How Trump Was Persuaded to Regulate A.I.

Summary

The Daily – “How Trump Was Persuaded to Regulate A.I.”
Date: June 4, 2026
Host: Michael Barbaro
Guest: Trip Mickell, New York Times tech correspondent

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Overview

This episode explores the behind-the-scenes story of how President Trump, known for a hands-off approach to technology policy, ended up signing an executive order to add federal oversight to artificial intelligence (AI) development. Trip Mickell details the key players, crises, and competing political pressures that shifted the administration’s stance, and previews the brewing debate about the future of AI regulation in America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Executive Order: A Surprising Shift

• What Happened: On Tuesday, to widespread surprise, Trump signed an executive order requiring AI companies to share their models with the government before public release.

  • Purpose: Government review for software vulnerabilities, enabling preemptive security patches to avert cyberattacks.

    “AI companies will share their models voluntarily with the government about 30 days before they're released publicly so that the government can review… figure out if they're in any software vulnerabilities…” (Trip Mickell, 02:23)

• Significance: Marks a major policy reversal for Trump, whose previous tech regulation stance had been “entirely hands off.”

2. Background: The Trump Doctrine and Initial Resistance

• Philosophy Shaped by David Sacks:
  • Sacks, a venture capitalist and Trump’s AI advisor, championed minimal regulation to help the US outpace competitors, particularly China.

    “The AI industry is a beautiful baby. And you don't want rules to get in the way of a beautiful baby when it's taking its first step.” (Trip Mickell, paraphrasing Sacks, 04:38) “If the US continues to lead in AI, we will remain the most powerful country. If we don’t, we could fall behind… China.” (Trip Mickell, 06:00)

• Trump’s Early Actions:
  • On taking office, Trump repealed Biden-era AI safety rules, justifying it by the need to “make America great again,” giving AI free rein (04:25).

3. Catalyst: The “Mythos Model” and Security Panic

• Anthropic’s Mythos Announcement (April 2026)
  • Mythos, a new AI model, was demonstrated to be remarkably good at exposing vulnerabilities in existing software—prompting fears about weaponization by bad actors.
  • Anthropic withheld public release, only giving early access to select companies.

    “Anthropic said that it was so dangerous that it couldn't even release it to the public...” (Trip Mickell, 07:18)

• National Security and Economic Concerns:
  • Heavyweights like Microsoft and JPMorgan’s Jamie Dimon urgently lobbied the administration to take the threat seriously.

    “You have figures like Jamie Dimon putting calls into the administration and saying, look, this is a risk for banks.” (Trip Mickell, 08:21)

4. A White House Battle: Internal and External Pressures

• Emergence of Pro-Regulation Faction:

  • Treasury Secretary Scott Besant and Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, worried about political fallout from a cyber disaster, argued for regulatory action.

    “If there is a cyber attack... if the administration continues to have a hands off approach, it will look like it enabled that.” (Trip Mickell, 08:27)

• Drafting and Stalling:

  • The team floated a system akin to an “FDA for AI” (11:46), triggering backlash from Silicon Valley, especially after public comments from National Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett.
  • As a result, Trump postponed signing the order after personal calls with figures like Mark Zuckerberg, Marc Andreessen, and David Sacks, who opposed the move.

    “Don’t sign this. This is a bad idea.” (David Sacks to Trump, paraphrased by Trip Mickell, 12:58) “I postponed it. I think it gets in the way... I don't want to do anything that's going to get in the way of [our lead over China.]” (Trump, 13:10)

5. Compromise and Final Executive Order

• Final Negotiations:

  • Persistent pressure from Besant and Wiles led to a watered-down order:
    • Review period cut from 90 days to 30 days (14:50)
    • Clear language that forbids mandatory licensing or permitting

    “There’s a line added about how nothing in the executive order can be construed to authorize a mandatory government licensing...” (Trip Mickell, 14:52)

  • Sacks approved these concessions; Trump quietly signed the order with minimal public attention.

• Real Impact:

  “It is small by design... but it shows how the ground has shifted in Washington on AI policy. The door has now been cracked open to a bigger conversation...” (Trip Mickell, 15:50)

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The Political Debate Over AI Regulation

1. Populists on the Right

• Steve Bannon and Moral Concerns:

  • Bannon frames AI as fundamentally at odds with a free society, stoking skepticism of “brologarchs.”

