The Art And Business Of Literary Translation With Dani James

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Art And Business Of Literary Translation With Dani James

The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers, Episode #824
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Dani James
Aired: August 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the journey of Dani James—a writer and first-time translator—who translated Return to the Place I Never Left, a Holocaust memoir by Tobias Schiff, into English. The conversation explores both the emotional and practical aspects of literary translation, with insights into the personal motives driving such work, the creative challenges, and the complex legal and business processes required to bring translated works to new audiences. Through Dani’s story, listeners gain a behind-the-scenes look at the labor of love that is literary translation, as well as the business realities facing translators in today’s publishing landscape.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Dani’s Personal and Linguistic Background

• [21:23–24:14]
  • Dani is a writer based in New York City, raised in Antwerp, Belgium.
  • Fluent in several languages; educated in Flemish/Dutch.
  • Translating this memoir was her first experience as a literary translator.
  • Motivation stemmed from deep personal connection to the book, which she had reread many times over the years.
  • “I found a lot of joy in it. And I’ve actually learned a lot about how translation…can really enhance a creative practice in ways I wouldn’t have expected.” – Dani, [21:55]

2. Family & Cultural Connections to the Memoir

• [24:14–29:29]
  • Dani’s grandparents were Holocaust survivors; the Holocaust is an integral part of her family’s history.
  • Personal ties: Grew up in a Jewish community of survivors in Belgium; Tobias Schiff’s granddaughter was a childhood acquaintance.
  • Memoir’s setting (Antwerp) and subject matter resonated with Dani’s own lived experience.
  • The book is written in verse with direct, accessible language originating from a documentary interview.
  • Quote: “What stood out about Tobias Schiff’s book was the style…it’s written in verse…very direct language…he’s speaking to you as a friend…” – Dani, [27:00]

3. Complex Journey of the Original Manuscript

• [29:29–32:13]
  • Original memoir was derived from a French documentary interview, then published as transcripts in French.
  • Editors worked with Schiff to develop a Flemish/Dutch edition in the 1990s; later translated into French (2012) and republished in Flemish (2017).
  • Dani’s translation (2025) is the first English language version.

4. The Legal & Business Side of Translation

• [32:13–42:37]
  • Dani approached the estate/family for verbal permission before starting translation—formal rights not secured until later.
  • She shopped the completed manuscript to publishers before realizing the need for official rights agreements.
  • Advice: Legal counsel is crucial for managing rights, as translation is a subsidiary right (not just author/estate approval—also previous publisher, local laws, etc.).
  • Quote: “The best decision I had made...my lawyer had more experience...helped me navigate not just the publication deal with the publisher here...but also with the rights in Belgium.” – Dani, [38:13]
  • Challenges in cross-border rights: Required coordination between US and Belgian copyright law, formal bilingual contracts, and determining current rights holders.
  • All legal costs (and much of the process) were personally borne—a genuine labor of love.

5. Creative Challenges in Literary Translation

• [50:05–56:48]
  • Dani’s approach: Longhand literal translation as first draft; then iterative editing to balance loyalty to original and resonance with English readers.
  • The memoir’s poetic, sparse style prompted creative decisions about line breaks and emphasis.
  • On the nature of translation:
    • “No two translations are the same…when you read a translation...you are reading the product of two—the original author and the translator...” – Dani quoting Mark Polizotti, [53:30]
    • “A translated book [is] a sibling of the original, but not a twin.” – Dani quoting Katrin Ogard Jensen, [54:00]
  • Dani found the process unexpectedly generative for her own writing practice.

6. Publication and Marketing Experience

• [42:37–49:21]
  • First major publication for Dani beyond literary magazines/anthologies.
  • Published by Wayne State University Press—collaborative on design and marketing, but much of promotional effort fell to Dani.
  • Insights:
    • “The majority falls on the author or translator, in this case, themselves, to really push it out into the world.” – Dani, [46:39]
    • Video marketing: Dani created a book trailer with the help of a creative collaborator, finding value in the outsider editorial perspective.
  • Acknowledgment that such a labor may not yield significant financial return, but the deeper connections and personal fulfillment outweigh the economics.

7. AI-Assisted Translation: Dani’s Perspective

• [56:48–59:42]
  • Dani did not use AI for her translation; is cautious about relying on AI for literary texts due to nuance, word choice, and the intimacy of manual translation.
  • Sees possible utility for legal or formulaic texts, but literary work demands the translator’s direct creative engagement.

8. Future Creative Plans

• [59:42–62:20]
  • Open to future translation projects and has another Holocaust survivor memoir (shorter) to consider.
  • Currently focusing on an original English-language novel with lighter themes for creative change and personal balance.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Personal Motivation:
  “I just knew I wanted to translate the book. And so before I even got started, I asked the family for permission.”
  — Dani, [32:41]

• On the Translator’s Creative Role:
  “It means that you are reading the product of two—the original author and the translator, who has to read the text, interpret it, and regenerate it…”
  — Dani quoting Mark Polizotti, [53:30]

• On the Rights Process:
  “It was a complex process...I had no former knowledge of the process when I started...I had to formalize permission, find out who owned the rights...navigate Belgian copyright law.”
  — Dani, [36:47]

• On Marketing Reality:
  “The majority [of marketing] falls on the author or translator, in this case, themselves, to really push it out into the world.”
  — Dani, [46:39]

• On the Nature of Translation:
  “A translated book [is] a sibling of the original, but not a twin.”
  — Dani quoting Katrin Ogard Jensen, [54:00]

• Advice to Listeners:
  “It is important to get [rights] done before you start…if you hadn’t known them, they could have just said, ‘well no, you have the rights’ or they could have had an offer for an English translation as well and your work would have been wasted.”
  — Joanna, [40:33]

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Segment Timestamps Guide

| Segment | Timestamps | |------------------------------------|--------------| | Dani’s background & motivation | 21:22–24:14 | | Family ties to the memoir | 24:14–29:29 | | The memoir’s publishing journey | 29:29–32:13 | | Securing translation rights | 32:13–42:37 | | Publishing & marketing experience | 42:37–49:21 | | Translating as a creative act | 49:21–56:48 | | AI and literary translation | 56:48–59:42 | | Dani’s future creative plans | 59:42–62:20 | | Wrap-up and Dani’s contact info | 62:20–63:46 |

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Additional Resources

• Dani James’s Website: danijames.co
• Return to the Place I Never Left – available wherever books are sold online.
• Wayne State University Press – publisher of the new English translation.
• YouTube Book Trailer: (Link on Dani’s site via danijames.co)

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Tone & Language

The conversation is warm, thoughtful, and deeply personal. Dani shares practical, sometimes challenging realities with humility and candor. Joanna provides nuanced, industry-informed follow-up questions and contextualizes Dani’s journey for fellow writers, translating professional complexity into clear, supportive guidance.

