How To Pitch Podcasts And Be A Great Podcast Guest With Matty Dalrymple

Summary

Summary of "How To Pitch Podcasts And Be A Great Podcast Guest With Matty Dalrymple"

The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Matty Dalrymple and Mark Lefebvre
Release Date: June 23, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 815 of The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers, Joanna Penn engages in a comprehensive discussion with Matty Dalrymple, author and host of the Indie Author Podcast, and co-author Mark Lefebvre. The conversation centers on effective strategies for pitching to podcasts and excelling as a podcast guest, addressing common pitfalls and emphasizing the importance of building meaningful relationships with podcast hosts.

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The Role of Podcasting in Book Marketing

Joanna Penn initiates the discussion by highlighting the enduring value of podcasting in the literary world, especially amidst the rise of short-form video platforms like TikTok and BookTok. Matty Dalrymple emphasizes that podcasts offer a unique opportunity for deeper connection compared to the fleeting engagement typical of social media.

Matty Dalrymple [18:23]:
"The strength of podcasts is the depth of the connections you can form... you have 30 minutes to dive into your topic in depth."

This depth allows authors to share substantive aspects of their work and personal experiences, fostering a stronger bond with listeners that can translate into loyal readership.

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Translating Podcast Appearances into Book Sales

A key focus of the conversation revolves around how podcast appearances can drive book sales. Matty underscores the importance of approaching podcast interviews with a service-oriented mindset rather than a sales-driven one.

Matty Dalrymple [20:14]:
"If you go into a podcast interview with the mindset that you're looking to get book sales, it's not going to be as effective... as if you go in to provide value to the host and the listeners, many other benefits, including book sales, will follow."

By offering valuable insights and engaging content, authors can naturally pique listeners' interest in their books, leading to increased sales without overt self-promotion.

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Advice for Fiction Authors

Mark Lefebvre acknowledges that fiction authors might find it more challenging to pitch podcasts compared to non-fiction writers. He advises focusing on the unique aspects of their writing process, character development, and research to create engaging interview topics that resonate with podcast audiences.

Mark Lefebvre [21:50]:
"Fiction readers love to hear about the research you put into your book, or are your characters based on real people... it can make for an interesting and engaging interview."

This approach allows fiction authors to showcase the depth and creativity behind their work, making their pitches more appealing to podcast hosts.

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Successful Podcast Pitching Strategies

The trio delves into actionable tips for crafting successful podcast pitches:

1. Provide Value: Emphasize how your appearance will benefit the podcast’s audience.

   Mark Lefebvre [25:20]:
   "Emphasizing how the topic will help the host and be interesting to the audience is crucial."

2. Personalize Your Pitch: Demonstrate familiarity with the podcast by referencing specific episodes or themes.

3. Be Flexible: Offer multiple angles or topics to discuss, allowing the host to choose what fits best with their show's narrative.

4. Avoid Generic Pitches: Steer clear of broad, impersonal pitches that do not address the specific podcast’s focus.

   Matty Dalrymple [27:16]:
   "Copy and paste pitches that reference unrelated topics make you deletable."

5. Include a Demo: Provide links to previous interviews or a demo reel to showcase your ability to engage effectively as a guest.

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Building and Nurturing Relationships with Podcast Hosts

Matty and Mark stress the importance of building authentic relationships with podcast hosts beyond mere transactional interactions. They advocate for genuine connections that can lead to long-term collaborations and mutual support.

Mark Lefebvre [49:16]:
"Understanding where your audience and interests overlap can open up fantastic opportunities for podcast appearances and other collaborations."

They highlight that nurturing these relationships can lead to future opportunities, such as co-authoring books or cooperative marketing efforts, thereby extending the benefits of a single podcast appearance.

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Overcoming Challenges in Podcast Interviews

The discussion also addresses common challenges faced by podcast guests, such as nervousness or lack of experience. Mark suggests practicing with friends and familiarizing oneself with the podcast’s format to build confidence.

Mark Lefebvre [38:13]:
"Find someone to sit down with and practice answering potential interview questions. Observing their reactions can help refine your responses."

Matty adds that thorough preparation, including researching the host and the podcast’s style, can significantly enhance the quality of the interview.

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Reasons to Continue Podcasting and Starting New Podcasts

When asked why they persist in podcasting, both Matty and Mark cite the invaluable connections and the continuous learning opportunities it provides. They encourage new podcasters to pursue topics they are passionate about, emphasizing that authentic enthusiasm can resonate deeply with audiences.

Matty Dalrymple [52:16]:
"My podcasts have directly contributed to writing my memoir and shaping my upcoming books. They’re not just promotional tools but integral parts of my creative process."

Mark Lefebvre [54:17]:
"Podcasting offers learning opportunities, community building, and the chance to collaborate with other authors, which are all compelling reasons to keep it going."

For those considering starting a podcast, the advice is to focus on genuine interests and to ensure that the content aligns with the passions of both the host and the intended audience.

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Conclusion

Joanna Penn wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of thoughtful podcast pitching and being a valuable guest. She encourages listeners to implement the strategies discussed to enhance their podcast appearances and ultimately their book marketing efforts.

Joanna Penn [56:00]:
"Check out Matty’s and Mark’s resources, apply these tips, and watch your podcast appearances become powerful tools in your authorial toolkit."

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Notable Quotes

• Matty Dalrymple [18:23]:
  "The strength of podcasts is the depth of the connections you can form... you have 30 minutes to dive into your topic in depth."

• Matty Dalrymple [20:14]:
  "If you go into a podcast interview with the mindset that you're looking to get book sales, it's not going to be as effective..."

• Mark Lefebvre [25:20]:
  "Emphasizing how the topic will help the host and be interesting to the audience is crucial."

• Matty Dalrymple [27:16]:
  "Copy and paste pitches that reference unrelated topics make you deletable."

• Mark Lefebvre [38:13]:
  "Find someone to sit down with and practice answering potential interview questions."

• Matty Dalrymple [52:16]:
  "My podcasts have directly contributed to writing my memoir and shaping my upcoming books."

