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Dinosaur National Monument: A Giant Fossil Graveyard | The Creation Podcast: Episode 116
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- [00:06]
A
When you stand on the cliffs overlooking Dinosaur National Monument, the landscape almost feels frozen in mid motion. Towering canyon walls, layers of sediment stacked like pages in a history book. An entire dinosaur skeleton still embedded in the rock. It shows evidence that something powerful swept across this place, buried creatures in an instant, and left behind a massive stone record of catastrophe. I'm your host, Trey, and welcome to the Creation Podcast, the show where we discuss how science confirms scripture. Today we're looking at one of the most famous fossil graveyards in the world, Dinosaur National Monument, and what its geology, fossils and landforms tell us about Earth's past. Joining me today is Dr. Tim Clary. Dr. Clary, it's great to have you back on the podcast.
- [00:54]
B
It's always great to be here.
- [00:55]
A
All right, before we jump in, Dr. Clary, could you maybe remind our viewers and listeners about your qualifications and how it lends itself to today's discussion?
- [01:04]
B
Today we're going to be talking about geology. And I've been doing geology, and I was a professional geologist for about 40 years, a little over 40 years. So since I got my undergrad, my graduate degrees, and went back later for my PhD in geology. So I've got multiple degrees in geology, and I spent a lot of time digging dinosaurs. I used to teach a dinosaur class at a college. I taught at kind of an introductory class, but went out to the same formation we're talking about here, the Morrison Formation, which was the same rock unit that's at Dinosaur National Monument. As I dug in many places, like in Thermopolis, Wyoming, and even in our boss's land, Dr. Galuza's land, where he has the same outcrop of the same rock unit there. So we've been finding dinosaurs. I've been digging dinosaurs from these same rocks in multiple places across the American west over many years.
- [01:52]
A
Absolutely. Well, two points. One of these we won't include in the podcast. But how does it make you feel to know that you were a professional geologist longer than I've been alive?
- [02:02]
B
A little old, but, you know, it goes by fast. Time flies fast. Once you have kids, as you're gonna find out, you're gonna be 50. You're like, what happened?
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A
I already feel that way. Also, Thermopolis is beautiful. My wife and I went to Yellowstone and we just Dr. Thermopolis, and it's such a beautiful place.
- [02:21]
B
It's got nice red rocks exposed, you know, the rocks underneath, the rock layers that we're talking about here. But it's still really, really pretty.
- [02:28]
A
Do you just go and you're like, oh, these rocks are so beautiful. And you just stand there in awe and wonder sometimes.
- [02:33]
B
Sometimes just the beauty that God left behind from the flood. The flood was a judgment, but he left behind all this beauty. These mountains and the uplifted rocks that we see, which is what exposes the dinosaurs, or they'd be buried under thousands of feet of. But fortunately, there were mountains that popped up, came up as the end of the flood year, mostly like the Rockies themselves. And that exposed a lot of these dinosaur bones and the layers that they're buried in.
- [02:56]
A
Absolutely. Well, thank you for that and thank you for allowing me to pick at you a little bit, but it's okay. So to set the stage for today's discussion, Dinosaur National Monument sits right on the border of Utah and Colorado. And it's known for its canyon walls, colorful rocks, and specifically, what it's named for is dinosaur fossil beds. But what does all of that actually mean? Can you describe what makes this particular site just so fascinating in the grand scheme of things?
- [03:29]
B
Well, it's one of the sites in the early 20th century. It kind of continues what they were doing in the 19th century. They would find all these dinosaurs all over the American West. And many of them, they found out later in the same rock unit in this. What's called the Morrison Formation, named after the town of Morrison, Colorado, where they kind of first described it. So many times when they name a rock unit, they'll name it after where they first described it and some geographical feature, in this case the town of Morrison, and there's still dinosaurs there. They dug a lot of dinosaurs out of there of the same stegosaurs and brontosaurus or apatosaurs, same type of dinosaurs. And so here we are a little bit further away, a little further to the west on the other side of Colorado, right on the edge with Utah. The closest town is Vernal, Utah, actually, to this dinosaur National Monument. But it kind of straddles both states on the very western edge of Colorado, easternmost Utah. And it's very spectacular. I get around a lot when I talk to people. I say geology is color coded. God color coded the geology for us. So we see red beds. We kind of know those are generally the Triassic rocks below this. And you see the Morrison Formation is very distinctive colors as purples and grays and almost white layers. Very, very distinctive. And that's why it's been the same rock unit name all over the American west, from Canada all the way down to New Mexico and places. So it's one of those massive Features that were deposited, we believe as a flood deposit, all at one time. You know, multiple layers, but extensive, very, very extensive, covering about seven states plus parts of Canada. The landforms are there primarily because of the uplift. So the mountains that formed as the flood water was receding, you had all these mountains that kind of popped up, including the Rockies, and that exposed these amazing layers. And one of the sites here that became the main visitor center, the quarry, so to speak, was discovered in 1909 by some workers who were working for the Carnegie Museum out of Pittsburgh. And that guy named Earl Douglas found I think eight vertebrae of an Apatosaurus, which at the time they called brontosaurus. And so they realized later that these are the same animals, essentially, Brontosaurus, apatosaurus. So more people would know it as a brontosaurus, especially at the time than today. But it was a spectacular discovery and they kept going back. He set up camp, he even took his wife out there. Unusually, he took his wife out to help dig on the quarry and his little, I think one year old child. And it was very cold. They didn't have much ability. They just kind of built a shack and stayed there. So it must not have been as much fun for her.
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A
I'm sure the one year old was doing great work digging in those rocks.
- [06:00]
B
Probably not, but nonetheless it was interesting. It made a family affair kind of, in some ways, because he's going to spend a lot of time out there digging and found lots and lots of specimens for the Carnegie Museum to the ship back into Pittsburgh. So if anybody listening to this is in the Pittsburgh area, it's well worth going to that museum just to see the specimens.
- [06:19]
A
Absolutely. Well, so you've mentioned the Carnegie Museum and Earl Douglas in particular. Why was the Carnegie Museum so interested in this location to begin with?
