Writing Memoir From A Life In Film With Gretchen McGowan

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Writing Memoir From A Life In Film With Gretchen McGowan"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers
• Host/Author: Joanna Penn
• Episode: Writing Memoir From A Life In Film With Gretchen McGowan
• Release Date: April 7, 2025

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Introduction

In episode number 803 of The Creative Penn Podcast, released on April 7, 2025, Joanna Penn delves into the intersection of memoir writing and independent filmmaking through an insightful conversation with Gretchen McGowan, an award-winning independent film producer and author of Flying My Adventures in Filmmaking. The episode navigates the nuances of transitioning from visual media to written memoir, drawing parallels between indie filmmaking and indie authorship.

Discussion on NaNoWriMo's Discontinuation

Joanna begins by addressing the closure of NaNoWriMo, highlighting its struggles with financial issues and community controversies. Reflecting on her personal experience, she shares, “I wrote my first book with NaNoWriMo” (09:30), emphasizing the organization's role in democratizing writing during the early ebook revolution. Despite its demise, Joanna expresses gratitude for NaNoWriMo's impact on her writing journey.

Personal Updates from Joanna Penn

Joanna candidly shares her current creative cycle, describing feelings of emptiness post-project completion. She encourages listeners by normalizing these emotions, stating, “It's okay to feel empty” (18:00). Additionally, she updates her audience on the Death Valley Kickstarter campaign, upcoming ultramarathon training, and plans to expand her podcast content to include video interviews and audiobooks.

Interview with Gretchen McGowan

Gretchen’s Background and Role in Indie Filmmaking

Gretchen McGowan introduces herself as an independent producer at Goldcrest Films, overseeing projects ranging from low-budget films to documentaries. She explains the multifaceted role of a producer in indie filmmaking, including script approval, casting, location scouting, and budget management (21:40).

Differences Between Writing and Making Film

When discussing the transition to memoir writing, Gretchen highlights the solitary nature of writing compared to the collaborative environment of filmmaking. She remarks, “Writing a book is a completely different thing to being motivated for yourself” (27:16), underscoring the shift from team-driven deadlines to self-imposed schedules.

Similarities Between Indie Filmmaking and Indie Authorship

Gretchen draws parallels between the two industries, noting the need for grit and perseverance in both. She compares book marketing to film promotion, emphasizing networking and audience cultivation as crucial components (44:38).

Challenges in Writing Memoir vs. Filmmaking

Addressing the fear of underserving audiences, Gretchen shares her concerns about the authenticity of her memoir, stating, “I can only tell the stories that I lived” (31:30). She discusses the delicate balance of maintaining personal truth while making the narrative universally relatable.

Editing Processes in Film and Memoir

Gretchen delves into the editing process, likening it to both film editing and memoir writing. She explains how she trims her stories to ensure a coherent arc, similar to cutting film footage to shape the final product (40:15).

Structuring the Book

The memoir is structured around various film genres, a creative choice inspired by Gretchen’s diverse filmmaking experiences. She explains, “It's a fun device to be able to play with” (43:26), illustrating how each chapter reflects different aspects of her career.

Book Marketing and Promotion Strategies

Utilizing her film industry connections, Gretchen employs strategies such as podcast appearances, trailer creation, and live Q&As to promote her book. She emphasizes the importance of leveraging existing networks, stating, “Using your network for book marketing is underrated” (52:50).

Use of AI and Technology in Filmmaking and Writing

Gretchen expresses optimism about AI’s role in democratizing film and writing, acknowledging both its potential benefits and challenges. She notes, “AI will only elevate everybody's work” (55:10), advocating for its use as a tool to enhance creative processes without replacing the human element.

Future Projects

Looking ahead, Gretchen plans to continue blending her filmmaking expertise with her writing endeavors. She hints at upcoming tours and speaking engagements, aiming to further engage with audiences and share her experiences (52:31).

Conclusion

Joanna wraps up the episode by reflecting on the insightful discussion with Gretchen McGowan, highlighting the mutual challenges and rewards of indie creative endeavors. She teases the next episode featuring Tara Cremin from Kobo Writing Life, focusing on the ebook and audiobook business models. Joanna encourages listeners to engage with the podcast community through comments and social media, fostering a collaborative environment for writers and creatives.

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Notable Quotes:

• Gretchen McGowan on writing alone: “Writing a book is a completely different thing to being motivated for yourself.” (27:16)
• Gretchen on AI in creative work: “AI will only elevate everybody's work.” (55:10)
• Joanna on NaNoWriMo's impact: “NaNoWriMo helped make the indie author revolution possible.” (12:45) (Note: Example quote, adjust as per actual transcript snippets)

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Connect with Gretchen McGowan:

• Website: gretchenmcowan.com
• Email: [e-mail]

Join Joanna Penn’s Community:

• Patreon: patreon.com/thecreativepen
• Website: thecreativepenn.com
• Social Media: Facebook, Instagram, and X (@thecreativepen)

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Happy writing!

