C (2:53)

Absolutely.

B (2:54)

All right. We have new episodes of the Breakdown available on Midas Touch. You can watch it@mullersherote.com, no paywalls there. We have a new episode of Unjustified out with me and Andy McCabe and I had A new discussion with Joyce Vance on Substack that we're going to drop into this episode of the Beans for you. And Joyce and I go over the legal wonkiness in layman's terms about those, you know, administrative warrants that are violative of the Fourth Amendment, that allow ICE to just break your door down and go into your house. And we're going to also talk a little bit about how Minnesota state prosecutors can actually get a prosecution done in both the Renee Good and Alex Preddy cases. So I think you'll look forward to that interview. And I. I just want to check in. This murder of Alex Preddy took place over the weekend since. Since we last were here on the beans. And I just wanted to check in and make sure everyone's doing okay. That was a really, really hard day, even for the strongest of people.

C (3:57)

I was going to say, I don't think any of us are doing okay. I think we're trying to figure out how to get through this. Like, my heart hurts. I sent a text to a friend. I said, my heart can't take much more of this. How does it end? How does this stop? And, I mean, we talk about this on the Beans all the time. Like, I'm not okay today. I haven't been okay this weekend. Like, I've been sort of in shock of like, oh, my God, we're here. We are in an authoritarian state.

B (4:26)

Yeah. And I got together with a bunch of the old nurses that I worked with at the Department of Veterans affairs to make sure that we checked in on as many people as we could to see, just to check in. I mean, we can guess how they're doing, but it's okay to not be okay, I think, is the point that we wanted to make. I mean, we watched the video, then we watched the second video, then we watched the third angle. And now Washington Post has a pretty good breakdown of what you see. And it's clear to our eyes and ears, you know, the party told you to forget what you. What you saw with your eyes and heard with your own ears. But Alex Preddy was trying to help a woman who had just been brutally assaulted by ice.

C (5:12)

Yeah.

B (5:14)

And was sprayed with chemical spray, held down someone removed his gun, which he had lawfully, and then just shot him in the back. Unloaded like 10 shots in order to manage.

C (5:29)

The video's horrifying. I know we're going to talk about this more probably on the Beans talk. Yeah, it's. It's just one of those things that, like, your settings on Your phone are probably set to just play videos as they come through. This is a tough. It's another tough one to watch. I don't know what else to say.

B (5:46)

About it other than that, yeah, it is very tough to watch. And then we find out DHS wants to investigate itself. It doesn't even want the FBI involved. They're like, kash Patel, you're too fucking stupid to help us cover this up properly. So they've not just iced out Minnesota, they've iced out the FBI. And they said, we're going to look into this ourselves. Even though they've already put out their verdict about what happened. Yep. And it's totally wrong. We're going to show you some contradictory video over on Beans Talk. When Bovino appeared on the Sunday shows and the questions were put to him like, what are you talking about? He brandished a gun. What are you talking about? He was going to massacre law enforcement. Which was Bovino's statement that this guy wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement. And, you know, on Saturday, Minnesota, Keith Ellison, the Attorney General and the Hennepin County District attorney, Moriarty, gathered multiple affidavits from witnesses, including that woman in the pink coat. I'm sure we all know who the woman in the pink coat is by now. And a doctor who was on the scene, they filed a restraining order against the government to prevent them from destroying evidence. They're like, usually we don't have to ask the federal government to not destroy evidence, but based on their actions on the scene, where they let the crime scene collapse and just left, and based on their lies and their statements, we need a restraining order asking them to preserve the evidence, to not destroy it or tamper with it. And by the end of the night, a Trump appointed judge had granted that restraining order. And there's going to be a hearing today about it at 2pm Eastern. So for that to have happened all the same day, all within maybe like 13 or 14 hours, those lawyers were working their asses off along with Keith Ellison and the Hennepin County District attorney. So we'll keep an eye on that for you, but it's a lot. So something else. Senate Democrats have apparently been whipped enough to kill the DHS funding bill, thank God, which in the Senate is actually not just a GHS funding bill. It's been grouped into a package of six bills all at once. And they're going to to vote no on cloture. Remember how before Schumer voted yes on cloture and then voted no on the simple Majority, they're going to vote no on cloture. And it's not just dhs. It's Treasury, Housing Urban Development, the sfops, which is the State Department and Foreign Operations, Labor, Department of Labor, hhs, Department of Education, fsgg, which is Financial Services and General government. That's like the courts, the District of Columbia, Executive Office of the President, and the Department of Defense, all of that. Now, the Democrats want to pull DHS out, but I don't think John Thune will do that. But they're not going to vote on this if it has DHS in it. And again, I want to remind everybody, ICE is fully funded through the end of time, pretty much because of the big ugly bill. But this would shut down Customs and Border Protection in about two months. But all those other things would get shut down, too. And Dana, I think we're going to run into the same thing that we ran into in the government shutdown in November. Do you remember when we shut it down in the airports?

C (9:03)

Yep. The.

B (9:04)

The airline lobbies called their buddies and eventually the government was open again. Because corporations, like money talks.

C (9:14)

Money talks. Yeah.

B (9:16)

And I hope the Dems don't cave on that. They have to know that that's where the pain point is going to be and that it would be coming again if they shut the government down. So hopefully they won't do that again this time.

C (9:25)

Agreed?

B (9:26)

Agreed.

C (9:27)

Also, three people Pandy arrested for going into that church with on Lemon. They've been ordered released from prison because they're not a danger to the community. And the 8th Circuit denied Bondi's request for arrest warrants for the others as frivolous.

E (9:42)

I thought they were domestic terrorists.

C (9:44)

The smackdown on this has been pretty awesome.

B (9:46)

The judge was like, you're stupid. Basically, fuck off. But, you know, I'm paraphrasing. But also that FBI agent who we talked about who sought to investigate Jonathan Ross in the murder of Renee Good. She resigned from the Bureau. Her name is Tracy Mergan. She left her job as a supervisor in the FBI's Minneapolis field office because she opened a civil rights investigation. Because that's what you do when somebody murders somebody like that. But Bureau leadership in D.C. and aides from Todd Blanche's office pressured her to discontinue the civil rights inquiry. And so she resigned. They said, we'll fire you if you don't do this. And she left.

