Finding Your Voice, Writing Across Genre And Loving Book Marketing With Betsy Lerner

Summary

The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
Episode Title: Finding Your Voice, Writing Across Genre And Loving Book Marketing With Betsy Lerner
Release Date: June 16, 2025
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Betsy Lerner, Award-Winning Editor, Literary Agent, and Author

---

Introduction

In Episode 814 of The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers, Joanna Penn delves into the intricate aspects of finding one's unique voice, navigating writing across various genres, and embracing the often daunting world of book marketing. The episode features an insightful conversation with Betsy Lerner, a seasoned professional in the publishing industry who brings a wealth of experience from her multifaceted career as an editor, agent, and author.

Finding Your Voice

Key Discussion Points:

• The Essence of Voice in Writing: Betsy emphasizes that discovering one's voice is an organic process rooted in consistent writing practice across different formats, such as diaries, blogs, and screenplays.

  Betsy Lerner [22:31]: "The key thing is simply writing and understanding that all the writing you do is either in practice of the professional writing you might do, or it's just who you are and how you express yourself."

• Overcoming the Myth of the "Exalted Writer": Reflecting on her own journey, Betsy debunks the notion that writers are inherently special or destined for literary acclaim from a young age.

  Betsy Lerner [20:48]: "When I entered the business, I believed that writers were exalted beings. And that made me smile because I remember feeling like that I always was a reader and I thought I could never be a writer because they're so, so special."

Writing Across Genres

Key Discussion Points:

• Diversity in Writing: Betsy shares her experiences transitioning between genres and formats, highlighting how versatility can enhance a writer's adaptability in the evolving publishing landscape.

• The Impact of Personal Experiences: Her novel, Shred Sisters, is a testament to how personal tragedies and experiences can fuel creative expression, blending fiction with profound emotional depth.

  Betsy Lerner [25:37]: "It's a separate story from that. But I feel that all of those events are deeply connected to my writing fiction for the first time."

Loving Book Marketing

Key Discussion Points:

• Embracing Marketing as Communication: Betsy reframes marketing from a sales tactic to a form of communication, essential for connecting with readers and sharing one's work.

  Betsy Lerner [39:26]: "All it boils down to is communicating and figuring out that one line pitch that can get people interested in your book and then just putting a lot of elbow grease into it."

• The Evolution of Publishing and Marketing: She discusses the shift from traditional publishing support to a model where authors must actively engage in their own marketing efforts, including leveraging platforms like TikTok.

  Betsy Lerner [41:29]: "It's not true at all. In fact, publishers these days, days are most drawn to authors who have come with a platform, either a large social media platform or an institutional platform, because that helps them sell their books."

• Overcoming Reluctance Towards Marketing: Betsy encourages writers to view marketing creatively and as an extension of their writing, making it less intimidating and more integrated into their creative process.

  Betsy Lerner [39:00]: "If you were to open a store and you lovingly furnished it with all sorts of goods that you've handpicked and you've made the store so beautiful, but then all you did was put an open sign in the door."

Interview Highlights with Betsy Lerner

Background and Career Path:

• Betsy recounts her unconventional entry into publishing, initially studying film at NYU before pivoting to English and eventually climbing the editorial ladder.

• Her transition to a literary agent was motivated by the need for flexibility when starting a family, leading her to embrace both creative and business aspects of publishing.

  Betsy Lerner [17:06]: "As an editor and even as an agent, always really loved and respected all the people all up and down the chain who contributed."

Writing Later in Life:

• Betsy shares her personal journey of writing her first novel, Shred Sisters, in her mid-60s, highlighting how life’s adversities fueled her creative output.

• She discusses the challenges and rewards of debuting as a "senior late bloomer," leveraging her industry experience to garner attention and support for her work.

  Betsy Lerner [24:58]: "I think all the writing I did came together in this novel in my mid-60s. I was very fortunate that I was able to get it published."

Navigating the Modern Publishing Landscape:

• Impact of AI and Changing Ecosystems: Betsy touches on the disruptive influence of AI in publishing, aligning with Seth Godin’s views on changing business models and ecosystems.

  Betsy Lerner [07:57]: "AI has upended an ecosystem that many organizations assumed was normal and here to stay."

• Platform Building and Social Media: She discusses the necessity of building a personal brand and platform in today’s digital age, using her own success on TikTok as an example.

  Betsy Lerner [45:49]: "Now that night I went home and I realized I have all these diaries. Maybe I can do this. And that first post that I did went viral, so that was very encouraging."

Advice for Writers:

• Consistency and Persistence: Betsy underscores the importance of continuous writing and marketing efforts, advising against giving up after initial setbacks.

• Balancing Success and Fear of Failure: She explores the delicate balance writers must maintain between striving for success and managing the fear of not achieving it.

  Betsy Lerner [34:36]: "There are some people who are so blinded by the desire for success that their work almost seems to be secondary."

Conclusions and Takeaways

Joanna Penn and Betsy Lerner wrap up the episode by reiterating the significance of embracing both the creative and business sides of writing. Betsy’s journey exemplifies how perseverance, adaptability, and a genuine passion for books can empower writers to navigate the complexities of the modern publishing world successfully.

Final Thoughts:

• Embracing Change: Writers must remain adaptable, willing to explore new platforms and marketing strategies to reach their audience.
• Community and Connection: Building genuine connections, both online and offline, can enhance marketing efforts and foster a supportive writer community.
• Continuous Learning: Engaging with various forms of writing and seeking feedback are crucial for developing a unique voice and honing one’s craft.

