Kaitlyn's Baby | Episode 4: Down the rabbit hole

Summary

Summary of "The Con: Kaitlyn's Baby" | Episode 4: "Down the Rabbit Hole"

Overview "The Con: Kaitlyn's Baby" is a gripping six-part true crime series produced by CBC and the BBC World Service. Season 2 explores the intricate deceit of Kaitlyn Braun, a young woman accused of manipulating dozens of doulas by fabricating pregnancies and stillbirths. Episode 4, titled "Down the Rabbit Hole," delves into the harrowing experiences of those who tried to support Kaitlyn and the unraveling of her elaborate con.

Introduction to Kaitlyn Braun's Fraud The episode opens with the arrest of Kaitlyn Braun in March 2023. At 24 years old, Kaitlyn is charged with 52 counts, including fraud, harassment, and sexual assault. Her actions involved deceitfully using doula services by pretending to be pregnant and alleging stillbirths to receive support and treatment.

Sarah Trelevin [01:04]: “Kaitlyn Braun’s lies have violated the very nature of the job and have forced many doulas to leave the profession altogether.”

Personal Testimony: Azia's Friendship with Kaitlyn Azia, Kaitlyn's childhood friend, provides an intimate look into Kaitlyn's manipulative behavior. Their friendship, though cyclical, revealed red flags early on. Azia recalls Kaitlyn's anxiety and neediness from a young age.

Jamie Poisson [03:13]: “We would be super close and then we weren't, and then we would be close again and then we weren't.”

Azia describes Kaitlyn as deeply affectionate but also introverted and anxious, traits that later facilitated her ability to manipulate those around her.

Escalation of Kaitlyn's Deception As adults, Kaitlyn's fabrications intensified. She began telling Azia a series of increasingly tragic stories, including false claims of cancer diagnoses and sexual assaults. Kaitlyn's manipulations became more elaborate, culminating in the faked stillbirths.

Jamie Poisson [10:37]: “She had said that she had cancer and that the doctors had missed it. I was scared.”

Azia recounts how Kaitlyn's stories were designed to elicit sympathy and support, leading to deeper emotional entanglement.

The Breaking Point: Realization and Betrayal Azia reached a critical point when Kaitlyn's claims became too frequent and unverifiable. Kaitlyn demanded proof of stillbirths, which she never provided. Instead, she used photos of other women's lost babies, exacerbating feelings of betrayal among her victims.

Jamie Poisson [22:11]: “That was, like, heartbreaking. That even for me felt like a huge betrayal.”

This revelation was pivotal in Azia's decision to distance herself from Kaitlyn, marking the end of their friendship and highlighting the extensive impact of Kaitlyn's deceit.

Impact on Doulas and the Community Kaitlyn's actions had a profound effect on the doula community. Many doulas felt exploited and emotionally drained, leading some to leave the profession entirely. The case raised significant concerns about trust and vulnerability within caregiving professions.

Sarah Trelevin [01:04]: “She’s always been the same person, but I didn't know the extent of her deception.”

Emotional and Ethical Implications The episode explores the complex emotional and ethical dimensions of Kaitlyn's actions. It questions how someone can manipulate trust to such an extent and the challenges faced by victims in navigating their responses.

Jamie Poisson [23:30]: “I genuinely think she just wanted someone to take care of her.”

Conclusion: Searching for the Truth "Down the Rabbit Hole" leaves listeners pondering the deeper motivations behind Kaitlyn's actions and the broader implications for those in supportive roles. The episode underscores the importance of vigilance and the need for systems to protect vulnerable professionals from such deceit.

Sarah Trelevin [24:42]: “With everything we now know about Kaitlyn, what else don’t we know and what is she truly capable of?”

Notable Quotes

• Jamie Poisson [03:13]: “We would be super close and then we weren't, and then we would be close again and then we weren't.”
• Azia [04:33]: “She just kind of always knew what to say when you were down or was upset.”
• Jamie Poisson [10:37]: “She had said that she had cancer and that the doctors had missed it. I was scared.”
• Azia [22:11]: “That was, like, heartbreaking. That even for me felt like a huge betrayal.”
• Jamie Poisson [23:30]: “I genuinely think she just wanted someone to take care of her.”
• Sarah Trelevin [24:42]: “With everything we now know about Kaitlyn, what else don’t we know and what is she truly capable of?”