C (10:29)

Amazing. That. I mean, amazing. Oh, get this, AG. After Good was killed on January 7th, apparently FBI agents drafted a search warrant to obtain her car to reconstruct the path of bullets that an ICE officer. We know who that is. Jonathan Ross shot into the vehicle. But they were obstructed to redraft their warrant and change the subject of the investigation from a civil rights probe to an investigation into a suspected assault on an officer. This is what the people said. A federal magistrate judge rejected that warrant, noting that Good was already dead and could not be considered a suspect for a warrant. I didn't know you had to figure say that shit out loud. And apparently you do. And that's according to Carol Leonig at msnow.

B (11:11)

So they told him to shut down the investigation into Ross and open one into Renee Good, who had been murdered.

C (11:20)

Yep.

B (11:21)

The murder victim. Open an investigation into her. And the judge is like, you can't. That's what you know.

C (11:26)

God, it's disgusting.

B (11:27)

It is. It's all very disgusting. And again, I know. I just. I'm sending love to everybody because it was a tough. It was a tough weekend and we've had a lot of those recently. So.

E (11:39)

Yeah.

D (11:40)

All right.

B (11:41)

We have a lot more news to get to, but we have to take a quick break. Stick around.

E (11:43)

We'll be right back after these messages. We'll be right back.

B (11:50)

Hey, everyone. We're deep into winter, which means cozy nights and more reasons to show up with something nice when you're headed to your friend's place.

D (11:57)

Place.

B (11:57)

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F (13:40)

It's no surprise that newsmakers try to manipulate the audience. They want you to believe that they are the one holding the line and they'll use any trick they can to get you there.

B (13:48)

But don't let them fool you.

F (13:49)

Get Unspun I'm Amanda Sturgel. I've been a reporter and today I teach future reporters to cut the spirit in and think critically about what newsmakers say. My podcast, Unspun shows you how to know when you're being manipulated by the news, learn to spot the tricks and how to make up your own mind about what's true. So if you're tired of being fooled by the news, subscribe to UNSPUN today. Unspun because you deserve the truth.

B (14:18)

All right, welcome back. It's time for the Hot Notes. Hot Notes. All right, first up from cbs, Attorney General Pam Bondi is pushing Minnesota Governor Tim Wall to let the federal government access the state's voter rolls and public assistance data as tensions flare in Minneapolis after a second person was murdered Saturday by federal immigration agents assigned to a weeks long crackdown in the city. In a three page letter obtained by cbs, Bondi urged the state of Minnesota to scrap all sanctuary city policies and cooperate fully with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, including giving the agency access to all local jails and honoring federal agents request to detain people, quote, I'm confident that these simple steps will help bring back law and order to Minnesota and improve the lives of Americans. That's what she wrote in her letter to the governor Saturday, which accused state officials of anti law enforcement rhetoric and putting federal agents in danger. The Trump administration is pressed for greater access to Minnesota jails and prisons for weeks, suggesting it may roll back immigration operations in the state if it had more power to go into detention facilities and pursue people accused of being in the U.S. illeg. State corrections officials say they already cooperate with ICE, but cooperation varies at the county level. Bondi said the federal government needs to access state voter roll data to confirm that Minnesota's voter registration practices comply with federal law. The Justice Department has pushed Minnesota and other states to provide voter registration data for months, suing Minnesota for access to the data last year. But the department typically hasn't tied that push to immigration enforcement efforts in the past, and Bondi demanded that the state share records on Medicaid and snap, also known as food stamps, so the federal government can, quote, efficiently investigate fraud as the Trump administration focuses on alleged fraud schemes in Minnesota public assistance programs. The governor's office reacted to the letter by urging the Trump administration to engage in a serious conversation about ending this federal occupation. In a statement Sunday, Walz's office sharply criticized the conduct of federal immigration agents, including Saturday's fatal shooting of Alex and the shooting that killed Renee Goode. By Jonathan Ross. Quote, this is not common sense, lawful immigration enforcement. That's not what this occupation is about, and it's not what the attorney general's letter is about. It's a shakedown. And, and if you, if you're willing.

E (16:44)

To pull ICE out, if you can.

B (16:46)

Get the voter rolls, then there was never an emergency to send ICE in in the first place.

C (16:49)

A hundred percent. That whole thing made me so fucking angry when I heard it. All right. Minnesota also participated in a general strike. And this is what we're talking about. The top this is a big deal. Even though it's on a local level, it's a big deal. The New York Times reported on it, which is a little bit shocking. They also reported on the massive peaceful protests. This is what the Times wrote. Thousands of protesters shut down Parts of Minneapolis St. Paul on Friday as hundreds of businesses closed their doors and workers and students stayed home to demand an end to the sweeping immigration crackdown that has rolled the Twin Cities for weeks. Weeks now. The action on Friday, which unfolded in sub zero temperatures, we're talking negative 20 with windchill, everybody, was the most widespread and organized demonstration since federal agents arrived in Minneapolis more than six weeks ago. It was aimed at pressuring the federal government to pull thousands of its agents from the streets. Businesses, many of them locally owned, closed their doors to halt economic activity, saying that losing a day's revenue was worth the cost to be part of the effort to end the immigration enforcement. And this is a quote. There's a time to stand up for things. This is it. This is from Alison Kirwan, owner of Al's Breakfast, which is a Minneapolis restaurant that closed on Friday. We all know where to go. Support everyone, Al's Breakfast, she said. If it takes away from a day of our income, that is worthwhile. The largest of the protests on Friday descended on downtown Minneapolis from late afternoon into early evening, as thousands have marched in the Target center, the home arena of the state's two professional basketball teams. Protesters carried signs and chanted over and over iced Leave the city. Randy Weingartner, the president of the American Federation of Teachers, delivered an impassioned speech at the Target center praising Minnesotans for taking a day away from their typical activities to make their voices heard. Hundreds demonstrated at the Minneapolis St. Paul airport earlier on Friday, some of from as far away as New York, flitting in and out of one of its terminals to stay warm. And they were trying to make sure ice wasn't coming in and that they would leave that protest on Friday. Those were all part of a general strike organized by residents, faith leaders and labor unions. Now, the purpose, according to the organizers, was to demonstrate the resolve of residents in neighborhoods around Minneapolis. Many businesses and shops they sat empty, with some posting signs in their windows Expressing solidarity in St. Paul. Roots roasting. There's another one Everybody Roots Roasting had an orange sign announcing their closure. General strike, it read. No work, no school, no shopping. Ice. Out down the street, Spy House Coffee, part of a local chain, had a handwritten sign announcing its closure to stand in solidarity with our community and other businesses. The same was true for just about every coffee mainstay in the Twin Cities. One of the few open was Misfit in Minneapolis, which occupies a large warehouse like building west of downtown. The owner, Marcus Parkinsky, said his way of participating in the strike was to offer only coffee, pastries and espresso shots for free of charge, thanks to a donation from a woman in Texas. There was also be a bottle of bourbon and a bottle of Bailey's for those who want to spike their cup. This is what I'm talking about now for some leaders of local and state unions, the decision over whether to encourage their members to participate in the general strike it was difficult because it was not organized under state and federal strike laws and it was not considered an official work stoppage day. But the push for the boycott, it spread so widely that it became hard to ignore.