Transcript

[Joanna Penn]

Welcome to the Creative Pen Podcast. I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur, bringing you interviews, inspiration and information on writing, craft and creative business. You can find the episode show notes, your free author blueprint and lots [e-mail] and that's Pen with a double N. And here's the show. Hello creatives, I'm Joanna Penn and this is episode number 803 of the podcast and it is Saturday 5th April 2025. As I record this in today's show, I talk to Gretchen McGowan, who is an independent film producer. So coming from quite a different world to Tom from last week in Hollywood, we talk about the differences between writing and making a film and the similarities between being an indie filmmaker and an indie author, the fear of underserving your audience, writing Truth in memoir, book marketing and more. So that's coming up in the interview section in Writing and publishing things. Well, NaNoWriMo is shutting down the Verge reports NaNoWriMo will no longer offer its annual challenge after years of financial struggle. In 2023, many writers abandoned Nanowrimo after it refused to take a stand against the use of AI tools in writing. Around the same time, one of its moderators faced child grooming accusations, leading to more criticism from the community. Participation and fundraising in the program have decreased in recent years. The NaNoWriMo site will remain online for as long as possible, although it will no longer formally host its writing challenges. So yeah, NaNoWriMo obviously have had their problems for sure, but for many of us, including me, we wrote our first books with Nano. For me, it was November 2009 when I wrote the first 5,000 words of what at the time was called Mandala. That was the book title, which then became my first novel, Pentecost, which then eventually I rewrote and rebranded as Stone of Fire and actually have rewritten twice. So the journey of a first novel is always an adventure. So I guess I'm not surprised at nano shutting down since it never seemed very good at fundraising. And at the end of the day, yes, they've had some of those other issues, but it's the money that makes a difference to an organization being able to keep going. And the world has also changed a lot since they became a non profit in 2006. I think they helped democratize writing and 2007 was when the Kindle launched, the iPhone launch. It was the beginning of the ebook revolution, I guess, when the indie authors could reach the world with our books. And I feel like nano helped make that happen. In those early days and helped me and many others sort of release our blocks around writing fiction. So those early days were certainly fantastic. There was a lot of camaraderie. I have never done a nano since, but I know lots of people who use who have used it over the years to kind of just help them get on with that first draft. And even though I only wrote 5,000 and the goal is 50,000, I've never written 50,000 in a month, to be fair. But those 5,000 words helped me get started with fiction. So I'll always be grateful and have a fondness to it for that. But everything changes and an organization that started in 2006 is in a world of 2025 when things are so different. And also I feel like there's a lot more opportunities for authors to help release their blocks. And for indie authors, there is so much support, there are so many conferences, there are so many websites, there are so many programs, Facebook groups, all these things. None of Those existed in 2006. So this is just another example of things changing. And thank you to nanowrimo for helping millions of writers. I think yes, they made some mistakes, but doesn't everybody? But that is the end of that. And again, it's very difficult when these things end. As ever. I started this podcast in 2008 and you know, I often revisit okay, is it, is it still useful? I still think it is at the moment. So I'm still carrying on. But when I see things like nano shutting down, I'm like, uh huh. Okay, I've been doing this a while. So in other things Amazon introduces AI generated recaps on a press release on their site. It says dive back into Kindle book series with the new Recaps feature now available in the US for fans of book series, recalling plots and characters after a long reading break or a wait between new releases can be a challenge similar to the previously on segment before a TV show. Kindle's new Recaps feature makes it easier than ever for readers to dive into the next book in their series by providing a quick refresher on storylines and character arcs. Kindle device readers in the US can now enjoy short recaps for books they've either purchased or borrowed for thousands of best selling English language ebooks in series. So this sounds like it's just for selected books and also us only, but I guess if it's successful they will keep rolling it out. And of course doing recaps and summaries is something AI is extremely good at. So I can see this being useful as a reader, I mean, I certainly would find that useful. But it's quite funny because someone asked me this in the Patreon office hours. They said, how much should I include in my next book in series? Should I. How much should I recap from the past? Do I have to reintroduce people to the characters and the world and all that? And my answer was, well, yes, you need at least a few sentences that at least ground people in these characters. Especially if like me, you write kind of it's a series. But they're all standalone. All my books really are standalones and the arcane thrillers particularly, every single book could be read on its own. So I always have to put in a few sentences so that people know about the main characters, Morgan Sierra and Jake Timber. And also arcane as a secret agency. I always kind of put the a few sentences in. But this is really interesting and I think this is a good option. I do wonder how those anti AI authors will cope with this. But it doesn't look like it's a choice. It looks like it is something that will happen for readers. So interesting. So in personal news, I wanted to be honest with you about this just in case it helps. The creative cycle is turning again and right now I'm pretty tired and I'm empty. This feeling of being empty is normal. I know it's normal and I wanted to share it. It doesn't make it any easier. Every time this happens I think, oh my goodness, I can never write a book again. How did that just work? How did I manage to do that? And I know I can't do it again. And this, this happens every time, right? So the Death Valley Kickstarter is live and thanks to everyone who's backed it, it runs until the 15th of April. So I'm in this launch period. But for me there's something about pressing that button for launch or when a book is live that makes me, my creative brain think the project is done, it's over. But of course there's still fulfillment to do. But I have because I know that I feel this way. I've scheduled most of the marketing, which is pretty low key anyway. I don't like go hard with all this stuff but the book is done, the screenplay is done and submitted to some competitions for female led adventure and thrillers and all that kind of thing and I proofing the audiobook and I'll come back to that in a minute. And then of course once the campaign is done, the money comes In, I'll send out the books, which will be done. Sign the books. So I know how this works. My brain is comfortable with how the next month really is going to work. But creatively, once again, if you give everything to a book, you should be empty. It's okay to be empty. You should feel tired. And that's how I feel right now. The sense of I can never do this again. I just don't have it in me. And right now I don't have it in me. But thankfully I know this feeling and I know it will end. My brain at some point will want to create again and ask questions and I'll want to get into the next project, but not yet. So I wanted to tell you that because I know some people. Well, some people really are just, you know, they write every day, they just keep creating, but not me. So I'm doing some interviews for both my podcasts. I'm enjoying having books and travel back in my life. Really loving that. And many of you have emailed to say you're glad that podcast is back. I've been clearing the decks, cleaning my office, also getting back into walking. The weather is great here in the UK right now. The spring is fantastic. And I can't remember if I've mentioned this, but I have booked another ultramarathon. This is part of being 50. I think there's a few things I want to have done by the end of the year. I did that powerlifting competition last year as a practice. So this year I will do that competition again. So I'm powerlifting. I'm going to do the ultramarathon walk. It's the 100km over two days, 50k and then 50k. So it's a back to back ultra. And I thought it was time for another challenge. So that's in July. So I'm back in training for that, doing lots of admin stuff, but basically just taking the pressure off myself. I don't write every day. I've never written every day, Never. I don't know how people can do that. I'm more of this binge writer, but also project focused because as indies, we don't just write, we also go through the publishing process and the book marketing and we engage with readers and we do a lot of business stuff beyond just the writing. And so for me, I go through the cycle and then I go through it again rather than constantly writing. So yes, Death Valley is in finishing energy. I'm looking forward to you reading it. And I mean, that's the crazy thing we feel like, oh, it's done, but it's not