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The Daily Beans
Gubernatorial Candidate Toni Atkins And Author Brian Cuban (feat. Toni Atkins; Brian Cuban)
00:47:31
Gubernatorial candidate Toni Atkins discusses her historic political journey and vision for California, and Brian Cuban shares his recovery story and new book 'The Body Brokers'. Toni Atkins Toni Atkins (toniatkins.org) Brian Cuban The Body Brokers by Brian Cuban (bookcandystudios.com) briancuban.com
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- [00:00]
Alison Gill
MSW Media. Hello, and welcome to the Daily Beans, a very special edition of the Daily Beans. Today we have two great interviews for you. First of all, candidate for governor of California, and all around incredible woman, Toni Atkins is with us. And then later in the show, we're gonna be joined by Brian Cuban, and we're gonna talk about his new book, Body Broker. So I'm really looking forward to these discussions today. I am so honored to be talking to my senator, my California state senator. Before she was the state senator, and by the way, President Pro Tem of the California Senate, she was a state assembly speaker. She's the first woman and first LGBTQ person to hold this position that she has now in this. In the state assembly and the State Senate, and she was the first person in 150 years to hold both posts. So absolutely incredible history of activism and politics. And we're gonna talk all about it because she is now running for California governor. Please welcome Tony Atkins.
- [01:27]
Toni Atkins
Thank you, Alison. It's so great to be with you today.
- [01:30]
Alison Gill
Did I get all that right? Because that's a lot of stuff that you've done, and that's only touching the surface.
- [01:35]
Toni Atkins
Well, you. You did, and I thank you for all of that. I will only say one thing. I have been your state senator, but I left office on December 2nd. Akilah Weber took my place as a state senator for the 39th, and I was proud to see that happen. So I am now running full time for governor.
- [01:53]
Alison Gill
That's right. That's right. So let's talk about your history and activism and kind of what got you to this point. And then we're gonna. Then I'm gonna talk about your vision for going forward.
- [02:06]
Toni Atkins
Well, thank you. You know, I am 62, so I have a little bit of history, and it did start with activism. I was a political science major in college. I first in my family to graduate from college, so. And from a pretty working, poor family. So, you know, my entry into activism is about working with other groups and people and organizations to really make headway on things like housing and equality for LGBTQ people, on reproductive rights and justice. So I've always been an activist. It's how I got into elected office. I hate to say politics, because I see myself as a public servant, except, you know, politics is profoundly personal. And you got to do the politics. If you want to do the policy and impact budgets and things like that, you really have to do the politics. So I got to San Diego in 1985. I immediately joined the Democratic, the gay Democratic club. So I could be full, fully my authentic myself. It's why I was so excited to come to California. I've been here almost 40 years. But I didn't stop there. I worked on Take Back the Night. I worked on a political campaign to get the first open lesbian elected to the San Diego City Council. My mentor, Chris Kehoe, I went to work for her and then I followed her into elected office. But I also spent time running a women's reproductive health clinic in San Diego and la. So that was my foray into support for women and abortion rights, frankly.
- [03:49]
Alison Gill
Yeah. And that's where I, like have a personal feeling about this because, you know, leading up to the campaign, I ran an ad about, you know, I did an op ed back in 2022 when the Dobbs decision leaked and I was really worried about our active duty service members who might be trapped in states that have abortion bans on the books. And I put in the Washington Post op ed, please, Secretary Lloyd Austin Grant leave no questions asked to anybody who seeks abortion care. Four months later he did. And so I was really happy about that. But it was back in the 90s that I experienced military sexual trauma. And those clinics here, especially in San Diego, were life saving for some of our active duty service members who either needed reproductive care for medical reasons or, you know, because they were sexually assaulted. So that kind of activism, especially back then, the roots there are deep. They run deep.
- [04:50]
Toni Atkins
You know, I, I am so it's such a personal issue for me. I grew up in Southwest Virginia. You know, abortion access in so many states, you know, even before Dobbs, Roe vs. Wade was the law of the land. But it didn't mean access was easy. Those clinics that I ran in San Diego in particular, we saw a lot of women from the military. San Diego is a military town. It's what brought me to California to, to support my sister who was in the Navy. But seeing those women, I just, you know, I wanted to make sure they had access to everything they need.
- [05:27]
Alison Gill
Yeah, yeah. And that's again, that's back when we had more access and now we have less access. And let's talk about that because your vision for California is a broad one and a lot of it has to do with our privacy rights and our reproductive rights and our freedom. So let's talk a little bit about how you see California going forward in the future as far as healthcare goes.
