Kaitlyn's Baby | Episode 3: Fifty doulas

Summary

Summary of "The Con: Kaitlyn's Baby | Episode 3: Fifty Doulas"

Released on January 28, 2025 by CBC and BBC World Service

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Introduction

In the gripping third episode of Season 2 of The Con: Kaitlyn's Baby, host Sarah Trelevin delves deep into the unsettling case of Kaitlyn Braun, a young woman whose fabricated pregnancies have left a trail of emotional and financial devastation among dozens of doulas. This episode, titled "Fifty Doulas," uncovers the intricate web of deception Kaitlyn wove and explores the profound impact her actions had on the professionals who trusted her.

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The Unraveling of Kaitlyn's Deception

Initial Shock and Discovery

The episode begins with Terri Murphy, a seasoned doula from north of Toronto, recounting her shock upon learning about Kaitlyn's deceit.

Terri Murphy [00:56]: "I know she was really shook up. I think we were both just stunned. And I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God."

Terri had mentored Shauna, whose first client was Kaitlyn Braun. The revelation that Kaitlyn was faking her pregnancy and labor only became clear after an ultrasound exposed the truth.

Terri Murphy [01:55]: "So we're like, pretty freaked out about all of that."

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The Quest for Answers

Terri's Determination

Terri's instinct was to seek the truth behind Kaitlyn's actions. She reached out to Kaitlyn, seeking clarification.

Terri Murphy [02:16]: "I said, you really need to pick up the phone and call me. I need to speak with you."

Despite Kaitlyn's tearful apologies and promises to seek therapy, Terri sensed the need for a deeper investigation. Her pursuit led her to Kaitlyn's mother, uncovering further layers of deception.

Terri Murphy [04:21]: "I think that has finally sunk in, in this time, that she is affecting other people."

Connecting the Dots

Terri's exploration revealed that Kaitlyn's initial claims of experiencing a stillbirth intertwined with previous trauma from an actual loss in June. However, inconsistencies began to surface, suggesting Kaitlyn's manipulations went beyond personal grief.

Terri Murphy [05:52]: "She was supporting a stillbirth, a 20 week stillbirth through a rape."

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Community Mobilization and Rising Concerns

Formation of the Doula Group Chat

Terri and Shauna took proactive steps to warn other doulas about Kaitlyn's deceit by creating a group chat.

Shauna [07:38]: "We created the group chat in November and every week or every few days we would find another victim and add them to the group chat."

Voices of the Affected Doulas

Amy Silva, another doula, shared her harrowing experience of being duped by Kaitlyn over an extended period.

Amy Silva [08:11]: "How long has she been doing this? Why aren't the police involved? Why, why? Why?"

Randy from Calgary recounted Kaitlyn's alarming behavior during supposed labor, which initially left her believing Kaitlyn was in a coma.

Randy [09:08]: "This is a bad one. This is really, really, really bad."

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Escalation and Realization

Pattern of Manipulation

As more doulas came forward, it became evident that Kaitlyn's manipulations were widespread, extending beyond professional relationships to personal circles.

Shauna [12:04]: "As more and more of these stories piled up. Things began to feel like they were spiraling out of control."

Economic and Emotional Toll

Many doulas not only endured emotional trauma but also faced financial losses due to unpaid services.

Amy [12:15]: "Some of the doulas didn't charge Kaitlin for helping to deliver a stillborn, but some did charge for their time, and often Kaitlin would just disappear and not pay them."

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The Turning Point: Police Involvement

Attempts to Seek Legal Recourse

Despite overwhelming evidence, initial attempts to involve law enforcement yielded little progress. However, persistence paid off when a victim services worker validated the doulas' experiences, leading to a formal investigation.

Amy [15:18]: "That we were not the first, that he knew who she was, that this has been going on."

Arrest and Charges

Eventually, Kaitlyn Braun was arrested by Brantford police on numerous charges, including criminal harassment, fraud, and sexual assault. This development brought a sense of relief to the affected community, though many questions remained unanswered.

Amy [24:42]: "She was arrested by Brantford police on Monday. She has like 13 charges and one of them is sexual assault and the rest are like false pretense and harassments and things like that."