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For Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for writers interested in translation, memoir, and the intersection of literary art and business. It will especially resonate with those navigating international publishing and anyone committed to bringing meaningful, lesser-known works to new audiences.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Creative Penn Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives. I'm Johanna Penn and this is episode number 824 of the podcast and it is Sunday 17th August 2025. As I record this in today's show, I'm talking to Danny James about the art and business of translating literary memoir. And this is really a story about a labour of love. When a Holocaust memoir resonated with Dani years ago, back when she lived in Belgium, she was determined to bring it to a wider audience in English. But she had never translated a book. And so began years of work slowly translating it and then also navigating the complexities of rights, licensing and then publishing. And I think it's just a wonderful story of passion and art and really gives an insight into the reasons why we work on these kinds of projects. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and Publishing and book Marketing Things. Well, first up, a really useful post about how to start dictating fiction on helping writers become authors, although of course it could be nonfiction as well. Dictation is one of those things that can help with RSI and also more healthy writing and moving around more as you can dictate as you walk. And with AI tools it's getting better and better and easier to use than ever. So the article goes through some myths like it will make you faster. I've definitely never found it faster. It's not a about being faster, it's not a race. It's more about a different process and perhaps this more healthy one. It does take some getting used to and you will pause to think a lot and your draft will be messy and that's all right. And it can be a great way to get your thoughts down and you can organise them later. Now, I've had lots of interviews on this show over the years about dictation and Kevin J. Anderson, I remember talks about dictation as just getting notes down at the beginning. It doesn't have to be finished sentences or finished chapters, although course it might be. It can just be your first thoughts on things. And this is how I pretty much use any kind of dictation now. I don't dictate finished sentences. If I'm out walking, I'll dictate thoughts and notes into my phone. And pretty much every app can take dictation or voice notes now. Or you just use. You can just use your email client often I'll just open Gmail and dictate something in there and that will transcribe it immediately. You can of course sort of dictate a just the audio and then transcribe it later. Now back to the article. It recommends embracing the discomfort and taking it as a way to create differently. And also don't obsess over fancy tools and headsets and things you used to need them, but really now it's just got so much easier. Just use whatever Notes app is on your phone. You can then copy and paste into your word processing tool of choice later. Now you can use AI for formatting as well. Back in the day you used to say open quote, close quote, new line, full stop or period or whatever and now you can just talk and then you paste it into Claude or Chat or Gemini and just say can you format this with correct punctuation? And it will do it also just say in your prompt don't change the text, no hallucinations, just reformat. But it will do all that. So that's really made it much simpler as well. So that's on helping writers become authors link in the Show Notes. And I added all that AI stuff by the way, that is not in the article but the article's super useful link in the Show Notes. There's also a great guide to payment splitting with Draft 2 Digital on their blog. Basically if you co write or if you do an anthology with royalties to other authors and you have to somehow split the money, right? Unless you've paid to license their work. Now this isn't usually a big deal right away as there's a bigger chunk of money that will come in in the initial promotional period. But then remember, you are tied together for the life of copyright, which is 50 to 70 years after you die. And what happens is those royalties are likely to be very small over time. If you publish with payment splitting, the money is automatically split so you don't have to manage the payments. Draft 2 Digital can do this for print and ebook, but not for audio, at least at the moment. So you have to manage separately. But it's a good idea to consider this if you're considering collaborative projects, as it is quite frankly a pain in the proverbial to do payment splitting. And I know because I do this with various people I've co written with over the years. So now I'm at sort of every six months because most of the books I've co written are many years old at this point and so I do it every six months, send out the royalties. It again has become a lot easier with AI. It used to be that you have to download all of these reports from all the different services and then open them up and go through, find the books, do the numbers split in half and all that. Now I use ChatGPT agent which is great as you can just upload all the folder, all the files and it will figure out the numbers. But still it's manual work for not a ton of money, sometimes more than a decade after publishing unless you're going to unpublish the book. So that is draft to digital payment splitting and there is a guide to it on their blog. So of course you know I am a fan of using AI tools in a positive way to help us with creativity and business and all of that. But obviously with any tool like the Internet, there's a lot of good, there's a lot of bad. So I wanted to mention the massive rise in spam and scam emails I've been getting also covered in Writer Beware in the last week or so. Now this is really pernicious. These emails are personalized, they are flattering and in several cases now written so well that it takes a while to realize they are spam. There's been a couple of examples. Like I'm usually pretty good at spotting spam because I get so many emails and pitches every single day. But these ones, a couple of them, I actually got a long way through the email before I was like, okay, this is totally not real because they are very complimentary and of course we all love it when somebody says nice things about our books. They're also very specific because they can scrape things off Amazon or other or our websites and so they know enough to make you read on because you're like, oh well this couldn't possibly be spam or a scam because they must have read my book. Yeah, I mean really, a couple have been very, very good. But just to be clear, nobody in publishing or the movie industry or from awards or anything like that is going to email you out the blue saying how amazing your book is unless you are the top of Amazon or selling gazillions on TikTok every day and you've gone somehow very viral, but even then are not going to notice. So these emails are not getting flagged by spam filters. They're often from a new Gmail account and I'm getting five to 10 per day at the moment and they will have different email headlines. AI is very very very very good at copywriting and it's very good at persuasion. So people are using these, humans are using these tools to create persuasive emails and then if you reply to them, obviously then you're involved in a conversation, you're a real person and people are getting scammed. There's a lot more on the Writer Beware blog post which I will link to. It says towards the end this is an incredibly prolific scam that is aggressively targeting writers. As always primarily self published writers, but traditionally published authors too. It has spun up extremely fast. Genai can be prompted to spit out gushing praise and authentic plot and character details, an illusion of engagement that speaks to the soul of attention starved writers. Scams evolve, but psychological manipulation, whether fake praise or false promises of money and success, is always at their heart. The main thing to remember, the vast majority of scams these days start with an out of the blue email, phone call, website contact or social media message. Unasked for. Solicitations or proposals should never be taken at face value. Always investigate, always research. It's very much not great that writers have to be so cautious about everything, but caution is what will keep you safe. So that's on writerbeware blog. And again, remember this is not AI. All AI is bad or the Internet is all bad. This is humans using tools as ever to be human scammers. Now hopefully the spam filters will figure out some way to catch this stuff. It's normally what happens but for now it will hit your inbox. Also just to mention again, people have used my name in various marketing things that I have not authorized. So I guess make sure you check with me or the alliance of Independent Authors is a trusted source. But again people have used their name in things too. So if you see something that involves my name then you can email me to check joannathecreativepenn.com also if in my patreon you can message me direct all of that kind of thing. So yeah, just have a bit more of a radar and if you get an email that is just gushing and positive then I'm so sorry it's probably a scam but in more positive AI things because I think this is so important. I wanted to recommend a documentary I watched this week called the Thinking Game. It's on Amazon prime and it's about Demis hassabis who started DeepMind, which was later bought by Google and Demis now leads AI at Google. He's also now a Nobel Prize Prize winner in chemistry for AlphaFold, an AI system that folds proteins which underpins a lot of biological research for health, novel