---

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for writers seeking to find their voice, explore different genres, and effectively market their work in an ever-evolving publishing landscape, enriched by Betsy Lerner’s extensive industry insights and personal anecdotes.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 814 of the podcast and it is Saturday the 14th of June 2025. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking about finding your voice, writing across genre and loving book marketing with Betsy Lerner who has worked across all areas of the publishing business over a long career. Now. I loved this interview and Betsy is a real character with a blend of the creative writer and the business minded agent and marketer perspective. That's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing Things well, Self Publishing Advice has an article on going local authors on the payoffs and pitfalls of hometown sales and promotion. They say going local often provides the surest path to meaningful publicity. Standing in front of a library audience, chatting at a farmers market stall or fielding questions on community radio transforms a distant byline into a a neighbour that readers can root for. That face to face connection sparks genuine word of mouth. Local coverage also offers built in story angles a national outlet would miss. A novel set in town. A book launch at the historic theatre or a workshop at the high school gives reporters and event planners an immediate reason to say yes. Still, going local takes persistence and a clear sense of return and whether it's worth it. Lots of different authors quoted in the article Natasha Backs noted, I do really well at local craft markets. After testing out a few my first year, I found the larger ones, where 3 to 5,000 people attend over the weekend, were my largest success considering the cost of my time, the table fees versus sales and exposure. The smaller ones were cut unless the table fee was free. So interesting tip there. Vicky Masters said, I sell at craft fairs but do really well at agricultural shows. People are interested to speak to the author and historical fiction is a draw. So that's interesting to me because I wouldn't have said historical fiction was sort of well placed for an agricultural show. But to be honest, book buyers will be anywhere and perhaps you stand out more at an agricultural show. On the other side of the argument, Kevin McLachlan says, Personally I'm of the opinion that this sort of thing barely ever passes the WIBBO test. That's would I be better off writing and calculates his per hour rate based on the books he could write with that time. And Tracy Cooper Posey says a group of Canadian indie authors and I regularly discuss how badly we're treated here. We're essentially invisible. We can't get traction with local writing groups, funding bodies, or libraries which refuse to stock our books because we're not real writers. The Canadian literary scene shuns indie publishing, awards and grants exclude us and the media follow suit. Every few few years I try breaking the barriers, but I end up quitting and going back online where at least I can find other indie authors to commiserate with. I've tried the local scene. It doesn't work for me. So I actually really like this article with the breadth of experience that people have had. Because selling in person and doubling down on being human as you know is something I think is more important than ever as the online space becomes ever more crowded. And it's also hard to know who is real on social media anymore and what is just a bot. Personally I do find it extremely difficult to do in person things. It's very, very tiring and intense. But it's still something I keep aiming to get better at and perhaps it's something that you are also going back and forth on. So I think that article's a good look at both the pros and the cons. Also, have a listen to episode 772 from last September with Mark Lefebvre when we discussed selling books in person at live events. And Mark is Canadian and does very well at in person events, unlike Tracy's experience there. So it works for some and not for others. It works for some books and not for others, it works at different places and not at others. And also it takes time to get your processes sorted from how you set your table up, what you have for giveaways, which books you take, especially if you have a big backlist and then things like payment processing, how you deal with all of that. So if you're going to try in person sales and marketing, don't just do one event and then give up. Make a plan, try different things iterate, see how it goes. Talking about other things that you might be resisting. Steven Pressfield has an article on his blog titled Artist Equals Entrepreneur. Steve's been on this show a number of times and is best known for his book the War of Art. Although personally I like his book Turning Pro. So in the article he uses Ryan Holiday and Jack Carr as examples. Now Ryan's been on this show also Ryan writes non fiction and is most famous for stoicism books and Jack writes thrillers, the article says. They are not just writers, they are industries. Both have podcasts, both have extensive speaking careers, both have massive online presences, both tour and both have online stores. And in fact, Ryan Holiday has his A physical bookstore. Steve says, you may say, and I might say myself, hey, I don't want to do that. I'm a writer. I don't have time to build an empire, and I wouldn't want to if I could consider this. However, the year is 2025. The world has changed you, and I can't hope for a review of our newest novel in the New York Times. The apparatus of awareness generation that once supported writers and artists no longer exists, or at least has changed form dramatically. I'm not trying to discourage us, I swear. I'm only trying to point to the hardball reality of the 2025 creative world. Each of us must be the face of our brand. We must have a brand, even if it's the idea of not having a brand. Nothing is more dispiriting than to launch a work of our best and truest art into the world and have it vanish without a trace. We are of necessity entrepreneurs, you and I, and we have to learn one way or another how to represent ourselves and our work as such. So yes, I always get tough love from Steve. Like I said, that book Turning Pro is very challenging. And I read, read it. You know, I now read it probably every couple of years. I used to read it every year. But yes, really good to think about this. If you want to sell books, and I know not everybody does, writing for the sake of writing is completely valid. Writing a book, publishing a book and not doing any marketing at all is completely fine if your definition of success is just writing a book. But if you want to actually sell some books, then yeah, taking this into account is really important and there must be something in the air. Seth Godin also posted on his blog an article titled Ecosystems Come and Go. He talks about how he used to have a business publishing almanacs, long detailed fact checked reference books that might save a trip to the library when there are plenty of bookstores and no Internet. The almanac is an important resource and a useful business model. I also had a division that made DVD ROMs for book publishers.