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B
Well, they wanted some dinosaurs. Dinosaurs tend to be a big draw. So people were out looking for dinosaurs. They started finding them in this 1870s, particularly out in the American west with Cope and Marsh, the so called dinosaur wars. And so a lot of museums wanted their own specimens and they said, we want to get our own. So they'd send people out, they'd pay them to go out and look for dinosaurs. And Douglas had heard some reports from some of the earliest geologists that were mapping in the area. The very beginning of the mapping of geology in the American west, kind of headed by a guy named Ferdinand Hayden. And so he had mentioned that in this area there were some bones sticking out of the rocks, something in one of his reports. So they kind of Went to that area to look.
- [07:09]
A
That sounds promising.
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B
Yeah, it's hard to just go out there and look blind. Today, even most scientists don't go out there just looking blind, just wandering around. You know, you gotta see who owns the land. First of all, even a lot of it is federal land, you still have to know it. So we rely as paleontologists. If you're working in paleontology, they often rely on ranchers, you know, who will herding their cattle around or driving on the roads. And every so often with more weathering, you'll get more exposures, especially in the spring with a lot of rain and snow melt, you'll get a lot of things exposed that weren't exposed the previous year. So new specimens show up all the time. And so in this case, they went out there looking because they'd heard in these early reports there were dinosaurs, or at least big bones. So you went looking for them and happened to find quite a site there where they're actually articulated to some extent. It means they're still together. Most times you'll find a bone here. Like in Theropolis, we see the bones all skated and pulled apart. Multiple specimens all in a bone bed, almost like a log jam, but they're all torn apart. Here he was finding specimens that were somewhat still together or articulated.
- [08:14]
A
Two pieces to that. It's fascinating to kind of hear like the process of like, oh, some rancher just calls up his local geologist and is like, hey, I see some bones over here. And the paleontologist is like, yeah, I'm in on that. Let's go.
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B
Well, usually it's a university.
- [08:31]
A
Right? Right. I mean, just imagining the process. I mean, the world is big. It'd take forever to just start digging and hope to find something.
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B
Yeah. If you go to the west, you'll see that there's not much around.
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A
Right.
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B
You get these big huge ranches in Montana and Wyoming and Colorado. You get out to these remote areas. It's just the land and the woods and wild animals and not much civilization as we call it.
- [08:55]
A
Right, okay. Well, then we mentioned like the dinosaur quarry a little bit. Why are so many bones still preserved there? Why didn't they, like you had mentioned the bone beds. Why is it not so torn apart? Why is it not so scattered or weathered? Why is it the way that it is?
- [09:14]
B
Well, I think some of these areas, you can think of a log jam again. Sometimes when the floodwaters are coming in, you get all these dinosaurs and these different animals and even a lot of wood. There's A lot of other things mixed in there. We'll talk a little bit more about that later. But you'll get all this kind of log jammed in there where these animals get kind of torn apart and kind of washed in in a big wave that comes in. And then as the wave recedes and the next wave comes in, sometimes you'll catch these animals all kind of lumped together, just like similar to a log jam. But in this case, I think they wanted to preserve part of it that once they made it a national monument and they expanded, different presidents expanded over the years. They wanted to preserve a wall of that, to kind of show people what it was like before they started digging them out. So they took a lot of bones out, but then they left this one wall there particularly to show people what it looked like as they were exposing them. And so they covered it over as a big building you can go into. It's pretty amazing to go see that site because some of the specimens on there are somewhat articulated, are somewhat complete. And there was a complete young juvenile Camarasaurus, which is another long necked dinosaur, which is the wrong head that they put on the Brontosaurus for many years. It was kind of a short, blunt head because usually even this specimen that Earl Douglas found didn't have a head. They found most of the specimen and there was no head. And so he thought maybe she put this long head on that he found somewhere else, kind of like a horse's head. And he was correct. But they were afraid to put that on there because some of the early paleontologists had such influence and they had put a blunt head on. They put the Camarasaurus head on the Brontosaurus by accident. So for many, many years, they had the wrong heads on most Brontosaurus specimens. And then. And the Camarasaurus or the Camarosaurus, they had the Camarasaurus head on a Brontosaurus. The Apatosaurus. Brontosaurus thing is a different matter altogether.
- [11:04]
A
There's a lot of confusion and it
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B
has to do with one was identified first as a juvenile, one was an adult, and they named him two different specimens.
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A
Gotcha.
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B
But neither one of them had a head.
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A
Right.
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B
So the head was a whole different matter altogether. So it's kind of a confusing issue. But eventually they sorted it out by finding more specimens.
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A
Gotcha.
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B
More data always helps.
- [11:22]
A
That's right. That's right. Well, then let's talk about the Morrison Formation. So that is of course, the rock formation that's holding all of these dinosaur fossils. But what is it? I know, you've mentioned that it covers a number of states, it covers a lot of land, and it's pretty exciting to geologists and paleontologists. How do you conventional paleontologists describe how this large sheet forms?
- [11:50]
B
Well, it's somewhat confusing because it is such a mix of things. So they try to argue. I was looking over reports, some of these reports that I pulled in here today. Many of them say that they're rivers. There are these lenticular or long lens like sandstone layers in some cases that kind of resemble rivers. I don't think they're true rivers in part of it, but most of the Morrison, the bottom part particularly, and even the upper part, these beds are very, very extensive. And as far as you can see, as far as you can see from hill to hill to hill, it's the same layers. And we see this throughout all the rock units. Basically, when you go to the west, you see, like, Grand Canyon, the same sort of thing, whether they're tilted up like on the Rockies or not. It's the same layers stacked on same layers stacked on same layers. Very little discontinuity, which you'd expect. So the evolutionists, they have to explain away, though, as these slow rivers that migrated back and forth, meandered back and forth, deposited in these sediments just over time. We really don't see a lot of evidence of rivers, particularly the bottom part of the Morrison. Bottom part of the Morrison is full of marine rocks, ocean rocks, full of marine fossils, and even some others are mixed in the layers that they say are supposed to be rivers, you know, land deposits. And so they kind of just, you know, don't bring those up too often. But I've got a stack of papers here that I can show you. You know, these are evolutionary papers where they actually admit there's a marine fish found in the layer. The same brushy basin member, which is where the upper part of the Morrison, which is where you find most of your dinosaur bones, like dinosaur and Ambushimanum. But they still are finding marine fish. And they try to say, well, this should be considered as being an identified, you know, fish or just a questionable. But it's.