B (20:26)

That's fantastic. I love that. He's like, we're gonna stay open, but only for coffee and espresso. And here's a bottle of Bailey's and a bottle of bourbon donated seriously, by a woman in Texas. So amazing. That makes my heart happier, that news, because this is. It's about to get devastating and cruel. This is from the Arizona Mirror. Two gay men who came to the United States seeking asylum are set to be deported out of the Mesa Gateway Airport to their home country of Iran and what their attorney fears will be their deaths. They're scheduled to be deported alongside about 40 other Iranians to a country experiencing widespread unrest after thousands were killed in anti government protests. Homosexuality is a crime in Iran and the country has executed men for it as recently as 2022. Quote, that is punishable by death in Iran. And so there's a very, very real, not speculative, concern. That's Rebecca Wolf, an attorney for the American Immigration Council who is representing these two men. And that's what she told the Arizona Mirror. The last time when we got very, very close to one of them being deported, he was destroying all of his documents. So he wasn't carrying anything with him. Wolf declined to publicly identify her clients out of fear for their safety. But the Mirror has reviewed court documents and detention records that confirm key details about their story. But even if her client isn't carrying any identifying documentation, if he's deported and arrives in Iran, ICE will provide the names of the passengers on the aircraft to Iranian author authorities. The agency is required to cooperate with countries to which it deports people. Now, Wolf's clients, who have no criminal convictions and who both came to the United States in 2025 on asylum claims, were arrested by the Iranian morality police for being gay years ago. That spurred them to flee the country and seek asylum here. On Wednesday, the men were told that they would be deported to Iran along with other Iranian detainees that included Iranian Christian asylum seekers. Quote, we are just really in the dark on where these plans come from, she said. It's the worst case I've ever had and I've been doing this for over 10 years. The Mesa Gateway Airport that the two men are scheduled to fly out of plays a crucial role in ICE's ramping up of aerial deportation efforts. It hosts the agency's headquarters for its ICE air operations, which uses subcontractors and subleases to disguise deportation aircraft. Flight trackers show that a plane departed from Arizona Sunday headed to Kuwait via Egypt, where an Iranian plane was expected to Pick them up. But we just got some breaking news here, Dana. From a reporter at the Arizona Mirror. That attorney representing the two men told the Arizona Mirror that her clients were not on that plane.

C (23:12)

Oh, boy.

B (23:14)

Which is really good news. Some other Iranians were deported, though unclear if any were asylum seekers as well. We should have more information.

C (23:21)

Fantastic. Every once in a while, there's a glimmer of good news in all of this garbage. This is our last story. Speaking of garbage, Ted Cruz was caught on tape trashing J.D. vance and Trump's tariffs, which is shocking. Garbage, trash and garbage. This is from Axios. During his talks, Cruz cast Vance as a pawn of conservative podcaster Tucker Carlson. Cruz has also accused Carlson of promoting antisemitism and anti Israel foreign policy in their well publicized spats. You know what this feels like, though? This feels like Cruz gearing up to run for president again. Remember how he was all fucking big talk against Trump? Oh, he's a piece of shit. This and that, and all of a sudden he was licking his boots. This is what. This is what's going on. I guarantee.

B (24:09)

Yeah, he's got to run against him.

C (24:11)

Yep. The recordings of Cruz were provided to Axios by a Republican source. They were made in early and middle 2025. Cruz warns donors. See donors. That Trump's tariffs could decimate the economy and lead to his impeachment. He tells them that after Trump introduced the tariffs in early 2025 April, Cruz and a few other senators had a call with Trump in which they urged him to stand down. Cruz says the lengthy call, which stretched past midnight, did not go well and that Trump was yelling and cursing. Cruz also said that Trump and I quote, this is what he said. This is what he told him. Mr. President, if we get to November of 2026 and People's 401ks are down 30% and prices are up 10 to 20% at the supermarket. We're going to go into election Day, face a bloodbath. You're going to lose the House, you're going to lose the Senate. You're going to send the next two years being impeached every single week. I think I just got warm, by the way, if you're excited. Yeah, that felt nice. Apparently, Trump replied to Ted Cruz, fuck you. Cruz repeatedly brings up Vance in the recordings, tying him to Tucker Carlson and accusing him of advancing the podcaster's anti interventionalist foreign policy. And this is a quote Tucker created. JD JD Is Tucker's protege and they are one and the same. A Cruise spokesperson said in a statement that the senator is, and I quote, the president's greatest ally in the Senate and battles every day in the trenches to advance his agenda.

E (25:45)

Who, Buddy?

C (25:47)

Big bag of rats.

E (25:49)

Yeah.

B (25:49)

And what do you want to bet Ted Cruz leaked those audio tapes to Axios?

