that polio is not real, you need to have some people on staff to say, yes, Joe, we check this out. You're on strong ground here. Now, Sam Harris may feel that he's capable of doing that himself on scientific matters, or he may actually, I'm sure he does actually consult people, you know, but he also doesn't have a steady diet of bringing on, for lack of a better word, fringe opinions about medicine and things like this. So that's where we're at. And I don't think Sam at all meant to say that you shouldn't be having these conversations with people. He's saying, if you're going to be a super spreader of very, very radioactive ideas, unless you're sure. In other words, there's two ways to look at it. You can say, well, Joe, I assume you believe this, you know, you're standing behind it. Or if you're saying you're just having conversation, well, okay, Then, you know, check out some of this stuff before you say, well, let me just. Let me just limit it to this one thing. What do you think about having a doctor on. You're the biggest show in the world, and without any challenge, let the doctor display or, you know, promulgate her view that nobody has to be afraid of polio. It's not a real disease. How would you criticize that without. Without the ant, you know, the. The crazy right wing people say you don't believe in free speech.

[Ami Kozak]

You're asking me?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Ami Kozak]

Like, how would you criticize that person?

[Noam Dwarman]

Would you criticize someone for bringing on a doctor in the biggest show in the world that says polio is fake?

[Ami Kozak]

Well, here's the thing. I just think it's a little bit of a strange position to take to say, here's what you should do, Joe, rather than, I have a big podcast too. I'll have somebody on, we'll unpack that, and this will be my contribution. Or I'll go on the show and confront why I had issues with those things. Because unless someone's. I think if someone's not in good faith, if someone's hateful, if someone's bigoted and anti Semitic, proudly, like, I'm discerning, to say that person's not engageable and worth platforming or engaging with, and to do so and not push back is pretty irresponsible.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm shocked to hear you say that.

[Ami Kozak]

Why is that?

[Noam Dwarman]

Because people are gonna die if they think polio's not real and it's not true.

[Ami Kozak]

Right. Well, let's just rewind a little bit.

[Noam Dwarman]

Cause, I mean, every human is responsible to take into account the predictable outcomes of their behavior.

[Ami Kozak]

I think we're a little too preoccupied on trying to prove, like, who's hateful or harmful versus I don't say anything about hateful. No. Or versus who is. Or wrong or what's true. Like, let's prove what's true versus what's hateful. And a lot of the times, in terms of Joe and noticing a pattern or whatever, like, to me, it's kind of absurd to think that, like, Joe Rogan is in any way anti Semitic.

[Noam Dwarman]

Like, we talk about polio. That's why.

[Ami Kozak]

No, no. But in all those cases where he mentioned the joke and all that kind of stuff, I think it's like, but let's, let's stick.

[Noam Dwarman]

Let's stick to the polio.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

Because I think that. Let's, let's. Let's get past that.

[Ami Kozak]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

And then we can get to the anti Semitic cases, which are. Which are harder.

[Ami Kozak]

Okay, well, I think in terms of. We're attributing where things stand right now, like the medical establishment in general, in terms of. Post Covid does have a lot to account for with the lack of trust in the medical apparatus. Post Covid, when they told everyone, you have to stay home or you're going to kill grandma, and then the BLM riots go out and everyone's out and about, and they don't say anything about it. Like, you have to own the fact that in that time, people lost a lot of trust and faith in the medical establishment that got it wrong.

[Noam Dwarman]

I spoke about that on my show for two years before anyone was talking about it.

[Ami Kozak]

So for Joe now to be curious, as he's always, always been, about alternative ideas, which has always been the nature of his show, to be curious about different kinds of opinions, opinions that go against the grain, right or wrong, his ability to engage in those conversations, like, what do you want to say? I'm not saying it should be without scrutiny or pushback. I would if I were Sam Harris, rather than just saying he's just doing a lot of damage. Like, if he has what to say, go on, Joe and explain it. Have a guest on and counter it. He's got a platform, too. So I don't know, like, what are you saying? Restrict the speech and not say he. Like. I'm just saying, what's the alternative to bad ideas?

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm saying that if you're going to. It's funny, I always felt this way. I mean, Mike Huckabee was hawking some. I don't remember what it was. And I'm like, how dare you? Listen, I mean, we always have looked down our noses at anybody hawking supplements. What did the. The. The, you know, the. The. The people in the carts that used to go around from. From town to town, the hucksters that would sell elixirs. Did we not think that people selling elixirs were engaged in some sort of morally questionable behavior? This is a cousin to selling elixirs. Unless and less in good faith, you say, no, you know, I looked into this. No, I think this is legit. In which case you could be wrong. But then I said, but if you're just gonna say this is kind of titillating, Polio's not real and the vaccine doesn't help anybody, and drink this. And I heard that Laetril cures cancer. Let's have an episode where somebody says, you know what? You know how to cure your Cancer. Stop with that conventional medicine. Just take peach pit extract.

[Ami Kozak]

Are we taking agency away from all these consumers that are just gonna listen.

[Noam Dwarman]

To this and then that's a different matter. I'm not taking agency away from anybody. I'm saying, realistically, if I put somebody on this show that says, stop with your chemotherapy, stop with your cancer, Medicaid, just take this peach pit extract. People say, nom. Did you look into this? What do people take you seriously?

[Ami Kozak]

But they have a right to say.

[Noam Dwarman]

Everybody has a right.

[Ami Kozak]

It's my body, it's my treatment. I'm not gonna. I'm not saying you're telling them what to do, but we can also have a little faith in people to say, hmm, that was an interesting episode. I'd like to hear alternative opinions or whatever. And they're not just gonna go and.

[Noam Dwarman]

Not take a polio, but we know they go and not take the vaccines because we saw in the red states. Yeah, they don't take the vaccine of Harfuer. Take the vaccine.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

And more die.

[Ami Kozak]

I would say also that the people pushing for the vaccine on that side should have allowed for a little more discernment and nuance to say, if you're really, really old, take the vaccine. If you're younger, they wouldn't do that.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes, the person.

[Ami Kozak]

So you're responding also. Joe Rogan, in a sense, in those conversations, is reacting to a reality where there's been an immense erosion of trust in the medical establishment.

[Noam Dwarman]

You answered, he's not at all for that. The guy selling the elixir.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Is not at fault. It's just the idiots who bought it from him.

[Ami Kozak]

Well, if you're being intentionally deceptive and then selling somebody something under false pretenses, you're committing fraud. Are you saying Joe is committing fraud by talking to somebody with an alternative point of view on polio?

[Noam Dwarman]

No, I said that it's a close cousin of that. Because this is what Sam is saying is that if you know that the person taking the elixir or the person simply following the medical advice of the guest that you're putting on your show, if you know the outcome is the same. And, you know, maybe I'm just saying it was Sam saying, check into it, like you're not telling somebody about hair dye, that you're talking about very consequential matters, and consequential matters have to be treated with respect.

[Ami Kozak]

But I'm surprised on your position because it seems from on Twitter and stuff that assuming good faith here, the solution to bad ideas is better ideas. Bad speech is good speech. Sunlight's the best disinfectant. Do you not subscribe to those principles or.

[Noam Dwarman]

Of course I do, but the whole point.

[Ami Kozak]

So Sam shouldn't just say, oh, this is just bad and harmful. He should put some sunlight on it.

[Noam Dwarman]

Sunlight. I'm sure he will, and others have already. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, is not an overnight process. Listen, this is what I said. We all know the ACLU used to that. I defend the Nazis right to speak.

[Ami Kozak]

Skokie.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, we defend the Nazis right to speak, to deny the Holocaust, and we know that sunlight is the best disinfectant for that. That is not an argument to defend the person who's out there denying the Holocaust.

[Ami Kozak]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

And. Or nor is it an argument for the person to present the person who denies the person who denies the Holocaust. Unless that's the point. You want to contribute to society now, you can have a debate, have someone on to debate the person who wants to deny the Holocaust. You know, if it's, if it's a matter, if you think you will, if you think you are, if you want exposing something, if you want to be the sunlight and the disinfectant, which is what you would think. We all want to be, we all want to contribute to the, to the good of the marketplace of ideas.

[Ami Kozak]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

We don't want to be the guy who contributes the bacteria that the sunlight has to now come in and fix, do we?

[Ami Kozak]

But you want to leave the marketplace of ideas open to dissent and, and disagreement.

[Noam Dwarman]

It is as.

[Ami Kozak]

In other words, let's say there's a doctor, hypothetically, who was going on, I don't know if this was in the 90s, but was saying, I'm telling you, thalidomide is dangerous for these pregnant women. And someone said, are you kidding me? The medical establishment, the FDA has approved this medicine. It's helping with nausea, it's helping so many women. If they stop taking it, they're going to get very sick. And then what happened? We had thalidomide babies. Right. So there are cases where people sound the alarm. In some cases they're wrong. In some cases they're right.

[Noam Dwarman]

Right.

[Ami Kozak]

You want to leave it open to inquiry and debate. I don't know if the polio, a totally different matter, is comparable to Holocaust denial.

[Noam Dwarman]

It's closer. It's closer to Holocaust denial than it is thalidomide babies.

[Ami Kozak]

And I don't agree with her. I don't agree with the things being claimed. But like, we're so afraid of wrong ideas that we what. What's the alternative to, to challenging those ideas that being espoused on the. On Joe Rogan.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, but we know, unfortunately, that conspiracy theories. Look, here we are in 2025America, and these anti Semitic conspiracy theories are at a.

[Ami Kozak]

They're resonating. Yeah.

[Periel]

All time high.

[Noam Dwarman]

90 year high.

[Ami Kozak]

Absolutely.

[Noam Dwarman]

So there's your, your, your. Margaret, your sunlight's the best disinfectant. Sunlight. Sunlight is a treatment.

[Ami Kozak]

No, those, the people perpetuating those to me, like ridicule, satire, making fun of them is. That's what I'd like to do.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes, but, but you're not.

[Ami Kozak]

And if Joe had Jake Shields on Tomorrow, I'd be more in line with what you're saying where it's like, okay, but I guess I'm just drawing the line of my degree is a little different as to who I'm assessing as like real harmful figures that have no redeeming social value or intellectual value.

[Noam Dwarman]

He did have Daryl on.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, let's talk about that one.

[Noam Dwarman]

And Daryl said that, Crystal, that Hitler was against Kristallnacht. And if you have a more sophisticated understanding of Darrell's arguments, you know that this comes from David Irving, that the general argument is that Hitler was protective.

[Unidentified Speaker 3]

Of the jews, like in 1938, which is pretty far down the line. When Kristallnacht happened, it was kind of a nationwide pogrom against the Jews in Germany that was launched by. Primarily by Goebbels, the propaganda minister. But there, There was outrage in the German cities. People in Berlin, a lot of the places were outraged by what was going on. And Hitler had to actually get on the phone with Goebbels and say, cut this shit out. Like, this is not. This is not good. Like, not because he loves the Jews all of a sudden, obviously, but because this is bad propaganda.

[Unidentified Speaker 4]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, there was Bergen Belsen, there was Dachau, there was Buchenwald. And subsequently, of course, the great big Holocaust legend has been built up into its almost impregnable form now, where the whole world now believes that one man, Adolf Hitler, mad, of course, one madman, Adolf Hitler killed 6 million people in Auschwitz, etc. On this great big romantic notion which is kept alive for various reasons of international finance and high politics and statesmanship, has been kept alive because nobody dares attack it. But I've been heartened in my approach by the knowledge that the documents that I had found about Hitler and the Jewish question, remarkably enough, all the genuine documents about that showed him extending his hand to protect them. So Anything that had been done to them had been done by people far lower down the scale. Ordinary common criminals. We have to explain, you see that the documents which do exist in the far. The genuine documents show Hitler trying to protect the Jews. The night of Broken Glass. That famous event in November 1938 when thousands of Jewish shops were smashed and burned down and looted and plundered. 60 or 70 Jews are murdered by individual gangsters. That night, 100 or 200 civilization synagogues are burnt down. We have to explain how it is that when Hitler gets the word of that at 2 o' clock in the morning. I know because I've spoken to all the people who are with him at that precise moment. I know how he got the news. He pulls out every organ stop to try and stop this madness.

[Noam Dwarman]

He said at other times that Daryl said that, that Churchill was installed by Zionists to pursue Zionist interests and, and, and fight World War II. And if you know the full David Irving argument. David Irving says the Jews bought Churchill. All he had to do, they gave him money and all he had to do in return was turn his guns from this direction towards Germany.

