← The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
Dark Tourism And Self-Publishing Premium Print Books With Images With Leon Mcanally
00:45:31
What is dark tourism and why are many of us interested in places associated with death and tragedy? How can you write and self-publish a premium print guidebook while managing complicated design elements, image permissions, and more?
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- [00:01]
Joanna Penn
Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots more@thecreativepenn.com and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 780 of the podcast and it is Thursday the 7th of November 2024 as I record this a little bit early as I am heading for Las Vegas tomorrow and I will be there at Author Nation, the biggest indie author conference in the world. As this goes out in today's show I'm talking to Leon McInally about dark tourism and self publishing premium print books with of images and we talk about how permissions work, the permissions process and Leon is passionate about sharing historical aspects of the UK and he talks about his research and challenges in making this Labour of Love project. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things. Well, not a lot going on this week since the US and the rest of the world has been busy let's say. And of course this is not a political show, so I'm not going to comment any more than that Written Word Media does have an article on Level up with author why, how and when you should consider an assistant. They say authors are juggling more than just writing, they're managing marketing, social media and a slew of administrative tasks. With so much on their plates, many authors find themselves struggling to keep up, leaving little time to focus on what truly creating their next great book. This is where an author assistant can be a game changer, offering the support you need to streamline your workload, reach more readers and grow your author brand without burning out. So some questions to consider if you're thinking about Are administrative and marketing tasks eating into your writing time? Are you meeting your goals? And if you're not making progress on bigger career objectives, could an assistant help you move the needle? And also do you have the budget? Author assistants can be a great investment, but they cost money. So be sure you're ready to invest without draining your finances. Now the article is interesting, but also I have a few tips. My big tip here is do not try to get one person. So I don't think it is so much author assistant as author assistants and one person will not be able to do everything for you. Those people, they just don't exist. Clones of you or, you know, people who can do everything don't exist. So the main thing is to list out the tasks you need doing and then find people for those different things. For example, someone who loves video and posts on TikTok is different to someone who might run your Amazon ads. That might also be different to someone who pitches, you know, media and podcasts on your behalf. And that's different again to someone who might help you with graphic design and book covers. I also think you need to ask, should I be doing this at all? If you're thinking, okay, this is the task I think needs doing, is it really necessary? Does this really move the needle towards your goals? And also, is there a tool that will do this for me? Plus how long do I want help for? So maybe you want someone to manage your Facebook ads for three months over launch and that's it. It's also a good idea to set criteria for success and review that regularly. So personally, right now I don't have one single assistant. I have different people for different things. So I have a bookkeeper, I have an accountant, I have Jane for book design and book covers, I have Kristin for editing, I have Rebecca for podcast transcript formatting. And I also use a lot of different tools. So for the podcast, for example, I use different software instead of an assistant. And then for things like audiobooks, I've got Hindenburg narrator, which means I do audiobook mastering myself. Instead of hiring that out, I use descript for podcast and all of that. I generally use Amazon auto ads, so I don't need anyone for that. And I mostly don't bother much with social media unless it's a launch. And then I just schedule things with Buffer app. There's lots of schedulers there. So yes, assistance can be useful. And I did want to emphasize that I do pay for people to help me. But what I don't think is necessary is someone to do a lot of the tasks that may not make any difference. So I wanted to just make that clear. If you're feeling overwhelmed, then the first thing to do is just to say, do I need to do this at all? And then the second question, can I find someone to help with this specific task? So I hope that gives you some tips. In personal news. I finished the first draft of how to Write Nonfiction, the second edition this week. It's almost an entire rewrite and certainly a reorganise. And I'm now in self editing mode, which I obviously do by hand on the physical manuscript. So that is fun. And then yesterday as I record this, I was up in Peterborough at the Book Vault Printing Factory signing the special first edition Blood Vintage hardbacks. You can see the pictures and a little video on Instagram and Facebook. Fpenauthor if you backed the campaign, the UK paper the UK