C (25:53)

No. A Republican. Huh.

B (25:57)

All right, well, should be an interesting field of Republicans running for president in 2020. Sure. Cruz, Timu, Wolverine will be one of them. All right, everybody, we have some good news to get to. We're going to drop in that Joyce Vance interview for you. So everybody stick around. We'll be right back. If you've been waiting for a sign to launch that new business you keep talking about, this is it. We all have great ideas and skills, but taking action is what turns your dream into the exciting future that you want. So January is short, so don't let February arrive with the same old story and no momentum. I hit a breakthrough when I moved my work onto Shopify and everything got simpler and more professional. The most powerful move to make it all happen in 2026 is to start your business with Shopify. Shopify gives you what you need to sell online and in person, all in one place. That's why millions of entrepreneurs use it. From household names to someone launching their very first business. Ever wonder how Death Wish Coffee does it all? Well, Shopify is the engine behind brands like that and it can be the engine behind yours too. It's so easy to build a store that looks professional and fast. Shopify has hundreds of beautiful templates you can customize to match your brand so you're not starting from scratch or hiring a whole team on day one. Setup is quick and easy with Shopify's built in tools which help you get your products up and running without turning into a weeks long project. And once you're live, Shopify does not leave you on your own. Marketing's built in so you can create email and social media campaigns and meet customers where they already scroll. Then, as your business grows, Shopify grows with you. You can handle more orders, expand into new markets and manage all all from the same dashboard. Shopify does it for Death Wish Coffee and they'll do it for you too in 2026. Stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com dailybeans Again, go to shopify.com dailybeans that's shopify.com dailybeans Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

A (27:56)

History is messy. It's weird, wild and anything but boring. Rainy Day Rabbit Holes is a history podcast about unhinged stories that make you stop and ask, wait, is this real life? From crazy disasters and tasty scandals to enlightening and surprising heartwarming tales, we explore the moments where people behave badly and sometimes beautifully. We've got naughty politicians, cultural chaos, and a deep love for the Pacific Northwest, including Bigfoot. It's thoughtful, irreverent, a can, occasionally serious, and always entertaining. Let's fall down the rabbit hole.

B (28:31)

MSW Media.

E (28:41)

Hey everyone, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us here on Substack on the breakdown. Welcome to my good friend, longtime friend. We've been covering stuff now, I feel like, for too long.

D (28:52)

Is it a decade? I think it's a decade.

E (28:54)

It's a decade now. I wish we were friends under different circumstances, in a different timeline, but here we are.

B (29:01)

This is Joyce Vance.

E (29:03)

She writes Civil Discourse here on Substack. I encourage everyone to subscribe to her newsletter. And today I wanted to get a little bit more of a legal deep dive. We sort of did this with what Oren Kerr had to write for Lawfare over on the Unjustified podcast today, but I kind of wanted to get it out there in less wonky terms that everyone can understand because we're dealing with a bunch of precedent. So as you probably know by now, DHS issued an internal memo last May that has been uncovered and given over to Congress and whistleblower aid by two DHS whistleblowers. And what this memo does is it tells you to ignore the Fourth Amendment, ignore all your ICE training materials, and go ahead and enter someone's home and use force if necessary, using nothing but an administrative I205 warrant rather than a warrant signed by a judge. A judicial warrant, which is traditionally like it's in all their training materials. How you are supposed to go about doing that. And there's reasons for that and there's a lot of court precedent about that. And so what we learned from that internal memoir is that there was some Office of General Counsel decision made at the Department of Homeland Security that apparently gives the legal reasoning as to why you should be able to ignore the Fourth Amendment and go ahead and enter.

B (30:28)

On administrative warrant only.

E (30:30)

Now, I have filed a Freedom of Information act request for those documents. I doubt I'll get them under deliberative process privilege, but I had to try. And so what I wanted to talk to you about today, Joyce, is to try to kind of guess what legal reasoning that Office of General Counsel at DHS could have possibly put forward to justify entering our homes without a judicial warrant. And there is a bunch here, and I kind of wanted to simplify it. We've got Abel from 1960 that's quoted in recently, Kidd and Malaggerio. And then we've got other Supreme Court precedents since Able saying that you have to have a judicial warrant through three cases called Coolidge, Shadwick, and Peyton. And so it seems like, and I'm trying to sum this up into layman's terms, that what DHS might be relying on is an old non dicta, non precedent decision from 1960 in able that's been recently quoted in court cases instead of these three newer Supreme Court decisions that have said that you actually do.

B (31:41)

Need a judicial warrant.

E (31:42)

So first I want to ask, why do you need a judicial warrant instead of an administrative warrant? You know, from these three cases that.

B (31:53)

I'm sure you'll talk about, why did the court say you have to have.

E (31:56)

A judicial warrant, you have to have this signed by someone outside of the executive branch.

D (32:01)