Final Thoughts Episode 4 of "The Con: Kaitlyn's Baby" masterfully unpacks the layers of Kaitlyn Braun's deceit, highlighting the emotional toll on those she manipulated and raising critical questions about trust and mental health. Through personal accounts and investigative journalism, the episode paints a comprehensive picture of a con that transcends typical scams, delving into the psychological intricacies of Kaitlyn's actions.

Transcript

[Jamie Poisson]

Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson and every weekday I host a news podcast called Front Burner. We do one story a day and we try to give you a deep but not overwhelming amount of information and context. Lately, there has been a ton of political news to keep on top of. Canada is facing a pivotal election, there's a power struggle at the heart of the Liberal Party, and the uncertainty of Trump's second term looms over all of this. So if you want to keep up with what's happening, follow Front Burner.

[Sarah Trelevin]

A BBC World Service and CBC podcast production. This episode contains strong language and references to baby loss and sexual assault.

[Jamie Poisson]

A Branford woman is being charged for using doula services while falsely claiming to be pregnant and having stillbirths. 24 year old Caitlyn Braun is facing the woman faked pregnancies and stillbirths 2 to receive treatment. Some doulas say she would contact doulas who provide support before, during and after childbirth, pretending to be pregnant.

[Sarah Trelevin]

In March 2023, 24 year old Kaitlin Braun is arrested. She says Braun's lies have violated the very nature of the job and has forced many doulas to leave the profession altogether. She's facing 52 counts of fraud, harassment and sexual assault. 17 victims. Caitlin is taken to the Vanier Centre for Women, a Canadian jail in southwestern Ontario. And finally, the doulas, who had been manipulated, used and victimized by her, feel a general sense of relief. The police are taking this seriously and while she's in jail, she can't hurt anyone else. People are shocked and everyone has the same questions, why, how? But at the same time, as Caitlyn's name goes public, people who knew her start to come forward.

[Jamie Poisson]

I met Caitlin when we were three. We did ballet together. There's going to be some sort of lies that she's always going to tell or some sort of like manipulation or control she's going to want to have over people, no matter how big or small it is. I feel like it's like a game, you know, how far can I go and what can I get away with?

[Sarah Trelevin]

For CBC and the BBC World Service, I'm Sarah Trelevin and this is the con, Caitlin's baby. Episode 4 Down the Rabbit Hole.

[Jamie Poisson]

She's always lived with her mom and her sister, so it was always the three of them.

[Sarah Trelevin]

This is Caitlyn's childhood friend Azia.

[Jamie Poisson]

She had a brother I never met. I don't know where he was, like maybe living with her dad. And then her dad and her mom were had been split for time.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Azia and Caitlyn went to school together.

[Jamie Poisson]

We were like friends on and off for years. Like, we would be, like, super close and then we weren't, and then we would be close again and then we weren't. And we would go for lunch and whatever. So that's kind of like how our friendship was from a really long time.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Whenever they were in the close phase of their friendship, Azia and Kaitlin spent a lot of time together. They only lived 10 minutes apart and would sleep over at each other's houses. They also attended the same Christian camp in the summers. Asia got to know and like Caitlin's family. But Caitlin wasn't always a happy kid.

[Jamie Poisson]

I remember that from so young. She'd be very sad or she'd be very needy. She had a lot of anxiety. Like, a lot of anxiety. And when I was a kid, I couldn't relate to that. I just would want to play Barbies or whatever. And she just had so much anxiety. She couldn't do anything. She would almost like. I don't want to say she, like, would freeze up, but she just wouldn't want to participate. She would just sit there and kind of like. I don't know, she looked scared all the time.

[Sarah Trelevin]

And did she have a lot of other friends? Was she very social?

[Jamie Poisson]

No, she was very introverted. I do know she had other friends and she would kind of like bounce around between them. Like, she would be close to me and then we wouldn't kind of like, distance ourselves a little bit. And then it was almost like she would come back around.

[Sarah Trelevin]

When Caitlin was in Azia's life, Caitlyn showed signs of being a really good friend.

[Jamie Poisson]

She just kind of always knew what to say when you were down or was upset. She was always there. She was always like, I'll come pick you up or I'll bring you snacks or ice cream or whatever.

[Sarah Trelevin]

As they grew older, it went beyond the offer of ice cream on a bad day.