[Unidentified Speaker 4]

From 1936 onwards he was financed by a little secret pressure group called the Focus. They funded him. They weren't all Jews, they were primarily Jewish, but they were also left wing socialists and left wing conservative members of Parliament. Then chairman of the British of the Shell Petroleum Company wrote out a check for Churchill of the order of £40,000, which in modern day money would be probably about $700,000. Gave it to him as a gift. He was Jewish. It was a Jewish gift to Churchill. They bought him. The price was small because Churchill was by that sum of money bought. He was hired, he became a hired help. The only thing he was asked to do was to realign his gun and point his cannon securely on Nazi Germany. If you look at the events as they really happened, until 1936 he hardly gave Germany a passing mention in his speeches and writings. Other things were more important. From 1936 onwards he began beating the anti Nazi, anti German drum.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

What was the motive?

[Unidentified Speaker 3]

Well, you know, Churchill's got a long complicated history. I mean he's a, you know, he's somebody who.

[Ami Kozak]

That was the wrest smile I think I've ever seen.

[Unidentified Speaker 3]

Yeah, well look, I think on one level there was a sense that Churchill was sort of humiliated by his performance in the First World War. But then you get into, you know, why was, why was Winston Churchill such a, such a dedicated booster of Zionism? From early on in his life Right. And there's ideological reasons. But then as time goes on, you know, you read stories about Churchill going bankrupt and needing money, getting bailed out by people who shared his interests, you know, in terms of Zionism. But also his hostility, just, just, you know, I think his hostility, to put it this way, I think his hostility to Germany was real. I don't think that he necessarily had to be bribed to have that feeling. But I think he was to an extent put in place by people, the financiers, by a media complex that wanted to make sure that he was the.

[Noam Dwarman]

Guy.

[Unidentified Speaker 3]

Who was representing Britain in that conflict for a reason.

[Noam Dwarman]

He said that the reason. I mean, I could go on and on with the various things that. One other thing that Daryl said was that the people dying in camps after Operation Barbarossa, after the attack on the Soviet Union in 41, I guess it was, died of a kind of catastrophe where they were overwhelmed and they were starving to death such that a letter was sent from a commandant saying there's not enough food to go around it. It may be more humane to find a fast acting method to kill them all quickly make the case for that.

[Ami Kozak]

Okay, so you've made your statement. A lot of people are thinking, well, wait a second, you said Churchill, my.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Childhood hero, the guy with the cigar.

[Unidentified Speaker 3]

Yeah, well, and the next thought that comes into their head he's saying is that, oh, you're saying Churchill was the chief villain, therefore his enemies, you know, Adolf Hitler and so forth, were Stalin, the protagonists.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Right.

[Unidentified Speaker 3]

They're the good guys. If you think he's a villain, that's not the case. That's not what I'm saying. You know, Germany, look, they, they put themselves into a, into a position and Adolf Hitler is chiefly responsible for this, but his whole regime is responsible for it. That when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth that they were going to have to handle. They went in with no plan for that and they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there. You know, you have, you have like letters as early as July, August 1941, from Commandants of these makeshift camps that they're setting up for these millions of people who are surrendering or people they're rounding up and they're. So it's two months after, a month or two after Barbarossa was launched and they're writing back to the high Command in Berlin saying, we can't feed these people. We don't have the food to feed these people. And one of them actually says, rather than wait for them all to slowly starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane to just finish them off quickly now?

[Noam Dwarman]

But what, of course, Daryl left out of that letter was that the next line was, but either way, humane or not, it would be more pleasant than what we're watching now. And then the next paragraph, it talks about an end. And no matter what we decide, I would suggest we sterilize all the women, because that'll take care of the Jewish problem once and for all. So this is so. So now if I now I have a relationship with Daryl, there is no way I'm bringing Daryl Cooper on my show to discuss his take on these issues without having myself or having one of my million dollar a year things like, okay, I'm gonna have somebody, come on now, who's really gonna have a revisionist view of World War II and the Holocaust. Right? Let me. Let's make sure we're prepared to push back on this. This is not any topic. This is serious. But he doesn't do that. Instead, what he said was that, I saw that issue with Tucker, and, you know, you just care about how war affects people and the psychology of people, and it was a coordinated effort against you.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

I saw what happened with you on the Tucker Carlson thing, and I spoke about it almost immediately on the podcast. I've been listening to your podcast for a long time, and it's so charitable and comprehensive and so thorough. And so you put so much weight on the real lives and suffering of human beings on all sides of any conflict. The regular people that didn't want to be dragged into any war that find themselves on the front line. The stories that you tell and the way you tell them is so comprehensive and so, again, charitable. Like the humanity of these people is so well expressed that your fans know you. I'm a fan. I know you. I know how you view things. I know how you portray things. I know how honest you are about all aspects of conflict. And again, as charitable as possible, the way you lay this out, I think.

[Unidentified Speaker 3]

A lot of it also has to do with the fact that so many of these of these questions have really been made. You know, it's not like they're off limits. Like, they're illegal and you're gonna go to jail if you talk about them. I'm still sitting here. But the attempt is to make it so that you can't be in any kind of respectable society.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Yeah, the attempt is to make you radioactive.

[Unidentified Speaker 3]

And so it really has like the opposite effect of the one that is at least ostensibly intended.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

You know, I think there's a bunch of things going on simultaneously. I think some of this is coordinated. And I think, because I think that with everything now online, I think there's public momentum, opinions that aren't necessarily organically.

[Noam Dwarman]

Shaped, never completely whitewashing what was actually said. Now, yes, he has every right to do it, but let's not say that when Sam was criticizing it, Sam was wrong to criticize it or that Sam was an anti free speech figure. Sam's the guy who brought on Charles Murray.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And then brought on Ezra Klein right after to debate it. And Sam also. But Sam delved into it, but it's.

[Ami Kozak]

More the substance of his criticism, not the fact that he criticized. That's all well and good, but my point is, see, I got introduced to the Daryl Cooper thing a little late in the game. I wasn't. I watched that whole episode with him and Daryl Cooper, Joe Rogan and Daryl Cooper. See what all the fuss was about. And one thing was interesting, was first.

[Noam Dwarman]

Of all, Mein Kampf can be taken with a grain of salt.

[Ami Kozak]

It stacked against me because Joe's watched clearly a lot of this guy and consumed a lot of his podcasting and I hadn't. So that also just humbles me a little bit before judging to say, like, if Joe, who I've watched for years and has had on a lot of different range of people, he's had on Barry Weiss and Ben Shapiro and Douglas Murray. He's also had on Roger Waters and abby Martin Pre October 7th too. People didn't go crazy about it because the temperature wasn't so high as to where it is now. It was, I think, more curiosity driven. But having said that, because he's more familiar with the thing.

[Noam Dwarman]

Roger Waters Post Oct 7 no, not.

[Ami Kozak]

On Rogan, no, pre and saying a lot of the same stuff. But we didn't have this reaction to it.

[Noam Dwarman]

Right.

[Ami Kozak]

Because we didn't feel like we're in this precarious or fragile situation. But he still had them on. I'll react to it, but I'm talking the community as a whole or whatever, the culture as a whole, especially in the Jewish community and pro Israel community. But I'm watching this episode and the way I'm processing it, for one, the fact that Joe is much more familiar with this guest than I am puts me in a position to just like judge carefully because if he's, let's say there's a thousand episodes. And you probably know better than I do because you are more familiar with Daryl Cooper, like the Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem and these other things that are very sympathetic to Jewish suffering or all these things.

[Noam Dwarman]

It was very sympathetic to Jewish suffering. But go ahead.

[Ami Kozak]

I'm making presumptions because I haven't, I haven't immersed myself in this stuff, but I'm presuming Joe has, and he's coming to the conclusion that you're so obviously not what they're portraying you as. Fine. So I took that with a grain of salt. But my point is, I'm watching this and my mind goes back to watching lectures of Jordan PETERSON in, like, 2015, 2014, and the way Jordan Peterson used to talk about history from a psychoanalytical perspective. You hear him talk about Hitler, you hear him talk about Hitler's preferences, and it was a very humanizing thing, because sometimes the process of talking about history and psychoanalyzing history is to make the case that you think you wouldn't have been a Nazi in those days.

[Noam Dwarman]

Right. That. Fine. That's not the conversation that was had.

[Ami Kozak]

No. But on Rogan itself, if you watch it with that in mind, he certainly says things that I think are just false and worth confronting. And the fact if Joe doesn't have it in his arsenal or it doesn't come to him to confront Darrell Cooper, I don't know, it feels almost self defeating to just not confront those ideas and explain why they're wrong, even if Joe's not equipped to do it. Fine. But other people are watching. Yeah.

[Periel]

This stuff and consuming it like that. I think, I mean, I think.

[Ami Kozak]

But it's just a little more I want to say.

[Noam Dwarman]

I want to say it's very important. I said, and Tiana, you ready to play that video? In a second.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, go ahead. So listen, but you're more familiar with D. Not yet.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'll tell you when. I'll tell you when. All right, so the thing about. There's some elements of truth in everything that's being said here. I, I, you know, when I was a kid, when, in the late 60s and early 70s, mid-70s, when there was an argument that went around about whether or not the rock stars, because they were into drugs, would cause kids to start taking drugs. And, you know, only the squares were concerned about that. And I remember as a kid in high school, my kind of friend group, the great, one of my friends, got really into the Grateful Dead. All of a sudden. And I wasn't that into the Dead. And our group kind of split up and all the kids who got into the Grateful Dead got into heavy hallucinogenics. And I remember noting that as a kid, like, oh, they're into. And I kind of like the Dead music. But I wasn't into the Dead. Right. The whole. I said, oh, it actually did lead to. To these kids being all into lsd. My long winded point is that hypnos and cultural cachet do have a power and an effect. And when some old. You know, when Norman Finkelstein says anti Semitic things, it only goes so far. When the most important, coolest guy in the world. I want to have a civil conversation. What's that? When the coolest guy in the world is surrounding himself with. What do I keep hearing?

[Ami Kozak]

Okay, something played. Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

When the coolest guy in the world is surrounding himself with other cool people who all seem to be into this stuff. This filters down in a way which has nothing to do with facts or research or anything else. None of the kids I knew who were taking LSD were looking up the harm, the pluses and minuses of lsd. They say the dead likes it, so I like it. Rogan likes these guys. Rogan thinks they're cool. Jake Shields. So this is. I'm disposed to it and I can't give that a pass. And you can at the same time. Note there's all this anti Semitism now that you. You eloquently put at the beginning of the conversation and then say, but nobody's done anything wrong.

[Ami Kozak]

Do you think there's a difference between a Daryl Cooper and a Jake Shields?

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, I don't know because really, do.

[Ami Kozak]

You think Joe Rogan would have Jake Shields on again?

[Noam Dwarman]

No, I hope not. But I don't see much. Well, let's start this. I have. I've thought a lot about what you're asking. First of all, Daryl Cooper is a thousand times more sophisticated, smart and knowledgeable than Jake Shield Shields.

[Ami Kozak]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't see much of him seeing Ian Carroll and Jake Shields. Do you? You want to split that hair for me?

[Ami Kozak]

I can a little bit.

[Noam Dwarman]

A little bit?

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah. I mean, Jake Shields is a proud, unapologetic, Jew hating, you know, anti Semite and says it all the time on Twitter and does the worst thing and Ian Carroll does that whole. It's like a sort of adjacent to it. I would say it's maybe a couple a one degree of. I mean, they're just not the same exact thing.

[Periel]

Do they need to be the same exact thing.

[Ami Kozak]

I mean, in order to slip into Rogan's eco universe.

[Noam Dwarman]

Dude, let's not. Let's not. This is upsetting me, actually. Listen. No, no, let's not buy the gaslighting.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

Of the people who are gaslighting us.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

We know goddamn well there's not a thing that Jake Shields says that bothers Ian Carroll. The only difference is a marketing decision of how they're going to present themselves. It's a matter of sophistication.

[Ami Kozak]

Got some. Some lady, I was in a space, she said something along the lines of, oh, yeah, 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. And I was like, oh, my God, bro, here we.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

I'm just so sick of hearing that, you know, you playing along with something that you just know is. It came to a point, like, you play along with it for a while because the worst possible thing you could be is a Holocaust denier. It's illegal. You get banned from everything. Y think even. Can you even deny it on Twitter?

[Ami Kozak]

It. It occurred. We're not going to. It absolutely occurred.

[Noam Dwarman]

People died.