[Betsy Lerner]

Remember those?

[Joanna Penn]

Remember when they used to have magazines and on the front you would get the dvd? Oh, such fun. In Carta, do you remember Encarta? The CD ROM thing? Anyway, Seth talks about other business models that have changed or disappeared he says Google profited from building a huge search ecosystem and selling little slivers of it to advertisers. Many companies and projects thrived from the organic or paid traffic they got from billions of people doing a search. And now it's very clear that search traffic is way down and will almost certainly never recover. AI has upended an ecosystem that many organizations assumed was normal and here to stay. We can lament the end of an ecosystem. After all, we worked hard to get here and we counted on it. We're comfortable with it, and we understand it. Or we can accept that ecosystems come and go and focus our energy on how the next ecosystem gives us a chance to do our work, new work, different work, but the work that matters for people who care. So yes, again, some tough love from Seth Godin, and nice that it fits in well with the episode I just did with Thomas Umstadt, which was in was the last episode as this goes out. And both of these articles underscore the message from Kevin Kelly's thousand true fans idea, which, to be fair, has always been the basis of my business and is now more important than ever. Put your best work out there. Bring people closer to you somehow by essentially sharing yourself along the way, however you want to do that. Some of them may spend their money on your books or be your patron, thank you patrons, or join your webinars or back your Kickstarters because some of them care. It takes time, certainly a lot more time than paying for an ad that drives traffic once, and perhaps you never see that customer again. But I'm still here after almost 20 years of writing and 18 years of putting myself out there online. Steve Pressfield is still writing and blogging and he does videos as well. And so is Seth Godin, who's still blogging every day. After decades. I think three decades now, Seth has been blogging every day. So that's also the message of the interview today and I hope it sparks some ideas for you and I guess a desire to connect more to draw readers closer to you. And and it's really about figuring out what can you do to foster that and what can you adopt for the longer term so that it is sustainable and enjoyable for you. In personal news, I went on a research trip this week to Exeter Cathedral. You can see some pictures on my Instagram Fpenauthor that is part of my Gothic Cathedral book research. On the way there I read a book on the train about Gothic architecture and then on the way home I wrote some words and when I got home I actually had loads of ideas and wrote some words on that project. And as ever, it's always lovely when the creative cycle turns again and you go from feeling like you have absolutely nothing to say, you'll never write a book again, which, trust me, happens on every single book. And then you start feeling those sort of, I guess, prickles of interest again and curiosity and desire to write and all of that really helps. And I had an idea about the structure of the book and for me, structuring often happens quite late in the process after I've actually written a lot of the material, so it will be interesting to see how that turns out. Also Successful self publishing the 4th edition is now out everywhere. The audiobook is on my YouTube channel now and also 11 reader if you want to listen there. Death Valley is as well on both YouTube and 11 reader, as well as all the usual places. Reviews would be most appreciated on both of those books or any of my books on Goodreads. And if you don't know why we love Goodreads again, have a listen to the episode with Thomas from last week. Also, last chance to join me for my AI assisted artisan author webinar coming up this Saturday 21st of June, 11am US Eastern, 4pm UK. If you get a ticket, you'll get the replay and video audio, the slides, all the reports and also my prompt library [e-mail] live from the previous session last week. Parker said the AI artisan webinar was outstanding and Zoe said 100x value for the small investment. I learned heaps that will up level my writing business and marketing for my books. Thank you to Zoe and Parker for those kind words and if you would like to come thecreativepen.com live so thanks for all your emails and comments and photos this week. Emily sent pictures of beautiful flowers while out walking with her dog Teddy. I lapped up your discussion on everything, mind and body today. While Teddy and I enjoyed smelling the spicy luscious after a hard thunderstorm here in Maine, Tara said, I just finished walking the Camino Francaise for the third time, this time research for the next book. I found myself listening to your podcast on the long stretches to keep my brain from rambling. Here's a picture of me on the meseta and that is the very long hot dry stretch of the Camino there across northern Spain. So thank you Tara. Jack said on the music episode with Jennifer. I really enjoyed this as I too am an author and come from the music world. It's amazing how many similarities there are between music writing and marketing and books writing and marketing. I also took inspiration from another of your podcast episodes and built out the world for my Rockstar Romance trilogy, including writing songs to avoid the whole clearance or rights issue. A couple of weeks back in the studio next door to the Rolling Stones, no less. That's very cool, Jack. And then just a couple of wonderful cemetery photos. Chris sent a photo out his car window, Thought of you when I was stuck in traffic. Looked out my window at Drake Cemetery, Middlesex County, Massachusetts. Green trees, lovely stone wall and a peaceful graveyard. And Julia sent pictures from Bennington Centre Cemetery, where Robert Frost's grave has his poem Stopping by woods on a snowy Evening, which ends the woods are lovely, dark and deep, but I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep and miles to go before I sleep. So thank you. Please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel. You can email me, send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so today's episode is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, Kobo's free, fast and easy self publishing platform favoured by independent authors all over the world. KWL was built by Authors for Authors and their mission is to help you reach digital readers wherever they are, however they want to read or listen. Because there are also audiobooks. Are you an indie author looking to boost your book's visibility? With Kobo Writing Life, you can access a suite of powerful promotional tools designed to help you reach more readers from percent off promotions and buy more save more sales to featured spots on Kobo's homepage. You can tailor your marketing efforts to suit your needs. Plus, with real time sales tracking you can see the impact of your promotions instantly. From a personal perspective. I log into KWL every couple of weeks and I apply for as many promotions as I can. Now of course many are rejected, over half are rejected, but those that are approved drive a good amount of sales. Now if you're not selling enough books on Kobo, you need to be applying for promotions and another tip is to have box sets and bundles available as they do really well with promotions. Sign up for Kobo Writing life [e-mail] kwl and take your book marketing to the next level. So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] TheCreativePen thanks to the 13 new patrons who've joined in the last week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on writing, craft and author business, as well as tutorials and demos on AI tools. Last week I posted an article about the importance of the artist's date. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, then come on over and join [e-mail] thecreativepenn that's P A T R E Right, let's get into the interview.

