Casting A Wider Net: Author Brand And The Writing Business With JD Barker

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers Episode: Casting A Wider Net: Author Brand And The Writing Business With JD Barker
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: JD Barker
Release Date: June 9, 2025

---

1. Introduction

In episode 812 of The Creative Penn Podcast, host Joanna Penn engages in a comprehensive discussion with renowned author JD Barker. The episode delves into strategies for expanding an author's brand, navigating the evolving publishing landscape, and defining success beyond traditional metrics. Recorded on June 6, 2025, this episode offers valuable insights for both emerging and established writers aiming to broaden their reach and refine their business approaches.

---

2. Defining Success for Authors

Joanna and JD explore the multifaceted definitions of success in the writing world. They emphasize the importance of personal fulfillment over purely financial gains, citing experiences and perspectives from various authors.

• Personal Fulfillment vs. Financial Success:
  • Ray Bonnell mentions, “Having many readers is nice, but readers come and go... from my point of view, personal fulfillment is more important than material success.” [02:15]
  • Kendra Vaughan shares, “There's magic in the way stories connect us, heal us, and reveal pieces of ourselves we didn't know were missing.” [03:10]
  • Lucy Munro states, “When I hear from a reader who got through a difficult time because of one of my books... that is success for me.” [04:02]

Joanna reflects on her journey, highlighting that her first book's true success lay in personal growth rather than widespread acclaim. She underscores the significance of authors defining their own success metrics to avoid future disappointments.

---

3. Joanna's Reflections on Writing and Projects

Joanna discusses her contemplation of revisiting poetry, inspired by a friend's podcast episode that showcased the profound impact of concise, powerful writing. She reminisces about her early days as a published poet and considers integrating poetry into her current projects, including a travel memoir and a forthcoming Gothic Cathedral series. This introspection underscores the evolving nature of an author's craft and the continuous pursuit of personal growth.

---

4. JD Barker's Publishing Journey

JD Barker provides an in-depth look into his transition from traditional publishing to indie publishing and eventually establishing his own imprint with Simon & Schuster.

• Transition to Indie Publishing: JD recounts, “I indie published my first novel and got a taste of what that was like... I wanted to see how that would play out.” [16:37]

• Challenges with Traditional Publishing: He faced hurdles like limited access to major retailers and concerns over losing his editor due to industry layoffs, prompting him to seek alternative publishing paths.

• Establishing Barker Creative Imprint: JD explains, “I created my own imprint at Simon and Schuster... I can take that book and say I'm going to put out ebook on my own, I'm going to do audiobook through somebody else.” [19:05]

This strategic move allows JD to retain control over his ebooks and audiobooks while leveraging Simon & Schuster's strength in print distribution.

---

5. Strategic Decision-Making in Publishing

The conversation delves into how JD determines whether to publish a book under his personal brand or through his imprint, balancing control, distribution, and market reach.

• Casting a Wider Net: JD emphasizes evaluating each book based on its potential to reach diverse audiences. For high-profile projects like rebooting the Flatliners franchise, he opts for traditional publishers to maximize marketing and distribution capabilities.

  “With a book that's got like a high profile like this, I know the best possible place for this to go is one of the other traditional publishers... to cast a wider net.” [21:09]

---

6. Co-Authoring Strategy

JD discusses his approach to co-authoring, inspired by James Patterson's collaborative model. By partnering with authors who bring specialized knowledge, he enhances the quality and appeal of his books.

• Benefits of Co-Authoring: “When I seek out co authors, I'm trying to find people that can add something to my mix that I may not be able to do on my own.” [38:35]

• Mentorship and Collaboration: JD mentors authors by guiding them through the writing process, ensuring that the final product aligns with his brand while enriching the content with unique expertise.

---

7. Marketing and Branding Insights

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to effective marketing strategies and the delicate balance between direct sales efforts and long-term brand building.

• Brand Building vs. Direct Sales: Joanna highlights the importance of consistent brand presence, stating, “From a brand standpoint, anytime you can get your name out there, it's good.” [42:57]

• Lessons from James Patterson: JD shares insights from working with James Patterson, who treats each book as a marketing tool to reach new audience segments. This approach emphasizes diversification and strategic branding over repetitive series.

  “Every one of them is a business card that's reaching out to a new segment of people.” [51:18]

• Advertising Strategies: JD discusses his hands-on approach to advertising, including A/B testing on Facebook ads to optimize click-through rates, embracing the analytic aspect of marketing as an autistic individual who enjoys detail-oriented tasks.

  “I'm more interested in getting the tools to help me go deeper, to think differently... it's the AI assisted artisan author approach.” [44:32]

---

8. The Evolution of Author Conferences: Author Nation

JD and Joanna reflect on the changing landscape of author-focused conferences, particularly highlighting Author Nation as a forward-thinking event that caters to advanced authors seeking to sustain and grow their careers.

• Benefits for Advanced Authors: JD states, “Author Nation as something basically the next version of conferences... to fill in that void in between and teach us how to keep our careers going for long term.” [53:11]

• Networking and Content: The conference offers valuable networking opportunities and relevant content that caters to authors beyond the debut stage, addressing the needs of those established in the industry.

---

9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Joanna and JD wrap up the episode by emphasizing the importance of leveraging individual strengths, continual learning, and adaptive strategies to sustain a successful writing career. They encourage authors to embrace both creative fulfillment and strategic business practices to cast a wider net and achieve long-term success.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ray Bonnell on Success:
  “Having many readers is nice, but readers come and go... from my point of view, personal fulfillment is more important than material success.” [02:15]

• Kendra Vaughan on Storytelling:
  “There's magic in the way stories connect us, heal us, and reveal pieces of ourselves we didn't know were missing.” [03:10]

• Lucy Munro on Reader Impact:
  “When I hear from a reader who got through a difficult time because of one of my books... that is success for me.” [04:02]

• JD Barker on Indie Publishing:
  “I indie published my first novel and got a taste of what that was like... I wanted to see how that would play out.” [16:37]

• JD Barker on Co-Authoring:
  “When I seek out co authors, I'm trying to find people that can add something to my mix that I may not be able to do on my own.” [38:35]

• Joanna on Brand Building:
  “From a brand standpoint, anytime you can get your name out there, it's good.” [42:57]

---

Key Takeaways

• Redefine Success: Authors should prioritize personal fulfillment and creative growth alongside financial goals to maintain long-term satisfaction and resilience.

• Strategic Publishing: Balancing indie and traditional publishing methods can offer the best of both worlds—control and broad distribution.

• Collaborative Writing: Partnering with co-authors who bring unique expertise can enhance the quality and marketability of books.

• Marketing & Branding: Consistent branding and strategic marketing are essential for expanding an author's reach and sustaining a successful career.

• Continuous Learning: Engaging with advanced author conferences like Author Nation provides valuable insights and networking opportunities for career growth.

