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The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
The Intuitive Author With Tiffany Yates Martin
01:06:57
How can you manage the competing priorities of an author career? How can you deal with the demons we all have to wrestle with along the way? Tiffany Yates Martin talks about the role of intuition in decision-making,
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- [00:01]
Joanna Penn
Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots more@thecreativepenn.com and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show Hello Creatives, I'm Joanna Penn and this is episode number 782 of the podcast and it is Sunday 24th November 2024 as I record this in the middle of a storm here in the uk. If you hear any windy noise in today's show, I'm talking to Tiffany Yates Martin about managing the competing priorities of an author career, the challenges of feedback and rejection, the role of intuition in decision making, and the importance of reclaiming creativity during difficult times. It is a great discussion, so that's coming up in the Interview section.
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Tiffany Yates Martin
In.
- [01:09]
Joanna Penn
Writing and Publishing Things Starting with Audiobooks Amazon Music Unlimited will now include a free audiobook per month, as reported in the Verge, as an attempt to match what Spotify is doing with their premium subscription. But this is definitely not the same. So I have switched. I've mentioned before, I've switched from Audible to Spotify for audiobooks. It is 15 hours of listening to audio with Spotify, which can be across multiple audiobooks, which I actually really like because I will often dip into different audiobooks. I listen to mostly non fiction, so I listen to chapters across multiple things. I can't be the only person doing that. But this is really interesting because a few years ago people were like, oh, it's not going to change things. But of course it is. For the new Amazon plan, individual subscribers and the primary account holder for family plans can listen to one audiobook at a time of any length per month. So it's basically a credit. If a user doesn't finish the audiobook in the month, they can continue listening to the same audiobook the following month or choose a new title. As ever, I think streaming and unlimited programs are more about marketing your audiobooks and your author brand. I don't necessarily think of them as revenue streams. Audio is definitely a better revenue stream if you're selling it direct, because as we know, with the rise and rise of digital audio and all of these unlimited streaming things, it can be difficult to make good revenue from those markets. But luckily there are lots of other ways to make money with your audiobooks. So yeah, very interesting expansion of Amazon Music Unlimited. I dare say this will not be the end of the expansion of this kind of thing. Also, the Self Publishing Advice podcast from the alliance of Independent Authors shares a discussion on when to pivot and when to quit a project. This can be really difficult, but their tips include identifying your values and make value based decisions determining what is most important to you in your writing life, such as freedom, security or connection. For me, freedom is always my highest value. This can help you make decisions that align with your goals and priorities. Also, don't beat yourself up if things aren't working. Writing is a difficult profession. Not everyone finds success immediately or indeed ever, so your definition of success is very important. Be kind to yourself and remember that success takes time and effort. Also, get unbiased feedback on your writing to identify areas where you can improve. And this is so important because sometimes you feel like something is isn't working because of the market or because of your book cover or whatever, but it may be that you've put it in the wrong category. It may be that your writing itself needs to improve. So you can pay for professional editors. You can ask other authors or beta readers for honest opinions. You can also pay for consulting or publishing strategy work, which sometimes you need that hard word because it's difficult to see our own issues and we can be a bit delusional. I think about reality, especially when we're emotional about our book and certainly I understand this. It took it took time after my many failures at selling my first book to put the majority of those books into the dump. If you've been listening a while, you know back in 2006, 2007, I self published my first book, Did Lots of printing, I was in Australia, failed miserably to sell any. But it really took me into learning about all of this and realizing that if I wanted to be successful at being an author, I needed to learn marketing, I needed to get online, I needed to do all these things. This idea of quitting or pivoting is also an important topic to revisit at this time of year. As we're coming to the end of one year, the beginning of another, and many of us, including me, we love to think about what we've achieved this year, what we didn't achieve, how things have changed, what we want to do next year, we need to be honest with ourselves about how we're spending our time and our money and our energy. Too many authors fall into the sunk cost fallacy. And this is me now, by the way. I've moved on from the alliance podcast. Yes, so too many authors fall into the sunk cost fallacy. We're reluctant to let something go because we've already spent time and money and energy on it and we just keep pushing when perhaps we need to let it go. And this came up again in various ways at Author Nation. One of my patrons asked in our Patron meetup, how do you know when things are ending? And it was more about business models and marketing. Things like recognizing the end of easy and free discoverability for books online and the beginning of the era of pay to play. That was a difficult period. It was obviously a few years ago now, but it was like, okay, you can't just upload a book for free or 99 cents and expect to do really well. That just doesn't work anymore. You have to do marketing. You have to have a strategy. But this is a much bigger question. So it can apply to a bigger to a book series. And again, we're thinking here of is is this sunk cost? Do I need to pivot or do I need to quit this? So yes, in a book series. Anna Saban Lane talked about this in episode 763. She let go of one series to move into something else, which became much more successful. Rachel MacLean also did this with crime books, which we discussed more recently in episode 770. And part of me, part of me really knows that my arcane series needs to end, although I have left the last book open. So Spear of Destiny was the 13th book in that series, so I can return to it. It's not like I killed off my main characters, but I know that I need to put my fiction energy into other things and I can't keep doing more books in my safe series. I need to to try other things in my wider author career. I did let my books and travel podcast go and I've obviously pivoted my business model several times. So for example, letting the courses end last year. This can also apply to your job and career. With the rise of generative AI, people's jobs are changing. 