- [05:53]
Toni Atkins
Well, absolutely. I'm so proud I was elected to the assembly as we kicked off in California the Affordable Care act or Obamacare, and we embraced it fully. And it's issues like that. It's access to health care, it's equality for all people, including lgbtq. I've been able to work on all of those issues in the legislature. Having worked in a clinic that did abortion services, I did bills in the legislature to increase access so that nurse practitioners, physicians, assistants and midwives could actually do first trimester abortions without supervision of a physician. It's a matter of training, and many of these practitioners have training. So I did the piece of legislation, the law to expand it. I also am the author of Proposition 1 from two years ago following the Dobbs decision to enshrine abortion and contraception. It should be a given, but it isn't to enshrine contraception and abortion into our Constitution. So I think my background and my activism, all those early years, I've translated into the work that I do in the legislature. And California put real dollars into supporting women and their families who needed to get abortions. Including women in the military who still can't get abortion access without paying for it themselves, right?
- [07:23]
Alison Gill
Yeah. And usually as California goes, so goes the nation. Because of our buying power. We can speak with our wallets here, but also with our social programs. Is California looking at maybe adding a single payer system or public option or lowering the age for Medicare or anything like that?
- [07:45]
Toni Atkins
Yes, and I would say I was one of the co authors for single payer a number of years ago. We really have to figure out pragmatically how to finance it. It is a huge expense. There's a number of steps we would have to take to get approval. People would have to vote, the voters would have to vote on it. We would have to get some waivers from the federal government. So I am a little worried about that. That is something with a more friendly administration, we might be able to get those waivers that allow us to figure out how to finance it. So I think we will get there at some point down the road. But we have commissioned a study or a commission to look at universal financing. So we're doing the building blocks. It may take us a little bit of time to get there, but healthcare access, even though we've done so much, we provide healthcare, a third of our population is on Medi Cal or Medic. You know, we call it Medicare elsewhere, Medicaid, but Medi Cal, about a third of our population, we do cover California, which is the public option. We subsidize some families. All of those things are putting resources into helping everyday Californians who live and work here be able to Access health care. And we still have workforce issues, you know, for mental health services. So we're, we're continuing to build on that and do all that. You just gotta stay. It's part of why I wanna be governor. I wanna stay laser focused on the to do list. What next? What next? Everything costs a little bit of money. So we have to figure out how to do it responsibly so that we can afford it. We provide coverage to undocumented individuals. And I'm very proud of having worked on that legislation because many of these individuals actually work in California and they pay taxes.
- [09:37]
Alison Gill
Well, that's the key, right? The taxes and the revenue that is generated by our immigrant population. We couldn't survive without it. I mean, we could, but it would be very, very difficult. And to tax people and not give them the programs that other taxed people get just doesn't make any sense to me. And so I think that that's so important. And I think, you know, there's probably tons of way we'll talk offline about tons of ways to generate revenue to pay for health care. Because I've been thinking about this for decades working at the va.
- [10:13]
Toni Atkins
It's fiscally irresponsible not to provide health care because we are. Hospitals are required to see people when they show up at the emergency room. It's better to get preventative care. It's what all of our health plans are doing with us. I get notifications for my health plan. Are you getting your flu shot? Have you done this or done that? They remind me of my mammogram. All those things that are preventative. If we were doing that, then people wouldn't show up at the emergency room and cost taxpayers, all of us, way more expensive services.
- [10:48]
Alison Gill
Oh, yeah. Well, that's why the VA is so reasonable as far as costs go is because first of all, we were the first to negotiate drug prices in bulk. Second of all, we provide direct care. So there's no third party administrators we ought to pay to adjudicate claims. But we aren't anywhere near a direct government healthcare system yet. We still have to get to that. But, you know, it's the fact that the wellness is the patient is the bottom line, not the patient centered care.
- [11:17]
Toni Atkins
Yeah, in the clinics where I worked, we called it client. We didn't call people patients. Patients sort of indicated illness. We, you know, that was that feminist perspective. They were clients.
- [11:30]
Alison Gill
Love it.
- [11:31]
Toni Atkins
And we needed to be client based.
- [11:33]
Alison Gill
Love it. All right, let's talk about some more platforms that you have planned as Governor of California, let's talk about. They're also intertwined like because we talk about healthcare, we talk about jobs and the economy, but let's talk about climate and how we can lead the country in that.