[Jamie Poisson]

I remember we were sitting in, like, English class and she was like, I just want to feed you. So she would, like, feed me goldfish.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Just to be clear, Azy is talking about a kind of cracker here, one that's shaped like a fish.

[Jamie Poisson]

It's so weird. You can, like, remember. I remember sitting there and I was like, this is so strange. But whatever. I just rolled with it.

[Sarah Trelevin]

And she's physically taking the goldfish, like, out of the bag and putting them into your mouth.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yeah. Another thing she would. She's a really big hand holder. Everywhere we would go, she would want to hold my hand. She was always like wanting to be like held and cuddled, which for me, I'm not like that. I'm not a physical, like touch person. So I don't know, it just, I feel like when I get like that, I feel very claustrophobic. I just want to be like, left alone.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Caitlyn's overt affection started to feel off putting. And Aya started to see that Caitlyn's kindness came with strings when she needed.

[Jamie Poisson]

She really needed you. So I feel like it was kind of a wind up to this is what I would do for you. And so then when she needed it, it was like, it was almost like you kind of needed a little bit and then she would need like a mil. So I hadn't talked to Caitlyn in probably like a year at least, and I had gotten like an Instagram message. Hey, I don't know if you've seen this, but you follow her on Instagram. Caitlyn Braun. And then there was a link and I was like, that's weird. And I just like left it. I didn't even open the link. And then maybe like not even an hour later, one of my good friends called and was like, did you hear about Caitlyn? And so she literally took all the highlights and sent it to me. And I just was like, what? Like, I was so confused on like, what is happening right now?

[Sarah Trelevin]

And what were you seeing? Like, what did she send you?

[Jamie Poisson]

It was like the initial report of like she had frauded a bunch of doulas and that basically like all of her charges, like the, I don't know, frauding, the sexual assault, like, it just was so crazy that like someone that you're so close to would do something like that was like, I was like shocked. I just was like, I didn't know what to do with that information.

[Sarah Trelevin]

How did you respond? Like, what went through your head?

[Jamie Poisson]

I just was like, so. And then I was googling because I'm like, what's going on? Like, I wanted to read the full story. So then I'm like trying to figure it out. And then I went on tick tock. Because that's just like where all the information is. And it just was story after story after story. Okay, so this video might be kind of long and all over the place, but this is my experience with this whole doula scam thing that you may have heard of. There's at least 50 of us that we know of right now, primarily in southern Ontario. And across Canada. We also have a couple that are in the States now. I think that she was just really lazy and thought I was stupid, which I guess I was. And I literally went down a rabbit hole. I spent so many hours. I listened to all of them. I watched every single part. There was like 27 parts to someone's story, 13 parts to another person's story, and I listened to them all. So she DMed me in November of 2022 asking for lost support through a stillbirth. So we proceeded to go to the.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Airbnb that she had booked.

[Jamie Poisson]

So I spent the next two days trying to convince her that she needs to go to the hospital.

[Sarah Trelevin]

So I was alone with her in that Airbnb.

[Jamie Poisson]

We know now that she changes details of her stories to kind of match with the personalities or the backgrounds of the doulas that she's working with.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Asia was shocked, shocked. She was confused, even horrified. But as she headed further down the Caitlyn rabbit hole, she was struck by another feeling. This was all very familiar.

[Jamie Poisson]

My heart was pounding because a lot of what she was saying, I was like, that happened to me. Like those exact things. Like, I was like, yes. Like, I can relate to everything. You're.

[Sarah Trelevin]

A search for the truth behind an international drug smuggling plot.

[Jamie Poisson]

There's something on this boat. A ton of cocaine. There was a lot of adrenaline. I couldn't believe what was happening.

[Sarah Trelevin]

And the man Brazilian police believe to be at its center.

[Jamie Poisson]

Fox, Fox, Fox.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Called the shots from the BBC World Service. This is World of Secrets season five, Finding Mr. Fox. Search for World of Secrets. Wherever you get your BBC podcasts. When Derek Johnson was diagnosed with cerebral palsy, his family thought that he would never be able to speak. And then they met Professor Anna Stubblefield. And she believed that with the right technique, he could say what was on his mind. But what began as an opportunity turned into accusations of sexual assault. I'm Kathleen Goldhar, and this week on Crime Story, we dive into the complicated questions surrounding the doc Tell Them youm Love Me. Find Crime Story wherever you get your podcasts. Over the years, Azia told me a pattern started to emerge with Caitlin, pulling her into a seemingly never ending list of tragedies. Tragedies that just kept getting bigger and bigger.

