Love, Janessa | Episode 7: Fantasy Meets Reality

Summary

Summary of "The Con: Kaitlyn's Baby"

Episode: Love, Janessa | Episode 7: Fantasy Meets Reality

Release Date: March 6, 2023
Host/Author: CBC & BBC World Service
Description:
In this compelling episode of The Con: Kaitlyn's Baby, Sarah Treleaven delves into the intricate web of online romance scams centered around Janessa Brazil, an adult entertainment star whose image has been exploited by numerous scammers. This episode, titled "Fantasy Meets Reality," explores the emotional and psychological toll these deceitful schemes have on both the victims and the unwitting individuals like Vanessa Braun, whose likeness is used without her consent.

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Introduction

The episode opens with Hannah Ajala, the host, setting the stage for a deep dive into the world of online scams and their real-life implications. Vanessa Braun, a woman whose image has been hijacked by scammers, becomes the focal point as she interacts with Roberto Morini, a victim deeply affected by the deceit surrounding Janessa Brazil's identity.

The Unraveling of the Scam

Hannah Ajala introduces Vanessa sitting on her blue couch, navigating a sea of unsolicited emails and video calls from strangers who believe she is Janessa Brazil. Vanessa expresses her frustration and emotional burden caused by the constant barrage of messages:

Vanessa Braun [02:24]: "I replied on the same day at 11:23am and let's see, I did say it's a recorded video. They're using it to scam you."

Vanessa's struggle is emblematic of the broader issues surrounding identity theft and online manipulation. Despite never engaging in such scams herself, Vanessa finds herself inadvertently entangled in a network of deceit that has caused significant distress to both her and the victims.

Roberto Morini: A Victim's Perspective

The episode takes a poignant turn as Roberto Morini joins Vanessa for a video call orchestrated by Hannah. Roberto has been a significant financial contributor to the scam, sending over $250,000 in an attempt to build a relationship with someone he believed to be Vanessa:

Roberto Morini [03:44]: "I want to hear each other's voice and share some closure about all of this."

During their conversation, Roberto grapples with the realization that his perceived relationship with Vanessa was orchestrated by scammers. His demeanor shifts from hope to resignation as he begins to understand the depth of the deception:

Roberto Morini [10:12]: "I have learned so much not only for my own self, but also for all the connections and relationships that I had had and even the ones that I am experiencing right now."

Roberto's introspection highlights the psychological impact of prolonged deceit and the difficulty in distinguishing genuine emotions from manipulated sentiments.

The Extent of the Deception

Hannah Ajala probes deeper into Vanessa's background to uncover the truth behind Janessa Brazil's multiple identities. She meticulously questions Vanessa about her life experiences, revealing discrepancies that suggest Vanessa has no connection to the elaborate scams:

Hannah Ajala [05:35]: "Have you ever scammed anyone online?"

Vanessa Braun: "No."

Further questioning dismantles the facade of Janessa Brazil, establishing that Vanessa has never operated in regions or contexts commonly associated with the scams, such as Ghana or Italy. This section underscores the sophistication of the scammers and their ability to manipulate identities seamlessly.

The Role of Sakawa Boys

A significant revelation in the episode is the introduction of the Sakawa subculture in Ghana, which plays a pivotal role in the execution of these online scams. Hannah Ajala explains how these organized crime rings specialize in creating fake profiles to dupe victims worldwide, including Roberto:

Hannah Ajala [06:43]: "They trade Handbooks, names and images and create fake profiles to dupe their victims."

This insight into the operational mechanisms of the scammers provides listeners with a broader understanding of the systemic nature of online romance scams and the challenges in combating such organized deceit.

Emotional Toll and Healing

As the conversation between Vanessa and Roberto progresses, themes of healing and closure emerge. Both individuals confront the emotional aftermath of the scams, acknowledging the deep-seated trauma and PTSD that result from these experiences:

Vanessa Braun [17:38]: "I had a little panic attack because I'm so used to having such a negative outlook in regards to this situation."

Roberto, on the other hand, reflects on his journey towards acceptance and understanding, emphasizing personal growth despite the pain:

Roberto Morini [13:28]: "It's strength, the one that I gained after all these years."