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Aftermath and Ongoing Impact

Media Coverage and Public Awareness

Kaitlyn's case garnered extensive media attention, with local, national, and international outlets covering the saga. This exposure not only highlighted her deceptive practices but also shed light on the vulnerabilities within the doula community.

Unanswered Questions

Despite the arrest, the motives behind Kaitlyn's actions remain unclear. Doulas like Shauna ponder the psychological factors that drove Kaitlyn to orchestrate such elaborate deceptions.

Shauna [25:49]: "I wish that I knew that, honestly. It's one part of me feels like, you know, she's sick and she has some sort of like disease or illness or something."

Community Healing and Prevention Efforts

Doulas like Amy Silva have taken steps to prevent future incidents by sharing their stories and advocating for safety measures within the profession.

Amy Silva [17:29]: "I made the TikTok because I wanted to protect other doulas. It was never about naming Caitlin or shaming Caitlyn."

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Conclusion

"Fifty Doulas" serves as a poignant exploration of trust, deception, and the profound impact one individual's actions can have on an entire community. Through firsthand accounts and meticulous investigation, the episode underscores the importance of vigilance and support within professional networks to safeguard against such intricate cons.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Terri Murphy [02:16]: "I need to speak with you."
• Randy [09:08]: "This is really, really, really bad."
• Amy Silva [08:11]: "How long has she been doing this? Why aren't the police involved?"
• Shauna [07:38]: "We created the group chat... find another victim and add them to the group chat."
• Amy [24:42]: "She has like 13 charges and one of them is sexual assault..."
• Shauna [25:49]: "I wish that I knew that, honestly. It's one part of me feels like... she's sick..."
• Amy Silva [17:29]: "I made the TikTok because I wanted to protect other doulas."

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Credits

This episode was written, researched, and produced by Sarah Trelevin and Kathleen Goldhar, with additional production support from Andrew Friesen and Alexis Green. Sound design and scoring were crafted by Mitchell Stewart, and Emily Quinnell served as the digital coordinating producer. Veronica Simmons acted as the senior producer, while Emily Mathieu ensured factual accuracy as the fact checker. The executive producers were Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak, with Tanya Springer as the senior manager and Arif Narrani directing CBC Podcasts for the BBC World Service. Cat Collins contributed as the senior producer, and John Mennell oversaw podcast commissioning as editor.

Transcript

[Mattea Roach]

Hi, I'm Mattea Roach, and I like to think that I know a little bit about a lot of different things. You know, what's one thing I can never get enough of?

[Amy Silva]

Books.

[Mattea Roach]

If you're anything like me, after you finish reading a great book, you probably have some burning questions for the author. You want to talk to all your friends about it. Every week, I talk to the biggest, brightest, and most interesting authors from Canada and around the world. You can find bookends wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sarah Trelevin]

A BBC World Service and CBC podcast production. This episode contains strong language and references to baby loss and sexual behavior. That conversation with Shauna, when she calls you to tell you what happened, what did she say and how did that go?

[Terri Murphy]

I know she was really shook up. I think we were both just stunned. And I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Terri Murphy lives just north of Toronto in a bucolic setting. Fields, horses, barns. She has five kids and she's been a doula for decades. So when it comes to birthing, there isn't a lot she hasn't seen. But mentoring Shauna, who had Caitlin Braun as her first client, that really threw her.

[Terri Murphy]

I think I had more resources because I wasn't there doing what she did to start really going after it than Shawna did. I mean, she's really gotta be doubting herself and, you know, really shook up that she didn't see things.

[Sarah Trelevin]

What Shawna didn't see was that Caitlin was faking her pregnancy, faking her labor, and not until Caitlyn finally gets an ultrasound does the truth come out.

[Terri Murphy]

So we're like, pretty freaked out about all of that.

[Sarah Trelevin]

While Shauna is still in shock, still unsure what has happened, Terri's instinct is to get to the bottom of this. She wanted answers, and the more she dug, the bigger the story got.

[Terri Murphy]

I said, you really need to pick up the phone and call me. I need to speak with you.

[Sarah Trelevin]

For Terry, there was only one person who really knew what was going on, and that was Caitlin.

[Terri Murphy]

And she just said that she was really sorry. She couldn't stop crying. She just kept saying, I don't know why I do it.