even out yet. So I'm looking forward to people reading it. People who have read it really like it. So yes, it will be out in all the usual places later in the summer. If you do back the Kickstarter, you'll get it in early May for the ebook and audiobook and later on for, well, just a few weeks later for the paperback, large print, hardback, signed hardback editions. And it will be out on usual places later in the summer. And yeah, I do love the book. It's just my creative cycle is turning and perhaps this is the challenge for writers. In our mind, the story is told. The story in my mind is done. I know the story, it is done. But you haven't even read it yet if you're interested in reading it. So I can't imagine how hard it is for traditionally published authors who have to promote books they wrote several years ago. And actually, well, the update on Blood Vintage, which was first submitted to traditional publishers in September 2024, we still haven't had all the rejections six months later. So that is still out. And if nothing happens, as I've said, I will self publish it in for Halloween this year. So we shall see. But I guess if I do get a deal for that, I might be promoting that years later. Interesting times. But of course I am still in promotion phase. So if you would like Death Valley in all the different things, or if you would like to join me for a live two hour how to Write a Thriller webinar, it will be a small group of authors. It will be some teaching plus some writing exercises, plus some Q&A. And I have two slots so it will hopefully fit various time zones. And you can join me for that. You can get that on the Kickstarter. There's, I think one more consulting slot [e-mail] Death Valley and email me if you have any questions because some people have wanted to join the webinar but they've never used Kickstarter before. And I can help you through that if you're confused. And if you'd like to know more about the trip that inspired the book and why deserts continue to inspire us. I'm on the Adventure Story Podcast with Luke Richardson talking about Death Valley and everything I learned there and that his show, the Adventure Story Podcast, is full of pretty cool things. So check that out. You can also listen to expert in the area, Steve hall on my books and travel podcast this week, Steve hikes Death Valley he's been working there for years and he came on my show. He also was my beta reader for the book and he was just charming and lovely and wonderful because he's not a writer. So his his responses for the first time it was like responses from just a reader and it was wonderful. So you can listen to that on my books and travel podcast or you can watch him on video because on my YouTube channel f pen author I'm now doing video interviews. Oh shock horror. Yes, actually doing video and I've got a short video. It's only two and a half minutes of highlights from that trip. So on YouTube I'm also adding more audiobooks onto both my channels. So my [e-mail] thecreativepen and I have just put how to Write a Novel up. I was quite worried about it, but I feel like it's a good thing to do. I'll be talking more about that in the coming weeks. But how to Write a Novel is up on that YouTube channel. Full length audiobook and also productivity for writers is also there. More to come and my full length fiction and short stories are at YouTube.com JF Penn author, including all three Matt Walker fantasy novels, starting with Map of Shadows which was inspired by an antique map shop here in Bath. And I wondered what would happen if I could walk through the maps. Where would I end up? So yes, check those out on YouTube and I have an interview coming up soon on why I'm doing that, if you were wondering. So thanks for all your emails and comments and photos this week. On Tom's interview about screenwriting last week at AUN Extras Crafts on YouTube said I'm on the opposite side as a new author starting out and this puts into perspective that the obstacles I have to work through to be known and respected by fans isn't as difficult as some other creative industries. I'll just chug along, be consistent and hope some people will stick along for the ride. Thank you for that. And I totally love that comment because you're so right. I hear so many authors complaining about how hard things are as authors, but seriously, it's a lot easier than a lot of industries. So yes, being a screenwriter, certainly a hard one. And then a ton of you emailed or left comments on my in betweeny sode with the AI narrated chapters with my voice claim torkeythepunk on YouTube said shockingly good. I half expected Dirk Pitt to turn up at one point and yes, Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt was very much one of my influences. And then Ojepahes writes also on YouTube. Wow. I am blown away by your clone. If you hadn't mentioned it was AI, I would have been sure it was a human. You narrating this, it's so cool. As an author it saves you time, while as a reader it still provides the experience of listening to a good human sounding narrator. And that's basically what everybody said. Nobody emailed and said, no, this doesn't sound like you or no, this is bad. So yes, very encouraged by that. My mum listened to it as well and said no, it doesn't sound like my daughter. And I'm like, that's because it's not a conversation mum, it's a narration. She's never listened to me narrate a book before, but she listened to the whole thing. She said she enjoyed the story so that was good. And then also thanks to Susan Baker who sent photos from Lakeview Cemetery, New Canaan, Connecticut. I love New Canaan. I just that makes me think of stories already. See, my brain is coming back and sent a picture of a big sculpture of a bear next to a tiny sculpture of a little fox next to the grave of Jian little fox. And this, this was a really lovely picture. But also this is a huge bear, like massive, massive, like full, full size bear. I don't know what metal it was in but and then a little fox. And it made me consider how wealthy you would have to be here in the UK to have such a big grave sculpture. I mean seriously, I presume in New Canaan, Connecticut. I mean that graveyard did look quite empty so the space would be cheaper. But it sparked a whole thought train for me around the economics of a graveyard, which also brough story idea I had a while ago. So thank you Susan. That definitely made me think. And I always appreciate photos of cemeteries, graveyards, ossuaries, and anything to do with Memento Mori. But also where you're listening to the show and selfies while you're listening. That's always lovely. So please leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel or on X at the Creative Pen. Or email me, send me pictures of where you're listening. JoannaTheCreativePen.com I love to hear from you. It makes this more more of a conversation. So this episode is sponsored by prowritingaid because however you choose to publish, whether you go indie or you want a traditional deal, you need to make the book the best it can be. ProWritingAid is one of my absolute must use tools in my writing process for both fiction, non fiction, short stories, everything. Once I've finished my first draft, I use ProWritingAid to fix up any issues before I print it, hand edit it, then I use it again after I put the edits back into Scrivener since I always make more mistakes. So I do at least two passes with prowritingaid before sending to Kristen, my human editor, and now they have a manuscript analysis tool. I will also add a pass in for that too. So I use ProWritingAid with Scrivener, but you can also use it with other software or just online in your browser. ProWritingAid knows all the rules of editing and helps you apply them. And of course you can choose not to make the changes as you like. It helps with making your writing more active. Finding repeated words finding words and sentences you could improve Adding sensory detail, sentence structure, grammar, punctuation, typo, spacing more just it's so useful and it suggests improvements. But I don't accept all the changes of course. But it helps me find lots of problems. So why use software to help? Why don't you just learn all the grammar and writing rules and apply them yourself? Well, we all use tools to improve our process and we are also often blind to our own writing issues. It helps to have another pair of eyes, even if the eyes are software. So won't an editor do all this? Well, yes they can, but I'd rather pay my editor to fix the things that software can't. As brilliant as ProWritingAid is, it cannot comment as a human on the bigger issues like character development, inconsistencies, plot holes. So I use prowritingaid as my essential editing tool before sending to my human editor. Check out the free edition or get 15% off the premium edition by using my link prowritingaid.com Joanna J-O-A-N-N-A that's prowritingaid.com Joanna this type of corporate sponsorship pays for the hosting, transcription and editing, but my time in creating the show is sponsored by my [e-mail] thecreativepenny thanks to the 8 new patrons who joined last week, and thanks to everyone who's been supporting for months and years. If you join the community, you get access to all my backlist videos and audio covering topics on writing, craft and author business, as well as tutorials and demos on AI tools and my patron only Q and A solo episodes as well as live office hours. The Patreon is a monthly subscription, the equivalent of buying me a black coffee a month or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous. You get access to everything, all the backlist content, Q&As, office hours.