Their dialogue serves as a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the possibility of finding peace after enduring significant emotional turmoil.

The Broader Implications

Hannah Ajala concludes the episode by reflecting on the broader societal implications of online romance scams. She highlights the desperate search for love and connection in the digital age, which scammers exploit to devastating effects:

Hannah Ajala [27:00]: "The victims... are searching for connection, for intimacy, for the human touch in the digital space."

Vanessa's aspirations to write a memoir and train as a therapist symbolize a move towards empowerment and using her experiences to aid others, showcasing a path forward in the aftermath of such deception.

Notable Quotes

• Vanessa Braun [02:24]: "I did say it's a recorded video. They're using it to scam you."
• Roberto Morini [10:12]: "I have learned so much not only for my own self, but also for all the connections and relationships that I had had..."
• Hannah Ajala [06:43]: "They trade Handbooks, names and images and create fake profiles to dupe their victims."
• Roberto Morini [13:28]: "It's strength, the one that I gained after all these years."
• Hannah Ajala [27:00]: "The victims... are searching for connection, for intimacy, for the human touch in the digital space."

Conclusion

Love, Janessa | Episode 7: Fantasy Meets Reality offers a gripping exploration of the human cost behind online romance scams. Through the experiences of Vanessa Braun and Roberto Morini, the episode sheds light on the complex interplay between identity theft, emotional manipulation, and the quest for genuine connection in an increasingly digital world. Hannah Ajala masterfully navigates these narratives, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of both the perpetrators and the victims of such elaborate cons.

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Content Warnings: This episode contains references to medical emergencies, baby loss, sexual assault, and strong language.

Transcript

[Jamie Poisson]

Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson and every weekday I host a news podcast called Front Burner. We do one story a day and we try to give you a deep but not overwhelming amount of information and context. Lately there has been a ton of political news to keep on top of. Canada is facing a pivotal election, there's a power struggle at the heart of the Liberal Party, and the uncertainty of Trump's second term looms over all of this. So if you want to keep up with what's happening, follow frontbrner, a BBC.

[Hannah Ajala]

World Service and CBC podcast production. Before we start, please note this series contains adult themes and strong language.

[Vanessa]

I am logging into my gmail to see if we can find this guy. Okay, here we go.

[Hannah Ajala]

Vanessa sits cross legged on her oversized blue couch, laptop perched on her knees.

[Vanessa]

Hi, I have the need to talk with the real Janessa Brazil. Is the email managed by her or from someone else?

[Hannah Ajala]

She's reading an email we asked her to look for a message from Roberto Morini sent in 2016.

[Vanessa]

I replied, I am the real Janessa Brazil. This was like an hour later. Is you the person in this Yahoo video chat? I've never used Yahoo before, so. And then he sent another one. And in this second video call too, Sosia. So that was a widely used name for me. Sosia. I remember that name.

[Hannah Ajala]

Vanessa tells me she doesn't remember this exchange. She says she's had so many like it. An email out of the blue from a stranger who thinks they know her, whether that's Sosia or Shirley, Janessa or Vanessa. They ask convoluted questions based on a life and relationship that doesn't actually include her. Despite the disconnect and inconvenience, Vanessa seems to care. She says she can't and doesn't answer all the emails. Now there are just too many. And they keep landing in her inbox. Some days it's like a light rain, some days full downpour. When she does answer, Vanessa takes time to figure out what they're asking and why.

[Vanessa]

I replied on the same day at 11:23am and let's see, I did say it's a recorded video. They're using it to scam you. So I did answer his question.

[Hannah Ajala]

Roberta and Vanessa are strangers who live an ocean apart. They've never met before, but their lives are intertwined in a very deep, if indirect, way. You'll recall Roberto was in love with a version of Vanessa. For years, he believed they had a true connection. He sent her affection and money. He says it was $250,000 in total. He traveled the world hoping to rescue her from a life of camming so they could be together. But Vanessa wasn't actually on the receiving end of those grand gestures or bank transfers. She was everything to him. He was nothing to her. When we found out we were going to meet Vanessa, we reached out to Roberto. We wanted to know if he had a message to share with the real Janessa Brazil. He said he needed to think about it. He wasn't sure what he'd say to her. Then he sent us this note.