[Sarah Trelevin]

For CBC and the BBC World Service, I'm Sarah Trelevin, and this is the Caitlyn's Baby, episode three, 50 doulas.

[Terri Murphy]

I'm thinking this woman is in a psychotic episode.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Terri says her call with Caitlin was short and it didn't offer a lot of answers.

[Terri Murphy]

She just kept saying, I don't know why I do it, but that she's going for therapy. And like I said, you're causing trauma to these people. You've got to stop doing this.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Caitlin promises Terri she'll stop. And Terri is hopeful. But she knows that Caitlin probably can't do it alone. She'll need the people who love her. So her first thought is to find Caitlin's mom.

[Terri Murphy]

I'm a mom and I, I really was feeling for her mom, you know.

[Sarah Trelevin]

With a bit of sleuthing, Terri finds her.

[Terri Murphy]

I've messaged her mother and said, I really need to speak to you. I'm really concerned about your daughter. Please contact me.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Months go by and then finally Terri hears back from Caitlin's mom. She says that Caitlin admitt everything, that she was scared.

[Terri Murphy]

She received a call from the police about possible charges and she is finally realizing the scope of what she has done. They said that she will not be charged if she receives the help and that there are no more complaints.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Caitlin's mom tells Terry that she thinks this has finally sunk in, that Caitlin finally understands that her actions are hurting other people. And she tells Terri that Caitlin is seeing a psychiatrist.

[Terri Murphy]

I think that has finally sunk in, in this time, that she is affecting other people.

[Sarah Trelevin]

But Terri's not sure about that response to her. It kind of lacks urgency. It doesn't seem like this is going to solve the immediate problem. There's no way for her to know that Caitlin will stop calling doulas. So Terry keeps looking for other people in Caitlin's life.

[Terri Murphy]

First, I go on Facebook and I see her best friend. I saw her best friend had a little baby and I said, don't want to freak you out, I have some concerns for your best friend. And I get on the phone and I tell her that her friend has just appeared to be pregnant and taken a doula through a long four day journey to not be pregnant. And we're really concerned about her mental health. And she's like, whoa, I just supported her through a stillbirth in June and she had a little girl. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this is unresolved trauma from this actual stillbirth she had in June. So Sean and I start, you know, you're feeling a lot of compassion and pity and all this poor thing, you know, she actually had a stillbirth.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Kaitlin's best friend tells Terry that there was a doula present for the stillbirth in June. So Terry reaches out to that doula, hoping to clarify what happened.

[Terri Murphy]

He supported her for four days. She was at home birthing with her and she was Shaking and sweating, and she said it didn't look good.

[Sarah Trelevin]

The story is a familiar one.

[Terri Murphy]

She was supporting a stillbirth, a 20 week stillbirth through a rape. They go to the hospital for an ultrasound. They get taken in by ambulance. So during the ultrasound, she goes into the room, goes for the ultrasound, comes out with the tech and the tech says, you need to tell your team what's happening. And she goes, yeah, I really just have to go to the bathroom. Goes to the bathroom and disappears.

[Sarah Trelevin]

This doula never sees Caitlin again. And for Terri, the landscape is changing quickly. This is starting to feel less like unprocessed trauma and more like another con. Caitlin wasn't just lying to strangers. She was lying to her best friend. I've actually talked to this friend and she is still very much confused and upset about what happened. Until Terri connected with her, she was still under the impression that Caitlyn had delivered a stillborn baby. What is now your read on this situation? What do you think is going on here?

[Terri Murphy]

That she has a fetish? She's manipulating.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Terry and Shauna agree that they need to warn other doulas. They start to post in doula groups on social media and put the word out through the community. Here's Shauna.

[Shauna]

So we created the group chat in November and every week or every few days we would find another victim and add them to the group chat. So it was kind of surreal because the group chat would be quiet for a few days and then all of a sudden my phone would start vibrating and I knew what it was.

[Sarah Trelevin]

What it was was doula. After doula finding out about Caitlyn and realizing that they too had been duped.

[Amy]

They had same questions over and over.

[Sarah Trelevin]

This is Amy, the doula who had been homesick but stuck on the phone with Caitlyn for 10 days. She also joined the group chat.