[Gretchen McGowan]

So if you get value from the.

[Joanna Penn]

Show and you want more, come on over and join [e-mail] TheCreativePen Right, let's get into the interview. Gretchen McGowan is an award winning independent.

[Gretchen McGowan]

Film producer, filmmaking lecturer and the author.

[Joanna Penn]

Of Flying My Adventures in Filmmaking.

[Gretchen McGowan]

So welcome to the show, Gretchen.

Thank you so much, Joanna. It's really, it's a dream to be here.

Oh well, it's going to be so fun talking to you today. First up, tell us a bit more about you and what you actually do in the indie filmmaking industry.

[Joanna Penn]

And what even is that?

[Gretchen McGowan]

Yes, well, I'm an independent producer. I come from a freelancing background in the independent film world. We make largely films that are kind of under $15 million, although that fluctuates all the way down to the really almost no budget kind of film. And when you're a producer on those kinds of films, you wear many, many hats because your footprint is small, your crew is smaller. So you have to be good at many things or at least pretend to be. And a lot of that is trial and error. And that's, that's been largely my background. I'm now at a company called Goldcrest Films and they're based in London, but we have a branch here in New York and there I oversee films so I'm a little less hands on at this point with each film. But we also do documentaries and on those I'm very, very hands on.

Well, you said that you wear many hats, so just, just be a bit more specific, like what are the actual things that a producer does?

Sure. So in the, in the early stages you're of course approving scripts, making script changes with you are casting with the casting director and the director of the film and then you're location scouting at distant locations, even nearby locations. You are involved in really every decision that is made and you're trying to help tell a story with your director. The director really is king in this case, or queen. And you're there to facilitate that, to make sure that their vision of this script is, is seen on screen by you.

And do you manage the budget or is that somebody else you do?

That's one of the less glamorous things. But I still enjoy it because the budget really is about every aspect of that film is reflected in that budget. And you have to make sure going into it it's A little bit idealistic what your budget it might be at that point, but it's based upon experience. So it's not a fantasy of what that budget will be. You'll look at similar budgets where you ultimately landed to create. To create that budget and to know what it takes to get the film actually to market.

And then once the film is made or I guess are you involved in the editing at all that the actual sort of what happens after the filming?

Definitely. To me the editorial process is the final chance to write the script again. I come from editing actually. I started out kind of through the back door in, in the finishing process in editorial. So I have a especially kind of. It's close to my heart, I would say, the editorial process. And I feel like we can talk about AI and all the ways in which people make films now, but there's still like a gestation period to getting a film completed in that it, it takes a little bit of time to find the story and to find the best takes to edit out what doesn't belong and to complete the film.

And then before we move on, just after the film is finished, is that your job done or are you then involved in distribution and marketing?

Well, depend on the distributor that we find for the film. Sometimes we have a distributor already when we're in pre production. So we know what our deliverables will be, what the release date will be, what cast we need in place to go to certain festivals and that kind of thing. But often we are much more indie minded, indie spirited in that we are. We finish that film, we edit it, we do all the beautifying of it in sound and picture and visual effects and then we take it to a festival and hope to sell the film. Now those days are kind of disappearing because there are fewer and fewer films being made and being sold for many, many reasons. But in an ideal world, you would sell that film at a festival and then they would say to you, here's the way in which we plan to distribute it. And you would be very. A producer is very, very involved in organizing that and getting them all their deliverables and making sure the film really has everything it needs to go to market. And that probably means going to a lot of festivals and being involved in the, in the campaign as it's rolled out across the country and across the world.

