← The Daily Beans
The Daily Beans
Refried Beans | Cooperative Freedom (feat. Timothy Snyder) 10.23.2024
01:07:31
October 23rd, 2024 John Kelly confirms to the Atlantic that Trump called military and veterans suckers and losers; the Georgia Supreme Court unanimously upholds the block of the State Election Board’s last minute rule changes; US officials confirm the smear of Tim Walz was Russian propaganda; Rudy has been ordered to hand his property over to Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss; judges have rejected the RNC lawsuits challenging some overseas ballots in Michigan and North Carolina; the former Abercrombie & Fitch CEO has been charged with sex trafficking over a dozen victims; a Philadelphia man has been charged for making gruesome threats against a person recruiting poll watchers; the Army has been ordered to release the report of the Trump incident at Arlington National Cemetery; and Allison and Dana deliver your Good News.
Loading summary
Transcript95 lines
- [00:00]
Martin Sheen
It's Sunday morning in America and that wonderfully relaxed feeling of a long, lazy day lingers in the air. If you want to make the moment last, may I suggest the perfect solution, The Martin Sheen Podcast. Join me, your host, Martin Sheen, for beautifully crafted 20 minute programs filled with never before heard stories of my life, along with personal reflections and poetry that inspires. And season one begins Sunday, October 26th. The Martin Sheen Podcast is the perfect Sunday refresh. A chance to take a deep breath, relax and know that the stress of Monday may be just around the corner, but not here, not now. So make this your weekly moment of calm as we explore faith, hope, love and what it means to be human. And know this, this journey is ever unfolding as I invite you to see what's next with me, Martin Sheen.
- [00:59]
Allison Gill
And thank you, MSW Media. Hey everybody, it's Ag. And welcome to Refried Beans where we play an episode of the Daily Beans podcast from the same week either one, two or three years ago so we can see how far we've come. So please enjoy this episode from days gone by and note the date in the intro. Refried beans. I like refried beans. That's why I want to try fried beans. Because maybe they're just as good and we're wasting time.
- [01:31]
Dana Goldberg
News we're swearing.
- [01:36]
Allison Gill
Jelly beans.
- [01:37]
Dana Goldberg
Jelly beans.
- [01:40]
Allison Gill
Jelly beans.
- [01:41]
Dana Goldberg
Jelly beans.
- [01:47]
Allison Gill
Hello and welcome to the Daily beans for Wednesday, October 23, 2024. Today, John Kelly confirms to the Atlantic that Trump called military and veterans suckers and losers. The Georgia Supreme Court unanimously upholds the block of the state election board's last minute rule changes. U.S. officials confirm the smear of Tim Walls was Russian propaganda. Rudy has been ordered to hand his property over to Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss. Judges have rejected the RNC lawsuits challenging some overseas ballots in Michigan and North Carolina. The former Abercrombie and Fitch CEO has been charged with sex trafficking over a dozen victims. A Philadelphia man has been charged for making gruesome threats against a person recruiting poll watchers. And the army has been order to release its report of the Trump incident at Arlington National Cemetery. I'm Allison Gill.
- [02:35]
Dana Goldberg
And I'm Dana Goldberg.
- [02:40]
Allison Gill
Hey, happy Wednesday. Good to have you back my friend.
- [02:42]
Dana Goldberg
Thank you so much. Thanks for covering me. I was working in D.C. and it's kind of cool. We've been raising money for the human Rights campaign for specifically they made three 30 second commercials and they're raising money to have those air in different markets that we need to combat these like anti trans commercials and things like that. And just there's 75 million equality voters. So those are people that actually prioritize the LGBTQ issues when they vote, and we're just trying to reach them and get them out to the polls. So that's what I was doing.
- [03:13]
Allison Gill
Truly amazing. Thank you for your work. It never ceases to amaze me, everything that you put into these elections and, you know, at the same time supporting the LGBTQ plus community. So thank you so much for that.
- [03:27]
Dana Goldberg
Well, I can say the same thing about you and everything you've done for survivors, especially over the last, you know, year, making sure that this legislation was taken care of so that people in the military could get access to abortion, abortions when they need them, and healthcare. So it's a reflection, my friend. The listeners know it, I know it. So we're a good team. And it's. It's. I'm just, I don't know, proud of you. Proud of you as well.
- [03:49]
Allison Gill
Proud of you. High five. We're gonna all gas, no breaks for the next two weeks. I mean, let's fucking go. Oh, it's. It's so far away and yet so close. And. And the news today, I mean, you're back on, like, the busiest day of the news cycle. We have such a long show today because, first of all, we have an interview with New York Times bestselling author of On Tyranny, Timothy Snyder. We're going to talk about his new book on freedom. And I have a whole C block for you. I'm going to cover the new Bombshell article in the Atlantic. Plus, that's the one where John Kelly confirms that Trump called war dead suckers and losers. He said about Vanessa Guillen. That was the army woman who was murdered. You know, Trump offered to pay for her funeral. When the funeral bill came, he said something to the effect of the no way. It cost 60,000 bucks to bury a fucking Mexican. That's what he said.
- [04:48]
Dana Goldberg
My God.
- [04:49]
Allison Gill
And then. And then refused to give over a penny of that money.
- [04:53]
Dana Goldberg
Literally made my stomach turn.
- [04:55]
Allison Gill
And then he talked about Hitler's generals. He wished his generals were more like Hitler's. And it's just like Bombshell reporting. I want to go over all of it in the C block. And, you know, of course we're going to have the good news and we're going to have the hot notes. But first, we have some quick hits. And to make a long story short, longest show in history, my friends, we have one of everything for you. The only thing we're missing is a fantasy indictment league. So let's Start with this. Rudy Giuliani has been ordered to move most of his property into a receivership for the election workers he defamed Ruby Freeman and Shea Moss for immediate sale. Now, there are two things, his Florida condo and his Yankees championship rings that are still being litigated. They're being worked out in other cases, but those will be worked out soon. But he does have to hand over a lot of his stuff. He has to have his watches, his Lauren Bacall Mercedes Benz, his New York apartment has to go into receivership. And Freeman and Moss can go after Donald trump for the 2 million he claims Donald Trump owes him. Or that for sorry, for the 2 million Rudy claims Donald Trump owes him $2 million. And the judge is letting Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss go after Trump directly for that $2 million. So we'll keep you posted and up to date on the cleanup on aisle 45 podcast. And there's a new episode out today, so check it out.