Hardbacks indeed should be with you in the next week and in other places by the end of November or the first week of December. They are all tracked so if you don't have your book by the the end of the first week in December, please do email me joannafpen.com you should also be able to see some pictures from Death Valley by the time this goes out since I will have visited as part of book research for the next thriller novel, which right now is known as the Desert Book. And now again as this goes out, it's Author Nation time. So if you're here, do say hello. I am up for selfies, but no hugging, no handshakes, elbow bumps only. That is my prevention as much as possible. And of course next week I will hopefully give you a bit of an update on some things I learned. And yeah, I'm excited for the week. So thanks for all your emails and comments and photos this week. Susie sent me pictures from a beautiful graveyard Bishop's Quarter in Bally Vaughan, County Clare on the west coast of Ireland. The view from Bishop's Quarter are pretty stunning. One way you can see the Atlantic Ocean turn around and you can see the stony landscape of the Burren stretches off into the distance and there are photos. Gorgeous. And there's a ruined church. Just wonderful. So yes, I love to see your photos where you're listening or your local graveyards. That's always good. And you can leave a comment on the podcast show notes@wcreative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. Or email me and send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreative I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation. So today's show is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life. Kobo's free, fast and easy self publishing platform, KWL was built by Authors for Authors and their team of dedicated book lovers is always working hard to help you reach new readers around the world. Kobo's author first approach is why they built a promotions tool for you to easily and affordably market your book directly to Kobo readers. There are lots of promotional opportunities for you to keep an eye out for. From daily deals, percent off promotions and buy more save more sales, you'll be sure to find something that suits your books and marketing plans. The promotional offerings are updated often, so make sure you're regularly taking a look to see what's on offer. And in fact this ad as I was prepping it reminded me to go in and submit my books to some more things. So essentially I go in every three weeks and I submit all my books, as many as possible to as many of the promotions promotions as possible. Not all of them get accepted, but some of them do and this is the best way to sell more books on Kobo. If you're a KWL author and don't yet have access to the promotions tool, email the team@writinglifecobo.com and they can enable it for you. Or if you have any questions, the team are very friendly and helpful. If you want to learn more about kwl, check out the Kobo Writing Live podcast, available wherever you're listening to this, and find them on social media. You can create your free account today@kobo.com writinglife so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my community@patreon.com thecreativepenn thanks to the seven new patrons who've joined this week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. You are amazing. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and extra audio covering topics on creativity, writing, AI, publishing, marketing, business mindset, and my patron only Q and A solo episodes. This week I put out a video on the productive writer mindset and we have our meetup at Author Nation this week. Lots more content to come as well. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month, or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous, or about a.
- [10:02]
Leon McInally
Quarter of the coffee in Las Vegas.
- [10:06]
Joanna Penn
And you get access to everything, all the backlist content and Q&As. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview. Leon McInally is the author of A.
- [10:28]
Leon McInally
Guide to Dark Attractions in the uk, which is brilliant. And my quote is on the back. I said a fascinating book for all the dark little souls out there. So welcome to the show.
- [10:39]
Leon thank you Jonah, for having me.
- [10:42]
Oh, I'm I'm excited to talk about this topic and you and I are both dark little souls. But first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self publishing.
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Well, I studied travel and tourism in college and that's where I first learned of this term called dark tourism. Place associated with death, suffering and tragedy. And I came away looking into these places. Really fascinating, the tourism aspect and the history aspect. And my university touched on this topic more. So I went and studied travel and tourism at the University of Northampton and I focused a lot around the motivations of dark tourism and the ethical issues around art tourism. After uni, I wasn't sure what to do, but I wanted to travel to a lot of the places that I'd been writing about, like Auschwitz and the catacombs of Paris. And then I got into writing because I came across yourself, actually, when I was researching dark tourism, I think you popped up on a website and I started reading your arcane series and looked into yourself a bit more and I was like, God, you're just an inspiration.