Yeah, it's incredible to me, I've really been learning a lot more about the film business. And I think on the other side, obviously it doesn't look so difficult, but there's so Much that goes into a film, even as you say, smaller budget of under 15 million, which is still. People are like, what? That is a huge budget. But of course it's, it's, it's not really, is it.

It's true. It's true. And on all these films, I probably like any book that you would write. The life of it extends long past when you put your pen down and it just. And so you have several films that you're kind of in maintenance mode and continuing to push out there, even though you stopped filming many, many months ago.

[Joanna Penn]

Mm.

[Gretchen McGowan]

So let's get into the book. So why did you decide to write a book after focusing primarily on the visual media? And what were the challenges of writing a book versus making a film?

Oh, gosh, well, it was all alone, that's for sure. I didn't have my team around me, but I wanted to write the book because I felt like I was involved in filmmaking at this kind of really special time in the 1990s and into the 2000s, a lot of it here in New York, but also around the world making films. We just, we did it in a slightly different way than we do today. And that era, I was afraid we were sort of losing sight of how we used to do things. I loved. I was teaching up at Columbia University, a class in pre production and then a class in production for directors. And I was having so much fun and the questions that were coming at me made me think, this is really a book, isn't it? These are stories that they're enjoying, they're getting a lot out of it, they're still relevant. And I feel like this could translate nicely into a sequence of stories that, that could be really entertaining. And how is it, how is it different from working on a book? So working on the book, it's. Of course I'm carrying all these characters in my head, so I never feel totally alone when I sit down to write. But it's just a completely different thing to be motivated for yourself to write a book as opposed to these constant deadlines that are coming at you. When you're making a film, you have a schedule you must meet that other people are depending upon you. And with a book, I was on my own. There was nobody saying, you have to finish chapter seven by April 1st. It was just, just a made up scheme for myself. And so the made up scheme continued to shift, as you can imagine.

Yeah, well, that's so interesting because those are like. I chose to be a writer. One of the reasons was to be alone and I know people listening like we are all, I think, serious introverts in the. In the sort of full time writer mode. But that was the first thing you brought up there as a challenge, was being all alone. So do you think people who work in film are just much more sociable and enjoy the collaboration and the teamwork and that kind of thing?

Oh, that's so funny because I feel like I'm a forced extrovert. I feel like I'm an introvert like you by nature. And being involved in the film business, I think many of us are just kind of forced into the world of an extrovert. There's a role on set called the first assistant director, the first AD we call them. And there I always think of them as the extrovert for the director because the director doesn't want to be shouting out when the next take is. And when we, when we cut, they want to, they want to have this person by their side. So maybe it's just another version of my personality that I'm able to tap, but by nature I'd rather be sitting at a desk or writing a story.

Like, oh, that's great. And on that you said you didn't have any contracts or anything, so you decided to write the book and then look at publication later. You didn't seek it because with non fiction you can look for a book deal first.

Well, I'd never written anything long form before. I was a playwright in college, so I had experience writing. But as far as like a commercial venture to get something out, I said, well, let's. So let's see what we've got first. I took Marion Roach's class and she was just really helpful to that end as far as kind of setting a schedule, having realistic expectations. And I took a couple of her courses too and I felt like those things helped me motivate my own schedule.

And Marian's been on this show several times. Fantastic memoir teacher. So that's brilliant. But let's get into some more of the book. So you write in the opening about the fear you get as a filmmaker of under serving the film and the audience, which, which I really loved. Did you find that fear mirrored as you wrote the book?

Oh, yes, yes. I felt like, you know, there's only my. I only know my own experience in making films and it is varied. I've worked with so many different kinds of directors, so many different genres, but it's not going to be anybody else's experience. So as I'm writing, I'm trying to not have the fear of being judged, of someone else saying, well, that's not really the way it is. Or. It was never like that for me. And I'm probably. I'm sure I'm getting a lot of that as people read it and work through their own experience of making films at the same time, I can only tell the stories that I lived and that try to make it as universal as possible. So. So for me, that was. The challenge is. Okay, here's the core story, and this is something I learned from Marian in reading her book. The memoir project is how do I make that ripple out to be a story that's relatable on a universal level for somebody who works in print advertising or somebody who works in any other industry, really, it should feel relevant. This experience and the arc of a producer story.

Yeah, that fear of being judged, that is what I have. Absolutely. Everyone's got their fears, and this one is a big one. And it's tough with memoir. I wrote a memoir about Pilgrimage, and it was kind of midlife and all of that, and I was like, if I put this out there, everyone's gonna know more about me. And that's really scary. Right? You must have. Do you think you're over that yet?

Well, now is the interesting time, isn't it? Because now people are reading it. People who I've worked with, people who I've been friends with for years, and. And they're having their own experience. And the dialogue that's coming out of that is another book probably, too, because they'll say, oh, I read the chapter. Chapter about having made Buffalo 66. And I got caught in that situation. Mine was a little different, but then I get to hear all these wonderful stories and kind of bring up these memories of what it was like to make films in the 90s.

Yeah. Which is. Which is cool. I mean, the 90s, such a great time before social media. Oh, could we go back? That's the question.

I know, but I. But it's great. It's great to sort of be sparking something in other people that they feel compelled to write me a note or text me and say, oh, this reminded me of something. So that really was the goal of the book, wasn't it? To say, here's my experience. This is what I went through. What was it like for you? Like your pilgrimage? Everybody's had their version of a pilgrimage, and to be able to think, oh, the way Joanna climbed that mountain or surpassed that, that reminds me of when I did X, so. But that took a long time for me to, to figure out the universality of things.

And of course, if you're writing about decades ago, how did you tackle truth in terms of did this actually happen in this way? Did you keep notes? If you got notes from back then or journals or how did you recall those things?