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as an invaluable guide for authors aiming to leverage podcast appearances for marketing and personal branding. By focusing on delivering value, personalizing pitches, and building authentic relationships, authors can maximize the benefits of their podcast engagements.

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 815 of the podcast and it is Saturday 21st June 2025 as I record this and it's very hot here in the UK and of course we don't have aircon. So yeah, it's a hot, hot day. In today's show I'm talking to Mattie Dalrymple, author and host of the Indie Author podcast about how to pitch for podcast interviews and be a great podcast guest. We get into the mistakes people make in on shows as well as how to be more successful, how to build relationships, and why we're both still podcasting after many years online. So that's coming up in the interview.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Section.

[Joanna Penn]

In Writing and Publishing Things. Well, my favourite nature writer, Robert McFarlane is on the How I Write podcast and one of my favourite books ever is Robert's Underland. I have it in every format and I listen to the audiobook when I feel the need to sink deeper in into myself and get some perspective. His writing is beautiful. Some of his books you read and you think, I want to be a better writer, but could I ever be that good? So it's really great to hear his tips on writing and one of them is you must cultivate wonder. And in fact, he says wonder is an essential survival skill. Stopping to look at a rainbow, for example, becoming more like children and noticing things in more detail and then wondering about them. He talks about how his most profound projects often begin with seemingly straightforward questions that serve as entry points into his vast, complex subjects, revealing layers of mystery and insight. And in fact, a question inspired his latest book called Is a River Alive? And it's actually this kind of awe and wonder that is behind my Gothic Cathedral book, which is obviously ongoing and I'm reading a lot about that. When we feel these things, why we feel these things. I'm also encouraged by Robert's note taking process. He takes messy, fragmented notes when in the field, focusing on capturing immediate subjective perception. The bits and bobs and the fluff and the pebbles and the feathers, without worrying about continuity or processing. The fragments serve as powerful memory triggers later. That's exactly how I do it. I just take sort of one liners, one words, just thoughts, fragments. And I put them all usually in my phone when I'm out and then write them up later. Robert says, when writing about ephemeral or dynamic subjects like light or water, don't attempt to capture them literally. Instead lean into literary devices like metaphor and focus on representing your subjective perception rather than objective reality. And yeah, this is very much the sort of you need to focus on you and how you feel. His books are definitely sort of part memoir, part non fiction nature. I really do recommend them. If you haven't read any of his stuff, it is fantastic. He also says master rhythm, sound patterns and punctuation. These elements are crucial, especially in non fiction for engaging the reader's mind's ear. And obviously which is why I enjoy the audiobook as well because it works in audio convey meaning beyond mere propositions and then this is brilliant. Punctuation like the EM dash can introduce liquidity and multi directional flow to sentences. So I love that last part, the EM dash. Going to come back to that in a minute. If you want the whole interview, check out the How I Write podcast wherever you're listening to this and it is Robert McFarlane his book is a River Alive or as I said, I recommend Underland. So returning to the EM Dash, if you've been listening in recent months, you will know of the controversy over the EM dash and Grammar Girl. Mignon Fogarty did a podcast episode this week and it's her episode 1091 yes, she's ahead of Me is on Are EM Dashes really a sign of AI writing Now I love this deep dive into it because those of us who use EM dashes, which is pretty much anyone who writes a lot of books, is annoyed that this has become an accusation of AI writing. If any of those people actually read a book from before 2022, they might see that it is a useful and well used form of punctuation. Mignon says it's driving me crazy. I am so annoyed that I had to drop everything and crash this piece into the editorial schedule because EM dashes are definitely not a sign of AI writing. And she delves into why this happened. And apparently the accusation stems from a Gen Z fashion and beauty podcast which called it a longer D, which makes sense because no real writer would have used this as an accusation. And Mignon says you absolutely shouldn't trust me for makeup or pop culture advice and you shouldn't trust them for punctuation advice. She thinks this is blown up as there has been so much social media attention over it and people arguing in comments so the algorithms have amplified it instead of it dying out. And of course she's feeding it again and I'm feeding it again with this because it makes us so annoyed. She goes into some of the things that might be signs of AI writing, but I have to tell you, the people who are seriously using AI for writing know all these things and edit it all out. Or they train models in their voices and and also if you put the Bible into an AI detector, it will say it's AI writing as there's so much of it in the training data. The detectors are useless, so accusations are pointless and a waste of time. Focus on writing your books, making them the best they can be, and use EM dashes if you I certainly do. I should also add that Mignon Fogarty's Grammar Girl podcast started even before my show and she has, as I mentioned, over a thousand episodes. Have a listen. If you geek out on language and punctuation things, that's the Grammar Girl podcast. In publishing things, Mark Leslie Lefebvre, who co wrote the book on podcasting that Mattie is talking about today in the interview, also has a book called Publishing Pitfalls for Authors, and he shares an excerpt from it on his Stark Reflections podcast week. Some of the Manage your writing and release pace sustainably. Understand that while some authors with more books on the market may tend to earn a larger income, success in publishing is a marathon, not a sprint. Avoid aggressive, rapid release schedules unless you can sustain them long term as inconsistency sets readers up for disappointment. He also says avoid follow the pack mentality in trends. Don't blindly chase popular publishing trends like specific genres that are currently hot and publishers often look one to three years into the future for new trends, and by the time you're mimicking a current success, it's likely too late to catch the wave. He also talks about predators in the publishing industry and Mark is pretty blunt about this. He says be aware that the publishing industry contains ruthless, heartless and vampiric predators who not only extract money from authors but also damage their hope and creativity. Knowledge is your only defence against their stealthy methods. Ah, don't pull any punches, Mark. And on that, make sure you check out WriterBeware Blog, which is fantastic and lists a lot of the scams that go on. And if you're going to use a paid service for publishing or marketing or anything in the writing business, check out the alliance of Independent Authors list of services. And ideally use services that are partner members of Ally as they will have been vetted and approved by a team of indie authors. You can read more in Mark's book publishing pitfalls for authors in all the usual places and have a listen to the episode on his Stark Reflections podcast in AI Things. Midjourney launched their video creation this week and it is so much fun and very easy to use. So much so that I immediately cancelled my Runway ML subscription, which is what I've been using for book trailers in the past. Runway is excellent, but I've been a Midjourney fan for ages and use it for images and things and book covers and so yeah, I immediately jumped in there and what's great is you can. You can go to an image you've already made and just click Animate and it will make four little videos automatically. Or you can also direct it more carefully. You can also upload a book cover or other images and turn those into videos. I've got some really cool ones. I did a video for my patrons on it as I'm playing with it a lot and animated a couple of covers and I will be doing a lot more of those and also using it for book trailers. And yes, I know Disney is suing Midjourney, but these AI cases take years to work through and everyone is suing everyone at this point and there is no movement on anything as far as I can see right now. And perhaps Disney wants to buy Midjourney as it is so good. We shall see. As ever, if you use any AI tools, do not use any brand names or author names or artist names or any other other IP basically in your prompt. You don't, you don't have to use those types of things in your prompt. So to avoid any plagiarism on output, do not prompt with anything to do with any Disney properties or anyone's properties. Just use your own imagination. So that's [e-mail] In personal news, I finished a short story this week. It's called Between Two Breaths and it is based on something that happened to me back in 2001 when I was diving at the Poornites Islands in New Zealand and has pretty personal author's note. But of course it is a fictionalized story based at a real place. It is with Kristen, my editor now and it will be part of the short story collection which will be my next Kickstarter. So it will be exclusive to that collection for at least until middle of next year probably. And here's a little tip. ChatGPT so good for titles you can try Claude and Gemini as well I had a working title, but then I uploaded the finished story and asked for 20 possible titles and it came up with lots of them. But I love Between Two Breaths. It is perfect and obviously I can't explain why it's perfect because of the story. I want you to read the story, but it is much better than my working title. And yeah, so that's exciting. And I also loaded everything, all the stories up that are going in the collection and it came up with a fantastic title which I can't remember if I've told you, but I will be revealing it soon. The Kickstarter pre launch page will be up soon. I'm going to do that probably, probably in September. But what's nice, I think about the short story collection is of course I've been writing short stories now for more than a decade and I don't write a lot of them.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Maybe a couple a year.