- [11:54]
Thank you.
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So, yeah, it's stemmed from that and then yourself. And then I was in Paris visiting the catacombs at the time. And that evening I sat down, was like, what do I not do with myself now? And then I thought to myself, there's no book that covers, like, dark tourism across the whole of the uk. And yeah, it set me off on a journey really well.
- [12:22]
First of all, I'm really thrilled to inspire you and I'm glad I turned up on some website that. That's excellent. But let's just return this idea of dark tourism. You mentioned places associated with death, suffering and tragedy and mentioned two places that are quite different. Auschwitz, which of course is modern horror, really, and the Paris catacombs, which, if people don't know, are full of plague dead, but it's bones that are arranged in different ways. I find the catacombs like an awesome place. I'm sure you enjoyed it as well, right?
- [12:52]
Yeah, yeah, definitely. It was really eye opening.
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Joanna Penn
Yeah, exactly.
- [12:57]
Leon McInally
But I think those two places are disturbing in different ways. But people are like, why are the pair of you interested in this stuff? So what do you think? You mentioned studying the motivations. Why do people visit these places? Why do you? And I find these places interesting.
- [13:12]
I think there's a number of factors at play. It depends on the place you're visiting, because dark tourism is an umbrella term for loads of places, places. And that's what a lot of people don't realize. So it could be that you go to a memorial to remember people who have tragically died, and it also could be a totally different place and it makes you perceive life differently and how you Wish to be known in life as well as afterlife. I think the cemeteries, the Victorian cemeteries that are within my book, the magnificent seven cemeteries in London, I visited them and one gave me a kind of inspiration and motivated me with my book. But also look at the people who are buried there and how they are known after life. Like they were known back when they were alive and they're still being known and their story and their life history is being retold and I mean, you're.
- [14:20]
Still in your 20s and I'm nearly 50, but we share this idea, I think around Memento mori. Remember, you will die. And by going to these places, it's almost inspiring. You mentioned the word inspiration inspiring you on how to live your life.
- [14:39]
Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of these places, that's one thing from each place I've visited, while they are different, it still drive that determination in getting my book out there and getting these places known. Because there's so many simple memorials to massive tragedies. There's one in burns immemorial to a coal mining disaster I believe killed 361 people. And I look at that and think that Abbey Gavanny in Wales, that is an awful disaster as well. And that's a kind of well known disaster and it tragically killed a number of children and that's really well known. But I feel like this other one in Barnsley should just be as well known as that one.
- [15:27]
Joanna Penn
Yes.
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Leon McInally
If people have seen the Crown, they show that Welsh tragedy on the crown. I can't remember which series, but I get what you mean. Like some of these things are more famous than others. For example, Auschwitz, obviously that's not in the uk, but many people will have heard of that and the deaths that went on there. But there were so many other camps that was not like the only camp. But that seems to be what people think of. So as you say, it's remembering the past, but also helping us live in the future. So I did also though want to ask, what reactions do you or have you had around this? So do your family think you're weird? Do your friends think that you're weird? Like, what are the reactions when you.
- [16:07]
Go into these places? A lot of people don't consider it dark tourism. Like you may just go to a castle and learn about executions and walk away and don't consider that as dark tourism, but it falls under this umbrella term. So I'm like, you've participated in dark tourism without knowing it. And then, yeah, they do find some of the places that I've Visited a bit odd and peculiar. There's a place called Little Dean Jail that's a really A gentleman has this old jail and he's filled it with a number of artifacts and newspaper clippings and it's got artifacts to the likes of Fred and Rosemary west, the infamous serial killers and the Kray twins. And they found that a bit kind of strange. Like why would you want to go there and see that? But it's. Yeah, that was a very unusual experience.
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Did you find that it was glorifying the serial killers or it was more just. Just exposing them?
