The Daily – "The 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters" (May 3, 2026)
Podcast Host: Michael Barbaro
Featuring: Sasha Weiss, Joe Coscarelli, Jody Rosen, Taylor Swift, Jay Z, Nile Rodgers, and others
Overview
This special Sunday episode dives into The New York Times Magazine's ambitious project: ranking the 30 greatest living American songwriters. The episode explores the creation of the list, the complex debates that shaped it, and what these songwriters reveal about the craft of songwriting. It features interviews with critics and multiple artists—including an in-depth interview with Taylor Swift—and reflects on the tradition, innovation, and diversity at the heart of American popular music.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Making of the List: Process & Principles
(02:06–08:36)
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Building the List:
- The Times staff, led by deputy editor Sasha Weiss, sought wisdom from a broad “crowd”: musicians, producers, music critics, editors, scholars, authors, DJs, and music supervisors. Over 700 names emerged from this initial balloting.
- Sasha Weiss [02:32]: “We wanted to really canvas a lot of different music experts from all walks of life...the list...had over 700 individual names.”
- Final selection required critics to debate, sometimes fiercely, winnowing the list to just 30.
- Sasha Weiss [03:27]: “Passionate, contentious, sometimes heated...some people were obvious shoo ins...Stevie Wonder, Dolly Parton, Bob Dylan, Carole King.”
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Hard Choices:
- Inevitably, figures like Billy Joel were left off because others ranked higher by consensus, even as his exclusion was mourned.
- Michael Barbaro [04:55]: “You left off Billy Joel, the poet laureate of New York...”
- Sasha Weiss [05:11]: “Billy Joel belongs on a list of great songwriters. But when you’re making a list of 30...you have to make hard choices.”
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What the List Reveals:
- The result is an eclectic tapestry reflecting the breadth of American popular song—its diversity, traditions, and new directions.
- Sasha Weiss [06:21]: “I think it reflects the way that American music comes out of everything from...a dance floor at a bar mitzvah, to what you see on TikTok...to karaoke...R&B and soul and hip hop...avant garde indie weirdness.”
Taylor Swift: Craft, Influence, and Reputation
Interview: Joe Coscarelli & Taylor Swift (10:10–26:56)
Why Taylor Swift?
Joe Coscarelli [10:54]:
“How could she not? ...There’s a lot of hemming and hawing over Taylor’s omnipresence...But the music is at the core...It’s the songs.”
Swift's Songwriting Mechanics
The Art of the Bridge
Michael Barbaro [17:18]: “Taylor is famous for her bridges...I don’t think I’ve ever really understood what a bridge is...”
- Taylor Swift [17:48]:
“...the bridge can be where you zoom back, you walk 20 ft back, and you see what this entire painting was supposed to be like...the bridge can be when you step back and you feel everything that that piece of art was supposed to make you feel.”
- Taylor Swift [18:28]:
“We love these rant bridges, where it’s basically like stream of consciousness, endless, pouring out of emotion.”
Inspiration Strikes: The "Elizabeth Taylor" Example
(19:09–20:39)
- Swift recounts the real-time inception of her song “Elizabeth Taylor,” as a melody “floats down like a cloud.”
- Taylor Swift [20:20]:
“I’m just like scrambling to open my record, like, app on my phone...It comes as if from nowhere.”
Defending Her Authorship and Embracing Criticism
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Swift reflects on skepticism about her songwriting, especially early in her career. The third album, "Speak Now," was written entirely alone to silence doubters.
- Taylor Swift [21:22]:
“...there was this big debate over whether I deserved to be there...these discussions can lead to a really bad place if I don't do something to counteract them...”
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Criticism as Creative Fuel:
- Taylor Swift [24:05]:
“...criticism has been a huge fuel for me...Blank Space would not exist if I hadn’t had people be like, here’s a slideshow of all her boyfriends...A little bit of it. You gotta just be like, this is part of it.”
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Advice to Others:
- Taylor Swift [25:37]:
“Don’t respond to trolls in your comments. That’s not what we want from you. We want your art.”
On Billy Joel, Again
- Joe Coscarelli confesses voting against Billy Joel:
- Joe Coscarelli [26:20]:
“I find Billy Joel to be schlocky…Just because people want to sing your songs at karaoke…that’s one ingredient…but I don’t know that the catalog itself stands up when you put a little more pressure on it.”
Jody Rosen on Hip-Hop, Nashville's Hitmakers, and Nile Rodgers
(28:13–45:15)
Jay Z: Storytelling and Technical Genius
(29:01–32:01)
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Jay Z’s process: starts with "flow," filling in the words to the rhythm—done quickly, improvisationally, with an eye for complex rhyme and layered meaning.
- Jay Z [30:48]:
“Most times, I come up with the flow first…I'm trying to work out the pockets, and then I'll fill it with words.”