drug design and other things. Now I wanted to recommend this documentary as it really shows one of the people behind the goal to create AGI and also the kinds of problems they're trying to solve that are so much bigger than writing and publishing now. I really hate that a lot of people get obsessed with one tiny part of what is happening. There are huge implications of this rise in technology and I've said it before, I'll say it again. If we're getting, if we can cure all diseases, if we can solve climate change, if we can save the planet, then no worries, take my job. There are much bigger problems of humanity that we need help with, frankly. Do you know, do you think we're doing a great job? So when I watched this I was just filled with a lot of hope that someone like Demis Hassabis is focusing on this. The documentary also includes the first creative move by an AI move 37 in the AlphaGo match against Lisa Dole in 2016, which I've explained before is the moment I started to pay attention to AI almost a decade ago now, which is crazy. It also includes the moment when China cut the feed as the AI system was about to beat their Chinese go to champion the so called Sputnik moment in China when they decided to go hard in AI. So really interesting in sort of the last decade but also I guess the last 30 years for 40 years for Demis because it's all about his sort of younger life as a chess champion and all that. It's a great documentary, really good called the Thinking Game and also really important. Demis is British and his co founder and DeepMind Shane Legg is a New Zealander. So I always like a reminder that it's not all about the Americans. So that is the Thinking Game documentary on Amazon prime which I hope will inspire you as it did me. And of course just a reminder, I'm doing some more AI webinars in September and it's all changed with lots of stuff that's different to when I did this in June. I'll be doing all new examples and showing updated stuff. TheCreativePenn.com live will take you to the links and Those are on the 6th of September and the 21st of September. Those two webinars patrons get a discount so go to the Patreon if you are a patron in personal news. Well, I got the gorgeous hardback edition of the Buried and the Drowned from Book Vault this week and on my social media on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube @jfpenauthor I shared the pattern sprayed edges. So this is my first patterned sprayed edges. So I've done just full colour sprayed edges before, but these are patterns that also match the custom end papers which I designed on midjourney and the COVID as well. It's got green foil ribbon, head and tail bands which make the hardback stronger and look very cool. So basically I was waiting for that hardback to arrive so that I could do all the photos, the video Finish up the Kickstarter I also narrated, edited and mastered the extra audiobook chapters this week. I did actually really enjoy. I mean it's work. It is work to human narrate audiobooks, that's for sure. But I actually really enjoyed it with the two new stories. It brought back memories of scuba diving in New Zealand and also our Iceland trip. And those are the two new stories and it is all human me narration on that. Someone made a comment about my AI voice from last week's episode when I shared some marketing chapters from successful self publishing 4th edition. But that was human me. It was human me, not my voice clone. Now I think I presume this person thought that because my audiobook narration voice is different to my more chatty podcast voice. So they were like oh yeah, that sounded really like you. I'm like no, it was me. I will always tell you whether something is human narrated or AI narrated. And at the moment the only AI narrated audiobook is Death Valley. I may do more at some point, but this, the Buried and the Drowned is all human narrated. So the Kickstarter campaign is basically ready to go and I'll be finishing all the marketing stuff so I can have everything scheduled. I like to finish everything before I even start the campaign, which is coming 1st of September on Kickstarter. Jfpenn.com buried I also took my Brooke and Daniel crime trilogy out of and the ebooks out of KU this week. The first in that series is Desecration, which I've talked about many times. The sort of first book where I really found my voice and I put them in there for a while to experiment because they're British crime and British crime is a very KU market here in the uk. But I really wanted to offer the bundles of ebooks and paperbacks in the Kickstarter. I would love to also offer the audiobooks, but those are in an audible exclusive based on royalty share contracts I signed years ago. I need to get them out at some point, but it's a hell of a job and the narrator isn't keen, which makes it harder. Now it's just another reminder that a contract you sign at one point that you think this is what I want to do might might be something you regret years later. And I think at the time, well, the reason I did it at the time is I couldn't afford to pay for audiobook narration to pay for human audiobook narration. So I did royalty split deal but obviously lost a lot of control over the audiobook. So I will pull them out at some point but for now those are in audible but the ebooks and the paperbacks and everything are out and are going wide again and are back on my store jfpenbooks.com so pulling something back out of KU in wide. Luckily most of the platforms just, you know, on Kobo for example, you can just republish them and they keep all the reviews and stuff. So I thought that was very cool. Also, over on my books and travel podcast, Merrin Glover talks about writing historical fiction set in partition between India and Pakistan and really interesting interview there with Merryn. Merryn also has a lovely voice and she's been on this podcast before. We talked about nature writing and sense of place. So that is Merryn Glover over on my books and travel podcast. And then thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week. Sunny said, that master's degree course sounds so interesting and completely up your alley. Have fun with it. Hope it brings you much inspiration. And yes, if you missed it, I am starting a Masters in Death, Religion and Culture in September and will no doubt be sharing insights along the way. Also, F Michael Sheehan left a comment on the show notes on Tegan's interview about genealogy. Thanks for another fascinating interview. I was impressed with the professional approach that the author took in producing this book. I'm also working on a book about my family history and plan to create a companion book about the process. And I actually said to Tegan that would be a great idea. So great you're doing this Michael. His is called Writing in Irish Family History A self Publishing Journey. By the way, you might be interested in a piece of software developed in Germany, a tool with hundreds of options for pulling information from your Ancestry.com family tree to complete a book. So that is good. And presumably Michael will be sharing more about that in his book. Also, he said listening to the show while walking my dog Sierra along a wooded path with mountain views in Oregon. Lovely. So please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel. You can email me, send send me pictures of where you're listening [e-mail] I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation so today's show is sponsored by Atticus, which helps you write and format stunning books in both ebook and print formats. It works across all platforms so you can use it whatever computer you work on. It is safe and secure, you own your data and it is also backed up to the cloud so you don't have to worry about losing anything. There are other kinds of software that do things separately, but Atticus has everything in one place so you can streamline your process. You can write your book in the editor built for authors with the ability to drag and drop chapters, manage your book goals and writing habit, tracking, word count and all the usual writing elements. You can also collaborate with others, a co author, an editor or an ARC reader that's an advanced reader copy. If you want comments on the book, you can then use Atticus to format your book or import an existing book to format. There are lots of different templates so you can choose the look and feel or use the custom theme builder and then you can preview your book on a variety of devices so you can see what it will look like. Your export will work with any book market and platform so you can get your book out into the world. Happy authors who use Atticus say it is the one app to rule them all and easy to use for new writers. It is a one time payment and you get 30 days money back guarantee you can start writing and formatting your books straight away. Check it out now@atticus IO. That's atticus IO. So this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating this show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreativepenn thanks to the 12 new patrons who've joined in the last week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on writing, craft and author business as well as tutorials on AI tools. Last week I shared how to do sprayed edges as well as an example of Generate to market with Gemini Storybook and actually that one got a ton of responses. All the patrons are just cooing over that the Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month. And I drink drink a lot of coffee or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview. Danny James is a writer and literary translator and recently translated Return to the Place I Never Left, a Holocaust Survivor memoir by Tobias Schiff. So welcome to the show, Danny. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Oh, it's great to have you on the show. So first up, just tell us a bit more about you and your background and how and why you got into translation.