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Yeah, I felt because the rooms within the jail, when I walked into Fred and Rose west this cell and it had belongings like his work boots and a tie and a cabinet and it had newspaper clippings. Obviously when it all happened, I felt like it was a shrine to them. And it was a bit strange. I was like, why would you want to have all of this on display and stuff? And Jerry, some aspects like, yeah, you can look at as it's glorifying these kind of infamous kind of criminals at the end of the day.
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But it's interesting that some places. So again we mentioned the catacombs. I find catacombs where there are bones that are obviously long dead more. I don't know, more peaceful in some way. And yet I don't want to visit serial killer things. So I think there are also gradations of people listening are like everything's the same thing. It's not, is it? So you can visit one thing and be disturbed, visit another and feel at peace. It's really tapping into those feelings.
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Yeah, there's definitely a lot of different emotions and feelings that come into these places. I definitely agree with yourself on that. If you go into the likes of Princess Diana's grave, you're going to there to pay respects and remember her life and you're going to feel a number of different emotions to maybe what you'd feel if you was to visit the Tower of London. Because you may take a tour and that's going to be very energized by the tour guide. And yeah, they're totally on different spectrums, but that's where it's an umbrella term dark tourism for all of these different kind of places.
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Yeah, it's interesting. I was thinking too whether it taps into the same thing as the True Crime podcast and True Crime is the biggest podcast niche. And I feel like perhaps dark tourism is similar. It comes from a similar place, a sort of fascination with death and the macabre and Having a separation from violence and death, like we're still alive, we're still fine and sort of reflecting that way. What do you think? Do you think it relates to like true crime?
- [19:21]
Yes, in some aspects, yes. But it depends how recent. I think as well a kind of event is. Because there's got to be some underlying historical, factual elements. That dark tourism element. Because I think the dark tourism has been getting thrown around and being used for marketing of places on the kind of wrong aspects. Because places in America and stuff, places like that are haunted and have got saying they've got poltergeist there and things like that are miles and their self is dark tourism. And I'm like, no, it's not. It's not that. There's got to be the factual kind of history element. It's been labeled under this term dark tourism.
- [20:12]
Oh no, I like that because that annoys me as well. I'm like that. To me, I know what dark tourism is. But as you pointed out, a lot of people might get confused. So let's get into the book then, because I have lots of dark tourism and I guess I call them death culture. So Morbid Anatomy and books around that cool thing. Paul Kudinaris, I'm sure you've seen his books, lots of that kind of thing. I feel like you could have pitched this to traditional publishing, but you went indie. Why did you decide to self publish this book?
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I think that's where yourself comes into play a little bit. Because you inspired me, because you're self published and everything. So that kind of came into play. But when I actually started looking into it with my designers and they said you could take it to a publishing company but you wouldn't have so much control over elements of it. And that was a big thing because I was covering the umbrella term of a number of sites, I didn't want a publisher to be like, no, I don't feel that site should be in there. I don't feel that site should be in it. Oh, this should be in there. It gave me the control of giving like a vast kind of amount of attractions and showing what falls under this term. And also about when I was styling my book as well. Some publishers may have a particular kind of format and style that they would steer towards and I didn't want to be constrained on the designing aspects of my book, really. And it gave me a bit of freeness, should we say?
- [21:44]
Yeah, I love that. And I mean, that's why a lot of people go indie, because of the control aspect of the what goes in the book and the design? We're going to come back to the design, but let's talk about the research. You did mention a bit earlier that you went traveling, but this particular book in the uk, it is really comprehensive. So how did you do your research?
- [22:04]
It took me in all three years. It was traveling to places and also working with a lot of places because I said I wanted to make sure the factual history element was there within each kind of place. So yeah, it was traveling to places and working places and also cross referencing information really.
- [22:33]
So how did you keep all that organized? If you visited a site, did you write notes in a journal? Did you write them on your phone?