[Ami Kozak]

I'm not denying it. It absolutely occurred. But the way that they tell us about it is questionable.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

It's kind of like 40 had babies.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

Two babies died that day, not 40. And they weren't beheaded. Should sit down and try to figure out the truth. And I don't know the exact truth. I don't know exactly what happened, but I know it wasn't 6 million. I know they're full a lot. The whole Holocaust story was based off the Nuremberg trials, is what they did, is they took. I think it was Rudolph Haas or. Yeah, Rudolph Haas, I think it was. There's a house in a Hess, or. I don't pronounce the last frame name right, but there's one of them. They took and they, like, tortured them for three days. It was five Jewish people. This is admitted by the guy, the torturers and him. Until finally, you know, no sleep torture. They started threatening to torture his kids, too. He finally.

[Noam Dwarman]

He can.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

He signed these papers to Gabe and said, sure, I guess, you know, 6 million Jews. That the entire story was built around that.

[Ami Kozak]

You. You torture them long enough, they'll tell you anything you want to hear.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

Exactly. It took three days to break them down. And it was all Jewish people. This is documented. Like, yeah, the Nuremberg trials story was based off We're a witch on elevators of death that go into fire. There's so many absurd stories.

[Ami Kozak]

Then you talk about the ovens. It takes like an hour or two hours to cremate a body. How would you be able to cremate that many people in the ovens as they claim than the gas chambers? They were delousing stations. How the were they in a gas chamber when a door opens out?

[Noam Dwarman]

A lot of the ones they could.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

Walk out, a lot of the ones too, they say were gas chambers. Well, when the colocots happened, when they liberated them all, none of them were active. They were all. Later they said, oh, these used to be gas chambers. The Soviets reconstructed them. You go to Auschwitz chimney. Yeah, they reconstructed, they built the chimney later. There's no blue stains on it which the, the Zycon B would put. They looked, they looked to look for the bodies. Found no bodies in the ground. Something happened there. But like, okay, why is there no gas chambers?

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Speeches in English. I said, oh, this dude's probably racist.

[Noam Dwarman]

As he's probably gonna say the N.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Word right off this. I was like, oh my gosh, he's just very pro Germany. Like, yeah, he's pro. Tick Tock is all over those videos right now. Tick Tock is eating that up. And it's. That's the thing about this, I think that the, all of this is circling around this converse, this like transformation that's happening from controlled information to open information. And so like the Holocaust is a good example of one where it's like, like I don't think, I don't think that the Holocaust did not happen. So to be clear, what I'm saying is something happened for sure, right? But I know that the narratives around the Holocaust that I was taught in school, they were forged in the era of controlled information. But in reality, like Nazi Germany came out of the post World War I German era, right? And that post World War I Germany was specifically created by the international banking cartel when they had like, so after, after World War I, the Treaty of Versailles I believe it was called, is when they basically determined what Germany was going to owe, like trillions of marks and they're going to have to repay all this debt. They basically turned Germany into an economic slave state. And the whole world had business relationships. Everyone else all around the world was funding them. And those death camps, like those camps in Germany, a lot of they were slave labor camps. And all of the companies, just like our prison labor system in America right now, where McDonald's and Starbucks and Verizon are prisoners to do like labor for 7 cents an hour or whatever it is, that's what was happening in Germany in that pre world War, like pre and during World War II is all of our American and European and British. All these other corporations, these multinational corporations were building the camps for the work that they were using to produce the products that they were selling. And it was. It was not just a German operation Ottomans. It was during World War I, as they made a bunch of different deals of like, we need to win this war, and if you. If you help us, us, we'll give you. You know.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

But then they didn't do the money, so they also promised it to the Rothschilds.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Ami Kozak]

Yep. Yeah.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

No, it gets. I've tried figuring out how it started, and I mean, I guess the Rothschilds, that's what it doesn't.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

I try not to, like, go overbearing on, like, everybody has to be Jewish.

[Ami Kozak]

It's just like, that will make you.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Like, yeah, it's unhealthy.

[Noam Dwarman]

Jake Shields and Ian Carroll retweet each other, go on each other's podcasts, right? They, they, they, they, they, they, you know, add to each other's anti Semitic tweets. There is zero difference between them in terms of. There's nothing that Jake Shields would ever say that Ian Carroll will say. Dude, that's. That's wrong.

[Ami Kozak]

That's all fair. That's all fair.

[Noam Dwarman]

And there's nothing that Dan Bilzerian will say. And Dan Bilzerian.

[Ami Kozak]

I'm not going to cut them any fucking slack. They are overrepresented in every single fucking category. They're crushing it across the board. And not just a little bit. I mean, I'm talking about, like, 3,500% overrepresented in categories. And we're talking about government, we're talking about banks, we're talking about media, we're talking about Hollywood, we're talking about all the important positions in America. They're massively overrepresented. When you said on Patrick David's podcast.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

As well, they play the victim card.

[Ami Kozak]

So effing much about Jewish people. I mean, do you not understand why Jewish people might feel a sense of victimhood given that 6 million of them were killed in World War II by a genocidal monster in the Holocaust? Do you not understand why that might make Jewish people feel that, yes, they.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Have indeed been victims? Yeah, I mean, that figure has been revised.

[Ami Kozak]

But, you know, I believe that Jewish supremacy is the greatest threat to America, and I think it's the greatest threat to the world today.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

I truly believe that.

[Noam Dwarman]

There's a clip of Ian Carroll saying, blah, blah, blah, the Holocaust, whatever that was.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

And it's like. And that's not the point. The point is not that, like, all Jewish people are in on this thing. The point is that, like, there.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Is that Jewish people are susceptible to being approached by this organization and, like, and we need to support the Jewish people that reject it. Like, we need to.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

Them to be in our side. So these people that are. Oh, Jews bad.

[Noam Dwarman]

They're.

[Unidentified Speaker 6]

They're a big problem. Exactly, because we need to bring Jews to our side, not push them away, not be like, oh, you're a Jew.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

We need to heal. We don't need to, like, create more divides, because the last thing we need is to create another holocaust of sorts, whatever that was. Like, we. We don't need to, like. And I don't mean that flippantly, like any death is death. I'm just saying that, like, you don't.

[Noam Dwarman]

And then they all start laughing 100%.

[Ami Kozak]

So look, if we're just trying to be precise.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, not precise is in reality. Not in. Not in so precise accepting their. Their 100% Trojan Horse of it in the.

[Ami Kozak]

In the tactics that they use. Say. Right. Like, in the spectrum of all this, they're very close together. They just. Ian Carroll, just, as a matter of fact, doesn't tweet a picture of a Jew with a hook nose and say, watch out. He. He doesn't do. He does other things that are nefarious and bad, but Jake Shields does.

[Noam Dwarman]

But you don't think Rogan should have Jake Shields on.

[Ami Kozak]

Absolutely not.

[Noam Dwarman]

But you think Ian Shield in Carroll somehow passes the test. No.

[Ami Kozak]

Ian Carroll was the moment where we go, oh, God, this is. There's real trouble in the water here.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's.

[Ami Kozak]

The alarm bells go off, because I think what attracts Joe, if I'm trying to be impartial, but given Joe's history and his. In his credibility with the audience.

[Noam Dwarman]

Right.

[Ami Kozak]

And the goodwill he's built up over the years, I think with his audience. Ian Carroll gets on the show, and where is the Venn diagram that attracts Joe to Ian? I think it's conspiracy because Joe's always.

[Noam Dwarman]

All of them.

[Ami Kozak]

What? No, but I'm saying Joe has always been attracted to conspiracy theories in general. Right. Whether it's moon landing, jfk, all that kind of stuff.

[Noam Dwarman]

You're restating my introduction.

[Ami Kozak]

Right. So Ian Carroll gets on the show. They spend most of the time talking about conspiracies in the last five minutes or whatever. He brings up the Epstein stuff. Now, I'm not trying to give a pass. I'm just trying to understand how that could slip through the Cracks, if you.

[Noam Dwarman]

Want to measure Intense.

[Ami Kozak]

I don't think Jake Shields. There's any way you could look, you could look past it or see any other way. I don't think Joe would have Canazon either. I don't think he'd have Canazon's on again either.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay, so let's play this clip. Play this clip and you tell me what you see. This.

[Ami Kozak]

Sure. I mean, look, if the media was just driven by ratings, they'd be doing shows on Jeffrey Epstein every day.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Every day.

[Ami Kozak]

I mean, because you'd be the number one show in cable news. You could go, I'm gonna talk about no other topic. Give me the 8pm hour on MSNBC or CNN or Fox News or whatever and I'll say, I'm just gonna make my show about Jeffrey Epstein.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's the.

[Ami Kozak]

Every single day. That's all we're doing. I guarantee you I have number one show in cable news.

[Noam Dwarman]

Right.

[Ami Kozak]

More people would wanna watch that.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

The Candace Owens Show.

[Ami Kozak]

That's on YouTube. Yeah, that's right. And it's doing better numbers than any of the shows on cable news.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

It's phenomenal. It's like they created a monster with her when they fired her from the Daily Wire. They created a monster.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, they sure did.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

She can't be stopped.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Oh, no, no, no.

[Ami Kozak]

There's no stopping Cannonball because she's hitting.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

All the fucking third rails that no one wants to touch. She's got a six hour presentation on how Bridget McCrone is a man.

[Ami Kozak]

It's fucking six hours plus long.

[Noam Dwarman]

First of all, just to imagine if somebody said, I don't know what the equivalent things. What Candace Owens has been saying about you is about black people, these fucking N word apes, you know, so like the worst, the worst of the worst. Because she's, she's saying the worst of the worst. And then that person had a show and he said, could you imagine me yucking it up? That person's awesome. She's killing it. You know, this person who's, who's saying things about, you know, the things that. The cake essentially a kkk. Awesome. So number one, I want you to explain that. And number two, and they said, and she's touching all the third rails. Now they mentioned Bridget Macron, but that's not a third rail. Nobody gives a shit about whether Bridget Macron is a man. We all know the third rails that she's touching and they're yucking it up about it right now. Tell me, what the fuck am I missing here? Do you Wanna say that the bubble over both those guys heads during that conversation is not a reel of the outrageous stuff she's been saying about Jews.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

Then we have Dr. Joel Finkelstein, who is Jewish. We have Jacob Zucker, who is Jewish. We have Danny Sarah Finkelstein, who is Jewish. We have Sonia Janofsky, who is Jewish. We have Alex Goldenberg, who is Jewish. We have Ohad Fadida, who is Jewish. We have Gideon for her, who we checked and he is Jewish. We have Simon Lazarus, who is Jewish. Catholics and Christians were going missing on Passover. Then they would find bodies across Europe and they were able to trace them back to Jews.

[Noam Dwarman]

Blood libel.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

They weren't Jews, okay? These were frankists. This frankist cult which is masquerading behind Jews still participates in this shit to this day. Okay. Why would you want, as a small nation that is the size of New Jersey, okay. Why would you want the pedophiles to flee there?

[Noam Dwarman]

Actually, what do they mean by third rail?

[Ami Kozak]

What they, I think, are unpacking in that clip and kibitzing and laughing about is that Candace Owens has been embarking on this strategy campaign of provocation.

[Noam Dwarman]

But they don't say. It's disgusting what she's doing.

[Ami Kozak]

True, but I'll finish. Let me finish the point. She's doing this thing where she's poking this beast, this provocation.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, it's awesome.

[Ami Kozak]

And they're. No, they're what's amusing them or it's amusing them.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes.

[Ami Kozak]

What's amusing to them is. And I think the thing.

[Noam Dwarman]

They have a right to be amused by it. I'm not fucking amused by it. Are you?

[Ami Kozak]

No, but I think that the way we react to it and being reactionary plays into her hands.

[Noam Dwarman]

Dude, let's. We can strategize our reaction in a second.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Let's agree on the reality of it first and then we can decide how we want to react to it. And what I'm seeing all around is nobody wants to listen. I'm taking it out on you because I'm ready to cancel the fucking podcast and go off Twitter because I've had this conversation with 10 other prominent Jewish intellectuals.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

All the people who came out against Tucker.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

They will not hand this. This is their third. They do not want to risk this. Nobody has more to lose than I do by risking this.

[Ami Kozak]

They don't wanna risk what. Can you clarify?

[Noam Dwarman]

In other words, they don't wanna say what I'm saying. Like, yes, this is a problem. Of course Joe has every right to say it. Joe is not an anti Semite. Joel may not even realize.

[Ami Kozak]

I just want Joe to like me. Noam.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay, you know what?

[Ami Kozak]

I just want him to like me.

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay, that may be the case.

[Ami Kozak]

No, I actually just. I'm weighing. First of all, look, I'm weighing a few things here.