2025 is going to be the year when things really start to accelerate, especially with the shift in the US Government admin, the incoming administration. For good or bad, whatever you think of it, it doesn't matter what you think of it now this is happening. So the accelerationist era is upon us. So jobs are going to change. Some will end and others will rise. There will be new jobs. For example, most of how I make money now was impossible 20 years ago. Could not have been done. Podcaster, I mean, this wasn't a thing. You could, I guess, become a radio host or get a job in traditional Media. But making money with podcasting was just not possible. Probably even a decade ago, it wasn't possible. So even though technically it was happening, it just wasn't viable. Income stream, being an indie author, all these things, these were not possible. So I'm again not worried about how things will change. It's more about how are we going to adapt. And perhaps your day job is going to change. It's best if you know things are ending before they do, so you can pivot. So this is the important question. How can you recognize when things are ending or when things are starting to spiral downwards as opposed to spiraling upwards? That's how I kind of think about it in my mind. Is, is this spiraling up, is this spiraling down? And if it's spiraling down, can you change the trajectory somehow or do you have to let that go? This can also apply to friendships, to marriages. The feeling when you're growing apart and you realize the relationship is ending, or one person does, perhaps. In terms of countries, this has happened for me too. I knew when my time in London was ending in the year 2000, my life was too destructive, it needed to end. And so I left and went to Australia and that kind of changed my life. I went to New Zealand and then moved back to Australia. But when Jonathan and I Left Australia in 2011, it was because we both recognized the ending in our careers we had at the time. There were some very clear signals that it was spiraling downwards and we needed a change. And I'm giving you all these examples because I really want you to start thinking about this in terms of your life, your wider life, your author life for sure. But the rest of life is much bigger. Also your health. So I really felt my long distance walking, my sort of multi day long distance walking ended with the Camino de Santiago. That was the last time I walked so many kilometers, kilometers per day. I was done and I moved more into powerlifting and also into calisthenics now doing kind of weird things on the rings, handstands and stuff like that. On a deeper level, I was definitely in denial about menopause for a couple of years there, as I'm still going through the whole thing. But many women listening will recognize the form of grief that comes when you're Lee, when you leave a younger version of yourself behind. And you might think, oh no, I can bring this back, I can bring this back. But of course you can't. You literally cannot fight the march of years. I mean, you can stay healthy and fit and all that. But the years will still pass and I needed to realize that that phase of my life was ending in order to move into a more positive view of middle age. Let's call it middle age. So also political situations. We have had opposite end in the US and the UK this year with countries going in different directions. And again, not a political comment. Some people will think these are good, some people will think these are bad. But there are endings happening all the time and we have to recognize them in order to move into the next phase. So lots of things to think about there. Certainly I'm thinking a lot about this at the moment. But to come back to the question for you, so how do you know when things are ending? Or you can ask yourself, how do I know when things are ending? How have I recognized when this has happened in the past? How have you seen this coming? And then really just take stock of what's going on right now. Take an inventory of your life. Are there things you need to end or are there things you need to plan for ending? Because you can see that they are in fact spiraling down and can you arrest that spiral or do you need to make a shift? And on this topic I recommend Annie Duke's book the Power of Knowing when to Walk Away, which I revisit. It's one of those books to revisit because we can become so blind to what's going on. And this is true in author business models. It's true in so many things. So I hope that gives you something to think about today and as ever, let me know in the show notes or the comments or by email what you think in AI things. Of course things are changing and unsurprisingly HarperCollins is doing an AI licensing deal. I said this would happen when their parent company News Corp signed a licensing deal with OpenAI back in May 2024. Although to be clear, it is not confirmed that the deal is with OpenAI. So the Verge reports that authors would have to opt in to the agreement with an unnamed AI firm with one reporting an offer of $2,500 to license their book for three years. This seems to only be relevant for non fiction books. Harper Collins notes this quote HarperCollins has a long history of innovation and experimentation with new business models. Part of our role is to present authors with opportunities for their consideration while simultaneously protecting the underlying value of their work and our shared revenue and royalty stream. This agreement, with its limited scope and clear guard rails around model output that respects authors rights does that the Authors Guild put out an article on this which is worth reading. And they say the licensed use of books must replace AI companies current unlicensed, uncontrolled and infringing use. Moving to a regime of licensed AI use gives authors the power to say no or insist on limits on output uses and be compensated. The Authors Guild appreciates fair initiatives that move us towards licensing solutions. They also say the HarperCollins deal provides for a US$5,000 fee per title which will be split 5050 between an author who chooses to participate and HarperCollins. They say this 5050 split gives far too much to the publisher. These rights belong to the author. They are not book or excerpt rights. It is the author's expression that produces value in AI licensing. That's actually good point because it doesn't have to be published to be used as training data. So yeah, but I do think that they should get a percentage for negotiating the deal as like but maybe more of an agency fee. Although of course agents will also presumably get a percentage of this per author. So as ever I did put this in my 2020 book on AI in publishing. I said data licensing is hopefully going to be a new revenue stream for all of us. So I've been thinking about this for a long time and I'm very pro data licens licensing. I think we need to do this. This should be a very good income stream for all of us. Data licensing is not going to go away. It's going to continue to be useful for different kinds of small models. These bigger deals are for the bigger training runs. But there are lots of other ways that data licensing can be used. However, my biggest thing because you might be getting an email from your publisher about this or you might be looking at these deals, my biggest thing here is they should be non exclusive, very important. Especially for an amount that is similar to that. It should be non exclusive. So there will be lots of different data licensing companies and lots of options for licensing and we like multiple streams of income. So please if you do get an email about this and you do get a publishing contract going forward it will probably include data licensing. So try to change that clause to non exclusive. So then over time you can also upload your books if you choose to to other platforms in order to do other licensing deals. So in personal news I have been editing like a crazy person. I have been working so many hours on how to write Non fiction the second edition and thankfully I have gone around again. You know how that that point when you look at your book and you go oh why am I doing this. So I've been through that and I returned to oh this is actually a really useful book. So I'm very happy with it now. Feel like it's super useful even if you have the first edition. This is also a useful second edition. It is now with my editor Kristen. So that first edition I wrote in 2018 this will be the I guess 2025 edition let's say. Although I will probably have it out on my own store before then. I might, who knows, depending on how the formatting and proofreading. I also want to do the audiobook before Christmas, all of that kind of thing. I will be doing a special hardback but the plan is to launch on my store creativepenbooks.com it's not going to be a Kickstarter. There will be some