[Jamie Poisson]

She had said that she had cancer and that the doctors had missed it. I was scared. I was like, oh my God, like, you're so young. I think we were like 20 at the time.

[Sarah Trelevin]

At first, Caitlyn told Azia it was stage one. There was hope. But a few weeks later, that would change.

[Jamie Poisson]

Oh, they were wrong about the test. And it's actually, like, stage three or stage four. So then I'm like, what the hell's going on? And so I'm like, like, literally sobbing. Like, I was so upset.

[Sarah Trelevin]

And then Caitlin told Asia about an attack she claimed happened while she was away at another Christian youth camp.

[Jamie Poisson]

And the pastor had finished preaching and had went into the bathroom and basically raped her while everyone was there. And then had went back and just resumed like, everything was fine.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Just went out into a crowd of people after raping her in the bathroom.

[Jamie Poisson]

Right. And so for the rest of the week, it just was, like, brushed under the rug or whatever. And so she had told me and one of our other friends that. And I remember being like, what? Like what?

[Sarah Trelevin]

Azia wanted to help. She encouraged Caitlyn to say something to someone, but Caitlyn wouldn't.

[Jamie Poisson]

She kind of said it as, like, I'm processing this trauma, and this is what happened to me. And so I was like, oh, my God. You know, I was there. I was like, I'm so sorry this happened to you.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Other friends who also heard this story from Caitlin didn't believe her and cut ties, but not Azia.

[Jamie Poisson]

I was like, I can't leave somebody who has just opened up about a trauma like that and just let her process that on her. Like, I would feel so guilty. So I literally was like, oh, my God, what can I do?

[Sarah Trelevin]

I spoke with another friend of Caitlyn's who said that Caitlyn told her about dozens of sexual assaults. At one point, it was almost every week. It was confusing and horrifying, and she felt like it was impossible to be a good friend without ignoring the doubts that bubbled up every time she talked to Caitlin. I just want to stop here and say what I think is obvious but important. It's well established that the vast majority of people who claim to have been sexually assaulted are telling a very difficult truth, even including this. Part of Asia's experience with Caitlin was debated by our team. What if this story was then used to undermine other sexual assault victims coming forward? But in the end, we decided it was important to share because it's this exact grappling that was going on with people in Caitlyn's orbit.

[Jamie Poisson]

You know what's funny is a lot of this is not even said in person. Like, a lot of this is either over text or a phone call. She would always message me and say, hi, bae, how are you? Because that's what she would call me, and I would Be like, I'm good. How are you? And then she would say, not well, or, you know, I'm. I'm going through this, or blah, blah, blah. And so every time I got that text of, hi, bae, how are you? I was like, eventually I got, oh, my God, like, here we go. Like, what's happening now? And I actually put her on a specific vibrate. Like, her phone would vibrate a specific time so that I would know if she texted me, because it just was, like, so constant that she would always reach out only when she really kind of needed something.

[Sarah Trelevin]

And your sense of your role in this, the other half of this conversation was to provide support to her, reassure her, those kinds of things.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yeah. Because that's what she would do for me, and she would support me, and she would send me such long messages of like, you're great and wonderful, and blah, blah, blah, you're gonna do great things in your life. And it would always make me feel so much better. So I would try and do that back. But it was always, like, small things of, like, I'm feeling, you know, a little bit depressed or I'm feeling like a kind of a bit of an outcast or whatever. And so then it would start like that, and then it got to the point of, okay, well, I'm reprocessing this trauma. I'm reliving this from when I was, like, a kid. And that's, like, super heavy to, like, put on somebody. So it just. Yeah, it like, really escalated to the point where it was like, I don't even really know how to help you or, like, what to say. So I started kind of trying to, like, distance myself back, but it was like, the more I kind of retreated, it was like the heavier the trauma that was, like, coming up for her, I feel like towards the end, it was always, like, sexual silence. Yeah. Or just, like, reliving the same trauma that she had told me before. Whatever.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Do you know if she ever went to the police about these things? Do you know if any of these people ever found out about these allegations?

[Jamie Poisson]

Well, the posture one that I had said, she had reached out to his wife and text messaged his wife or whatever. I don't know. She messaged his wife and said, your husband did this to me, and this is what happened. And I just thought you should know.