[Roberto Morini]

After thinking last night about what question I would ask, two only have came in my mind. One is if she would be okay with having a talk with me for a few minutes, just to hear each other's voice and share some closure about all of this. And the second one is if she would ever decide to visit Sardinia and meet me for one day.

[Hannah Ajala]

So, two requests and Vanessa's response.

[Vanessa]

The answer to question number two. No, I'm not willing to meet. Obviously I'm human, so I understand the need for closure. And if I can provide closure to somebody about the situation and it doesn't take anything for me to just say hello to him on on video, I will do that for him. Absolutely.

[Hannah Ajala]

From CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. My name is Hannah Ajala and this is Love Janessa. The story of my wild quest to find the woman whose face and body is the bait used in catfishing schemes around the world. Episode 7 fantasy meets reality now that I have a better grasp of Vanessa's story and the evolution of Janessa Brazil, there are some facts that I need to confirm. I do have a few follow up questions to ask Vanessa.

[Vanessa]

Okay.

[Hannah Ajala]

Have you ever scammed anyone online?

[Vanessa]

No.

[Hannah Ajala]

Have you ever been tempted to use the prolific nature of the scams committed with your image as a smokescreen to allow you to do the same with perfect cover?

[Vanessa]

No.

[Hannah Ajala]

Have people close to you accused you or suspected you of any crimes of this nature?

[Vanessa]

No.

[Hannah Ajala]

There are also details from Roberto and Simon's stories that I want to address. Have you ever lived in Ghana?

[Vanessa]

No.

[Hannah Ajala]

Was your father ex Brazilian military? Now you've never been to Italy?

[Vanessa]

Nope. Never been to that side. Never been to Europe.

[Hannah Ajala]

Have you ever been to Toronto in Canada?

[Vanessa]

Never. Never been up there. The closest to Toronto I've ever been was in Vermont.

[Hannah Ajala]

Then I ask Vanessa if she's ever heard of Sakawa boys.

[Vanessa]

Why does that sound familiar?

[Hannah Ajala]

I tell her what I've learned about the Sakawa subculture in Ghana. The groups of mostly young men who trade Handbooks, names and images and create fake profiles to dupe their victims. How some Sakawa boys make a living this way. The most successful ones live flashy lifestyles and even have high status in their communities.

[Vanessa]

You got to be kidding me. I didn't know it was a business. I thought it was just, like, random people.

[Hannah Ajala]

As I've discovered, there's nothing random about Sakawa. They're involved in hyper organised crime rings. And while Roberto was caught up in the Janessa schemes, he sent money to Ghana. Hannah, the first woman he met online, told him she was living there for a while. To me, this sounds like a crime. Someone impersonating Vanessa's alter ego took money in her name. So I have another question for her. Did she ever go to the authorities to report someone who used her image to scam people?

[Vanessa]

No. Because what are they gonna do? They're gonna look at me and they're like, you're a porn star. And laugh at my face? We got better things to worry about.

[Hannah Ajala]

I want to tell her she's wrong, that she should report the crimes. Scammers should be held responsible for all of the drama, nuisance and heartbreak they've caused, not to mention the money they've stolen. But she feels she has no recourse. This is something that Vanessa has in common with Roberto. Both have been unwitting parties, playthings for criminals.

[David Ridgeon]

Hi. Can't hear me. Okay.

[Hannah Ajala]

It's been three months since our first interview with Vanessa. And since she agreed to a call with Roberto.

[David Ridgeon]

I have my dog here, so excuse if he's, like, jumping on me. You know how he gets.

[Hannah Ajala]

Like so many parts of this story, it took a while to get here. Calendars, technical difficulties. I kept waiting for one of them to back out. So I'm relieved when all of the faces appear on the video call. My producer, Laura, manages the introductions.

[Jamie Poisson]

So Roberto is here. This is Roberto Morini.

[Roberto Morini]

Hi.

[David Ridgeon]

Hi, Roberto. How are you?

[Roberto Morini]

I'm very good, thanks. And you?