[Joanna Penn]

And some of them are in print, but most of them are not. So this, this feels like a book that means a lot over years. And each of each story has an author's note. Every single story has personal meaning. So I think it will be a really good project. I'm really loving putting it together. I do need to write one more exclusive short story which will probably be around the black church in Iceland that I visited in March and then I will get into it. I've just working with Jane, my cover designer, on the COVID and again I've been working with Midjourney on that for the images. And yeah, I'm loving this project. It's really interesting. I've never done a collection before, so thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week. Mark says in Bremen today and visited the Blykeller. It's under a church and bodies interred there were remarkably preserved. The first paragraph of the sign on the wall reminded us of something you would like. Life is finite. Also we will once die. I quite like that translation. Also we will once die. I quite like the the way the tenses work there. That's fantastic. Thank you for that. Mark and Adam sent a picture of the sea and the beach saying, I listen as I do my daily walk along the beach here in Kilkee, County Clare in Ireland. So that is won. Okay, you can leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel or email me, send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation. So today's show is sponsored by Publisher Rocket which helps you with keyword and category research on Amazon which you need for your metadata when self publishing as well as generating lists of keywords for your Amazon ads. Now you can do this manually on Amazon but it takes a lot more time and you have to think of all the different permutations to search for. I found that Publisher Rocket saves me time and frustration so I use it for every book and in fact I used it just this week to update my keywords on how to write a novel because I'm doing some Amazon ads on that at the moment and you can use it for any genre, fiction and non fiction and multiple different stores. You can use it to find keywords that readers actually type into Amazon search and see how many searches per month and the competitor analysis. You can also use the reverse ASIN feature so put in the ASIN of another book and see what keywords they are using. Plus you can discover best selling book categories and niche categories which you can use to write to market if that is your thing. You can also search separately for us, UK and German stores for ebooks, audio or print and in English or German. It is super useful and quick so you can get back to writing. It is a one time payment and you get 30 days money back guarantee. You can start researching keywords, categories and competition right away. There are handy tutorials to help but I find it pretty intuitive to use. I bought it years ago and I still use it for every book Publisher Rocket is one of my must use tools as part of my publishing process and it is very reasonably priced. Check it [e-mail] that's publisherrocket.com so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] TheCreativePen thanks to the five new patrons who've joined us in the last week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community you get access to all my backlist videos and audios covering topics on writing, craft and author business as well as tutorials and demos on AI tools. Last week as I mentioned, I did a video on how to use Midjourney for videos and put it out on pretty much the day after it came out. I was so excited to share. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you Want more? Come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Mattie Dalrymple is the author of mysteries, thrillers and nonfiction and is the host of the Indie Author Podcast. Today we're talking about her new book, co written with Mark Lefebvre, the podcast Guest playbook, Turning Conversations, Connections and Community. So welcome back to the show, Mattie.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Thank you. It is lovely to be here.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yes, I know. And I thought Mattie's been on the show before. I need to check when it was. It was in 2020, which is obviously like a life away now because it was the beginning of the pandemic. It's like a completely different life. But you did talk a bit then about how you got into writing. But give us an update. What does your author life and business look like now?

[Mark Lefebvre]

Well, I think this was true, had just become true in 2020 that I'm a full time author, podcaster, publisher. And since then I've continued to add to my two fiction series, the Anne Guinier suspense novels and the Lizzie Ballard thrillers. And I've also been working hard on my nonfiction books for authors. So since then we're going to be talking about my new book with Mark. We had been talking back then about taking the shore tack, which is the first book I co authored with Mark. And since then I have also co authored two books with our mutual friend Michael Aran on being an author speaker and on, appropriately enough, co authoring nonfiction. So yeah, continuing to add to the portfolio.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

And of course you've got the podcast. And also you're an advisor for the alliance of Independent Authors, right?