---

For more insights and resources, listeners can visit The Creative Penn and explore additional episodes, author blueprints, and free materials offered by Joanna Penn.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 812 of the podcast and it is Friday 6th June 2025. As I record this in today's show, I talk to JD Barker about casting a wider net in terms of writing, craft, author brand and author business. So you might know JD from the Writers Inc. Podcast and I always enjoy talking to him. I think partly because he is so open about being autistic and is so frank and what he's doing, he tells it how it is and his ability to try things and fail and move on and try other things and win big is always inspiring. And the things he does are mostly outside my comfort zone. So always make me think and I hope you find it thought provoking. That is coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things on the Self Publishing Advice blog, How authors measure Income, Fulfilment and the Joy of Storytelling. So I really think that deciding on your definition of success is so important, as the most disappointed authors are often those who thought they wanted one thing and then later realised that wasn't what they wanted. So the article first tackles personal fulfilment and growth and this I think, is the most important one. Your book may never reach the great heights of external success, but writing a book is a wonderful way to learn more about yourself and learn new skills, meet more people. And I thought my first book would change everybody's life. That was the book that started out as how to enjoy your job or find a new one. I later rewrote it as career change, but I really thought it was going to hit the big time and everyone would be like, wow, now we can do everything we love. And of course it didn't do that, but it did change my life and that was pretty amazing. So that personal fulfillment goal actually turned out to be more important than the sort of making money from it. One author, Ray Bonnell, says having many readers is nice, but readers come and go. Getting lots of money from sales is nice, but prosperity can be temporary. Whether I'm leaving a meaningful legacy is not for me to decide. What happens to my books after I die is beyond my knowledge. Chance can have as much to do with commercial success as hard work and chasing after the material signs of success can be. As the writer of Ecclesiastes would say, like chasing after the wind. It is nice to have people like my books and be able to make a little money, but from my point of view, personal fulfilment is more important than material success. I love that, Ray, and I just think that's a wonderful attitude. And Ecclesiastes happens to be probably my favourite book of the Bible and I have on my wall here and not an exact quote, but this too shall pass. And that's basically what Ecclesiastes is about if you have read it or want to read it still in the article, Kendra Vaughan says, I love the freedom to write on my own schedule, to dive deeper into my craft and to keep learning with every project. There's magic in that, real magic in the way stories connect us, heal us and reveal pieces of ourselves we didn't know were missing. Absolutely. I also freedom is definitely my number one word as well. But of course, some authors define success by income and making at least some money from their books, others by connection and impact from on with their community. Lucy Munro says, when I hear from a reader who got through a difficult time because of one of my books or someone who stayed up all night reading, that is success for me. I know I touched those hearts and I definitely agree with this. My certainly my book pilgrimage and also writing the Shadow, both of those I get emails like that about and they mean a lot to me and they're certainly not my biggest sellers, but they are certainly some of the most personal books. So thinking about this is a good chance to reflect. And of course our definition of success changes over time. When I was miserable in my day job almost 20 years ago now, the goal was to leave my job and make a living with my writing, which I do. And I still have that goal, like.

[JD Barker]

To keep making a living with my.

[Joanna Penn]

Writing, but also mainly to write the books I want to write when I want to write them. And creative freedom and to a point, financial freedom are still my guiding principles. And I will really only write the books that I really feel sort of intuitively that I need to write. So my question for you today what is your definition of success for the book you're writing and for your wider author career? And also over on the Go Creative podcast, my friend Orna Ross has an episode on From Undertow to Creating Through Grief where she talks about the death of her mother and how to keep a spirit of creativity through difficult times. She also reads a poem that she wrote over the days of her mum's passing. And it's worth listening to the podcast even just to hear Orna read that poem. And it made me appreciate the power anew of fewer words because obviously the death of a parent and all the complication, the complicated relationships that we all have with parents, there's so much you could say there's millions and millions and millions of words. And as prose writers, we're so used to writing a lot of words. So listening to Orna read a few hundred words that contain such power to move and to encapsulate feeling, it made me want to revisit poetry in some way. Now, back in the day when I was, I am actually a published poet in a traditional anthology, back when I was 19, I think, so very different time in my life, the Oxford anthologies as it was back then. And I wrote a lot of poetry in my teen years. I also wrote quite a lot when I got divorced. And I guess to me writing poetry is a lot about misery. But I think those of you who are poets know that it can be so much more than that. But it is interesting, I guess maybe also turning 50 and really thinking about different areas of writing craft and wanting to be a better writer, like always wanting to learn more about going deeper into our writing. So I, I may even revisit poetry in some way. I certainly like short stories, but again, still thousands of words. So back to Orna's podcast. If you're going through grief of any kind and need some perspective or some help navigating that time, because Orna has some really useful ways of writing as part of that grief, have a listen to orna on the Go Creative podcast, that's ornarross.com podcast or find Go Creative podcast wherever you're listening to this. And then in personal news, Book Wise, Death Valley and successful self publishing, the 4th edition are out everywhere this week and also on YouTube and 11 reader as well as the usual platforms, you can find them at thecreativepenn.com SSP4 and jfpenn.com Death Valley. There's all the links to the various platforms. I've also done a massive batch of books and travel interviews which feed that different side of me.

[JD Barker]

And in fact, this is why I'm.

[Joanna Penn]

Probably thinking about poetry. Doing that other show helped me write that travel memoir, Pilgrimage, and opened me up in a different way. And I talked to a lot of people who'd walked the Camino before I did it. And now I feel like I'm definitely using books and travel again to help me work into the other challenging books, the personally challenging books that are on their way. So one is the Gothic Cathedral project. I have an interview coming up on that and I wanted to say if you are a stonemason or know one, or have knowledge of cathedrals or Gothic architecture or related topics or know someone around that. I'm also really interested in the music that is, you know, Gregorian chanting and that kind of thing. Sacred music is a topic I'm interested in. If you know people around the books and travel side, or if that resonates with something you've written, email me. My email for that show is jookooksandtravel page and I also have a landing page for my photos for the Gothic Cathedrals booksandtravel page. Gothic Cathedrals I'm also this coming week I'm very excited.

[JD Barker]

I'm having a day off.

[Joanna Penn]

I've had a real push. I think I mentioned that last week, but I'm having a day off and I am going on a cathedral visit. This is one of the things I love to do. I've also started writing a little around this memoir around home and about Somerset, the county where I live here in England. And that will definitely be a way off. That is a couple of years in the writing, that one memoir being one of the most challenging forms. Maybe there'll even be some poems in there, you never know. And it was interesting. Somebody said, oh, but you can use AI to do this faster. I'm like, no, that is not why I use AI tools and I embrace them in many ways, as you know. But I have never ever, ever been interested in rap release and I certainly am not now. I don't rapid release, I don't write fast. I'm far more interested in getting the tools to help me go deeper, to think differently, to surface more interesting research and to help me create better books and more beautiful products. So yes, this is the AI assisted artisan author approach. And this week I've also been working hard on my materials for and my slides, my slide deck. So I have two hours to encapsulate so much. By the time this goes out I will have done the first one, but there are still some tickets left for the second one which is Saturday 21st June at 11am US Eastern 4pm UK. And if you register you will also get the replay all the slides, my prompt library and all of that so [e-mail] live L I V E so thanks for all your emails and comments and photos. This week, Ashley Rescott on YouTube said, this was an incredible interview. This is with Jennifer on music. Last week I did a double take when I saw who Jo was featuring as this week's guest. My two worlds came together. Jo and Jennifer are both incredible artists in their own mediums and hearing their conversation was inspirational.

