The Creative Penn Podcast for Writers

Episode 826 – Writing and Publishing Short Stories and Poetry
Host: Joanna Penn
Guest: Orna Ross
Date: September 1, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the creative and business aspects of writing and publishing short stories and poetry. Joanna Penn and Orna Ross, both multi-genre authors and passionate advocates for independent publishing, dive deep into the craft of short form writing, the emotional and practical considerations of poetry and short stories, and the strategies for publishing and marketing these works—especially in the modern, digital landscape. The conversation is a candid exploration of their own creative processes, the challenges and freedoms of indie publishing, and how authors can lean into their unique humanity in an evolving industry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Poetry: Inspiration and Creation

• Poems find the writer, not the other way around (27:26):
  • Orna shares that for her, "poems pick me rather than me decide." They arrive organically, often as a "flash of feeling and image coming together... concentrated emotion."
• The Human in Poetry (29:22):
  • Both agree that poetry, particularly about deeply personal experiences like bereavement, embodies a humanity that is difficult—if not impossible—for AI to recreate.
  • Orna: "The feeling and emotion and experiences... open you out in some way... that is something that can't be replicated."

2. Short Stories: Seeds and Structure

• Short story ideas vs. novels (30:39):
  • Joanna sees short stories as springing from a "story seed," often with a twist or unexpected turn, citing her love of Roald Dahl's "Tales of the Unexpected."
  • She values short stories for their ability to explore different subgenres and for leaving the reader with questions, as opposed to the closure typical in thrillers.
  • Joanna: "My short stories, they leave you with a question... that's really important. A bit like the Roald Dahl stories."

3. The Creative Process: Poem vs. Short Story

• Writing process for poems (36:16):
  • Orna drafts a prose outline inspired by W.B. Yeats, then moves to poetic form, emphasizing rhythm, image, and emotion.
  • She balances fast inspiration ("I can start and finish a poem sometimes in a day") with poems simmering for years.
• Writing process for short stories (47:46):
  • Joanna writes and edits short stories much like her novels, often using Scrivener and working with an editor, but aims for brevity and resonance over exhaustive backstory.

4. Barriers, Permission, and Playfulness

• Breaking through self-doubt and seriousness (51:56 - 53:47):
  • Joanna admits feeling unworthy of writing poetry due to perceived weightiness and academic baggage, while Orna urges approaching poetry playfully: "It can be anything you want it to be."
  • Orna emphasizes: "If structure helps, use it. If structure doesn't help, let it go."

5. Compiling Collections: Decisions and Challenges

• Titling and theming collections with AI assistance (54:37 - 56:05):
  • Joanna used AI tools (ChatGPT, Claude) to analyze her stories for themes and generate potential titles, settling on "The Buried and the Drowned."
  • Both authors discuss the importance of personal notes and photos for creating a unique, human layer in their special editions.
• Orna’s approach to poetry collections (59:31):
  • Collections grow organically over time, themed by recurring images or emotions, sometimes bundled for occasions (e.g., holidays, bereavement).

6. Editing & Collaboration

• Importance of professional editing (64:07):
  • Orna insists: "Editing is just as important for poems as it is for fiction and nonfiction. ... And you need an editor who writes and edits poetry."
  • Joanna also works closely with her editor, underscoring the value of another perspective.

7. Special Editions, Audio, and the Kickstarter Model

• Making beautiful print and audio editions (65:02 - 68:49):
  • Both plan special Kickstarter editions with features like foiling, sprayed edges, custom interiors, and bundled audiobooks.
  • Orna, previously hesitant about recording her poetry, is "warming up" to audio as a core offering—citing demand from fans and a growing trend in direct audio sales.
  • Joanna: "People want the bundle with the audio. ... I would have the nice print book on my shelf...but I would prefer to listen than I would to read."

8. Marketing Short Form Writing

• What works for poetry and short stories? (71:05):
  • Orna: Short-form video is huge for poets, but not essential—email lists, direct relationships, and social sharing are key.
  • She warns, "Don’t target general poetry magazines or bloggers...Poetry is a macro genre...You have to research your comparable poems like you will with fiction or nonfiction."
  • Both agree that neither short stories nor poetry are about pursuing massive sales; the real value is creative satisfaction and reaching passionate readers.

9. The Indie Advantage & Personal Success

• The freedom of independent publishing (77:12):
  • Orna celebrates the ability to publish what moves her: “It’s brilliant to be indie... It can be heartbreaking [otherwise]. ... There is a great freedom in that.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Poems Arriving Unbidden
  Orna Ross:
  “Poems kind of come along or they don't... For me, lyrical poems are short and just a single flash of feeling and image coming together, sort of concentrated emotion.” (27:26)

• On the Humanity of Poetry
  "Reading a poem that you've written yourself is probably about as human as it gets." — Joanna Penn (29:22)

• On What Makes a Poem
  Orna Ross:
  "If it doesn’t have an image in it, then it’s not really a poem to me. It has to have emotion and image and after that, the best possible words in the best possible order.” (44:38)

• On Short Story Endings
  Joanna Penn:
  "My short stories, they leave you with a question... and I find that's really important; a bit like the Roald Dahl stories." (32:41)

• On Poetry and Permission
  Orna Ross:
  “If structure helps, use it. If structure doesn’t help, let it go... Playful, I think, is the key word when it comes to rhymes of poetry.” (45:11)

• On Print & Audio Bundles for Fans
  Joanna Penn:
  "...People want the bundle with the audio... I would have the nice print book on my shelf... but I would prefer to listen than I would to read." (69:22)

• On the Definition of Success
  Orna Ross:
  “You can go out knowing that something is... largely for yourself and for the superfans who kind of like everything you do. ... There is absolutely no shame in aiming small sometimes and keep the big guns for the things that are most likely to succeed with a wider audience.” (76:11)

• On the Joy of Indie Publishing
  Orna Ross:
  “It’s brilliant to be indy... There is a great freedom in that that I think is really, really precious.” (77:12)

Important Timestamps

• Crafting and Sharing a Poem about Grief: (26:39 – 29:37)
• Short Stories: Seeds and Structure: (30:39 – 36:16)
• Poetry Writing Process: (36:16 – 39:10)
• Dealing with Self-Doubt in Poetry: (51:56 – 53:47)
• Compiling and Theming Collections with AI Tools: (54:37 – 56:05)
• Kickstarter and Special Editions: (65:02 – 70:30)
• Marketing Poetry and Short Stories: (71:05 – 74:42)
• Discussing Indie Freedom and Success: (76:11 – 77:42)

Additional Resources and Links

• Joanna’s new short story collection: jfpenn.com/buried
• Orna’s poetry and collections: ornaross.com
• Self Publishing with Ally Podcast: selfpublishingadvice.org
• Joanna’s upcoming AI webinars: thecreativepenn.com/live
• Jane Friedman’s “The Bottom Line” newsletter and article: janefriedman.com

Tone and Language

The conversation blends warmth, humor, vulnerability, and encouragement. Both Joanna and Orna speak candidly about personal and creative challenges, celebrate the flexibility and empowerment of indie publishing, and foster an inclusive, down-to-earth outlook towards writing poetry and short stories. Their advice feels practical, human, and rooted in lived creative experience.

Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode is a must for anyone curious about writing, publishing, and embracing the creative journey of poetry and short stories—demystifying both the craft and the business with practical tips, honest reflections, and the encouragement to lean into your unique voice and humanity as an author.