[David Ridgeon]

Oh, good. Look at you. Very handsome.

[Roberto Morini]

Thank you.

[Hannah Ajala]

Roberto's at home in Sardinia. It's nighttime. There he sits back in his chair, still sporting an animal print cowboy hat after spending the day harvesting grapes in a vineyard. Vanessa's at home too, in her small town in the US she's curled up on her living room couch. I'm in London.

[David Ridgeon]

Hi, Hannah.

[Hannah Ajala]

Nice to see you again, Vanessa. What a reunion.

[David Ridgeon]

I know, right?

[Hannah Ajala]

We'll call it that. This is something.

[Roberto Morini]

Something very special, actually.

[David Ridgeon]

Yeah, it is. I'm excited. I'm nervous. A little nervous, but I'M very excited.

[Roberto Morini]

Just relax and breathe deeply.

[David Ridgeon]

Yeah, that's a good one. Thank you. I love the accent.

[Roberto Morini]

You do?

[David Ridgeon]

I do.

[Hannah Ajala]

Roberto looks calm but focused, ready to launch into this moment that's been years in the making.

[Roberto Morini]

It's very interesting for me to finally have had the possibility, not only to see in real time, Vanessa itself, because after all that have happened, it has always been something that in my heart was a true desire. So I want to thank you for real, to be right now physically dedicating this time to make this possibility become a reality.

[Hannah Ajala]

As Roberto speaks, I can see Vanessa begin to relax, like she'd been holding her breath and just remembered to exhale.

[David Ridgeon]

I do want to start this off by saying I truly am sorry that you went through what you went through. I know the pain is not the same. It was painful for me too. It is not. It's not okay for that to happen. So I truly do apologize from the bottom of my heart, and that's why I'm here. I just want to put a smile on your face and kind of give you some kind of closure so you can move on.

[Roberto Morini]

You can be aware, know that I feel okay, and I really want you to be able to feel okay as well.

[Hannah Ajala]

Then Roberto takes a moment to reflect on how and why he became the victim of such a long con.

[Roberto Morini]

For me, obviously has been a situation that have caused a lot of stressful situations. The whole thing was like a continuous fight, even with my family or with my friends, even if maybe other people would actually warn me about, like, just get to check everything properly, don't fall for this. I would just keep going on it. You know, I wanted to get to the bottom of it because it's not even possible for my own self to let something undone.

[Hannah Ajala]

It's hard to reconcile this Roberto with the man who sent the thousands of messages and hundreds of thousands of dollars to a woman who doesn't exist. The man who pleaded with her to quit camming and start a new life with him in Italy. This Roberto seems so clear eyed, so measured. He sits noticeably still throughout the meeting, like if he moved, the moment might cease to exist.

[Roberto Morini]

Regardless of everything that have happened, I am grateful because I have learned so much not only for my own self, but also for all the connections and relationships that I had had and even the ones that I am experiencing right now, because I truly know that it's possible to communicate her to earth, even with someone that has never been able to be physically one in front of the other.

[David Ridgeon]

You do learn from these Unfortunate experiences. That's part of life. And I just feel like I definitely learn about myself too. So it's just kind of looking at the positive light.

[Roberto Morini]

It's strength, the one that I gained after all these years and after all these situations and all the time and all the energy. And it came from the fact that I could actually feel love within myself. And it was because of you.

[Hannah Ajala]

Because of you.

[David Ridgeon]

You made it happen for yourself. It takes a lot of strength. You got to dig deep, you know, but you're there. You just got a permanent grin on your face, a permanent smile. And it just makes me feel really good. I wasn't sure how I was going to find you today. Like you know how you felt. And I'm very pleasantly surprised. Usually I don't come across these meetings, you know, about the situation.

[Roberto Morini]

Of course you don't.

[David Ridgeon]

With someone that has a smile on their face and has found happiness. So it's a breath of fresh air.

[Roberto Morini]

It's a blessing for me right now, I'm telling you, it's something that I have been dreaming about for years.

[Hannah Ajala]

I could be watching a movie unfold scene by scene, but these aren't characters. They're real people who've suffered in different ways and are now healing. It's all going so well. But then there's a shift in the conversation. Roberto has a question he wants to ask.