[JD Barker]

Bravo.

[Joanna Penn]

Thank you Ashley. And it's so funny because of course I don't know Jennifer, I don't know the music area and sometimes I interview people who massive deals in their own world. So that was lovely your comment. Thank you. And J.J. ranson, author on YouTube said, what a unique take on writing craft. Jennifer said something about being ready to write her book and that made me think that life had to get her ready to tell the story. That's exactly right jj. And that's what I mean about my home memoir. Probably taking years to write because it will emerge when it's ready basically. Thanks for a great podcast. I'm learning so much and can't wait to be in your AI class. Great. Thanks for coming. And a photo from Heather the British cemetery and Commonwealth War Graves at the Outer Banks of North Carolina I've been to many times but never went to these cemeteries. I probably never even noticed them. Interestingly enough, two of them were British. Another is in the small Salvo community near to right, literally right on the beach and sent some great photos there. Yeah, isn't it interesting when you when several people have said this to me that since I've been talking about visiting cemeteries and this kind of thing, that they've actually noticed things they never even noticed before. So that is a good thing. Okay, Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes atthecreative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. You can email me, send me pictures of where you're listening, or graveyards and cemeteries or Gothic cathedrals. Joannathecreativepen.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation. So today's episode is sponsored by prowritingaid because however you choose to publish, whether you go indie or you want a traditional deal, you need to make your book the best it can be. ProWritingAid is one of my absolute must use tools in my writing process for both fiction and non fiction as well as short stories. Once I finish the first draft, I use prowritingaid to fix any issues before printing and hand editing. Then I use it again after I put the edits into Scrivener since I always make more mistakes. So I do at least two passes with prowritingaid before sending to Kristen my editor. You can use it with Scrivener but also loads of other software or just online in your browser. ProWritingAid knows all the rules of editing and helps you apply them. And of course you can choose not to make the changes as you like. It helps with making your writing more active, finding repeated words finding words and sentences you could improve adding sensory detail, sentence structure, grammar and punctuation issues, as well as typos, spacing problems, and more. It also now has a manuscript analysis developmental editing tool and a beta reader report so you can get analysis of your whole manuscript. I've tried both of these and they are super useful. So why use software to help? Why don't you just learn all the grammar and writing rules and apply them yourself? Well, we all use tools to improve our process and we're often blind to our writing issues. It helps to have another pair of eyes, even if the eyes are software. Well, won't an editor do all this? Well, yes they can, but I'd rather pay my editor to fix the things the software can't. So I use prowritingaid as my essential editing tool before sending to my human editor. Check out the free edition or get 15% off the premium edition by using my link prowritingaids.com Joanna J-O-A-N N A that's prowritingaid.com Joanna so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] TheCreativePen thanks to the six new patrons who've joined in the last week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering writing, craft, author business tutorials and demos on AI tools and live office hours I did last week. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join [e-mail] thecreativepenn Right, let's get into the interview.

[JD Barker]

JD Barker is the New York Times and internationally best selling author of thrillers and horror and he co writes with James Patterson as well as other authors. He's also the co host of the Writers Inc. Podcast.

[Joanna Penn]

So welcome back to the show JD.

[Guest Speaker]

Hey Joanna, it's great to be back. I was looking at the timeline so like this was pre Covid I think the last time we talked.

[JD Barker]

Right, Yeah, I know, it's crazy. I also had a Look, it was 2020, which, yeah, it does seem like another life. And so, but back then we did talk about your background, so we're just going to jump straight into it today. So the last five years, JD how, how has it been? Like, give us an overview. Well, not of the last five years, but what does your business look like now? I almost feel like five years ago you were almost relatively new on the indie author scene as such, but now you've really cemented your position.

[Guest Speaker]

I was. So let me think, like five years ago. So that was about the same time that I called my agent and said, I don't want you selling my English rights anymore. I'm going to do it myself.

[JD Barker]

Yeah, basically.

[Guest Speaker]

The publishing professionals, I think they hate me because I tend to pull the rug out from under them quite a bit. But honestly, like I indie published my first novel and I got a taste of what that was like and I think that, you know, for better or worse, that was a deal breaker for me. Like, it's something that's always been in the back of my head and I weigh it against every contract. And at one point I had a book coming out called A Caller's Game and I called my agent and like I just decided I'm going to indie publish it in English and I'd let her go ahead and sell all the foreign territories like she usually does. And I wanted to see how that would play out. And honestly I liked it a lot because it gave me the freedom and control that I had as an indie to get that title out there. I got the economics benefits of being an indie. So I did that for a couple of different books. But I still ran into one particular problem. And you know me well enough, like I, I completely gloss over all the good stuff and I just focus on the one or two things that aren't working right. And like that's where I, I tend to try and come up with some kind of solution. I couldn't get into like the big box stores. I was still having trouble getting into airports. I couldn't get into Target or Costco or Walmart. So that's something that weighed on me for a couple of years. And I guess about a year and a half ago I sent my, my agent a copy of Behind a Closed Door, which was my latest thriller. We sold foreign rights on that almost im and the book was going to auction with the traditional publishers or we didn't sell not foreign rights, film Rights. And I got a phone call from a friend of mine that worked at HarperCollins. And she said that we're about to offer on this book and when that comes in, you need to turn it down. And I got a similar phone call from somebody over at Random House, and I asked why? And she said, well, the editor who wants your book is about to get laid off or about to cut a lot of people. And then like a week or two later, all those industry cuts that we all saw happened. And I don't know if you've ever been in a position where you've had a book at a traditional publisher where you lost your editor, but like, that book can sit there in limbo forever depending on your contract. And without somebody to champion it, it may not come out at all. So that really scared me. So I kind of reached back to my corporate days. You know, my last real job I had, I worked in finance and I got ahold of some of the people that were involved in the purchase of Simon and Schuster at the private equity firm, started some conversations, and ultimately I created my own imprint at Simon and Schuster, which is what I'm doing today. So I basically, I get the freedom of being an indie author. I can put out what I want when I want to, but I've got Simon and Schuster as my backbone, so they handle my print sales and distribution. So that's what I'm doing today.

[Joanna Penn]

So you what, you still upload the.

[JD Barker]

Ebook yourself to kdp, but then you give the the print to Simon Schuster or does everything go through them?

[Guest Speaker]

No. So the way I signed the contract, I've got my own llc. Well, it's an S corp, I guess at this point, but it's called Barker Creative. So the contract is actually between Simon and Schuster and Barker Creative. So what that means is when I have a book, I can pick and choose whether J.D. barker is publishing it or Barker Creative is publishing it. And if it's a Barker Creative book, it has to go to Simon and Schuster. If it's a J.D. barker book, I can put it out on my own. So legally, I basically created the wiggle room that I needed. So I can take that book and I can say I'm going to put out ebook on my own, I'm going to do audiobook through somebody else. I can farm out those pieces. So that's kind of what I've been doing. So I signed a contract with Recorded Books. They handle all of my audiobook. I just keep ebooks for myself because there's really there's no point in handing that off to anybody. It's so easy to do. And then I've been doing print through Simon and Schuster.