- [06:13]
Dana Goldberg
Thanks, Ag. This one's from npr. Russia was behind salacious false claims against Democratic vice presidential nominee Tim Walls that circulated widely on social media last week, according to U.S. intelligence officials. Last week, posts on X, formerly known as we know Twitter, accused Walls of wrongdoing when he was a high school teacher and a football coach. The intelligence official said the video showed, quote, several indicators of manipulation consistent with Russian influence operations. This is awful that they're able to literally ruin people's reputations. For those who believe it, it's just, it's awful.
- [06:50]
Allison Gill
Yep. And it's Russian propaganda spread by right wing media. Another shocker. I'm maybe if we did have a fantasy indictment league today, I would be possibly putting, I don't know, Tim Pool on there. The two owners of Tenant Media, Tim Pool tweeted out yesterday, oh, it might be my last podcast. I don't know. And I'm like, tim, did you lie to the FBI? I told you not to do that. They have all of your communications, even from encrypted apps. He probably doesn't listen to me. But anyway, in more election news, in a unanimous ruling, the very conservative Georgia Supreme Court will not let the state election board enforce a slate of controversial new election rules that were passed by allies of Donald Trump. That was they ruled Tuesday against Republicans who asked for them to be revived as early voting got underway in the critical battleground state. The order is a major victory for Democrats and others who have filed a slew of lawsuits against these rules, arguing the board exceeded its authority when it passed them. Pete and I go over the lower court's order that the, that the Supreme Court just upheld. We go over all seven rules, what the judge said, it's really damning. And we do that on today's episode of clean up on a 45. So. All right, everybody, more news to get to. Let's hit the hot notes. Hot notes. All right. First up from the Military Times, a federal judge has ordered army officials to release their records by the end of this week regarding President Donald Trump's controversial visit to Arlington National Cemetery this past summer. Senior Judge Paul Friedman of the U.S. district Court of the District of Columbia. That's a Clinton appointee, on Tuesday granted the release request as part of a lawsuit filed by American Oversight, a nonpartisan nonprofit group dedicated to getting the government to release records. The group sued for the records to be made public following a Freedom of Information act request. Quote. With the election just two weeks away, the American people have a clear and compelling interest in knowing how the government responded to an alleged incident involving a major presidential candidate who has a history of politicizing the military. That's Chioma Chukwu, the group's interim executive director, in a statement following the order. The legal fight stems from Trump's visit to the storied military cemetery Aug. 26. A former commander in chief and Republican nominee visited the site as part of an event commemorating the anniversary of the death of 13 U.S. service members in a terrorist bombing at the Hamid Karzai International Airport in 2021 during the exit from Afghanistan. At the invitation of some of those survivors, family members, Trump took part in a wreath laying ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, then visited section 60 of the cemetery where many troops killed in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are buried. Shots of Trump smiling and giving a thumbs up sign alongside service members tombstones were later used in campaign spots. In addition, army officials said an employee who attempted to stop the campaign workers from filming in the area, which is against the law, was abruptly pushed aside by Trump campaign staffers. That individual has not been identified, opted not to press charges. Army officials decried the incident since Trump was warned that federal laws, army regulations and DoD policies clearly prohibit political activities on cemetery grounds. But they also said they will not pursue any further reprimands or punishments and did not disclose any further details of the incident. Several Democratic lawmakers have called for a full release of the Army's report on the visit. Trump has denied any wrongdoing. As we know, his staff has released several statements. That's all bullshit. And then statements from families of fallen troops involved in the visit, who praised Trump for his kindness and his attention to their struggles. Trump campaign officials also initially promised to release video proving that they followed all the protocol, but have thus far shockingly declined to provide any such proof the unreleased army records could provide. And I'm sure they will provide more insight into the level of confrontation between Trump staffers and cemetery staff on that day, but also whether the former president helped calm or inflame this situation. So we should know by the end of the week.
- [10:57]
Dana Goldberg
Now this has been a long time coming. This one's from ABC and I just want to give a content Warning for Sexual Assault and Trafficking Former Abercrombie and Fitch CEO Mike Jeffries and two others. They were arrested Tuesday as part of a criminal investigation into the alleged sex trafficking of more than a dozen victims. This is according to the FBI and federal prosecutors. Jeffries, his partner Matt Smith and a third man, Jim Jacobson, they are accused of operating an international sex trafficking and prostitution business that recru young men for parties in the US and abroad. That's according to 16 count indictment. The former retail executive an Smith relied on their vast financial resources, Jeffrey's power as the CEO of Abercrombie and numerous people including Jacobson and a network of employees, contractors and security professionals to run a business, quote, that was dedicated to fulfilling their sexual desires and ensuring that their international sex trafficking and prostitution business was kept secret. This is all in the indictment. Federal prosecutors said the trio allegedly paid dozens of men to travel around the world to engage in sex acts over at least a seven year period starting in the late 2008. The indictment mentions 15 alleged victims identified as John Does 1 through 15. Jeffries allegedly recruited, hired and paid a slate of household staff to quote, facilitate and supervise the sex events. Prosecutors in FBI believe that there are many more victims and ask them to come forward. Jacobson allegedly traveled throughout the United States and internationally to recruit and interview men for the so called sex events. That's according to prosecutors. During quote tryouts of potential candidates, Jacobson required that the candidates first engage in sex acts with him. These are three horrible, horrible men and anyone else who knew about it. The indictment alleged that many of the men were coerced, led to believe that attending the events would yield modeling opportunities with Abercrombie or otherwise benefit their careers or in the alternative that not complying with requests for certain acts during the sex events could harm their careers. The defendants are charged with sex trafficking and interstate prostitution. Jeffries was released on a $10 million bond following a brief initial appearance Tuesday afternoon before A federal magistrate in Florida, where he was arrested. Smith, who's a UK citizen, waived pretrial intervention and will be sent to New York from Florida and held pending arraignment. Jacobson was arrested in Minnesota and was released on a $500,000 bond after arraignment in federal court in St. Paul. U.S. attorney Brian Peace said, quote, powerful individuals have far too long trafficked and abused for their own sexual pleasure. Young people with few resources and a dream, a dream of making a successful career in fashion or entertainment. I mean, the story's horrifying. We have seen this company for years have these literally shirtless models outside the store, and it really just puts everything into perspective. I'm so sorry to all the victims and the people that were hurt by these three monsters. I won't even call them men. And I hope justice gets served.