[Marcia Young]

I'm David Ridgeon, host of the award winning podcast Someone Knows Something. Each season I investigate a different unsolved case, from a mysterious bomb hidden in a flashlight to to two teenagers killed by the kkk. The New York Times calls SKS a consistently rigorous, intelligent gem. And Esquire named the series one of the best true crime podcasts of 2021. Find Someone Knows Something. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Northcott]

Canadians have plenty of reasons to pay attention right now. But not everyone has a daily news habit.

[Unknown]

So if you're hoping to build one, we're here to make that really easy.

[John Northcott]

I'm Marcia Young.

[Unknown]

I'm John Northcott and we host World report.

[John Northcott]

Give us 10 minutes every morning and we'll give you the biggest stories happening in Canada and around the globe.

[Unknown]

Whether you're tracking wildfires, leadership races, or threats to our national sovereignty, we'll help you understand what's going on.

[John Northcott]

You can find and follow World Report wherever you get your podcasts.

[Roberto Morini]

I just have one question that may sound stupid, but this is for you. It's really the first time that you actually get to talk with me and see me, and there has never been any Kind of connection within messages between me and you in the past.

[Hannah Ajala]

Despite evidence to the contrary, does Roberto still believe that he once had a relationship with Vanessa? That maybe the relationship was real? Vanessa's caught off guard.

[David Ridgeon]

I don't know. I think Hannah did we look for the email from him?

[Hannah Ajala]

The email Vanessa's referring to is the one and only exchange from Roberto that she found in her inbox.

[David Ridgeon]

Someone was using a piece of my private show, or like a member show, and they cut that a piece out of it. But it was me in the video. But you weren't speaking to me. You know, it was a recording, so that's what it was.

[Hannah Ajala]

Other than that email, one of hundreds she sent to the scorned men in her inbox, she says she'd never contacted him. And any proof he thinks he has, that was faked by scammers. So, no, Vanessa doesn't have a past with Roberto. Roberto spent so much time among photos, videos, messages that featured Vanessa's face and body, it's like she imprinted on him. He believed his own eyes. Underneath his big cowboy hat. Roberto sits with this reality for a moment, frowning a little. Eventually, he nods.

[Roberto Morini]

Okay.

[Hannah Ajala]

After an awkward pause, I asked Vanessa how she'd felt as she was getting ready for this conversation with Roberto.

[David Ridgeon]

I'm going to be completely honest. I had, like, a little panic attack because I'm so used to having such a negative outlook in regards to this situation. And I haven't been on camps in so long, so I didn't know the reaction that I was going to get from Roberto. And I was shaking, you know, I wasn't feeling very well, But I knew this needed to be done, not only for him, but for me as well. It's part of the process, as they say. This is definitely a healing process. So that's how I felt.

[Hannah Ajala]

Roberta, how does it feel like seeing Vanessa on screen right now?

[Roberto Morini]

A blissful sensation. Because it's something that, as I said, I always envisioned for so long that right now, having it manifested, even if it's just because of this situation and I may not be talking with her ever again in my life, it's something that really got me into the position within myself to say, okay, I finally am seriously seeing and talking with the person I thought I was talking to all this time.

[David Ridgeon]

Oh, here it is. It happened. You manifested it.

[Hannah Ajala]

If you had a message for people who have been in a position like Roberto's, what would you say to them?

[David Ridgeon]

The first thing I would say to them, Be aware. If something doesn't Feel right. Possibly is not right. Do your research. I was just telling this to one of my friends the other day. Love is blind. Don't send money to somebody you've never met. You know, I don't care if you bet online or a video. It can be fake. Everyone is smart. But when it comes to love, we can be so dumb. I know, I've been there. I kick myself in the butt, you know, it's like, damn, I'm smarter than this. So it happens to all of us.

[Roberto Morini]

With all the information and the accessibility that we have right now on the whole Internet and the world infrastructures that we have developed, it's very easy to detect that something is real or not. But right now, all those people that has been kept in a naive state, like myself, for example, may still fall for that. Because you can actually be fully, deeply in love if even with someone that you have never met physically. And that love is seriously healing for not only the one that is experiencing it, but also for the one that is receiving it. Because directly or indirectly, you actually got my love.