- [13:33]
A
There might be a fish, but they
- [13:35]
B
do find things like glauconite sands, which are these green minerals that are usually indicative of marine environments. They find limestone beds, some of these are fairly thick with ripples in them, things that, again, commonly deposited in marine areas. They found dinoflagellites, which are microscopic marine critters that indicate, you know, this is ocean water that's being transported in from as we would say in the flood, these big waves coming in from the ocean bringing all these things in. They found oysters, crabs, you know, snails, brachiopods. And even in Canada they found a few ammonites, which you find here in Texas, these round, curled up specimens. They might have been the straight ones, I'm not sure, it doesn't say which kind. There's straight ones and coiled ones, but those are always marine, always ocean influenced. So there's a major amount of fossils in there that many, you know, paleontologists, the evolutionary paleontologists really kind of say, well, it's just a limited areas, but it's mixed throughout the rock unit. Even in the unit with the dinosaur bones, there's marine fossils. So as a flood model, that's what you'd expect, right? You'd expect. And I see that as I studied the rocks all over the world here at icr, I've looked at all seven continents now. I see every continent shows the same patterns, but it also shows marine mixing bringing these waves in from the ocean, the tsunami waves, as they get higher and higher, they're bringing marine animals in, like these big marine reptiles in Kansas and all the way up into Canada and places. But they're also mixing in smaller critters, like these dinoflagellates, these little microscopic things that when you look in the microscopes, you can see them all there. But to me, ammonites, you know, those kind of things, these marine fish, the glaucoma sandstones, the limestone beds, all this attest to a strong influence of the ocean. It isn't just a simple river system. And then the extents of these layers, you know, you might have some sand layers that come and go, and that's what they interpret as rivers in part of the Morrison, but for the most part, even the part where you find the dinosaurs, it's the same reddish, purplish rocks, the same, you know, underneath you'll see the same white layers. That's what makes the Morrison so identifiable and so distinctive. That's why when we first went up to Dr. Galuza's land a few years ago on one of our expeditions, we. I said, no, this is the Morriston. I knew right away, just by the sight of it, just by the colors, that this is the Morriston, which I looked at 100 miles away or more.
- [15:52]
A
And so these are the neatly stacked layers that are, like you said, color coded for us.
- [16:01]
B
That makes it very unique. And it's on the average maybe 3, 400ft thick, the whole rock unit. But A lot of it's got strong influence of marine or ocean. Marine is the ocean, basically. But in case you didn't know, because sometimes people get confused and wait, what's marine? Well, it just means these are ocean minerals. Are these ocean fossils or both in terms of ocean deposits, like limestone? Most limestone is from the ocean as well.
- [16:26]
A
So they claim it's river, but the evidence shows that, like, yeah, this is sea, this is ocean.
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B
Yeah. They've got one comment in here they said. But they even try to say that rivers were depositing limestone. I'm like, how does a river. Where in the world do you see rivers depositing limestone today? Limestone's always, you know, if you're lucky, you might get a little bit of limestone in a lake, you know. But it's kind of a different type of limestone than the ocean limestones. We see, like these walls behind us. These are all limestone from Texas, from the flood. But, you know, it's formed in the ocean. Most people don't try to. But in this case, they have to because they find dinosaurs. So if you find dinosaurs, you gotta say, this is a land deposit.
- [17:07]
A
Right.
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B
You know, it's the same argument they make where they say a lot of these critters, they must have been freshwater fish. But in this case, they have found things that are only found in the ocean today.
- [17:17]
A
Right.
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B
And found other environments in the world, even though they're fossils or they're interpreted as ocean environments. So sometimes they kind of back themselves into a corner and they can't get out of it. But they do still. You know, the standard model is these are mostly, you know, river deposits, supposed to be these old soil deposits and all sorts of things. But the soils, they claim their soils are mostly based on chemistry or colors. You know, some of those reddish and purple colors are supposed to be soil horizons. But again, there's no evidence of rooting. There's no evidence of trees in most of those. There's no, you know, soils. Today, I've dug a lot of soils, studied soils. Part of my coursework that I taught for undergraduate classes in environmental geology, we used to dig in 6ft down soils, and you see all sorts of roots and things mixed in throughout. But that's not what we see at these. They just see a little difference color and, oh, that's a paleo soil. They call it paleo soil, but they spell sol at the end. And so there's a lot of interpretation and wishful thinking, I think, on their part, to make this fit into a standard evolutionary timescale. Of these rocks were deposited over millions of years, and then the next unit above and the next unit above. But it's interesting in Wyoming, where this. In Utah as well, a lot of this area underneath the rock layer right underneath here. The Morriston is often a marine rock. Everybody accepts it's a marine rock, but
- [18:39]
A
then the one above it, and then
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B
the one above it, I think might even be in some cases, too. It depends on where you are. But the Morriston, the extent of the Morriston, the continuity and the same colors, the same schemes across the entire American west, from Canada all the way down to New Mexico. To me, how do you explain that with rivers that are slowly working their way across over millions of years, you would expect to see a lot of differences, the uniform layers that we see. So to me, it screams flood.
- [19:07]
A
Yeah. Okay, so when we look at not just Dinosaur National Monument, but the Morrison Formation, we see these layers, we see these colors, we see things that shouldn't be there if it was formed by a river, et cetera, et cetera. So what does that tell us about, like, when you're looking at this, as a geologist, you said, oh, this looks like flood. But what can we infer about specifically how this was formed?
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B
Well, you'd have to argue if you didn't have any preconceived ideas and you looked at these things and didn't say, okay, I found dinosaurs. It's got to be land. If you just looked at the rocks, you'd see these rocks go the same order, the same color order, the same approximate thicknesses. It may thin a little bit here or there 100ft over the course of hundreds of miles. And. But the consistency that you see, and even the rocks above and below across this vast area in the American West, I mean, it isn't just this layer. You go down to the Permian layers below this, which is earlier megasequence type of thing. And you can go down there and you can see where John Whitmore has mapped out the Coconino Sandstone from Arizona all the way up to Wyoming. And it covers almost the same area, the whole American West. You know, it's not just this Morrison. There's multiple layers that show a sandstone, in this case, the Coconino Sandstone equivalent, goes all the way up to Wyoming. They call it something else because it wasn't as distinctive as the Morriston. The Morriston's one of those rocky units where every state called it the same.
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A
Yeah, you know what it is?