    “Artificial intelligence and a free society are absolutely and totally incompatible. Full freaking stop.” (Steve Bannon, 19:33)

  • Moral arguments: Pastors report AI challenging family bonds and the “moral fabric” of America.

    “This pastor is concerned about how many… might wind up in the same situation in the future…” (Trip Mickell, 21:21)

  • Actions: Bannon and religious leaders sent a letter urging stronger government action than Trump’s order.

• Desire for Stronger Action:

  • Many on the right urge measures like Senator Hawley’s proposal for a mandatory national AI review board (23:21).

2. Populists on the Left

• Bernie Sanders’ Radical Proposals:

  • Sanders calls for a moratorium on launching new AI data centers and proposes a 50% public ownership stake in big AI firms via an “AI Sovereign Wealth Fund.”

    “Given the speed at which AI is developing… would you support a moratorium on the development of new AI data centers?” (Sanders, 24:23) “The US should get a 50% share... and that the entire country should share the profits...” (Trip Mickell, 25:56) “Bottom line, the future of AI and the fate of humanity must not be decided behind closed doors by the wealthiest people in the world.” (Bernie Sanders, 26:17)

• Industry Response:

  • Silicon Valley has reacted with “shock and ridicule,” labeling it “unacceptable socialism.” (Trip Mickell, 27:05)

3. Tech Industry’s Reluctant Shift

• Growing Public Distrust:
  • AI companies sense a “trust deficit” with the public, which has been exacerbated by recent high-profile acts of protest, including an arson attempt at Sam Altman’s home.

    “It’s got a trust deficit... polling data... a very violent act... a Molotov cocktail thrown at Sam Altman's home.” (Trip Mickell, 27:31)

• OpenAI’s New Stance:
  • Days after the executive order, OpenAI calls for congressional action—despite an industry history of lobbying for minimal oversight.
• Ambivalence:
  • OpenAI’s public push for regulation appears inconsistent with private efforts to back deregulation-friendly candidates.

    “At the same time... Greg Brockman is spending money to try to ensure that the people being elected to public office support a relatively hands off approach...” (Trip Mickell, 29:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We have to grow that baby and let that baby thrive.” (David Sacks, 04:25)
• “Anthropic said that it was so dangerous that it couldn't even release it to the public...” (Trip Mickell, 07:18)
• “If there is some use of this technology in a way that shocks the American public... it will look like [the administration] enabled that.” (Trip Mickell, 08:27)
• “Don’t sign this. This is a bad idea.” (David Sacks, as relayed by Trip Mickell, 12:58)
• “Artificial intelligence and a free society are absolutely and totally incompatible. Full freaking stop.” (Steve Bannon, 19:33)
• “The future of AI and the fate of humanity must not be decided behind closed doors by the wealthiest people in the world.” (Bernie Sanders, 26:17)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:23 | Trip Mickell explains the executive order’s requirements | | 04:25 | Trump’s philosophy shift: “beautiful baby” metaphor | | 06:41 | How the Mythos model triggered Washington’s wake-up call | | 11:46 | Comparison to FDA for AI and Silicon Valley’s backlash | | 13:10 | Trump cancels the order after speaking to Sacks and tech leaders | | 14:50 | Compromise: 90-day window cut to 30 days; anti-mandate language included | | 15:50 | Trip Mickell: order is “small by design,” but opens the door for bigger regulation discussions | | 19:33 | Steve Bannon’s hardline declaration: “AI and a free society are absolutely and totally incompatible” | | 24:23 | Bernie Sanders: proposes moratorium on new AI data centers | | 25:42 | Sanders’ “AI Sovereign Wealth Fund” outlined | | 27:31 | Trip Mickell: AI industry faces a public trust deficit, notes Molotov cocktail attack on Sam Altman | | 29:08 | Barbaro questions whether industry calls for regulation are PR stunts, points out industry-backed hands-off lobbying | | 31:40 | Trip Mickell: Social media’s unregulated legacy as a worrying parallel | | 32:11 | Economic dominance of AI cited as a reason for slow regulation: “one third… to half of GDP growth” quotes Mickell |

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The Big Picture & Closing Insights

Despite persistent resistance and a watered-down final product, Trump's executive order marks a turning point: AI regulation is now a mainstream policy debate in Washington. The episode uncovers the internal realpolitik, economic anxieties, public moral concerns, and populist anger driving the conversation. With both the far right and left agitating for sterner measures, and public unease mounting, AI companies now face growing pressure to accept more oversight—whether voluntarily or not.