lovely foil hardbacks with a ribbon. I just can't resist doing that every time now. I'll have the pre order up probably in the next week on all the other stores and also on creativepenbooks.com so also my short story Sea Henge is out on all the usual stores and in audio. Narrated by JF Pen Me My My voice for JF Pen is quite different. So if you prefer listening, you can. Depending on what you're listening right now, you can always click over and find seahenge. If you search seahenge, I think I'm one of the only fiction things that comes up. If you've read it already, I would appreciate a review on the big stores and also on Goodreads. That would be fantastic. Also, Blood Vintage hardback books are arriving around the world. Rob sent an email saying, OMG this is frigging gorgeous. I do love to hear that from people and see the pictures. So thank you for everyone who backed Blood Vintage. An update on the whole traditional publishing thing. It is unsurprisingly still on submission pretty much because of the US Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year. I've now written this off until January, February, and part of me is kind of just waiting to see how this process goes. The traditional publishing process, which of course always takes a really long time and I feel like being part of that process is important because I've never done it before. So I will have more of an experience I guess by going through it and who knows, it might eventually get rejected by everyone, which is completely normal obviously. Also, when this goes out I will have done the discovery writing webinars and I did one yesterday as I record this and I really, I really enjoyed it. I enjoy these every time because people find different things because we do it live. People find these sort of things come up for them and they get surprised and it's and I also write and it's very fun. So thanks for your emails and comments and photos this week. Deborah said of Natalie's interview, Great interview as usual when you said too feral for an office. I completely relate to this and absolutely love it. It's now my go to response for anyone who suggests I get a proper job. Also, Jeff Adams commented about the introduction on Author Nation. He says it was great to see you in Connect at Author Nation. I've got my ticket for next year. Fantastic Geoff. It was lovely to see you too. The conference exceeded my expectations. Expectations. I'm still going through all I learned, but it was definitely a well spent week of learning and networking. The orthonation team has set a high bar with how good the inaugural event was indeed. Okay, so please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the creative pen.com or message me on X at the Creative Pen or email me. Send me pictures of where you're listening. Let me know what you think of the interview, but also on what I mentioned in the introduction there. So joannathecreativepenn.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more of a conversation Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital Self Publishing with support and this is one of the great reasons you might choose to publish through Draft 2 Digital. They have a human customer service team who can help you, and sometimes that's just what you need. You can publish ebooks to all the big platforms as well as library systems. You can also publish print books and they can help you through that process too. And in fact I know lots of people who move over to Draft two Digital Print because some of the other platforms remain a little complicated. They have formatting tools as well as an easy publishing system. I use Drafts 2 Digital for my ebook distribution to Nook Library Systems and now even to Apple because they haven't upgraded their publishing stuff for years. I also use Drafts2Digital's excellent payment splitting for my co written book the Relaxed Author with Mark Leslie Lefebvre. A great option if you're co writing. It basically means that the payments are split by Draft two Digital so you don't have to do it manually. There are no charges for formatting or updating your book. They take a distributor 10% of retail price on sale. No upsells, no service packages, no fees of any kind. Set your price to whatever you want, even free. Make as many changes as you want to your book, update the COVID distribute it to any and every sales channel you want. It's your book, your choice, your world. They also have marketing tools and promotional opportunities available. So you get these emails that say, do you want to submit your book to this promotion? And I just submitted one for an Apple promotion. I do literally jump on any promotional opportunity. Draft 2 Digital says your book is your priority. Our priority is you. We build tools and services that let you focus on writing while we take care of layout, publishing, distribution, print on demand paperbacks and more. Check them out@draft2digital.com that's with a number two draft2digital.com so this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my community@patreon.com TheCreativePen thanks to the 8 new patrons who've joined this week and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to all the backless videos and audio covering topics on creativity and writing, mindset, business, AI and my Patron Only Q and A solo episodes and office hours. This week I posted my Extended Lessons Learned article from Author Nation and coming up this week I'll be doing that Patron Only Q and A audio. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. You get access to everything, all the backlist content and Q&As which are organized into these different areas so you can find things you want to watch or listen to or read. So if you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview.
- [23:40]
Tiffany Yates Martin
Tiffany Yates Martin is an editor, speaker and teacher with over 30 years in the publishing industry. She writes contemporary women's fiction as Phoebe Fox and her latest non fiction book is the Intuitive how to Grow and Sustain a Happier Writing Career. So welcome back to the show, Tiffany.
- [24:00]
Thanks for having me again, Joanna.
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Oh yes. So we talked about your background when you were last on the show in April 2022. So today we're going to jump straight into the book. So why did you write this book and what problems did you see in the author community that led you to want to write about happiness and sustainability?
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I know it's kind of a departure for me. I've spent all these Years as an editor working on hard skills, craft skills and teaching about that. And then I started, I was actually in the middle of writing what was to have been the follow up book to my first intuitive editing, which was a deep dive into character development. And I just kept writing and thinking and talking about these other ideas because I was hearing from a lot of authors that they were feeling overwhelmed by all the changes and the constantly evolving publishing environment. I think it's, it's fortunate, it's a fortunate time to be an author because I think we have the opportunity to have more control and autonomy over our careers. We have more avenues than ever before. Publishing has become democratized, but that's also bringing with it a lot of overwhelm and I was hearing a lot of discouragement. So I started in my blog where I used to focus a lot on hard skills. I started writing more about this stuff because I just wanted to try to help authors based on what I was hearing and seeing. And they got huge response. So I kept the character book just kept balking at me and I finally realized that one of the things I kept talking about in my blog posts was to pay attention to your motivation to what you want out of your career. Because that's the part that we really have control over is what our day to day life looks like as authors. So I decided to follow my own advice and turn my attentions to the book that really wanted to be written right now that I felt like authors probably need more than ever.