[Noam Dwarman]

They're laughing and saying awesome about a woman who is touching the third rails of saying that Jews are slaughtering Christian babies at Passover, that Herzl was not Jewish, that Lyndon, that, that, that. That Lyndon Johnson was Jewish, that Stalin was Jewish, that Mengele was prop. The, the. The Mendel experiments were propaganda.

[Ami Kozak]

Absolutely.

[Noam Dwarman]

She plays Count the Jew. I mean, how, how.

[Ami Kozak]

I'm not saying to not be non judgmental about it. I've gone after Dave Smith.

[Noam Dwarman]

Hold on, hold on.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, I can answer you.

[Noam Dwarman]

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Yeah, you supposed to have counter probing. Counter program. Go ahead, you have the mic.

[Ami Kozak]

The Dave Smith behavior that I don't think is so forgivable or debatable or challengeable in the sense on the marketplace of ideas because it doesn't belong there, is his flippancy and his cozying up to some of the worst figures online.

[Noam Dwarman]

And saying, why are you segregating out Dave Smith?

[Ami Kozak]

Just because he's in this clip and talking about it?

[Noam Dwarman]

But you mean just him or both of them?

[Ami Kozak]

Well, now Joe is kind of going into that lane. But Dave has been doing it. I'm. Let's. I'm going on Dave for a second because he's the guest. So that's why this is coming up. Because he brought up the point and Joe was reacting to it. But I'm just, I think I'm saying what you would agree with is that what he's been doing is saying these guys are so bad, what Israel's doing is a disaster. But everybody else is just like providing cover for all these people in the sense that he will not call out antisemitism where it stares him in the face. And when people like us and anyone is screaming the barbarians are at the gates, whether it's about foreign policy or all these other debates, he's the one saying, stop, they're not at the gates. You're causing the barbarians to be at the gates. Then when they break fruit through the gates, his arguments become unfalsifiable because he gets to say, I told you so. And we're like, no, we told you so. And you tried to make everybody feel like it's not a big deal. These are just some trolls on Twitter. And so I've gone after him for that. In Joe's case. I have to think about this for a second because I remember a time when Jordan Peterson used to go on Rogan, right, who I'm a big fan of, and the woke left used to say, once again, Joe platforms, transphobe, misogynist, hateful, bigot Jordan Peterson, because he said the words enforced monogamy in an article and they misrepresented the crap out of Jordan Peterson on his show. And they barely consumed the content or watched the show and they came to these judgment.

[Noam Dwarman]

Am I misrepresenting the crap out of somebody?

[Ami Kozak]

What's that?

[Noam Dwarman]

Am I misrepresenting the crap out of somebody? Because I hope not.

[Ami Kozak]

No, but I think it's representing in any way. No, I think some of the emotions are. Are high on this subject and in some cases.

[Noam Dwarman]

But you're making a good point. Yes. If it's an. If it's analogous, if I'm misrepresenting, then by all means.

[Ami Kozak]

What I mean is why I'm like looking, why it's. Why it's presenting like I'm giving Joe a pass, is because for so long in a lot of these domains and having these conversations, it was the woke left coming after him for having ideas and conversations about race, about culture, about these things and completely misrepresenting. And I don't want to fall into that same trap. So I'm trying to be a little discerning, given how much value, let's be honest, Joe has provided to not just the comedy community, but to the culture, to the world of free speech and ideas in a world that we just came out of in 2024, of oppressing ideas, silencing speech. We disagree with. That was the tactics of the left.

[Noam Dwarman]

You know, I'm such a fucking madman. I am not a Joe, Joe Rogan hater. Yeah, I'm so crazy. My mother could be doing this stuff and I'd be out there blasting it because. Because this is not.

[Ami Kozak]

But I just have to. Just to wrap up what I'm saying here. When I look at that and I see them making light of it, it's very concerning, but it also is informative. This is where the chips have fallen in this conversation over the course of the 18 months. There's a movable middle. There's the people who celebrated October 7, right? And or were apathetic to it and took the side of barbarians. I can't move them. They are where they are. The left wing, anti Zionist, anti Semites, hate Israel because it's better and because it's virtuous. So me flaunting the merits of Israel or Jews, it's not going to move them because they hate merit and they hate virtue. So. Not them. The far right.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't even think you're right about that. But go ahead, go ahead.

[Ami Kozak]

On the far left in the Marxist.

[Noam Dwarman]

Community, my read on their. Their psychology, hating, whatever. I don't want to go. I just don't want that there's people.

[Ami Kozak]

You can't move, okay. And they partner with the right, radical Islamist ideologies that want to tear down the west, so they're going to hate a Western representation in the Middle east and all those things. If you're a bigot on the woke, what we deem now as the woke.

[Noam Dwarman]

Right.

[Ami Kozak]

Far right. And you just hate Jews and blame them for every problem, and you're bitter and resentful and you scapegoat Jews for everything. Can't move you. There's a moveable middle, and then there's the spectrum of ideas here that are being peddled out there. When I see them making light of that, or when I see Bill Burr in his new special, make a joke about human shields and it gets a laugh, I can say to myself, you, Bill Burr, do better. Terrible joke. Or I could say, I got to.

[Noam Dwarman]

Tell you the difference.

[Ami Kozak]

Well, I just want to finish. I just want to say, go ahead. I use finish. I use this also to. Rather than just. Just cast aspersions or judge it, to say, you know, like, maybe there's a better tactic and strategies that when we're confronted with these, like, repugnant ideas, we're strong enough as a community, we're strong enough to advocate for better ideas and debunk these silly, stupid claims. If you've been watching Schultz make rounds on the podcast, he takes a different approach, and all of a sudden he's on pbd. He goes, isn't it more likely that America controls Israel being that they're so much more militarily powerful? And everyone goes, oh, okay. And that's a quick nudge. He didn't call anybody names and just did that. Yes. So I don't know, Am I. Am I disappointing you?

[Noam Dwarman]

No. What was the thing you said right before? I want to respond right before. You just said about Andrew Schultz that.

[Ami Kozak]

It'S data, it's informative. When I watch them have this conversation as to where. Where the arguments have fallen. And then I said, with regard to that, it's. That it's informative. When I see this kind of. When I think of things and I'm trying to figure out a better way to react to it and respond to it.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, in any case, look, we're all Jews here. But I do want to make the point, the caveat, that I have many of these same feelings before October 7th with regard to other people and other issues.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Because truth is absolutely important. But as Jews here, you know, if not we're. If. If we're not for ourselves, then who? If not now, when? I am fighting for my people based on what I regard as truth. And if I'm wrong, somebody has to tell me where I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then all these comparisons to dishonorable actors are not an argument against what I'm saying. Now, Bill Burr makes a joke about human shields, and this is a very important point. Israel is debatable. It is absolutely. I don't agree with Bill Burr, but it's actually absolutely debatable. And I'm sure it's debated within the War Cabinet. It's actually a part of international law, which is how many civilians are we going to kill? Even if they're human shields as compared to what are we going to get strategically for it? What is the price to pay? And Bulber thinks that Israel's out to lunch. They're killing way too many civilians for that thing. Now, there's no right or wrong answer to that, but people have to draw a line somewhere. And Bill Burr is criticizing Israel. Fine. You could make the argument. I made the argument on day one. Listen, one thing Israel might consider is doing nothing after October 7th. Remember, I said that? I said, and if Israel did nothing, I would not criticize him because these are all debatable points. But unless you are post truth, this is not what Candace Owens, Jake Shields and these other idiots are discussing. What they will do is when you complain about what they're saying, they will then say you don't like criticism of Israel and don't play into their hands. No, you can criticize Israel all you want, although of course you should have a responsible debate about it. You're denying the Holocaust. You're saying that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are true, that the Jews are pulling the strings behind all global wars in the last thousand years, that Jews kill Christian babies at Passover.

[Ami Kozak]

You're preaching to the choir on that. I get it.

[Noam Dwarman]

This is not debatable stuff. It's stuff you have a right to say. But we should not be impotent about saying no. If you're trafficking these in these if you're trafficking in these ideas or lending comfort and imprimatur and reputational cachet and hipness and chumminess to the people who are engaging this stuff, you are lining up with evil in this world.

[Ami Kozak]

So.

[Noam Dwarman]

And. And to tell me that. Well, yeah, you could say that, but you could have said that about this. And, you know, that's what they said about Jordan Peterson. You're dragging me into this briar patch. I don't know how to respond.

[Ami Kozak]

Well, you're conflating. My judgment of Joe is that you're.

[Noam Dwarman]

Setting up a hall of mirrors where we don't know what's true and what's not true.

[Ami Kozak]

No, no, my. We were talking about Joe or Dave Smith, and I judge Dave Smith a little more harshly, given his pattern of chumminess with these worse actors. I don't think you'd ever see Joe go on Jake Shields or Fuentes or all these people and have them on and have this kibitz conversation. But there's an. There are intersections where Dave Smith and Joe have a rapport, and he can channel some of that. And the Daryl Cooper. There's that Venn diagram. Now, Ian Carroll was the biggest one of concern for me. That's where I went. Oh, my God. Like, I'm drawing a line here, and I'm gonna criticize it, but I think if you want to move somebody back to your side or be more sympathetic to our cause, our side, our people. I don't know if the way to do it is to cast aspersions and rush to judgment.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm casting. Criticism is not a script.

[Ami Kozak]

Criticism is not. But. But rushing to judgment or I see people on Twitter. We all knew it. Joe's an anti Semite. We've known all along. You're not doing that. I'm not doing it.

[Noam Dwarman]

And Sam didn't do that.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, but like you said before, like close cousins, the elixir, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, he's interpreting your. He might be lumping in the crit. You have to be, I think, just nuanced and careful with criticism to know that it's coming from a place of good faith and. And coming from not the same place as people who are just willing to jump to conclusions and start saying, we all knew Joe was just an anti Semite along. I don't think that's the way to move the middle or. Or make the case back. Because if.

[Noam Dwarman]

I mean, what you're doing is. Is, you know, if this was Joe's.

[Ami Kozak]

First episode, it'd Be a little bit different, but there's been a lot to judge here.

[Noam Dwarman]

You're setting up a straw man. And that I agree with you on.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

Which is not. Was not my argument. But yes, I, I agree. And no.

[Ami Kozak]

But I'm critical of it, too. Them kibitzing about that stuff is very troubling. It's messed up. It's totally messed up. And.

[Noam Dwarman]

But like I've been saying, but then.

[Ami Kozak]

What do we do from there?

[Noam Dwarman]

My mantra has been for a while now, this stuff is not going to stop itself.

[Ami Kozak]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

And every cowardly Jew who is rationalizing it all, and they've been doing it for a long time now, is saying, right this way.

[Ami Kozak]

No, no, no. Isn't it more cowardly not to speak out and say, here's why all this is bullshit, and say it?

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm saying that in you.

[Ami Kozak]

Like, I have a friend.

[Noam Dwarman]

I've said everything.

[Ami Kozak]

No, I had a friend of mine shout out, Cam Higby. He's. He's a Prageru. Personality guy. But USS Liberty kept going around. Kept going around. USS Liberty, USS Liberty, everybody. It's just, and it's so tiresome and ridiculous, but he just actually made a really in depth video debunking the whole thing.

[Noam Dwarman]

Except that Dennis Prager thinks it's true.

[Ami Kozak]

Well, that they did attack it.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, Dennis Prager thinks it was attacked and that it was a conspiracy between America and Israel to keep it silent.

[Ami Kozak]

Is Dennis Prager an anti Semitic.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, he's Prager. No, he's not. No, that's what I'm saying. But I'm just saying Israel is.

[Ami Kozak]

But it provided a lot more conflict context. I mean, a video like that to me is much more potent and powerful in the audience that this is fighting for. Because you're saying it's really weird. This is troubling and resonating. What are you going to do about it? Do we go into our silos and raise our middle fingers? It depends on who I raise my middle finger to. Jake Shields, Jackson Hinkle. I. If I put them all in one box, it's a little hard to know. Take me seriously. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Noam Dwarman]

Did you see?

[Ami Kozak]

Are we not agreeing on that?

[Noam Dwarman]

Sort of. Do you. Did you see when I. On Twitter, when I was pressing Daryl Cooper for his sources?

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

I got back a deluge of what could only be called Nazi, like, anti Semitic tweets.

[Ami Kozak]

Twitter's the Third Reich aimed at me. Absolutely.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, but there's a ratio. It wasn't like a bunch of his people were taking issue with me. People were making arguments and a certain number of anti Semitic crazies. It was basically all anti Semitic crazies.