Yet, as Mickell and Barbaro note, history suggests it may take a devastating AI-triggered crisis to force comprehensive regulation—if it happens at all.

“It has so far. And it’s got a really big bully stick… a third to more than half of GDP growth at this moment is coming from artificial intelligence… But… anxieties about what this technology is going to do… If those pain points begin to bleed... into a broader swath of the public, then the pressure... will be impossible to ignore.” (Trip Mickell, 32:11–33:31)

Transcript

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[Michael Barbaro]

hey, it's Michael. Before we start the show, we want to let you know that our colleague, Pulitzer Prize winning culture critic and host of the Times podcast, Cannonball, Wesley Morris, is going to be hosting a live event next week at the Tribeca Festival. Wesley will be talking to the actress and activist Cynthia Nixon. They'll be having a conversation about great works of art about New York, which makes sense given Nixon's starring role in arguably one of them, Sex and the City. It promises to be a very fun

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The show is Friday, June 12th at 6:00pm and you can get your [e-mail] audio that's tribecafilm.com audio okay, here's today's show from the New York Times. I'm Michael Barbaro. This is THE Daily. Today, the story of how President Trump begrudgingly accepted that the most transformational technology of our time, artificial intelligence, requires government oversight. My colleague Trip Mickell takes us inside the dramatic White House battle that has played out over the past few weeks and previews the coming fight over just how far federal regulation of AI should go. It's Thursday, June 4th.

Tripp, welcome back to THE Daily.

[Trip Mickell]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Michael Barbaro]

I want you to explain exactly what President Trump did a few days ago on Tuesday.

[Trip Mickell]

On Tuesday morning, as I was in the middle of my commute, I was bombarded with text messages saying that President Trump had, to many people's surprise, signed an executive order to regulate artificial intelligence. And it gives the government, for the first time, really under the Trump administration, oversight over AI models. This is a big change for an administration that has had an entirely hands off approach to regulating the tech industry and the companies that are pushing artificial intelligence forward. What the government has done is said that AI companies will share their models voluntarily with the government about 30 days before they're released publicly so that the government can review the models and figure out if they're in any software vulnerabilities that they could attack. And then that would allow the government to patch those vulnerabilities and prevent a cyber attack by a foreign adversary or just a bad actor.

[Michael Barbaro]

This seems like a relatively big ask, which is, let us, the government, take a look at your software before the world, before all the businesses that want it get a chance to buy it. What's the story behind why this administration that has been so hands off decided at long last that it should be in the business of regulating artificial intelligence?

[Trip Mickell]

Well, it's been on a journey. And that journey began last year when President Trump came into office. And one of the first things he did was sign an executive order that repealed and scrapped all of the rules from the Biden era that were designed to bring some safety processes to bear on artificial intelligence. And Trump would explain why he did this by saying, make America great again.

[David Sacks]

We're going to make this industry absolutely the top, because right now it's a beautiful baby that's born. We have to grow that baby and let that baby thrive.

[Trip Mickell]

The AI industry is a beautiful baby. And you don't want rules to get in the way of a beautiful baby when it's taking its first step. You just want it to take its first steps, essentially, and let it start to run.

[David Sacks]

We can't stop it. We can't stop it with politics. We can't stop it with foolish rules and even stupid rules at the same time.