[JD Barker]

So how do you make the decision? You said your biggest problem there was the big box stores, airports, which is why you wanted to do a kind of print deal, press. But how do you make a decision as to what you then keep as a J.D. barker book versus a Barker creative book? And, you know, for people listening, where is the line between.

[Joanna Penn]

Because a lot of people, let's face.

[JD Barker]

It, won't get the contract offers you do, but they do get offers. So I know people who get offers maybe for a couple of thousand advance. Some are no advance, but royalties, plus maybe some marketing and like a lot of authors listening, do get the chance for some kind of deal. Also, audio deals are coming up a lot.

[Joanna Penn]

How do people weigh up what is.

[JD Barker]

Worth signing and licensing and what is worth doing?

[Guest Speaker]

Indy I basically look at the book when it's finished and I decide, like, what is gonna cast the widest net? What is gonna cause this to get out in front of the largest group of people and possibly bring in more people into my reading audience. And that's kind of my goal at this point. A couple years ago I was told that my audience was women 45 and over. So I wrote a young adult book and started roping them in a little bit younger. And I continue to do that. One of the books I've got coming out, do you remember a movie from the 90s called Flatliner?

[JD Barker]

Yes, you told me about this, but tell everyone else.

[Guest Speaker]

So Flatliners is one of my all time favorite movies. It came out in 1990 and it's got this crazy cast. It had Kiefer Sutherland, Julia Roberts, Kevin Bacon, Billy Baldwin and Oliver Platt. And all of them kind of at the start of their career. So people knew their names, but, you know, well before they became the household names that they are today. It's about a group of medical students who kill each other one at a time and then bring each other back to try and discover if there's any type of afterlife. I love that movie. I honestly still think it holds up today. And it's been a favorite of mine. A few years ago, the guy who wrote it, his name is Peter Fi, he got attached to one of my other projects. I wrote a prequel to Dracula for Bram Stoker's Family. So he got attached as the screenwriter on that with Paramount and we got to talking about Flatliners and I told him, listen, I've got an idea to reboot this franchise. And at the time he didn't have control of the rights. The studio still had those. So I just, I kind of planted the seed. A couple years went by and then I got a phone call back from him, I guess about a year and a half ago, and he said, listen, I just got the rights back, if you still want to do something. So ultimately we ended up writing a novel, which I'm literally finishing the final edits on today, to reboot this franchise. So it's going to come out as a book first with film later. So we have this project basically done. So going back to your original question, how do I decide who is going to get what particular book? So I could take this book, I could indie publish it, I could put it out on Simon and Schuster if I want to do that. But with a book that's got like a high profile like this, I know the best possible place for this to go is one of the other traditional publishers, somebody who's willing to put a lot of marketing dollars behind it. So somebody who's going to do something that I can't do on my own. So we're going to let this book go out to auction. The film rights look like they're going to happen again very quickly. So my agent's going to hold up the book, we're going to see who bids the highest on it, and it's going to go that route again. This is mainly so I can get it in places that I can't on my own.

[JD Barker]

Yeah, and I love that story. And I, I, I think that would be very cool. I'm very interested in, in seeing that again. I remember that from the 90s. But the bigger thing here, when I was listening to you there. So there was this dude and you met him years ago and you connected and then there was Bram Stoker's family that you connected with and this guy in finance. And I remember from when you talked about your history, you were in the music industry and used to drive people, like really famous people around. And this is one of the things about you, it seems you have absolutely no fear in talking to anyone, however famous. And you're also just like a lot of your sort of bigger deals come from your connections. So is that part of your personality or is that just something you fostered over time? And I guess for people listening, how can we be more like that?

[Guest Speaker]

Well, it's tricky because as writers we're all introverted. I'm autistic, which kind of adds another whole level to this Mess. I hate talking to other people, just like most authors do. Like, I go to a conference, I want to sit in the corner and hide. It's gotten to the point where, like, if I go, I usually don't take my wife with me because I would just hang out and talk to my wife the whole time. So I try to force myself out of that comfort zone. But at the same time, like, I've got a degree in business, I've spent a lot of time working in marketing. Everything in this world, it doesn't matter if you're selling books or you're selling glasses or you're selling cars. It's all about who you know and cultivating those contacts. So every time I meet somebody, you know their name, what they do, who they are, all that goes into my mental Rolodex. And at some point I may call back on it. You never know when these kind of things are going to play out. You know, when I talk about this, like in front of writers groups, like one year I was at Thriller Fest and I was in the elevator with Lee Child. So I basically, you know, I got lee child standing five feet away from me. I've got 15 seconds. I can either talk to him and possibly start up a conversation, maybe get a blurb from one of my books, or I can stand there and stare at the numbers like everybody else does. And in my head I'm thinking, well, what harm can come from making that ask? So I will always ask the question. I am a lot more afraid of, of the outcome of not asking the question than I am of hearing no. So I will always ask.

[JD Barker]

Yeah, but it's. It's something I struggle with, and I know a lot of listeners struggle with as well, is that moment. So as you say, if you've only got a few minutes, can you push yourself past the uncomfort zone as such to try to at least try. Do you think being autistic gives you more, More, I don't know, ability to take what others might feel as embarrassment or shame? I mean, is that something that you would ever feel like? I would feel embarrassed and just. And then if he snubbed me, I would feel ashamed.

[Guest Speaker]

I think that's a big part of it. I don't feel a lot of those emotions the same way, you know, quote unquote, normal person would I. I'm just not afraid of it. But at the same time, like somebody like Lee, Stephen King, all these different guys, like, they've all stood in that same position that we are at the beginning of our career. Like, everybody started somewhere and they've all been there fairly recently, and they still have memories of that. So I think when you do ask that question, as long as you can come up with a unique way to do it, stand out a little bit, I don't think there's any harm in doing it. And I've got plenty of people that come up to me and ask similar questions now, and I pull from that same knowledge base. Like, I was doing this a couple of years ago, they're doing it to me now. But I think in a lot of ways, this. This entire author profession, we pay it forward as much as we can, and everybody does.

[JD Barker]

Yeah. And a lot of them are just. Well, most people are nice in general. I think that would be my thing. And certainly going to Thriller Fest. When I first went in, like 2012, I was just starstruck by these authors who I'd been reading for years, and I remember meeting Doug Preston and like Clive Cussler, and I was just a wreck, you know, And I think, okay, well, here's the other thing. The indie thing, back then in 2012, it was very early in the indie world, so I felt definitely kind of second class. Have you ever felt that or had you think things have changed? You network with lots of traditionally published people. Do you think that kind of in inverted commas, the stigma that some traditionally published authors used to kind of tar us with, is that gone or do you come up against that anytime?