- Jay Z [32:01]:
“That’s when I feel like I’m at my best.”
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Jay Z’s narrative: from hustler to mogul, providing an unvarnished chronicle through intricate rhyme and wordplay.
- Jody Rosen [30:03]:
“Jay Z, of course, a master storyteller, but also kind of a legendary technician…”
The Nashville Three: Brandy Clark, Shane McAnally, Josh Osborne
(32:32–38:37)
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Unsung architects of country hits, operating from the “Music Row” tradition—writing as a 9-to-5 job, collaborating, pitching songs to artists.
- Jody Rosen [33:19]:
“...writers who approach songwriting as a 9 to 5 job...Usually it starts at 11 in the morning. And then they ping pong ideas...”
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Their innovation: blending tradition and modern themes—e.g., progressive topics for Kacey Musgraves, blending R&B influences into country.
- Jody Rosen [34:17]:
“While they operate out of this Music Row tradition, they’re also kind of, I would say, subverters of tradition.”
- Michael Barbaro [34:50]:
“Follow your arrow.”
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Their camaraderie: a “support group” as much as a writing team; always alert to the “song moment” in real life.
- Brandy Clark [36:56]:
“...he’ll be talking and I’ll glaze over and he'll be like, are you writing a song? This is our life. But that's how it happens.”
Nile Rodgers: The Soundtrack of Our Lives
(39:02–41:42)
- Legendary guitarist, Chic co-founder, and hitmaker behind “Good Times,” “I’m Coming Out,” “We Are Family,” and more.
- Jody Rosen [39:39]:
“...they sound like glossy products of a very sophisticated recording studio environment. But they also sound like songs that were found under a rock...they have always been and should always have been...”
- Inspiration in unlikely places:
- The story behind "I'm Coming Out"—seeing dozens of Diana Ross impersonators at a club, recognizing its cultural and commercial resonance.
- Nile Rodgers [41:04]:
“I ran outside and I called Bernard up...Write down, I'm coming out...because I know I'm gonna get drunk and forget.”
- Nile Rodgers [41:42]:
“If we do this, the gay community alone will buy a million records...”
Reflections on American Songwriting
(42:36–45:12)
- Jody Rosen muses on the grand tradition of American songwriting—an intertwining of African, British, European, Jewish, and American traditions, evolving through history.
- Jody Rosen [42:44]:
“American popular song has lots of strains, lots of streams...all these different strains fed into the music of the individuals on our list...maybe a grand tradition, one big tradition that brings together all these different strains but represents a kind of hive mind...a kind of something that can be called American music, you know, an E Pluribus Unum way of song.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On narrowing the list:
“When you’re making a list of 30, and you’re rooting it in a balloting process, you have to make hard choices.” —Sasha Weiss (05:11)
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Taylor Swift, on artistic inspiration:
“It comes as if from nowhere. But that’s like one of those spontaneous places where it floats down like a cloud in front of you and all you have to do is grab it and the song transpires from there.” —Taylor Swift (20:39)
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Jay Z, on rhyme density:
“For me, that’s where I really thrive. Like, when I’m challenged to do a thing to make a word mean more. Triple entendre, quadruple entendre. That’s when I feel like I’m at my best.” —Jay Z (32:01)
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Jody Rosen, on the American songbook:
“What I hear is...maybe a grand tradition, one big tradition that brings together all these different strains but represents a kind of hive mind, a kind of something that can be called American music, you know, an E Pluribus Unum way of song.” —Jody Rosen (44:05)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [02:06] — Sasha Weiss explains the process of canvassing expert opinions
- [04:55] — On Billy Joel's exclusion and "piano man" debate
- [06:21] — How the final 30 reflect the American musical landscape
- [10:50] — Taylor Swift’s place on the list
- [12:33] — Taylor Swift discusses her first song and early writing tricks
- [13:49] — Editing lyrics for perfect flow
- [17:18] — Discussion about song "bridges"
- [20:04] — The origin of “Elizabeth Taylor”
- [21:22] — Defending her authorship (“Speak Now” as a response to critics)
- [24:05] — Criticism as creative fuel
- [26:20] — Joe Coscarelli on voting against Billy Joel
- [29:01] — Jody Rosen interviews Jay Z
- [32:32] — The Nashville “Music Row” tradition explained
- [34:50] — Innovation in Nashville songwriting (“Follow Your Arrow”)
- [39:02] — Jody Rosen and Nile Rodgers, on hitmaking and “I’m Coming Out”
- [42:36] — Jody Rosen reflects on the grand traditions uniting the list
Closing Thought
This episode is a lively, deeply informed meditation on the American songbook—its texture, its disagreements, its transformations, and the people who write the soundtrack to our lives. Far from being just a ranking, the list is a reflection of the United States itself: plural, passionate, and perpetually changing.
For more, including video interviews with artists discussed in this episode, visit: nytimes.com/30Greatest