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I think that's so important. And as much as I'm sure your character book will be amazing if you do it, I think this is something I felt very much last year which is the more prescriptive, you call it hard skills there the prescriptive do this, do that and I mean character development, there's a lot of books on that. Your take would have been different. But I also similar my last non fiction book Writing the Shadow. It's like the personal stuff, the mindset stuff stuff, the lifestyle stuff, all of that actually is something that the machines can't share. I mean they can share it, but it's not their experience. Whereas it is actually our experience. So I agree, I think that's so important. But just just on that overwhelm and the changes that are going on, what are some of the things that people are saying to you? Because I think that will resonate with people listening as well.
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Well, I was startled by how many, particularly in traditional publishing, how many authors were feeling discouraged by what seem trends in the industry And I'm a fan of any kind of publishing path that fits an author. So I'm not slamming on traditional publishing. But advances do seem to be going down. In general, there is a fascination with the debut author. So a lot of authors are kind of. If you're not that shiny new thing, I think that it feels as if traditional publishing doesn't help an author build a following and a career over the span of their career in a way that maybe it used to focus on. So it's like, come on, make a big splash with your book or else they're moving on without you. And as a result of that, a lot of authors, I just talked to one yesterday, are being encouraged to try new genres, to write under a pen name so that you can kind of disown disappointing sales in the past. And then competition is higher than ever. There's more than 2 million books are published a year. So I think authors are feeling like it's harder and harder to pop out of the slush pile. And even with indie publishing, with all the opportunity that it offers and the greater autonomy in many areas, there are a lot of different responsibilities authors have to take on. And people who are creative aren't always necessarily intuitively business minded. And that's a whole new skill set you have to learn. And then running a business in conjunction with running the creative part, which are both, I think, very consuming pursuits, is a lot. And we're trying to balance all of that with our lives. One thing I talk about a lot, and I know you do too, Joanna, is I call them the writer demons. But it's the things I think writers and creatives have always suffered from keenly, like imposter syndrome and competition and comparison and procrastination and self doubt. But it feels like we open up more space for those with all the other overwhelm going on. So it's kind of a combination of all those things.
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Well, this is to stay on those demons, because you have in the book, one chapter is called when the demons come for you, and they will. And it made me laugh because I think in my successful author mindset, I've got a section that says if you haven't published yet, don't read this, which is like, do you really want to know all the things that you might feel later on? But it's interesting. And I can't remember if you have this in the book, but you just mentioned overwork. And I feel like another one of the demons is overwhelm in that we struggle, potentially struggle with focus and Making a choice. And almost the part of the problem is authors are trying to do everything, and you literally cannot do everything. So how do we deal with. How do we deal with overwhelm in particular?
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So one of the things I talk about, this is a huge question, and I love it because I think it's really relevant. But one of the things I talk about, about in the book is really defining what drives you as a writer and what you want out of your writing career. I think we a lot of times go into it just out of sheer love of the written word and storytelling and imagination, Exploring our imagination and all that's great, but we have to think about what a writing career actually entails because it's a business. So we have to think about what that's going to mean for us as authors. So I think part of that is setting priorities. I had a friend once who we sort of compare notes creatively and in our creative careers, and she suggested because I was really feeling overwhelmed myself, I tend to. I'm a freelancer, and I'm pretty sure you can relate to this, Joanna, but you build your reputation and your career as a freelancer by being what I call the yes girl. It's very common for me to get overwhelmed and overbooked. And it does become hard to work on things and to give your attention when all you can see is the giant mountain of stuff in front of you you have to do. It's hard to start taking a single step at a time. So she suggested that I create a priority list, an actual written priority list of what is most important to me in my career. Not a to do list, but if I had to stack, rank the goals that I have, the things I want to devote my daily attention to, the reality of my writing career, day on day on day, what does that look like? And then when I started to consider what I wanted to say yes to and book myself with, I was able to literally go back to that list and rank it in order of how important is this to me? Do I realistically have the bandwidth for this? And is it something that needs to be done imminently? So that's one way to start. I do think it's helpful to think of it, especially if you're indie publishing, let's say there is. But with any publishing path, really, there is such a giant pile of things writers are responsible for now. And I think more and more, which is part of that overwhelm. We're not just writing, we're marketing, and we have to learn graphic design and we have to learn, you know, legal language to manage our contracts, and we have to worry about every aspect of the publishing process in a way I think authors never had to before. So I think we just have to figure out how much of that we are comfortable with, what suits our goals and rest. I don't know if you've read the book by Alex Sujung, Kim Pang, but the instinct, at least for me, when I'm overwhelmed, is to work harder, work longer, work more. And sometimes I think that's counterproductive because we're burning out. We're just. We're depleting all of our resources that we need in order to accomplish those things. So we have to remember to unplug sometimes. What is your advice on this? Because you are one of the busiest people in the industry that I know.
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Well, it's funny you say that, because I don't think I am. I think I just demonstrably how have output. And on my wall, I have measure your life by what you create. In terms of my focus every day, that is my focus every day. But all those other things, I often will not do them. I just don't do them. And so this is my answer.
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Like what? Like, you mean social media or.
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Yeah, social media is probably a very, very good example. And if Sasha Black's listening, she'll laugh. I did try TikTok. I tried TikTok for like, less than hours. And I was like, do you know what? No. There's just no place in my life for this. And things like advertising, I do things in campaigns, so I don't do things all the time. So as we record this, I am just finishing up a Kickstarter. So I have been doing some social media and stuff, but most of the time I don't do that. So I. I've cut out a lot of things. And one of my tips is having.
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Joanna Penn
A not to do list.
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Tiffany Yates Martin
And this might help people who can't say no. So, for example, and that people sometimes think I'm a bit mean for this, but podcasting, one of my rules is if you have fewer than 50 episodes, I won't come on your podcast. Sometimes I have exceptions. But what I have found is that a lot of podcasts, most podcasts don't last past 50 episodes, and it's a bit of tough love, but most of them don't last. And I've had enough time wasted over the years that I've been like, okay, that's one of my rules. So it's on my not to do List. Another thing on my not to do list is TikTok, for example, so I think. And also particular types of writing or. So I think having a not to do list can really help. But let's come to intuition because I feel like intuition is part of this, is trying to how do we make a decision as to what we do, prioritize what we do value. So, but let's just take a step back. Can you talk about what, how you describe intuition and how can we tell whether something is intuition or just something we're dreaming about and might be unrealistic?