[Betsy Lerner]

Betsy Lerner is an award winning editor, literary agent and the author of fiction.

[Joanna Penn]

Non fiction and memoir.

[Betsy Lerner]

Her book for writers is the Forest for the An Editor's Advice to Writers. So welcome to the show Betsy.

Thank you so much.

Oh it's great to have you on. So first up, tell us a bit more about you and how you have managed to experience almost every aspect of publishing across your career.

Well, publishing was actually not my first dream. I went to NYU for film school my freshman year and I was quote unquote invited to leave after the first year and that was devastating. But I was not kicked out of school completely. I I finished and got my degree in English and then like most English majors, was at a complete loss of what to do and could not get a publishing job because I couldn't pass a typing test which was required back in 1982. So I did a stopgap and I worked in an investment bank for a couple of years in the library and then I got it together to apply to graduate school and I went for my MFA in poetry and at that time I interned at a literary agency and that was really my first bite into the publishing world and I absolutely loved it. I loved being around writers and books and book jackets and galleys and sort of all the accoutrement of the world. And so when I finished my mfa, I went into publishing and I climbed the editorial ladder as one does in the States. I'm not quite sure if it's the same in the uk, but you go from being an editorial assistant to an assistant editor, editor, senior editor, etc. And I really thrived and loved it very much but became an agent when I had my child and when, you know, pre pandemic there was no flexibility in the publishing houses, you couldn't even Work at home for a half a day, let alone remote work. So I. I eventually crossed over to agenting. So for. Really, for the flexibility of my time over these 40 years, I managed to write a few books every. Every few years or so. I think I. The writer in me was always sort of played second fiddle to the editor or agent in me, but it always sort of came out one way or another.

I love that. And you said how much you sort of found a home in publishing because you love books and all the things of being around books. And that's what I want people to remember. And, you know, there's always this stuff about, oh, this editor or this publishing house or this agent or whatever. People always want to moan. But we just all book people, right? We all love books. And that's why, despite all the ups and downs, we all want to be in this industry.

Absolutely. And there's in my mind, sort of this hierarchy where everybody wants to be the writer and then next best is the editor, and then next best is the marketing, publicity salesperson, and then also all the wonderful designers and illustrators and people who make book jackets. And so everybody is sort of all in it together. But I've often found that the people behind the scenes get very little credit. And I always, as an editor and even as an agent, always really loved and respected all the people all up and down the chain who contributed. And yes, all book people, big readers, moviegoers, pop culture people. Just. I've had a wonderful 40 years in the industry, even with all the ups and downs. And there are many downs.

Yeah, we'll come back to those. But you said there that one of the things you said was that everyone wants to be the writer. Like that's the first thing. And in the book you have this wonderful line. When I entered the business, I believed that writers were exalted beings. And that made me smile because I remember feeling like that I always was a reader and I thought I could never be a writer because they're so, so special.

[Joanna Penn]

And it stopped me, you know. So what can you say to people.

[Betsy Lerner]

Listening to encourage people, like, if they're still feeling the separation between what they think a writer is and the truth of it?

Well, the answer is very complex, but it's also very simple. You have to write. And there's so many people who say they want to be writers and dream of being writers and have stories inside them, et cetera, et cetera. But the fact is, is if you aren't actually writing, whatever form it takes, it's not going to happen because it's a craft and it takes a lot of time and practice. So I always tell people, do you write diaries? Do you keep notebooks? Are you writing blogs? Are you doing substack? What writing are you actually doing? And it doesn't all have to be prose. I wrote screenplays for years. I blogged for years and years. All of that was in the development of my voice and in my ability to storytell. And then of course, all the editing that I did, I really learned what goes into making a book. But the key thing is simply writing and understanding that all the writing you do is either in practice of the professional writing you might do, or it's just who you are and how you express yourself.

Well, it's interesting there because you talk there about you have to write and.

[Joanna Penn]

The different types of writings.

[Betsy Lerner]

But of course, you were 64 when you wrote first novel, and you've written obviously loads and loads of different things. But, but tell us about that because there's this idea that you have to be young and beautiful to do your debut novel, right? And the people who seem to get all the press are the young debut writers. So tell us a bit more about that experience.