- [22:43]
I used notebooks and I did use my phone to take bullet points of information. So I would read the exhibits and if there was bits of information that would stick out with me, then I would bullet point them. And then I also would then go back to the attraction and say, obviously I'm writing this book and I've got these informations. I just want to double check things. And that then started to build a relationship with the attractions. And I just found when I was researching it's. There's just so much. I didn't really want to use the Internet so much because there's just so much unreliable information and incorrect information. So I made sure that was up to date and things.
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I think that's great. How many things are there in the book? How many sites?
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Oh my God, there's just over 300 places.
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That's just incredible. So you didn't visit every single one of those?
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No, I couldn't visit every single one. I did visit a quite a few of them and yeah, I did work with quite a few as well, up to Scotland, all the way down to the south of England. I was working with places when I was writing about their history and things. And when I was saying I was writing about dark tourism, a lot of place would be like, oh, we're not too sure. But then showing them what I was writing about and giving them more of an in depth understanding of the dark tourism term that helped in me gaining places. But also some places was like, we still don't wish to fall under that term. There was one place that I did, I won't say the name of, but I'd written about and they was happy with the right. But they said, we don't wish to fall under this term dark tourism because we look at it more as a scientific kind of purposes. So I was like, okay, no, that's fine. And obviously they didn't make it into my book. And there was another aspect to it is I wanted to show how society reacts to pastors. So if it was a more memorial, how was societies reacted in the process of the disaster and after the process in remembering people? So that Barnsley coal mine disaster memorial, and there was a community help to that disaster and there's still a legacy of it. The community is wanting it to be known and remembered. So I felt that it was important that places like that went into my book. Really?
- [25:18]
Yeah. I mean, I agree with a lot of the. The places in the book, but you do have a lot more memorials and things that I would have. I've. I've got the book right here next to me. I've got my coffee next to me. And I just opened it. I just opened it to. In London. So you've got the Hunterian Museum, which is awesome. And I should say that inspired my book, Desecration. I love that museum. But next to it is the Hungerford Footbridge Skateboard Graveyard. So I was like, okay, that's really interesting because I know, I do know that if you walk over that bridge, you can see it, but why choose something like that? Is that more, as you said, the response to grief over something people care about?
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Yeah, it's the response of the skateboarding community, of what took place on that footbridge at the end of the day. And it's kind of how they remember a local skater. That aspect of they pull together and remember their fellow skater and they lay their skateboards and chuck them over the bridge.
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Yeah, it's interesting. In the book you say the skateboarding community has shown how the process of grief differs among communities and there's a need to personalize the way we honour someone's life. So I love that. I. I think it's really interesting what you've done with the book, but one of the things I noticed immediately is that there are lots of pictures. And this is. I've discovered that image permissions are a nightmare. And even if they're your photos, if they're in a private place, then you need permission. So how did you do this whole permissions area?
- [26:51]
It stems back to building that relationship with places. So I'd write the piece and I'd send it over and they would be quite happy with it. And I would say, I've got images for myself, or I've sourced images. Are you happy for this to be featured alongside it? And they was like, yes. Other place would be like, oh, we'd prefer to Give you an image for it to be credited. So I was happy to do that. It was literally building that relationship and saying, I'm writing a book. I'm looking at featuring you in my book. Can I write a piece and see what you think? And making sure that the kind of factual history element was correct and then going from there. Really? There was a couple of sites who was like, no, we don't. You can write a piece, but we don't wish for an image to be featured because we don't allow photography within this space. So that's why there's a few places I won't name that have not got images because they was, like, happy for the entry to be featured. But as they don't allow permission of photography, they didn't wish for an image to be featured within the book.
- [28:04]
And did you have to pay for any permissions?
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Yeah, I did have to pay for a few of the permissions, yeah.
- [28:12]
What sort of price are there?
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It varies a lot. One of them, one image was a lot. £170. To have it within my book to get the permission. But I was adamant that I wanted that image within my book.