- [34:55]
Yeah, I think intuition gets confused sometimes with magical thinking or manifesting. And that's not what I mean. I used it in the title of my first book, which was a hard skills book, Intuitive editing. Because it's the approach I take to editing, which is basically what I mean by it in that capacity is that rather than trying to take some external system of writing and impose it on our writing, which I think is counterproductive and strips the writing of its voice and originality, we have to grow a story from the inside out. And then if you want to take some of these, many of them wonderful systems for helping you fine tune and make your story more effective, great. But to try to cram what we're doing into a mold I think takes all the life out of it. And that's kind of how I feel about creating a writing career. It touches on actually what you were just saying, which I love, which is even in this field, even in this area of our field, there's a lot of prescriptive advice about, you know, here's how you become a bestseller, here's how you make six figures as an author. And it's all very system oriented, kind of like these craft systems I'm talking about. And so I think writers go into it thinking, okay, I've got to do all those things, check, check, check, so that I can be successful also. But we have to do more of what you were just talking about. Set up our personal path, our boundaries. We have to say no to the things that don't suit us, whether or not we're told they are best practices. Because first of all, nothing that works for one person is going to work for every person. So if somebody's trying to set something up as the holy grail of here's the secret sauce, there is no secret sauce. But also the secret sauce isn't right for everyone. And I think what we neglect to do as authors is honest. Honor ourselves and what we want. What you just said is so empowering because it's giving ourselves permission to not do things that we don't want to do because we can't control any outcomes. But what we can control is the day to day experience of being an author and building a writing career. And that's your main source of fulfillment and satisfaction and joy. That's going to allow you to weather all these hard parts of publishing that are not within your control. So I'm with you. I sort of only moderately enjoy social media, so I sort of only moderately do it. But I'm aware that I'm building a business, so my intuition is to do things that are more organic marketing. I really like talking to people. I love conversations like this with you. I love teaching, I love writing my blog. It turns out I did that because like everyone else, I'm like, you should start a blog to create more followers. And then it turned out it was really a wonderful way for me to help create community and to start exploring some of these ideas that weren't necessarily in the purview of what I was known for doing. So intuitively, I have been creating a career where I say all the time that my worst day at work is still a really good day and I'm not always waiting for some holy grail that I'm trying to attain that may or may not happen. I'm enjoying what I'm doing right now.
- [38:25]
Yeah, I agree with that. And you use the word love when it comes to things like the blogging and talking and teaching and things. And the word love, of course, is an emotional word. And I'm sure you don't love everything all the time, but I don't love.
- [38:41]
Everyone all the time, Joanne.
- [38:43]
No, exactly. And, but I think partly to me, the intuition does come from some kind of emotional feeling. And like, and I like using TikTok because I do feel like some people absolutely love it and some people hate it.
- [38:56]
Joanna Penn
And I tried it and I just.
- [38:57]
Tiffany Yates Martin
Had almost a visceral. I just don't do video. So you and I were not on video right now. I don't know whether it's because I'm an introvert, highly sensitive, but the visual field, when it's doing a lot of things, is just too much for me. I don't consume video. Video. So I don't really make video. I do it sometimes, but very rarely. So why would I even try a video platform Now I have, and I do have some YouTube videos and blah, blah, blah, but the point is I don't love it. So I can never ever sustain that. Whereas this show, in fact, I'm just about to record a 10 million download episode. I know.
- [39:33]
Oh my God, it's crazy. Congratulations.
- [39:36]
Thank you. This will go out after that. So people can listen to that. A few shows ago, but essentially, actually, when I started this podcast in 2009, podcasting wasn't even a thing. But I intuitively felt that I should try it. And so I tried it and then I enjoyed it. Like we're having this conversation and we've talked before.
- [39:55]
Joanna Penn
This is great.
- [39:55]
Tiffany Yates Martin
We're enjoying this. Even though it's also marketing in inverted commas. So I was like, I tried something, I liked it, I continued doing it. And here we are all these 15 years later, whatever, still podcasting. And that only happens because I intuitively started and then enjoyed the process. So. So it's like you say, you can't think of an outcome of 10 million downloads. That's just impossible. You just have to start and go in a direction. So how would you advise people tap into that emotion? Because the problem with that also is that sometimes you go to a conference and there's all this hype about something or you get caught up in some hype and you do it. And how do you know when it's hype or that you really should give it a gay.
- [40:38]
I just wrote a post and about this obliquely and that it's very easy to market a dream to people who want it desperately. But I do think a lot of it. There's. The whole first section of the new book is called Foundations and this is kind of the core of it. I think we have to define why we went into this in the first place. So you have to stay in touch with that initial drive to be a writer, because that's the engine for your entire career. And for most of us, I don't think it was that we wanted to be rich and famous. If it was, allow Joanna and I to disabuse you of that notion right now if you don't already know. The odds against that are enormous. So if you're going into. You wouldn't go into any other career where you had. What is it? I don't even know the statistics, but it's something like less than a. What, 3% chance or even less of making millions, Even becoming a full time writer. Making all of your income from your work is dauntingly rare. But we go into this anyway. So we have to remember why it matters that much to chase after something so unlikely. That's the thing that's going to start to build that resilience in all of us as creatives. And then, as I said, you have to define what you actually want out of this. And when you're defining your goals, goals, try not to make them things that are outcomes that you cannot control. If we are in this business because we want to be a New York Times bestseller and nothing else will make us happy, then the chances are phenomenal that we will never be happy at what we do, because most authors are not going to become New York Times bestsellers. The harsh reality. We have to understand and accept the realities of the business so that we can stay in touch with why it's still worth pursuing for us. There's a question I ask in the book that I've used. I started as an actor, and then I was a journalist and I wrote fiction, as you said. I haven't been doing that lately because I identify primarily as an editor. But every time I'm sort of evaluating where I am in my career, what I want intuitively, I ask myself, if somebody told me right now that I would never hit the hype heights, the greatest heights to which one might achieve in this field, would I still want to do it? That was asking myself. That was the reason I eventually left acting. It was one of the reasons I stopped writing fiction. And every time I ask myself that as an editor, the answer is, hell, yeah, I would still do it. I love it every day. And yeah, I do use the word a lot. But to me, you say it's an emotional word. This is an emotional business. We're not in this for logical reasons. Most of the time we're in it because it feeds something in us, in our souls. And that is emotional. I think. So, yeah. I love my daily job and I don't want to do anything else. Even if someone said, you've peaked, baby. This is the best it's ever going to get. I'm happy. And I think that's. That is what we have to find a way to get in touch with. Because otherwise everybody says you have to develop resilience in this field and persistence. But that's the ingredient, the main ingredient of that resilience is finding the satisfaction in what is within your control to affect.