- [14:10]
Allison Gill
Yeah. And. And, you know, I've long known that this was going on. I think a lot of people have long known that this was going on. I mean, first, just for so long, it's just such a blight, you know, on the fashion industry and the modeling community and the LGBTQ community, and it's treacherous and awful. And, you know, like I said, we've known this has been so long coming.
- [14:42]
Dana Goldberg
Yeah. And it's just another point that I think people need to remember, and only because, I don't know, I'm not making the connection. So please understand this. But, you know, with the Menendez trial and the boys having their retrial and possibly knowing their faith by the end of the week, it just sheds more light that the sex trafficking and the abuse just doesn't happen to girls. It happens to boys as well. There's a lot of victims out there that need to be believed when they come forward, 100%.
- [15:09]
Allison Gill
And even in these new Sean Combs lawsuits and in the indictment itself, many were boys and men.
- [15:16]
Timothy Snyder
Yeah.
- [15:17]
Allison Gill
All right, thank you for reporting that. I know it wasn't easy. Next up from Hannah Rabinowitz at cnn. A Philadelphia man is facing federal charges for allegedly threatening to skin a state party representative who was recruiting poll watchers. That's according to an indictment unsealed Monday. Prosecutors say that 62 year old John Pollard sent several text messages to the representative, who is not named in the court documents, and the party also isn't identified. The charges, which came over just two weeks before the 2024 presidential election, are part of an effort by the DOJ to combat threats and violence against election workers. According to court documents, Pollard sent the threatening messages in September response to a social media post from the representative that asked for volunteers to help observe the polls on Election Day, quote, I'm interested in being a poll watcher was the first message that he sent. And when the representative did not immediately respond, Pollard allegedly wrote again, saying, I will kill you if you don't answer me. And then he said, your days are numbered. And then his third message was going to fucking find you and skin you alive and use your skin for fucking toilet paper, unquote. Now Pollard is charged with transmitting interstate threats, which carries a five year maximum prison sentence. Pollard does not yet have an attorney listed in the court document. So we'll follow this case for you.
- [16:40]
Dana Goldberg
Donald Trump has caused so much damage in all of his sycophants to the people of this country. I just. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Okay, this last story, I promise we're going to give you some good news by the end of this episode. It's just been a heavy day. This one from Tierney Snead at cnn. Judges in Michigan, North Carolina rejected lawsuits brought by the Republican National Committee and others that challenged overseas ballots cast by voters abroad who never resided in the states. The rulings in two separate cases on Monday are setbacks in efforts by Republicans to target the overseas vote, which has long been seen as sacrosanct because of its tie to the military. But now it could be a crucial block for Democrats. As a pool of American citizens that live overseas, it's starting to eclipse military voters serving outside the country. Former President Donald Trump and his GOP allies have heralded the cases as essential to securing the integrity of the 2024 election. But their arguments, they all fell flat in court. And I know there's a lot of people listening to this that are American citizens that live overseas. And so this is affecting them. Now, the Michigan judge called the lawsuit, quote, an attempt to disenfranchise voters. And the North Carolina judge said Republicans, quote, presented no substantial evidence of the fraud they claimed that they were trying to prevent. The RNC sued in Michigan and North Carolina to block state policies that allow for citizens abroad to cast ballots in those states if their parents or in Michigan, their spouse resided in those states before leaving the country, even if the voters themselves never lived there. Now, Judge Sima Patel, Michigan's Court of Claims, said in her ruling that Republicans were too late in filing their lawsuit, calling it, quote, 11th hour attempt to disenfranchise spouses and children of former Michigan residents who now live a abroad. In North Carolina, Wake County Superior Court Judge John W. Smith, he denied the RNC's request for an emergency court order that would require election officials to set aside ballots from overseas voters who hadn't themselves lived in the state. Smith said that the RNC was challenging voting policies that were passed with bipartisan support by the North Carolina Legislature and that the Republicans, quote, have presented no substantial evidence of any instance where the harm that plaintiffs seek to prevent has ever fraudulently occurred. CNN has reached out to the RNC and election officials in Michigan and North Carolina for comment. DNC spokesperson Alex Floyd said in a statement that the GOP backed litigation, quote was nothing more than a transparent ploy to threaten the voting rights of military families and try so chaos in this election for cynical political ends and Vice President Kamala Harris campaign used the rulings to accuse Republicans of pulling out all the stops to block your vote. That was from a statement Tuesday morning. Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, who's fucking awesome who oversees the state's elections and was sued by the rnc, hailed Patel's court ruling as quote, a win for voters and democracy today in Michigan. In a social media post, Benson, who is a second term Democrat, touted the judge's conclusion that the GOP was trying to disenfranchise some voters in Michigan and North Carolina. The policy of accepting ballots from those overseas voters has been on the books for several years, but starting in 2016, civilian voters abroad began outnumbering the military vote overseas, which itself is not as conservative as it once was. Democrats announced earlier this cycle a six figure investment into turning out eligible Democrats abroad, particularly those who can vote in battleground states. Michigan Republicans cited the reports of that turnout effort in their court filings and their challenge there. Still, Patel noted that her ruling that the RNC's Michigan lawsuit was filed just a few weeks before Election Day and well after the federal deadline for states to transmit ballots to overseas voters. Patel was also not convinced by Republicans arguments that voter residency requirements in Michigan Constitution preclude the state law that allows overseas citizens who have never lived in Michigan to vote there if they had some significant family tie to the state. The judge embraced the arguments put forward by election officials defending the policy who asserted that Michigan's constitution only gave the legislature the power to expand the pool of eligible voters. Michigan officials said last week that they have received about 16,000 requests for overseas ballots. So hopefully those people will get them. They will get them back in time. We'll get some good, good votes in Michigan.
