Allison Gill (4:37)

Yeah, because I recall back during the first Trump administration, there were some issues and lawsuits that came out based on unlawful appointments of directors and secretaries, like Chad Wolf, for example. So, you know, you could sue and say he's unlawfully appointed, but what people did was whenever he tried to do something, they would sue and say, he can't do this because he's not lawfully the secretary of the dhs, for example. And so we might actually end up either through recess appointments or through, you know, violations of the, the Vacancies Control Reform Act. You know, we might actually see some unlawful appointments happening, which also opens the door up to a lot of litigation for what these folks in those positions might try to do.

Monica Hopkins (5:28)

Yeah, I think it's when we think about something like, you know, immigration and what might happen, we tend to remember sort of family separation or the Muslim ban and things like that. But what you're talking about matter these, like, sort of administrative procedure, wonky, you know, gum up the system, litigation pieces, you know, and additionally, the ACLU does not only sort of litigation, but also watching the political process in which these things are actually happening on the front end before they happen. Right. And so there is this education piece of like, can you do that? Can you not do that? What is the law? And sort of advocating and raising our voices before appointments are made. So if you look at, you know, people raising their voices against the, you know, nomination of Matt Gaetz. Right. And so there are all these avenues that the ACLU uses in order to not just gum up the system, but to ensure that we're protecting civil rights and civil liberties and also that, you know, we retain our democracy.

Allison Gill (6:47)

There's that. Let's talk about raising our voices, because, you know, I remember when January 6th rolled around and everyone was like, oh, you know, let's go and protest. And I'm like, I am not going anywhere near January. And I think most people were like, I'm not going anywhere near that. And Donald Trump has, we'll be honest, has a history of trying to send the military after protesters, unmarked vans, trying to dub places like Seattle and Portland anarchic jurisdictions so that he can send unmarked, I don't know, forest rangers out to arrest people or whatever, but he has a history of anti protest and anti civil liberties in that sense. And now our new DOJ civil liberties head is gonna be Hermeet Dhillon, who is also very against that kind of thing. So DC being kind of ground zero for a lot of this stuff. What advice do you have for people who are interested in raising their voices and exercising their First Amendment right to protest and peacefully protest? Because it's going to be a lot more difficult, I feel, in the next four years.

Monica Hopkins (7:58)

Yeah, I think that the most important thing is that folks actually know what their rights are. And it's kind of the most powerful thing that people have in order to protect their rights. And so, particularly here in the District of Columbia, if folks are coming to the District of Columbia to protest, on our website, we have a know your rights brochure that actually lines out what your rights are for demonstrating in the District of Columbia, which is really important because of all the different law enforcement agencies that we actually have here in the District of Columbia that you may interact with. And, you know, people are very concerned about the militarization. We still have the rule of law. We can still litigate and hold the government accountable, just like we did in the case for Lafayette Square, indicating that the militarization, you know, that has been happening, the use of pepper spray and flashbang grenades and things like that are unconstitutional sort of overreaches in the First Amendment context. So, yeah, there's still guardrails for the First Amendment here. And, you know, people should know what their rights are and make choices accordingly. But we will be there as the ACLU and the ACLU of D.C. to push back against violations of the First Amendment.

Allison Gill (9:34)

Now, I know I'm going a little tinfoil hat here, but what in what about in situations where The Insurrection act is invoked, martial laws invoked, or somebody, I don't know, suspends your writ of habeas corpus or, or something to that effect. And I know, like, never in my life have I thought, oh, what, what if, you know, because I figure, like, if I'm detained for something, I have due process under law, but what if I don't anymore? Is the ACLU thinking about those things even though they're kind of way out there in Extremeville?

Monica Hopkins (10:08)

Yeah. I think it's fair to say that we have been running scenarios. We have been.

Allison Gill (10:17)

Thank you. Good. Thank you for doing that.

Monica Hopkins (10:20)

Yeah. I mean, even before the election, this was a very pivotal sort of election and there were two very different candidates. And so when we look at the landscape, we as the ACLU thought what would happen in one administration. Administration and what would happen or may happen in another administration. And so we have been thinking through different scenarios. And what we come up with is, number one, despair is not a strategy. And what we know is we still do have the rule of law, we still do have separations of powers. We do still, no matter how much folks want to sort of beat up on our judicial system, we still do have a judicial system that we can rely on as the separations of power to chime in and to actually stop some things. We sued the Trump administration 1.0 over 434 times. And, you know, when we won even with Trump appointed judges. So.