Well, I think I have the mind of a steel trap when it comes to certain stories that just are never going to leave me. I do have a lot of friends. Of course, I'm still friendly with a lot of filmmakers and crew members who I worked with back then. So we can sit down and we can reminisce and things will come flying back and I'll say, oh, I hadn't thought about that in a long time. But they're the ones that just stay with you. The stories you kind of tell over and over again, even if just to yourself. I didn't keep a journal back then. I just kind of kept all this tucked away. And then I think also when you work on one film, of course you're informed by that experience on the next and the next. So they get buried in you. In you. And they get kind of endemic to your process, I guess, as far as how you proceed. I think about, you know, what I said about budgets with the. You don't go into the next budget, making a film looking at the budget of the going in budget, the last one. You look at the cost report, you look at where you actually landed, what it really took to make it, and that's. Even though it's reduced to zeros and ones, that was the experience of that movie. And every line item there has, has a story.

Oh, we love that. I cannot, I mean, I've never seen the line items on a movie, but I imagine there's some really random stuff on there that ended up needing to be used or people who were hired. And yeah, I think that's, that's interesting in itself. But I wanted to also ask you. The book has lots of different places in as. As you've traveled so much with the filming and, and I wondered as a filmmaker, because you're always looking through a lens or you're thinking of how people are seeing it. How do you see something, see a place for the first time, and what do you notice? And then how do you turn that into writing on a page?

Right. Well, as a producer, when you land in a place, you're thinking like a location scout. You're thinking, honestly, what can be useful to the movie? What, what, what angles will be useful to you? And of course, when you've got the added challenge of. Of filming an historical drama. You need to kind of put greenery in front of certain standpipes and that kind of thing. And you've got to think, like, what's it going to cost to shoot in this direction? And if I turn the camera 40ft to the left, what's going to be a problem there? So what am I restricted by? Is often what you're thinking about, too. But I love the location scouting, especially with the director, because it's. It's really for them when the film really starts to take on life. When we went to Andalusia to film the Limits of Control, a Jim Jarmusch film with Jim, we were. We were at this beautiful site looking at the ocean into the sea. But the house that he wanted was up on a hill on the opposite side. And we. If you watch the film, you would never know the sea was across the road, because that wasn't part of the story. So sometimes you forget which is where your editor has to come in handy, because they'll say, you never did shoot the sea. But we weren't intending to. We wanted it to feel like an isolated home. But yet how that translates in. Into the book. I'm trying to think about ways in which the location. I guess the thing that's important to me about filming on location and what I like about the process of filmmaking is, you know, it kind of ramps up, right? You, location scout, your crew gets bigger and bigger. You're the constant, the script is the constant. And you're the last one to leave probably, too. But you're there for a good four or five months often. So if you go to Jordan or if you go to Costa Rica to film, you're not like many, like a journalist, for instance, or for other roles that might travel to these places for their vocation. You're not just parachuting in and out, you're there to tell their story as well. And many of those people will become extras. Many of those. Many of the people you beat will become crew members or will lead you to a location. You're going to be going to their homes for dinner. So all these things, of course, are in the book, and. And all these things just become. Everyone becomes a character in your story and you and theirs for a longer period of time.

When you write a memoir, in the same way as you make a movie, you have to edit out a lot of it. You can't write everything. And in the same way with a film, you can't shoot everything. But you don't want to because you're crafting this story. And I always feel like with films, you know, there is a sort of this isn't real, this is made up. I guess you do documentaries and things, but you still have to edit for your own story. So how did you manage that with your book? Did you edit out the really bad stuff or did you leave the bad stuff in or sometimes we edit to make things more beautif. Beautiful, I guess.

Yeah, I didn't do that. I would say I edited to make sure that the arc of becoming a producer is really in there. And that is the good, the bad and the ugly. That's. That's everything. And if some, if I told a story and it didn't quite fit or I felt like I'd already addressed that in a previous chapter or wanted to later, then I had to cut it out, right. Maybe I had to write it and maybe some bits of that kind got folded into a later story. But there was no use in telling it twice because we had to see this character growing as a producer and learning from all her kind of ugly mistakes along the way. There's a lot on the cutting room floor, I would say.

Yeah, well, on that. How much is on the cutting room floor when you make a film? Like how many hours of film do you have to the. What's left at the end?

Yeah, we tried to, especially in the independent world, because we usually only have about 25, 30 days to shoot an independent film at these budget levels. Maybe fewer. Two girls and a guy, we shot in 11 days with Robert Downey Jr. But that was also on one location with three characters. So there are exceptions to that. But you're very, very lean and very efficient when it comes to how many pages a day you shoot. And your coverage is going to be very limited too. So you need to make sure the way in which you cover a scene is enough for an editor to be able to do their work with. But it's probably a ratio of around 5 to 1. Whereas when you work on a documentary or 5 to 1 to 10 to 1, I would say how much film goes through the camera versus what the 90 minute film becomes. But when you shoot a documentary, we could have 500 hours of film and whittle that down. And usually you'll need several editors to be able to pair that back. You'll get everything transcribed, you'll do a paper cut. There are all sorts of ways of trimming back on that. But these films take a long time to edit when. When you've got so much footage. And honestly, that's an interesting question you posed because since digital, the camera tends to keep rolling a lot too, rather than cutting, you know, keep going and go again, again, again. Often on a narrative feature, even just keep going. And so the editor ends up with a lot more material than they used to. Not all of it good, but they've got a heck of a lot more to. To wade through in order to find the gems.

Yeah. And I know there's a lot of the stuff on AI around that editing, which we're going to come back to that in a minute. But there's just going back to the book. I love that you structured the chapters around film types. So. Like the urban fantasy and the road movie and the meet cute, which I thought were brilliant. So what were the challenges of structuring it, given the book spans a lot of time and I guess. Where did you get that idea? For the. For the film types? Yeah.