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Yes, you have a lot of images. I like the book a lot because it has so many images. But as I said, when I looked at it, I was like, oh, my goodness, I know how much pain this is. So you must be very organized then, because to keep track of, like, if you're emailing all these places, you're sending them text, you're asking, asking for images. Did you have a process for keeping track of all of that, or are you just a super organized person?
- [28:51]
I am a very organized person. I get told I'm too over organized. Even in doing my daily job, I get told I'm too over organized because I'm looking at kind of February now and people are like, christmas is not even here yet. But yeah, it was emailing places and then I'd have kind of that permission. And I put it to one kind of side to keep at the end of the day. And I think my designer has a few as well. We keep them to one side because if later down the road they was to say, we don't wish for that image to be featured anymore and that's fine. We can obviously remove it and things at a later date.
- [29:33]
You mentioned your job. What do you do as a day job?
- [29:36]
I'm an activities coordinator in a care home. So, yeah, that did actually come in. It did make me think a little bit when I was writing about My book because working with the elderly, gender, kind of race, history is important to them. And I was speaking to the residents and they would tell me aspects of the war and stuff and their stories. They were so passionate about intelligence, to make sure that the young, like future generations, were known and they were told correctly. So, yeah, that had a bit of a impact as well while I was writing my book.
- [30:15]
Oh, I love that. So you mentioned your designer. So tell us, how did you work with the designer? Because you, as you said, you're quite controlling, so you must have known how you wanted it to look. But how did you find a designer and then work with them?
- [30:29]
Three designers actually collaborated on this book together. I had one main designer, Marie Louise, who owns a company, Lovely Evolution. And then she was working with another two designers as well. And they gave me different proofs and then I picked aspects that I liked from the different proofs and then that was bought into one. I was a bit picky along the way of my process of designing it. So even when I got the proofs, because there's a background on the pages, like the illustrated behind the text and the images and stuff, we only had the one proof of that. And I was like, oh, it would be a really good idea to have the sections with a different background. So, yeah, it was little bits like that I picked out and made suggestions, but all three designers were very good at working together. It was just a bit of a jigsaw puzzle, as probably, as you can probably see from looking at it and fitting it all together.
- [31:34]
Yeah, I mean, I think my brain is very different to your brain because it is, as you say, a jigsaw puzzle and your brain must have figured out how you wanted it to go. And as you say, there's so many little extra things, like in the corner of each section, there's like a little illustration as well, a dragon in Wales and different things there. And as you say, different background images as well as other images. I just think it's incredible.
- [32:00]
Joanna Penn
But you mentioned there are three.
- [32:01]
Leon McInally
Design took you three years. You've got all these permissions. What kind of budget did you have for this book? And basically, is this a labour of love?
- [32:11]
It is a labour of love because I'm just very passionate about our British history at the end of the day and dark tourism, people associate so many places abroad, like Auschwitz, the Catacombs of Paris, Ground Zero. And I was just like, they're so, so much to England. So it was a very passionate project in showing there's so much more in England. That's linked to dark tourism than people initially thought. There has been a budget and that it has gone over a bit. I'm not gonna lie, a bit.
- [32:43]
I think it does look like a pricey project as far as I can see. I did want to ask because at the moment I say the copy I have is a large scale, but it's still paperback. So are you planning on doing, I think, an ebook? It would work on a tablet, on an iPad or something. I think you could also do it an audiobook or a short form podcast or a hardback. Are you thinking of doing other editions?
- [33:08]
I can't say too much because we are working on other little things. But the physicality of the book is an important part to myself. Like, I feel like to appreciate it, you've got to be holding it. I know a lot of people like tablets and things and I do understand that. But I just feel like it's so heavily designed and my designers worked really hard on designing it and piecing it all together like the maps on their own. Mark worked on the maps of Pixuma and he took three months just working on the maps on their own. So I just feel like you have to be holding it to appreciate it. I'm a bit old school like that.