[Sarah Trelevin]

According to Asia, Caitlyn showed her a screenshot of the message.

[Jamie Poisson]

I, at that time, again, was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry that, you know, they're not believing you. And that's like, such a big part of, like, especially when you're, like, a sexual assault victim that nobody believes you. So that really tugged at me where I was like, they're not believing you. You just came forward. That's crazy. So I really, like, felt bad for her in that moment.

[Sarah Trelevin]

On another occasion, Caitlin told Azia about being sexually assaulted again.

[Jamie Poisson]

We went to dinner, and after dinner, you know, we were leaving, and she goes, you know, this traumatic thing just happened to me. I was raped. I don't really know what to do about it. And so I was like, okay, well, I don't really know what to do, to be honest. Like, I can be there for you and be support. Like, I was like. I didn't know what to do. I was just like. And so she's like, well, I. I can go get a rape kit, but I. I don't know if I can do it alone or something like that. So I was like, okay, I can go to the hospital with you. So I wasn't allowed to go in because it was Covid. So I dropped her off later. A couple days later, I guess it had happened again. So then I'm like, oh, my God. Okay, well, this is crazy, because it's the same person again.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Caitlyn wants Azia to go with her to get a rape kit done.

[Jamie Poisson]

I wasn't even supposed to be in the hospital waiting room with her, but they had, like, allowed me to do that, so I stayed and I waited there with her for hours.

[Sarah Trelevin]

As you're describing this, I'm hearing a relationship with an old friend who you really want the best for and who you want to help, but you're kind of getting to a point where this is exhausting.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yep.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Yeah.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yep.

[Sarah Trelevin]

She's just taking too much from you.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yep.

[Sarah Trelevin]

And you're starting to see that y. Aya might be tiring of her friend Caitlyn. But Caitlin is not done with Aya. The next alleged rape happened with a guy that Caitlyn said she met on a Christian dating app.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yeah, I guess they went out, and she was like. He just was, like, not who he said he was, and he ended up, like, raping me, basically. Mind you, again, this is, like, in, like, a month span. This is, like, the umpteenth time. Like, it's just at this point, unrealistic.

[Sarah Trelevin]

The umpteenth time that she's reporting to you that she's been assaulted.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yeah.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Okay.

[Jamie Poisson]

You know, and this is, like, when I really was pulling back.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Caitlyn tells her that she's blocked him.

[Jamie Poisson]

Anyway, she messages me not even like, an hour or two afterwards. And she's like, he found me. That's all he said, he found me. So I'm like, well, how did he find you if you blocked him on all social media? Well, I forgot to block him on Snapchat. And I'm like, okay. So then she's, like, freaking out. She literally drove. She met me and my boyfriend's mom. I didn't even ask her what happened. I just was like, come to the store. Just come shopping with us. Whatever. I remember my boyfriend's mom was like, hi. Like, what's going on? I just was like, honestly, just keep shopping. Like, let's just keep it moving here.

[Sarah Trelevin]

I mean, you're. You know, you're. You're in a pet store with your boyfriend's mother, and she's shown up like, what is her vibe? Is she frantic? Is she sad?

[Jamie Poisson]

So quiet, so quiet, so quiet, like. And that's just like, what I. When she was a kid, and it was just like, she just sits there and she looks scared. Like, she just sits scrunched up like that. Like, she just comes in and she kind of is behind you, and she's holding my hand. Like, do you know, like a little kid meeting someone and they're hiding behind their mom's leg. And, like, that's the. The same energy is like, she just. She would kind of be behind me. She was just holding my hand the whole time. We just. I didn't even say anything to her. Literally, again, holding my hand, dragging her through the store. I'm like, whatever, dude. This is just what it is.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Eventually, Caitlyn leaves Asia.

[Jamie Poisson]

I think she was sensing that I was. She wasn't getting the energy that she wanted from me. And so she texted me super late at night, and it was like, are you ready to be an auntie? And that's all it said. So I'm like, what? So she's like, yeah, it's that guy. You know, actually, I am pregnant from the first time he had raped me. So I'm like, oh. So I was like, okay, so what are we doing? Like, what do you need from me? Are. Are you going to. I don't know, keep it. Like, what's happening?