[B]

So I'm a writer. I'm based in New York City, but I grew up in Antwerp in Belgium. And even though I'd been writing creative nonfiction and fiction for years, Return to the Place I Never Left was my first foray into translation. And it was really driven by an interest in translating this book that I personally adored and kept rereading over the years. And then, thankfully, I speak several languages, and I grew up going to school and learning Flemish and Dutch in school and being educated in that language. And so I had no previous translation background. But just because I enjoyed this book so much and felt it was deserving of a wider audience, it inspired me to try my hand at it. And that's ultimately what drew me to translation. And I found a lot of joy in it. And I've actually learned a lot about how translation, in my opinion, now can really enhance a creative practice and in ways that I wouldn't have expected before I took this on.

[A]

Oh, well, it's fascinating because, of course, your accent is American to my ear, but I've worked in Belgium, and people might not know much about Antwerp. But how did you get from Belgium to New York City? And tell us a bit more about your sort of traveling childhood and upbringing.

[B]

Yes. So, okay. My parents actually met in New York City. That's also where I was born. So my parents met in New York City in Washington Square park to be exactly in the 80s. I feel like that gives you a little bit of a lay of the land if you've ever been there. My mother was visiting. My father's Jamaican. He had been living in the US since he was a teenager. My mother was actually visiting, and they met and fell in love and ended up getting married and having me. So I was actually born in New York City. But then when I was still a baby, pretty much. We moved back to or we moved to Belgium. And so I ended up growing up in Belgium. I did from kindergarten all throughout high school in Belgium. And in the summertime, though, I would come to New York City because the biggest part of my family is my dad's side of the family, and they lived in New York. So I spent my summers, the whole summer and sometimes even the winter break in New York City and the rest of the time in Belgium. So that's how that happened. And that's also why I. I mean, I've been back in New York now for about 15 years. So. Yes, and now I do the opposite. I visit Belgium every summer. My mother still lives in Belgium. I have a lot of childhood friends there. So that's how that came about and why I definitely have the New York City accent.

[A]

Yeah, okay. No, that's interesting. So let's get into this book then. So return to the place I never left, like you mentioned. It has great personal meaning to you and your family. So tell us about that. What are the connections there? Like how again, it seems so strange to hear your accent and then to think of the connections you have there.

[B]