[Trip Mickell]

And that was the administration's philosophy. And that philosophy was really cultivated and encouraged by David Sacks, The White House AIs are. David is a venture capitalist. He's pretty much a libertarian. And he believes that any rules would get in the way of technology's advancement and development. And he wins the President's ear with two arguments. If the US Continues to lead in AI, we will remain the most powerful country. But if we don't, we could fall behind our global competitors like China. On one hand, like the geopolitical competition between superpowers between the United States and China for who's going to control this technology that clearly has the potential to define the next century. And I think you could argue that the AI race is even more important than the space race because it's going to determine who reshapes the global economy and who the superpowers of the 21st century are going to be. And on the other hand, he's also focused on the economic opportunity of this technology and how can the United States harness that economic opportunity. There's a reason that our economy is driven by tech now, and it's because of a largely hands off approach during a previous era.

[Michael Barbaro]

So Given just how entrenched this thinking appears to be inside the Trump administration, embraced by the President and the person that the President turns to for advice on the AI industry, what ultimately changes this thinking and leads to the executive order?

[Trip Mickell]

In April, the entire tech industry got a wake up call, and so did Washington. And that is because Anthropic, which is one of the leading developers of artificial intelligence in the country, announced that it had made a new model called Mythos that it said was very skilled at detecting and identifying vulnerabilities in software and could be weaponized by people who wanted to do cyber attacks. And all of a sudden, everybody starts to think, oh, goodness, like, what are the downside risks here? Like, what are the possibilities?

[Michael Barbaro]

And what are the possibilities?

[Trip Mickell]

These are really powerful systems, and they can be used by bad actors to hack into the electric grid or hack into bank accounts to steal money, to all of a sudden, overnight turn off all the lights in New York City and create mass panic. Anthropic said that it was so dangerous that it couldn't even release it to the public and instead was creating a Bespoke Group of 40 companies that were going to get early access to this model so that they could figure out how it might be used to find vulnerabilities in their software systems. And concerns about this new model reverberate from the west coast to the East Coast. First you have Microsoft, which has written most of the software code that the US Government relies on, calling the administration and saying, hey, this is a big deal. You need to take this seriously. And then on the east coast, you have figures like Jamie Dimon putting calls into the administration and saying, look, this is a risk for banks. You all need to take this seriously.

[Michael Barbaro]

Jamie Dimon, of course, being the CEO of JPMorgan Chase, the banking giant, right?

[Trip Mickell]

And this gets the ear of Scott Besant and Susie Wiles. Scott Besant being the Treasury Secretary, Susie Wiles being the Chief of Staff, they worry that if there is a cyber attack, if there is some use of this technology in a way that shocks the American public, that if the administration continues to have a hands off approach, it will look like it enabled that. And so they start to talk about, well, what could we do? Like, we're literally doing nothing now. How do we take a step forward of some sort and begin to get our arms around where this technology is going in the future?

[Michael Barbaro]

So all of a sudden, after this hands off approach has persisted and prevailed, there's now a countervailing force inside the White House. Bessen and Wiles saying, wait a minute, we could have a real problem here. Let's slow this down. Let's have a conversation about what actually a hands on approach might look like and where does that go?

[Trip Mickell]

In May, Scott Besson and Susie Wiles begin to organize conversations within the administration about how it could regulate the industry. And they begin talking to AI companies about what approaches might be okay with the companies. Now this is an administration that's trying to walk a tightrope here, right? I mean, they have said that we are very pro innovation, we don't want any rules. And so they don't want to fully abandon that idea. But they want to also take a baby step forward or some step forward so that they do have some guardrails in place. And what they wind up coming up with is this idea of an up to 90 day window when they could review artificial intelligence models and assess whether or not those models are capable of finding software vulnerabilities. In essence, it wouldn't tell tech companies what they can't do, but it would allow the government to absorb information about what their technology can do so that the government is prepared for that and can help other key groups like banks and utilities also be prepared for those risks. And so a draft of the executive order is written. The administration schedules a signing ceremony in the Oval office on Thursday, May 21. And they begin to ask and invite chief executives to come to Washington to be there for this event. And in the run up to that event, a couple of things happened. Joining me now is White House National Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett. Kevin, it's great to have you this morning. Welcome. Great to be here. 1 Kevin Hassett, the head of the National Economic Council goes on Fox tv. We're studying possibly an executive order to give a clear roadmap to everybody about how future, future AIs that also potentially create vulnerabilities should go through a process so that, you know, they're released in the wild after they've been proven safe, just like an FDA drug and describes the process that they're considering as something akin to what the FDA does for drug approvals.