[Sarah Trelevin]

Back and forth, the friends went, what will Caitlyn do? Will she keep the baby? Caitlyn doesn't know until one day she texts Aya a picture.

[Jamie Poisson]

I don't know. She sent me pictures. She had bought baby clothes and all this stuff. It was like, maybe a week after she had told Me, she's like, you know, the baby is actually farther along than what I thought I was, but it's measuring super small, so it's not looking good. So I was like, okay, what does that mean? Basically, she was like, I'm like, almost 30 weeks, but it's measuring at like, eight weeks.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Most of these messages are coming in very late at night or even early morning, so Azia doesn't always see them until the next day.

[Jamie Poisson]

She messages me, she's going into delivery. The baby's, like, going to be born. Still birth.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Caitlyn is now telling Azia that her baby has died. And it's this tragedy, this terrible situation that feels like just one too many.

[Jamie Poisson]

I was like, no, this is not true. So I was trying to, like, get her to send me some sort of proof. So without being like, send me proof. So I was like, you know, did. Did you get any pictures, like, you know, with the stillborn baby? Like, I have had people that are close to me that have stillbirth, and that's something sometimes people want and sometimes people don't. So she's like, yeah, I got pictures of the baby.

[Sarah Trelevin]

Caitlyn never sent a. The picture she was asking for. But someone both Caitlyn and Aya knew had actually lost a baby and had posted photos of the child on their social media.

[Jamie Poisson]

And she was very open on social media about it, and she would post lots of pictures. That's just, like, how she was grieving. You know, we all really felt for her.

[Sarah Trelevin]

But then Azia heard that Caitlyn was sharing those baby pictures and claiming it was her baby. In fact, court records show that Caitlyn did this with multiple people, including Doulas. She sent photos of stillborn babies claiming they were hers.

[Jamie Poisson]

And that was, like, heartbreaking. That even for me felt like a huge betrayal. So I can't even imagine, like, how the mom would have felt after that. I just. I literally stopped talking to her. She would message me for weeks and months after, like, randomly, she'd pop in and be like, hey, I hope you're okay, or, hey, did I do anything? Or whatever. And I. I just, in my heart, like, I had no way of, like, cutting her off like that, because if I did reach out, she would just find a way to, like, bring me back in. So I literally just stopped answering everything altogether.

[Sarah Trelevin]

And looking back now, because you have so much more context and you've heard about, like, an even wider spectrum of behavior. And of course, crucially, you know, you're not the only one. What do you think she wanted from you? What do you think she was trying to get out of you?

[Jamie Poisson]

I genuinely think she just wanted someone to take care of her. I think she just wanted to be, like, coddled and hugged and nurtured. And I think she just liked being helped. Like, I think she liked being, like, kind of defenseless like this. Like, oh, I need help. And I, I don't have anything to like, you know. So I think she just liked that somebody would kind of, like, step up and go to bat for her and be there with her.

[Sarah Trelevin]

And this is like the $10 million question, but do you have any sense of why she went about getting her needs met through such incredibly unhealthy means?

[Jamie Poisson]

I. I wish that I knew that. Honestly, the one part of me feels like, you know, she's sick and she has some sort of, like, disease or illness or something, and that's why that that happened, because a normal person just wouldn't do that.

[Sarah Trelevin]

This is the question I keep coming back to. With everything we now know about Caitlin, what else don't we know and what is she truly capable of?

[Jamie Poisson]

I was like, how does this even work here? Like, how do you guys hire someone like that?

[Sarah Trelevin]

That's next time on the Caitlyn's Baby. We made numerous attempts to contact Kaitlin Braun outlining the allegations made through this series and inviting her to respond to what has been said. She made it clear to me that she didn't want to be involved with the podcast. The invitation remains open to Caitlin should she change her mind and wish to respond. This is a CBC and BBC World Service production. The show is written, researched and produced by me, Sarah Trelevin. It was also written and produced by Kathleen Goldhar. Extra production support from from Andrew Friesen and Alexis Green. Sound design and scoring by Mitchell Stewart. Emily Quinnell is our digital coordinating producer. Our senior producer is Veronica Simmons. The fact checker is Emily Matthieu. Our executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is our senior manager and Arif Narrani is the director of CBC Podcasts for the BBC World Service. Kat Collins is the senior producer and John Mennell is the podcast commissioning editor. A BBC World Service and CBC Podcast production.