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The Creative Boom Podcast
The Spark: James Greenfield of Koto on Apple Rants, Mr Bingo Dreams & Pitch Mishaps
00:17:53
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. It's another episode of the Spark, and today we're catching up with James Greenfield, CEO and co founder of global brand and digital agency Koto. In Monday's episode, James looked back on a decade of building Koto, from its scrappy beginnings to becoming one of the most respected studios in the industry. We talked about leadership, team culture, what it means to lose your underdog status and how to stay creatively sharp in a fast changing world. If you haven't checked that out yet, please do. It's available. Download, download now. But today we go behind the scenes and get to know James a little better as he answers some of our favourite quickfire questions, including what his most controversial opinion is, what's the weirdest dream he's had lately, and why does it involve Mr. Bingo? What helps him fall asleep when his mind won't switch off? And what's something completely irrational that gives him comfort? This season of the Creative Bean Podcast is brought to you by the School of Communication Arts, which has just launched its SCA Online portfolio, a brand new fully online course designed to help more people break into the creative industries. Find out more@schoolcommunicationarts.com and to enjoy a £500 discount, use our special code. Boom. 500 at checkout. So we're back with James Greenfield from Koto. We're going to have some fun now, James, are you ready for some fun? Fun.
- [01:27]
B
Always ready for fun.
- [01:29]
A
Oh, God, you're a good sport. I really appreciate you doing this. We're going to start off with quite an interesting question, you know, just to make it clear to the listeners you've chosen from a list of questions we supplied.
- [01:42]
B
Let's hope I can remember them.
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A
I feel like this is going to be quite cathartic for you. What is your most controversial creative opinion?
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B
I really should have thought about the answers before I chose the questions, but my most controversial creative opinion. The Apple brand's not that great. I think they make, I think they make great, great products, but I think, used to, I still think they make great products, but I think if you look at their marketing efforts recently, yeah, pretty average. And I think things like Apple TV and Apple Music are two of the most substandard platforms I've ever had to misfortune to use. So there we go. There's my controversial one.
- [02:25]
A
Are you pitching for it? Are you saying, come to us, we'll, we'll help you out?
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B
I'd love, I'd love to. I'd love to get hold of Apple TV and Apple Music.
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A
Yeah. What would you do differently. Give it some personality.
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B
Give it some personality. Merchandise it properly, and make sure that the artists are shown in the. And the. You know, if you put Apple TV next to Netflix, it is dull, shocking that they think that that's an okay product to have out in the world for the money you spend on it.
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A
If you're listening Apple, you need to. You need to come and talk to James at Koto. He's going to sort it all out. They've probably, like, rested on their laurels a little bit. Do you think?
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B
I think there's a misbelief in some kind of minimalism or something going on there, which is just. And I also think there's a. There's a misbelief that Apple. That no thing should be bigger than Apple as a brand. And actually, I think it's perfectly fine that if I open Apple tv that whatever the new show is, is across the whole top of the whole thing. Because, let's be honest, I'm not there to be an Apple consumer. I'm there to consume severance or, you know, whatever else I'm coming to watch. And so therefore, you need to be able to serve me that content. Because what happens is people go to me, have you watched so? And so it's on Apple tv, And I'm like, I don't know. I can't find it. It's got no discovery ability to it. You just go on there and it's just like these tiny little things that you don't know whether you've even selected them or not. It's like, this doesn't even pass Basic ux. It's unbelievable.
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A
Make some good tv, though.
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B
It makes some amazing tv. That's what makes it even worse, which is, like, can't even find it.
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A
What did you think of severance?
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B
I've not watched it all, but I liked what I've seen so far.
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A
Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. It's. It's all the colors, isn't it? It's one of those TV shows that appeals to designers.
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B
Yeah. Beautiful headaches for lovers.
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A
Yeah. Have you followed that Instagram account where they take all the different color palettes from each scene?
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B
Lovely work.
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A
Yeah. Great stuff. So what's your favorite time of day to create and why?