- [11:47]
Toni Atkins
Well, thank you for that. It's one of the key issues that I think we have to focus on. And you know, people don't think about it every single day. But California has been forward thinking and we have expended resources on things like sea level rise which we're experiencing in Southern California, Imperial beach first to feel it. So we. I've led a lot of legislation with various members of the legislature on climate change. The voters just supported a $10 billion bond to work on things like sustainability, resiliency. And that translates into how do we shift our economy, how do we shift our ag economy so that everything is less emissions generating, how do we approach almost EVs, electric vehicles. The polling recently shows that people still believe that's an important thing to do for our climate and the future of our world. Especially existential. It's an existential threat. So we need to be dealing with that. And while we don't feel it every single day we are more and more with the fires, the extreme fires, extreme heat, drought, all of those kinds of things. We had flooding like we've never had in San Diego county. As you know, that's not usual for us. And people's lives and homes were in a pretty marginalized community, were destroyed. So you know, it is upper mind in Californians minds even though they don't think about it like every single day like they do homelessness or housing availability or access to health care, that's every day. It's something we feel every single day. Climate we experience every single day. But I'm not sure, you know, we, we think about what each thing we do, how it's connected. But that's a huge issue and California's care a great deal about it. And we lead the country. You know.
- [13:46]
Alison Gill
Yeah.
- [13:47]
Toni Atkins
When we go, when I went to the Paris conference in 2016 and there have been two more since then, or actually maybe three, you know, everybody looked at us like we were superstars in from other countries. California, we're seen as a nation state. So to your point earlier of as California goes, we lead and a lot of it is because of our size and our market impact and we want to continue to do that in California.
- [14:15]
Alison Gill
Yeah, it's important that we show the way and how these programs can work and how they can be paid for and responsibly and you know, it's interesting you, you mentioned about all these problems being connected with climate, with health, with jobs. The solutions are often connected too. And that's why I think your campaign is so, is so on point because, like, I'm thinking of on a national level. For example, the Biden labor administration worked in the Infrastructure.
- [14:42]
Toni Atkins
Yes.
- [14:42]
Alison Gill
Act to get the wind energy, the windmill blades made only with US Steel and only by Union Steel workers. So like all. And that whole deal came together and that just benefits. It's like a win, win, win, win, win. And the, the, you know, the energy barons get money too, like if you care about their pockets or whatever. But we're doing it in a more efficient way. You know, Rick Perry made a killing down in Texas on wind, but then was like, climate change is a hoax. It's, it's weird that they're pocketing all the money from it and recognizing that it's a solution, but like running away from the actual science of it. But people are losing their insurance coverage because of climate change. And we're going to face that here in California with our fires. People are already facing it.
- [15:35]
Toni Atkins
Right.
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Alison Gill
And so that's why it's so important.
- [15:38]
Toni Atkins
And it's a global issue. It's really impacting because climate change has impacted so many places in the world. In the world. You're seeing that this issue is global. And we are really going to have to work with people across the country on how to solve it. In California, we have sort of a. I'm going to call it, even though it's critical and it's important, and we did it, and I'm glad we did. I'm going to call it a band aid. However, we implemented the Fair Plan, which was something that other states, Florida had to do with all of their hurricanes. We implemented a fair Plan that is a government option for insurance, but it really cannot sustain, you know, homeowners and businesses and farms. It just can't sustain that big a risk pool. But we are working on it. It's something that's uppermost. I hear it everywhere I go in California. You know, for those who want to create intergenerational wealth, another thing I've been focused on through economics, but also in terms of those who might want to purchase their own home, which was something we always thought of as the American dream. Now that's changing a little bit, but it's still how you create intergenerational wealth. And so I hear it a lot from those who still aspire to own a home. Because if you can't afford insurance, you know, in addition to a down payment, it's problematic. So we have to solve this problem, and we are working with the insurance commissioner to try to figure out how to do that and make the risk sharing more broadly for. From everybody's perspective. And yet, you know, the costs are probably going to go up until we tackle climate change, because the more we have the fires, it creates the risk and we pay for that. So, you know, what California is doing to invest in climate solutions and all of that is really long term, very responsible in terms of economics.
- [17:40]
Alison Gill
Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad you brought up intergenerational wealth because, you know, a lot of these issues, whether it's health care, climate, the jobs, et cetera, impact marginalized communities more than they impact non, you know, non marginalized communities, folks like me. But I want to talk a little bit about civil justice. I want. This is where I want to end for marginalized communities, because this is something else that your campaign is very focused on. I met you at ELPAC last week. Right. Talking about protecting our communities and investing in our communities. So talk a little bit about your campaign platform on civil justice.
- [18:17]
Toni Atkins
Well, California values, I think, are pretty. Because we're such a diverse state of people, I think there is largely more support for issues of social justice and that, you know, for example, you know, we just enshrined marriage equality and took out that offensive language of marriage between one man and one woman out of our state constitution. It is, you know, really core to who we are as Californians. And I think that, you know, a lot of. A lot of what happened during the national campaign to target transgender communities, it was a smokescreen to really. Because most people are live and let live. I came from a community of very conservative people. My family was Pentecostal holiness. When I came out at age 17, my parents still loved me and embraced me. Now they didn't understand it. And I find that's true wherever I go in California. You know, it's really live and let live. But when we talk about social justice, it really is economic. In particular, if you talk about communities of color, equal access, a level playing field. Getting rid of those regulations like single family zoning, which really started as a means to keep people out.