[Michael Barbaro]

An FDA for AI that would vet. You heard that correct, folks. That would vet new models for safety.

[Trip Mickell]

The thing we've been talking about not doing here, the thing, David, this freaks out Silicon Valley constituents and leads to real worry that the administration's going to slow down the development of artificial intelligence and basically just slam the brakes on it in the same way that it's like really hard to get a new drug out the door. They fear that it's going to be really hard to get new artificial intelligence models out the door. And Thursday morning rolls around and it's time for President Trump to gear up to sign this executive order. And that morning, he begins to get skeptical about it and say, what is this on my calendar? And he calls, he starts calling, he starts calling tech executives and saying, hey, what do you think of this? And so he speaks to a number of tech executives, including Mark Zuckerberg, Mark Andreessen, the venture capitalist, who has a tremendous amount of influence on the White House, and most importantly, David Sacks. And David Sacks tells him directly, don't sign this. This is a bad idea.

[Bernie Sanders]

Wow.

[Trip Mickell]

And within a few hours of that, the President's on TV doing another event. Why does today's executive order on AI been postponed?

[David Sacks]

Because I didn't like certain aspects of it. I postponed it. I think it gets in the way of, you know, we're leading China, we're leading everybody, and I don't want to do anything that's going to get in the way of.

[Trip Mickell]

And he says that he's canceling the executive order signing of it because he's concerned that it's going to create rules that slow down the industry.

[David Sacks]

I really thought that could have been a blocker, and I want to make sure that it's not.

[Michael Barbaro]

This feels like a pretty decisive victory for the AI industry and for the David Sacks faction of those advising the President. But we know that it's a temporary victory because Trump does end up signing some version of an executive order. So after he changes his mind and cancels the first one, what makes him want to sign it all over again?

[Trip Mickell]

There's persistence from Susie Wiles and Scott Besant that something still needs to happen. And over roughly the two weeks that follow, they continue to push this notion forward. And the President convenes a meeting this Monday at the White House with David Sachs, Scott Besant, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, and other principals who have a vested interest in this. And they basically wrestle with how do we get this done? And in the course of that conversation, there are a few changes made to the executive order. One is that that 90 day window is reduced to up to 30 days,

[Michael Barbaro]

so cut down by a third. That's a lot.

[Trip Mickell]

Yeah, that's a lot. And there's a line added about how nothing in the executive order can be construed to authorize a mandatory government licensing, pre clearance or permitting process to be put in place. Those changes win David Sacks blessing. And on Tuesday morning, with almost with zero fanfare and no advance notice to tech companies, the White House posts a notification on its website saying that President Trump has signed the executive order and it is now policy.

[Bernie Sanders]

Hmm.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, given how watered down this executive order ultimately becomes from 90 days to 30 days, with all these stipulations of what it's not, and given how quietly Trump signed it, how should we think about this regulation and how meaningful or not it really is?

[Trip Mickell]

It is small by design, no doubt about it, but it shows how the ground has shifted in Washington on AI policy and the door has now been cracked open to have a bigger conversation about whether or not there should be a other rules or regulations in the future. Remember, this technology is moving really, really fast and everyone was blindsided in April. So, you know, trying to catch up to where the technology is going is where a lot of people's head is right now in Washington.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

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[Michael Barbaro]

tripp I want to

turn to this bigger conversation that's happening in Washington about what the right level of regulation for AI is. I mean, obviously the way that the factions inside the White House Resolved. This debate was through this baby step of this executive order. My sense is that beyond the White House, there's less interest in just baby steps.

[Trip Mickell]

Yes. I mean, and there has been a steady drumbeat that has increased in volume over the past year. And it's coming from two sides of the country politically. It's coming from populists on the left, people like Bernie Sanders, and populists on the right, people like Steve Bannon. They would all like to see the government take a more heavy handed role in regulating artificial intelligence, largely because this is a really disruptive technology. It's going to have huge ramifications for the country. And they believe that there's not being enough done to put the government at the forefront of where it's going to.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, let's start with the populists on the right and what's motivating their concerns about AI. Artificial intelligence in a free society are

[Trip Mickell]

totally and completely incompatible.