[Amy]

How long has she been doing this? Why aren't the police involved? Why, why? Why? But also there were even people who finished their communication with Kaitlin still believed that there really was a baby, really believed that there was a birth and didn't know it was fake. And then I had to tell them that it was fake, that they had, you know, put this kind of weird but not harmful situation in a box in their brain, up in away in their memory. And I had to bust it open.

[Sarah Trelevin]

One of those people was a doula named Randy. She was from a different Canadian city thousands of miles away in Calgary. Like Amy, Randy worked with Kaitlin over text for several days in a row.

[Randy]

There was a lot of messages. I know at some point their friends joined. And so I would be having dialogue with one friend.

[Sarah Trelevin]

After several hours of labor, things started to take a turn. One of Kaitlin's friends texted Randy telling her that the doctors were panicked and things weren't looking good.

[Randy]

So at this point in time, friend is freaking out. They are catastrophically going to, worst case scenario, as. As you would like, when you see your friend essentially bleeding out, you're going to freak out. And so they're going, well, what if there's a hysterectomy? My client had wanted more babies. How. How do they go about that? How are they gonna like, it's not just like this loss. Now there's another loss. What happens if they're not able to stop the bleeding? What happens if they die? Like, they said that organ failure was happening. And so when that happens, I know I'm like, okay, so my client's essentially dead and I've never lost a client before.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Randy believed that Kaitlyn was in a coma.

[Randy]

This is a bad one. This is really, really, really bad. I end up driving to my friend's house, well, on the phone with one of my friends because, like, I'm hysterically crying at this point.

[Sarah Trelevin]

This interaction, the loss of her client, had a lasting impact on Randy. So much so that she got a tattoo in Caitlyn's honor. It's on her left arm below the elbow. It reads surrender with a little blue butterfly. But then Randy saw the social media posts.

[Randy]

You get hit with so many feelings and so many emotions and wants, and.

[Sarah Trelevin]

The dominoes started falling because it's like.

[Randy]

Oh, thank God, like, they're okay, they're alive, but also, what the fuck? And what the hell just happened?

[Sarah Trelevin]

It's become clear not only was Caitlyn obviously lying about the pregnancy, she clearly had not fallen into a coma either. It had to be Kaitlin herself sending those texts from different cell phone number. Shauna remembers that at first the doulas who joined the chat group were mostly Canadian. But soon it ballooned.

[Shauna]

We found somebody who was in Florida. I think at one point we found somebody in the States. I think it was in the southern states. I can't remember exactly where, but it was the week before me.

[Sarah Trelevin]

While talking to another doula, Shauna says Caitlin turned on her camera and. And pointed it at her vagina, like.

[Shauna]

Call the doula on FaceTime or whatever, set the phone up, went and sat down and gave herself a cervix check.

[Sarah Trelevin]

As more and more of these stories piled up. Things began to feel like they were spiraling out of control. The scope of this thing was enormous. The number of doulas in the Kaitlyn group chat hit more than 50. 50. And those were just the ones who approached the group. How many other doulas had Kaitlin tricked? How much damage had she caused? A lot of the doulas didn't charge Kaitlin for helping to deliver a stillborn, but some did charge for their time, and often Kaitlin would just disappear and not pay them. So the doulas were upset about the money she owed some of them and the emotional toll she took on all of them. But they were now also worried about how far she might go.

[Amy]

We were listening to these stories about how she got into labor and delivery units with doulas and then she would be gone, walking around the hospital for an hour or two where no one knew where she was. I was also very scared that she was going to find a doula who either was pregnant or brought their infant along with them. And I was concerned that she was going to find a new mom working as a doula. Like, I was really scared she was gonna steal a baby.

[Sarah Trelevin]

The last straw was when one of the doulas in the group chat says she found an ad Caitlin posted advertising her services as a nanny.

[Amy]

I call the.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Foreign.

[David Ridgeon]

I'm David Ridgeon, host of the award winning podcast Someone Knows Something. Each season I investigate a different unsolved case, from a mysterious bomb hidden in a flashlight to two teenagers killed by the kkk. The New York Times calls SKS a consistently rigorous, intelligent gem. And Esquire named the series one of the best true crime podcasts of 2021. Find Someone Knows Something wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kathleen Goltar]

Tanya Mosley didn't even know she had a sister until she went missing. Her sister Anita left home in 1987 and never returned. Now Tonya, along with the help of her sister's son Antonio, is determined to find out what happened. I'm Kathleen Goltar, and this week on Crime Story, one woman search for her long lost sister. Find Crime Story wherever you get your podcasts.