[Mark Lefebvre]

That's right. I'm the campaigns manager. So I'm responsible for Ally's four campaigns, which are open up to indie authors, ethical self publishing, self publishing for all, and publishing for profit. And so that has been super fun. I've been doing that since, well, just over a year now.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Fantastic. So, yes, multiple strings to your bow. But let's get into the book. So I guess the first thing is, are podcasts even useful for book marketing in an age of short form video? I mean, we're all told that it's all about TikTok and BookTok and social media. And you know, what is special about podcasting that makes it worth investing time in?

[Mark Lefebvre]

Well, I think that the strength of podcasts is the depth of the connections you can form. And so I have to say I'M not super familiar with BookTok. When TikTok first came out, I spent like 35 seconds on it and I found it so, not for me, that it was clear that not only was I not going to be providing content for TikTok or BookTok, but I probably wasn't going to be consuming that content either. So I think that obviously some authors are getting great connections on book talk, but it doesn't feel like a deep relationship. It feels more like entertainment. And I think that the strength of podcasts is that you do have a chunk of time. You know, you have 30 minutes or 45 minutes or an hour or whatever amount of time the episode is to dive into your topic in depth, to describe your book, but more importantly, the stories behind your book in depth. And then the benefit that those other platforms don't have at all is the benefits that come from forming a relationship with the podcast host, which is something that Mark and I spend quite a bit of time discussing in the book. I think that's kind of an underutilized benefit of podcasting.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah, A few things that, I mean, the in depth conversation, I think if people. Well, people listening to this are people who listen to podcasts.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yeah.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

So that is the kind of audience. But you're right, I mean, it gives people time to decide whether they even identify with this person in a deeper way. And I get so many of my book recommendations from podcasts, and I think, well, that that was interesting. I'll go and listen to their book or. Or read their book. So, I mean, you obviously interview people all the time for your show and you're also a listener to shows. How does podcasting translate into book sales? Since that is an important reason for.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Is letting people know about it. Letting people know about a book or a new book, whatever that might be. But I think more importantly, it's about letting listeners know about you as an author. And the advice that Mark and I give very strongly is that if you go into a podcast interview with the mindset that what I'm looking to get out of this is book sales, it's not going to be as effective, even for book sales, as if you go into it with the opinion that I'm here to provide value to the host and to the host's listeners, and then book sales and many other benefits are going to come from that. You intrigue people about your book by talking about it in a thoughtful and in depth way, by sharing information. You know, if you're writing nonfiction, you want to get the word out about that I have learned this from you, that you can share lots and lots of information from your nonfiction book on podcasts, and people will still buy your book because they want it. They want it in even more depth than you can provide in a podcast interview. They want it there for easy reference. They want it as an acknowledgement of the value you've provided. So going into that with that service mindset rather than sales mindset, I think is the most important thing for getting sales.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah, I totally agree with you and we're going to come back on that, but just with fiction as well, because you're a fiction writer. Both of us do fiction and non fiction. But I do think it is harder for fiction authors to find appropriate podcasts to pitch and to talk in a sort of different angles. So what's your advice to fiction authors who might feel like it's not so worthwhile?

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yeah, I agree that it is more of a challenge for fiction authors. I think the thing to keep in mind for those authors is first of all to find the podcasts that are focused on your genre. And so I think certain genres are easier for that. So I write in the kind of general crime fiction genre. There are a number of podcasts that are focused on that or that are specifically targeted to crime fiction readers. I think that there are probably other genres where there isn't maybe that same breadth of availability of podcast focused on reaching readers of those genres. But I think in all those cases, the thing to do after you've identified the target podcasts is to think of the stories behind the story that you can tell. So we don't recommend that you go into an interview with the idea that you're going to share a summary of the plot of your book that's just not going to be interesting to anyone. And that may deter people from buying the book if they've heard what they think is the whole story and they think, well, now, I don't really need to delve into it in more detail, but readers love to hear about the fiction process. And so fiction readers love to hear about the research you put into your book, or are your characters based on real people? Or even if you can come up with interesting answers to the where do you get your ideas? Question, that can be great fodder for these conversations. So thinking of those things as what would you chat about if you met a reader who loved the same genre that you write in and you were just talking about books in that area in general, you might in your podcast interview, not even focus on your own book. You and the host might get into a really interesting conversation about. About other books in your genre. And listeners will think, oh, that person had such an interesting take on horror or on thriller or on romance or whatever it is. Now I want to see what their take is in their own book. So I think there are lots of angles that fiction writers can take that make for an interesting and engaging interview.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah, and for me, it's about place. You know, I have my books and travel podcast as well. And in fact, as this goes out, the episode that should be up is on cruise ships. And this mystery author, Wendy Nugent, writes cozy mysteries set on cruise ships.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Oh, that's fantastic.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah, exactly. And she, she was an entertainer on cruise ships. And so we have an episode all about being on cruise ships and cruise ship life and all of this. But actually she writes cosy mystery, so some percentage of that audience will go on and have a look at her books. But it is that tangential thought. And I mean, we'll come on, let's come on to pitching. But of course, Wendy pitched me on books and travel and said, my books are set around cruise ships. We could talk about that. And I'm like, yes, that is interesting.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yeah.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Which was a much better pitch, actually, than maybe pitching me on this show to talk about cosy mystery, because I've done that before and there's lots of episodes on that. So I think it's. It's kind of thinking tangentially, what are the themes? Like, you mentioned characters. What are the topics that you have in your fiction book that might be appropriate for another different podcast?

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yes, and I can imagine that a very successful pitch for that, for the books and travel podcast would be, here is an aspect of travel that maybe you haven't hit before. And I think that your listeners would really be interested in this. You know, some listeners are going to have been on cruises and will be intrigued for that reason. Some of your listeners will not have been on cruises and are probably equally intrigued for different reasons. And so emphasizing that way of, how is this topic going to help you as the host? How is this topic going to be interesting to your audience?