[Michael Barbaro]

Let me repeat that. Artificial intelligence and a free society are absolutely and totally incompatible. Full freaking stop.

[Trip Mickell]

Steve Bannon has long been skeptical of big tech.

[Michael Barbaro]

A lot of the brologarchs and tech

[Trip Mickell]

brologarchs, as he calls them.

[David Sacks]

It's not that I don't think AI has tremendous benefits, it obviously does.

[Michael Barbaro]

But the downside is so unlimited because

[Trip Mickell]

he's really concerned that they're going to sell out the American public, enrich themselves, and they're going to do it without any transparency or any accountability.

[Michael Barbaro]

I think that artificial intelligence that we have to have even more than regulation. I think we need something like a Geneva treaty or some sort of arms treaty. This thing is very dangerous, very dangerous.

[Trip Mickell]

And that's where he wants the government to step in and provide some rules for the road.

[Michael Barbaro]

And I am more of a hardliner in this than anything else I've ever been a hardliner on.

[Trip Mickell]

He hasn't been real explicit about what those rules should be, but he's definitely channeled what he believes is the anger building of working class people and the uneasiness of working class people who are seeing this big transformative technology barreling down the tracks at them and feeling like nobody's in the engine room steering the train.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. And he ultimately worries that these AI boligarchs are gonna force Trump to sell out his own base. Because Bannon was at the heart of creating the Trump political message that appealed so powerfully to that forgotten American worker.

[Trip Mickell]

Exactly. And the interesting thing about this is it's not just an economic argument that's gotten momentum within the MAGA base. There's also a moral argument that's been building as well. I stumbled upon this by talking a pastor in Texas. You know, in a conversation with this pastor, I was like, why did you become part of the AI opposition movement? And he started doing it because he met with a parishioner who told him a story about a friend whose marriage was on the rocks because he was having a relationship with an AI companion, and it had completely destroyed and gutted the relationship he had with his wife. You know, and this pastor is concerned about how many other people might wind up in the same situation in the future. Right.

[Michael Barbaro]

Basically, AI as a road to perdition, kind of moral rot.

[Trip Mickell]

Right. And, like, what stress and strain does this put on kind of the moral fabric of America? And this isn't an isolated thing. There were more than three dozen pastors who signed onto a letter with Steve Bannon urging the Trump administration to actually sign this executive order that we spent time talking about. They just want somebody to take the wheel, and they don't want that somebody to be the tech industry. That seems to have the President's ear.

[Michael Barbaro]

I wonder if these pastors and Steve Bannon are compelled by the executive order the President signed just a couple days ago.

[Trip Mickell]

Not really. I mean, they feel like it's a step forward, but they'd like to see a bigger step taken. And when I asked one of the organizers of the letter, what would you like to really see happen? They said that one of the things that they're supportive of is a bipartisan piece of legislation that Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri advanced that would create a national AI system to evaluate more rigorously and like on a mandatory basis, artificial intelligence models before they're released.

[Michael Barbaro]

So something firmer than what the President is proposing, which is voluntary, a forced, basically pre clearance review process in which the government determines whether something is safe enough when it comes to AI to be used by corporations and all of us.

[Trip Mickell]

Exactly.

[Michael Barbaro]

Okay, so what about the populists on the left? Specifically Senator Bernie Sanders, who you mentioned a little bit earlier?

What's he calling for?

[Trip Mickell]

First of all, it's worth noting that Bernie Sanders has just gone deep on artificial intelligence.

[Bernie Sanders]

Claude, this is Senator Bernie Sanders.

[Trip Mickell]

He's interacting and doing interviews with Claude. The anthropic system.

[Bernie Sanders]

I have been taking a hard look at how AI impacts American society in terms of economics and job loss, in terms of the mental health of our kids, in terms of what it will do to the political process.

[Trip Mickell]

He's really trying to immerse himself in this technology and where it's going. And he's made two proposals.