[Ami Kozak]

Damn broke. And there it was.

[Noam Dwarman]

Now this belies the case that we're making for Daryl Cooper because somehow while we're seeing the best of him, best in him and, and the best in him exists, we are shills if we don't also acknowledge. But we have to admit he's cultivated a seething neo Nazi like audience. And he kind of signals to them every so often with a tweet that sometimes he takes down saying the Third Reich was preferable to this Guten Morgen with a Nazi mug. And various, and various, you know, Arthur Kwan Lee, he says, the great Arthur Quan Lee, the artist who did his thing. But then we played. But there's a deeper, more unknown satanic spirituality that normalizes antinatalism, duplicitous sexual abnormalities, communism for the uninitiated, pedophilia and the sacrificing of God's non chosen cattle. And those practitioners worship at the altar of the synagogue of Satan because Talmudic Judaism is a stepping stone towards Satanism. Again, you'd think that Darrell, if he was who we like to think he was, would say, you know what? I don't need fucking Nazi bigots in my life. My life is hard enough already making these difficult arguments to try to get people to see a different side of the German people. What do I need right by my side? A fucking guy who's saying that you Judaism is a satanic religion and responsible for all the evil in the world, 100%. But he does have him right by his side. But he does.

[Ami Kozak]

Now, it doesn't help that he looks like an SS car. That's just the vibe.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, but dude, this is very serious.

[Ami Kozak]

No, I get it.

[Noam Dwarman]

And this is where the rubber meets the road in terms of manning up. Because no matter what you can say and point to that Daryl Cooper has said, which is mitigating, the fact is his actions speak louder than his words. If you have your arm around the worst kind of anti Semite there is and you big up him on Twitter, then maybe you're full of shit. And very, just very sophisticated when you say these other things that people can hang their hats on when they want to forgive you.

[Ami Kozak]

I've been thinking about this a lot. Do you think there's a difference between.

[Noam Dwarman]

You need to think longer and harder about it.

[Ami Kozak]

Do you think there's a difference?

[Noam Dwarman]

Come back.

[Ami Kozak]

Do you think there's a Difference between judging someone who's the messenger versus the message and that somebody could be out there putting messages out that spoke a lot of anti Semitism.

[Noam Dwarman]

Who's the worst anti black hater?

[Ami Kozak]

Hold on. Provide a lot of red meat for anti Semites. What I told Candace in our second conversation was like, just for the sake of the conversation, for it to go somewhere, I was like, look, you can tell me all day long you don't hate Jews in here in your heart. I don't know what's going on in here with you. I don't know what's going on here with you. And we waste a lot of time and energy trying to prove that. But that's irrelevant because the things you're saying, the ideas you're perpetuating are providing red meat and stoking the flames of anti Semitism all over the place. And the fact that you're not even aware of these tropes. You may claim ignorance. And you think you're coming up to these revelations of Jews disappearing, of Christians disappearing on Passover as if you first discovered it. You're revealing your profound ignorance at best and hatred at worst.

[Noam Dwarman]

You believe her?

[Ami Kozak]

What's that?

[Noam Dwarman]

That you believe she's actually.

[Ami Kozak]

I said profound ignorance at best or hatred.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's what you think about her? Yeah.

[Ami Kozak]

Oh, I've for. I think Candace is motivated mostly a lot by a creature of provocation, loyalty, clicks, and using anti Semitism as a way to elevate herself.

[Noam Dwarman]

All right, so anyway, I'm having known.

[Ami Kozak]

Having been familiar with a lot of the tactics and things.

[Noam Dwarman]

If you were.

[Ami Kozak]

I'm not excusing it, if you want my honest analysis, but there is.

[Noam Dwarman]

Is.

[Ami Kozak]

There is. There is some Jew hatred there, but it's more about. There's a problem using it.

[Noam Dwarman]

There was a problem. There was a problem with our people.

[Ami Kozak]

Talk to me.

[Noam Dwarman]

Because I don't know who the worst anti black. You know, let's take George. George Wallace or something. Let's say some legendary.

[Ami Kozak]

Sure.

[Noam Dwarman]

Black hater. Because that's kind of what Candace is. Is emulating. And I had them. Buddy. Buddy. I called them great. I. They. They were an artist. I used their artwork as my logo. All my followers. But I. And then I said something. No, no. You know, black people were treated very, very badly in slavery. I think it's terrible. I think it's terrible what happened to black people. Slavery. I can even, like, my voice catches when I discuss the passage and what the black people on the ship had to deal with. And people said, no, you don't understand. Noam. Don't look at. Didn't you hear him? He said he cares about black people. Who? I wouldn't kid. Nobody would be fooled. And you know who would be the first people to tell me I'm full of shit? The Jews.

[Ami Kozak]

Would you just generalize?

[Noam Dwarman]

You wouldn't buy this argument for five seconds if it wasn't about someone accused of anti Semitism. It's out in front. It's clear. If I put on that kind of racist person on my show or person like that, you wouldn't be saying, oh, no, no, no. You know, it's a marketplace of ideas.

[Ami Kozak]

So what if that's not what I said?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yucking it up with people who think it's awesome. And he's touching the third rails of black.

[Ami Kozak]

And you asked me what I think, deep down, I honestly believe deeply motivates Candace psychologically. I was just giving my honest assessment. Having seen her behavior and pattern of behavior, I think I attributed a lot to basically this phrase, which is years ago, Kanye tweeted, I like the way Candace Owens thinks. That gave her a big escalation in the profile. And now today, she likes the way Kanye west thinks, let me, let me.

[Noam Dwarman]

Let me, let me.

[Ami Kozak]

And therefore it's this.

[Noam Dwarman]

Let me.

[Ami Kozak]

A lot of it's a clout chase where it's like, look what I can use here to elevate my profile.

[Noam Dwarman]

But whatever, I'm not gonna wrap it up.

[Ami Kozak]

I'm not making an excuse for the anti Semitism.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm going to. I'm going to. Which is I'm going to give you the final yes shot into the exhaust chute in the Death Star. I like this analogy very often because I think very often with a lot of big arguments, actually there's a few small arguments that blow up the whole thing. All Joe Rogan would have to do is go out there and say, I think what Candace Owens is saying is disgusting. That's all. I like to have conversations. I think what Jake Shields has said, I just want to let my audience say, there's a lot of talk about me. The whole. I just want to let you guys know, I think that when they say this, this and that, and it's about how that J. Joe, believe me, I'm embarrassed that I was ever associated with these people. Don't for a second think that I have any sympathy for these people. I think these are anti Semites. And then he can go on with every fucking conversation he wants and let me. And let's bet money whether he'll do it or not.

[Ami Kozak]

I think that I agree would go a very long way.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's all he has to do.

[Ami Kozak]

All of that stuff would go a long way because when you play near the edge, it's important to draw the line and say, well, I'm not over there. As opposed to saying, oh, you know, as a. When, when you're. When you're playing in these territories especially. He did say at one point, no, it just seems like, man, there's all this anti. Semitism. And I remember early on he said it recently and he said it. But then he goes, but man, it's just like. Yeah, it's clearly just overreacting. And as I said in the beginning, we're not overreacting. We are reacting because we're not pretending it's not there. Just even though people pretended it wasn't there, it was there when it wasn't doesn't mean when it is there, it isn't.

[Noam Dwarman]

The overreacting also can be debatable.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And we don't know if we're overreacting. Well, look, but I'm saying that all he has to do to really solve much of this problem is just get out from behind this ambiguity that he's created. The same thing with Dave Smith.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

I mean, how.

[Ami Kozak]

But I will just tell you this.

[Noam Dwarman]

Dave Smith will go on Twitter and say Candace Owens is a truth teller. She's a truth eager. She's brave. Now she's.

[Ami Kozak]

She's coming into some other stuff I don't agree with.

[Noam Dwarman]

But yeah, no, so she's awesome. Like they have nothing but praise for her.

[Ami Kozak]

You won't see Joe do that much.

[Noam Dwarman]

Let me find one word of saying. But you know what I mean. Like any. I just want to be clear. She touched on thoroughs. I mean the Macron stuff, the stuff she's saying about. Look, the, the. The blood libel stuff. I want no part of that know why is it.

[Ami Kozak]

Why it's always softballing and making things digestible things. Like look, all that other stuff, the horrible stuff he'll never say and designate as horrible. It's just other stuff. I've seen him be very apol. Make, you know, soft language on that kind.

[Noam Dwarman]

The man becomes Clarence Darrell when somebody tries to defend the back.

[Ami Kozak]

Say something.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'll say like something.

[Ami Kozak]

I'll say something you'll agree with. I think which, which is. Look, I think as much as I've been saying that I think it comes from a place of strength, not weakness to rather than just harshly judge and call names or Smear, but actually step into the arena and debate these things. It's also a very sad thing that we have to. You would never tell a black person, you know, all this white supremacy is on the rise, but, like, you should just go out there and prove why you're not racially inferior because you're not. Like, don't let those ideas become dominant. No, it's the white supremacists who need to shut up and be silenced in a sense to be. We don't have to engage and grant them a response and dignify them with a response as to why these old ideas of eugenics or whatever should be brought back to the fold. It's a sad state of affairs that we have to do that as Jews and sort of say, prove you're not the bad guy. I don't like that posture. It's a sad state of affairs that we find ourselves in, but then you have to go from there. And I think post October 7, I was like, hey, if you're not on our side here, screw you. I don't want to have anything to do with you. If you can't see that we are the morally superior position here as far as being attacked, like, I don't really. Like, I can't redeem. You can't see if I'm not interested. And I was very much into the echo chamber of that just for the. The Chizuk and the strength of needing to be. But now, 18 months in, all of a sudden finding that mainstream platforms like Rogan, like the podcast space, which I used to really celebrate as places where people can be free to discuss ideas and we're on the right side of a lot of issues. When I find them being swayed on the wrong side of a lot of issues, I can decide to sort of do the quote woke thing I hate of just of just criticizing and calling the names. Or I can, you know, I think. Do you. Do you have a better shot at making Joe more sympathetic to what we're saying or less sympathetic based on what you're trying to do? My. My point is, if you want somebody to actually say those things that you're saying, it's better to give a benefit of the doubt.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I gave the benefit of the doubt. But why would he not be more sympathetic based on what I'm saying? What. What did I say?

[Ami Kozak]

Because I think people don't like to be told what to do, even if it's the right position to take. All right, well, you know what I'm saying? Every time you tried it with Dave Smith, as obvious as it is for him to just say, just say these people, Dan Berzerian, Jake Shields, other words, people, you're right. But the fact that you take a position to demand he say something is where he's just averse to doing it. And I think that.

[Noam Dwarman]

And how do you think he looked?

[Ami Kozak]

Bad? I don't think it's.

[Noam Dwarman]

Do you think that contributes to convincing the middle ground that you're speaking about when they, when they see the guy. When you see, when someone sees an opponent in debate taking an untenable position. Yeah, I think that's the most persuasive you can ever be.

[Ami Kozak]

Who's being untenable?

[Noam Dwarman]

Dave, I think began to look ridiculous when he sees this video of Candace. That video of Candace and that video of Candace, I think Darryl Cooper found the same situation as well.

[Ami Kozak]

But you don't want to be giving into the caricature that. Look, I think Jewish organizations for a long time, especially on the left, made all these demands and took this position of demanding people comply with certain things and standards. And that can turn a lot of people off, even if the ideas and the aims are good and the intentions are good. So demanding Dave, do something rather than pointing out, I think there's a slight difference in that flavor that makes it a lot more digestible for the masses. Even though to me and to you it looks ridiculous. To a lot of people it looks like, man, why are they all trying to just demand everybody condemn this anti Semitism and that anti Semitism rather than just sticking to proving what's true and what's not true? To me, proving what's true and what's not true is far more persuasive for the likes of Joe Rogan, for the likes of these audiences that they have that are massive.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, no, this is where you're 100% wrong.

[Ami Kozak]

You think so? 100%.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes. I'll tell you why. Because what conspiracy theories are, as opposed to an argument about vaccines are trying to prove a negative. Yes, you can eventually, through double blind experimentation and data get to the end of an argument on polio or the vaccines or whatever it is. And I guess maybe there could still be some disagreement within that, but at least it is not a, it's something that can be proven, peer reviewed scientific studies, you can. A drug has to prove its efficacy. I cannot prove that Jewish, that Christian babies are not disappearing on Passover.

[Ami Kozak]

Well, it's.

[Noam Dwarman]

I cannot prove that Israel is not.