[Guest Speaker]

I don't know if it's gone. So when I published Forsaken, my first book, it was 2014, so we were still very much in the thick of it because I had worked in the publishing industry for so long. I worked as a book doctor and a ghostwriter for 20 some years. I knew a lot of people in the industry. And when I wasn't able to get an agent on Forsaken, I seriously considered indie publishing. And I started talking to a lot of authors that I knew that were regularly on, like, the New York Times list. And I would run it by them. You know, the whole indie versus traditional thing. Every single one of them pushed back and said, you don't want to go indie. If you do that, you're going to be stuck in that world forever. You're never going to get a traditional deal. Like, they completely tried to talk me out of it. And I'm honestly glad that it didn't happen, that that didn't work. But, you know, you fast forward a little bit and, like, I was just on the board for itw. So I was working with all those names that you just mentioned and many other ones. I can't tell you how many phone calls I've gotten over the last four or five years from big name authors who got their rights back on this title or that title, something in their back catalog and they're like, I really think I should try to indie publish this, but I'm not sure how to do it. Can you help me? You know, like they are all looking at that because what ends up happening is that title comes back, their agent gets it, their agent resells it again, typically for a lesser amount than they got the previous time. So it's a dwindling asset and it gets locked up for another five to seven years or so. And then they rinse and repeat and they're seeing that they're just, they're not making the kind of money that they used to. Every one of those deals is getting smaller. In some cases those books aren't reselling at all. So they're ending up with all this back catalog. Other authors, they haven't resold their back catalog at all. So those things, you know, books went out print 15, 20 years ago and they are sitting on those Word documents on their computer, not sure what to do with them. But today, 2025, they are all looking at indie publishing in one way or another.

[JD Barker]

Well, especially if some of the publishers, like you said, Simon Schuster, and there's quite a few people, I guess who are getting these sort of print only deals and having their own imprints and. But it's interesting. What the last time I was at Thriller Fest, I think it was 2017 was the last time I was there. And I remember then people were also asking me about this and one guy said, said I used to get advances that were seven figures and now the advances are maybe six figures. And these are big name people. So that, that almost feels to me why they're interested is. It's almost it. The only reason is because all the money is, has been, you know, the long tail is where we live now.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, they, they all see it and they all feel it. Regardless of the number of zeros in the dollar amount. It's all relative. They see that that industry is drying up. And like, what kills me is like I don't see a lot of the traditional publishers making any changes. You know, they're still following like the last book that I had traditionally published, they sent me the marketing plan. It had a substantial advance to it. So there was a marketing team behind it. And the PDF document they sent me was literally the same marketing plan I saw from the same company five years earlier for a different book. They just swapped out the COVID images and a couple keywords here or there, but everything else was the same. And it was this 30,000 foot view that really told me nothing as far as what they were doing. And like, if you look at, you know, step into a bookstore and look at like the best selling names that are there, the names that are out in front on the end caps and the very first table and stuff like that, all these people are getting older. The biggest name authors out there are all in their 70s at this point, they're aging out and the big publishers haven't come up with a way to replenish that stock like the, in the old days. And when I say old days, you know, 15 years ago, they would spend a lot of money cultivating a new new author. They would find somebody who had a solid voice that knew how to write and they would sign them to a five or six book deal. And as long as each book sold better than the previous one, they would continue to re up that and they would keep it going knowing that they could turn that person into one of those big name authors one day. In today's world that's not happening anymore. They're signing people for one book deals, two book deals, and if they don't see the kind of numbers that they need to see at the end of that contract, they let you go and then you end up leaving one of the top five and you go with a smaller press or you indie publish or whatever. But a lot of people don't know how to recover from that and a lot of them are just dropping out of the industry altogether.

[JD Barker]

Yes, funny you should say that. I saw a blog post from an author again, you know, not mentioning any names, but it basically said I've seen the income go down and I've just decided it's not worth it anymore. And this was another reasonably big name. And I was like, wow, it's very interesting if that's the way it goes. I almost feel like for a lot of indies like myself, for example, I've never had like a truly breakout book. I've just, just built up. And when you build up from a low number per month to a bigger number per month, you feel, I don't know, perhaps fine compared to somebody who might have started on a massive deal for book one and then has just spiraled downwards. You know what I mean? That feels like the difference in energy between the Indies who are kind of clawing up and then the big name trad authors who are kind of now spiraling down.

[Guest Speaker]

Well, I think it's almost like a tortoise and hare thing, you know, like if, if you come out of the gate and you have this enormous big cel going to be chasing that forever and every book you write is going to be compared to that. And I would honestly rather be in, in your shoes like a situation like you just said, kind of like gently increase your, your revenue and your business model. Everything just kind of raised just a little bit year after year after year. I think that's better because then it's a, a gradual thing. As long as each book that you're putting out is, is selling better than the last one, you know, everything is constantly improving in a nice and slow and steady way. It's almost like the stock market, like you're building a nice solid base beneath you. If something goes wrong, it's not going to just fall out. If you take somebody who has a big seller all of a sudden they have these giant numbers that they have to try and hit every single time. And even if they have another big seller, if it doesn't hit those original numbers, it's seen as a failure. That's, that's a tough position to be in. I mean, I hate picking on people. But like, look at like Gillian Flynn. Like she, she had a three book deal, so her first two books did okay, but they didn't really sell that great. And then all of a sudden Gone Girl. Imagine having to follow up Gone Girl. Like she has been at home writing the follow up to Gone Girl for years and hasn't put anything out.

[JD Barker]

Like, but she wrote the screenplay, she moved into screenwriting.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, she's moved on to other things and it's fantastic that she's actually got her hands in multiple pots. I think that's key too. And you talk about diversification all the time. I, that's something from this industry and I think life in general, I think a lot of people should take away. Hmm.

[JD Barker]

Yeah. I do want to just point out there you said about the stock market and up and to the right slowly. I mean, you have to zoom out. I think that would be what I would say. Definitely. Nobody has. Every book sells better than the last. I mean, there's always books that come out that just creative and are not necessarily ones that hit the market. So. But if you zoom out, I think that's the point with the stock market too. As an investor, if you zoom out far Enough. It does go up and to the right.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. You've got to look at the big picture and as long as it's improving time.