[Bernie Sanders]

Given the speed at which AI is developing and the impact it's going to have on so many aspects of our life, would you support a moratorium on the development of new AI data centers,

[Trip Mickell]

one of which is a moratorium on artificial intelligence? And when I spoke to Bernie Sanders and asked him about this moratorium, which probably doesn't have a real shot of becoming law, he said one of the things that's kind of shocking to him is that given that AI and robotics are going to impact every man, woman and child in the country, you would think that Congress would be talking about this. And yet the conversations about artificial intelligence aren't really happening on Capitol Hill. And so that's part of the reason that he's throwing his weight around and trying to introduce legislation that really sparks conversation. And the second proposal may be even more radical than the first.

[Bernie Sanders]

Madam President, the time has come for us to reclaim what was stolen from

[Trip Mickell]

us, and that is that the United States should take a 50% ownership stake in all of the biggest artificial intelligence companies as they go public.

[Bernie Sanders]

I will be introducing the American AI Sovereign Wealth Fund Act. This legislation would give the public a direct ownership stake in the largest AI companies in our country.

[Trip Mickell]

So when Anthropic and OpenAI have their IPOs later this year, as they've said they plan to do, he said that the US should get a 50% share of that. It should go in a AI sovereign wealth fund, and that the entire country should share the profits and wealth of those companies as they continue to grow and develop.

[Bernie Sanders]

Bottom line, the future of AI and the fate of humanity must not be decided behind closed doors by the wealthiest people in the world. It is our future. We must decide it. Let's get it done.

[Michael Barbaro]

That's about as far as you can possibly imagine from the President's baby step of give us 30 days to evaluate the safety of something before it goes out in the world voluntarily. This would be the government owning, controlling the industry night and day.

[Trip Mickell]

Yeah, it's a big radical leap from where the President is at the moment,

[Michael Barbaro]

and suffice it to say, the AI industry, not a fan of this proposal.

[Trip Mickell]

It was largely met with shock in Silicon Valley and ridicule from people who think it's basically unacceptable socialism at this point.

[Michael Barbaro]

Given how much of a desire we can see on both sides of the populist wings of the parties for regulation of AI, what is the industry actually willing to accept at the moment?

[Trip Mickell]

The industry, at the same time these conversations are happening seems to be recognizing that it has a big problem with the American public at the moment, that it's got a trust deficit. I mean, that's pretty clear based on the polling data that's been coming out, based on the rise in AI opposition, and then based on like a very violent act that happened here in San Francisco. A Molotov cocktail was thrown at Sam Altman's home. Sam Altman being the CEO of OpenAI. And that was a bit of a wake up call for everybody in terms of making people recognize that developing this technology without any rules also has risk for the companies who are pushing it forward. And so what you've seen in the wake of the executive order, and we're just talking like days, Michael, this is just a few days later. OpenAI came out on Wednesday with its own post encouraging Congress to sit down and adopt more rigorous rules for the artificial intelligence industry. Now, this is a company that has largely opposed rules up until this point. And that to me, just speaks to the type of shift that's taking place right now.

[Michael Barbaro]

But is that a genuine request by a major AI company to be regulated? Is that just a public relations gesture? This is also an industry that spends a lot of money in American politics, almost all of which seems to be directed at electing candidates who will not want to be regulating the industry.

[Trip Mickell]

It's a great question. As somebody who covers the industry, it's hard to figure out at times where Silicon Valley is going on this. And OpenAI is a good example. It's pushing forward this notion that democratic governments, not private companies alone, should determine the rules and safeguards for the technology that it's developing. At the same time, one of its founders, Greg Brockman, is spending money to try to ensure that the people being elected to public office support a relatively hands off approach, if not a totally hands off approach to artificial intelligence.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. I mean, I have the question of whether in the end, what ultimately may lead to meaningful regulation of this industry is what leads to meaningful regulation of any industry, which is some sort of massive crisis. And the two that come to mind are the faa, the regulatory body over the commercial airline industry, that comes into existence after there are many plane crashes. And in the 1950s, the government says, we need a regulatory body to deal with this. After the financial crisis in 2008, the US government wakes up and says, we need a much more robust set of regulations around banks and derivatives and American finance. And so we get that regulatory scheme. Is that just at this point, the most likely scenario in which we get meaningful regulation for AI Something goes quite badly wrong.