- [21:21]
Allison Gill
Yes, good job. Well done. I'm glad we're defending that and I'm glad the courts are seeing that, you know, even if we might, you know, if you want to try to sue after the election, if you want to try to change the rules after the election, just not right now. Sorry. And too bad. So I'm glad that that little bit of a guardrail to democracy is holding. All right, we're going to be right back with my interview with Timothy Schneider and his new New York Times best selling book called On Freedom. You don't want to miss it. And then after that, I'm going to go over the Atlantic article which might shed some light on why that military vote might not be as conservative as it once was. Dana. And we'll talk about all of that after this break. Stick around Sound. We'll be right back after these messages.
- [22:05]
Dana Goldberg
We'll be right back.
- [22:08]
Allison Gill
Hey, everybody. Welcome back. It's an honor to be joined today by New York Times bestselling author and Richard C. Levin, professor of history and global affairs at Yale. He has a new book out now. It's already a New York Times bestseller. It's called On Freedom. Please welcome Timothy Snyder.
- [22:24]
Timothy Snyder
Glad to be with you.
- [22:25]
Allison Gill
It's such an honor to meet you. Everybody who listens to my show knows I have been quoting you for years now because of the important work that you put out. And I know I always talk about On Tyranny. Today we're gonna focus on freedom. And this is truly an incredible book. And I first of all wanted to ask sort of what prompted this. I know in the beginning in the preface, you're in Ukraine as you wrote the preface. And I was wondering what sort of the impetus to write On Freedom was.
- [22:57]
Timothy Snyder
All sorts of empathy, if that's the plural. I don't know. I mean, as an American, freedom has always been the most important idea for me. But at a certain point, I realized I wasn't good enough at defining what it meant. That's the deep part. And then there's a kind of middle range part, which is that, as you say kindly, I wrote this little pamphlet called On Freedom, but sorry about called On Tyranny. But On Tyranny is about playing defense. And you can only play defense for so long without asking yourself, what exactly are we defending? What is the thing behind the fortress walls? And isn't that thing behind the fortress walls, shouldn't it be growing out? Shouldn't it be coming its own thing? And then the third thing which precipitated the way it ended up turning out was listening to other people. I spent about five years by myself trying to write this out as a Series of ordered arguments with limited success. And then I got sick. And that helped me because that. That forced me to think a little bit more profoundly. And then I ended up taking the book to Ukraine a few times, and I taught the book in a maximum security prison, which also helped me to break out of myself and to see things from other people's points of view. But the real answer, though, Allison, is this is the book that I had to write. The question of what freedom is. Once I got hold of it, I thought, okay, if we can get this right, we can actually fix a whole lot of other things in the country. So once I got my teeth into it, I wanted to just stay on it until I thought I had solved the problem.
- [24:22]
Dana Goldberg
Yeah.
- [24:22]
Allison Gill
And I know we talk a lot about on this program, especially reclaiming the idea of freedom from certain others, from certain demagogues, for example, but this is, you know, to have to understand or to go on a journey of understanding what freedom is. We really, like you said, we have to define it before we can even begin to claim it. So talk a little bit about one of the concepts in the book that I find super fascinating. We'll talk about the 5, 5 forms of freedom in a second. But I want to talk about this idea that people kind of can confuse freedom as freedom from something versus freedom for something, being more proactive than reactive. Can you talk a little bit about that?
- [25:02]
Timothy Snyder
Yeah. Thank you for that. Thank you for teeing that up. Because that's. That's the. That's the great American mistake. So we've got the right word, but we've got the wrong concept. We think that freedom is just freedom from. And of course, that's elegant and that's simple and in some sense, it's very flattering. It's self flattering. Because if freedom is just freedom from, that means that the problem is always the wall, the barbed wire, the government, the oppressor. The problem is always somebody else. And you imagine that if you overcome the oppression, cut the barbed wire, knock down the wall, shrink or overthrow the government, then you'll be free. And that's wrong. That's wrong. Freedom from is only important because of freedom. To the wall only matters because of the person on the other side. The barbed wire only matters because of the person on the other side. And even when the wall is down and. Or the barbed wire is cut, I mean this, not metaphorically. I mean it quite literally. I've written about situations. I've seen barbed wire. I've seen walls. I've seen them come Down. The people are not necessarily free. The removal of oppression is necessary, but it's not sufficient. When the oppression is gone, that's when you have to ask yourself, what do I value? What do I care about? How do I bring those things into the world? And those are the real questions of freedom. So freedom has to be positive. It has to be about who you are, what you care about, what you want to become. And freedom has to be positive politically as well. It has to be about the things that we do together so that American children can grow up and have a chance to be free.
- [26:34]
Allison Gill
Yeah, and like, one of the lines that really hit me in early on, like, I mean, that this is full. This book is full of these. But, you know, you say freedom is not just an absence of evil, but a presence of. Of good. And that really struck me, like. Yeah, okay. When we talk about Ukraine specifically, for example, we. We would, as Americans tend to think of, well, freedom from the Russians attacking us. But no, that's just a baseline. Once they stop, once that's gone, then you can realize the freedoms of. Of the people. Right. Because countries aren't free. People are. Are free. And I think that that's kind of the lesson I was picking up as I got into this. But now let's talk about the five forms of freedom and how you wove this into your life. Like. Like, it's a metaphor for the stages of life, which I thought was truly fascinating. Can you talk a little bit about how you came to that conclusion?
- [27:25]
Timothy Snyder
Yeah, I mean, it's. Freedom is a tough idea. You can't. It's not the sort of thing where you can just be right. In fact, like, a lot of what's suspicious about American discussions of freedom is that people are so sure they're right about it. And it's not the kind of thing where you can be right. It's the kind of thing you have to circle around because it has to do with life. It has. Like, freedom is a state of being in which you can affirm and realize values. It's not like. It's not a proposition. Exactly. And so you have. The way you talk about has to fit life. So I have this definition of positive freedom at the top of the book, and I have prescriptions for government at the end of the book. And the basic idea is that positive freedom defines the right kind of government. There's no fundamental tension between freedom and government. We've got that all wrong.
- [28:07]
Allison Gill
Wrong.