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B
Most of my creativeness these days happens in the morning, and I just feel like since I had children, I get up at horrible o' clock every day, and I've just built, like, a discipline. And so therefore. And I used to, you know, in my 20s, I used to Be an absolute cliche. It was like 10 o' clock at night, drum and bass on, and you can. Could start really getting into stuff. Whereas now I can barely stay awake at 10pm So I am very much a morning person. You've just got, you know, accept who you are.
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A
You have me at drum and bass. I forget that you're the same age as me. We had a lucky time, didn't we, in the mid-90s.
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B
Very, very lucky time. Yeah. And I like the way it just carries on ticking on the background and most people have got no idea that it still exists.
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A
Yeah, definitely. Did you go out clubbing back then?
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B
I did do very heavily, yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
For a good period. Yeah. I was very lucky enough to go into some amazing stuff and see some.
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A
What were your favorite DJs?
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B
Come on, we're having fun.
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A
James.
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B
Yeah, I always so. I always thought Fabian Groove Rider were a really good life and I really liked them.
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A
And yeah, I liked Fabio and Groove Rider. Yeah, they were good. And LTJ Bookham.
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B
Yeah, I was a big Bookham fan. Saw him quite a few times. Andy Seabille always did a really, really good show as well.
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A
Yes. Somebody, just one of one of my friends sent me JJ selects. Have you heard of those yet? Yeah, yeah, really good. Oh, it's just started playing. Stop, stop, stop.
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B
This is where Siri, like, you know, starts just sending. Now I've said it, it's going to send a text, which is someone I've not Talked to for 10 years on the phone.
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A
That's the thing that frustrates me the most about Apple at the moment, actually. You know, I feel like Siri is just this really frustrating companion. The only thing I use it for is to start a timer or ask it what the weather is. And even then it's like really slow and clunky.
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B
I use it in the car and it doesn't always do what you want it to do, but it's better than getting arrested for using your phone.
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A
Yeah, that's true. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
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B
The best piece of advice I've ever received, I think, was you cannot be the complete person. I think is this whole school of thought, which is, you know, do you work on your weaknesses? Do you work on your strengths? What both sides of that fail to understand is that we can't be great at everything. And I think in my 20s, I used to be really frustrated about certain aspects of my personality or my character or my ability, and I couldn't do stuff that Other people I work with were amazing at. But what in that. What I failed to realize was that I had things that I could do that they couldn't do. And actually, the reason I think team works really well is you just have to put complementary skills together and then we're all working together in one group.
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A
I'm throwing in extra questions. I know, but it's just interesting. Have you had any other discoveries lately? In this era of our mid-40s that.
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B
We'Re in, I get accused of being a grumpy old man a bit more than I'd like to, which I don't know where that comes from. My wife said I need to watch more comedy. I'm not sure. I'm not sure that's true. Maybe I do.
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A
Maybe you're just thinking about what's going on in the studio the next day and how are you going to solve this? How are you going to solve that? Or you. Somebody that just switches off can switch off dead easily.
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B
Don't switch off at all. I'm terrible. Like, literally, blearily look at my slack on my phone at 5:30 in the morning and then look at it at like 11pm at night. Now I'm terribly, terribly addicted to work, I'm afraid.
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A
Oh, dear. Well, there you go. That reveals a little bit of Koto's success. You know, it's. It's the drive and the ambition that gets you to where you are. It doesn't come easily. It's not something that you just sort of rock up and at nine o' clock and finish at five and everything just falls into place. It's. It's a big commitment, isn't it?
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B
Definitely.
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A
But you love it. You wouldn't. You wouldn't have it any other way.
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B
No, no, no. I'm perfectly like, I created this. If I didn't. If I didn't like it, I'd be an idiot.
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A
Yeah, well, exactly. What do you do when you can't get to sleep then?
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B
I listen to the same audiobook every time, which is Marcus Aurelius Meditations. There's like a. This is such a cliche, but it's because I've read the book, I don't know, five times and I've listened to it numerous other times that I know it also. Therefore there's nothing revealing in it. And so therefore it sends me to sleep.
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A
Comforting. Is it? With one airpod in the ear that's free.
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B
Oh, both.