Yeah. So newer is not always better. When you're talking about precedent, what really matters is whether you're using precedent that applies to your situation. And the granddaddy of precedent, when you talk about law enforcement entering someone's home without voluntary consent to enter, is the Fourth Amendment, which says that you can't be searched, nothing can be seized unless a neutral magistrate judge finds that there's probable cause to believe that that search will, for our purposes, reveal evidence of crimes or fruits of that crime. And so here's, I think, in a nutshell, what DOJ is doing, and I should say that Orin is really considered to be one of the preeminent academics in the country when it comes to the Fourth Amendment. And he's done, I think, a masterful job here of guessing at what DOJ's rationale is. You know, my expertise. I, too, am a wonky academic, But I spent 25 years at DOJ, and for about 10 of those years, I was in my office's Appellate Division. I ran that Appellate division for much of the time. And one of my jobs was to tell agents no, to tell them that if they wanted to do certain things, they had to play by the rules. So if this was a criminal case, which it's not, an agency told me that they intended to enter someone's home without a search warrant, I would tell them, absolutely not. Not on our watch. You do that. We're not going to prosecute your case, and we're going to have a conversation with your Leadership, that's pretty clear. This situation is a little bit different. This is some of The DHS agencies, ICE, ERO, possibly CBP2, saying we have warrants, we have orders from. Not judges. Right. Immigration judges. That's not an Article 3 judge appointed by a President confirmed by the Senate. That's an executive branch employee, somebody who's terminable at will by the President. And these judges have entered final orders of deportation. And I do not mean to denigrate those orders in any way. You know, we, we can discuss immigration another day. The process is broken. Congress has, has failed to do its job in many ways and the immigration judges are swamped. But when they issue these final orders of deportation, whether you and I might agree with the basis for those, they are enforceable orders. But, but here's the catch. And I think this is just the best way I can explain it in non wonky terms. If you have an order to deport somebody and if you see them walking down the sidewalk, you can take them and put them into deportation proceedings, but you cannot go into a house to do that unless you have a search warrant first. The argument that the DHS agencies are making is that it's sort of akin to a situation where you've got an arrest warrant and you know, somebody's in the house, you've seen somebody commit a crime and run into the house so you can go in after them to drag them out. And you know, that's true in some cases. But let's take the example of the Hmong grandfather, the frail elderly man who was dragged out into the snow in his underwear. He wasn't even the person that I said that they were looking for at that time. They indicated that they had someone who had a final order of deportation. That gentleman was an American citizen. So they did not have a good faith basis for going into the house. And I guess at bottom, that's what this comes down to. ICE is operating in a way that they do not that they no longer, I think, are entitled to any presumption of good faith in what they're doing. You know, DOJ has always operated in the courts with the presumption of regularity that says that judges presume that DOJ officials are being truthful and are acting in the way that they should. And that's out the window. And this is, I think, one of the most dramatic indications of that.

E (36:13)

Yeah. In fact, I had asked Andy McCabe, who worked in the law enforcement part of it for over 20 years, and I said, how, you know, imagine yourself Wanting to go search a place and to be able to sign your own warrant to just go in. That's what these I205 administrative warrants are. They're signed by ICE officers. Not even the immigration.

D (36:37)

Not search warrants. Right. They don't even purport to be search warrants. These are. Gives you the ability to detain someone who has a final deportation order.

E (36:47)

Right, exactly. And there's no judicial person involved in it, which is. And talk a little bit about this, why you need a neutral judicial person to sign this. So the precedent that we see in, like, Coolidge and Shadwick and Peyton, where they determined why you have to have a judge's warrant and not a warrant signed by somebody else in the executive.

D (37:10)

Branch, you know, the Supreme Court's been very clear about this, and it just makes good common sense. When you have something as fundamental as people's constitutional rights at stake, there needs to be a neutral objective. The language that they use as a magistrate, a neutral objective judge who's determining whether or not the agency part of the executive branch is entitled to do what it says it's entitled to do. You want. Want someone else making that decision. Very much like the premise of having three branches of government and checks and balances. So the notion is, in essence, that someone who's playing on your team shouldn't tell you that you can go ahead and seize the person, that you have to have somebody else in the mix. And, you know, if you ever needed an explanation for why that's the case, it's exactly what we're seeing here. Exactly what we're seeing here.

C (38:07)

Right.

E (38:08)

Just sort of like how the president shouldn't get to decide if he gets to stay in office and the check is on, sits with the Congress.

D (38:16)

I mean, can I just use you for therapy for, like, 30 seconds here and tell you how unbelievably frustrating this is? Not just for me, for every. Everybody from DOJ who I've spoken with in the last couple of weeks, you know, there are obligations that you have, if you have the enormous power that comes with being part of federal law enforcement. And one of those obvious obligations is to do everything you can to avoid violating people's civil rights. You know, we often would talk among ourselves about that's too close to the line. Your obligation as a DOJ or a DHS employee is to avoid coming any place to close to the line at which he might violate someone's civil rights to stay. Well back from that. And what we're seeing now is government employees Running straight through the line with the blessing of the DHS Secretary and the President of the United States. And it's so not normal, and yet so many people seem to just not be aware of the utter breakdown of how this is supposed to work in the last month.

E (39:26)

And is it possible? I don't even know if this is possible. I sort of get it a little bit. But when we talk about remedies for if ICE comes into your house without a judicial warrant, that's not really a crime. So if it was a crime, if somebody unlawfully came in and searched your house for a crime, you would make a motion to say that that evidence is fruit of the poison tree, and we're not going to use it or dismiss the case or et cetera, et cetera. But for remedies in these civil proceedings, immigration and civil proceedings, the Supreme Court has been chipping away at something called the Bivens remedy. And that has made it extremely difficult, even though Kavanaugh says, well, if you think your rights are violated, just sue the government. Which is why, you know, we call it a Kavanaugh, stop now. But talk a little bit about why it's so hard. Like, if you are someone who has a house and ICE has broken the door down and come in with an administrative warrant, not a judicial warrant, the remedies are now very limited to you to. To get any kind of justice for that.

D (40:29)

You know, we're so used to talking about the criminal side of the house, the criminal work that DOJ does. It's important to understand that in main justice, in every U.S. attorney's office across the country, there are lawyers who do criminal cases and lawyers who do civil cases. And so let's say I'm prosecuting you and I do a bad search of your house and I seize evidence. The first thing that you're going to do is go to the judge and ask the judge to suppress that evidence that was obtained in violation of your Fourth Amendment rights, and that judge is going to dismiss that evidence. These are not closed cases. You know, if the warrant was bad or if I did not have a search warrant and I walked into your living room and took whatever your contraband is, it's not going to be admissible at trial, with a couple of rare exceptions involving inevitable discovery and stuff like that that we don't need to discuss right now. Civil cases, as you point out, are different. These folks are being seized and put into deportation proceedings. So there's never going to be a criminal case where they could move to suppress evidence. They're already subject to final deportation orders, at least theoretically. But maybe they're not. Maybe they're US Citizens or maybe they're people with status to be in the United States. They're going to stick around and then they can start to think about trying to get a civil remedy. That means that they can go into court and file their own lawsuit and ask for damages. If you bust my door down. And we've seen that happen. Right. To go into these houses, those are civil damages that I'm owed, theoretically, at least. But as you point out, this Supreme Court is not friendly towards Bivens actions. Those are the ways, the mechanism private citizens have used to ask the government to compensate them when their rights are violated by law enforcement officers acting under color of law. And that, I mean, I just have to say the court is hostile and it's very difficult to imagine that cases of that nature would survive. And so I think the remedy that has to be considered here is whether or not there's some larger ability to go into court now that we've seen this memo and to ask for either a declaratory judgment that the agencies cannot enforce this memoir or some sort of temporary restraining order seeking a permanent injunction. You know, one of the problems, though, is that the Supreme Court has recently frowned upon nationwide injunctions. And so little by little, they have really made it very difficult for people who want to protect the Fourth Amendment.