- [28:07]
Timothy Snyder
But in between, I try to release the tension by talking about life and social situations. And predicaments and how you get through a life to be free. And so the five forms of freedom are both stages in an argument, but also stages in a life. So the first one is sovereignty, where I'm not interested in the sovereignty of the state because I don't think a state has a right to be sovereign unless it's creating conditions in which people can grow up to be free. I try to relocate the idea of sovereignty in the person and ask, what do we do from the moment of birth? Because birth is a crucial part, right? Like normally we talk about freedom. We've already conceptualized the ideal freedom fighter on a tank or whatever, but it's usually like a middle aged male with a whole lot of invisible resources behind him. And we never ask how did that person become that free person, right? Like all those questions, where were all the other people? Where are the resources? What was the infrastructure? What were the moral values that allowed that person to be free?
- [29:01]
Allison Gill
Free.
- [29:01]
Timothy Snyder
And so all, like all the contractarian thinking, all the Rawlsian stuff, all the thinking about freedom, which doesn't begin with a baby from my point of view, is wrong. You have to ask what are the conditions in which children can grow up to be free? Because we know a whole lot about child development now, like there's a lot of science in this book, including child development, early childhood development. And we know that you have to create, you know, you have to have attention, you have to have play, you have to learn how to name and control your emotions and so on. And that's only possible with cooperation with other people. But other people only have the time for the baby if there's a government, if there's parental leave, if there are vacations, if there's kindergarten, if there's daycare, etc, right? And so to form an individual, you have to have collective work. And that's. That starts from the very beginning. So that's sovereignty. I've got four more forums, so I feel like I should stop and let you ask another question.
- [29:50]
Allison Gill
Well, I just, what I thought was the most fascinating was how it went through kind of the thread went through the stages of life. Sovereignty as being born in childhood and then unpredictability as being a young person, mobility as getting out and doing the thing. Factuality and solidarity are more mature concepts of freedom. But the way that you illustrated it through this metaphor, whether it's metaphorical or actual, through someone's life, I thought was just absolutely like brilliantly done. And it really helped me as the reader to understand these kind of really heady, weighty concepts of what freedom is. And so I thought when you grounded them in a life, that really brought it down to where. Where I could. Where I could sit in it and sit with it. Does that make sense?
- [30:45]
Timothy Snyder
Yeah, it does. I mean, that was less a question than a kindness. But I appreciate it because it has to be about life. Life. I mean, this is the serious point. It has to be about life. And I'm aware that I've lived one kind of life, right. And that women live different kinds of lives and that African Americans live different kinds of lives and so on. And I try to. I try to work that in as best I can, but it has to be about a life, and it has to be about a life of learning and also about a life where mistakes are made and where you. And where you move on. And so there's some memoiristic aspects to this book, but they're generally places where I got something wrong wrong, or where I only figured something out later. Because freedom can't be about always. We pretend freedom is about always knowing everything in advance. And once you. And that's like a very typical American posture. I already know everything. I know who the enemy is. I'm gonna. I'm gonna jump on my tank. Whereas, in fact, freedom is about caring about things, it's about having friends, it's about having institutions and structures. It's about everyday sorts of things. Admitting that you love things, admitting you care about things, working towards things, not being a conformist, taking risks, feeling discomfort. That's what freedom is all about. And so it has to be described in terms of a life. But because we live forward in time from being a baby through old age, how do you become that kind of person? Has to correspond to the different stages of life. And so that's why I did it that way. And I'm happy you appreciate it.
- [32:06]
Allison Gill
Yeah, no, I really do. Here's a question for you. Talk to me a little bit about the concept of freedom as a zero sum game, because you. That is something that you bring up in. In the book.
- [32:17]
Timothy Snyder
Yeah, that's freedom. So it's going to sound kind of campy, what I say at the beginning, and then I hope by the end it will sound more solid. But freedom. Freedom for me has to be freedom for you, or it's. Or it's not freedom. And. And that's true at at least three different levels. One is the moral, that just logically, morally, you have to have the same rights that I do, or they're not rights, but. And Then it's also true politically that if I think freedom is for me or people like me, right? If I think it's for white people or if I think it's for males or something, then what ends up happening is that not just do other groups get oppressed, but my warped idea of freedom leaves me less free. It leaves me less free than I would have been otherwise. And so everybody's worse off. Some people are worse off than others, but everybody's worse off than they could be. But the deeper part of this is that in order to be free, you have to know who you are. And that sounds easy, but it's really, really not. And our American idea of negative freedom assumes that it's me against the world or me against the government. And so the assumption is, I know who I am, but you. But in that story of me against the world or me against the government or whatever it is, I'm actually just a peon in somebody else's story. I don't really know who I am. The only way to know who you are is to listen to other people. And since knowing who you are is a precondition to being free, listening to other people, taking them seriously, having empathy for other people is a precondition to your being free, right? So freedom, freedom can never be a zero sum game. Freedom like, like it seems a paradox, but it's actually just true. The individuality always depends upon some kind of cooperative action. It always depends on some kind of recognition and some kind of cooperation. You can't get to individuality on your own.
- [34:10]
Allison Gill
And I also wanted to ask you, you know, we often on this show, we talk a lot about why people can tend to gravitate towards authoritarianism and tyranny. And for us, a lot of the answers that we get when we have those discussions is that, well, well, a lot of people, it's just easier. It's not as much work as a democracy or a true multiracial democracy. Talk about what you discuss in the book about why people can tend a certain segment of the population gravitate toward authoritarianism.
- [34:42]
Timothy Snyder
Well, I mean, there's the general answer, which I'm sure is very familiar, which is that democracy is hard. There is no force in the world which favors democracy except the people who want democracy. And we delude ourselves when we think the Founding Fathers or the Constitution or capitalism or history or whatever, like those are like the pagan gods of the fake democrats. You, if you. The only thing which actually favors democracy are people who want to rule. That's it. Nothing Else. So if you're not a person who wants to rule, then you're not working for democracy. And all of those displacements are actually. They're not just mistakes. They're incredibly counterproductive. American exceptionalism is incredibly counterproductive here. Like, I'm from Missouri, and I'm not really from Missouri. It's just. I'm saying I'm really from Ohio, which is where I am now. But, like, show me, right? Like, if you're exceptional, show me you're exceptional. Don't say you're exceptional, because when you say it, that means that you're not. You know, all of this stuff, like believing that the economy is going to make you free, that's. Those are all actually invitations to authoritarianism. Because freedom always is friction. Like, it's always working against something. Something. It's never, ever brought from the outside. It's always an expression of an eccentric, unusual, individual character.