- [19:41]
Alison Gill
Yep.
- [19:42]
Toni Atkins
And, you know, and that that's going to lead us to more options for people to have access to housing. And my dream for all program that I managed to get into the budget allows families that want to get in, own a home, to get a loan, basically, or share with the state government. And get their 20% down payment. Because if you're able to make that 20% down payment on a, on a home, your first time homebuyer, your first home, then you don't have to pay mortgage deduction insurance. Your, your mortgage goes down. And so that program was oversubscribed. We ran out of $300 million statewide in 11 days. So we kept the program. And you, you know as well as I do, I, my parents never owned a home. They rented their entire lives. I was a renter. I bought my first home with a partner when I was 32. And you know that when you are able to pass that generation, that, that economic opportunity and money onto your, you know, your kids, it's how people, it's how middle class people have sent their kids to college or managed to take care of parents in their older age. The ability to create intergenerational wealth, and you heard it during the reparations discussions in Sacramento, my friend Steve Bradford said, well, if you can pass on intergenerational wealth to your kids, there's intergenerational debt owed. Certain communities who were left out of that equation.
- [21:25]
Alison Gill
Right. I specifically think of a World War II vets and came back and didn't get GI Bill, didn't get VA home loans. But if you were a person of color that was in the military, but the white veterans did. And then so that's how the generational wealth was built in my family. And many families were left out.
- [21:46]
Toni Atkins
And mine, I mean, my family was very poor. I grew up in a house with no running water. I managed because of public education to get a good public education because of incredible low interest loans and grants, Pell Grant, I got to go to college, the first in my family to graduate. Then if you think about it, you know, my sister went into the Navy. When she came out of the Navy, she went to college. The military helped her go to college. She became, she became a nurse. She entered the middle class because of these kinds of support programs, that they're not gifts, they're not, you know, you're not given a hand out. You are providing equal access for people to be able to do it themselves. You know, and I think that that's what's important. Government is about people. And that's my view, having come from that very poor background and seen when you offer a little bit of assistance to someone trying to get ahead and then they take it and they translate it into being part of the mainstream, part of the middle class, it's what most people aspire to. And it's harder to get there. We've got to focus on that as government. Government is about people. It's about stepping in when you can to create a level playing field where one may not have existed. And I wouldn't be here without that. And it sounds like you wouldn't either.
- [23:12]
Alison Gill
No, exactly. All boats rise together, right? Because I. The VA takes care of my healthcare. I got the GI Bill, I was able to go to college. And now I am a job creator and a taxpayer, and I contribute to the community, and I'm healthier. Maybe not today. My voice. I'm losing my voice.
- [23:32]
Toni Atkins
But today, everyone gets a cold. Everyone gets a cold. But you know what?
- [23:36]
Alison Gill
In general, you have access.
- [23:39]
Toni Atkins
You have real access.
- [23:40]
Alison Gill
Everyone should have that access. I feel like you shouldn't have to join the military to get that access. That's what I'm saying.
- [23:45]
Toni Atkins
Mm. I couldn't agree more. You know, I feel fortunate, and California gave me every opportunity, and my desire is to continue to make sure that's the focus.
- [23:57]
Alison Gill
I love it.
- [23:58]
Toni Atkins
I know what it's like. I know what it's like to be hungry. I know what it's like not to have things. And I also know what it's like when you have the opportunity and it's given to you and it enables you to move forward. So that's what my agenda is for California. It's about real people. You know, we need to find real solutions for real people to get things done. And I'm excited. I'm so excited about this journey. I feel like I've learned from so many people. I've worked with two very different governors, Governor Brown and Governor Newsom. I've certainly helped lead two houses. You know, I feel certain I can hit the ground running and stay focused on the challenges. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with you.
- [24:42]
Alison Gill
Oh, I love it. Thank you so much for all the work you've done, your life of service, and the service that you want to continue doing for Californians. Of course, before I let you go, the big question on everybody's mind is, is Kamala Harris going to run for governor of California? What are your thoughts on that possibility?
- [24:59]
Toni Atkins
Well, I think Kamala and her closest friends are the only ones who know. I think she's seriously thinking about it. I've worked with Kamala. I supported her. I know her, and I think right now she's having to look at all of these options and decide. But, you know, we will know. In terms of my running and my campaign, I don't have the luxury to wait on that decision. I think it will change a lot of the thoughts of other candidates. I'm one of many. But at the same time, you know what? For me, I want to be the governor of California. Kamala's going to have to decide if she wants to run for president or be governor. She won't be able to do both. And for me, this is not a consolation prize. It's what I want to do.