B (43:16)

Yeah, agreed.

E (43:17)

In my personal lawsuit against the Department of Veterans affairs for my unlawful removal.

B (43:23)

Way back six years ago.

E (43:25)

We still haven't gone to trial. I wasn't allowed to bring a First Amendment case for free speech because of Bivens. That's how I personally became aware of what Bivens was and the Bivens restrictions. Before I let you go, I just wanted to ask you. We all saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears what happened on Saturday morning with the murder of Department of Veterans Affairs ICU nurse Alex Preddy. And we had FBI on the scene and then they were told to leave and DHS took over the investigation. And again, just like the murder of.

D (44:06)

Not FBI, Right. The locals, the state police in Minnesota.

B (44:11)

Yeah.

E (44:11)

And they were trying to secure the crime scene. And dhs or. Yeah, DHS was telling them to leave and DHS took over the investigation, not even letting the FBI in on it because I guess Kash Patel screwed up the first one. Screwed up the COVID up of the first one.

B (44:29)

But.

E (44:31)

You know, when we talk about supremacy Clause and sovereignty of the state to investigate its own crimes and Being blocked out of getting evidence in both of these cases, how likely is it, I mean, we did get that temporary restraining order very late last night from the courts blocking dhs, FBI from destroying or tampering with evidence. And kudos to those lawyers who worked all day on a Saturday and were able to secure that temporary restraining order within the day. But how likely is it, does that set up for maybe a warrant to try to get this evidence from Minnesota? I mean, what does that even look like to try to get. Because I asked Andy and he's like, I've never seen it. In the whole time I ever worked for the FBI, we've never iced out anything. Local investigators, what does that look like?

B (45:23)

How do we make sure that justice.

E (45:24)

Is served and that local Minnesota authorities can actually conduct a neutral investigation?

D (45:31)

So look, Andy is dead on the money. This is unprecedented. There is no precedent for the federal government freezing states and locals out of an investigation in a case that the federal government does not intend to fully investigate itself. And I think you phrased the question just right, by the way. Alison, what can we do? I mean, I think that this is something where we've already seen that public protest, public focus on this issue is the only thing that can bring this administration to heel. And I know, you know, if you're like me and you've got a couple of red state senators who you think don't listen to you, it gets old to stay in touch with them. Tomorrow is going to be the day to pick up your phone and call these guys and demand. Because we have already seen on the Sunday shows there were a few Republicans who were willing to come out and say there needs to be a full investigation. You know, we need to tell them, you'll pardon my French, this has been a long weekend, not a bullshit investigation. This needs to be a real investigation. And sometimes you'll hear folks in law enforcement talk about big important cases where the feds and the state and local guys set up a task force and work together. We've done that in Birmingham repeatedly. We did it for the 16th street church bombing when we prosecuted that as a cold case. We did that in a case that I worked on, the Birmingham abortion clinic bombing with Eric Robert Rudolph, who was convicted of that bombing, and a couple of bombings in Atlanta, including Centennial park during the Olympics. Those are big, full on efforts where you have rooms full of folks from all of the Alphabet agencies. You know, the bomb dogs are there, the tech guys are there, the state and local guys are there, prosecutors are there, and everybody's Working together on those big cases, that's one thing. It is routine for us in our day to day business as federal prosecutors to work all the time with state and local prosecutors, have a drug case, the feds take sort of the kingpins. The state prosecutors do the cases that are centralized in their area that they're better able to take care of, have a violent crime. Feds are always going to work with their state partners who are better equipped to do homicide cases. You know, we work together every day. It's our bread and butter. And the idea that you would tell folks to pack up and go home at a crime scene like that that involves one of their citizens is completely off the rails. And in and of itself, it suggests that this is not legitimate. Right. If DHS was going to do a legitimate investigation, they would have invited state folks to stick around. But the reality is that DHS does not investigate officer involved shootings. To the extent that that's done in the federal government, it's almost exclusively done by the FBI. And so here, when, when an agency that is not equipped to do this, that doesn't have a trajectory of doing this, suggests that they'll do it, it's not very difficult to smell cover up, right?

E (48:41)

Especially after they've already made their, you know, assertations that this was a domestic terrorist who brandished a gun and was going to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement or whatever Bovino said. But you're right, Bovino was raked over the coals by Bartiromo on Fox today. He was. Dana Bash, who's usually very moderate, was questioning him and, you know, kept bringing up that Orwellian concept of we saw this with our own eyes, sir.

D (49:16)