- [35:54]
Allison Gill
It.
- [35:55]
Timothy Snyder
It can't be anything else. But I want to give you a second, specific American answer which has to do with negative freedom. So we talk about freedom a lot. And so let me repose your question as why do people who talk about freedom end up loving fascism or end up loving authoritarianism? And it's because when you talk about freedom the wrong way, you're moving very quickly towards fascism. It goes like this. If I think freedom is me against the world, that means I never have to ask who I am, right? If I think freedom is me against. Against the world or against the government, it's a very small step for me then to go on to freedom is me against my fellow Americans. And so very quickly. And so this kind of resolves this weird American thing where people say they're libertarians, but next Tuesday, they're fascists, right? People start by saying, it's me against the government. It's just about negative rights. And the next thing you know, they're saying, you should build a wall, right? And this is why. Because freedom, negative freedom, means no responsibility for yourself. It. From the beginning, the problem is always on the outside. And then all you have to do is locate the problem as being not the government, but the system or the people who are helped by the system or some conspiracy, and boom, you're a fascist.
- [37:05]
Allison Gill
Wow. Well, Timothy Snyder, I really, really appreciate you coming on, and I could talk to you for hours, seriously. But I appreciate you coming on and talking to me about the new book on freedom. It's out now, wherever you can get your books. And you know me, everybody, I like to get everybody books for the holidays, I'll go to maybe a local bookstore, order it through my local bookstore, buy 10, 15 copies, wrap them up and then hand them out on the holidays. That's like, that's the, that's the way that I do holiday gifting. And this is definitely a book that you want to put in the hands of many, as many people as you possibly can. Do you have any final thoughts or is there anything or you want to tell us where they can, can folks can find and follow you online or on social media?
- [37:45]
Timothy Snyder
Well, first of all, I don't, I don't want to forget to thank you for all of your good work, which is, which has helped me over the years. And I want to thank you for this conversation and for getting ready for it and because I've become convinced that conversation is like the way to get the ideas out. So I'm really appreciative.
- [38:00]
Allison Gill
Thank you.
- [38:00]
Timothy Snyder
As far as finding me, I mean, right now I'm in the Midwest. You can find me tonight. Actually, it's too, it'll be too late. I'm going to be in, I'm going to be in Detroit. I'm going to be in, I'm going to be in Kalamazoo. I'm going to be in Chicago. I'm in Oklahoma City. I'm going to be in Dallas the next few days. And you can find me on Twitter, you can find me on Twitter still and you can find me on my substack, which is called Thinking about.
- [38:19]
Allison Gill
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today, everybody. Stick around. We'll be right back. Hey everybody, welcome back. Thanks for listening to my interview with Timothy Schneider. Make sure you pick up your copy of On Freedom Today. It's really, really incredible the way, it's just the way it's logically put together. It's so succinct, it makes so much sense and it'll arm you with the, the, the things and the ideas required to go out and talk to other people about freedom, especially as it relates to politics. All right. I wanted to read for you this new article from the Atlantic that came out by Jeffrey Goldberg. It's called Trump I need the kind of generals that Hitler had. The Republican nominee's preoccupation with dictators and his disdain for the American military is deepening, he Sundays. Here in April 2020, Vanessa Guillen, a 20 year old army private, was bludgeoned to death by a fellow soldier at Fort Hood in Texas. We all remember this. The killer, aided by his girlfriend, burned Guillen's Body. Gan remains. Her remains were discovered two months later, buried in a riverbank near the base after a massive search. Guillen, the daughter of Mexican immigrants, grew up in Houston, and her murder sparked outrage across Texas and beyond. Fort Hood had become known as a particularly perilous assignment for female soldiers, and members of Congress took up the cause of reform. Shortly after her remains were discovered, President Donald Trump himself invited the Guillen family to the White House. With Guillen's mother seated beside him, Trump spent 25 minutes with the family as television cameras recorded the scene. In the meeting, Trump maintained a dignified posture and expressed sympathy to Gann's mother. I saw what happened to your daughter Vanessa, who was a spectacular person and respected and loved by everybody, including in the military. That's what Trump said. Later in the conversation, he made a promise. If I can help you out with the funeral, I'll help. I'll help you with that, he said, I'll help you out financially. I'll help you. Natalie Colomb, the family's attorney, responded, I think the military will be paying. We'll be taking care of it. But Trump. Trump said, good. They'll do a military. They'll do a military. That's good. If you need help, I'll help you out. Later, a reporter covering the meeting asked Trump, have you offered to do that for other families before? And Trump responded, I have. I have personally. I have to do it personally. I can't do it through the government. The reporter then asked, so you've written checks to help for other families before this? And Trump turned to the families still present and said, I have, I have, because some families need help. Maybe you don't need help from a financial standpoint, I have no idea. I just think it's horrific, the thing that happened. And if you did need help, I'm gonna. I'll be there to help you. A public memorial service was held in Houston two weeks after the White House meeting. It was followed by a private funeral and a burial in a local cemetery attended by, among others, the mayor of Houston and the city's police chief. Highways were shut down and mourners lined the streets. Five months later, the Secretary of the Army, Ryan McCarthy, announced the results of an investigation. McCarthy cited numerous leadership failures at Fort Hood and relieved or suspended several officers, including the base's commanding general. In a press conference, McCarthy said that the murder shocked our conscience and forced us to take a critical look at our systems, our policies, and ourselves. According to a person close to Trump at the time, the president was agitated by McCarthy's comments and raised questions about the severity of the punishments dispensed to senior officers and non commissioned officers. In an Oval office meeting on December 4, 2020, officials gathered to discuss a separate national security issue. Toward the end of the discussion, Trump asked for an Update on the McCarthy investigation. Christopher Miller, the acting Secretary of defense, by the way, Trump had fired his predecessor, Mark Esper, three weeks earlier, writing in a tweet, mark Esper has been terminated. Miller was in attendance, along with Miller's chief of staff, Kash Patel. At a certain point, according to two people present at the meeting, Trump asked, did they bill us for that funeral? What did it cost? According to attendees and to contemporaneous notes of the meeting taken by a participant, an aide answered, yes, we received a bill. The funeral cost $60,000. Trump became angry. He said, it doesn't cost 60,000 bucks to bury a fucking Mexican. He turned to his chief of staff, Mark Meadows, and issued an order, don't pay it. Later that day, he was still agitated. Can you believe it? He said, Fucking people trying to rip me off. Unquote. Kawam, the family attorney, told me she sent the bill to the White House, but no money was ever received by the family from Trump. Some of the costs, Kawam said, were covered by the army, which offered, she said, to allow Guillen to be buried at Arlington National Cemetery. And some were covered by donations. Ultimately, Guillen