Yes, there's so many connections, actually, I have to this book. So first, my grandparents were Holocaust survivors. So when you think of the Jewish community in Belgium at the time where I grew up, they were all survivors or descendants of survivors. And in the case of my grandparents, they survived the war by hiding. So my mom's side of the family is Jewish, so I am Jewish. And so the majority of both of my grandparents families did not survive being deported to Auschwitz. And so the story of the Holocaust is one that is part of my family's history and therefore also my history. And so I really grew up with this knowledge and knowing these stories, they're very common in my family because they've directly affected my relatives and my family members. And growing up, when I used to go to the synagogue, I'm not as religious, but I am of course, culturally Jewish. And so for the high holidays, I did used to go to the synagogue to celebrate them. And so fun fact, typically there would be two black people in the synagogue. When I grew up in Belgium at the time, and it was me and another girl, who actually is Tobias Schiff's granddaughter. And me and this other girl, our mothers knew each other. Of course, it's a small community. We knew each other. And I believe that this is how the book entered my home. I believe the daughter of Tobias Schiff, so the mother of this childhood friend ended up bringing a copy of the book when it first came out. And so I don't really remember how I first was introduced to it, but I do know that, like all people who grow up with big bookshelves at home, and when you're a reader, I would just pick up books from the bookshelf. And at some point I came across Return to the Place I Never Left. The original title is Trich of the Platz Dieknoiter Furlate. And when I read this book the first time, it really stood out to me because I had known about the Holocaust, you know, had heard all of these stories. Every family of survivors has these crazy stories that you know of and that you learn growing up. And I'd read several books. But what stood out about Tobias Schiff's book was the style in which it was written. So it's written in verse, and it looks like poetry on the page. And it's very direct language because it comes from an oral project initially where he was interviewed for a documentary. And it makes reading it very accessible because the language is very direct. He's speaking to you as a friend, or sometimes it sounds as if he's speaking to himself as well. And so it allows you to be a witness to his innermore thoughts, or it allows you to hear him speak to you as if he was a friend. And so the style of the book really drew me in. And I ended up rereading it several times over the years. And I have really bad movie and book memory. I will forget entire plots. And that works really well for me because it allows me to reread my favorites over and over again. And so some of my favorite books and movies, I'll reread them or rewatch them, you know, four or five times. And that's one of the things I did with Return to the Place I Never Left. I've reread it several times over the years, and then at some point thought, I feel like more people would appreciate this story. And outside of the fact that it. It gives people good insight into the experience of someone during the Holocaust and what that was like, and surviving these death camps and afterwards grappling and navigating these really traumatic experiences and how that impacted him and his life, outside of those really intriguing parts of the book, it's also set in Antwerp, partially, which, you know, if you've traveled around the world, very few people know Belgium. A lot of people know the uk, The Netherlands, Germany, France, all the countries around it, but not a lot of people know about Belgium and definitely not about Antwerp. So I also like the fact that, in a way, it shows some details about the city of Antwerp in a very unfortunate setting. But Antwerp is where I also grew up, in Belgium. And so, for all these reasons, Return to the Place I Never Left is an incredibly powerful book in itself, but it also tells such an important story of important places and important experiences that are meaningful to me and many people around the world. And I think even if you don't have a personal connection to this, you could gain a lot and learn a lot just from reading this book.

[A]

So the original was in Flemish, is that right?

[B]

Yes, there's actually quite a journey even to getting to this book. So originally, Tobias Schiff was interviewed for a documentary. And the documentary was titled was in French. It was a documentary about Holocaust survivors and their experience. And I believe it was filmed in the late 80s and perhaps came out in 1989. And it was filmed by a French filmmaker named Turin, that's his last name. And he interviewed Schiff for hours and learned about his experience. And afterwards, the slot that the TV station had allocated, it was going to be aired on TV. It was only 26 minutes long. And the filmmaker thought, how can I distill this story into 26 minutes? It's not doing justice to the entire story. I can't tell this story in such a short amount of time. But it was a limitation set by the TV channel, and so he had to edit it down. And so what he ended up doing was releasing or publishing at the time, the transcripts of his interviews with Tobias Schiff. Now, those initial transcripts were in French, and I believe it was a little booklet. And these editors came across it and thought, wow, this is really powerful, and then contacted Schiff to collaborate and use these transcripts as a starting point to create what would then become Return to the Place I never left the book. So he ended up writing more, and it ended up. Ended up being, instead of French, they translated into Flemish or Dutch, which Schiff also spoke all of those languages. And then that was the official first publication, which was published in the 90s in Belgium. The Flemish version of Return to the Place I Never Left. That version was then translated into French in around 2012.

[A]

Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah. And he was. He died in 1999. Right. So this is now his estate who are making these decisions?

[B]

Yes, yes, exactly. Yes.

[A]

So now it's in French. The book is in French.

[B]

Yes. So in 2012, the book was translated into French, and then in 2017, it was republished in Belgium and the Netherlands in Flemish.

[A]

And.

[B]

And in 2025, my version came out, which is the very first English translation.

[A]

Of the book, which is great. So we have to go further into this because so some people listening might be thinking, oh, great, if I find a book I love in a different language, I can just translate it. But that's not true. So can you then tell us, so how did you, given that you don't have a translation background, it's not like you could go to them and say, oh, look at all the things I've done. So how did you get the rights to do this? And what was that process?

[B]

Yes, it was a complex process process. And I had no former knowledge of the process. When I started, I just knew I wanted to translate the book. And so before I even got started, I asked the family for permission. So I know one of Schiff's daughters, and so was able to ask her because as you mentioned, since Shiv passed away, the family is the estate. And that was my initial request. I just said, I really love your father's book. I would love to bring it to a wider audience. Would you be okay with me translating it? And so they said yes. They were actually excited about this prospect. And I had a verbal, verbal confirmation. That was my first step. And so the way that I approached it, this idea for several years, but then I got, in 2019, I did an MFA in creative writing, so a master's in Fine Arts. And I had asked the director of the program if they had a translation course, and they didn't. But they did encourage me to pursue this project. And so they said this, me translating it could be one of my final projects in addition to my. My thesis. So what was great is that even though there was no particular guidance on translation or what to do there, I was able to translate it and have someone give feedback on at least the parts that I produced with no context of the original. But that was just a good experience there. And I was motivated to work on it also alongside generating new material for a thesis. But rights wise, once I had completed the manuscript and once I was ready to shop it around, I realized that, okay, when I looked into it a little bit more, I needed proof that I had the rights.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. It's kind of crazy to me listening to you. So you went ahead with translating the whole thing without having any kind of contract?

[B]

Yes, yes. And I recognize that this is very different also because the original author had already passed away. And there are several ways. And you know, when Books are published today and when the author is still alive, and sometimes the publishers contract it out, Right. And they look for translators. And the publication deal then looks also very differently, because as a translator, you're contracted just to translate. And the publishing deal is with the author, of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In this case, it was very different. So I have this manuscript, I start shopping it around, A publisher is interested, and so I have this note here, this little PDF note from the family stating I have their permission. So once the publisher was interested in publication and sent me a publication contract, then I had to ensure that I really had everything in order with the rights in Belgium and with the family. So initially what I did is I have a friend, a good friend, who's a lawyer, and I asked him to review, and he said, okay, I could look at this, but you need to get yourself a real lawyer. So I got a lawyer. And that was the best decision I had made, because this lawyer had experience and really helped me navigate not just the publication date deal with the publisher here, because in the us, I am the copyright holder of the English translation of Tobias Schiff's book.