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B
Most places will change from state to state, but it's still there. And we see the same thing with the Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon. The bottom of the stack of piles of flood rocks we see that goes all the way across the United States into Canada and all the way to New York and Michigan and places like that. It's all the same sandstone layer. It's only about 200ft thick on the average, maybe. So how do you, you know, these blanket deposits to me tell you there must have been some big, you know, event that was depositing stuff uniformly across vast areas. And so some type of advance of the sea is a better explanation for these than just saying these are rivers, they're moving around. And sometimes the scientists will say that for, like, the Tapeats Sandstone equivalent. They may argue these are beach sands that are being transported in. But even then, you'd expect to see less continuity than what we see right
- [21:36]
A
across such a huge area.
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B
So these big blanket sands or these big blanket deposits, there's often articles in the secular literature about how to explain those, because they know that's a problem, but they really don't have a solution to explain these massive units. They just try to tell everybody when they're taking geology classes that these are deposits every millions of years by rivers.
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A
Don't think about it.
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B
And just imagine over millions of years, but don't think about the details. Don't think about that. You're seeing, you know, this is supposed to be rivers. There shouldn't be all these marine fossils. There shouldn't be all these marine minerals. There shouldn't be limestones. There shouldn't be the glauconite. There's even some where they found some salt, evidence of what they call evaporites, you know, gypsums and salt layers in the Morris. And in places, to me, that's again telling you that's ocean. Those are ocean deposits that only form in the ocean today, or from at least evaporating of ocean. But in this case, it can precipitate out. But nonetheless, if you just looked at this and just looked at the rock layers where they show, you see layer upon layer upon layer, just like you'll see all over the earth in the same general order. And the Morrison is just one of those layers that's in the point where you're starting to get where the water floodwaters are getting pretty high and you're flooding a lot of the land at this point. You haven't quite got to the peak of the flood yet, but you're approaching it. So you're wiping out the dinosaurs, washing them off the land, lots of plants. Land plants are mixed in with them as well. They get lots of tree branches and things. And that continues for the next couple units all the way up through what we call the Cretaceous. So the Morrison is called Jurassic. The next layer above would be the Cretaceous, and that's really the. Those are all part of the Zuni megasequence, which my research has been showing. That's probably the peak of the flood.
- [23:13]
A
Yeah, we'll show a picture of the megasequences and the various layers because they'll
- [23:18]
B
explain what you're saying. Yeah, that's why I try to explain some of this. But to me it's the consistency that we see across the American West. But sometimes there's rock units, as I said earlier, the Tapeats equivalent goes even bigger.
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A
Yeah, but the Rockies and rivers can't produce that.
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B
Rivers don't. I mean, how would you. It's just rivers are mostly a little bit of sand and then mostly clay.
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A
Right.
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B
And so even these sandy layers that they're saying are rivers may just be from the waves coming in, the waves going back. Sometimes you're going to get these little. What may look like a sandy, you know, almost a channel of sand, but it doesn't mean they're actually river channels.
- [23:55]
A
Right.
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B
So they don't look like the rivers. Again, how do you deposit limestone in rivers, like they say? And so it's a direct quote in one of these papers. And there's another feature that I think is really amazing, which is called this welded shirt, which is called again an old paper from the 60s here shirt
- [24:10]
A
spelled C H E R T Chert. It's a rock.
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B
It's a rock. It's similar to flint. People call it flint or chert, and this is an example of it. It's about this thick. In many places there may be one layer or a couple of layers all within the. And it's been studied since the 1960s by the USGS and they talk about. They call it the welded Church. It's been found in Kansas, Nebraska, New Mexico, South Dakota, Utah, Wyoming in the Morrison Formation, all at the same approximate level in the Morrison Formation. So you got a 400 foot layer. It's always found at the same spot. And shirt still is a bit of a mystery of how it forms this layered shirt like this. But it is all generally accepted as an ocean and ocean rock. This is.
- [24:53]
A
What is it made of?
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B
Microcrystalline quartz. So it's what makes arrowheads, where people chip away their arrowheads and make Flintlock muskets. They used to find shirt like this and shape it and put it in their muskets to fire back to make the spark. That's silica. It's SiO2, same as sand, but in this case it's a microcrystalline variety of a really, really fine crystal. You can't really see without a microscope, but it makes those kind of smooth, very sharp edges if you chip it just right. But this is the example from the morris information from Dr. Glus land that he found. And you can see the layers right there. It's in this amazing. This little thin 1 to 3 inch chert is all across 7 different states
- [25:35]
A
and it generally in the same. Conceived as marine.
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B
Yes, it's marine. Nobody would argue about that. They just don't bring it up much. So most of these papers, only one of these five or so papers that I just printed out before we came on to do this, only one of them mentions this chirp. Well, most of them kind of ignore it. Well, they say it's obviously it's a marine deposit, it's a problem. But you know, to explain the pervasiveness of this little thin layer right across five or so states, you know, pretty much the whole Morrison formation wherever they see it, always at the same level within that 400 foot thick rack unit. Sometimes it's one, you know, just one layer. Sometimes there's a couple, you know, maybe five or six of these, but they're all in that same general, you know, area. Oh, how do you get that consistency across that area of a little thin layer like this?
- [26:24]
A
Right.
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B
Without water spreading across very quickly depositing that. Now exactly how it forms again is a mystery even to the evolutionary geologists and creation geologists as well, we don't really know. But everybody agrees this is an ocean deposit that shirts can only form in the ocean maybe from some high silica content, maybe some geochemistry change in the water. But you can lay out this. But again, to get that thin of a layer. If this was rivers, of course they'd chew that stuff right up. Carbon decide and be gone. But it's always there is silica.
- [26:56]
A
This is way outside of my wheelhouse, but I've heard you mention silica before in regard to explosive volcanism like silica rich magma. Would this be like Earth's baking? This was baked with heat and chemistry?
- [27:12]
B
No, it's just probably got some organics in it mixed in there. That's why it turns it dark. A lot of times it's a lighter Color. It can be a lot of different colors. It can be gray. It's commonly gray a lot. So if you ever see people with flintlock muskets, they'll pull them back and they'll have a little piece of gray chirp form down there to hit the spark on the metal to set off their gun putters. They can fire their musket like the Revolutionary War days.
- [27:35]
A
That's what they had, all the people who still have their flintlock muskets.
