The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

Episode 857: "Editing a Novel: Self-Editing, And How To Work With A Professional Editor With Joanna Penn"
Host: Joanna Penn
Date: April 6, 2026
Main Theme:
A comprehensive, practical, and encouraging guide to the editing process—with a focus on self-editing, working with professional editors, utilizing beta/specialist/sensitivity readers, and understanding when your book is “finished.” Chapters are excerpted from Joanna’s audiobook, How To Write A Novel, bringing both craft wisdom and real-world publishing advice.

Episode Overview

Joanna Penn dives deep into the stages and mindset of editing a novel, from self-editing techniques to finding and collaborating with editors. She discusses the value of different types of readers, software tools, and working practices that help writers transform a messy first draft into a polished manuscript. The episode also touches on prepping for audio editions and the perennial authorial challenge: knowing when to stop editing.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Editing Process: Stages and Mindset

Timestamp: 29:18 – 36:00

• Editing is Rewriting:
  "Books aren't written, they're rewritten." — [29:24]

• Stages Outlined:

  • Self-Editing: Your chance to revise before anyone else sees your manuscript. For some, it means a full rewrite; for others, it's restructuring, adding scenes, or detailed line edits.
  • Developmental/Structural Edits: Feedback on big-picture elements—character, plot, and story structure.
  • Copyediting and Line Editing: The “red pen” phase, focusing on grammar, phrasing, and style. Terminology may vary globally.
  • Beta/Specialist/Sensitivity Readers: Reader-based feedback on story enjoyment, technical details, or cultural authenticity.
  • Proofreading: The final polish—catching typos or layout issues right before publication.

• Craft Example:
  Joanna references Thomas Hardy’s heavily annotated manuscripts as encouragement—“Those edited pages gave me hope when I saw them for the first time as a new fiction author.” [30:42]

2. Self-Editing: Tactics, Tools, and Mental Shifts

Timestamp: 36:01 – 48:13

• Switching From Writer to Editor:
  “With the editing process, you need to turn your story from something you understand into something a reader will enjoy. Writing is telepathy. It connects minds across time and space.” — [36:03]

• Joanna’s Self-Editing Process:

  • Print out the manuscript (“two pages to each A4 page”), read with fresh eyes after resting.
  • Edit by hand with pen; schedule focused blocks in a cafe with noise-canceling headphones.
  • Incorporate changes into Scrivener; repeat two or more full passes.

• Editing Focus:
  Joanna prefers editing for story as a “coherent whole,” but notes some authors do focused passes (character, plot, theme).

• Tools for Stuck Discovery Writers:
  Reverse outlining: “Go through and write a few lines per scene... This will help you see the entire story from a high level.”

• Reading Aloud / Audio Tools:
  Strongly recommended for all writers, especially for catching awkward prose and prepping for audiobook editions.
  “You’ll hear issues you can’t see on the page.”

3. Editing for Audio and Key Pitfalls

Timestamp: 43:30–48:13

• Watch for:

  • Repetitive sounds that can be jarring in narration (e.g., said/said/said).
  • Overly formal dialogue—use contractions for natural speech.
  • Mark/provide guidance for foreign accents so narrators don’t default to stereotypes.
  • Avoid confusing the listener with too many untagged characters.

• Notable Quote:
  “When reading on paper, your reader can quickly flick back... but that’s harder to do when listening. Make sure it’s clear who is who.”

4. How Many Drafts Is Enough?

Timestamp: 45:55–48:13

• No single right process.
  Joanna cites Nora Roberts: “Anyone who claims there is only one way, or ‘that’s the wrong way,’ is a stupid arrogant bullshitter. That’s my considered opinion.”

• Don’t compare your “drafts” to others: everyone defines terms differently.

5. Using Editing Software

Timestamp: 48:14–50:54

• ProWritingAid as Essential:
  “Once I finish my hand edits…I use ProWritingAid on the manuscript… It picks up passive voice, repetitive words, commas and typos, suggests rephrasing, and even picks up culturally problematic language.”

• Don’t accept every suggestion but use software to catch what you’re “blind” to.

• Choose your language standard (US versus UK English).