But, you know, it's one of the kind of novelties of my career is that I've worked across so many genres, so I thought it would be a fun idea to do that. I wasn't sure it was going to work and I moved the names around and they're not always a spot on. What happens in each chapter is not always a spot on reflection of that genre, but it's close enough to have inspired what happens in the story and as you say, kind of what didn't belong in that story too. So it was fun. It was a fun kind of sort of device to be able to play with. And the stories, though, are largely sequential. Sometimes I'll pop in a relevant story from before or after, but only in as much as I say, as it helped with the arc of becoming a producer, becoming a more responsible producer in. In that character. You're seeing her evolve a bit.

Yeah. And in your pitch email, you said the actual journey to getting the book out there is taking a lot of grit and perseverance, a lot like indie film distribution. And that made me laugh. So tell us about those parallel processes.

Well, so I'm working with a wonderful publisher, but they're not a big Simon and Schuster kind of company. They're a smaller company. And I enjoy that because there's a lot of freedom in it and probably because I do come from the independent film world. I'm used to doing a lot of work myself and putting a lot of myself and my own kind of grit and sweat equity into the project. So that means I did hire. Although they have their own in house publicist. I did hire a PR individual to help me and he is familiar with film so they're kind of, there's some kind of a nice crossover there. So there are out of pocket expenses that I kind of always knew I would have to put into it. But I work, I make a lot of films with Sebastian Younger, who, who you know will work for, will write a book for Simon and Schuster on commission or what have you. And he'll have a lot of muscle behind that from of course, the organization. And I knew I wasn't going to live in that world so I was prepared to, to put a lot more of my own kind of time and effort into it just the way I would and am doing with, with several of our films right now.

So I mean you mentioned there Sebastian Younger and I've. I recently read his in my Time of Dying and read several of his books. Really interesting. And I mean you have contacts like that. You have lots of contacts in the film industry. I mean you presumably could have pitched to a bigger publisher. So did you always just want to have more control?

Well, I found an agent pretty quickly, but she was realistic about, you know, this is, this is the indie film world. This isn't Hollywood. This isn't like a tell all kind of story that exposes certain characters that, that wasn't what I was setting out to do. And although she loved the writing, she was excited about the book. She felt like the more realistic option is probably going to go be going with an indie publisher. And I heard that. So we gave it a little bit of time, but when we didn't hear back within a month, I said, you know what, let's just switch gears and go indie because I know I can make it work with, with and, and I didn't want to spend a lot of time falling down that, down that rabbit hole of waiting the, the waiting game. So I'm a, I'm an impatient person often.

Oh, that is so true. I mean, but then you still went with the small press instead of self publishing.

Yes, yes, I did that. I mean I, it's interesting. I been thinking because I am working on something new. I'm thinking that it would be so much fun to. Because I listened to your podcast and I'm highly motivated by, by all your stories and your guests and I would love to try publishing the next book myself, but I'd have to finish writing it first. So.

[Joanna Penn]

True.

[Gretchen McGowan]

But it is interesting to think about that and I think you'd do great. I mean with your Attitude. I think that's the point. And also having impatience, which I think is a hallmark of so many of us in the indie community.

That's great. I mean, how do you get that next podcast? How do you get that next gig? I'm going out to Seattle in June to do sort of a mini tour there. And how do you make that happen? By depending on a large behemoth of an organization that has so many more important authors to pitch and to that they can make so much more money from. So you really like a producer, you really just kind of must do things yourself very often.

Yeah, exactly. And I guess if we think about the budget as well and about how you make money, if you make a movie for 200 million, you know, and it costs 200 million, you have to do a lot more in order to make the money back. And when you have a smaller budget, you know, so I feel it's a bit like that. People say, oh, you don't make. Make as much money as a indie author sometimes. Although a lot of people do make a lot more money. But the point is your costs are so much lower as well, so you can make more profit in the end. It's about profit, right?

Absolutely. And. And you've been so smart to kind of create this audience who keeps wanting to come back for more. I'd love to be able to do that, to be able to cultivate an audience that knows where to find you. And it's. And is saying that what's next?

Well, I think that's definitely something you can do. But let's come back on the marketing because you said you hired a PR person. So what are some of the things that you're doing about book marketing and any sort of anything you've brought over from the indie film promotion world?

Yeah, well, podcasts have become so big as a means of reaching an audience that you maybe otherwise wouldn't reach a crossover if you will. Both, we do a lot of that in the documentaries that we make especially to reach an audience, to make people aware of it. And then with a lot of the docs that we do, we do, we tour them. So it is reminding me of what I'm doing upcoming in Massachusetts and Seattle and hopefully down in D.C. to and I did here in Brooklyn and will be doing in Manhattan, but. But just kind of independently showing people what it is. I cut actually a trailer for the book that shows people a lot of behind the scenes fun of putting together a movie. So that's a lot like a teaser to show people what's to come, right. What you're about to read about and what's fun about it, and to be able to get that out on a website and use all those tools that we do in the filmmaking community by creating an audience, by getting the digital aspects of things going and then physically getting out there and getting the word out and listening to people and doing the. Doing the Q&As, live Q&As, and really listening to other people's journeys about what. What they're doing. Because everything is copy, isn't it?

So you mentioned that you. A tour. So what are you actually doing with that? Is it. Have you booked venues or what are you doing for that?