- [25:52]
Alison Gill
Understood. Is there any final message you want to get out to everybody before I let you go? And also share the websites where people can support, donate, volunteer, and work for the campaign?
- [26:03]
Toni Atkins
Thank you. I always forget that one little, very important piece. You know, I certainly represented 39 million people, whether they know it or not, as the leader of the senate or speaker. But I haven't been on the statewide ballot. So if you want to know more about me, tonyapkins.org is the place to go. And I look forward to coming to your town all through California to introduce myself. And I just appreciate this opportunity. We live in a wonderful state.
- [26:30]
Alison Gill
Yeah, we absolutely do. Thank you so much. I have a lot of California pride. You know, my hometown is Akan, but I've been here for 30 years. So I appreciate you coming on and and sharing your vision for the state. All right, well, Everybody head to tonyatkins.org It's Toni with an I t o n I a t k I n s.org to get all of the information and help the campaign out. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.
- [26:54]
Toni Atkins
Thank you. Thank you, everybody.
- [26:56]
Alison Gill
Stick around. We have another interview with Brian Cuban about his upcoming. No, it's already out. His book is already out. You can get it wherever you get your books. It's called Body brokers. We'll be right back after these messages. We'll be right back. Hey, everybody. Welcome back. As promised, I'm really excited about this interview. We have the younger brother of Dallas Mavericks owner and entrepreneur Mark Cuban.
- [27:18]
Toni Atkins
Right.
- [27:18]
Alison Gill
He's a Dallas based attorney, author, and he's in long term recovery from alcohol and drug addiction. He's a graduate of Penn State and University of Pittsburgh school of law. I think my mom went there. He had a first book called the addicted lawyer, and now he's got a new book which is an excellent book. It's called the body brokers. Please welcome Brian Cuban. Hey, Brian.
- [27:42]
Brian Cuban
Hey. Thanks for having me on.
- [27:44]
Alison Gill
Yeah. Now, did you grow up in Pittsburgh?
- [27:47]
Brian Cuban
We did. We did. We grew up. Born and raised. Bleed black and gold from the sports standpoint. But I've lived in. I've lived in Dallas right after I finished law school. I'm Greyhound bus. Marc met me at the Greyhound bus station, downtown Dallas, and I moved in with him.
- [28:03]
Alison Gill
That's so crazy.
- [28:04]
Brian Cuban
Yeah.
- [28:05]
Alison Gill
And we. We actually have a connection going back to, gosh, the early 2000s, where my best friend of forever was roommates with somebody that you knew.
- [28:17]
Brian Cuban
Yes. My. Let me see. You know, one more marriage, I get a free set of steak knives. How many wives is that? I'm just kidding. I'm gonna, you know, I did get remarried, and we've been together a long time. But, yeah, Nikki, my ex wife, my lot. My last ex wife was or is best friends with your best friend, right?
- [28:36]
Alison Gill
Yeah. At the time. Yeah.
- [28:37]
Brian Cuban
Yeah.
- [28:38]
Alison Gill
So the, you know, small world. And we started talking. We reached out because I wanted to talk to you about this book. I wanted to talk to you about a lot of issues that. Stemming from what, you know, just from being in recovery that have to do with our. Our. Our body politic, with politics, especially in the run up to this particular election. So let's go back and talk a little bit about your recovery and what you learned from that and. And your thoughts on how. Because, you know, we talked a little bit offline, and you're like, I'm pretty much the most expert. I have the most expertise you can have without actually being a toxicologist in this department. But talk. Let's. Let's go back and talk about that, and then we'll fast forward and talk about your thoughts on the drug issue in the United States.
- [29:27]
Brian Cuban
Sure. Well, I'm in recovery. I'll have. I'm moving towards 18 years from alcohol and cocaine. And this started. I did my first line of blow in a bathroom in Dallas, Texas, in the summer of 1987. And it really. And I. After a lot of childhood trauma, I really just hated myself for my young 26 years. And for the first time in my life, I sniffed that line, looked in the mirror and said, yeah, baby, this. This young man loves himself now. This young man's confident. And then alcohol and cocaine took over my life. I'll give you a really quick story about how insane it got for me. In 2006, the Dallas Mavericks were going to the NBA championship for the very first time. And as you might expect, I was going to get some good tickets for those games.
- [30:12]
Alison Gill
Right.