- [33:50]
I love this. You're like 20 years younger than me and you're so old school. But I am actually holding it and I am appreciating it as we're talking. So when did you work with an editor in the process for the words?
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I started working with an editor really early on, before the design kind of process. It was important to get the editing aspect of it all done to hand over to my designers because of the length of the text and obviously then putting it together like a puzzle piece. So that started very early on working with an editor. And she worked on Lonely Kind of Planet guidebooks and had a lot of experience on kind of guidebooks and things. And she made a number of kind of really good suggestions as well as the text because she also helped me on proofs of the designs. So she gave suggestions through the designs. From her experience.
- [34:45]
I think that's a great person to work with someone who's done like the Lonely Planet books. It is similar to that in the Vibe in that you don't sit down and read this cover to cover. You're going to dip in and out depending on different areas. Or sometimes I buy books like this for inspiration for my own travels, but also for my own writing. So I think that's cool.
- [35:07]
Joanna Penn
So We've got the book.
- [35:09]
Leon McInally
You've invested your time and your money in making this beautiful book. But marketing this kind of book is difficult. So tell us, how have you been marketing the book?
- [35:21]
I haven't stopped marketing the book since its release. It's been a real push. I've marketed the book from doing a few book signing events that stemmed from me building that relationship with places because they've been happy enough to hold me for book signing events. And then I've also done podcasts with people and using social media and yeah, speaking about the book wherever I can really.
- [35:49]
I did see you doing signings at interesting venues, like some of your dark venues on social media. How did you get people to come along to those? Because many people, including myself, are scared of doing signings because often nobody shows up. So how did you do that and how were those?
- [36:07]
Yeah, they worked okay. It did depend on the day and the footfall and a lot of the attractions because like we'd organized this book signing, they would promote it on their social media or via their newsletter. What really helped? Some places have been better than other places, but there has been this rippling effect I have noticed afterwards. So. So I have had people contact me afterwards and said, oh, I saw that you Zitsu Prison. I'd actually been interested in a copy of your book. And then I've also had places that have been then willing to stock it in their gift shop as well.
- [36:47]
Yeah, I was going to ask about the bookshops because it seems to me a lot of these bigger places have bookstores and if you can get them to take some copies and do it like that. But I know the profit margin on that is very low and they'll want their own profit. So are you pursuing more bookstore sales or are you preferring to sell from Amazon?
- [37:10]
I think like the agreements have worked quite well so far. The places that I've built that relationship with and worked with, they've been quite good, really, in compromising because obviously they have wanted to take a profit and a percentage of that. But then obviously they understand the product as well and obviously the time that I've put into it and my design is working on it and everything. Yeah, they've been quite good at working together. So.
- [37:39]
And then on social media, obviously you've been posting photos of of you in these different places and some of the research stuff. What have you found works on social media? Or are you just trying to do as much as possible and see what happens?
- [37:56]
I think one thing I have noticed is getting it into the relevant groups that would be interested and showing how that is relevant to that group. If you're gonna use social media and just plow it across social media and use kind of one post, then well, it probably wouldn't work. But because I've been going to groups and speaking to people and stuff and then seeing which aspects of my book links in and then I've shared about it, then it's helped as well.
- [38:28]
It is full color, has so many pictures. The production value is high on the book. So I think this is a gift book as well. This is something that people buy and have on their shelf or their coffee table, whatever, which is difficult in one way to market, but in other ways it's evergreen. Right. So it's going to keep selling over time as opposed to make you tons of money right now and then stop selling. This is more like a long term prospect, I think.
- [39:00]
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Me and my. The designs I worked with wanted. It is that guidebook that you can take with you, but also is a coffee table bookshelf kind of book that is a talking point and something that you can pick up, read one entry and put it back down and then pick up and read a different entry another day. So yeah, it's not gonna generate that massive one. I do see it as a trickle in long term thing and hopefully work on other ideas alongside that.