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B
So if it was raining, if it was raining, you couldn't fight. You had to get your old swords out or just use your bayonets. At that point back in the day, you didn't know if your musket was going to go off every time you fired. Did it get the spark in the right spot?
- [27:54]
A
So it does produce a spark.
- [27:56]
B
It does produce a spark against metal, against steel and things like that, or against each other. You can kind of hit it against each other. It's very hard. It's a 7 out of 10 on the hardness scale. Start a fire, you can scratch glass with it. Diamond's a 10, Sapphire's a 9. And this is a 7. So this is the most common hard mineral on Earth, and it's one of the most common elements, si, or just silicon and oxygen together. Those are the two most common elements in the crust that God created for us. And that's why beaches are generally sand, because it's very hard, durable mineral, which is silicon dioxide, which is kind of what this is.
- [28:31]
A
Right.
- [28:31]
B
And that sand, it's very common. And so granites will have these little quartz crystals in them. This is just microcrystalline quartz, a little different variety, which seems to precipitate or somehow come out of water. Ocean water. But the key is, it's ocean water.
- [28:48]
A
It's ocean water.
- [28:49]
B
And you can't form this with rivers.
- [28:52]
A
Right. So they just don't know. Right, Perfect.
- [28:56]
B
Well, they don't know where it comes from, but they all agree that this is ocean derived. And we do too, as creationists. But we can explain that thin little layer, these little cherts, this thin over the whole area with the flood model, better than they can with these individual rivers moving back and forth across, cutting it all up, which should chew this right up.
- [29:16]
A
Right.
- [29:16]
B
It should be discontinuous just here and there, not everywhere.
- [29:20]
A
Well, then the question is, what happened to. Let's bring it back a little bit closer to the Dinosaur National Monument. So when it comes to Dinosaur National Monument, what happened to the dinosaurs there? What caused this graveyard, specifically in this
- [29:38]
B
location, they died one day.
- [29:40]
A
Easy peasy. There's your answer.
- [29:42]
B
They were caught up in the flood. And these tsunami waves were coming in, being generated by the rapid plate movement as we envision it as creation geologists. And so these waves are coming in higher and higher, and they eventually were starting to reach the environment where the dinosaurs were living, which might have been a lowland area before the water went over the top, or the highest hills. This would have been the lower hills, maybe are kind of a lower elevation, swampy type area. So they were caught up in there. The plants were stripped away by the tsunamis, the dinosaurs are swept away. And they were collected in this big, almost like a log jam. In this case, they kind of stayed together a little better. They stayed more articulated here than many of the dinosaur deposits we find around the West.
- [30:29]
A
Even not as violent.
- [30:31]
B
Yeah, maybe not as much. Maybe in this case, they maybe weren't tossed and turned or transported as far. And so you never know really how far they were transported. When they're banging into things in each other, they slowly get ripped apart. In this case, they didn't get ripped apart as much. And so many of them are partially still together. Like, you'll see whole eight or ten vertebrae or even more. Or in the case of. Not too far from the site, Dinosaur National Monument, they found a complete juvenile Camarasaurus, which is a small sauropod dinosaur. I think it's only about 15ft in length. The adult ones would have been 50 or more. Some of these are 90ft long or more. So that's insane. And so they get, you know, that's another whole matter, you know, how'd they get that big? But that's for another podcast.
- [31:17]
A
Yeah, that's another podcast. Okay, so they died in the flood. So zooming out from all of that a little bit from the Morrison Formation and Dinosaur National Monument. So this is really cool. We can consider, like, oh, you know, the dinosaurs died, they were swept away in the flood. The layers were formed. But important to remember that this is like a real land form that formed sometime historically. And so, like, what is. When you consider this, what is the meaning for Christians who want to, like, connect this account with scripture when they want to. This is what I see. And maybe the signs are telling me millions of years. What does it mean for me as a Christian and historically? What do I do with this? What do I do with this, mentally?
- [32:07]
B
Well, first of all, when you go to these sites, all you're going to read is signs that are pushing millions of Years, evolutionary stories, you know, slow rivers slowly migrating across here, deposit, all this. And it all sounds good, and they show pictures and drawings, but when you think about it and you see what's really in them, like I talked about today, what's contained within that rock unit in addition to the dinosaurs, you know, something's not right here, because why would I have all this mixing of land and marine things all mixed within the same rock unit that covers pretty much the entire American west, seven states or more.
- [32:39]
A
So ask some questions.
- [32:41]
B
And so, yeah, I want people to think when you go there. And so don't just accept what you're being taught there by the signage and by the books that they sell. They don't always tell you the full story. They just tell you the story. They want you. And that's unfortunately what you learn as a geology student. You learn a lot of good science, but they also taint it all with this evolutionary story. And they just say, here, look at this, look at this, look at this. They don't want you to really think about, okay, why is there no erosion between these two layers? And the same thing is true of the Morrison. You see the same colors over and over and over, stacked as far as your eye can see in all directions. If you can follow the Morrison for maybe miles, several miles, it's the same consistency, you know, same layers. There's no evidence of erosion between the layers. Even though the Morrison was supposed to have taken, you know, probably several million years to deposit that unit. I have to go back and check the exact number. But most of the units that are deposited 400 foot thick, they would assume would take quite an amount of time. And there's really no evidence for that. It's the consistency that's there. So I want people to think about what's there, maybe even do a little background work. Take your ICR article that we've put out online and put in our Parks book.
- [33:52]
A
Yeah, Parks Across America.
- [33:53]
B
Parks Across America.
- [33:53]
A
We'll link that right there.
- [33:55]
B
And take those with you and read through those and see there's another story that you're not being taught here. And what it is, it shows evidence of a flood, of a massive flood is the best explanation for all the things we see there. The mixing of land, the marine, the extents of these layers. To me, it tells you that the Bible is true, right? It really was a true global flood. Because it's not just our continent, not just North America, it's all the continents. They all show the same general pattern.
- [34:22]
A
And you've done A lot of work,
- [34:23]
B
as I looked on every continent, just finished it up, continent number seven, and unfortunately, Antarctica didn't take as long because so much of it's covered by ice. But we do.
- [34:32]
A
We'll send you down there.
- [34:33]
B
We do have data we've just compiled, and my colleague is just kind of running through it today. He's still processing the data. But every continent shows the same general pattern. Same rocks in the same order, same fossils in the same order. You don't always get the same. All the megasequences. You'll get certain ones, but when they're, you know, you'll get like sequence one to sequence three. You never get sequence three to sequence one. It's always, you know, one through six or some. You might have a couple missing in there. But it's the same order.