[JD Barker]

Exactly, exactly. So I want to come back. You mentioned the, the big names all in their 70s, of course, one of the biggest names in the world, James Patterson. You co write with James Patterson and then since you've been doing that, you've also moved into his model of co writing with other people. So you're the second name under James Patterson, but you're the first name when you're co writing with others. So tell us about that, why you decided to do it. Because frankly, I have heard from, from some authors who've done this that they didn't end up getting the sort of sales that they thought they would get. So what has been your experience?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, so I mean working with Patterson has been huge. I mean, I tell people it's almost like taking his masterclass online, except he calls you and tells you everything you're doing wrong and gives you some advice. And like I've gotten, we've had just as many phone calls on the business side of publishing as we have on writing side. And he's been helping me kind of create Patterson 2.0 with my own career. And I think in a lot of ways it's because he's older, like he, he would probably do these things himself if he was in his 50s. But I think he's in a comfortable place right now. He doesn't see any reason to rock the boat, but he's, he's getting some enjoyment out of helping me kind of create a business model in today's world based on what he's learned. And from my standpoint, there's no way I'm going to turn down that advice. So he was largely responsible for like me moving to Simon and Schuster the way that I did, the way the co author titles are coming out, the people that I'm choosing, the countries that these books are dropping in. He's been involved in a lot of those decisions, at least as an ear, you know, a sounding board that I can run some of these things by. Hear you like, I know other people that have tried to do this before and I've seen it not work. I've seen it work in my model. It seems to be working okay. I mean, people are buying my solo titles in a lot bigger numbers than they do the co authored stuff. That being said, I'm pricing the co authored stuff at a lower, lower price point. I'm getting it into places that my Bigger titles may or may not get to. I'm using it just like I do everything else. I'm using it to cast a wider net. I'm trying to rope in people that may not be able to afford a $10 ebook because now they can buy a barker book for $5.

[JD Barker]

Yeah, I like the idea of casting a wider net. I think this is also something you do. You have deliberately not written the same thing over and over again. I mean, you do have a series, but it's not a massive series like a, like it's not a 25 book series like some people. Like James Patterson has huge long series. So tell us about how you're writing different kinds of books under this sort of casting a wider net.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, I made a conscious decision at the get go that I didn't want to write the same book, but different over and over again because I, being in the publishing industry, I had seen people get caught up in that. Before you know it, they're 10 books in and they just, they're, they're dreading the writing process. Process because they just don't want to have to do that same thing again. So I came out of the gate. My very first novel was horror. The next one was a thriller. Then I did another horror novel. So I bounced back and forth on purpose, which frustrated the hell out of my agents and the publishers because they weren't quite sure how to market all that. But what I've been finding is it's allowing me to build brand. Like people are basically seeing my name as the brand and knowing that they're going to get a particular type of book, not necessarily the same book, but they're going to get the same feeling, the same kind of pacing and those types of, of things. So when I go look for co authors, I'm trying to find people that can add a little something to my mix that I may not be able to do on my own. To give you an example, I had a book out a couple, I guess about a year ago now called Heavier the Stones that I wrote with Christine Daigle. And I think you know Christine, but in real life she's a neuropsychologist. So I can fake my way through that. You know, in a book I can do enough Google searches and watch documentaries just like any other author. And I can come up with something that seems realistic and plausible. But having a real neuropsychologist in the writing room is priceless. It allows us to take that to a whole other level. So when I seek out co authors, I'M really looking for that. I'm trying to find people that can bring something to the table that I can't necessarily do on my own. But at the same time, I take that book and I make sure the pacing matches my pacing, make sure the language and everything is on par. The story is as compelling as any of my other titles. So I kind of take something that they're working on and take it to another level and dial it up a little bit so my audience will react to it. I think by combining all those different things, it seems to be working well.

[JD Barker]

I can. I can hear people in the audience who are like, oh, well, maybe I could pitch. JD so do you take pitches and who are you looking for?

[Guest Speaker]

I do all the time. Where I honestly came from is I used to mentor a lot of authors. It was the whole pay it forward thing. I feel like helping other people really helps me recharge my batteries. I love finding an author that was doing like 80% of the things right, but I spot like 20% that could be fixed. And I like to help them get through that. But at the time, I was charging people for that. And I always felt icky about having to charge people for mentorship. But it was a good gatekeeper because it got rid of the people who weren't really serious about it. But ultimately what I ended up doing is I flipped that when I started bringing in co authors. So I find somebody who again, has about 80% of the skill set that I think they need, that needs a little help. One part or another. I bring them in and I walk them through the entire writing process. So we come up with the idea for the book, the title, the tagline, the backup book blurb. I hold their hand through the outlining process, I hold their hand through the writing process, but I make them do the bulk of the work because I want them to walk away from this better writer. And then in the end, I own the book. Because from an accounting standpoint, it's near impossible to do co authored stuff on a royalty split. But it seems to work really well for everybody. So I'm constantly looking for co authors. I have people that send me stuff all the time. If somebody in your audience is into that and they want to reach out, they can find me on my website. Website.

[JD Barker]

But to be clear, that's not brand new authors. You're looking for people who have written books so they actually know what they're doing. We're not talking about newbies.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, I mean, I get plenty of stuff from newbies.

[JD Barker]

Too.

[Guest Speaker]

And I'm waiting to find that gold in there. But the truth is, this is just like any other profession. If you want to be a brain surgeon, they're not going to just throw you at the operating table. There's years worth of study and practice and things that go. Go into play. Writing is no different. To me, it's like a muscle. You have to work it out every day. Most people have to write maybe a half million words before they really figure out what they're doing, doing. So most of the people that find me that I end up signing, they've got one or two books they've written. Maybe they were with a small press, maybe they were with one of the big publishers, but it didn't work out. A lot of times, that's a discoverability issue. You could have the greatest title in the world and Random House could put it out for you. But if the marketing plan doesn't hit just right, that book will fizzle and die. But that doesn't mean the writer doesn't know what they're doing. So those are the kind of people that I'm looking for. I'm trying to find those hidden gems.

[JD Barker]

Well, let's talk about marketing then. Because when I was. Of course, we've known each other years now, and I know stuff about you, but I was like, oh, I'm just going to like, Google JD to see what he's been doing recently. And this column came up in Rolling Stone, and I was like, what is. What is JD Doing vlogging on Rolling Stone magazine now? Then I was like, oh, right, you used to kind of work tangentially in the music industry. But why are you blogging for Rolling Stone Magazine? Magazine?

[Guest Speaker]

You know, it's one. I think it was just a callback to the. The early days, like back when I was working then in the music business, I would have loved to write for Rolling Stone. That was like the holy grail back then. And they approached me a couple of years ago and they said, hey, would you like to do a column for us? So it occasionally shows up in the print. Most of the time it's just online. But they let me write whatever I want. So I write two or three columns a month on whatever topic. You know, I feel like talking about which. Which is fun. I mean, it's. And it's. It's good exposure from a marketing standpoint. It gets my name out there on a regular basis, so it seems to work out well.

[JD Barker]

It's funny, though, because this seems to work out. I know you do ads and stuff. Like with an ad, you pay for an Amazon whatever and you get some clicks and you can tell that it's working. But with the Rolling Stone, I mean, maybe online they let you have a click through or something. But how do you know that it's worth it?

[Guest Speaker]

Well, it comes down to again, this being a business and branding. So your, your brand, your name needs to show up in front of people on a reg basis before they really recognize it. So somebody may see a Rolling Stone article written by me, they may not buy my book for years, they may not buy it at all. But if they see my name once, twice, four, five, six times, just popping up in random places, all of a sudden I'm a known commodity to them. So they walk into a Barnes and Noble one day and they're browsing the shelves and all of a sudden my name jumps out at them. They recognize it, they don't quite understand why, but it speaks to them a little bit. And they pick up that book, book. So I think from a brand standpoint, anytime you can get your name out there, it's good. Try to do it as often as possible. I mean, yeah, I do Facebook ads, I do Amazon ads, I do all those different things, but I also do tons of podcasts, I do tons of radio, I do tons of television. And any opportunity I have to get my name or voice out there and talk about the book process, I do it.