Well, when I was in my 20s, if I could have published a book, I'm sure I would have. I just not have it together. And I went into publishing. Really again, as I said, sort of as a default here. I did have my MFA in poetry and many of my fellow poets were going off to write and teach. And I just didn't have access to any of those opportunities, nor did I think I would be particularly good at it. So fast forward, it was the pandemic. I did have more time on my hands. I had also just come through extremely traumatic time in my life. My. My niece and nephew were. Were killed by a drunk driver. Then my mom passed away and then my best friend committed suicide. And I think that those tragedies, which all happen in the space of four or five months, I was in some sort of shock. I was in deep grief. And I guess I wrote my way out of it because I just sat down one day, opened my laptop and wrote the first words of the book. Here are the ways I could start this story. And I wrote for seven months, four or five hours a day really, until my hands cramped and I just poured this book out of myself. I. I don't think that I just, you know, magic happened and I wrote a novel. I do think it is based on 40 years of keeping diaries, blogging, developing my voice Writing those screenplays really taught me how to write plots. So I think all the writing I did came together in this novel in my mid-60s. I was very fortunate that I was able to get it published. And I found a small publisher who was able to say instead of being a hot young debut novelist, I was an. I was a senior late bloomer and I had all this experience and they were able to make some. We were able to do about a bunch of publicity around that fact that I was a literary agent turned turned novelist. So. So my age sort of worked. Worked for me both in the experience of writing and the attention I was able to get.

Well, that's a great way to put it, but obviously those tragedies are awful and amazing that you managed to turn to write your way out of it, as you said, just for that. Is the book about a sort of surviving tragedy, or how did you find those things that happen to you emerge in the writing, or do you think it was just an entirely different thing? And you better tell us the title as well.

Well, the title is Shred Sisters and it's really a book about two sisters. And the older sister has bipolar illness and the younger sister is the narrator. It's coming of age and how she lived under the shadow of this very destructive and yet charismatic sister. So it doesn't seem. It doesn't involve the tragedies at all, at all, except for the fact that a number of people do die in the book. And it is a way, I guess, that I really coped with a lot of grief, but it's a separate story from that. But I feel that all of those events are deeply connected to my writing fiction for the first time.

Well, it's interesting because you've also written several memoirs, including Food and Loathing, which I saw that title and I was like, oh, my goodness, that is such a powerful title. All. And that's about disordered eating and the bridge ladies, about your mum. So you've clearly delved into these really personal things before, and this book, the Forest for the Trees, is also really personal. So how do you do that? Because, I mean, I. I do it now, but I know how hard it is for people to really put themselves out there in words. Fear of judgment is a big thing. So how did you get over that for your memoir and. And everything you write?

I think because I kept diaries from really, I think the age of 9 or 10. Daily diaries for my whole life. And then when I became interested in poetry, it was the confessional poets who really drew me in Sylvia Plath and Anne Sexton and Robert Lowell were among my favorite writers. So I've always been interested in first person writing, in intimate writing and confessional writing. And then as an editor. I really became known for working with authors on their memoirs. I worked on Prozac Nation by Elizabeth Wurtzel and Autobiography of a Face by Lucy Greeley. I eventually became the agent and editor for Patti Smith's Just Kids and all of her memoirs. It's really what I most love and gravitate towards. When I started to write the Forest for the Trees, I didn't see that as an entirely personal book writing in my Persona as an editor. And then when I did write Food and Loathing, I think I just felt that it was my time to write. I wanted to write my story and I felt bold. I, I didn't want to pull back, really. It was. If I was going to do it, I was going to do it. I. I guess is what I was thinking. Do I now sometimes regret some of the things I wrote in that book? Possibly. But I had a lot of bravado, I guess. I had worked on so many memoirs and I, I just thought I wanted to tell my story. So I was lucky that I had the chance to publish it.

It's so interesting. You keep saying that you've been lucky to publish or you were lucky to find a publisher. You've been in Publishing for 40 years and you're an agent. Like, how is it that somebody like you would even struggle to find a publisher?

Well, I guess it's more that my, my ego, my self esteem all come from being an editor and an agent. If you meet me on a plane and you say, what do you do? I'll say I'm a literary agent. I would never say I'm a writer. It doesn't matter how many books I would have published. It's just not where, it's not my identity. And I don't know why that is. I mean, it's a shame I should own it, but I, I still feel more comfortable behind the desk and I do feel very lucky. A lot of people in publishing write and want to be published and I just don't take it for granted. Yes, I had connections. I was able to find an agent more easily than someone who's not in the business. But still. Yeah, I, I still think it's a privilege to find people who are willing to actually pay you and work with you and put your work out there.

Interesting. Well then coming back to your work editing memoirs, if you have a writer who brings you a Manuscri and you're like, they have not let it all out. What do you do to encourage a writer to be more personal in their writing?

If I've accepted a book and I'm working with the person, we have an understanding that I would expect certain revisions from them and I would be very clear about what they would be. And that might include going deeper in certain parts and investigating certain questions that are left clearly unsaid. Were holes in the manuscript. I recently read a manuscript by a woman with a child with a disability, and she never described what the disability was yet. There was something very moving about the book. And I said to her, you've got to the reader, this can't be a question mark if you're going to write this book. So that was a very obvious one. But sometimes it's just more subtle. Sometimes you say too much, actually, and understatement can be more effective. It's. It's not necessarily saying more, it's just crafting. Memoirs are crafted. They propose to be the truth, but they're really a work of art, in my opinion. And the writing, the quality of the writing is what makes people invested and believe in the story that they're being given.

Well, in another aspect of the book, you say most writers have very little choice in what they write about. And you talk about. About the obsessions and themes returning and this finding your voice. And I remember finding this very difficult at the beginning of my career, like, what is this finding your voice? And so there might be people listening who feel that way. So how can writers identify these things?