- [35:02]
A
Right.
- [35:02]
B
And it's because the flood progressed. It was a progressive flood. We found out by this study that I've pretty much completed now that every kind of started out flooding just a little bit, just shallow marine areas first, and then eventually the water was pushed higher instead of flooding the lowland areas where you start to get the dinosaurs and the swampy things, then eventually the water went even higher yet and went over the highest hills, and you see more mammals, bigger mammals that lived at a higher elevation. And the plants changed too, just like elevation today in a mountainous area along the like. For example, in Costa Rica, where I visited many years ago, you go up the mountainside, you see different plants as you go up in elevation because the air temperature changes as well. And so you would expect to see different plants at different elevations. That's what we see. So plants didn't evolve, animals didn't evolve. It's just that water will bury in the flood. And the dinosaurs are in that kind of. That middle. You start to flood the land. And then the dinosaurs were even the dinosaurs. You can tell the Triassic dinosaurs distinctly from the Jurassic dinosaurs, which we see here, from the Cretaceous dinosaurs. They're very distinctive. They must have been at different elevations. And I think a lot of it has to do with the food that's available. The plant food source that God gave them were at different elevations. So T. Rexes ate a certain type of plant. Stegosaurus ate a certain kind of plant. Allosaurus ate a certain kind of plant. So you get dinosaurs living consistently at the same elevations that were buried before the other. It might have, just might have. The elevation differences might have been just a few hundred feet, but it was enough to keep them near that food source. Now, I know Dinosaurs were eating each other. T. Rex was eating other animals and things like that, but they were still eating plants, which is what God designed them, originally designed them for animals before Adam and Eve sinned. They were designed to eat these green herbs. The King James says everything ate plants. But I don't think you're going to stray far from your food source. Even if you're still eating meat, you're still going to like that particular plant or two that you were designed to eat. And even today, they cut open alligators and dissect them. And the evolutionary biologists, why are they eating all these plants in addition to maybe somebody's dog or duck or something like that? They're still eating plants because that's what God designed them to do. And unfortunately, many of those plants aren't very prolific today. And so the animals, of course, ultimately the dinosaurs, went extinct after the flood as well. Part of it might have been because they didn't have their local food source. You know, they didn't have their local store that was giving them all their food that they stayed near. So if the food is there, they're going to stay there. And that's why I think one of the reasons why they're so ordered in terms of the burial that you see consistently see the same, what we call Jurassic, just based on the fossils they find dinosaurs and their plants is different than the Cretaceous dinosaurs and their plants because it's. I think they. That's just my hunch. They didn't stray too far from their food source, which you and I don't.
- [37:57]
A
Right.
- [37:57]
B
We always have to have a store down the street.
- [37:59]
A
That's right. That's right. And I'm grateful for it. Yeah. So to clarify, it's not order of evolution, it's order of burial.
- [38:09]
B
Exactly.
- [38:09]
A
Okay.
- [38:10]
B
I think that explains the consistency globally better than the evolutionary story, because they would say something evolved on one continent. How did the same thing happen over here in another continent? Separated by water because Pangaea had broken up at that point, by this point, even in their stories. So they create problems for themselves. Sometimes. They find dinosaurs way up north in Canada in these little remote islands. They'll find them way down in Antarctica. And they're like, well, how do these things live down here when there shouldn't have been a lot of sunlight and it should have been pretty cold? And that's another whole topic in itself.
- [38:46]
A
Wow. All right, Dr. Clary, I know that as a geologist, you were very excited to talk about this and some of the other geological forms that are around Dinosaur National Monument. So one particularly striking feature is Split Mountain, where the Green river actually cuts right through the rock. And we know, like from physics and other formations, that a river doesn't just go straight through a rock typically, it'll tend to work its way around. So what's up with that?
- [39:18]
B
What do you see? That's what you'd expect. But there's many examples all around the American west and around the world for that matter, where you have an uplift that came up later, after the rocks were deposited, like these dinosaurs are deposited. Then you have this uplift that took place, and you get a big fold like this. And in this case, the. The river, like you say, cuts kind of right through the middle of it, sometimes a little bit of an angle. But why wouldn't it go around? If this is a big uplift, that's what it should do.
- [39:45]
A
Right.
- [39:46]
B
Yet we see these rivers going right across these. We even see that at Grand Canyon. The beginning of Grand Canyon goes through the Kaibab uplift at several thousand feet. And they try to come up with ways to explain how that can happen. There's one at Rattlesnake Mountain in Cody, Wyoming. As you're going from Cody into Yellowstone, you go right through a mountain.
- [40:04]
A
Yeah. And our editor will put up pictures of all of these.
- [40:07]
B
And there's one at Royal Gorge, where I did my dissertation area. It cuts diagonally through this big uplift. It doesn't cut straight across. It kind of goes diagonally across.
- [40:17]
A
Right.
- [40:17]
B
But it cuts the canyon 1100 foot deep because the uplift is 1100ft.
- [40:22]
A
Right.
- [40:22]
B
Why wouldn't it just go around? So that's been a big problem for the evolutionary scientists to explain. They've been studying these landforms or studying geomorphology for many years. And one of their best explanations. I don't know if it's best, but one of the most common explanations, which I still think isn't very good, is stream piracy, where streams form on these uplifts, like this uplift. You had an uplift like this again. One stream forms this way and goes that way. Another stream forms up here and goes this way. And they just happen to line up almost the exact same spot. And eventually one stream cuts further in and actually pirates. Pirates kind of steals away the edge. They join and one steals the other stream.
- [41:03]
A
Okay.