was buried in Houston. And this is again from the Atlantic. And may I recommend if you aren't already subscribed to the Atlantic. I've gifted this article online, but if you aren't already subscribed, please do. It's a really, really great publication. Shortly after I emailed a series of questions to a Trump spokesperson, Alex Pfeiffer, I received an email from Cohom, who asked me to publish a statement from Mayra Guillen, Vanessa's sister. Pfeiffer then emailed me the statement, quote, I am beyond grateful for all the support President Donald Trump showed our family during a trying time, the statement reads. I witnessed firsthand how President Trump honors our nation's hero's service. We're grateful for everything he has done and continues to do to support our troops. Pfeiffer told the Atlantic he did not write that statement and emailed a series of denials regarding Trump's quote, fucking Mexican comment. Pfeiffer wrote, president Donald Trump never said that. This is an outrageous lie. From the Atlantic, two weeks before the election, he provided statements from Patel and a spokesman for Meadows, who denied Having heard Trump make the statement via Pfeiffer, Meadows spokesman also denied that Trump had ordered Meadows not to pay for the funeral. The statement from Patel that Pfeiffer sent me said, quote, as someone who was present in the room with President Trump, he strongly urged that Vanessa Guillen's grieving family should not have to bear the cost of any funeral arrangements, even offering to pay it himself in order to honor her life and sacrifice. In addition, President Trump was able to have the Department of Defense designate her death as occurring in the line of duty, which gave her full military honors and provided her family with access to benefits, services, and complete financial assistance. The personal qualities displayed by Trump and his reaction to the cost of the Guillen funeral, contempt, rage, parsimony, racism hardly surprised his inner circle. Trump has frequently voiced his disdain for those who serve in the military and for their devotion to duty, honor and sacrifice. Former generals who have worked for Trump say the sole military virtue he prizes is obedience. As his presidency drew to a close and in the years since, he has become more and more interested in the advantages of dictatorship and the absolute control over the military that he believes it would deliver. Quote, I need the kind of generals that Hitler had. That's what Trump said in a private conversation in the White House, according to two people who heard him say this, quote, people who were totally loyal to him that follow his orders, quote, this is absolutely false, pfeiffer wrote in an email. President Trump never said this. A desire to force US Military leaders to be obedient to him and not the Constitution is one of the constant themes of Trump's military related discourse. Former officials have also cited other recurring themes. His denigration of military service, his ignorance of the provisions of the Uniform Code of Military justice, his admiration for brutality and anti democratic norms of behavior, and his contempt for wounded veterans and for soldiers who fell in battle. Retired General Barry McCaffrey, a decorated Vietnam veteran, told the Atlantic that Trump does not comprehend such traditional military virtues as honor, as self sacrifice. Quote, the military is a foreign country to him. He doesn't understand the customs or codes it doesn't penetrate. It starts with the fact that he thinks it's foolish to do anything that doesn't directly benefit himself. I've been interested in Trump's understanding of military affairs for nearly a decade. At first, it was cognitive dissonance that drew me to the subject, according to my previous understanding of American political physics. Trump's disparagement of the military, and in particular his obsessive criticism of the war record of the Late Senator John McCain should have profoundly alienated Republican voters, if not Americans generally. And in my part, interest grew from the absolute novelty of Trump's thinking. This country had never seen, to the best of my knowledge, a national political figure who insulted veterans, wounded warriors, and the fallen, and with metronomic regularity. Today, two weeks before an election that could see Trump return to the White House, I'm most interested in his evident desire to wield military power and power over the military in the manner of Hitler and other dictators. Trump's singularly corrosive approach to military tradition was in evidence as recently as August, when he described the Medal of Honor, the nation's top award for heroism and selflessness in combat, as inferior to the Medal of Freedom, which is awarded to civilians for career achievements. During a campaign speech, he described Medal of Honor recipients as either in very bad shape because they've been hit so many times by bullets or they're dead, prompting the Veterans of Foreign wars to issue a condemnation. Quote, these asinine comments not only diminish the significance of our nation's highest award for valor, but also crassly characterized the sacrifices of those who have risked their lives above and beyond the call of duty. Later in August, Trump caused controversy by violating federal regulations prohibiting the politicization of military cemeteries after a campaign visit to Arlington in which he gave a smiling thumbs up while standing behind gravestones of fallen American soldiers. His Medal of Honor comments are of a piece with his expressed desire to receive a Purple Heart without being wounded. He also equated business success to battlefield heroism. In the summer of 2016, Kazir Khan, the father of a 27 year old army captain who'd been killed in Iraq, told the Democratic National Convention that Trump has sacrificed nothing. In response, Trump disparaged the Khan family and said, I think I've made a lot of sacrifices. I work very, very hard. I've created thousands and thousands of jobs, tens of thousands of jobs, built great structures. One former Trump administration Cabinet secretary told the Atlantic of a conversation he'd had with Trump during his time in the office about the Vietnam War. Trump famously escaped the draft by claiming his feet were afflicted with bone spurs. Quote, I had a doctor that gave me a letter, a very strong letter on the heels. That's what Trump told the New York Times in 2016. Once, when the subject of aging Vietnam veterans came up in conversation, Trump offered the observation to the Cabinet official, quote, vietnam would have been a waste of time for me. Only suckers went to Vietnam in 1997. Trump told the radio host Howard Stern that avoiding sexually transmitted diseases was, quote, my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave soldier. This was not the only time Trump has compared his sexual exploits and political challenges to military service. Last year, at a speech before a group of New York Republicans, while discussing the fallout from the release of the Access Hollywood tape, he said, quote, I went on to that debate stage just a few days later, and a general who's a fantastic general actually said to me, sir, I've been on the battlefield, men have gone down on my left and on my right, I stood on hills where soldiers were killed. But I believe the bravest thing I've seen was the night you went on that stage with Hillary Clinton. After what happened, I asked Trump campaign officials to provide the name of the general who allegedly said this. Pfeiffer, the campaign spokesman, said, this is a true story, and there's no good reason to give the name of an honorable man to the Atlantic so you can smear him. In their book the Trump and the White House, Peter Baker and Susan Glasser reported that Trump asked John Kelly, as chief of staff at the time, why can't you be like the German generals? Trump at various points had grown frustrated with military officials he deemed disloyal or disobedient. Throughout the course of his presidency, Trump referred to flag officers as my generals. According to Baker and Glasser, Kelly explained to Trump that German generals, quote, tried to kill Hitler three times and almost pulled it off.