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yes, exactly. And you mentioned it before, providing value to the host and the listeners. In the end, it's not about you, the guest, even though it is about you, it is not about you. It is about giving value. So let's. Well, let's talk about that then. What are some other tips for pitches that will land an interview and make the host want to talk to you when you just as soon as that email arrives, you know, made me go, yes, I want Wendy on my show.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yeah. In addition to emphasizing the value you provide, I think that the other key aspect of a successful pitch is making sure that it's clear that you understand the podcast you're pitching, that this is not a generic pitch, that you're sending the pitch and you're describing the value based on what is obviously experience with that podcast. So knowing that your listeners are interested in travel, I have an interesting spin on travel that I can share with them. Or I think this would be a great follow up to a previous episode where you talked about the Caribbean or something like that. I cruised to the Caribbean and I think this would be a nice companion episode. Sometimes I'll get pitches. As listeners of the Indie Author Podcast will know, I love the nautical metaphor for the writing craft and the publishing voyage. And every once in a while, I'll get a pitch that is completely based on a nautical metaphor that is instantly attention getting to me. And so I think that combination of providing value and then demonstrating your familiarity with the podcast you're pitching is important. Like, no generic dear sir or madam kind of pitches. Oh, dear podcaster, dear podcaster. Or even worse, when it's personalized. Wrong. I got a pitch for the Career Author podcast once and I was like, that sounds fascinating, but that's not my podcast.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah, that's not for me. And actually, I think some of the biggest sort of bad pictures at the moment are traditional publishing. I don't know about you, but I just get these. They're literally. I mean, they get my name right, but then they just copy and paste, like a press release.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yes.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

And say, you would love to interview this author, copy and paste, press release, and that's it. I mean, they're not even really pitching for a podcast. They're just scatter gunning, aren't they? So what are the other things? What are some of the things that people should find out about the host before they email?

[Mark Lefebvre]

Well, one thing I wanted to mention because you had mentioned, like getting pitches from publishers or PR firms. I get a lot of pitches from PR firms and people are always really interested to hear that. I actually set a higher bar for inviting a guest on the podcast if I'm being pitched by a third party, because it makes it very difficult for me to really get a sense of who the person is. And so I also feel as if, as you're saying, third parties don't necessarily always have the same incentive or ability to communicate the essence of the person. They're representing as the person does themselves. And so I think sometimes people who are thinking about pursuing podcast appearances think, oh, it's going to look much more professional if I have a PR firm or I have my assistant approach them or something like that. For me, that's not true. Hearing from the person directly is more attractive to me. And I think some of the other things to do or to not do are to to be very flexible about what you're asking. So I know a lot of people, so I can encapsulate many of the aspects of an unsuccessful pitch easily if the pitch is, I have a new book. Can I come on your podcast and talk about it?

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah.

[Mark Lefebvre]

So that's just wrong in so many ways. First of all, it's not that kind of podcast. My podcast is not that kind of podcast. My podcast is specifically with guests who have demonstrated expertise in an area of writing or publishing through writing a book about it or writing an article about it or speaking at a conference about it, and that they're demonstrating their expertise for books outside their own books. That's really the key for the indie author podcast. You can't come on just talking about your own book. You have to discuss what you've learned from your own experiences that can be generalized to my guests. And so the I have a new book, can I come talk about it? Is also not demonstrating any value for the people you're pitching. You know, you're only emphasizing what you're trying to get out of that and summarizing what I was just running through the idea of making it personal, as in making the contact direct, again, emphasizing the value, emphasizing the familiarity, emphasizing other episodes that you've heard from that podcast that you think would be good companions. I think that combination is the recipe for a successful pitch.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah. And I like having a few bullet points, maybe three to five bullet points, that show that there are multiple angles. So it can. You obviously can mention your book in the pitch. So, like, we know each other. But if you were pitching me, you'd say, I'm the author of the podcast guest playbook, and here are some topics we could cover. And I've definitely said yes to pitches like that because they've given me different angles that are potentially interesting rather than, as you say, like a generic, I've written a book. It's. You can say, I'm the author of this book, and these are the angles we could cover. I mean, you can pitch the podcast guest playbook on at all kinds of levels. You could pitch it to an Entrepreneur's podcast, because they're people who want to go on these shows and you can pitch it to professional speaking podcasts and all these. And. But on each one you would have different bullet points as to how that might apply to that particular podcast. I would also say on the referring to previous episodes, I think this has become a bit of a copy and paste hack that I get from so many now. Like, they will literally say, dear Joanna, I really enjoyed this, the episode on the podcast Guest Playbook with Mattie Dalrymple. And I think you would like this book on flower arranging. You know, like they've literally just chucked in the last episode without thinking about it. And it makes you read the first sentence and then you're like, oh, delete.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yeah, unless there's a legitimate connection.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, don't do that.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Where you're both illustrating. And the, the benefit of making a connection is if you're acknowledging, like, let's say you've had something about podcasting and I'm acknowledging that. I recognize that. And yet I feel like my topic is different enough. That's another way of acknowledging that. And I'm glad you also reminded me about the flexibility aspect. I think that idea of providing different options so that maybe a podcast host hasn't put out the episode that they've recorded on a certain topic, but it's very similar to yours. But if you give them a couple of options to choose from, just as you're saying, that's great. And then the other aspect of flexibility that I would mention is that a lot of authors want to have their podcast appearances grouped around a book launch. And first of all, I think that that's not always realistic because I know you, for example, record your episodes way in advance. I also have a backlog of episodes that I've recorded. There are a whole bunch of considerations for podcast hosts about how they order the podcast. So for example, I might have had a couple of episodes that are focused on publishing, and now I want to make sure that I get back to craft. And so I need the flexibility to do that. And so being insistent about when your episode airs is not good form. And I also think, just in general, that there is a benefit to not grouping a lot of podcast appearances around a book launch. Because the danger is that if I was pitching podcasts to promote one of my mystery novels, then I might, might pitch a bunch of mystery reader focused podcasts. And if I landed them all around the launch of the book, it's very likely that a lot of those listeners overlap and they may be hearing me on several podcasts in a short period of time. Now, if you have different aspects you can address about your book, if you have that selection of topics to choose from, then you can make sure that even if someone hears you on several podcasts, they're not hearing the same thing over and over again. But still, I think sometimes for podcast hosts, it's not appealing appealing to know that they're number four of seven appearances you have lined up. So I think you can really make a benefit out of what might initially seem to be a challenge by not trying to group your, all your appearances around a launch.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