Allison Gill (11:37)

Right. It's really just those six I'm worried about up at the tippy top.

Monica Hopkins (11:42)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what's interesting about that is, you know, it is the tippy top. Right. And they only see a few hundred cases. Right. And so thousands.

Allison Gill (11:55)

Yeah.

Monica Hopkins (11:55)

We have to remember that there are thousands that they will never see, and those make a difference.

Allison Gill (12:02)

And it still takes a minute to get to those six as well. So it helps. It helps with the delay.

Monica Hopkins (12:09)

They weren't kidding when they said the wheels of justice move slowly. I think they were talking about the court system.

Allison Gill (12:14)

Yeah. We need a system of justice that moves within a four year time period. Right. But I mean, you know, when you get to the tippy top and they say, oh, you're free to go because you're immune, it becomes a little more difficult. Let's talk a little bit about Schedule F. There's going to be a lot of trying to move DC employees out of DC Firing DC employees out of agencies under the Schedule F, which was, you know, he attempted to implement at the end of his first term, but it was overturned by President Biden's administration. As a former civil servant myself, I'm concerned about all of my friends, the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who work for the federal government who are now, according to the Washington Post, scrambling to get insurance, to change their titles if they have DEI anywhere near their title, to maybe go to a move to an organization in a lateral move that doesn't have as big a target on its back as, say, the FBI or DOJ or the Environmental Protection Agency? How is the ACLU situated to help those employees with wrongful termination suits or trying to slow down the gutting that Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk want to take to our federal government, our system, our actual system of bureaucracy?

Monica Hopkins (13:30)

Yeah. And so, you know, we look at this in the way that a lot of people are articulating. So we are concerned about the firing, what essentially is sort of the firing or moving folks out of civil service, essentially because Trump views them as enemies. Right. And that going after employees is sort of this retaliation in an unconstitutional way. And it would mean a whole sale transformation of our federal government and the appointment of individuals who don't know the laws that govern the procedures that govern because they're beholden to carrying out the policies of an administration, rather than the administration of government as it is. And there are still protections in place for workers within the federal government as it is right now. So it is something we are concerned about. It is something that we are watching, and we will continue monitoring it. We will continue having conversations with folks in the District of Columbia, as you can imagine, is sort of like an industry town.

Allison Gill (15:01)

Yeah. I'm wondering if your phone is ringing off the hook more than it was maybe a year ago. And I want to ask you more in, you know, generally about the criminal justice system, but also I want to talk about D.C. statehood. But I do need to take a quick break, so everybody stick around. We'll be right back.

Monica Hopkins (15:20)

Captain, these messages will derive at.

Allison Gill (15:26)

Hey, everybody, welcome back. We're talking with Monica Hopkins. She's the executive director for the American Civil Liberties Union in the District of Columbia. And before we took the break, I wanted to mention I wanted to talk about D.C. statehood and D.C. autonomy, and I can't remember the legal term of art for its autonomousness, but a lot of people are very concerned that they might lose that and it might get swallowed up into the state of Virginia or something like that. Can you talk a little bit about what your organization is prepping for in that arena?

Monica Hopkins (15:57)

Yeah. So as the local ACLU affiliate Here in the District of Columbia, we are deeply concerned about D.C. statehood, specifically home rule as the sort of term of our. The Home rule Act allows D.C. residents to elect our city council. We pass our own laws, we raise and spend our own tax dollars. But basically, it's much like a state. But unlike any other state, we have this congressional interference. So you can imagine being a state, let's just say it was Idaho. Who can elect their own officials in their state, raise their own tax and spend their own tax dollars and, you know, pass their own laws. And then you would have another state like Nebraska coming over and saying, well, you know, Idaho, we don't think you should spend your tax dollars on that, or, we want to rescind these laws you already passed, or we think we're going to pass this law in your state. No one would ever think that that was okay because no Nebraska people were elected in the state of Idaho. And yet the Home Rule act allows us to do all those things that a state would. But Congress can interfere in those three ways. And so the deepest concern we have here is Trump has said several times he wants to revoke home rule. And additionally, in the last congressional session, there were over 90 different ways that Congress tried to interfere in the District of Columbia, including some incredibly ridiculous ones, like telling the District residents that they can't make right turns on red lights. And I'm pretty sure that people who were voting for elected officials to represent them in Congress weren't thinking, you know, I really don't want District residents to turn right on red lights.