[Amy]

I sit in my car shaking for hours because all you can do is like, leave a message with the switchboard and they say, someone will get back to you.

[Sarah Trelevin]

When Amy finally gets a call back, she says the detective tells her something she really doesn't expect.

[Amy]

And he makes it clear to me that he knows who Caitlyn is.

[Sarah Trelevin]

The police already know Caitlyn.

[Amy]

I don't know how long ago but previously that she had actually lied to him and said she was pregnant at that time. He obviously can't tell me a whole lot. She has privacy rights. But in his very, like, roundabout police officer way, made it clear to me that. That we were not the first, that he knew who she was, that this has been going on.

[Sarah Trelevin]

The detective offers to go to Caitlyn's apartment to check on her. We've confirmed the Brantford police did do a wellness check on Caitlyn.

[Amy]

He calls me back and he confirms she's in her living room and she's fine. She was surprised when he showed up.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Amy says she was told that Kaitlin was at home and that she was fine. Maybe she's gearing up for some more fake contractions. But despite all that, Amy says the police don't believe any laws have been broken.

[Amy]

We can't really help you. This isn't really fraud. There was no money involved. And he told me to start spreading the word. So very specifically in that conversation, he asked me if there was some kind of surgery, certifying body, some kind of college that we could go to that could help us spread the word that there was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

[Sarah Trelevin]

There is no college or certifying body. It's not like being a nurse. Doulas aren't a regulated profession. So there's no single entity that can send an email blast out to let them know that there's a predator on the loose.

[Amy]

I asked very specifically if sharing her name or information could get us in trouble, and he said no. Know that if this was something that you really went through, then it is not slander.

[Amy Silva]

Hey, it's been a long time since I've come on and shared anything.

[Sarah Trelevin]

This is Amy Silva. She's another doula in London, Ontario, who had a brief experience with Caitlin.

[Amy Silva]

Very recently, three weeks ago today, I supported somebody through what I was told was a stillbirth. I had somebody reach out to me. I made the TikTok because I wanted to protect other doulas. It was never about naming Caitlin or shaming Caitlyn. Yeah, it was. It was always like, what can we do moving forward? We had, all of us, we had those conversations very early on about, okay, this is a situation that we never want to happen again. We don't want any other doulas to go through this. Like, what are some safety measures that we could put in place? Like, what could we have done to prevent this? And honestly, there's not a lot that you can do.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Amy's video went viral and she inspired some other doulas to make their own, including Shauna.

[Shauna]

I'm feeling a little bit better today, so I'm going to try to do a full story time and hopefully shed some light on some questions that a.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Lot of people have.

[Shauna]

This is going to be in a lot of parts, just so you're aware. I'll link in comments and stuff. I was sitting in my car and I said, if you're a doula, please watch this. And I said, there's a birth fetish. Ambitious. Running out of Brantford, Ontario, and I got a dm. But I also accidentally used the hashtag Dogs of Tick Tock. I meant to say Doulas of Tick Tock. And I, like, typoed, I guess. I don't even know how that worked. And I was like, oh, oops. I had 24 followers. I was not expecting anything to happen with this, but I think it was because I used dogs of TikTok. I got on the wrong for you page. And so then people were hearing this and being like, wait, what? The next red flag is that she did not want to change her shorts after her water broke. And I thought that that was really gross. Now I think that she was just really lazy and thought I was stupid, which I guess I was.

[Sarah Trelevin]

These posts hit big. Tens of thousands of views, hundreds of comments. Here's Amy Silva again.

[Amy Silva]

What I got from my video was a lot of people reaching out to me that had been impacted by Caitlyn. I had multiple doulas from out of province, out of the country. I had people that she'd grown up with messaging me. I had a nurse that she had worked with message me. I had a woman who owns a funeral home in the UK who sent Caitlin money for a funeral, messaged me.

[Sarah Trelevin]

What were you learning about her from what they were telling you?

[Amy Silva]

I had a lot of people that she grew up with, friends from, you know, university, had family members reach out and they were all saying, like, she's always done this. She's. She's accused me of xyz. She's always been unstable or like, I'm not shocked by this. Yeah, it was. It was a lot of that. Like, just not shocked.