I absolutely agree on that. Although it's a double edged sword, especially in these days with Kickstarter, because people do want things within a window. So maybe say to the host, this is my window. But again, as you say, like as we record this, my show's booked out for the next six months, month. So to say, well, you know, and I get all the time on my, my launches next week. I'm like, yeah, this just, this doesn't work. We put this in the calendar four months ago.

[Joanna Penn]

I think it was, it was ages ago.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

And you and Mark are friends of mine. We'll come back to friends in a minute. But I, I did also want to, let's be really brutal about it because, I mean, I got a pitch even this week that said, I'm still writing my first book and I come on your podcast to talk about writing and I was, I literally didn't know what to say to this person. So maybe, maybe you could give us some tough love. Mattie, why is that not a good pitch? And why maybe is that person not an expert enough for a show?

[Mark Lefebvre]

Well, first of all, they're clearly not conveying any value that you or your audience are going to get there. I suppose there could be podcasts out there that focus on early creators and what their experiences are. I can imagine a podcast, I don't know of it, but I can imagine a podcast where the host is more like offering advice to somebody early in their career and they're looking for guests who are willing to have that kind of conversation with them. Maybe. But obviously that's not the Creative Pen podcast. A lot of times podcasters, just as with agents, you know, a lot of times agents or editors will post in the traditional publishing world what they expect, accept. And so the advice is, if they say they are looking for thrillers and you've written a cozy, then don't pitch them because you're wasting your time. In there. Same thing with podcasts. If the host has posted what they're looking for, then don't pitch them if you don't meet that requirement. And even people who are representing well known organizations that clearly are coming on a podcast in order to encourage people to use their podcast products, need to be able to focus on providing that value. I'm going to use Damon Courtney of Book Funnel as an example. I've interviewed Damon for the Indie Author podcast. Obviously Damon has an understandable interest in educating people about Book Funnel, but we had a great conversation that never really mentioned Book Funnel until the very end when I gave him the opportunity to say, hey, Damon, you know, let people know about Book Funnel because he had great information to share about cross promotion. He had great information to share about how to get word out about your book. And I think everybody should follow Damon's example and say if you're providing that value, then people are going to come to the product or book you're hoping they will get to.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah, and Damon is a great example of a very entertaining and engaging speaker as well. Like he's got an interesting voice, he's very animated. So he brings a lot of personality as well. And I think that is important, isn't it? I think this is another thing that let's just give people some other tips is you do have to know what you're doing. And of course you are only a good interview for the host if you've done this before. So I won't give any names, but someone once did a wonderful pitch and I was like, this is a great pitch. Yep, come on the show. And then when we turned on the recording, it was very clear this person had never had never done an interview before. And they just, it was, it was so bad I had to stop the interview and say, look, I just think you need some more practice. Practice at this.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Interesting.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

And, but this is a really good topic. I'm really interested. How about you come back in six months. In the meantime, go practice and do some other interviews. So, and I don't want to sound like a dick here, but you and I, we've been doing this for a long time. There is a hierarchy of podcasts and there are brand new podcasts that maybe only have a couple of episodes and are new. And then there's long running podcasts, podcasts that have a bigger audience. So, so how can people sort of work their way up to bigger podcasts and also just get the experience so they feel more confident giving interviews on shows and then radio, tv, Is all the same.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yeah. One thing that this addresses the. Not the idea yet of getting better at that, but demonstrating you're already good, even if you don't have any podcast interviews under your belt. And the tip there I would share is that if you're starting to pitch podcasts and you don't have other interviews to point them to, which is great, like, that should be part of the pitch letter, you know, if you'd like to check out my previous appearances on other podcasts, please click these links. That's great because it demonstrates that the person is comfortable in an interview, that they do have their audio set up correctly, their video set up correctly, if that's being used. And I have. I did get one pitch. This was years ago from Jerry Richter, who writes as J.W. judge, and he sent me a video where it was his pitch personalized to me in video. And he said, hi, Maddie, I'm Jeremy Richter. I write as J.W. judge, and I would love to join you on the Indie Author podcast to talk about these things. And it was great because at that point, Jeremy didn't have any other interviews to point me to, but he was very clearly comfortable on camera. He had all that set up. He was engaging. I appreciated the time he had spent making this specific pitch for me. And so that idea of a demo reel can be very helpful. But if you're really uncomfortable, if you're just uncomfortable with the concept, I think there are a couple of things you can do. One is to be an enthusiastic podcast listener. So as with any kind of content, I think you are most successful doing it well, if you enjoy consuming the content before you start trying to create the content or participate in the content. And that can provide comfort, especially if you're becoming familiar with the specific podcasts that you want to pitch yourself to, because you'll understand sort of the rhythm of it, you'll understand the tone, you'll understand the gestalt of the podcast. I think there's certain expectations that podcast listeners develop about how a podcast interview works. And so comfort with the platform will breed comfort with the experience and practicing with people. You know, find someone that maybe you can sit down with over coffee and say, hey, here's some questions that I would love to be able to answer as a podcast guest. Let's chat through them and maybe do that a couple of times with a couple of different friends and refine your answers each time. And the great thing about that is you're sitting there right across the table from them, and you can kind of See, when do their eyes start to glaze over? When. When are they sitting forward and they're more engaged and you do less of the first thing and more the second thing. And I also think that podcasts, once you have done those preparatory steps, can be really nice because you're not in front of an audience. You're not obviously in front of an audience. Obviously, you hope that there will be an audience. But unlike maybe speaking in front of a group at your local library or at a book club, it can feel like you're just chatting with the host, especially if you have a proficient host who's good at making guests feel comfortable. And so it can be a good entree to other speaking engagements, to other ways of promoting your book.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