- [30:13]
Brian Cuban
I. I also had the opportunity to get a couple tickets for friends. I got. I called up Mark. He said, sure, come on over, Bri. I got the four tickets. I didn't give them to my friends. Didn't sell them on ebay for some astronomical amount either. I traded those tickets to my cocaine dealer for $1,000 in cocaine. Celebrating my 20th years of a practicing lawyer truly blowing it out, right? So my dealer shows up at my house. I was high class, he delivered. He gives me this giant baggie of blow. I give him the tickets. I go running up to my home office, I dump it out on the desk, right? Looking at it like I'm scar face, wanting to rub my nose in it. And I get the dollar bill and the credit card, line it out. And cocaine users were an ironic bunch, especially coming out of a pandemic. You wash your hands, use the Purell, but we'll stick a dollar bill up our nose that's been used by God knows who and bend over a toilet that has God knows what over, right, that 50 other users have snorted off of and go figure. But cocaine has long stopped, given me the feeling of confidence and self love and acceptance by that point. And it was just paranoia. I thought the cops were outside and they weren't. So I hid the cocaine. I drove to a home improvement store in Dallas. I bought electrical face plate outlets, a drill and a saw. I drove back to my house and I went to the drywall in each closet and cut out fake electrical outlets. I put the cocaine behind all these fake electoral outlets and sealed it up, thinking I'm the smartest lawyer ever. Like the dea, the cops and the drug dogs have never thought of that before, right? I did a little more. And again, just paranoia and shame and pain. I go back an hour later to those same electrical outlets and flush it down the toilet, take it out and flush it down the toilet. Not because I had an epiphany, that I had a problem because I was paranoid. So I wake up the next morning and I realize I flushed all my blow down the toilet and there's another gang coming up. So I call Mark again. I get those four tickets again. I call my dealer. He shows up at my house again. He said, dude, you did all that last night? I didn't want to tell him. I flush it down the toilet like a moron. I said, yes, I did it all. He gives me more. I go back up to my home office, dump it out, rinse, wash, repeat. This time I lasted about two hours before I went back to those same electrical outlets and I ended up behind again, took it back out, went to that same toilet and flushed it down the toilet again for the second night in a row. Two grand worth of blow. But they say when Dallas slushes, it runs downhill to Houston. So some people in Houston may had a little hop in their step those two nights. But that was, that was my life. I lost my career as a practicing lawyer, three failed marriages, including Nikki, you know, all as a result of drug and alcohol, you know, struggles. And, and then finally, you know, along those lines, I went to work for Mark. You know, my family was at wit's end. A near suicide attempt in the summer of 2005, where they took me in my first two trips to a psychiatric facility, jail, arrested, and finally after all that, in 2007, managed to pull myself out. And now it's still in continuous long term recovery. It's been quite a journey.
- [33:25]
Alison Gill
And so you and I chatted a little bit about the problem with fentanyl coming over the border, for example. You talk to me a little bit about how you've got to curtail demand.
- [33:39]
Brian Cuban
That's right.
- [33:40]
Alison Gill
So talk a little bit about that. What you were, what you were discussing with me with this border bill that we had, that bipartisan border bill that, you know, was supposed to have some really great technology in it to detect fentanyl coming over the border. But of course, Donald Trump wanted to kill that because he couldn't give a win to the current administration because it would hurt his chances in the election. But, you know, talk a little bit about that, about the demand problem.
- [34:03]
Brian Cuban
Sure. I mean, we've been, the war on drugs has been going on since Nixon and we've been trying to curtail demand, you know, and you have price fluctuations and back then it was blow and you know, you had the quote, unquote crack epidemic, which all that, all that did was put people of color in jail. Right. You know, for no good reason. So what we have is just people have, are always going to want to change how they feel. So you really, you know, you can disrupt the, you can disrupt the flow across the border, but you're never going to stop it. You're never going to stop it. Mexico is not going to go to war with its cartels and split and spill blood in their streets. The vast majority of people who are arrested for bringing it across the border are not Mexican citizens crossing over outside of the ports of entry. It is US citizens coming through legal ports of entry.
- [34:56]
Alison Gill
Right.