- [41:03]
B
And that just works its way right through. But that's a lot of coincidences and a lot of it's just. To me, it's just. It's an attempt on their part to explain this over Millions of years of time because they disregard the flood. But if the water was above these features at one point and these uplifts come up, just like if you have wet sand, you pack it all down in your legs at the beach, even if it's wet, and then you move your legs, it's gonna crack. You're gonna see lots of cracks and kind of lift your legs up, almost like a little uplift, and lift it up, you're gonna get cracks that form and many of these cracks go diagonal across. You know, if there's an uplift like this, you're gonna have a lot of stretching and you're gonna get cracks that go right across this way, in addition to fuel going this way. And so if the water's up here, it's gonna be able to come down and then starts to drain off in a particular direction, like in this case to the Gulf of Mexico from the Rockies all the way out, you're going to start getting water to go through that crack. And the more it goes through that crack, the more it's going to keep cutting down in that crack. So water follows the easiest path. Right path of least, I always say. I say college students follows the easiest path. Takes geology instead of chemistry, but geology gets harder later. But it's to me that explains these rivers cutting through all these uplifts all over the American west and all over the world for that matter. Better than just this random stream piracy. That still doesn't make any sense because one river would still keep going this way, one would keep going this way until you get them both down. THEY ARGUE Then you get a stream, oh, it's going to suddenly flow this way. To me, odds of that happening are quite. Makes sense, are pretty slim. And yet you see this all over. So it's the common. If it's just one uplift, they'd say, okay, maybe, but it's very common all over the world.
- [42:51]
A
So you're saying, okay, so let me see if I'm understanding this right. So visually, water is above all of it currently, and then not currently. Back then, during the flood, water's above all of it. There's still some crust, mantle, tumult, and it pops up an uplift, which cracks it. And. And then as the water recedes, some water continues to find its way through
- [43:17]
B
that crack and it just keeps widening that crack. And that's kind of how Grand Canyon formed too, we think, you know, it's the same thing. You got all these cracks in the whole Colorado Plateau came up 5,000ft during the end of the flood year, at the same time, the water was receding. So you get. You can go right through the Kai Bab uplift initially and keep draining towards the Pacific, in that case, because it tilted towards the Pacific Ocean to the west. But you get all these other cracks coming in these big, huge canyons just as deep because you had water coming in all directions because it was all above. And so the water's flowing out this way, this way. And eventually it all went out to the Pacific Ocean, getting its way out there. But it all kind of all was above that at one point and even eroded off a lot of sediment to get to that point, even to where we are at Grand Canyon today, maybe several thousand feet of sediment were removed from that whole environment. Same thing is true at Dennis National Monument. Maybe several thousand feet of material was removed just to get through these exposures we see today. And even Split Mountain, a lot of that was as uplifts. A lot of it erodes off the top. But you know, why the river cutting through it. To me, the flood explains those types of things the best. Whenever you see a water cutting through an uplift, you should wonder, how can that be?
- [44:25]
A
Had to be something catastrophic.
- [44:27]
B
It had to be something where the water was above it. That's the best explanation. The water came down and followed cracks. Okay, because water will follow the easiest path, like you say.
- [44:36]
A
Okay, well, then when it comes to the interpretation of things like this, do you feel like there's just a pattern of reinterpretation? Like they know something is quote unquote true, but then they find something that doesn't fit it, and so they just kind of like try to reinterpret it, or like you said, when it comes to the church, just ignore it. Is there a pattern of that here?
- [44:59]
B
There is to some respects. They downplay things that don't fit the story. And so they have a good story going because they have the majority opinion. They've kind of convinced most of the geologists for the last 150 years that evolution is the way to go. Millions of years, billions of years are the way to go. So that's all they ever teach in these colleges. And a lot, even Christian colleges teach the same thing, unfortunately. And so they don't. They're not trained to look through these papers like we do and say, okay, what are you really finding? Let's look at the details. And so when you look at the details, the details don't add up to a simple river system that slowly migrated or soils that developed over Thousands of years. And then they don't look like soils, they don't look like rivers. The deposits we see today, you may get a few little channels of sand here and there from the waves kind of coming in and going out. But the extent of these layers, to me scream. Something much bigger had to have occurred to deposit these sediments that big. And it isn't just the Morrison, it's again multiple layers above it, below to cover huge, vast areas. The names might change a lot. And the Morrison is so distinctive because it's so beautiful with the colors that it was identifiable everywhere you went. But many places they found a sandstone, they didn't realize it was the same sandstone they'd found in Colorado and Wyoming and Arizona until later, until they dug a little deeper. But then they realized these are massive as well. And so to me, they don't, I guess they downplay, almost like lawyers arguing your case in court. You only bring up the stuff that's helping your client. You try to downplay the other stuff, the other side's bringing it up. But we're such a small voice that we don't get. You know, they can easily ignore us. And so that's unfortunately, when a lot of my research is ignored. They'll say, well, Tim, the few that will respond, they'll say, we love your research, we love your data, we just don't like your interpretation. And then I say, well, how do you interpret it? And they kind of walk off and not really say anything other than the standard story. But what I'm finding doesn't support their story at all. It shows a global progressive flood. Every continent does the same thing at the same time, burying the same things at the same levels. Just what you'd expect if the water was continually going higher and higher and higher. And that's what we see. So Dinosaur National Monument is a massive, you know, exposure of just these wonderful dinosaur fossils. But it shows the catastrophic death as a judgment of the flood that the Bible there really is true. There really was a flood that happened 2500 BC or so, give or take. And it really did happen. And you read about your Bible, you know, people believe the Bible, they believe this, believe that. Why don't you believe the flood story? Those old Earth geologists, they just can't grasp that the earth could be young, but they don't think about anything other than what they're taught in the secular universities. All the evolution in the millions of years and they're caught up in it. So a lot of well meaning Christians are still caught up in the old evolutionary stories, they still teach that, they still believe that because that's all they've ever been taught. So I encourage our listeners to go out there and search through our website, iser.org and look up papers. You have questions, look it up. There's only a few of us in the creation world in general over the years, but we have a lot of information out there that can really help you and show you there's an alternative to what they're teaching you at these sites, even Dynasty National Monument, all the national parks. And that's why we're doing that park series, because we want to tell people there's another story to this that fits the Bible, fits the flood, or the Ice age after the flood, or all these different features that we see all over the world. And geology, it's wonderful. I don't know why more people aren't geologists, but I'm kind of glad they're not. Then there wouldn't be jobs for all the geologists we have. But to me, it's just, it's stunning. It's beautiful. The landforms, the rocks, the fossils, all that stuff all ties together and it all points to one thing, the flood. One judgment that God said he was going to do and he did. And there's going to be another judgment. He's going to come again, judge the earth again.
- [49:06]
A
But he provided a way out.
- [49:09]
B
Amen. Through Jesus, he provided a way out for those of us. Our sins can be forgiven if we repent and accept Jesus.