That's such a good question. I think it's organic and it starts probably with what you gravitate towards as a reader. Reader. If you sit down to write science fiction, my guess is that you've read a ton of it as a kid and as a teenager. You've immersed yourself in that world. It's a world you love. It's a world that sparks your own imagination. I think I did a lot of personal writing because of how much I connected with books like the Bell Jar and Diary of Anne Frank and things like that when I was a girl. So I think your voice is part of the world that you immerse yourself in in. And becoming good at it really just takes a lot of practice and getting feedback and doing revisions and putting in the hours, putting in the hard work. But it's very unusual that somebody who's never read in a certain genre is suddenly going to be great at that genre, at least in my experience. People write out of the worlds that they know.

And then I guess with author voice. So this idea of creative confidence as well, like, so I'm pretty confident in what is my J.F. penn writing, which is my fiction and memoir brand. I know what is me, and I work with an editor, but she also knows me. Now I hear from people who work with editors, and there's a real line right between an editor trying to make your book better and an editor who you feel might be affecting your voice. So how can people listening ascertain where an editor would sit on that continuum and when an editor is a good fit?

I've had many editors, and I would say everybody has added something of value, but certainly there were people who also stymied me with their notes or even frightened me or put me off completely. I've had every experience. And then with my novel, I had the most wonderful editor who completely helped me. Me make the book better and actually really taught me how to be a better writer in the process, which is something that has stayed with me, you know, even beyond working on that book. It's very intimidating. If you're a new writer and your editor tells you something, you think you have to do it, and it takes a bit of spine to. To. To not do it. And then are you doing that at your own peril? Are you being defensive? Are you not really listening? Or is the advice bad? When you're a beginning writer, it's very difficult to parse all of that. It takes time and experience and even a little bit of luck to find the editor with whom you feel you're really a hand in glove in. In what you're doing. I think a lot of people do suffer at the hands of editors. And then of course, many people are extremely helped and everything in the middle.

Well, I think that's the point, is that it's not like the first editor you ever work with. That's it for the rest of your life. Yeah, you will. There are different editors in your life and the relationships will be different. A bit like our friendships or partners or whatever. So, yeah, I think you kind of touched on that. But I also was interested. You have a lot in. In this book, the Forest for the Trees Around Mindset. And I particularly like this line. The desire for success and the fear of failure run along a continuum. So talk about that from your own perspective. How have you balanced desire for success and the fear of failure?

I love that question. It's something I think about probably on A daily basis. I think that the act of writing, the desire to be, to. To be in your own mind, in your own sort of playground and, and the beautiful solitude of it all is really what the heart of writing is all about. But at the same time, I would say most people are writing even in a diary with the hope of being read. So they're very connected. When you read writers diaries, you can tell that they're not just writing for themselves. It's almost as if they have an audience mind. And so I think that when we're writing, it is about the desire to communicate, even though we really are writing alone and in many ways for, for ourselves. So the ego can get very tied up in that. There are some writers who are obsessed with success. I work with one writer who's a complete and total recluse and never reads her reviews and, and doesn't want to know anything besides just getting her contract and getting her book out there and does no publicity either, by the way, which makes it very difficult to publish her. But yeah, that's what I mean about the continuum. There are some people who are so blinded by the desire for success that their work almost seems to be secondary. Obviously the best is to find some balance between your discipline and love of writing and the outcome for any book that, that you create and, and how much energy you're going to put into that and how much the world is going to welcome it or not. Because as we know, so many books get published with no fanfare at all. And it's always just a very few every season that seem to get all the attention. So writers have to learn how to live with those outcomes and see if they're willing to, to keep going.

So how have your books gone in that way? Like have you hit the success as a writer? I mean, you said before that you didn't identify that way. Do you feel like you are a successful writer as well as an award winning editor and all the other things you are?

Yes, but I work very hard at it. And part of why I was so drawn to your podcast, in fact, is that I love marketing and I love publicity and I love, love figuring out how to get the work out there. And I've mostly done that for my clients and my authors. But when I have published my books, with each consecutive book, I've gotten better and bolder at doing the marketing. So with my, with this novel for instance, I pulled out all the stops. I did everything I humanly could. I even got on TikTok and, and befriended book influencers and I made fortune cookies with lines from the book inside and gave them out at readings. And I, I wrote hundreds of note cards to librarians and booksellers and people in the media that I had even the most tangential relationship with. But I've been helping my authors for all of these years try to get attention for their books in every imaginable way possible. And with Forest for the Trees. With my first book, I did write to a ton of writing conferences and MFA programs and offered to give talks and send free copies and, and do that sort of thing. And I am very proud of it because it's still in print all these years later and I still hear from people that it's helped them and that's so rewarding.

Wow, everyone's still reeling at your comment. I love marketing. So yeah, obviously you're full of ideas of different kinds of things, but. And then you also mentioned this writer before who's a recluse and doesn't do any marketing. So how can, can writers listening, like, change their attitude? How can people learn to love marketing like you do and be creative with it as you've obviously been?