[A]

Yeah, I was going to say to people listening, this translation is a subsidiary right of the original book. So actually it is the. The publisher as well, I presume, of the. Whichever you translated from the French or the Flemish. That is also the point. Right. It's not even just that you're asking permission. You're using another publisher's as the basis for your own translation. So you do need that as well.

[B]

Yes, yes, exactly. And so as I was navigating this, my signing my publication deal and negotiating it here in the us, I was also navigating the rights in Belgium. And so some of the steps we had to go through were I had to formalize permission, first of all, we had to find out who owned the rights. Was it still the Belgian publisher or had it gone back to the estate? So that's what we had to figure out. And it actually, the rights had reverted back to the estate, actually. Oh, okay, that's good. Yes. And so then we knew who we. So we had to identify who to collaborate with there, who had the rights and who could transfer the rights to me or grant me permission. Then we had to create a document for the estate to sign. But in creating this document, we also had to navigate Belgian copyright law. So at some point, I also had to find a Belgian lawyer to not just review and make sure that what we're writing in this document aligns with both US and Belgian copyright laws. Yes. And then we also, for best practice, had to translate the paperwork on the Belgian side as well. So all the documentation with the family were in two languages. So they were both in English and in Dutch or Flemish. All of that had to be squared away before I could sign the publication deal here.

[A]

And you're paying for all of this. You're paying for all those legal things. It's not like you. Did you get an advance from the English language publisher? Or is this all a labor of love? Really?

[B]

This is really a labor of love. I did not get an advance because I had. I already had. You know, again, this was my first time going through this. I already had the finished manuscript. It was like, here it is. And so no advance. Thankfully, in Belgium, there was an organization for Belgian authors, and we were able to get support from a Belgium lawyer specializing in literature who was able to help us pro bono. So that was a beautiful find. Yes. I had to dig, dig deep just because I was reaching out to several lawyers and trying to find out who could help and then find out about some organizations. But, yeah, it took a lot of navigating it. And I have to say I'm very grateful for my lawyer because my lawyer had more experience, not in translation specifically, but just in the literary or creative industry. And so he's able to see 10 steps ahead. While I'm looking at a document and thinking about how does this make sense for right now, he's thinking, but what if three years down the line this happens or that happens?

[A]

Yeah, like if there's a potential movie, for example, from. Yes, the English language, that's what you have to plan for. You know, utter failure where nothing happens and then utter success where everything happens. And it's like, okay, movie deal, massive amount of money comes into whose account and how does that get to the estate and where's the split? And so it's great that you had that experience with your lawyer, because these kinds of rights are really difficult to manage.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. But with the right people in place, I would say so specifically the lawyer. That was amazing. And definitely you mentioned no advance. You have to invest your money in it. But money well, well spent when it's someone who's really out to also protect you and has this experience and this insight for just those situation that you. That you mentioned. Right. What about if there are movie rights involved? What if someone wants to adapt this into a. Who owns the rights?

[A]

Yeah. And. Or even somebody then decides to translate your English version into a different version. I mean, these things go back to multiple layers, which is why copyright law is so complicated. But just taking a view now, would you have done this if you had even realized all of this sort of stuff later? Because I would say to people listening, it is important to get that stuff done before you start a project because that if you hadn't known them, they could have just said, well, no, you have the rights. Or they could have had an offer for an English translation as well and your work would have been wasted. So I guess it's just all worked out well.

[B]

Yes, yes, that's right. I probably would have done it the same had I known. I mean, ultimately, in my experience, it was a great learning experience. And like you mentioned, the book is here, it's published in the us it's doing well. So it was very much work worth it. And I learned so much from it. But yes, I've also learned that the way that the process works is not always this way. And it really depends on the whole situation. How long has the book been out? Who owns the rights? Is there interest? Is there a publisher? Typically, I would say, though in smaller, in the case of this book, this is written in Flemish or Dutch. It's a language that's not really spoken in many places in the world.

[A]

So.

[B]

So between the estate and publishers, people would usually be excited to have this become available for a larger audience. Right. And typically there's also, when you negotiate these rights and when you publish something, there's also a percentage of potentially profit sharing or royalty sharing. So it also benefits ultimately the rights holder if they're interested in that as well. Of course. Right. And yeah, earning from that and yeah, and also having the book receive a wider readership. So that's where the benefit lies.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's very different to you doing this pretty obscure book compared to somebody saying, oh, this is a best selling novel in English, let's turn it into Flemish. Because, you know, that's sometimes a lot more complicated. But okay, so let's just finish the publication story. So you find a publication publisher who's interested and was this just then an easy process all the way to publication or how was the publication process for you?

[B]

Oh, I will say easy. It was a learning process.

[A]

This is the first, your first publication, right?

[B]

Yes, yes, my first publication that's through a publisher that's not in a anthology or literary magazine. And so the publisher was great. It's a small publisher, Wayne State University Press. Great team. Small team. But they were great in keeping me in the loop. So we ended up going through I had to complete a sales and marketing questionnaire to talk about ideas about how we would market the book. I had to do a design questionnaire and was able to share my ideas for the COVID art, which I really enjoyed because it was fun. I would go into bookstores and look around and look at covers and think about ideas. And the final cover for Return to the Place I Never Left merges some elements of the original cover, which I really love. So it has red and the barbed wire and we kept that the same. But then there's also a lot of white space with which I was intentional about because there's also a lot of white space on every page. And so I felt like it really reflects this modernized version of the book. But yeah, we went through these design and marketing decisions and then through copy edits and proof edits and it actually went pretty smoothly because it was already a completed manuscript when I presented it to them. So those parts. Parts went well. You know, it was fun to think of new things to generate when it came to sales and marketing and the COVID But when it came to the book itself and the copy edits and the proof edits, that went pretty fast.

[A]

Well, it's not like they're going to say, well, we need you to improve the story in this way, because as a translation you're not making a change to the story. And I also presume they couldn't read the original, so they couldn't really say to you, well, that's the wrong word.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah. So I imagine it was great. It's really an interesting. Just on that sales and marketing, because most authors have a massive problem with this. Is it basically just down to you to do all the marketing?