I just want to come on, comment on that video thing. Do not send me videos, anybody, because I literally never watch videos and will not watch. You know, when people send me a link to a video, I think it's a scam. So I don't do that. What I would say is author website. One of the first things I will do if someone pitches me is I will go and look at their author website. And it is amazing how many times I go there and something's broken or it's just not professional or. And you can have a, like a landing page, your author website name, forward slash media, or something like that. And you could put a video there. And then I can choose to watch that video on a website as opposed to through my email, which may well be some kind of scam. The other thing I was going to say is, I mean, I always have notes. So right now. And I always send questions before every interview. I think I. I very much expect people to send me questions as well. I think part of that's being an introvert. Introvert and need a lot of preparation before any interview. I do a lot of preparation. ChatGPT is very good for this. I will give people that tip. So if you say to ChatGPT something like, I'm going on Mattie Dalrymple's the Indie Author podcast, tell me about Mattie and some of her catchphrases and some of the things she likes and how does my book overlap with Mattie's interest? What are some of the things that her audience would like? That's a really good prompt. Prompt, yes, I think. But then just on the notes, I have notes as a host and then I have notes as a guest. But big, big tip. Do not read the notes.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yeah.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Do you do a lot of notes.

[Mark Lefebvre]

As well over time I've evolved to an approach where I communicate with the guest and we land on an overall topic. And then when I ask them to schedule, I use calendly for scheduling for the Indie Author Podcast. And one of the questions that's asked there is, provides five subtopics related to the general topic that we've discussed. And so they provide those. They provide the subtopics, and so they can prepare to those subtopics. And it just gives us some sort of points in the conversation. And generally I find that sufficient because I feel like with Indie Author Podcast as a host, I'm standing in for the listener. And so if Damon's coming on the podcast to talk about cross promotion, then by having sort of five guiding points for a conversation about cross promotion that I can ask him questions about, I feel like that's sufficient for my needs. But it's a great point that the more you can get insight into the preparation process of your host, then the more you can be serving them by making that process as easy for them as possible. And I would also say that Mark and I talk about the three Ps, politeness, professionalism, and prepare for, and the importance of these in your interactions with everybody but hosts that if they ask you to provide a link, a list of URLs for your social media sites, then don't just provide them with their handle, actually provide them with a link. If they want a bio that's 100 words, then don't send them 500, send them 100. Because, you know, every way that you don't comply with what they ask for, you're just making their lives a little harder. And I think that for many, many podcast hosts, this is a labor of love. You can't interact with them as if they were a service provider to you. You know, if you think about, like, hiring an editor, you and the editor have come to an agreement. You're paying the editor some amount of money, and for that you expect them to provide certain deliverables and certain dates and so on. You can't go into an interaction with a podcast host with that mindset because you really have to recognize they are doing you a favor. Even if they're getting benefits for themselves, they might have monetized their podcast, they might be earnings money. But my guess is that anyone who assigns value to their time, and I always recommend that people assign value to their time, very few podcast hosts are making money from this. They are doing this as a service.

[Joanna Penn]

To the community and even more.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

I mean, I do make money from this podcast, so it is part of my business. But I have been doing this for 16 years at least seven of those years it was not monetized. And I think also, as you say, we put our time into connecting with an audience and listeners come back to a show for the whole host. They might listen to a guest, but they come back for the host. And so the trust of our audience is what I value so highly, which is why I cannot bring somebody who doesn't bring value to the show. I'm not going to interview someone unless I'm like, that is going to help the audience. So we've obviously spent years building up trust with our audiences that they know what they're going to get when they listen to our show. So it's really important to us that the people we bring on on do bring value to the podcast. Now you mentioned Damon Courtney there from Book Funnel, who we've both met at events.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Hi, Damon.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Hi, Damon. If he's listening. But you and I met at Thriller Fest, like, I don't know, decade or so.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yeah, I think so.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Something like that. And so this is another tip and we mentioned friends before. Both of us have co written with Mark. Mark's a long term friend. And we also, we met on Twitter originally and then we met in person. So. So how can people make authentic, let's say authentic relationships at things like conferences that can possibly develop into things like this? Because it is much easier for you to say, I've got this book coming out, can I come on your show? Or for me to say can I come on your show? Than it is for a sort of blind pitch as such. So how can people do that authentically? Because the book does talk about connections especially.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Well. Yeah, I'm realizing that I think there's a connections aspect of every nonfiction book that I've written for authors. And this is so interesting to me that I think that my next book is going to be specifically on the connections that authors and other creatives can develop, certainly within the audience they want to reach, like readers or listeners or whoever that might be. But the real value of making those among your creative copies colleagues. And I think that there are just general tips that can lead to podcast appearances, but can lead to lots and lots of other benefits. And I'm going to go back again to the value. If you meet somebody at a conference and you're chatting with them and let's say they're a short fiction writer and you've been thinking about putting together an anthology of short fiction. Now this is something that you can offer them. I mean, you're going to be asking them for a contribution too. But the fact that you can give them this outlet for sharing their short fiction is something that you can offer them, even things like interactions on social media. You know, if when I got that video from Jeremy Richter where he sent me a link to the video pitching himself for the podcast, I had already met him. I can't remember anymore what the forum was in which I had met him, but I had had interactions with him so I could feel comfortable that it wasn't spam. But I'll see people who I recognize as being Patreon patrons or recognized as somebody who follows me on social media and comments. Comments in a productive way on my posts. And that just paves the way to good feelings about that. If I have a whole list of potential podcast guests I'm looking at and there's a name I recognize and I've already had a good experience with them, then that obviously paves the way to me wanting to say yes more than no to that pitch. So I think fully understanding where your audience and interests and the audience and interests of your colleagues, your creative colleagues overlap, can overlap, open up fantastic opportunities for podcast appearances and a whole lot of other things, whether that's co authored books or just a collaborative friend that you may be able to provide mutual benefit to. Yeah. I think that under understanding the audiences and understanding the value continues to be sort of the themes.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah. And just to come back on the authentic connection as. As we said, you and I met a decade ago and I had a podcast at the time, but I don't think you did. And we met. Met at Thrillerfest as thriller writers. That's how we met. There was no transactional thing going on like we met as peers at a writer conference. And so that's what I would say to people, go to conferences, meet people and make genuine relationships that you never know what they're going to turn into years later. But it's not a case of, oh, nice to meet you. Can I come on your podcast?