- [44:12]
Yeah, it's interesting. I've also been reflecting on this around persistence and resilience. And somebody said to me, oh, you've got so much discipline. I'm like, I have no discipline. I don't have discipline. I don't need discipline to do this job because I love What I do, same as you. Right. And it's interesting. You talked about moving on from acting and not being. Let's just say you're not in a fiction phase right now because that may or may not come back to you. And I feel like it's. We're writers partly because we almost have no choice. Like, once you tap into that vein of creativity, whatever that is, you can't stop doing it. And it looks like even if nobody reads the damn story or nobody buys the book or whatever, you're gonna continue. And I was thinking about this with the podcast, given the reflection on the downloads and things, at some point I will stop podcasting. I can see an end to me podcasting, but I can't see an end to me writing. I feel like that's actually something I could do for the rest of my life and, you know, right up until I die. And PD James, wonderful British writer, she was still working on a manuscript when she died at like 94 4, I think she was.
- [45:27]
Oh, wow.
- [45:28]
And yeah, and it's like if you. If you have that. In fact, I have so many quotes on my wall. I have a quote on my wall by a horror author called Adam Neville, and it says if you are gifted with an imagination, it must be used. And that I feel like that just gives me permission and people listening and yourself permission. You know, we have an imagination, and I used to think everybody had what we have, but they don't. They really don't. Not people don't live with all these things in their head that they want to write on the page. They don't, but we do. So that. I mean, almost part of it is, once you tap into this, do you even have a choice, even if there is no reward?
- [46:06]
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a basic instinct, I think, especially for those who are called to do this. And do you want to set yourself up to dread and hate and get burned out on the thing that nourishes you so much? So I feel like if we're just a little kinder to ourselves, give ourselves more grace and give ourselves more agency in how we spend our days pursuing this thing we want, that's how you sustain it till you're 94 years old, writing your last book right before you die.
- [46:37]
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so you use the word kinder then. And so I want to come onto this feedback section of the book because being kind to ourselves is all very well and self love is great and everything, but you have this thing about feedback which encompasses writing feedback, rejection, Criticism and also the crickets. When nobody responds to an email or query or nobody buy your. Buys your book, nobody even cares. So I feel like this is the opposite side to the whole love side of things. So what are your tips for. I guess, resilience when it comes to feedback. And even if we intuitively reject it, because that can actually happen as well, how do we become better writers as well?
- [47:23]
I love that you make the point that I probably should have clarified. I do have a lot of positive regard for this field, but let us not downplay how difficult and challenging and just downright painful many aspects of it can be. And this is probably prime among them. Rejection is really hard, and criticism is tough. You just recently wrote about this, I think, Joanna, about getting back your notes from your editor and how you always just kind of have to take a beat with it.
- [47:50]
Yeah. Take a break.
- [47:52]
Yeah. I do think we have to be gentle with ourselves. The first thing I tell authors when I return, an editorial letter, and mine tend to be pretty meaty. So, I mean, I just wrote one that was 10,000 words just to give you an idea. On top of all the comments, I tell them, draw a bath, pour yourself a glass of wine. Take a moment to be in the right headspace to hear all the things that may not be as effective on the page as you hoped they would be. But I think that's the critic. One critical distinction is that good critique is not commenting on you or your talent or the worth of the story. It's simply reflecting what is on the page and whether it's coming across in a way that is conveying your vision as effectively as possible for the reader. But again, this is a subjective thing. And that's another thing to remember is that all criticism, all critiques, critique is subjective. And I include mine as a professional editor or any professional editor. I include agents, publishers, and every single reader who leaves a review. Everyone feels how they feel about a story, and everyone is affected by something different. So remembering that can be helpful. Good critique is also not personal. I make a distinction in the book between three different kinds of commentary, criticism and critique. Criticism is my least favorite kind, and that's. That's just basically unhelpful, negative feedback about your writing. Like, this isn't working. I hate this character, things like that. First of all, it's very daunting to hear that, and it's hard to take it in in a way that allows you as the author, to do something constructive with it. Second, it is the criticizer, let's say the Critic who is simply offering their judgment, their assessment, which is personal and doesn't necessarily help you. You. Then there's commentary, which you get a lot in critique groups, which is stuff like, well, you know what you should do, or this actually happened to me. And let me tell you what really. How it really would look. That's somebody telling you prescriptively how they would do something that is also not helpful. Critique is that thing that simply holds up the mirror and reflects what that hopefully educated critiquer is seeing in your story and is able to do so in a way that says, here is where I was pulled out of the story for this specific reason. And here are some ways you could address it, not prescriptively, like what she should do is. But, for example, something that says, like a good piece of critique would be something like, I didn't understand the character's motivation in this scene, so I felt a lot. Little bit uninvested in her. It would help if we understood why she wants him to do so. And so. And maybe that's simply her telling him, or maybe it's giving us a glimpse of her inner life. So I'm giving some suggestions, but I'm not saying how to do it. Now. We don't always get that. And especially. And so you have to become your own advocate in many ways in this career. But this is one of them where you take. And you're great at this, I think, Joanna. You take in the feedback back and you determine what resonates for me and the story I'm trying to tell and what isn't right for my intentions. And you take what is helpful to you and you disregard what isn't, and then you just leave it behind you and not let it continue to percolate. I do want to talk about rejection, too, but I want first to ask if you can weigh in on this as well, because I know you. You're very experienced at hand handling critique.