- [49:17]
A
Absolutely. Well, what we're seeing is that Dinosaur National Monument is more than a fossil site. It's a massive record of rapid burial, powerful water flow and continent wide geological activity. And those observations fit incredibly well with the global flood described in scripture. So, Dr. Clary, before we close, what final thoughts or key takeaways would you like our viewers to remember?
- [49:43]
B
Well, three things I want you to remember that you can see clear evidence for the flood in these rock layers, particularly in the Morrison. The extensiveness, the extensive nature of it and the continuity, how extensive it is and how continuous it is. Even thin little layers like this, they go for five or six different states to me, screams flood. There had to be some massive flooding event to take place. So that's the first thing. Secondly, I want people to realize there is massive graveyards of these dinosaurs that we see. These quarries they've been digging, they're all over in this rock unit, they're all over in other rock units. So we see massive graveyards even in the early sled rocks. Of marine invertebrates, marine critters that don't have a backbone. Seashell things, corals. All over the world, we see a record of fossil graveyards, whether they're, you know, marine animals, little invertebrates, brachiopods, clams, all the way up to dinosaurs and mammals. Everything, to me, that's evidence of rapid burial. Because to make a fossil, you gotta bury it fast and deep, and the flood provides the best opportunity to do that. So these massive graveyards, particularly at Dinosaur National Monument, had to be from a massive flood. Yeah, absolutely. And third, rivers shouldn't flow through uplifts. Rivers should not. That should be a clue, like something's wrong here to the standard story.
- [51:02]
A
Right.
- [51:02]
B
Rivers should go around, as you mentioned, and not go through it. So that tells you the water was probably higher than that uplift at one point. And the uplift came up. And as the water was draining off, as the flood ended, God did remember Noah and the animals on the ark. The water drained back off to the oceans. It carved a lot of these channels through fractures in these uplifts. Even though they were still soft and wet, they were packed down pretty well. Just like packed down sand, they're gonna crack. So clear evidence from the flood of these flat, extensive layers all over the world, particularly including the Morrison Formation. Secondly, fossil graveyards making these massive deposits of fossils, not just dinosaurs, but all fossils.
- [51:42]
A
Yeah.
- [51:42]
B
And third, and finally, that rivers shouldn't flow through uplifts.
- [51:46]
A
Yes. Thanks again for joining us, Dr. Clary, and thank you for watching. Don't forget to like and subscribe and share this episode with someone who loves learning about creation science. You'll also see our members and patrons names scrolling on screen. Maybe on this side. Maybe on this side somewhere on screen. If you'd like to join that community, you can click the link below. One of our viewers actually sent in a question for you, Dr. Clary.
- [52:11]
B
Okay.
- [52:11]
A
S. Kamilku said, I know there are plenty of dinosaur fossils that were caught mid flood, but can you shine a light on fossils of people? Are there human fossils that have been found due to the flood?
- [52:25]
B
That is a very good question. We're trying to resolve that, actually. But there are very few human fossils that have been reported and on display. There may be more that aren't reported and are not on display. There's some rumors about that. Some people have asked some museum curators and they say, well, we've got more hidden in the back, but I don't know. You know, that's kind of hearsay. So I don't know if that's exactly the case or not, but if humans were the last thing buried, and the highest hills, living in the highest hills, they're going to be the last thing deposited. And if you're not buried deep, you're not going to become a fossil. And the uppermost layers, of course, were the layers would have been deposited last, would have been the first thing eroded as well. And so God does say he's going to wipe off humanity off the Earth. And he did, wiped it right down to the crust. These highest areas are areas that are now like Canada today. Much of Canada is just crystalline basement or just crust exposed without sediments. And so he wiped it right down to the crust. And those animals and humans that were probably living there at higher elevation, not living with the dinosaurs, but living at the same time, were wiped off. And many of them might have ended up in the oceans or might have been destroyed and never became a fossil. They might have rotted away if you're not buried deep enough. And so there's multiple reasons why, you know, if you're the last thing buried, you're going to be the last thing deposited, you're going to be the first thing eroded, right? And that may explain why there's still a few human fossils. But I think, you know, we're looking into that. ICRs taking a look at that. There's some of us on our science staff that are really interested in trying to see if they can see. Are these really human fossils? There have been a few that have been found in places with older rocks that are out of place, so to speak, but they've been reinterpreted by the evolutionary community as well. These were buried later. And so some of these, it's very difficult to go back and study because they were found in the 19th century and they didn't document it as well. We didn't have photography back in those days. And it's hard to. If it doesn't fit the model, you can't get it published. And so it gets ignored or put on the back shelf somewhere. And unfortunately, I don't think there are a lot of human fossils to begin with, because I think they were the last thing buried. Humans were the last things hanging on, clinging on.
- [54:34]
A
They could climb to the highest hills.
- [54:36]
B
They all had a chance. Noah preached. He said, you can get on the ark. And there was more room on the ark for more people, but only eight people got on the ark. And so we all come from those three sons of Noah and their three wives. And you can look at the DNA and there's three major branches of DNA that all humans kind of fall into. So the story really does make a lot of sense of this flood. But the geology is the evidence that I see of the flood everywhere in the world. The consistency is there, but the lack of human fossils is a question I get pretty commonly. So it is a good question. I don't have the best answer because I don't have data to back it up. It's kind of a lack of data. But I think when you think about the order of burial, they would have been the last thing buried and the first thing deposited and the first thing eroded or even washed right off directly. We do find dinosaurs 70 miles offshore in the ocean that they drilled oil well into in the North Sea off Norway. Core about this big around. They pulled it up, and they identified a plateosaurus bone from a particular dinosaur from that little core, just. And it's about a mile below the top of the ocean bottom, a mile deeper than the ocean bottom, and it's 70 miles offshore. So we know that these waves are now bringing things in, marine animals and things in, but they're also washing things out. Yeah. And so a lot of humans might have got washed out as well at the end.
- [56:00]
A
And water does damage to flesh.
- [56:02]
B
Yeah, it's. It's a good question, though. Very good question.
- [56:06]
A
Awesome. Well, thank you for the answer.
- [56:08]
B
My attempt at it.
- [56:09]
A
Yeah, your attempt at it. And we'll see you next time on the creation podcast.
- [56:13]
B
Okay.
- [56:13]
A
And we'll see you next time on the creation podcast as well.