Can I just add to that, by the way? Because I've done a number of cases involving officer involved shootings. And one of the things that I know to be true, you know, you always learn from your own mistakes the best. I had a case and it was not that long ago, maybe 15 or 16 years ago, where we had some initial video and it looked to me like it was what law enforcement would call a bad shoot. The language is a little bit crass, bad shoot, one that violates the law, good shoot, one where the officer was justified. So forgive me for using the language that's used, but in this case, from early video, it looked like there was a problem. And then we got more video like a week later, a long time later, and it gave more perspective and you could actually see very clearly what the officer saw and that he was in fact acting to Protect bystanders, which was what we had been told. But from the early video, I was very skeptical. And so something that you learn to do is wait. You don't come out and make a statement two or three hours later saying this was a crazy domestic terrorist who wanted to massacre law enforcement. But that's what we heard DHS do here. You know, they have lied to us twice. And. And I'm of the school that says, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. There's no reason to take what these folks are saying at face value. They're going to investigate to bootstrap their own conclusions. But. But look, you guys, we can watch video. We can see when a gun is taken off of a gentleman who is entitled to carry that gun. There is a second amendment. No matter what DHS is telling you today, the gun is gone before he's shot. And you can see the shooter. It appears to me. And again, it's worth waiting to see the video and the enhanced video and hear from witnesses. But it looks like the shooter is the same guy who's shoving the woman who the. The victim, Mr. Preddy, is trying to assist. And it looks like the agent, after that woman is taken out of his purview, is sort of angry, and he turns around and pulls his gun. Bam, bam, bam. And that is an unjustified use of deadly force by a member of law enforcement. It's something that demands prosecution, both for justice in the one case, but also to deter future instances. And we are now at this dangerous inflection point where leadership in this administration is telling agents it's okay to shoot protesters. That's really what this is all about at this point. So keep up the protesting, keep up your activism, and call your senators and your members of Congress and your governors and let them know you're incensed about this and you're not going to let it go.

B (52:06)

Yeah, Agreed.

E (52:07)

Cameras out, right? Ken Eldoja, I say cameras out. Thank you so much for answering some of these really difficult questions for us today. We're going to keep our eyes on this. More video is going to come out. More things, more information is going to happen. We're going to keep our eye tomorrow or on Monday, I should say, on that hearing for the temporary restraining order to preserve the evidence. And maybe the next steps are to get a warrant to get that evidence, and we'll see how the DHS responds. I don't think it'll be in a way that we would like, but it's.

D (52:41)

Hard to imagine them turning the evidence over without a fight. But you know, you never know. A federal judge telling the Justice Department to do something occasionally yields benefits.

E (52:52)

Sometimes it does. Thank you so much, everybody. Please subscribe to Civil Discourse. You all know Joyce Vance. Make sure you subscribe to her substack. And if you're able to, you can subscribe to the Breakdown, my substack as well. I really appreciate your time today.

B (53:06)

Joyce Vance.

D (53:07)

Yes, thank you so much for having me. I am a huge fan of the Breakdown and you all should subscribe.

E (53:13)

Oh, thank you so much everybody. We will see you next time.

D (53:16)

See you soon.

B (53:18)

Hey everybody. Welcome back. It's time for the good news.

E (53:20)

Who likes good news?

B (53:22)

Everyone?

E (53:23)

Then good news, everyone.

C (53:38)

Good news.

B (53:39)

And if you have any good news, good trouble suggestions. Your good news can be big. It can be tiny. It can be your favorite joke. It can be misheard song lyrics. It can be something fun that happened to you way in the past that you like to share when you're talking to your friends at parties. It can be anything. It'd be a shout out to a loved one or yourself. Tell us why you're awesome. We would love to hear about why you're awesome, because we know you're awesome. Send that to us. You can send us your thesis and dissertation titles and we'll try to pronounce them as best we can. Because y' all are so smart. You can send us shout outs to government programs. And all you got to do to get your submission read on the air, by the way, is pay your pod pet tax, which these days means attach a photo of anything that you think will make us smile or laugh. It can be a meme. It can be family photos, awkward family photos, your baby pictures. Send those to us. It can be a random animal off the Internet. You can send a photo of your pet, and maybe we can guess what the breeds are in your shelter pup. We're bad at it, but we like to try you send an adoptable pet in your area. Send us a photo of what you're making or creating. Maybe you're raising chickens. Maybe you got goats. You can find random goats on the Internet. That works too. Goats and pajamas, yoga, goat yoga. Whatever it is, send it to us daily beanspod.com click on Contact. First up is your good trouble. And your good trouble help get SJ reinstated at Yosemite. We're also making members of the public ready to amplify or are asked by emailing Acting Director Jessica Bowen at NPS National Park Service. NPSDirectorps.gov and Yosemite Superintendent at Raymond McPaddenps.gov, we'll have those email addresses in the show notes to reinstate Dr. S.J. jocelyn. They may also fill out the Contact Us form at Yosemite's page@nps.gov so here's a script that you can send hello, Acting NPS Director Jessica Bowron. I saw that several NPS unions have signed and released an open letter directed to you in support of Dr. S.J. joslin and their reinstatement to Yosemite National Park. I strongly agree with the 4,200 NPS employees, or an estimated 33% of the total NPS workforce that these signatures represent. Please review their letter and reinstate SJ to their rightful place at the National Park Service. This is a great good trouble. Thank you so much whoever sent this in.

C (56:04)

Absolutely. And just a reminder for people that don't know what SJ did. SJ was the park ranger that put up that massive trans flag in Yosemite with Patty Gonia and a few other people. But because SJ worked for the National Park Service, they got fired, so we're trying to get them reinstated. So this is some good, good trouble to do for sure. Thank you so much, Allison. And this is from Anonymous. This is pronouns not given but a pronunciation correction. Dear Laguma Lad. Just giving you that local inside edge so you can continue to sound smarter than the rest of the national media. Nicollet Avenue, where Alex was executed, rhymes with Chicklet. Oh, it's Nicolette. Nicollet Avenue. Thank you very much. Everyone's favorite Easy. A college course. Kind of like Prescott, Arizona. Rhymes with Prescott.

B (56:55)

Yep, Prescott. Why, I spent many, many years teaching there. Thank you for that pronunciation correction, Nicolet. All right, next up for Marianne, I follow several progressive quilters and this popped up in my Instagram feed. Becky Halvorson, AKA Quilt by Night, shared an image of an adapted version of the Star Wars Rebel alliance logo by feral user on Reddit. The logo features the Minnesota state bird, the loon. Becky has taken the logo another step further, creating a free French paper piecing pattern for quilters to use. We will have the link in the show notes. Would be a shame if this pattern happened to make its way to the many jean jacket backs and T shirts perfect for use on these crafting snow days that are plaguing or gifting everyone caught in the snowstorm. So we'll have that link to that pattern. Look at it. It's awesome.

C (57:50)

That is beautiful.

B (57:51)

It's the Rebel alliance with the with the loon inside.

C (57:54)

Yeah. That's awesome.