[Mark Lefebvre]

Right, right. And I think that that idea of not treating it as transactional is so important. And this is where I really think that even if you've gone through all the earlier processes of doing your research and finding the right podcasts and understanding the host and their audience and making your pitch and preparing for the interview and conducting the interview with all the best practices that are related to that, then I think what a lot of podcast guests do is they, you know, the record light goes up off or the light goes off and they kind of sit back and say, whew, glad that went well. Now I'm on to the next thing. And I think that that's a very transactional attitude to have toward that. And if that's all you, if that's where you feel like the transaction has ended, you're really under representing the benefit you can gain from it and the benefit you can provide there. And so doing those things to keep that relationship alive. Like if you are speaking on evergreen content and I'm guessing that many of your listeners, you know the books that they would want to let people know about are evergreen, then every six months, maybe repost on social media. Oh, you might want to go back and look at this conversation I had with Joe in 2020 about short fiction and make sure that, that you, you as the podcast host know that I'm doing that I'm continuing to point people to your work or I've had the experience that of listening to a podcast where the host mentions someone or the guest mentioned someone that I know in a really positive way and I'll drop a note to that person and say, hey, I just thought you'd be interested to know that at minute 20 this person had something really nice to say about you. Make sure I wanted to make sure you didn't miss that. So nurturing that relationship with a host, it pays you back way more than just that one transaction. Interview appearance.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Well, last question because we're almost out of time. So obviously you have your long running podcast, the indie author, your co author, Mark Lefebvre has his long running stark reflections and I obviously have this long running show. Now some people will say, oh well, you know, it's all right for you lot, but now it's too late to start your my show. But I've just rebooted my books and travel podcast and I think we need new voices voices more than ever. So why do you keep podcasting and any tips for those who want to start their own show and become the host themselves?

[Mark Lefebvre]

Yeah, well, I would first point people to my book, the Indie Author's Guide to Podcasting for Authors. And in terms so in that I walk through, what is really driving you to think about hosting a podcast? That could be a whole other conversation, but you want to make sure you think about through sort of what your goals are and if they're realistic before you venture into that. But the primary reason that I keep doing the indie Author Podcast is because those relationships I build up are so worthwhile for me, I mean, I met, I first met Mark because I was a listener to the Stark Reflections podcast. And an interaction that I had with him related to a topic he talked about on that podcast is what led to, to our first co authored book. It later led to me inviting Mark to be an advisor for Ally and bookstores and libraries. So I feel like that connection we built long ago through Mark's podcast has paid off. Mark has been a guest tons of time on my podcast. Dale Roberts has been a guest on my podcast a ton. And Dale's like my cheerleading squad. I need a little, a little boost. I send Dale a text and he cheerleads for me, which is great. Michael and I. Michael, Lauren and I have now co authored two books together. And that has been based on many appearances that Michael has made on my podcast. And just that idea that if I'm really interested in whatever the topic is, I'm developing a network of people that I can reach out to or I can look out at the broader audience and say, who's somebody that. Now I'm really starting to get serious about crowdfunding. Know who can I talk to? Oh, look, Russell Nolte, because I've interviewed him for, for the Ally podcast. And so I continue doing it because of the learning opportunities it offers me, because of the community building offers opportunities it offers me, and because I just feel good about paying it back to the community. And I feel as if, if I'm gaining these benefits for my guests, then I want to share those benefits with my listeners as well.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Yeah, I totally agree with you. And for my books and travel show, what, what I realized as I rebooted it is that it enabled me to write my memoir, Pilgrimage. And a lot of the episodes had helped me shape what that book became. And even though I didn't necessarily realize it at the time, it made a huge difference to me. And so one of my reasons for rebooting it again is because I've got a book that's gestating as on English Gothic cathedrals, and I've got another one on the sort of idea of home Home. And both of these, I know I am. I'm interviewing people whose books I'm reading as book research on that show. And I just, I'm. I'm so sure that it's going to help me to bring those books into the world. And of course, that show is not about the writing process or publishing or book marketing or any of that stuff. And so I want to make sure people know that those podcasts are also wonderful. Obviously you and I are both writers and we have writing podcasts and so does Mark. But there can be other podcasts too. So.

[Joanna Penn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

I mean, I would recommend people start shows on what are you really passionate about? Where other people are also passionate. Yes, you're a writer, but there's lots of things that intersect with that. So yes, exciting times. So where can people find you and your podcast and your books online?

[Mark Lefebvre]

Well, if they would like to listen to the Indie Author podcast that is indie with a Y I n D. If they'd like to find out more about all my nonfiction work, they can go to theindiauthor.com and if they would like to find out about my fiction work, they can go to mattydonnaple.com and that's Matty with a Y M a T T Y.

[Mattie Dalrymple]

Brilliant. Well, thanks for your time, Mattie. That was great.

[Mark Lefebvre]

Thanks so much Jo.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found the discussion with Mattie interesting and check out the book. If you want to pitch more effectively and be a good podcast guest. Let me know what you think of today's episode. Please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel or email me joannathecreativepenn.com send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Coming up this week, an in betweenisode on Tips for producing AI narrated audiobooks using ElevenLabs with Simon Patrick and then in an audiobook Double Whammy. Next week I'm talking to Jules Horn about writing for audio. So one slightly more technical episode and one more craft based episode around the same topic producing audiobooks. And in the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free author [e-mail] if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.