[Ami Kozak]

A nation of pedophilesifiable because it's A.

[Noam Dwarman]

Conspiracy theory I cannot prove.

[Ami Kozak]

Prove, I agree.

[Noam Dwarman]

Disprove any of the things that Jake Shields says, any of the things that Candace Owens says, anything.

[Ami Kozak]

But what you can demonstrate is that rather than gathering data and being curious and then drawing conclusions, what they are doing is drawing conclusions and then gathering data and evidence to support it.

[Noam Dwarman]

But what I can say.

[Ami Kozak]

You can point that out.

[Noam Dwarman]

What I can say to somebody who purports to be a member of the civilized world, I can say to them, listen, you're playing footsie with these people. Do you believe what they're saying or not? Go on record. If you want to go on record, say, yeah, you know what? I think what Candace is saying could be true. Fine. You still have your show. I would not even. I would defend you against anybody who tried to argue that Spotify should. Should pull your contract. I don't. That's not. It's not about deplatforming, but go on record. You believe it or not. That's all I want to know. Dave, you believe this or not. You don't believe it, then why are you big upping her? Do. Should I infer from that that you don't believe it, but you don't. You think it's harmless, you know, gossip stuff. It has no effect in the real world. It's like believing, you know, I don't know, something. I can't think of something like that Paul is dead, you know, like some dumb.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Like this is serious stuff to us. You don't think it's serious? Gone. It's fine. Say you don't think it's serious.

[Ami Kozak]

He does. Dave, a lot of times says, I don't think it's that big a deal.

[Noam Dwarman]

But, but stop with.

[Ami Kozak]

That's the problem.

[Noam Dwarman]

Stop with no, but he won't say that. What? Whether he thinks it's anti Semitic conspiracy theories. He won't say. He'll say to Nick Fuentes, I don't think you hate Jews, dude.

[Ami Kozak]

I'm with you on that. That's, to me where the biggest moral failing on his behavior has been. And posturing in this. Pat. It's not just the critic where I think he's wrong on Israel, I mean, that's kind of fair game. The other stuff is not so forgivable because when you're playing in this arena and then you provide this sort of kind of coverage by saying, I'm the cool Jew that's going to cozy up to these people and make them digestible, I mean, you have to be responsible for that. I get it.

[Noam Dwarman]

It is time to cry a bit. Little alarm. Tucker Carlson.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Is fully in this camp by my.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Friend Candace Owens, who's one of the.

[Ami Kozak]

Nicest people I've ever met, actually.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah. She's very smart.

[Ami Kozak]

She's incredible.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

She, you know, she and everyone's always Candace Owens a hater.

[Ami Kozak]

Candace Owens is the opposite of a hater, but she's a very kind person.

[Noam Dwarman]

But Tucker Carlson is text messaging with the president on a daily basis. If our 78 year old president should die, J.D. vance will have Tucker Carlson by his side. J.D. vance has. Has talked complimentarily about Alex Jones.

[Ami Kozak]

The more you attack Israel, the stronger it gets because the cult that runs it manipulates and controls the white supremacist and all the groups that then come in. Not, not, not all of them. So. So there's a bigger dialectic here. And there's good people in Israel too.

[Noam Dwarman]

Alex Jones just last week said don't criticize Israel. It only courage. It only encourages the demon like cult that runs the play. Like, oh my God.

[Ami Kozak]

He really said that no one was crazy. Yeah. That's unbelievable. So that is unbelievable.

[Noam Dwarman]

This, this is an entity. It's all connected at the hip.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah. I might.

[Noam Dwarman]

And it seems like you're finding every reason to avoid conflict.

[Ami Kozak]

Me?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Ami Kozak]

What are you talking about? I debated Dave on Candace Owens.

[Noam Dwarman]

All right.

[Ami Kozak]

I went on the show and risked like looking really bad, but I went into the lion's den and debated him and Candace. Candace three times. Called her out for it. But I think it's more constructive to do that in some cases than to just write an article or make ourselves feel virtuous and good about it.

[Noam Dwarman]

It's not working.

[Ami Kozak]

I also think that Joe is just in a slight. Is not Tucker Carlson. I don't think they're the same animal.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't think he is either.

[Ami Kozak]

Right. And I'm so. I'm not giving a pass. I'm just like looking at what I'm.

[Noam Dwarman]

Looking at and giving you in a way that's worse. What I'm, that's what like I don't think he is either. But every moment that he doesn't. That he shows.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

That he doesn't have the reflex to separate himself from these people. Then I have to say to myself because I'm not a mindless person. Oh. Like I, I don't. I. He doesn't appear like I don't want it. But, but something's going on here. Because most other people would make sure to their audience don't Think like Phil Donahue used to have on Grandmaster of the kkk. Nobody ever thought Phil Donahue might be sympathetic to the grandmaster.

[Ami Kozak]

Right.

[Noam Dwarman]

This is different.

[Ami Kozak]

Do you think that there's a reaction to Joe from our side that's not constructive and not productive?

[Noam Dwarman]

Some people, yeah. What.

[Ami Kozak]

And what would that look like?

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, calling him an anti Semite.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And calling for him to be the platform taken off Twitter. Like. Like, I mean, taking off Spotify.

[Ami Kozak]

But then I could look at you and say, that's just cowardly not to call for that. How could you say that? He's out there kibitzing with these guys and rubbing feet. He platform.

[Noam Dwarman]

Because. Because just to play devil's advice. Yeah. Because we also at the same time have competing principles that we believe that free people have a right to say whatever they want.

[Ami Kozak]

Mm.

[Noam Dwarman]

So as much as I wouldn't mind that, you know, Candace Owens, her power is cut to her apartment. She can't think so much like lightning struck, and she can no longer broadcast. I'd be happy. That'd be a happy outcome. I understand.

[Ami Kozak]

Well, Zionist control the weather.

[Noam Dwarman]

I understand. She has a right to do this. And I have to defend her right to do this.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

I have to defend everybody's right to do it.

[Ami Kozak]

Right. So I don't really think we're disagreeing much at all.

[Noam Dwarman]

We're disagreeing very much because their right to do it has nothing to do with our responsibility to fight them.

[Ami Kozak]

Sure. But what is the substance of that criticism in that fight? What is the substance of that judgmental position?

[Noam Dwarman]

What we went through the whole thing.

[Ami Kozak]

We went through it. I just don't see where there's that much difference. I think you just. I just. I. I'm putting these people in slight. On the spectrum of the worst anti Semites over here and the movable middle.

[Noam Dwarman]

You'Re very concerned with intent.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

And intent. Absolutely. Intent is very much important when it comes to punishment. Intent is not so important when it comes to results. Meaning that if Tylenol is selling poison pills, whether they intended to do it or not is really doesn't matter in terms of our five alarm fire of having to deal with it. As a matter of fact, we deal with it in an identical way.

[Ami Kozak]

Sure. But that's a very precise binary thing. It's a poison pill that causes immediate harm.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes.

[Ami Kozak]

A conversation with sloppy points made is.

[Noam Dwarman]

A little bit different when we're seeing this stuff being disseminated from the most important show in the world. When you're seeing a super spreader as Sam Harris has of. I mean, unless you think that, you know, know what Ian Carroll said is not misinformation, a super spreader.

[Ami Kozak]

I made two videos calling it out precisely of misinformation.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes. It's important for us to know, as we're taking the judge of taking the measure of the man, whether it was intentional or not, whether it's naive, ignorant, whatever it is, that that matters for that conversation. It matters not for our reaction to the harm. It is to the danger of it. The danger of it is identical. If Joe Rogan's show becomes a conduit for these poison pills, then we have to react to the poison, not to the intention.

[Ami Kozak]

But if next week. I remember when he had someone on, maybe it was Kurt Metzger or something, and Joe was like, I mean, it just. This was Israel related. He's like, it just kind of looks like a genocide. Just kind of looks like that. And everybody wanted to jump on and say, we all knew it. Joe's showing his true cards. The next week, he had Coleman Hughes on and he said, I appreciate your perspective. That's really.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, no, actually that's not what happened.

[Ami Kozak]

What's not.

[Noam Dwarman]

So first of all, let's. Let's say again, yes, he can. I'm not talking about calling it genocide as much as that infuriates me.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes, that is, I use that example because that was the example.

[Noam Dwarman]

That is a debatable position. Right, But. And I know Kurt Metzger very well. We're friends.

[Ami Kozak]

And.

[Noam Dwarman]

And then the next week, Coleman went on and Coleman crowbar. His comment about Israel and Joe answer was not, was it appreciate perspective? I think it was more like, well, I guess I don't know that much about it.

[Ami Kozak]

He said, I appreciate your perspective.

[Unidentified Speaker 7]

What's unique about this war, unlike every other war that I could think of, is you have an army in Hamas that has perfected the art of embedding itself and meshing itself with civilians so that you cannot hit them without hitting the people around them. Other armies have done this, but none have perfected it to the extent that Hamas has. No army that I know of in military history, has had 15 years to build 300 miles of tunnel underneath a city that they don't use to shelter the civilians, but they use to shelter themselves so that they can operate right under a kindergarten, right under a mosque. So this is a challenge no army has faced. And so that's what makes this war different. And yes, I agree with all of the absolute tragedy and suffering of the Palestinian people, but what creates that is the way Hamas fights. And either we can say one of two things. We can either say, well, Israel doesn't have a clean shot, and so they have to let Hamas get away with it because it's too much to bear. But then we are essentially creating a situation where terrorists have found the perfect solution, which is that you can cross the border, go house to house slaughtering your enemies, and then hide behind your own people, and they can do nothing about it. It's a perfect strategy. Can we live in a world where we allow that to be an acceptable strategy? I don't think so. And it's very. It's very ugly to watch. It's. It's heartbreaking. And I completely understand why people don't think the way I think when they see the videos. I completely get it. But I don't think we can actually live in a world where that's allowed to be a strategy.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

I appreciate your perspective.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Yeah, you clearly know more about it than I do. But also, one of the fears is that people wanted. The people in power in Israel, wanted Hamas to be in power in Gaza because they wanted an enemy.

[Noam Dwarman]

And then Coleman has never been on that show again. Coleman did three shows pretty close to each other. Coleman had a pretty powerful short clip there where he defended Israel. I don't even think he was really saying it. He wasn't, like, really refuting anything that Rogan had said. He just. And that was a very good show. Yeah. Beginning to end. The best show, I think, that any they ever had together. Coleman has never been on that show again.

[Ami Kozak]

And that's intentional, you think?

[Noam Dwarman]

I have no idea.

[Ami Kozak]

We don't know.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't know.

[Ami Kozak]

If he had Barry Weiss on next week to unpack all this, would that change all the things he's done up until now? In your. I'm just curious, like, what would be comforting beside this, you know, to.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, sure, yeah. I mean, there's many ways. There's many ways to skin the cat of, I think, adjusting the court course, correcting your thing.

[Ami Kozak]

But I think just as important as judging it and fairly and criticizing it fairly. It's also important for us to say, why have people that seem to be so sensible and curious on this, on a lot of these issues moved. Why have. What's been going on, what's happening?

[Noam Dwarman]

Okay. But the most important thing is this is really Sam Harris's point.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

I keep trying to avoid the Spider man analogy. With great power comes great responsibility, but with great power comes great responsibility.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I think what all that's. Really. All Sam was saying is that when you are the biggest media force in the world.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

When you want to start presenting truly radioactive information, you have some obligation to make sure that you have at least a. A, you know, arguable case that you think it's true. True enough that you think it's. It's. It's likely enough true that you think it's. You're doing a service by injecting it into the public debate.

[Ami Kozak]

But you also made the Phil Donahue argument. We don't necessarily think the guest agrees with the host.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, because Donahue made it very clear. But I'm saying. But so if you're going to say, listen, I think that. I think that. I think polio is fake. And, you know, and all that comes from that. I think so, you know, we assume. Well, we assume that he said. Well, he would say to himself, I think I'm doing a good thing if I can get fewer people to believe in polio, fewer kids to vaccinate their kids. You know, just. And that's a very. It seems to me, this one. This is why I feel like I'm being gaslighted. It seems to be, obviously, that everybody understands that you need to be careful with something like that. And if you don't have the expertise yourself, as Sam said, then you hire somebody to.

[Ami Kozak]

We happen to find ourselves in a world where the most popular media format right now is casual, loose schmooze and conversation. That's what it is, whether we like it or not. It's not curated, it's not careful, it's sloppy. And millions of people are into that right now, and it's hard to demand that format change.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm not demanding anything else.