[Hannah Ajala]

Aww. The call is starting to wind down, but Roberta has a few more questions for Vanessa and he takes his chance. He knows he might not get another.

[Roberto Morini]

Something that I actually had always talked about, like, how is she really feeling about all this catfishing and all this stuff that is going on?

[David Ridgeon]

It's very sad. I have, like, ptsd, you know, I'm very traumatized. I didn't want to get on cam anymore. I didn't want to do anything with it anymore because it was just so depressing to. It encountered these gentlemen going through these things and being so angry, and I didn't understand. I could feel their bad energy through the videos, through the cam, and it's just. It was growing like cancer inside of me. I just couldn't take it anymore. So I completely quit.

[Hannah Ajala]

Then Roberto asked something that's clearly been nagging him for a very long time.

[Roberto Morini]

Have you ever thought that those kind of situations have presented themselves because of the lifestyle and the choices that you have made in your life?

[David Ridgeon]

You know, when I first started doing Janessa, this whole scamming thing wasn't anything like this the way it is today. When it started to happen, I thought it was just going to blow over. It just got worse and worse and worse. I was just doing my job, what I had to do. It wasn't a lifestyle, it was a job. It was like, I went to work, came home. I was a different person. I did what I had to do to make my Money. I had a whole separate life. I was married. I owned a house at dogs. I had a normal life, completely different from the online person. Are there some things I could have done differently? Maybe. But it just grew to be a monster of a thing. At that point, there was no going back.

[Roberto Morini]

I accept and respect the fact that you say it wasn't a lifestyle, it was a job. But a lifestyle contains also the job that you make because it makes part of your time being used as a way to express a part of yourself.

[David Ridgeon]

Right. But most people don't have an alter ego on their job. I had to be a different person, completely different than a normal person. So I had to be careful to not let Janessa become Vanessa or vice versa. You know, my ex husband didn't marry Janessa. He married Vanessa. So I needed to stay conscious as to not have both of them mixed together. You were never in my shoes. You don't know what I had to do to survive or the work I had to do. So unless you walk in my shoes, you can tell me all day long what I could have done and I couldn't have done. This is Vanessa. Vanessa has panic attacks. Janessa does it. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Hannah Ajala]

Few victims of online romance scams have the chance to resolve the messy and deceitful relationships they get caught up in. But Roberto says he's come to terms with his scamming journey.

[Roberto Morini]

Finally, I can have really the last step of this world chapter of my existence to be fully understood. Because it's something that I was really longing for from so much time right now. Knowing that I can be sure that from the other side of the world, there. There is a person that can accept the fact that regardless of everything, there is nothing really to worry about or to be scared of, but that you can be sure that from me, at least, you will never get hate.

[Hannah Ajala]

They've been talking for over an hour, and the conversation has come full circle.

[David Ridgeon]

I usually get the stage where they are in denial, angry and in denial for you. You've made peace with it, and here you are a better man. It's definitely heartwarming for me. So I do appreciate meeting with you today.

[Roberto Morini]

I am thankful to you so much.

[David Ridgeon]

I'm glad we got to do this. All right, hon.

[Roberto Morini]

Bye, bye, bye, bye. Have a great day.

[Hannah Ajala]

Vanessa's gone, but Roberto doesn't hang up right away. He's beaming.

[Roberto Morini]

I hope you can feel it and see it like, I'm just happy about all of this. I am really grateful. I can feel that Right now, probably the weight on their shoulders is lifting away a little bit more. And I am really happy for that. These two people really have went through something like what really happened in the life of these two people? Like what the heck did they go through? Her parts made me realize even today how difficult has been for her. Way more than I thought because in some moments, like I was feeling earthy hours, even during the cold like sensation of overflowing emotions trying to move on.