- [51:35]
Well, I think to me, it's always been worth paying for a professional editor. I have never been in a book group or a writing group because I want somebody who knows what their job is. So you're a professional editor. You like editing. You know what the job of an editor is. Now, I do think editing, finding an editor is a bit like dating, as in, you might not find the right person for you at one point in your life. I think you also, when you grow as a writer, you might need a different editor. So I do. I think that that. That is important. I still, you know, now I work with Kristen Tate and she's been on the show and it means it helps me a lot. And so I do think the intuition that comes back in with when I get the feedback, sometimes I ignore it. Like you say, I don't take every single piece of feedback from Kristen and put that into action. I But it usually is 80 to 90%. And if I'm really reacting to it, it's like, well, why am I reacting so hard? Is that a good reason? As in, do I just feel like, no, that's really important? Or is it a more of an ego reason? But to me, the main thing with editing, like professional feedback, when it comes to someone who is trying to make your work better, is putting your mind turning yourself into a reader rather than the writer. Because it's all about making the book the best it can be for the person who's going to read. And I think there's such a precious moment when an editor reads your book for the first time because you're never going to have that time again, that first sort of feeling of the manuscript. So it's important to take that feedback seriously because that's the experience the reader is going to have. They have coming to this cold, they don't know what this is going to be. So yeah, I definitely take feedback from a professional editor differently to a one star review on Amazon. Or you're just a boring person, just a crap writer. And I'm like, yeah, okay, whatever. So yeah, but you mentioned rejection you wanted to talk about.
- [53:38]
Yeah. Because that's a pretty big if you're trying especially to pursue a traditional path. That's a pretty big part of it. You're going to get a lot more rejection than acceptance. And that's a good reality to accept when you're going into this career. And again, you have to learn not to take it personally first of all. And let me tell you, having been an actor, there is no rejection like the rejection of somebody staring at your face and going thank you in the middle of what you're saying. So I feel in some ways very lucky to have started that way because you can take anything after that. But it still hurts to get back even a form letter that says no thanks if you get anything at all. So I think you have to find ways to keep it in perspective. For starters, if you're getting a form letter, keep in mind you are one of likely hundreds of submissions they're trying to read through on the slush pile. They may not have made it past the first page or paragraph. They may have Read a little more. And it's just not right for them for what they represent, for what the market is buying right now. They may not they like it, but they don't love it. And you want a champion who loves it. So be glad. In that case, it is like dating because you would. You don't want to go out with someone who doesn't really think you're all that. And also, you understand when you're dating that it's going to take a long time for most of us to find the person you really want to commit to. But we tend to lose sight of that because we set our sights on, oh, this is the perfect agent for me, this is the perfect date for me. This is my perfect spouse. And we have decided that based on really nothing. We have to understand that it has to be the right fit. Just like with an editor, when you get those rejections, find ways to lighten the blow. I made poetry out of mine. I included some in the book because they're the form letters especially. They're very funny to me because they, you know, nobody really, every agent, every publisher is hoping as hard as you are that you're the one. So they don't, they're not in the business of crushing dreams. They don't want to do that. So a lot of these form letters are really nice, but they're really generic. But they will say things that are almost like haiku in. We admire this work greatly and feel that your talent will find the right home. But sadly, it is not for us at this time. And this just began to strike me as hilarious. So I put it in poetry form and I put them up on my wall and it helped. And I also started making kind of a contest out of it. It took me 113 queries to get my first agent. It took us two books and three rounds of submissions all told to get a publisher for it. So I think if you go back to what we were talking about earlier, you develop that resilience and persistence. It's also helpful in the rejection arena or the crickets are arena, which can be even harder because it's almost like you're invisible or you don't matter. But again, that's just a function of the industry. Agents, publishers, they are, they are buried. You think you're overwhelmed, they are too. And they're just trying to keep their head above water. And sometimes that means they, they can't even acknowledge. So don't take it personally if that's really hurtful to you. Maybe that's not the right person for you anyway. Way. So take it as a. You're one step closer to finding the person who is.
- [57:09]
Joanna Penn
Yeah.
- [57:09]
Tiffany Yates Martin
And get back to writing. I think that's the other thing. I always have a bit. Like everyone, I have a bit of a slump after finishing a book project because you're empty. You've emptied yourself into the book. And I start to kind of mope around, and I'm like, oh, what do I do?
- [57:21]
Joanna Penn
What am I doing?
- [57:22]
Tiffany Yates Martin
What shall I do? And then in the end, some idea pops into my head. And, like, I started writing this short story called C Henge over the weekend because I was just in such a bad mood. I was like, why am I in such a bad mood? I was just kind of waiting around for the Kickstarter to finish. And I do have a book, this book with an agent. And I was like, why is everything so slow? I was like, just start writing another story. And now I'm happy again. So it's kind of nice.
- [57:45]
It takes the pressure off. Like, I just. With this one launching now, I have the same thing. It opens up an empty space. But I always see that as, first of all, rest, because you know how hard it is to launch a book. And then freedom, you know, now I get to pick anything that I want to work on. What could that be next? I always think that's a happy time.