Well, it's really difficult because most writers do enjoy their solitude and may not be the most social people going. And then some people just turn their nose up at marketing. People have such a strange idea of marketing and sales. In my mind, what it, all it boils down to is, is communicating and figuring out that one line pitch that can get people interested in your book and then just putting a lot of elbow grease into it. I, I often use the, the metaphor of if you were to open a store and you lovingly furnished it with all sorts of goods that you've handpicked and you've made the store so beautiful, but then all you did was put an open sign in the door. You know, nobody's really, maybe one or two people might walk in, but if you wanted a lot of customers, you'd have some outreach. So it's just outreach and it's, it is a different head. I mean, you have to be very sensitive to be a writer, but you also have to be sort of thick skinned to get out there and sell your book and market your book. But these days even the big publishers often don't do all that much and it really is up to the author if they want to get the word out. Another thing I often ask writers too is what are your goals? What do you want this book, this book to do for you? How many copies do you think you want to sell? Do you want to use it as a calling card to get a job or to get speaking engagements or do you have a political agenda? You know what, why are you writing this book? What do you want it to do in the world? And a lot of writers say, I hadn't thought about that. So I say, well, think about that and then let's make a plan that's commensurate with your goal.

Yeah, you mean, you said there that a lot of publishers don't even do much marketing for books anymore. And I, I think certainly in the self publishing, in the independent publishing side of things, I hear often people say, oh, I don't want to do any marketing, so I'll just get a traditional publisher and then they will do it all for me.

[Joanna Penn]

Right.

[Betsy Lerner]

Is that just not true anymore?

It's not true anymore. It's, it's not true at all. In fact, publishers these days, days are most drawn to authors who have come with a platform, either a large social media platform or an institutional platform, because that helps them sell their books. They've identified the market already and it's disheartening. I remember the first time I was agenting a book and the editor, before even asking, what is the title? Who was the author, what's it about? Said, what's their platform? And I was so taken aback. And then another time I heard an author, an editor. I was pitching a book and I heard clicking and I knew the editor was looking up the sales figures for the author rather than listening to my pitch about my passion for the book. And that's when I knew, and I'd say that was about 10 years ago. The landscape had completely shifted from content based material to platform based material.

Yeah. And I mean, I think people, even though we're all book people, like we said at the beginning, people still have to make money in a business. So I mean, I think it's important that we think about that, that sales side, even though, as you said, it's like a different head. But I do have to come back to Tick Tock because I did actually go and look at your Tick Tock channel because I have basically refused to do Tick Tock. I'm like, I do audio is what my main marketing channel and I do a of social media. But you were on Tik Tok. So tell us about that, why you decided to jump in and are you still like what do what kind of things do you do? And are you still doing it?

Yes, I'm still doing it. I love it. I went on out of curiosity because as I said, the landscape was changing. And as of about somewhere in the middle of COVID people started talking about how booktok was the only thing that moved the needle for selling books. Everybody saw the Colleen Hoover phenomenon and then romantasy and people started seeing. But I started to recognize that it wasn't just genre and romantasy, that literary books were also getting a big bump on booktok. And I just decided I have to see what, what this is that everyone's saying is moving the needle. Even as most people in publishing were not going on booktok at all or getting their marketing people excited about it. Just a couple of publishers were at the vanguard of the that. But in any case, I wanted to learn about it as an, as a literary agent to help my clients. But I also, because I had a novel coming out, I thought, well, maybe I can get some of these book influencers to talk about my book. So I got on the platform, I started learning about it and I started becoming part of the community by leaving comments on other book talkers videos and some dialogue started happening. And then I reached out to a bunch of book influencers and asked them if I could send my galley. And a lot of them said yes. And many of them posted about my book. So that was really exciting for me. Watching young people with tattoos and nose rings holding my little book up and saying why they liked it so much was fantastic. And I also thought maybe I can create some content. And I started to read little snippets from my diaries, from what my Twitter 20s. And I found very quickly that I had a. Could build an audience as well and that a lot of young people resonated with my diary entries and made them feel less alone in the world. Most of my entries are all about being someone in their 20s who's sad and lost and turns out there's still a lot of lost and said people in their 20s out there.

Yeah, I, I was so impressed with your videos. I feel thought I don't know and this is totally about me. This is not about anyone else but that I somehow have to do my hair and my makeup and I have to have like, I know it's not meant to be scripted, but I just to turn on a video and just start talking or share bits of your diary like you do and you have your face there and everything. You know, you're, you're there.

[Joanna Penn]

It's not just your diaries.

[Betsy Lerner]

So if people are worried like, like me, what would you say to people like me? Is it really worth it? Do People have to get over themselves.

Well, it's a great question. I. When I first started trying on Booktok, I refused to be on camera. And I was just posting all these. What I would say, these little literary tidbits of books that I liked or, I don't know, I was just messing around. And one of our clients who's big on Booktok, called me and said, you know, your. Your stuff is adorable, but you're not getting any traction, and you won't get any traction unless you get on camera. And I said, no way. No way. No way away. And about a month later, she said, I saw her somewhere. She said, so how are you doing on. On the platform? I said, oh, I'm not getting anywhere. And she said, are you going to get on camera or not? And I said, oh, I don't think so. And she explained to me how my posts were all random and that to get any traction, you have to pick a lane and do something that people know you for and sort of think of it as your own little TV show. And that's when I thought, all right, maybe I'll just try it. What the hell? By the way, nobody I know is on TikTok, so I have nothing to be worried about. So that night I went home and I realized I have all these diaries. Maybe I can do this. And that first post that I did went viral, so that was very encouraging. And it's not to say that all the posts go viral. Many, many don't. But I have built an audience. I have over 30,000 followers, and my posts generally get a good, good reception. And then every now and then, one does go viral. And that's just. I find it extremely exciting. I'm a child, what can I say? I love attention.