[Ami Kozak]

Well, you're saying it's. They have a responsibility. It's hard to tell comics what to do.

[Noam Dwarman]

This is not the first time I've known that. A few years from now, everyone's gonna look back at me and say, he was right all along. I've been through these things a couple times already.

[Ami Kozak]

What's your track record? What else?

[Noam Dwarman]

I was right about Russiagate. I was right about Louis CK I was right about. I was right about any Mueller. I was right about any. Any number of. Of things.

[Periel]

You were right about COVID I was.

[Ami Kozak]

Right about COVID What did you say about COVID actually?

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, I was right early on that I said that. That this was serious and that, you know, we should be.

[Ami Kozak]

Be diligent and prudent.

[Periel]

You were right about Antisemitism.

[Noam Dwarman]

And I. Oh, I predicted the. What's happening now. I actually predicted. But I was right that at some point I was right about everything about COVID as opposed to Dr. Bhattacharya, who was actually mostly wrong. And they treat him like he was some kind of oracle.

[Ami Kozak]

When you said that, you said it was like a lab leak out of China kind of stuff. Or were you. When you.

[Noam Dwarman]

I always assumed it probably was a loud leak, but that was not one of my hot issues. I thought it was ridiculous that you trying to censor.

[Periel]

You're right about masks.

[Noam Dwarman]

I was very early that I don't.

[Periel]

Understand what the fuck the problem is to just say, like, I don't agree with this stuff. I'm going to have these people on air. I'm going to talk to them. But I think the X, Y and Z is garbage. Like, that's all he really has to say. If that's what he thinks.

[Ami Kozak]

Right.

[Periel]

Like, it's not that complicated.

[Ami Kozak]

It would make us feel better. There's no question. It just would.

[Periel]

I mean, it seems like a really simple kind of statement, like, this is not complicated. This is not.

[Ami Kozak]

You know comedians better than anybody, and they don't like to be told how to have conversations.

[Periel]

But that's neither here nor there. Nobody has to tell him anything.

[Ami Kozak]

Well, I'm saying you're like women if you want to. If you want to appeal to people sitting. Sympathy. Though I would caution against making demands.

[Periel]

I'm not trying to.

[Ami Kozak]

You're saying you're not doing that, but we are kind of.

[Noam Dwarman]

You're strategizing now. Strategy is a different conversation.

[Ami Kozak]

Who. That's. I am talking most of it. The disagreement here is. I'm calling out tactics versus substance. We all. We do agree about the substance. I elucidated that in the very beginning of this conversation. All my concerns. We all. We do share a lot of the same concerns. I am talking tactics now. And if the way you're trying. The way you're trying. The way you're trying to appeal to somebody is by making demands and they keep getting further away, maybe there's a different way to do that.

[Noam Dwarman]

Ian Carroll's significant.

[Ami Kozak]

It's significant what's going on. And I'm not denying that, and I'm not. Not judging it.

[Noam Dwarman]

But in Carroll's following. Yeah, check this. I forget the number. Sky skyrocketed on every platform after his Rogan performance.

[Ami Kozak]

Oh, yeah, this is a good. I want to make this point, too. Go ahead, go ahead. That especially when you get On a, on a position of condemnation of such things. Peterson made this point when the woke left came after him illegitimately. Even if we're trying to come after people legitimately, he said that whenever there's a woke mob, he's like, I figured out a way to monetize social justice warriors, you know, because when they come after me, you know, I just ride out the storm and then I come out bigger and stronger than ever, you know, and that's great when the figure is good and the ideas are good. It's really bad when the ideas are bad and nefarious. So the way we react to these things can have a very opposite intended effect by making the problem much bigger and making the guys audiences much bigger.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, I think it's the opposite and.

[Ami Kozak]

I think it applies if people respond to that. People are familiar. They're so ready to get rid of all this woke crap that when we look like a, you know, like when you posture in the same way, you just, you just made my point for me. You said Ian Carroll's audience exploded.

[Noam Dwarman]

Avoid bromides. So, so, yes.

[Ami Kozak]

What was that?

[Noam Dwarman]

If somebody, if somebody is little known, like avoid, like, like, just like patent rules of thumb. If somebody's little known, yes. Sometimes it's better. Just let it go. Nobody noticed it. So don't. You don't call attention to it.

[Ami Kozak]

Right, right.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's not what's going on here in Cal. He was on the Rogan show. Now Peterson is saying, when they came at me, they made me stronger.

[Ami Kozak]

Why?

[Noam Dwarman]

Because Peterson had the better of the arguments. So by bringing that attention, he was able to vanquish the other side by exposing them. Because he, you know, really handily handled those, all those arguments. Don't assume that if the world came at Dave or Joe or any of these people that they would have Peterson's look. Because I don't believe they have Peterson level arguments to defend themselves. I don't think there's good arguments for that. They're going to be able to say, like, yeah, I know she's, you know, a Nazi, but I think it's okay to say she's awesome and stepping on third rails.

[Ami Kozak]

But they are having Peterson's luck. Candace and Ian, you just said blew up after people try to come after them.

[Noam Dwarman]

No, I didn't say they came after him. I said Ian blew up because of the exposure that he got on the Rogan show.

[Ami Kozak]

And did the attacks on him or people trying to take him down make him more popular or less, or Daryl, or Daryl for that matter.

[Noam Dwarman]

More popular or less, I don't know.

[Ami Kozak]

But I, I, I, I would say more. That's the thing. I want them to be less popular. I want these people to be dwindled in their influence. Listen, nobody, I think we can step up to the plate and own and retake the narrative. That's my point. It's from a place nobody heard confrontation, not from whittling away.

[Noam Dwarman]

None of us had heard of Ian Cowell before he was on Rogan show.

[Ami Kozak]

If you're on Twitter, you do.

[Noam Dwarman]

I had never heard of him and almost nobody I knew had ever heard of him. Yeah, it was, it was so. He was so little known that one people, one guy was debunking. I'm sure he saw maybe he's a Russian plant because like misfit patriot. How do you, how do you, yeah. How do you account for his sudden popularity? Yeah, right.

[Ami Kozak]

People think there's some nefarious things going on there for ratioing.

[Noam Dwarman]

I don't believe that. So. But somehow he came to Rogan's attention and Rogan launched him. And so you're saying the question, well, after the Rogan launch, is it a net positive to complain about it? I think even if there's some short term extra exposure the guy gets by complaining about him, like I said, it won't stop itself. We cannot just get open field. Run.

[Ami Kozak]

I agree. We agree. And if you have this small little thing on you and you're like, hey, it's nothing, and you check it out and there's no cancer or anything like that, you could just ignore it. Then it gets bigger and all of a sudden it makes itself known. Like, what do you do? So I would say confront it.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, I would think that's the thing. Like she knows like two years ago, before October 7th. Yeah. I was crying alarm about this stuff in the podcast. Fear not. Not actually I didn't. I thought Charlottesville was a nothing burger. Listen, the unite the right market. As I started to hear these conspiracy theories on podcasts.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Before October 7th, I started to really worry about it.

[Ami Kozak]

Were you worried about anti Semitism in the Trump era?

[Noam Dwarman]

During, not just. No, in the Trump era. No.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah. In 2016, when everybody was saying tiki torches. I wasn't.

[Periel]

That's the ring you were worried about. Anti Semitism on the left.

[Noam Dwarman]

On the left, as a matter of fact, always.

[Periel]

I was always worried about it on the right. I called that. I just want to say my, my.

[Noam Dwarman]

My, my response to people were complaining about Trump was, was that come on, with enemies like Trump we don't need friends. Like, like he's, well, he's a great.

[Ami Kozak]

Guy now, now you love him. Don't you know him? And you know that so well. And we love that. But look, Noam, we are, we are creatures of Jew. The Jews know survival. That's our thing. We're about to go into Passover Pesach and it's a manual for survival. That's what Eric Weinstein talks about. So as concerning as it all is and it's keeping us up like we know how to survive and if you activate us in survival mode, I think.

[Noam Dwarman]

Do not be part of the. Go back and listen again what Sam Harris said. He did not argue for de platforming Joe Rogan. He argued for responsible dissemination of consequential information.

[Ami Kozak]

Did you see Gadzad's response to it?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yes, I thought he completely straw manned Rogan and.

[Ami Kozak]

You mean Harris.

[Noam Dwarman]

I keep doing that.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

That's the thing of age. Yeah, that's a really straw man Harris and yeah, that's, that's, that's where I feel about it. I don't, I don't, I don't know.

[Ami Kozak]

Sorry if my position let you down.

[Noam Dwarman]

It did. Sam's weakest, Sam's weakest point, apparently weakest point was that he was against, against Lex Friedman interviewing Putin. But you know, he had a, he had a point there too. Meaning like you're not, unless you're prepared to go to Russia and treat this guy to a real interview, knowing that he poisons journalists and surrounded by, you know, then you are in a sense going to play into the guy's hands. And if you think that he is a force for bad, then you don't want to play into his hands. And that's a, that's a general moral point of behavior for all of us. We should not knowingly do something that leads to bad for people or for the world. So now you may think it's not, you may not know there's various, you know, nuances there, but if you're being honest with yourself, you say, you know what, I'd love to do this interview but I know I have a huge audience and this is just going to be his way of just spreading this stuff. And I, and I'm not going to be able to interrupt him and correct him and I'm not going to take that.

[Ami Kozak]

But I think that maybe I should.

[Noam Dwarman]

Maybe I shouldn't do it.

[Ami Kozak]

I think that with love we can actually change the war needs now. Well, he was weird. He's like, I'M conflicted about interviewing Netanyahu, but Putin I'm excited about. I was like, okay, that's a little funny. Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

Who was conflicted?

[Ami Kozak]

He told. I think he told. I think he was saying that to Douglas.

[Noam Dwarman]

No. What is that about?

[Periel]

Out.

[Noam Dwarman]

Because Netanyahu, you can ask him whatever you want. You can challenge him.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, yeah. It's fair enough. But I mean, people used to do this. I mean, Larry King would go every. I mean, these, like, journalists of legacy in the 90s would interview world leaders and terrorists.

[Periel]

Well, you know, somebody who interviewed Saddam Hussein or something.

[Ami Kozak]

I mean, this is what was like, part of.

[Noam Dwarman]

But they would challenge them. Yes, they would challenge them. And actually Ted Turner, Ted Turner had to be careful.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Careful.

[Ami Kozak]

They're in a cave in Afghanistan. You know, they gotta, Gotta be careful. So one could say, hey, we know the journalist doesn't approve. But it's, it's interesting to profile how these people think. And if Lex can do that.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah, who knows?

[Ami Kozak]

Maybe it's.

[Noam Dwarman]

The proof will be in the pudding. If he's gonna interview Putin, we'll see how he did. I mean, Tucker Carlson did not do a very good interview.

[Ami Kozak]

He was a great guy.

[Noam Dwarman]

Shut up.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Periel]

Since we're like 4,000 hours over, can I ask a question? Question. What did you think about Leslie Stahl's interview on 60 Minutes of the hostages?

[Noam Dwarman]

I didn't see it. G. No, we talk about that. Listen.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes.

[Noam Dwarman]

We can go a little bit longer if you want.

[Ami Kozak]

Just.

[Noam Dwarman]

I have what we did wrong. We meeting the Jewish people. And again. Oh, by the way, speaking of what I was right about, I. I can show you my chat saying this on like October 9th, telling people, avoid the hot. The, the atrocity porn. It's not going to convince anybody. I literally tweet. You remember saying that? Because we felt, look what they did to us. This should be our argument. How can you oppose us after you see what they've done to us? And I, and I.

[Ami Kozak]

It's gonna backfire because once the optics come out the other way. Well, I said, we become the villains.

[Noam Dwarman]

One thing I said was, okay, but we were about to see daily George Floyd videos and a worldwide defund. The police reaction. You remember me saying that?

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

But what I also said was it's not an argument if Israel is doing wrong by the Palestinians. That argument is not. Nobody's disabused of that idea by the fact that the Palestinians did something awful, that they committed atrocities. What we needed to do over the last 18 months and we didn't was explain to people. Not that October 7th was an atrocity, because the news did that for us, was explained to people. Why we've tried to make peace, we've tried the two state solution. They are the ones who don't want peace. Every man, woman and child should know the five bullet points of the Israeli position by heart. They don't know any of them. We squandered all the attention by trying to please. Don't you see what they did to us? Don't you see what they did to us? And of course, inconveniently, some of the things we said they did to us didn't even happen. Which really made us like sound like we're a crying wolf. And then we just got into this proven negative debate again with whether there were rapes or there weren't rapes.