Allison Gill (18:11)

Right. No. And, and what about. Because, you know, we have the filibuster still. We didn't nuke it, but to revoke home rule, would that require 60 votes? Or is that something they could try to sneak in on, budget reconciliation, calling it some sort of a spending issue? Do you know what I mean?

Monica Hopkins (18:31)

The Home Rule act is, you know, an act, so it would have to be, like, fully revoked. Yeah, it would have to be repealed.

Allison Gill (18:41)

All right, well, glad we didn't get rid of the filibust as much as I want to all the time. It's. It's there now. So that. That I think will make it more difficult, as will organizations like the aclu, who can always litigate and drag it out in. In the courts, where we still have a few guardrails, which I'm very happy about. All right, let's talk about just in general, improving the criminal justice system, because there, you know, we. We touched on this a little bit when, when we first started Chatting. But the wheels of justice turn very slowly. So how do we make sure that we, you know, the reason that the wheels turn slowly is because we have all of these protections in place. Due process. This was the argument against presidential immunity when Justice Sotomayor and Justice Jackson were like, look, our system isn't perfect, but we have tons of guardrails in place to prevent a rogue prosecutor from going after political enemies, like a grand jury, like a pettit jury, like a trial, like. Like our. Our due process rights. And so, you know, every time someone's like, why didn't we just arrest Trump faster? It's like, well, he has due process like every other criminal defendant. But it seems like certain criminal defendants get all the due process in the world and not so much for others. And that's why the ACLU work is so important, is because you try to make sure that instead of taking us down on the, you know, the. The wealthy to where everyone else is, we're trying to lift everybody up to have the same due process that that Donald Trump, for example, was. Was afforded. So what are. Talk a little bit about the criminal justice system and what we can do to improve it.

Monica Hopkins (20:25)

Yeah. Wow. That. That is like a show all in of itself.

Allison Gill (20:30)

You know, how much time do you have?

Monica Hopkins (20:32)

Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think.

Allison Gill (20:35)

Well, first, supporting the ACLU and is. Is a way that the average everyday person can help fight to protect the criminal justice system.

Monica Hopkins (20:43)

Absolutely. I mean, people becoming members of the ACLU has helped us over the years work in. In state legislatures, in the D.C. council, and in Congress to do lobbying around criminal justice reform. We have worked on that for decades on criminal justice Refor. You know, as you've mentioned several times, you know, supporting the ACLU has helped us litigate when there are violations of law. And, you know, one of the things, too, when we're thinking about our criminal justice system and we're thinking about due process, you mentioned petit juries, and you mentioned grand juries, and really knowing the importance of serving, knowing what your role is, too, in serving. Juries and jury trials are just such a powerful thing in our democracy for people who sit on juries to understand that their role is really to prevent government overreach. And so I think that part of what you're talking about in our criminal justice system is really important to remember that, you know, in these prosecutions that the prosecutor represents the state and the role of the jury is to make sure that they are preventing that overreach. That's one piece. But then also, you Know, when we're talking about our criminal justice system, essentially what we're talking about is what is completely upstream also, and what laws are we passing on the books that give the tools that can be used, as you were saying, possibly in disparate ways, depending on what population, that of individuals we are talking about. And that's why ensuring that we have those due process rights in place are so important. Yeah.

Allison Gill (22:51)

And I think the jurisdiction is important too, especially at ACLU in D.C. and that's why it's so important we preserve home rule so that the juries don't get diluted. And we actually have Those juries in D.C. sitting on these cases because most of the cases against what Donald Trump does are going to be brought in the District of Columbia.