- [34:57]
Brian Cuban
And so it's until we address why people want to change how they feel, the human condition, and figure out how we can move people who want to change they feel into legitimate treatment and do those kind of things, People are always going to get high. Mexico is always going to, you know, the cartel is always going to look for ways to address that demand. And this is just, you know, wasted rhetoric that was meant to demonize people south of the border. That's all it was. That's all it was. Great. Build your wall. Okay? Build your wall. Wait, you know, whatever you want to do there. That's not going to stop the flow. That's not going to stop the flow. So how do we, how do we stop the flow? Well, we talked about, we have the technology that Trump, you know, that's in the border bill that Trump killed so he can say, you know, that he did that. Well, this technology apparently, you know, is apparently good stuff where it has the ability to detect, you know, how fentanyl, you know, the shapes of packages and stuff for every car crossing. So that's fine. But what's going to happen is for every action, there's a reaction. The cartels are going to find a way around that. It's probably not future proof and it's still going to get through. Or maybe, you know, the cartels will keep throwing product at it and see how it works and it's still going to come across the border. And one thing Trump said was, well, prices will skyrocket and so people will stop using, right? People will use less. That's not how demand works. That is not how demand work. Prices will skyrocket. I've lived this with cocaine. And people will find a way to get it. What is the definition of addiction? Obsessive compulsive drug seeking behavior in the face of known consequences. It is not going to stop demand or is not going to slow demand. So we're seeing all of these narratives that were designed to win an election when we really need to figure out what is going on in our own country. Why do children want to get Percocets to change how they feel that are laced with fentanyl? Why are our teams doing that? And the vast majority of the drug using population are not, frankly, not addicted. Right. They don't qualify for addiction. There are so many issues right here in our own country that have to be addressed. And you have solutions from the right, all these law enforcement solutions and you have solutions moving to the left where it's not going to be easy here and people lose their minds. But if you legalize it, regulate it and have a drug supply that isn't tainted, overdoses will plummet. They will absolutely plummet. Will people still overdose on heroin? Sure, to the extent you can get it. Will there still be fentanyl? And there'll be a problem, sure. But it will be so much less. And Canada has tried that to a degree. And people have, you know, you see, you know, what's going on with their elections. People don't like it. The right versus the left, it's the same thing. But this is what I've seen. And we have so many weird narratives that go around Fentanyl. No, cops do not over cops. You can't overdose on it just by being around it or touching it. You know, you see all of these stories about cops who, you know, they sniff, you know, they claim they sniffed it, they touched a baggie and they face plant, right? And it's this overdose.
- [38:26]
Alison Gill
It reminds me of the people who. Who say that they feel different and weird because they were on a bus with people who got the COVID vaccine and they were in and like, people who got the vaccine slough off vaccine to the people around them. It's like, what on earth are you talking about? It's bizarre. But so I think something else we have to do, you know, because we legalize, move toward the left to increase treatment, increase health care, but also the stigma. We gotta get rid of this stigma. And I think we were getting kind of close there with some of the real public love between Joe Biden and Hunter Biden that we saw. And some of that. The lev parnas asking for forgiveness from Hunter. And then we have people on the right showing nude photos of somebody who was an addict in Congress. Just this whole stigma. There's a fight there, I think, that we have to really, like, take head on.
- [39:32]
Brian Cuban
Oh, I agree. 100 and it's terrible. I mean, Hunter Biden was no different than anyone else other, you know, than. Than he has a, you know, his father in the name. I mean, he was a person struggling. He was a human being struggling with addiction that deserved compassion. No different than me or someone in Kensington, Philadelphia, struggling on the street. That's unknown, right? Living on the street. We are all human beings. And you know, where you where I see this sometimes, and this really shows the stigma. Narcan, okay? Narcan reduces opioid overdoses. You can inject it or spray it. So you see stories, they come in. In Pittsburgh, they're in Philly, they're even in Dallas. You may have them in D.C. narcan, vending machines. Every time I see a story where people can go and just get a Narcan and they're often free, and every time I see a Story about Narcan vending machines. It is the right, always the right. Who says this is ridiculous? My tax money is paying for this. You know, let them die or, you know, all you are doing is encouraging more them to use again. Right? That's called moral hazard. Moral hazard has been debunked across the board.
- [40:48]
Alison Gill
Right.
- [40:48]
Brian Cuban
And here's what we know. What is the only criteria to recovery? If you want people to go into recovery, assuming they fit the criteria for substance use disorder, what is the only criteria? To be alive, to be above ground. Narcan keeps people alive. Have one of these politicians lose one of their children and ask them if they wish the person they were using with had Narcan. Right? One of these right wing politicians lose one of their kids. Now, I'm obviously not wishing that on anyone, but ask them.
- [41:20]
Alison Gill
But that's what it takes these days. Unless it happens to them, it's not their problem. That, at least that seems to be sort of the mindset of folks on the right. So.
- [41:29]
Brian Cuban
Yeah, and I see it, and I see it online. People who were anti Narcan, anti this, anti that, you know, just throw them in jail and all of a sudden they lose a child. And boy does their. Boy does their tune change quickly. And it's tragic that that is what has to change the tune. So there is the stigma and the Hunter Biden episode just shows how brutal it is because the person sitting next to you can be saying all the right things because they need to. And deep down inside, they couldn't care less. And they think, this drug, drug addict, drug addict, drug addict, you know, why is this my problem? Just pull yourself up. Just pull yourself up. If it was that simple, you know, there would be no one struggling with addiction.
- [42:22]
Alison Gill
Right?