[B]

A lot of it is. Not all, but. But a lot of it is. Yeah. So the publisher, they'll take some things on. They'll submit the book for reviews to several places. They'll sometimes share some ads that they. They've launched for the book in specific places. And then at other times, I just recently came across a new prize for Jewish literature in translation, actually given by an organization in the uk. And so that sounds perfect. Yes, exactly. And so I was able to contact my publisher and send it to them and ask them, hey, is this something that you could submit this book for? And so they will take that part on so I don't have to go and submit myself and send copies of the book myself. So if I see an opportunity, I send it to them and see and ask them, was this on your radar already or not, you know, is this something you will take care of or I'll take care of it. And so they will do that. But I would say the majority falls on the author or translator, in this case themselves, to really push it out into the world.

[A]

And you made a lovely video. In fact, you pitched me for this and I. I went to watch your video, and I think it's lovely. You've got a lovely voice, but you've got a lovely manner, I think, about you, which comes across really well on video. So is video something you do normally, or is this something you've done specifically for the book?

[B]

This is something I've done specifically for the book. I. I kind of shy away from video, typically.

[A]

Oh, me too. Yeah. But I think you did a good job of talking about yourself, but also about the book and reading. And I know it's hard, but I do. I think it's an effective way of breaking through when books are hard to market.

[B]

Yes. Thank you. I think one of the things that made that video work as well is that the director of that video is also a friend of mine and a creative collaborator. And so he was really good at teasing out some responses from me, I would say. And I generally get excited when I speak about the book and the translation of process. There's so much to say about it. I really appreciate it. And as writers, we typically are very excited about the writing and the creation part. So I could talk about it for a very long time. And so my friend, his name is Kofa, he's also a writer himself and a filmmaker. He was also very good at just asking specific questions. And he also knows me and knows some parts of the story and can look at it from an outsider perspective and then know, okay, this could be interesting to other people because there are some parts of the story that for me are just so normal that I don't really think somebody else would be interested in hearing this. Right. But he'd be the one to say, actually, let's talk about this a little bit more. I think people would be interested in that. And sometimes I would think, really, you know, but then later when people see the video, sometimes people come back and share some things that they. That stood out to them in the video. And they're the things that I wouldn't thought have even put in that video myself, because I would think this is normal. No one's gonna care. So it's really helpful to have that outsider perspective. And when you have a good editor or director, they can really direct and pull out things from you and put them together in a way that would be interesting to the audience. So I'm very grateful that that's how that came together. You know, two friends working on a project there.

[A]

Yeah. And I think. I mean, from everything you've said, a lot of this has been based on relationships and tapping into your. I think that's really good. And what you have to do, especially with a labor of love. And I don't imagine this is going to make you, like, millions of dollars. It's just not the reality, is it?

[B]

Yeah. So you have to. We'll see.

[A]

We shall see. You never know. But, I mean, the amount of work you've put in and the amount of work you're going to have to keep putting in to keep this book alive, I think is. Is amazing. And, I mean, that's partly why I wanted to talk to you, because I feel like. Like a lot of translation work is contracted, as we said, by a publisher. It's not necessarily done in the way that you've done it. So let's just briefly touch on the creative side of the translation. You said that you learned a lot, obviously, but that it enhanced a creative practice. So just tell us a few things about the actual translation process and the literary challenges of that.

[B]

Yes. Happy to talk about this. So the first version, again, this was my very first time undertaking a literary translation. So the first version was me translating it longhand. I wrote it in a notebook. I had the original book, and then I had my little notebook and I translated it almost word for word. I wanted to stay as close to the original in this first version. And later I took my notes from my notebook and put them on my laptop and already started making some tweaks here and there. You know, you see a word. Mmm. Actually, or sometimes I would notice, oh, I actually translated this, but with Flemish grammar. This doesn't quite read well in English. So I start making those type of edits, and then. Then over time, I would re edit, re edit, reread the whole body of work and edit it. And over time, as I became more familiar with the text and started seeing certain things, like, actually, I feel like the way that this sentence is written, it kind of glosses over what's actually a really important moment. So I made some choices there. For example, the original, if you see the book, it has very little punctuation and only names and place names and people's names are capitalized. And so it reads almost like this stream of consciousness. And it looks like poetry on the page. And the Original is the same way. That's where I got that style from. But I ended up pulling that style through a little bit more. Because there were some scenes in the original where I felt that you almost gloss over something that's really important. And so I made deliberate choices to add some line breaks sometimes or create more vignettes so that some parts were standalone. So, for example, when they get deported, or when scammers ring the doorbell pretending that they can get the daughter who's deported back to the family, there were some moments that I felt could stand out a little bit more. And so those type of choices came in further editing rounds. Because I really wanted to honor this original text of this man who has passed away. And at the same time, I also wanted to really bring forth the meaning of the text as much as I could and make sure that it resonated with English readers as much as. As it did with me in reading it in Flemish. And so over time, in later editing rounds, I saw that I became a little bit more comfortable in making those stylistic decisions to emphasize some things, or by changing words or adding a word or two or removing a word or rejiggering a line. And that was challenging, since I had no one to guide me through this. And so I had to think to myself, what is the ultimate goal? Is it to stay as close as possible to the original text, or is it to make the translation as strong as possible? And what was helpful to me was to think about the fact that no two translations are the same. And you have several classic novels that have been translated several times, and some translations win awards. What makes one translation better than the other? And when I thought to myself, you know, about this, And I realized, like, okay, it's okay to put some of myself into this piece. There are these two quotes by translators that I absolutely love. The first one is by Mark Polizotti, who says, when you read a translation, it doesn't mean it's a secondary experience. It doesn't mean that you're not reading the author. It means that you are reading the product of two the original author and the translator, who has to read the text, interpret it, and regenerate it in terms that make linguistic sense. And there's another translator named Katrin Ogard Jensen, who actually is now, I believe, the director of alta, which is a international organization for literary translators. And she calls a translated book a sibling of the original, but not a twin. And so I love both of these quotes because they really show how the translation is, in a way, a collaboration it is in a way being in conversation with the text of the original author and in some cases with the original author when that author is still alive. And so over time, in later editing rounds, I was more comfortable in making these decisions and infusing a little bit more of myself and how I would approach this, how I would change this up a little bit to amplify this a little bit and make sure it reads well, make sure it presents well with the goal to honor the original text and make the English version as strong as the Flemish version. And so once I was in that mode, I think the challenges, I wouldn't say fell away. They became a lot more fun also, because you're able to still be creat creative and really think of what is the perfect word here. You know, what word specifically would personify or would really highlight what this line means. Sometimes there's not a one to one translation either. And then you get to play around and really figure out, okay, which word do I use? Do I need two words to replace one? And there's a lot of. You have to really flex your creative muscles in ways that I hadn't really expected and in ways that I find have made me a better writer, even when I come back to my own projects. Because you're so concerned with every single word. It's similar to poetry and to all good writing really is. We think about every word and what it evokes to the reader and how it looks on the page. And with translation, that is very true as well in a way that I hadn't really expected when I started translating it. I didn't think that I would find so much joy and that I'd be able to be this creative when it came to word choice and sentence crafting.