Monica Hopkins (23:12)

Yeah. And what's interesting is that a lot of people don't know this. Right. The district court is here in the District of Columbia. And as the ACLU of D.C. we are really in an interesting place. So we are on a lot of those cases, oftentimes in partnership with our national office, litigating in, in those cases. And so that is really important here in the District of Columbia that people know when you serve on juries, that is, that is your role and it's a very, very important role.

Allison Gill (23:49)

Yeah. And the, and the bench is great too. I mean, even, even some of the Trump appointees, Nichols, I didn't like what he did to 1512 c2 obstruction of justice. But, but you know, most of the judges are, you know, seem fair minded and there, there are some really great ones too. Amy Berman Jackson and Judge Beryl Howell, Judge Boasberg. So it's a great bench. The D.C. circuit is, is a great circuit, I think. So, you know, and the, and the juries, the Pettit and the grand juries, there's a lot to work with there for. You know, for example, when Bill Barr, rogue prosecutor, tried to take Andy McCabe to task and get him indicted, apparently Andy McCabe's not a ham sandwich because two grand juries refused to indict him. And so that's the kind of integrity in our judicial system we need to preserve. And I think that's why The ACLU in D.C. is leading the way in a lot of these cases, particularly when we're talking about the jurisdiction question. So all of this is super important. And I want you to talk a little bit about how everyday folks who are listening to this from all around the country can help support the aclu because, like, have you grown? Like, what do you have the Resources necessary for the next four years because I feel like it probably was difficult to grow fast enough to get that done.

Monica Hopkins (25:10)

Yeah. So, you know, there are several ways that people can actually support us. So the lowest level is sort of and meaningful at the same time is to become a member of the aclu. Super simple. You know, become a member, think about also, you know, making a contribution. You can talk to your family and friends about the importance of D.C. statehood. And if you need a little bit of help around what should I say? We have actually made a handy dandy guide on our website about how to talk to family and friends about D.C. statehood. So we made a it easy for you. And also, you know, really same go to our website and download that demonstrations guide in D.C. and share it with folks. The resources, you know, we need the resources for the long haul. There is what is right in front of us another, you know, four years. But as we saw with the Trump administration, one, we will be here as the ACLU even past this administration to ensure that civil rights and civil liberties are protected and that we ensure we still have a rule of law that our government is functioning like it should for the purposes that it should. And so that takes resources. And so those are the ways that folks can engage and support our work here in the District of Columbia.

Allison Gill (26:52)

And do you accept any like, like if there's lawyers listening who could do. Do donate lawyer time, do you do that at all? Or is it. Is it to membership is kind of the best way it.

Monica Hopkins (27:03)

That's the best way. It's the easiest way. We also, you know, have volunteers like the volunteers that came to us last time across a number. We work in some of our cases with cooperating attorneys. So if, if people are looking for a way to engage, there are ways.

Allison Gill (27:23)

To engage, to volunteer. Wonderful. And all that can be found on, on your website. So all in one place. I love that you can download a guide to how to talk to your family about the aclu because, you know, sometimes starting those conversations can be difficult. And I think it's, I think it's wonderful that you, that you supply all of that, everything anybody needs to, to, to help support the organization. So I really appreciate your time today coming on and talking to me about all this. It can get kind of wonky. But it's so, so important that we ensure that our government is functioning properly and that the wheels of justice are at least turning. Maybe we can, maybe we can work to turn them a little faster while also making sure that we preserve everyone's due process. And rights under that are afforded under the Constitution as criminal defendants. But you know, I think you're going to have a lot of plaintiffs this time around, my friend. So I really appreciate the work you're doing. And thanks for joining us. Monica Hopkins, thank you so much. All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to the Daily Beans today. We will be back in your ears tomorrow with more interviews. Until then, please take care of yourselves, take care of your mental health, take care of each other, and take care of the planet and your family. I've been ag and them's the Beans.

Dana Goldberg (28:37)

The Daily Beans is written and executive produced by Allison Gill with additional research and reporting by Dana Goldberg. Sound design and editing is by Desiree McFarlane with art and web design by Joelle Reader with Moxie Design Studios. Music for the Daily Beans is written and performed by they Might Be Giants and the show is a proud member of the MSW Media Network, a collection of creator owned podcasts dedicated to news, politics and justice. For more information please visit mswmedia.com msw media.