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A
Gosh. That's quite a common thing amongst Blakes. My husband puts on a podcast and Falls asleep to it.
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B
Yeah, I don't every night. It's just when I can't sleep. It's also on planes when it's really noisy, pop the air cancellers in and put it on. Soothing.
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A
We're very odd. I put the fan on the lowest setting and he puts his podcast on and we both just pass out. He's like, we have to have the fan on. It's not cold. Like, I need it for the noise.
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B
I love it. It's like Wayne Rooney there. It's got a Hoover at the bottom of his bed to go to sleep, isn't it?
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A
Oh, my gosh. Now please don't compare me to Rooney. My goodness.
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B
Sorry. It was the white noise component.
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A
Yeah. It's a strange thing, you know, you can. It's probably more energy efficient of me. I don't do this in winter to have like, you know, one of those.
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B
I was gonna say, unless you've got like a very warm house. That must be a lot.
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A
Well, it is a warm house. It's a modern house, so we're not used to a modern house. We've always like. The house we were in previously was like a drafty old Edwardian house where, you know, you had slugs and snails coming up the floorboards and having a dance on the carpet downstairs until I came down at three in the morning to go, ha. And pick them all up and throw them out and then they come back the next night for another party.
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B
Where do they all come from? It's irritating, isn't it?
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A
Could make a song out of that. The Lovely Slugs and snails. Did you know you could charm snails?
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B
I didn't know that. I wish I did know that. I've got a bad snail problem in my back garden.
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A
So pick a snail up and start talking to it gently and be really kind to it and then just look at its little face. It'll sort of turn to you and go, oh, hello. There we go.
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B
Learning something every day.
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A
We do things a little bit differently here on the Creative Bean podcast, James. We're not conventional, let's put it that way.
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B
All your gardening tips as well.
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A
Oh, are you into gardening now?
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B
I am a gardener, yeah.
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A
Yeah, we're at that stage, aren't we? What can you recommend I plant next? Because I've got a lime soil, clay soil, a south facing garden, and I just fancy planting something on the right of the fence.
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B
Is there any shade?
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A
There is some shade, yes, at the back.
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B
Hydrangea in the shade does very well.
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A
Okay, thanks for the tip. Okay, there we go. Speaking of random, what's a completely random dream you've had recently or one you never forget?
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B
I have really, really over the top dreams which really freak my wife and friends out. And I'm good friends with the illustrator, Mr. Bingo. He's not an illustrator. He's an artist these days, actually. Sorry. He'll be really offended. I've just called him an illustrator. The artist Mr. Bingo and I had a dream of the other day that he insisted that I called him the way, which made me think of the edge from you two. And he. It was really, really vivid dream where he was incredibly, incredibly serious about it. And I text him the next day and he said that he was worried that I had a very low opinion of him. So sticks to mind.
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A
Is he still taking his clothes off or is he behaving now?
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B
Yeah, no, he's. I literally. I'm like his conservative uncle. I hate his nudity and his insistence on it.
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A
So, yeah, it's a little hashtag something, isn't it? Tell him off. Tell him to keep his clothes on. At least he wasn't naked in the dream.
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B
Oh, no, that'd be awful. That'd be literally.
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A
You know what's gonna happen now? You'll be putting your podcast on later because you can't sleep, because you'll be getting beer Fear after this podcast. And that'll be it. Dreaming about Mr. Bingo naked.
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B
Oh, God, what a thought.
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A
There you go. That's planted in your head forever. What has been your most embarrassing moment as a creative.
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B
The most embarrassing thing is when you present something and it's got some terrible, like, thing in it that I can't see because my mind just doesn't work in that way. So, yeah, I think my most embarrassing moment ever is probably presenting a logo that looked like a penis and not noticing it.
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A
Oh, my goodness. Well, why? Well, yeah, why would you. Innocent mind? You know, I just.
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B
I just don't see things like that. So.
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A
Yeah. Who was that for?
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B
No comment.
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A
Oh, dear. So was that in a meeting? Did they say.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, James. They were like, we like Route 3, but it looks. The logo looks like. And I was like, oh, it really does as well.
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A
So, yeah, I'm sure they gave you another chance.