- [42:22]
Brian Cuban
And, and you know, and moving back to fentanyl, if what these cops say is true, and it's never been verified through toxicology where you can overdose just by being around fentanyl, there would be half a million drug users, fentanyl users dropping dead every day. Every first responder would drop dead. It's just stupid. It is just absolutely stupid.
- [42:44]
Alison Gill
Yeah, no, I agree. Well, I've been having a wonderful time chatting with you. We need to talk about your book because that's why you're here, because I love this book. It's called the Body Brokers. And tell us basically the overview of the story here, because this is fiction. But is it.
- [43:04]
Brian Cuban
It's fiction, but it's based on a true story and it has real life. It's, you know, kind of Ripped from the headlines about. From a treatment center that was masquerading as a front for fentanyl distribution. I mean, it was a front for fentanyl distribution kind of masquerading as a treatment center. And it is about a disgraced lawyer. Pittsburgh, of course, because that's where I'm from. Who finds his girlfriend dead of a fentanyl overdose. And his journey, along with her toxicologist roommate to prove that she was actually murdered, takes him from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, the Kensington neighborhood of Philadelphia, which is kind of ground zero of the fentanyl epidemic. And along the way, there are challenges, and they find out that there is really a lot more to what happened. And I have used the body brokers, really, to also dispel some of these myths and misinformation about fentanyl, The Southern border, passive exposure. And so I'm, you know, I'm proud. I'm proud of the book, but I'm also proud of actually being, I think, probably the first novelist to actually treat fentanyl and something other than a stereotype and actually address the signs. Now, there are a lot of novels out there. I may be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that I am the first.
- [44:18]
Alison Gill
Wow. That's spectacular, my friend. And thank you for writing it. I really recommend everybody Read. It's a quick read, too. It's like you. It's easy. It's good. Like, do you know what I mean? It's not. It's one of those books where you could pick it up and, you know, you could finish it in a day or two.
- [44:33]
Brian Cuban
Yeah.
- [44:34]
Alison Gill
And I appreciate that.
- [44:35]
Brian Cuban
Which is the way I write them. Right. It's. No one's. You know, no one's gonna mistake it for F. Scott Fitzgerald, but it's a fast. I think it's a fun read, you know, and before you know it, it's over.
- [44:45]
Alison Gill
Yeah. It's got a lot of good information in there, too. That's my favorite kind of fiction, where you learn stuff about real life and. And also dispel misinformation, which helps us with the stigma problem. Brian, it's been so great to talk to you. I hope you come back on soon. I assume your book's available everywhere. Yeah.
- [45:03]
Brian Cuban
Yes, if. Wherever books are sold. If. If you're not an Amazon person, you can find it pretty much anywhere.
- [45:08]
Alison Gill
Yeah, I. I like to order from my small local bookstores.
- [45:12]
Brian Cuban
Yeah. Support your indie. Support your indie.
- [45:14]
Alison Gill
Yep. 100%. All right, my friend. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on today. Is there any last thoughts you want to part with? Any, like, parting thoughts you want to leave everyone with before we get out of here?
- [45:24]
Brian Cuban
Yes, it's that everybody knows somebody who is struggling, right? Whether it's, you know, a mental health issue or fentanyl or cocaine or, you know, just straight, straight opioid addiction through pills, we all know we're all just a step or two away from someone who is struggling. And here's what I have found that people are so often afraid or unwilling to do. And as we go through life, you know, concerned with, obviously fearful of what the next 40 years bring under this, you know, under this tyrant, and just remember that you have the ability to possibly change a life with two, just two words. I call it the two ask rule. You know, just how are you doing? We do it all the time. How are you doing? And we do it all the time. But it's throw away, right? We walk and we say, but ask and really mean it. How are you doing? And before that conversation breaks, say, do you know that I'm here for you if you want to talk. The two ascral can save a life.
- [46:23]
Alison Gill
Wow. Thank you so much, my friend. I want to thank our guests today, of course, Brian Cuban and Tony Atkins. We appreciate the time and again, always a fascinating conversation, my friend. And I hope we have many more. And until next time, everybody. Thanks everybody for listening this week. I hope you had a wonderful and safe holiday and I hope you have a very happy new year. But Dana and I will be back in your ears before the new year, Monday, December 30th. That's this coming Monday, so tune in. Until then, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other, take care of the planet, take care of your mental health and take care of your family. I've been ag and them's the beans. The Daily Beans is written and executive produced by Allison Gill with additional research and reporting by Dana Goldberg. Sound design and editing is by Desiree McFarlane with art and web design by Joelle Reader with Moxie Design Studios. Music for the Daily Beans is written and performed by they Might Be Giants and the show is a proud member of the MSW Media Network, a collection of creator owned podcasts dedicated to news, politics and justice. For more information, please visit mswmedia.com msw media.