[A]

Oh no, it just sounds like a lovely process. I mean, I'm kind of classic British person who doesn't speak any other languages and I think it's really interesting. Now I did want to just ask you about your thoughts on AI assisted translation because this is obviously becoming a big part of the industry now in traditional publishing as well as in the self publishing space. So obviously the type of book you're talking about about is like you said, more poetry. It's not a standard, just a novel, narrative novel. But what are your thoughts on AI assistance in translation?

[B]

So I haven't. I did not use it for return to the Place I never left at all. I don't know that I would use it. I understand why people would use it especially for a first draft potentially. But the reason that I would stay away from it personally is because I think even in that first draft, when, when you're taking words from one language into another, you become more familiar with the original text. And so you're really rereading it from one language, putting it into English or the language that you're translating it in. And you already start forming ideas sometimes about certain words or certain things you might want to do or change when you're translating it. And I think if I were to use an AI tool to take on even that early draft, it would already make assumptions for certain words. And as we mentioned, specific word choices have, can have such a big impact. Right? Not every language has a one to one translation for every single word in a different language. So I think that process of becoming really intimately familiar with the original language and your friends first draft into the language you're translating in, I think that's actually quite important to do. And I would be nervous that AI would translate certain words and then I would now look at the AI translation and base my translation off what AI already selected. And so for some words, when you then look at the original, you might think actually what the author meant is a little bit different from how AI translated it. But now I've given it the same meaning of the AI translation. So that's why I would personally be hesitant, specifically when it comes to literary translation. Now for legal documents or marketing terms or anything that's different, I'd probably leverage it or I'd be open to leveraging it. But with literature and writing, and we're again so concerned with words and strong writing, writing is so important at this time, I would, I would not yet use it in my own translations. And who knows, that might change in the future.

[A]

Yeah, who knows? But I love that your process was so detailed and as we said, you've put a lot of love into this project. So before we go, I am interested. Are you done with translation? Like you mentioned, you've got your mfa, you've got lots of other writing. Are you now working on your kind of own original work in English or are you still open to other translations work?

[B]

Yes, I am still open to other translation work. Actually, someone already gave me a little booklet to consider. It is a short book also about a Holocaust survivor. And I do plan to do something with that one day, just not right now. Right now I am working on a fictional novel. And one thing I have learned is, is when you are publishing something, you're steeped in the subject matter for at least a year. I'd say around two, from writing it or generating it. And then if you have a publication deal or if you're self publishing, the proof edits, the copy edits. You're so knee deep in the subject matter when it comes to a topic like the Holocaust. It was very challenging. At some point I actually took a break for about three years after I had finalized the manuscript before I ended up picking it back up and shopping it around around because it was a pandemic, it was locked down, There was a lot going on and it's a very, very heavy subject matter, especially when this is something that my family members went through. And so what I've learned now is you have to be so entrenched in the subject matter for so long that I actually have two manuscripts that are far closer to completion, but they also deal with quite heavily heavy subjects. And so I have decided to pursue a different project that is a little bit of a lighter subject matter. It has some humor in it, a little bit of romance, a little bit of juiciness. And so that is going to be my next project that I hope to complete and be able to find a home for by next year. And after that one then I'll tackle one of those other more serious or a little bit darker subjects again.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's good. It's good to do a break. I often do like a non fiction book in between things kind of, kind of helps. But I guess you've done a non fiction. That was the heavy, the heavy one, but no, that's great. Okay, so the book is Return to the Place I Never Left. Where can people find the book and find you and everything you do online?

[B]

Thank you so much. So Return to the Place I Never Left could be. Can be found anywhere. Books are sold online and also at DannyJames co. So that's my website. That's where you can order the book. That's where you can sign up for the newsletter. That's where I'll publish any upcoming events and readings. And you can also find a link to my YouTube channel as well. So that's dannyjames co. So D A N I J a m e s.co Brilliant.

[A]

Well, thanks so much for your time, Dani. That was great.

[B]

Thank you so much. And I just really want to take a moment to thank you because I absolutely love your channel. I found you through YouTube by the way. And so that is where I mainly listen to your podcast. But I have to say you have created such an incredible wealth of resources for writers every time I look at your videos. I have like 10 videos that are in on in my queue that I want to listen to and they're all so so helpful. Even though I know that you talk a lot about the journey of being self published. But it's so helpful all the guests you have on all the resources. So I just wanted to thank you. I've shared your channel with several of my friends who are in writing books as well and taking on under other creative projects. So big, big thank you for doing this work.

[A]

Thanks so much. So I hope you found the interview with Dani interesting and it's always good to consider which of our books we are absolutely so committed to that we will work for years to get them into the world. And for me Writing the Shadow was one of those books. If you have been listening a long time, you would have heard me talk about the Shadow book for many, many years before I actually wrote it. Also Pilgrimage books that remain close to my heart and the Gothic Cathedral book is turning into another one of these, that's for sure. Let me know what you think. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or on the YouTube channel, or email me joannathecreativepen.com and send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next Monday I'm talking to Clay Vermullum about collaborating on a short story collection while podcasting the editing film process, writing locally based stories to make it easier to sell in person and this really gave me a good tip and more tips for critique groups. Really interesting conversation, quite wide ranging obviously. And in the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] and you can get your free author [e-mail] blueprint if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and x hecreative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook jfpenauthor Happy writing and I'll see you next time.