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B
They didn't pick Route 3. Yeah.
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A
Oh, okay. Good, good. We'll forget about Route 3. This is interesting. What's something totally irrational that gives you comfort?
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B
I really, really enjoy reading the comments on our work, which most people absolutely hate, but I actually get so much enjoyment out of it.
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A
Well, do you know what? They used to not be like that because you were the underdog, because they were like, oh, these guys are lovely and cute. They've got a really nice. Oh, have you? All right, okay.
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B
Yeah, we've. We've got one troll who absolutely, like, merciless, like, pulls every project we've ever done to bits in, like, details. And it used to wind me up, but now I actually really, really enjoy it. So probably I found some kind of, like, inner piece about it.
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A
Yeah, I think you have to, don't you? At some point you build that armor. Because when you. When you work so hard on things, I mean, who are these people that. It's just. To me, I look at it and I think it's just petty and it's jealousy that I can say that. You can't say that I can say that. And when we put these amazing projects On Creative Boom's LinkedIn, we get the same comments sometimes on your projects because we've got our, you know, eyes as a sort of, like, branding part of our branding. We just use the eyes emoji because it's brilliant. We don't have to reply and say anything. We just reply with that. No matter how kind of nasty the comment, we just reply with that. Because it can be a like, oh, okay, or it can be like a, oh, you know, and it calms everything down. It's an amazing, powerful icon that we've got in the process.
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B
So branding. There we go.
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A
There you go. It works, people. You've heard it here first.
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B
You've done something that I've advocated to clients for years, which is if you're going to move towards some kind of symbolism like that, have an emoji which can be akin to your brand, because then you can use it in a very powerful way.
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A
It just kind of happened naturally, to be honest. It wasn't, you know, well thought out or anything. It just. One day we just started using it and that was it. So, yeah, now we always ask each guest every week a question which our previous guest posed. And last week on the podcast, we had Fiona McGarva, who is a fantastic writer, author, event director and the founder of Sunday Communications. She wants to know, do you have a creative outlet you're not very good at?
- [15:36]
B
Oh, that's really good. Like, so I used to be terrible at writing, and I've worked really, really hard to be better at writing because I really enjoyed it. And it used to be appalling and being dyslexic as well, I find it quite Tough. So therefore it's like, that's the thing. But I have an aspiration to be good at painting, but I am awful at it. And it's something I would love to. I don't have enough time for it at the moment, but I would love to be better at. But, yeah, I'm not very good at painting.
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A
All right, well, you've got to buy the paint and the easel and set it up somewhere in the house and.
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B
Just go for it.
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A
Yeah, yeah. What would you paint?
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B
Probably quite weird stuff, to be honest. A bit more surreal, kind of odd things.
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A
Are you saying you're just jealous of Mr. Bingo?
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B
Definitely not jealous of him. No. His is more just satire. Yeah. Kind of madness. I'm not, you know, I think mine would just be a bit more weird.
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A
Yeah. Maybe like an abstract depiction of your shaded hydrangeas.
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B
Something like that. Yeah.
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A
Yeah. Love it. Okay, and what question we're finishing the season now. This season nine is coming to an end, but we will save your question for the start of the next what question would you ask our next guest on the Crave Bean podcast?
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B
What's the most surprising thing about you? That's what I said, wasn't it?
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A
Yes, it was. So what's the most surprising thing about you? Love it. So we will ask our next guest when we're back in September. Well, thank you so much, James. This has been amazing.
- [17:07]
B
Thanks for having me.
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A
Best of luck with Koto, and we'll see you soon.
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B
See you soon. Cheers. See you later.
- [17:15]
A
Thank you for listening to the Spark. And a big thank you again to this week's guest, James Greenfield of koto. It was a brilliant way to wrap up the season. Thanks also to our sponsor, the School of Communication Arts, for making this season of the Creative Boom podcast possible. If you'd like to subscribe, subscribe. Just head to creativeboom.com podcast or find us wherever you get your fix. That's it from us for now. Thank you so much for listening to this season and we'll see you very soon because we will be back with more brilliant guests in September.