- [39:33]
Yes, well, that's the other thing. Marketing one book is hard. So are you considering dark attractions of Europe or have you thought of other book ideas or was it just a one off?
- [39:45]
There is other ideas. I'm working with my designers. I'm also working with the attractions still closely. So yeah, there's little ideas there, but it would be at a moment where I'm just not expecting it and it will all just gel itself together. Because like I said, going back, you inspired me. And I'd learned of this term dark tourism and it was when I was on holiday of an evening. It literally will be. I'll have a moment and I think, right, okay, that is it. And I just know. So, yeah, I'm kind of working on a few different ideas that I'm trying to just gel together at the moment.
- [40:26]
Oh no, I love that. That's a kind of. You said you're super organized and quite controlling, but you're also intuitive. So that I think that sounds great. But just looking back over the years you've been working on this project. So if people are thinking of doing something like this, what would you say were the biggest challenges of this project that you've learned to do differently. If you do another project like this.
- [40:54]
I think don't put too much pressure on yourself along the whole process of my book that I was very, I think, harsh myself because it was like a vast book and I was doing a number of different places. There's so many aspects, as like yourself said to this book, designing, researching, writing. And then I was emailing and I was calling and I was sourcing in images. If you're going to take on a big project like this, don't be too harsh on yourself and just give a good time management to each aspect, really, that you're working on and have time to step back away from the whole test to re energize. Because I look back and it was a hefty project to take on. I was very determined. But, yeah, I was very harsh on myself as well.
- [41:44]
I do remember when we had originally talked, you had a timeline in mind and then you said, no, it's gonna take longer. As you said, this is a huge project. So had you underestimated, I guess, the amount of work?
- [41:58]
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I definitely underestimated. I was writing and there were so many places that I wanted to get in and then research. And then when I got to just over 300, I was like, this is the cut and rope kind of moment. And there's a lot more to the design process because I know that I wanted a lot from my designers and I asked for a lot in the whole kind of designs and I was picky. So, yeah, there was that aspect. And my main design really was she fell pregnant and didn't expect to fall pregnant in the process. So.
- [42:39]
Yeah, well, I. I think you've done an incredible job. So how do you feel now? Are you proud of the book? Is it everything you wanted it to be?
- [42:50]
Yeah, yeah, I am really proud of it. I am happy with it. I just want to keep on pushing it and getting it out there and known. It's not a, like, kind of financial element. It's actually, I want to get more of our history made aware. Like I said, there is loads of little places in there that are simple memorials or just little places that people are just not aware about. And I'm very passionate about our British history and I just want it to be known and I want give people inspiration to just have a simple little day trip out because people say, oh, there's nothing to do and we've got to go abroad and stuff to go on holiday. But there's just so much that people don't realise that they used to do.
- [43:33]
That is so true. The more I stay in our country, the more interesting I find things. There's so much history here. So where can people find you and the book online?
- [43:45]
You can find my book on Amazon and I do have a Facebook page, Darktractions uk. And yeah, people can follow me through that and keep up to date.
- [43:56]
So thanks so much for your time today, Leon. That was great.
- [44:00]
Thank you Jonah for having me. It was fantastic speaking to you. Thank you.
- [44:09]
Joanna Penn
So I hope you found this episode useful if you're considering image heavy books in terms of how long the process might take and whether it's worth it to you for your project. And I am still considering my options for Gothic Cathedrals. As ever. I love to hear your thoughts about the interview or about anything I talk about in the introduction. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel, or message me on X hecreative Pen or email me joannathecreativepenn.com Send me pictures of where you're listening next week. I'm talking about writing memoir and how to deal with being attacked online with Natalie MacLean. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show notes@thecreativepen.com podcast and you can get your free author blueprint@thecreativepen.com blueprint. If you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X hecreative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor Happy writing and I'll see you next time.