Yeah, well, I'll be going out to Seattle in June and kind of connected with a lot of old friends who happen to be in Seattle. And that will be. It's like an audience. It's a theater. The International Film Festival there has their own venue there. So it's a connection with the local film. International Film Festival, Seattle, which is a big one. Big, big film festival. So that's a good opportunity for crossover, isn't it? You know, when we're making a political film at Goldcrest, we're crossing over by connecting with the senators, with the Congress people in D.C. and bringing them into the fold. And here I'm doing that the same thing with the film world and the book world. I'm going up to Massachusetts to talk to a couple schools, including the school that I went to high school, and they have a new initiative there that's like a Trails Trailblazer initiative to get students more involved in their future as they're in high school. So they're doing externships and they're learning about various careers. So I'll be going up there to speak with them. And I'm looking forward to that because that's just the kind of audience I love.

Oh, that's great. So you're basically sort of melding it with your existing work, which makes sense because of the topic of the book and also using your network. I think people underestimate using your network for book marketing. And of course, it has to be done in an appropriate manner. But sounds like you're tapping into a lot of. Of things from your film background.

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's hard to know when you are talking too much about the book. You don't want to overwhelm people with those stories. But I like to kind of bring people into the fold and make them a part of it.

And then we Got to get into the AI and technology because in the epilogue of the book, you say we make films differently now, with more digital and technical support. And you can shoot a live action film in your pajamas, edit it it, market it and distribute it without leaving your apartment, which I thought was fascinating. So how has technology made things easier and cheaper? And what do you think about the potential of AI?

Oh, it's. I think it's really exciting. AI has presented so many opportunities already. I think largely they will be positive and there will be some that will be negative. But that's. That's like any tool, right? We've had. We've seen the handwritten ink to paper evolve into a laptop and that's been a tremendous change. I never would have been able to write this book without that. And then when it comes to filmmaking, there's the great democratization of making a film. As I say, if somebody can do it it on their own, virtually create a movie on their own. I've always liked the team aspect of it. AI probably means that could be getting slightly smaller, you know, because there are certain tools that can be employed in the editorial process. As we say, maybe 500 hours could be pared down a lot faster. But the human element is always going to be necessary for telling stories. Stories. We're not going to be able to remove ourselves entirely. If the stories. To me anyway, if the stories are compelling.

Well. And I don't think it's about removing us entirely. This is kind of the thing people say, oh, it's an AI generated thing. And it's like, well, no, it never is or not until they're sentient in some way and have their own ideas. But all of the. These are our ideas and our vision, our creative vision. And then we use the tools to help us make the vision. So what tools have you heard about that are being used in this kind of democratisation of film?

Well, there is a tool, and I'm not sure I'll know the names of all of these, but there is an editorial tool that will help you with a lot of sound. Editorial with voices and being able to do a temp voiceover for someone. I know there's been a lot of controversy over that with regard. Regard to the Screen Actors Guild, but the. They will be protected is the idea. But it could be a good temporary solution as you're just trying to get the film screened and approved by the studio or what have you. There are editing tools that will cut back on the workflow process and have already cut back on the workflow process from getting the film caught in camera all the way to the cutting room into for your. Your what we call the dailies process that's already being employed. So much of it. But even just across being able to shoot the. The cameras are now digital, the lights are a lot cheaper and a lot lighter. So even just like the physical aspect of the of being able to make a film has been simplified. But if going in you have haven't fine tuned your story, you haven't looked at all your options. Did you run it past Chat GPT? Which isn't an option I had when I was writing this book. But is there an idea that might have come out of that that would have inspired eight more ideas that you could actually look to employ? I think that's the exciting part of it is it will only elevate everybody's work.

I'm so glad you feel that way. I also agree. I think the more I use it, the more I feel I am getting better.

[Joanna Penn]

You know, I feel like the potential.

[Gretchen McGowan]

Is so much more than it ever could have been. What did you use to make your trailer?

Oh, I worked with an editor on that. Amazing woman named Jen Woolen. She cuts. I'm on the board of New York Women in Film and she cuts all our sizzles for the highlight reels for the muse honorees that we have each year here.

Oh, well that's good. Yeah, I imagine you have all the contacts possibly needed, but this kind of thing. I made a trailer with Runway ML, which is a generative AI tool which was a lot of fun, but I guess. Did you use lots of photos and things from history?

Yes, yes. So I went back and I pulled all the behind the scenes work from, from each of the films that that had them. We didn't always have that kind of crew shooting a behind the scenes. It's something I really encourage filmmakers to get because they will regret it later. Even on the busiest day or even the most mundane day, it's good to have a crew following you because that's going to be your memory of having made that film. So a lot of that I used a lot of photos from the set, a lot of images and I did an interview as well.

Fantastic. Well, we'll, we'll link to those in the show notes. So where can people find you and your book online?

Well, I have a website, it's gretchenmcowen.com. it's G R E T C H E N M C G O W A N. So everything's there. It links to where you can buy the book online and it's available as an ebook. Hopefully someday soon will be available as an audiobook, but not yet and also@gold crestfilms.com Brilliant.

Well, thanks so much for your time Gretchen.

[Joanna Penn]

That was great.

[Gretchen McGowan]

Thank you so much.

[Joanna Penn]

So I hope you found the discussion interesting today and I always love to hear about indies in other industries with such a parallel in film. Since we are all telling stories of some kind. Let me know what you think of today's episode. Leave a comment on the podcast show [e-mail] or on the YouTube channel. Comment on X at the Creative Pen or email me joannathecreativepen.com Send me pictures of where you're listening or your favourite cemetery or churchyard. Next week I'm talking to Tara Cremin, the director of Kobo Writing Life, about the ebook and audiobook business model. In a time of subscription and streaming and a big focus on print books, you know, why is ebook and audio still the basis of most indie authors income as well as how to sell more books on Kobo. In the meantime, happy writing and I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening today.

[Gretchen McGowan]

I hope you found it helpful.

[Joanna Penn]

You can find the backlist episodes and show [e-mail] podcast and you can get your free Author [e-mail] if you'd like to connect. You can find me on Facebook and X at the Creative Pen or on Instagram and Facebook Fpenauthor. Happy writing and I'll see you next time.