[JD Barker]

Yeah, I noticed that. And as I said to you, your team pitched me multiple times and I like, stop it already. Which was. But I've, I thought it was interesting because what they did also pitch me from different angles and kind of different companies. But I feel like what you've said there, that some of these, some of these things are branding and some of these things are sales. So the ads are direct sales, trying to link directly to sales. And then the branding is a sort of nebulous. I haven't got a clue how this is going to work, but maybe somehow it will if it's all together. So what, what sort of percentage of your time are you doing between those two things? Or have you outsourced all the ad stuff as well?

[Guest Speaker]

Now the ad stuff, I've got pretty much dialed in. I tried outsourcing it, but I found that the people that I talked to, like, they are more than willing to take my money. They will put the ads out there, but the click through rates that they were getting just weren't that great. So I've done the same things that you have and probably Everybody in your audience has studied up on Facebook ads and I just, I post my own and I just, I tweak them a little, little bit. I find I do a lot of a B testing, figure out what images are working. I play with the text a little bit, I'm constantly changing them and I'm finding that my click through ratios are rate is really low. Like I get like between around 5, 6 cents, sometimes 11 cents I think is my average that I'm paying per ad on Facebook. I like doing that. I think it's the autistic side of me too. Like I enjoy messing with something like that, coming up with a way to make it better. When I stumble into something that's working, I double down and I enjoy, enjoy that process.

[JD Barker]

So is your day like half writing, half marketing?

[Guest Speaker]

Pretty much. I mean I get up at, I start at 7 in the morning, I turn off the Internet first thing and I just knock out whatever words I'm working on. For my latest projects I do about 2 to 3,000 words. Then I turn the Internet on, that's usually about 10:30 or 11 and let my inbox fill up and just kind of deal with the business side of stuff. Afternoons I do interviews from around noon until 3 and then my quitting bell rings at 3 o' clock.

[JD Barker]

Oh, okay. Because you have a daughter, don't you?

[Guest Speaker]

I, I do it like one of the things that started happening very early on is when my book started to sell in, in foreign territories I would get interview requests at crazy hours, like 11 o' clock at night, 2 o' clock in the morning. Because you're, you're basically dealing with their, their schedule. And I took all of those and like I quickly started to burn out. I was like, there's no way I can sustain this. So in today's world I just kind of force everybody into that, that little box. 12 o' clock to 3 o' clock. I've worked with tons of publicists too. On the promo side. It's funny you said that they contacted you a lot of different times. Like I had one publicist that I had paid a huge amount to on a monthly basis, a retainer, and they hardly got anything. And the publicist that actually contacted you that I've been working with recently, like I pay her for per podcast that she gets. So if she gets me a podcast, she gets a certain percentage. If she gets me a newspaper review, she gets a certain dollar amount. But everything is off la carte and she's been hustling, you know, so I Try to find publicists that are willing to work on. On those terms rather than just a flat dollar amount where there's no guaranteed results.

[JD Barker]

Yeah, I think those people are quite rare.

[Guest Speaker]

They are. But if you keep looking, you. You will find them.

[JD Barker]

Yeah. Well, it's also really interesting because I've been podcasting since 2009, and for many, many years, a lot of people used to talk about the traditional media stuff, and then they book blog tours was a thing for a while, and then a lot of social media. And then what's happened, really, the last 18 months, I would say, is that I get pitched, like, a lot every day from a lot of traditional publishers. So all the big houses pitching, and all they do is just send a press release directly to my email and say, you know, opportunity to interview JD Barker, and then just the blurb from your book.

[Joanna Penn]

And I'm just like, will these people stop it already?

[JD Barker]

Because this isn't a pitch now. This isn't a pitch. So for people listening, like. And I know you have done some of these yourself, although you work with people like, what. What are you trying to do when you pitch? Whatever. Podcast media, newspaper, whatever, what are you trying to do? That's more than just, here's my book sales description.

[Guest Speaker]

Well, we get them on Writers Inc. Too, so I totally get it. What kills me is when you get the ones that have absolutely nothing to do with the type of show that you do.

[JD Barker]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Here's a credit card company.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. Or this guy is a business entrepreneur and he can tell you all about real estate. And, like, that's not what our audience is looking for. Again, like, I scattershot this stuff. So I've done podcasts and interviews on autism. I've done it on the business of writing. I've done it on my latest book that's coming out. I do all of them because it's one of those things, like, I'm honestly not sure what's working and what's not working, but I do know that that brand and name recognition is important, so the more places I get, the better. And it's funny, like, where I get feedback from, you know, Like, I hear from a lot of parents that heard about me on an autism interview that have then went out and bought one of my books. So, like, it all kind of crosses over. But I think if you talk to anybody who works in advertising, for the most part, they can't tell you what's working and what's not working. So they tend to do everything, which is sort of Old school in today's world. I mean, you've got Facebook and Amazon ads. You can monitor metrics, and you can kind of track it that way. But that old only works for those types of ads. One of the things that's always stuck with me, you know, Patterson told me this story years ago when his very first book was called the Thomas Berryman Number. And, like, literally nobody bought that. I don't even think he's got a copy of it. His second book was Along Came a Spider. And the sales on that were decent at the beginning, but they weren't where he expected them to be or where he wanted them to be. So he spent $500 of his own money and created a television spot. And if you're old enough, you might remember this. It basically said it was just a graphic, and it said, your wait for the next Silence of the Lambs is over. And a tiny little spider crawled down from the corner of the screen, and then it morphed into Along Came a spider in the COVID of the book. So that was 500 bucks. But that's what actually launched that book and caused it to become a mega bestseller. And, like, he's. He's constantly doing that. Even in today's world, when we've got a book coming out, we just had one called the Writer, debuted at number two on the New York Times list. He approved every single ad to television spot, Facebook ad, Amazon ad, whatever. Like, every one of them crossed his desk, and he approved each one of them. And I tried to do the same thing.

[JD Barker]

Well, he came from marketing, didn't he? Advertising. He.

[Guest Speaker]

He did, yeah. He. He actually wrote the Toys R Us theme song.

[JD Barker]

I love this. And I also. I really respect him, obviously, as a writer, but also as a businessman. Like, he's just doing something with Mr.

[Joanna Penn]

Beast, right?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, he called me actually from, like, right after that meeting happened. And this was, geez, maybe about two months ago. And he sounded as excited as, like, a teenager. Yeah, it was crazy. And he's, like, tried to explain this to me, and, like, I honestly didn't know who beat Mr. Beast was afterwards. But. Yeah, but, like, that's the thing. Like, nobody expects him to do that book. Nobody expected him to write a book with Dolly Parton or Bill.