B (57:56)

Thanks for that.

C (57:56)

Look at this little pot. Pet tariff. Oh, it's our granddaughter Watson. Our daughter's adorable. Grad school rescue. Very best wing lady. We had her DNA done. We can confirm if your best guesses are correct. I would say there's some German shepherd in there.

B (58:13)

Okay. Look in maybe golden retriever box. Look at the redaction.

E (58:17)

There's.

C (58:18)

I know it's not.

E (58:19)

There's every dive breeds.

B (58:20)

Yeah.

C (58:21)

German shepherd, golden retriever.

B (58:23)

Chow, chow. For sure.

C (58:26)

Little Chihuahua watched.

B (58:28)

Yep. Pity Staffy, right? That's everywhere. Maybe a cocker. Let's see. Let's see what we got here. Oh, this is why the redaction box is so long. There's a whole explanation. We call her a golden basset doodle, which are the top three breeds, but she also includes some Pomeranian, which was a complete mystery to us until Gigi was kind enough to to school us on the watching portion of mixed breeds. Now we have our explanation. So a golden retriever basset hound poodle with a little Pomeranian watching. Thank you so much for that, Marianne.

C (59:05)

All right, we got Nancy K. No pronouns given. Hi, beanies. You want to know what makes me happy? Cookies. Not necessarily eating them. Yum. But actually baking them. It's so soothing and relaxing. For your snacking pleasure, we have macaroons, chocolate caramel delights, shortbread upper right, and in the pan, toffee squares. My God, someone is actually paying me for these. It's awesome to have a labor of love. Also, I had a mousey infestation in the kitchen, but the kittens will take care of that.

B (59:36)

I have a thousand of these in my house. These little mice. Shaky mice.

C (59:42)

So funny.

B (59:43)

I have a thousand of them. However, one of my cats has brought me real dead mice to put on. Did I tell you this the other day?

C (59:52)

No.

B (59:53)

To put on the foot of my bed as a gift. These are indoor cats, Dana.

C (59:57)

Oh, my God.

B (59:58)

Yeah, so.

C (59:59)

Well, at least they. I mean, I guess they're catching the mice, so that's good. But you don't need them in your bed.

B (60:04)

Yeah, and I figured out who was doing it. It's Ghost who's the derpiest of them all. And it's always who you least expect to be the killer. But, yeah, he's the one. All right, next up from anonymous, pronouns, she and her. Hi, AG and dg. I guess my good news is that I'm asking for help. These last few weeks have been soul shattering to me, and I feel the need to do something and I don't know what to do. I feel helpless and I want to be helpful. I'm hopeful that you in this community can organize a national day of protest. Not on a Saturday or Sunday, but a weekday. Shut it all down. Don't go to work, don't make any purchases. I don't know. Know I'm trying not to lose faith in humanity. But thanks for all you do and thank you for the space to air this. Peace to all. Please enjoy a picture of rainbow rainy Peanut daddy named by my two year old granddaughter.

C (60:53)

Oh my goodness.

B (60:55)

Have you seen a cat that sits like this? No, I have not. Anonymous, but not either.

C (61:01)

Oh my God.

B (61:01)

We had that. We had that story in the, in the main section about the. Above the fold New York Times front page story about the general strike in, in Minnesota. So I think you're onto something here. Maybe there's a local group, a Trouble Nation Red Wine and blue indivisible 50:51, your local Democratic club that might be willing to help organize one of these where you are.

C (61:26)

All right, this is from Head Bang pronoun she they. Hello my fairy bean mothers. I am writing to you from Madison, Wisconsin on the day that Alex Preddy was brutally gunned down feet from witnesses in broad daylight. I'm so afraid for Minneapolis. I am dreading the day that they come for us because they will. Today also happened to be bout day for Madison Roller Derby. Did you know that Madison was the third city in the nation to form a flat track roller derby league after Austin in New York? We're 20 plus years strong. Roller derby is seriously the best sport of all time. I'm biased because I used to play, but. But it is. I have seen this sport transform countless souls, including my own. And the love of this community is palpable every time we come together. I asked a friend who came along how his family in Minneapolis is doing and learned that his sister, who lives blocks from where both murders took place, is out in front of her house with hot drinks and food for protesters. As we chatted, we watched the skaters rolling out and realized nearly all of them had foregone their usual jerseys in favor of DIY T shirts in their team colors with some flavor of abolish ice and their numbers. Many had scrawled ice out across the backs of their mighty thighs in Sharpie. And one skater shirt said proud daughter of an immigrant. And while everything feels so insanely fucked up right now, being at that doubleheader tonight and feeling the energy emanating from a packed house of my fellow weirdos made a feel sense of peace because as I had a flash of an intrusive thought of ice bursting through the doors that second, I realized damn, I would love to see those try and with this family. My pod pet tariff is actually what inspired me to write this was posted by the Henry Villas Zoo It's a red panda sticking her tongue little tongue right out. Oh that little blip is adorable. What a great submission.

B (63:25)

Thank you. Headbang. Is that your. Is that your derby name?

C (63:29)

I bet it is.

B (63:30)

I love it. Mine was Shimotoma Shimatoma. Yeah, that's amazing. What a cool family story. That chosen family there. Yeah, I would have loved to have been there. Thank you all so much for your good news. We're in dire need of it. We're in dire need of your good news. Please send it to us daily beanspod.com and click on contact. Thank you all so much. Do you have any final thoughts before we get out of here, my friend?

C (63:54)

No final thoughts for today.

B (63:55)

All right, we'll be back tomorrow. Until then, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other, take care of the planet, take care of your mental health, and take care of your family. I've been AG and I've been DG and them's the Beans. The Daily Beans is written and executive produced by Allison Gill with additional research and reporting by Dana Goldberg. Sound design and editing is by Desiree McFarlane with art and web design by Joelle Reader with Moxie Design Studios. Music for the Daily Beans is written and performed by they Might Be Giants and the show is a proud member of the MSW Media Network, a collection of creator owned podcasts dedicated to news, politics and justice. For more information Please visit msw media.com msw media.