I've.

I love the app, and I've made some very good friends. Even in real life. I've met some of these book talkers, and they're all young, and I just think they're fantastic.

I love that. And it's interesting because I got on Twitter as it was back then, in 2009, and for those first few years of being on Twitter, a lot of my friends in real life are people I met on Twitter back then, and I built a lot of my business on Twitter. So I feel like the. And then obviously that platform has. Has changed. And that almost feels like what you're talking about there with, with Tick Tock and Booktok. And so I love to hear that. And hopefully that will encourage people of different ages, because I always say to me, oh, it is only for people in their 20s and 30s, but there really is a lot of different ages and demographics now, aren't there?

Absolutely. And also, I'm a big science person. There's within. Within TikTok, there are many. There's everything under the sun, including STEM talk, and I watch a lot of scientists talk about their work. And I've even found some clients on TikTok, and we represent this incredible linguist called Etymology Nerd and sold his book. I'm working with an ornithologist who has a fantastic following and is a wonderful communicator. It's. I mean, yeah, there are a lot of cowboys dancing without their shirts on and kitten videos and all of that. That's all there. But if you have a real interest, you'll probably also find people making content either there or on YouTube or even on Instagram. Now people are doing videos. It's. It's. It is sort of the wild west. There's a lot out there, and it takes some time to figure out how to use the platform, but I'm really happy to hear that. To say that you found real friends through Twitter. I. I think people don't understand that these social networks are also about connecting. And the book talkers who I've become friends with are people who, if I'd met them at a party, I would have loved to have met them. Just because they're young and vibrant and. And they read tons of books and have tons of opinions. Yeah. And they're not just talking about their knee replacements and their mortgages and Medicare. You know, I really appreciate it.

I love that. And, I mean, you are really fun. And what I actually really enjoyed about your book is it's very voicey. I say voicey, but, you know, I could hear your. Your fun and your opinions, which I really like. I think, think that's great. And obviously people can check you out on TikTok, but I wanted to come back to publishing because in the book you say the cyclical nature of the publishing business, the brutality of the media and the vagaries of the marketplace are things that we all have to get used to. So I wondered if you could maybe give us a perspective on the changes in the publishing industry that are still happening, and in fact, even more so with AI and, like, how can author authors now navigate the industry?

Oh, that's such a big question. It's so difficult. The. At least in the. In the States, what the biggest problem is. When I entered publishing, there were about 40 publishers, and now it's they're called the big five. And it's all been conglomeratized and there are many imprints within each major publisher, but they all basically run the same way and have the same sort of mindset about publishers publishing. And people really want either the hot sexy debut author or the author with the big platform or the celebrity or the CEO. It's that, that's what the world really wants. And if you're a literary writer or a genre writer, you, you might have to make your way not looking at the big publishers in the beginning as you develop, develop your audience and grow as a writer. Getting published by a major publisher is not the end all and be all anymore. Obviously even somebody like Colleen Hoover started out by self publishing. There's a real path outside of, of traditional publishing. I, I still work within traditional publishing and I still am able to break writers in, but it's just much more difficult than it used to be. There's much more scrutiny before a book is acquired and, and authors just have to have a bigger platform or some real literary fairy dust that's been sprinkled on them either by other famous writers or an MFA program or publishing in a very high quality magazine. I would just say that you better really love writing because it's a long haul and it's very difficult to sustain a career. So it just has to be what you have to do. And I've always, always written part time. I've always had my day job and I think most writers have to survive by also doing other jobs unless you really break through. So you just have to understand that you're probably going to have to, to do other work to, to sustain yourself. But if writing is what you have to do, then you'll, you'll find a way.

And you said earlier every couple of years you end up writing another book, so you clearly can't help yourself.

Exactly. No, exactly. And listen, for all the books I've published, I have many unfinished notebooks, I have many projects that have never seen the light of day. I've got seven screenplays. If there are any producers listening, you know, I have an MFA of collection of poetry that will never see the light of day. And that's all fine because that's all of, right, that's all of what you do to develop as a writer. And that goes into, into the books that you do eventually publish. All of the unpublished work is to me, I'm as proud of that as I am of the published work. And more than that, it sustained me and kept me going because that's how I. That's really how I live.

Fantastic. So where can people find you and your books online?

Well, there's always Amazon of course, but I love to direct people to Bookshop which basically is also an online find. A bookseller that taps your local booksellers, which is fantastic. And also indie bound. And, and I'm on Tick Tock at Betsy Lerner and and I have my blog which is BetsyLearner.com and that's really a community of miserable writers coming to check in on the misery that I post now only maybe every few weeks, but I had posted for many, many years and that's all there in the archives archives for any any writing. Lonely Hearts. I have a wonderful community of malcontents who read my blog.

Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Betsy. That was great.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found the discussion with Betsy interesting and that you're inspired by her approach to marketing. It doesn't mean you have to get on TikTok, remember, but you do have to try something new every now and then them and of course keep writing and developing your craft as a writer. So let me know what you think of today's show. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes atthecreative pen.com or on the YouTube channel. You can comment on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepenn.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next week I'm talking to Mattie Dalrymple about how to pitch podcast podcasts and be a great podcast guest, which of course are a great potential part of your book marketing arsenal. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.