[Sarah Trelevin]

And in the midst of all this, the doulas sharing their trauma and anger, trying to warn people, while absorbing all of the other awful Kaitlin Braun stories coming from friends and family members, something else happens. Someone online with Caitlyn's name and picture starts liking the comments under these videos. We haven't been able to verify whether this was in fact Caitlyn. But to the doulas at the time, they believed it was her and that she was mocking them. While this is all blowing up online, Amy Perry is still frustrated that she can't get police interested in this case. But finally, after two months of waiting, she's connected to a victim services worker.

[Amy]

And she just sat there the whole time going, oh my God. Oh my God. No way. This is so traumatic. Oh my God. Bless this woman. All I needed in that moment was validation that this was real. And she gave me that validation. She's witnessed home births with somebody in her family. She knew what a doula was. She knew the kind of support, the intimate type of support that we give. And more than anything, what that allowed was the space for me to get more into the details that I couldn't bring up in a 10 minute conversation, to just try and give the bullet points to the police officer, to even say this is something that's happening. In her role as a victim services worker, she's not interested in the crime. She was interested in the trauma. And so she listened to my trauma. And I to this day wonder what she did that all of a sudden. Within a couple weeks, Brantford police was calling me and asking to do a video interview.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Soon, other doulas are asked to come in for interviews as well, but Amy is still struggling.

[Amy]

I'm in Brantford and I know where she lives, and so I drive past her house. So I pull into the parking lot and I sit there for maybe 10 or 15 minutes and I stare at her house, thinking about knocking on her door and punching her in the face. I mean, really, that's what I'm picturing. And obviously I don't do it. She's unsafe. I'm not going to put myself in that position. But what I then learned three days later is that there was a doula in that house while I was staring at it. And she was there for five days.

[Sarah Trelevin]

All of this simmering starts to feel like it's hitting a boiling point.

[Amy]

And then we wake up one March morning and our group doula chat is going bananas and she's been arrested. We find out that she's been arrested and we don't hear from anybody. We have no idea what's going on.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Caitlyn's story is now being feverishly covered by local and soon national and international media.

[Amy]

A Branford woman is being charged for using doula services while falsely claiming to be pregnant and having stage stillbirths.

[David Ridgeon]

The woman faked pregnancies and stillbirths to receive treatment. Some doulas say they're relieved.

[Amy]

24 year old Caitlin Braun is facing charges ranging from criminal harassment, fraud and sexual assault. She was arrested by Brantford police on Monday. She has like 13 charges and one of them is sexual assault and the rest are like false pretense and harassments and things like that. And then that encourages other doulas to come forward.

[Sarah Trelevin]

The Brantford police tell reporters that they're receiving a flood of calls and emails from potential victims. In an email to our team, they describe this case as an exceptionally unique investigation. The doulas have no idea why the police have finally decided to act, but there's a collective sigh of relief that Caitlyn's in jail stopped, at least for now. But there are still so many unanswered questions. The main ones who is Kaitlin Braun and why would she do this?

[Shauna]

I wish that I knew that, honestly. It's one part of me feels like, you know, she's sick and she has some sort of like disease or illness or something. And that's why that happened, because a normal person just wouldn't do that.

[Sarah Trelevin]

That's next time on the Con. Caitlin's baby. We made numerous attempts to contact Kaitlin Braun, outlining the allegations made through the series and inviting her to respond to what has been said. She made it clear to me that she didn't want to be involved with the podcast. The invitation remains open to Caitlin should she change her mind and wish to respond. None of the sexual allegations against her were proven in court. This is a CBC and BBC World Service production. The show is written, researched and produced by me, Sarah Trelevin. It was also written and produced by Kathleen Goldhar. Extra production support from Andrew Friesen and Alexis Green. Sound design and scoring by Mitchell Stewart. Emily Quinnell is our digital coordinating producer. Our senior producer is Veronica Simmons. The fact checker is Emily Mathieu. Our executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is our senior manager and Arif Narrani is the director of CBC Podcasts for the BBC World Service. Cat Collins is the senior producer and John Mennell is the podcast commissioning editor. A BBC World Service and CBC podcast production.