- [58:06]
Yeah, exactly. Now, there may be people listening who. Who are struggling with, I guess, that creative spark. I think sometimes it's easier to find than others. And you do talk about reclaiming the creative spark in troubled times. And, I mean, right now, you just look at the news, and there's extreme weather and hurricanes and political upheaval and war, and also the creative community is being ripped apart by divisions over AI. So I wonder if you can kind of help us to navigate reclaiming that creative spark in difficult times.
- [58:39]
Well, you left out plague, which we also had.
- [58:43]
Yeah, I've forgotten that now.
- [58:45]
That didn't happen. It'll be back. Don't worry. So I think that was sort of the genesis of thinking about a lot of this for me, was when Covid happened. I was hearing from so many authors that they couldn't write, not just because of time and all the unrest we had then, and they were so busy making their sourdough starters, but because there was so much mental unrest and uncertainty and fear and distractions at home you never had before. A lot of us or isolation you never had before. So that was actually when I started doing online teaching the first Course I ever created was called how to Train youn Editor Brain. And I was telling authors that just because you're not feeling like you can create right now, that doesn't mean you cannot be creative. I am a big advocate that one of the greatest things you can do for your own writing is to analyze other people's stories. Because you have the built in objectivity with those that you don't in your own stories. And it lets you see the inner workings of it in a way that I think it's hard to pick apart our own. So if you're watching something, you can follow back your own. You know, what were we doing during the plague? We were lying on the sofa, binge watching stuff. So I started, I created this course that showed authors how to watch analytically like an editor. And that is something you can do for your creativity, whether you're able to create or not and not feel that you are no longer a creator. Plus, you're resting. And I cannot overstate the importance of that. But there is a great value in our writing, I think, in using it, in leaning into those feelings. I mean, first of all, a lot of us start writing, why? Because we want to escape something, the real world. We want to create an ideal world we love. We want to work through our emotions, anything painful or uncomfortable. We want to learn what we think about things. We want to share our beliefs about things. And all of that, especially in troubled times, I think can be your engine. Alison Scotch is a best selling author that I've worked with in the past. And she had a book called Cleo McDougal regrets nothing about a female politician. It was inspired by her frustration and fear about the political situation and just the global unrest we've been having and the polarization. And I think she told me that she wrote that book in something like six weeks, that it just poured out of her because she took all of those feelings, fears, fury that she was feeling, and put it into this story. So that's one thing you can do with it. The other thing is to remember the power of your story. I think for me, some of the most impactful moments I've had as an artist have been when a single individual said something to me. Like one lady said, your books helped me get through chemo. And I don't know of any greater reward than something like that. It helps other people process pain. It connects us. It helps people make sense of what seems senseless. It can give voice to the voiceless. It creates hope for people. It can change the world. This is such a. It's not a dumb story, but I. It's so kind of pop culture y but I tell it all the time. It is established that the show will ingredient was a huge part of the reason that marriage equality passed in the Supreme Court because it brought the other for many people into their living rooms in a way that broke down those barriers and misunderstandings and preconceptions people may have had about the LGBTQ community. And it enhanced acceptance. And I hate to use this word because it implies abnormal, but it normalized it for people in a way that in influenced the law and civil rights. That's astonishingly powerful. I don't know if that's helpful for people when they're in the middle of all that unrest, but for me, it can. It does hold out a little bit of a beacon. I dedicated intuitive editing to the storytellers who illuminate the world. And I believe that, yeah, I guess.
- [63:09]
To come back to the intuition if the spark is anger or a cause that you have or something in your own life, but to I guess, let. Let those sparks ignite and follow those sparks. Even if people say to you, oh, that's a dead genre, or that's not going to sell to anyone, or that's just not going to make any impact.
- [63:30]
On anything, or you can't write about that, you know, do you want to write safe or not? Yeah.
- [63:38]
Yeah. So really do write those things that keep at you. And I would say, even if you don't know how long it'll take to resonate with people. So coming back to my book Writing the Shadow, I've been kind of working on an idea for that for like 20 odd years and it took a long time to write. And I know that it's not for most people most of the time, but when people are ready for that book, then it makes a difference.
- [64:01]
Yeah.
- [64:02]
And so.
- [64:03]
And it was important to you to write it, obviously, that you persisted for two decades to do it, which is the inherent reward of it to me. Like, that's the thing that makes that worthwhile for you as an author.
- [64:17]
Yeah, exactly. So it is. It's quite interesting how these things develop, but we're out of time. So where can people find you and your books and everything you do online?
- [64:26]
Oh, the best place for it all is foxprint Editorial. That's my website. Writer's Digest has named it one of the best websites for authors. It's full of resources for authors, many of them free, downloadable guides, recommendations. I've got my blog on there that's full of like tips on craft and writing life. The book links are there but you can buy them anywhere you buy books. And then I also have online classes and those are paid but I keep them very low priced and pretty much everything else on there is free and designed to just help authors write better.
- [64:59]
Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time Tiffany. That was was great.
- [65:03]
Thank you so much Joanna.
- [65:09]
Joanna Penn
So I hope you found the discussion with Tiffany interesting and that it made you think about how you might lean into your intuition as well as set priorities for your author career while staying resilient along the way. As ever, I love to hear your thoughts about the interview or about anything I talk about in the introduction. Please leave a comment on the podcast Show Notes at the Creative Pen Message me on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepen.com and send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. You can also email me and say please don't read this out on the podcast. If you just like to tell me what you think Next week I'm talking about Writing the Other and Self Publishing in South Africa with Aisling McCarthy who has a gorgeous accent. I love the South African accent and it's always interesting to learn how things are for authors in other countries. I know we focus mostly on the US and the UK here, which are, to be fair, the biggest markets for English language books, but it is great to talk about South Africa and also consider other perspectives in our writing. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today.
- [66:22]
Tiffany Yates Martin
I hope you found it helpful.
- [66:25]
Joanna Penn
You can find the backlist episodes and show notes at the created and you can get your free Author blueprint@thecreativepen.com Blueprint if you'd like to connect, you can find me on Facebook and x hecreative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook fpenauthor Happy writing and I'll see you next time.