[Trip Mickell]

Given the paralysis on Capitol Hill, I think that's the right way of looking at this, that there needs to be not just a mythos that isn't released publicly, but there needs to be a mythos that has been released and the lights need to go out in New York City or something like that.

[David Sacks]

Right.

[Trip Mickell]

Maybe that's what moves the ball forward on this. At the same time though, you know, talking about this, I can't help but think that here we are in what, 15 years into the social media revolution that Facebook brought about. We've been dealing with tremendous polarization as a consequence of that. There have been mental health issues for young people, there have been concerns about child sexual abuse material.

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. There have been crisis on top of

[Trip Mickell]

crisis and there's not been a single rule written. Right, Right. That segment of the tech industry remains unregulated. And so I can't help but look at this and wonder, could this kind of nascent segment of the tech industry, artificial intelligence, also just run out the clock in perpetuity?

[Michael Barbaro]

Right. You're raising the real prospect that tech and AI may defy the history of crisis and regulation in this country that we've had with most industry.

[Trip Mickell]

It has so far. And it's got a really big bully stick that it's carrying around. And that is how much it is driving the U.S. economy. And we're talking about a third to more than half of GDP growth at this moment is coming from artificial intelligence and the build out of artificial intelligence. And that is a big reason that it took so long for this executive order to be enacted. But at the same time, many of those economic benefits aren't being distributed broadly to everyone. I mean, they're flowing to the few across a broad swath of the country. What people are living with are anxieties about what this technology is going to do. Is it going to eliminate my job? Is it going to result in a data center in the backyard? Is it going to break up a family? If those pain points begin to bleed from the progressive populist wing and the MAGA populist wing of the country into a broader swath of the public, then the pressure to take action and have real regulation will be impossible to ignore.

[Michael Barbaro]

Well, Trip, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

[Trip Mickell]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Michael Barbaro]

We'll be right back.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

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[Trip Mickell]

Secrets

[Michael Barbaro]

from director Steven Spielberg.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Are they people? No.

[Michael Barbaro]

Are they human?

[Trip Mickell]

My God.

[Michael Barbaro]

This semi nine year cover up has to end on June 12th. You don't need to fear them.

[Trip Mickell]

I fear us.

[Michael Barbaro]

Disclosure Day rated PG 13 some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. In theaters June 12th. Get tickets now.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

Investing with Schwab is like spending a Saturday at a great farmer's market. You can fill your reusable tote with a bit of everything. Maybe you go for some free range self directed investing or perhaps you pick up a few farm fresh trades while you peruse. You can even get help from a dedicated advisor. That's full service wealth management. Mix, match and change your mind whenever you want. Because at Schwab you can invest your way no matter your goals or appetite for investing. Schwab has everything you need all in one place. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Michael Barbaro]

Here's what else you need to Another

[Trip Mickell]

day on this boat.

[David Sacks]

The yeas are 215 and the nays are 208.

[Trip Mickell]

The concurrent resolution is adopted.

[Michael Barbaro]

On Wednesday, the Republican controlled House of Representatives voted to direct President Trump to withdraw U.S. forces from the war with Iran or win approval from Congress to continue it. Four Republicans sided with Democrats in a sign of the growing bipartisan opposition to a conflict that is now in its fourth month. The vote is seen as largely symbolic because even if the legislation makes its way to Trump's desk, he's expected to veto it. Meanwhile, Iran fired a barrage of missiles and drones at two US Allies, Kuwait and Bahrain, undermining the claim made by the Trump administration that the war is over. The attacks in Kuwait proved deadly. Iran struck Kuwait's international airport, killing one person, injuring scores of others, and setting an airport terminal on fire. Today's episode was produced by Kaitlin o', Keefe, Asta Chaturved and Diana Wynn. It was edited by Mark George and Annie Minoff and contains music by Marian Lozano, Dan Powell and Diane Wong. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Alyssa Mox. That's it for the Daily I'm Michael Barbara. See you tomorrow.

[Capital One Bank Guy]

With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank Guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep. Even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone. Com, bankguy, capital1na member, FDIC.