[JD Barker]

Yeah, Dolly Parton. After doing it with what, Bill Clinton?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. You know, but like, that. That's what keeps him going. And, you know, think of how that expanded his audience. Dolly Parton is huge on a worldwide basis. All of a sudden, they're reading James Patterson thrillers because he wrote that book.

[JD Barker]

And, and this is the thing, right? I mean everyone, even if people don't like in inverted commas, James Patterson's books. And I'm sure there's people listening who are like, oh, I'd never read a James Patterson. It doesn't matter because his, he is in his 70s, he still hustles wrestling, he's still writing, he's still doing author business. I mean, that is just, that's impressive. And that to me is very inspirational. And it's interesting because I, I've read bits and bobs of his over the years. You know, a book here, a book there. I don't read every one of his books. It's hard to read every one of his books because there's so many of them. But I recently read Eruption, which he, you know, with the late Michael Crichton estate.

[Joanna Penn]

And what was so funny was I.

[JD Barker]

Picked it up because I've read every single Michael Crichton and I imagine a lot of other people out there did the same thing. So this collaboration and co writing, which you're now doing as well, is, Is a really interesting model. Is it marketing or is it just a way of writing to a different market segment? I guess.

[Guest Speaker]

Well, I think ultimately he's using the books as marketing tools. Every one of them is a business card that's reaching out to a new segment of people. And that's what I'm trying to do too.

[JD Barker]

The difference, I guess. And I mean you're obviously you build your name bigger and bigger every year, so I'm sure you'll be in a position to co write with an ex American president at some point. But it's at the moment, obviously you're, I mean, I've co written a couple of books and I found it a very difficult process in the kind of thing you're doing. And what Jane Patterson's done is there's a very, there's a primary. Primary and there's a secondary. Right, there's like a primary name and a secondary. But what he seems to be doing is also finding other primary brands as such. So are you going to start looking for sort of the other brands to collaborate with rather than just authors who, who were kind of secondary, you know what I mean?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, no, I'm using every opportunity to expand my brand, you know, so if I can work with somebody who's going to take me into a different, you know, I'd love to work with a science fiction author at this point, because I could take a science fiction book and turn it into a thriller. And all of a sudden we're capturing people from, from both of those audiences. That's really what, what a lot of this is about. You know, just again, I keep going back to the casting a net thing, but that's what you've got to do, I think, in order to become one of those household names. It's not something that happens overnight. It's done gradually over time.

[JD Barker]

Yeah. And I like that perspective because I feel like in the indie community we're pretty obsessed with having direct roi. Like we have to see the ROI on the ad. And so a lot of indie authors don't do the bigger brand building because it's so hard to measure. So that's a really good perspective. I realize that we're almost out of time, but I did want to ask you about Author Nation because you and I were on the same thriller panel last year and you're back in 2025 along with James Patterson, who is keynoting now. You're very successful. So why cut come to Author Nation as a successful author who knows what he is doing? What are the benefits in a more advanced author coming to Author Nation?

[Guest Speaker]

Well, I rope Jim into coming, so I'll give you the same pitch that I gave him. So I, I have gone to all the, the big conferences. I've been to Thriller Fest a bunch of times. I've been to Bouchercon and my takeaway from a lot of those is like, I literally had no more takeaways. Like they were helpful for me for the first year or two when I was first getting started started. But after that there was really no new information that, that I could utilize anymore. They are very good at helping people get off that. That diving board with their debut novel. They are fantastic at promoting the big names that are out there, but they literally had no content for the rest of us are basically in that muddy middle trying to get from that debut novel to the. The household name status. So when I went to Author Nation, I saw something a little different. I saw people not only marketing indie titles, but like using a lot of the things that, that I feel the traditional markets could benefit from. And like those waters are getting very muddy at this point. I don't really think there is indie and traditional anymore. I think everybody is somewhere in the middle or should be somewhere in the middle and they're all stealing from each other. I think indie authors look at the traditional publishers and they take what's working. Traditional publishers are doing the exact same thing. They are looking very closely at the indie market and taking what is working there, which is why you see all these big name titles all of a sudden. I don't bookbub, you know, in these places that they didn't do a few years ago, they're utilizing whatever they see working on the indie market. So I see Author Nation as something basically the next version of conferences. I think, you know, target, properly done, they can create the content that the rest of us need to get from A to Z, you know, to fill in that void in between and teach us how to keep our career going for long term.

[JD Barker]

Yeah. I also feel that, like, as you say, I mean, there is a lot of content at Author Nation. If you're listening and you haven't written the first. First book or you have written a book and you're just starting, there's a lot for those people. But as you say, there's also a lot for us and a lot of meetings too. Right. We don't necessarily go to all the, all the sessions.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, it comes down to contacts, right? You know, like there's plenty of people you're going to meet at Author Nation, and four or five years down the road, you may be able to help them, they may be able to help you, but all those contacts come into play.

[JD Barker]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So we'll be there occasionally, hanging out in the public spaces. Although both of us struggle with a lot of people.

[Joanna Penn]

Right.

[JD Barker]

Well, I feel like maybe everybody does at these things. There's just a load of introverts and probably a lot of autistic people all in the same room being scared of each other.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. But there's also alcohol and I. I force myself to get out there and talk, you know, like, I won't stay in my hotel room as much as I want to. I try to get out of the floor, floor and talk to as many people as I can.

[JD Barker]

Yeah, I agree. All right, so where can people find you and your books online?

[Guest Speaker]

Easiest place to find me [e-mail] I'm on all the social medias. D. Barker. My latest title is called Something I Keep Upstairs, which just released on May 13th.

[JD Barker]

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, JD. That was great.

[Guest Speaker]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found the interview with JD Thought provoking. And if you think I could never do that. Well, me too. We all have different kinds of author careers. We all have to lean into our strengths and what comes more easily to us than others. And for a sustainable career, lean into the things we enjoy doing. That which brings us joy and makes us smile and leave the rest behind. For example, I've tried co writing several times. It's really not for me, but I do try to cast a wider net in terms of writing in different genres under JF Pen. That creative side is where I'm most happy and you must find your path to too. You can hear more from JD on the Writers Inc. Podcast and we will both be at Author Nation in November and we will be having a Patreon meetup as well. If you're a patron, let me know what you think of today's show. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel, or email me joannathecreativepenn.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Coming up later this week I have a special in between episode talking about book discoverability in an age of AI. We're talking about Generative Engine Optimization instead of Search Engine optimization and don't worry, it's not too technical and it's a discussion between me and Thomas Umstadt Jr. Who is host of the Novel Marketing show amongst others has more shows now. Thomas does and we have we have a laugh and we also talk about what we can do to make sure our books are discoverable. Then next week it's back to craft as I talk about finding your voice, writing across genre and loving book marketing with Betsy Lerner who has worked across all areas of the publishing business. And it is a fun interview. And remember, you can get successful self publishing [e-mail] SSP4 and if you'd like to join me for my AI assisted artisan author webinar, the links are at thecreativepenn.com livelihood in the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and x hecreative pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor Happy writing and I'll see you next time.