[Ami Kozak]

Insane just to get into that.

[Noam Dwarman]

And it got us nowhere. But when Bill Clinton comes on and say, listen, I was at the meeting and we offered them 99% of the state and to this day they still won't take that. People say, really? Wait, you guys are doing October 7th even though you were offered all that? I didn't know you were offered. Oh, you were attacked. The reason the territories are occupied are because they attacked Israel. You mean Israel didn't take the territories and then Israel tried to give it back right after and they were turned down. Like these things actually matter to people. People get. We didn't do that at all. And the result was predictable.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, I know.

[Noam Dwarman]

Lost the argument.

[Ami Kozak]

You lose the argument also because I think you have to defend yourself and not have to worry about defending what you're doing when you have a. Asserting a position of strength and saying, we have to do this, it's going to be ugly, it's going to be bad. And I think when Israel contradicts its own position or weakens its own position when it tries to say Hamas is completely responsible for all of this, and yet we are also responsible by trying to do this sort of left wing posture of we're sending humanitarian aid and we're trying to help. Look at the optics, like own the fact that you have to do what you have to do. It's horrible. War is horrible. You didn't want this. But I always like the second you get on the news and you say like, we're sending 800 trucks. It's not 300 trucks, you're lying. It's like trucks, no trucks. You're at war with Palestine, with Hamas, with the Gaza Strip, but you're not.

[Noam Dwarman]

The Biden administration gave Israel no choice at various.

[Ami Kozak]

But I just also think that was a part of weakening, because when people see that they feel gaslit, they're like, what are you talking about? And I think having to own the position that like, we have to do this, we have to defend our citizens, we can't compromise the security of our people in our state for the altruistic aims of trying to help the civilians of Gaza. We have to put our country and our civilians as paramount and that's our priority. That's what the responsibility of any Western government is. And so when you try to do that and claim Hamas is responsible, but then also take responsibility for the wellbeing, you're just kind of weak. You're like one hand, you know, you're taking water out of the lake here and pouring it into here and you're not actually gaining any momentum because people might hate you, but they'll respect the fact that you're doing what you have to do.

[Noam Dwarman]

The truth is we don't know whether it was the right thing to do. It wasn't an immoral thing to do based on what was known prospectively. But in retrospect, if nothing positive comes from all this, if it resets almost to the status quo ante and rockets start coming again, it's going to be hard to justify all those what Israel's response. It will be hard to say they did the right thing in retrospect. Given 2030, you know, all the innocent people that died and suffered and have no homes, it can only be considered to have been a success if there's something good to show for it. If it resets to exactly the same situation as we have.

[Ami Kozak]

I agree with that.

[Noam Dwarman]

It's gonna be very difficult to say we did the right thing, but I want to just repeat myself. It doesn't mean it was an immoral thing going forward because you don't know the future.

[Ami Kozak]

Yes. But at the end of the day, I think war, if you're gonna do it, it has to be ruthless and quick and not be dragged out for 18 months. You have to do it to the point where you do it to win and the standard is victory and self defense to secure your citizens in your state. Now, the hostages made that also much more complex and difficult. But I think the extent to which Israel was not restraining itself, you know.

[Noam Dwarman]

Our argument there is a little bit BS ish.

[Ami Kozak]

What's that?

[Noam Dwarman]

Because Hamas made it somewhat easier for us by not releasing release us, meaning Israel. I'm speaking in full, full dual loyalty mode now. Hamas Made it easier for Israel by not releasing the hostages. However, if Hamas had released all the hostages on day one, Israel still had all the same reasons that they had to go in there.

[Ami Kozak]

I meant they made it complicated because it. You don't know. You don't want to compromise the lives of the hostages that are there while you're in garden.

[Noam Dwarman]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Ami Kozak]

I meant that as a bombardment of Gaza. When you're trying to destroy Hamas, I'm.

[Noam Dwarman]

Referring to as many. I know, I know.

[Ami Kozak]

You're saying it's all about just resting with.

[Noam Dwarman]

Well, if you want to stop them, just release the hostages. No, no, don't. No.

[Ami Kozak]

Release the hostages and surrender unequivocally. Surrender. You cannot be here anymore. You must be gone. Yes, that's the.

[Noam Dwarman]

Surrender is the key.

[Ami Kozak]

I meant the hostages made it complicated for Israel militarily because they're putting them at risk when they have to do it. But I actually think you get more hostages back. Back when Israel. This part of the world doesn't respond to restraint. They respond to power.

[Noam Dwarman]

No. No. Part of the world responses. No.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noam Dwarman]

No hostage taker response. Correct.

[Ami Kozak]

And I think that's when you start getting hostages back, when you start to say that Israel is unapologetically going to assert its strength and do what it has to do. And the fact that they didn't do that, and maybe that's because of Biden, and maybe that's because of restrictions put on Israel. I don't really know. I'm not a military tactician.

[Noam Dwarman]

You. You show me that. You show me somebody. It's amazing how things are predictable. You show me somebody with a vocal fry, and I can guarantee you they're for restraint.

[Ami Kozak]

Full circle.

[Noam Dwarman]

I'm not kidding.

[Ami Kozak]

I don't know Matthew McConaughey. You think he's full. Restrained.

[Noam Dwarman]

I know. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's amazing how these things do.

[Ami Kozak]

Correlate, but maybe Matthew Kamahana, he's got a big fry and he would support us. That's what he would do. Especially using a Lincoln. It's not a. Not a tank. Full circle. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was some hefty schmoozing right there. Now we got into the weeds. What's good? Okay.

[Noam Dwarman]

Where do you live?

[Ami Kozak]

I'm in Jersey.

[Noam Dwarman]

In Jersey.

[Ami Kozak]

I'm close.

[Noam Dwarman]

All right. All right. Good night, everybody.

[Ami Kozak]

Thank you.

[Noam Dwarman]

Oh, let us podcast comedy seller dot com. And what's your Twitter information?

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Fertile ground for that kind of, like, controlled reverse opposition. Whatever. Psyops. And that's where for me the bottom line is, can I corroborate it with primary sources? And Q is the definition of no, of course I can. It's like, what is it? A time traveler that's coming back that's telling us how to save the world or something like, I don't understand.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Do you think stuff like Pizzagate, like when they, when they had that guy come in and I already fire up that shot, I felt like that was a great way to put a halt to all the looking into the podestic emails. That was because then all of a sudden it's a kook thing. Now it's a crazy person and a dangerous person because he's got a gun. You're causing dangerous people to take their guns.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Just like with the vaccines. It's like you're. It's a danger. They always have to make it dangerous, right?

[Noam Dwarman]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

It's dangerous to say that this might have side effects. Right.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Because if you read those emails.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Exactly right.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Those emails are bananas and they're not explained. They're talking about young kids who are going to be coming to a party to have fun. They're talking.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

They'll be in the pool and they will be there for sure. 65, 000 worth of hot dogs flown from Chicago for a White House party.

[Noam Dwarman]

It.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

The whole thing is like very weird.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Did you ever see the archived Instagram post from James Oliphantis's Instagram? No, because that's a dark place. So that there's so many layers to Pizza gate that they tried to cover up intentionally for very good reason.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Well, how about the logos?

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Well, the thing is I. I avoid in the way. In way I've talked about it. I've avoided all the symbols and logos and even some of the pizza stuff stuff because I think there's so much more ripe, clear evidence that is way more powerful. And James Olafant's Instagram account is a great example.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Where can you find it online?

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

So you cannot find it on Instagram anymore. It's only been archived onto other sites, which is kind of sketchy because it's like, how do I know you're not adding photos and stuff? So you kind of have to dig and dig and dig and cross reference over and over and over to make sure that you're getting sort of like the consensus because everyone watched as it happened. So people like Liz Croakin, people like, like Alex Jones, like they saw these things come out and they. You can find plenty of different archives of all of James Oliphantis Instagram posts, and they're things like photos of children with their arms taped to tables. And the caption is, looks like a fun time. And then people that have always been commenting on his posts, like the people that are interacting with his posts all the time, have even weirder Instagrams where it's like, kill room and there's a coffin that's open and things like that. There's like a photo of, like, a walk in freezer and it's like, like, man, looks like you've been having a fun weekend. Things like that that are just super dark. And a bunch of babies and a bunch of symbolism. A bunch of children. And it's all photos on their Instagram and plain date, like daylight. And they all got scrubbed, obviously.

[Ami Kozak]

Jesus.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

And that's not to mention Podesta's art collection and the Marina Abramovich connections. It goes on and on and on and on and on.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

And we're talking about the Clintons with the Haiti scandals, with the cocaine in Arkansas. It's like the.

[Noam Dwarman]

The.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

The thing is that we sound crazy. I sound crazy to someone that doesn't do their own research. Because you just start. There's so many layers of, like, crazy that's happened with some of these people.

[Ami Kozak]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

That if you don't know the history of a person like Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton, it's really easy to think, oh, that's just so insane that you would think that they would be involved in it. And first of all, they frame it. In the articles about Pizzagate, they say Hillary Clinton was the mastermind of a global pedophile sex trafficking ring, all headquartered in this pizza shop, which is not what anyone ever claimed.

[Ami Kozak]

Right.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

So as soon as you can discredit that, you discredit the whole thing.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Classic frame job, which Nancy Pelosi explains very well, where you make a false claim and you say, that's what they're saying, and then you discredit the false claim. But if you really learn the history of the Clinton family, just as one example, did you ever read the Strange.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Death of Vince Foster?

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

No, but I know a little bit about the Foster situation and a couple of those weird deaths earlier on, I.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Read that book I should read back in the Dizzy. And that's what got me into wondering about the Clintons, because that guy died. They found his body where there was less blood at the scene than was missing from his body, and the gun was still in his hand.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

I was actually just reading about that specific murder in Whitney Webb's books. Like Two nights ago. Because she goes over that, too, because it's a huge question mark.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

The gun was in his hand. The gun's never in your hand.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

His family claimed that that was. Wasn't the right gun. He had a black gun. And his family was like, no, he owned a silver gun. All these weird things. They never found the bullet. Like, all sorts of things that just don't add up. And that was right after Epstein had first walked into Bill Clinton's life. That was between White House visit number one and White House visit number two. Well, Epstein was funding the refurbishing of the entire west wing of the White House.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

I'm glad you brought up Epstein, because there was a point that I was going to make earlier that I forgot. The Epstein situation is identical to the Manson situation.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

You think so? Explain what you mean.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

This is why.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

I mean, I think you don't mean that literally. I think that in a more.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

I mean, the structure. The structure of how you would pull it. Like, if you were going to use an intelligence asset to do something evil, to do something where you can get dirt on people or compromise people or accomplish an objective, you would get someone who's already fucked up.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Oh, 100.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

And then you get that up person and you help them, you know, run this cult, or you help them get.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Girls, but you intentionally keep them separate.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

You don't.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

You're not hiring them. They don't work for you.

[Ami Kozak]

Right.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

They're a private entity. If he was layers of obfuscation.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Like, if he wasn't personally a pervert, it wouldn't work.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Oh, not a chance. No.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Like, think about, like, the guy gets arrested for having sex with underage girls or getting them to do happy endings or whatever. Wherever he did. So he gets arrested. And then the real weird thing is that he just gets out and gets like, house arrest, and he gets like a little slap on the wrist and then he's back in action with all these rich people again.

[Noam Dwarman]

Yep.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Like, really rich, influential people. Like Bill Gates is hanging out with him after he's already been arrested and convicted. Like, that's b.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

But to your point about that, he's.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Got to already be up. He can't be like a straight edge regular guy with a family and children. That is just evil. No, you got to have him in on the thing. So if you got a guy you know is already a freak, you know, he's already a nut, and he's already, like, doing.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

That's how you recruit him.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

Blow and hookers all the time. And maybe he's been caught with a few underage girls.

[Ami Kozak]

You.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Well, when you study where he came from and how he got plucked from the Dalton School and then got put into Bear Stearns. And they got put through Bear Stearns, then got put into money management like it was teaching.

[Unidentified Speaker 5]

At one point in time, it was.

[Unidentified Speaker 2]

Teaching at the Dalton School. And then he was a. A banker at Bear Stearns, which he conveniently left when this big scandal broke that implic. That implicated him and the director Goldstein, that had hired him and had been helping him up. And then he left and kind of took the fall and took the dirt with him. And then he went into the arms running businesses, which is where he went. Met Maxwell, Daddy Maxwell, not. Not daughter Maxwell and Anan Khashoggi and Lease and all these other arms traffickers. And that's where he got into.