[Hannah Ajala]

I felt that in my conversations with Vanessa too. She's matter of fact when she talks about how the stream of scams has affected her life. But the depth of the hurt breaks through from time to time and you can see the toll it's taken. When I first spoke with Roberto all those months ago, I had serious doubts about whether we'd ever find Janessa Brazil. I also didn't know who my producers and I were searching for beyond the obvious. The adult entertainment star who'd unwittedly become an online girlfriend to so many. But we were compelled to keep searching. And everyone we came across was searching too. Searching for connection, for intimacy, for the human touch in the digital space. Maybe that's a complicated way of saying this turns out to be a love story of sorts. The victims, many isolated and longing for affection, put themselves out there to find the one. They're willing to see the good, believe what their hearts crave, despite the fields of red flags all around them. The Sakawa boys, unlikely other scammers, many live on the margins with limited opportunity. Some do it for money and status, some to support their families. They know the fuel that runs the scams is that search for love. And Vanessa, the bright kid from Brazil who survived a difficult childhood, dreamed of a glamorous existence and used the Internet to make it happen. She uploaded her life and she bore some of the repercussions, good and bad. But Vanessa says that shouldn't be surprising, especially when you're living and working at the outer limits of the human desire for connection.

[Vanessa]

That's what love is, you know? Love is not safe. You're just going to either dive in or not do it at all. So I don't do things half ass. I do everything full ass.

[David Ridgeon]

So if I'm not willing to love.

[Vanessa]

Someone full ass, I'm not gonna give them half love. What's the point of that? That's not fair.

[Hannah Ajala]

Vanessa's literally working on her next chapter now. She's writing a memoir and training to become a therapist, which seems fitting. She certainly has a lot of experience to draw on and share. Near the end of our interview, I asked whether she'd ever get her website up and running again as a way to make some money. Her response wasn't one I expected, but probably should have.

[Vanessa]

I hate taking pictures. I hate taking selfies. I always did, but I had to for work. Can barely get a picture of myself now. My friends are like, come and take a picture. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm good.

[David Ridgeon]

You guys take a picture. I'll take a picture of you.

[Vanessa]

But I hate taking pictures unless I really have to.

[Hannah Ajala]

Lucky for her, she doesn't have to take pictures anymore. Love Janessa is produced by Antica Productions and Telltale Industries for the BBC World Service and CBC Podcasts. I'm Hannah Ajala. Our producers are Katrina Onstad and Laura Reguer. Associate producers are Hailey Choi and Simona Rata. Sound design and audio mix by Philip Wilson with help from Cameron McIver. Executive producers are Stuart Cox and Jago Lee at CBC Podcasts. Emily Canal is coordinating producer, Chris Oak is Executive producer and Arif Nurani is the Director at the BBC World Service. Anne Dixie is Senior Podcast Producer and John Mennell is the Podcast Commissioning Editor. Our podcast art was designed by Natalie Weinberg. Our cross promo producers are Amanda Cox at CBC and Chris O'Connor at the BBC. The CBC video producer is Evan Iguard. Special thanks to Simon Debressel and Ben Asamoa at Antica Productions and Telltale Industries Development Executive Lisa Gabriel Associate producers Zana Sharmi and Paula Santana Development Consultant Lena Presswood Associate sound mixer Cameron McIver additional sound design by Mitchell Stewart at CBC Podcasts. Cecil Fernandez is Executive producer. Tania Springer is the Senior Manager of audience. Leslie Merklinger is the Executive Director. Everyone involved in the BBC World Service Digital and social team. Kathy Derrick is the Senior Editorial Policy Advisor at the BBC World Service. Thanks for listening. A podcast from the BBC World Service the Bomb Season two uncovers the story.

[Jamie Poisson]

Of Klaus Fuchs Klaus Fuchs was a brilliant theorist. He was a brilliant mathematician.

[David Ridgeon]

He was highly respected.

[Hannah Ajala]

They had to have a nuclear weapon. Fuchs became almost completely invaluable and his secret double life.

[David Ridgeon]

Klaus Fuchs was the perfect spark.

[Jamie Poisson]

He'd given the Russians the plans to the plutonium bomb. This was going to change the world.

[Hannah Ajala]

Search for the bomb wherever you found.

[David Ridgeon]

This podcast A BBC World Service and CBC Podcast production.