6. Knowing When to Stop Editing

Timestamp: 50:54–52:55 and 73:55–75:43

• If you’re “utterly sick” of the manuscript, it’s probably time for professional eyes.
• "You can edit forever if you keep obsessing. Set a completion date and hold yourself to it."
• Perfectionism can hold you back; pursue excellence, not perfection.

7. Working With a Professional Editor

Timestamp: 52:55–66:35

• Finding an Editor:

  • Look for genre specialists with solid testimonials.
  • Try sample edits; check out online directories (e.g., Alliance of Independent Authors, Reedsy) or author communities.

• The Working Relationship:

  • Expect contracts, timelines, deposits.
  • Communicate expectations up front—calls, feedback format, etc.

• The Emotional Side:

  • Receiving edits can be daunting, especially for first-time novelists.
  • Allow feedback to “sit” before responding emotionally.
  • Keep to your creative vision; you are not required to accept every suggestion.

• Notable Quote:
  “It is not the editor's job to pat you on the back and say well done. …Their job is to help you make it the best book it can be.”

• Cost and Budgeting:
  Editing is an investment; if money is tight, consider bartering or writers’ group exchanges (with tax compliance).

• On Stealing Manuscripts:
  “Editors are professionals. They work within a contractual framework that protects both parties.”

8. Beta Readers, Specialist Readers, and Sensitivity Reads

Timestamp: 66:36–73:55

• Definitions:

  • Beta Readers: Trusted fans or community members who provide reader-first feedback.
  • Specialist Readers: Experts who vet your book for technical or thematic accuracy (e.g., volcanologists, police).
  • Sensitivity Readers: Provide feedback on representation, stereotypes, and cultural bias.

• Feedback Best Practices:

  • Keep your group small and focused; clear instructions help.
  • Weigh all suggestions on their own merit and avoid “writing by committee.”
  • Not all suggestions must be accepted—stay true to creative intent.

• Quote:
  “Being a fiction writer is also about empathy with our characters and with our readers, so improving our ability to write about diverse characters is important. However, authors cannot be experts on every experience…” — [68:03]

9. When is the Book Truly Finished?

Timestamp: 73:55–75:43

• Perfection is unattainable; even bestsellers contain errors.

• "Set boundaries so you do eventually finish."

• If you feel the urge to endlessly re-edit, ask if it's real improvement or procrastination.

• Questions to Ask Yourself:

  • Have you completed a self-edit and professional edit?
  • Have you used appropriate feedback tools and readers?
  • Have you set a publishing deadline?
  • Are you hiding from publishing out of fear?

• Quote:
  “Strive for excellence, do your best, and then release your book out into the world.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Books aren't written; they're rewritten.” — Michael Crichton [29:24]
• “With the editing process, you need to turn your story from something you understand into something a reader will enjoy.” — Joanna Penn [36:03]
• “You can edit forever if you keep obsessing. Set a completion date and hold yourself to it.” — Joanna Penn [51:55]
• “Anyone who claims there is only one way or ‘that's the wrong way’ is a stupid arrogant bullshitter. That's my considered opinion.” — Nora Roberts, quoted by Joanna Penn [46:33]
• “It is not the editor’s job to pat you on the back and say well done. …Their job is to help you make it the best book it can be.” — Joanna Penn [62:10]
• “There will never be a novel that satisfies everyone and that’s fine.” — Joanna Penn [74:18]

Useful Timestamps for Key Segments

• Editing Process Overview: 29:18–36:00
• Self-Editing Deep Dive: 36:01–48:13
• Editing for Audio: 43:30–48:13
• Editing Software: 48:14–50:54
• Professional Editors: 52:55–66:35
• Beta/Specialist/Sensitivity Readers: 66:36–73:55
• When Is the Book Finished?: 73:55–75:43

Episode Tone and Style

Joanna’s tone is pragmatic, supportive, and candid. She anchors craft advice with personal anecdotes, acknowledges the emotional side of editing, and always reminds listeners to keep the reader’s experience central.

Takeaway for Listeners

Editing is multi-faceted and iterative—there’s no single “right” way, but there are best practices, useful tools, and a supportive community of editors and readers to help you polish your manuscript. The goal is not perfection, but excellence within healthy boundaries, leading to a book you’re proud to send into the world.

For more craft episodes and writerly resources, visit thecreativepenn.com/podcast.