- [50:38]
Martin Sheen
Off.
- [50:39]
Allison Gill
This correction did not move Trump to reconsider his view. No, no, no. They were totally loyal to him. This week, the Atlantic asked Kelly about that exchange. This week, he told the Atlantic that when Trump raised the subject of German generals, Kelly responded by asking, do you mean Bismarck's generals? I mean, I knew he didn't know who Bismarck was or about the Franco Prussian War, but I said, do you mean the Kaiser's generals? Surely you can't mean Hitler's generals. Generals. And Trump said, yeah, yeah, Hitler's generals. I explained to him that Rommel had to commit suicide after taking part in a plot against Hitler. Kelly told the Atlantic Trump was not acquainted with Rommel. Baker and Glasser also reported that Mark Milley, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, feared that Trump's Hitler like embrace of the big lie about the election would prompt the president to seek out a Reichstag moment. Kelly, a retired Marine general who as a young man had volunteered to serve in Vietnam despite actually suffering from bone spurs, said in an interview for the CNN reporter Jim Sciuto's book the Return of Great Powers, that Trump praised aspects of Hitler's leadership. He said, well, but Hitler did some good things, kelly recalled. I said, well what? And he said, well, Hitler rebuilt the economy, but what did he do with that rebuilt economy?
- [51:59]
Dana Goldberg
Me.
- [51:59]
Allison Gill
He turned it against his own people and against the world, kelly said. I said, sir, you can never say anything good about Hitler. Nothing. This wasn't the only time Kelly felt compelled to instruct Trump on military history. In 2018, Trump asked Kelly to explain who the good guys were in World War I. Kelly responded by explaining a simple rule. President should, as a matter of politics and policy, remember that the good guys in any given conflict are the countries allied with the United States. Despite Trump's lack of historical knowledge, he has been on record as saying that he knew more than his generals about warfare. He told 60 Minutes in 2018 he knew more about NATO than James Mattis, his secretary of defense at the time, a retired four star Marine general who had served as a NATO official. Trump also said on a separate occasion that it was he, not Mattis, who had captured the Islamic State state. As president, Trump evinced extreme sensitivity to criticism from retired flag officers. At one point, he proposed calling back to active duty Admiral William McRaven and General Stanley McChrystal. We talked about this on the show, two highly regarded special operations leaders who had become critical of Trump and he wanted to call them back to uniform so they could be court martialed. Esper, who was the defense secretary of the time, wrote in his memoir that he and Milley talked Trump out of that plan. Asked about criticism from McRaven, who oversaw the raid that killed bin Laden, Trump responded by calling him a Hillary Clinton backer and Obama backer and said, wouldn't it have been nice if we got Osama bin Laden a lot sooner than that? Trump has responded incredulously when told that American military personnel swear an oath to the Constitution and not the president. According to the New York Times reporter Michael Schmidt's recent book, Donald Trump v. The United States, Trump asked Kelly, do you really believe you're not loyal to me? Kelly answered, I'm certainly part of the administration, but my ultimate loyalty is to the rule of law. Trump also publicly floated the idea of termination of all rules, regulations and articles, even those found in the Constitution, as part of the effort to overturn the 2020 election and keep himself in power. On separate occasions in 2020, Trump held private conversations in the White House with national security officials about the George Floyd protest tests, quote, the Chinese Generals would know what to do, he said. That's according to former officials who described the conversations to the Atlantic, referring to the leaders of the People's Liberation army, which carried out the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989. Pfeiffer denied Trump said this. Trump's desire to deploy U.S. troops against American citizens is also well documented. During the nerve wracking period of social unrest following Floyd's death, Trump asked Millian Esperance, a West Point graduate and former infantry officer, if the army could shoot protesters. Quote, trump seemed unable to think straight and calmly. That's what Esper wrote in his memoir. The protests and violence had him so enraged that he was willing to send in active duty forces to put down the protesters. Worse yet, he suggested we shoot them. I wonder about his sense of history of propriety and of his oath to the Constitution. That's what Esper told the national public radio in 2022. Quote, we reached that point in the conversation where he looked frankly at General Milley and said, can't you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the legs or something. When defense officials argued against Trump's desire, the president screamed, according to witnesses, you are all fucking losers. Trump has often expressed his esteem for that type of power wielded by such autocrats as the Chinese leader Xi Jinping. His admiration, even jealousy, of Vladimir Putin is well known. In recent days, he has signaled that should he win reelection, he would likely govern in the manner of those dictators. He has said explicitly that he would like to be a dictator for a day on his first day back in the White House. And he has threatened to, among other things, unleash the military on, quote, radical left lunatics. One of his four former national security advisors, John Bolton, wrote in his memoir, it is a close contest between Putin and Xi Jinping. Who would be happiest to see Trump back in office. Military leaders have condemned Trump for possessing autocratic tendencies. At his retirement ceremony last year, Milley said, we don't take an oath to a king or queen or a tyrant or a dictator, and we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. We take an oath to the Constitution and we take an oath to the idea that is America, and we're willing to die to protect it. Over the past several years, Milley has privately told several interlocutors that he believed Trump to be a fascist. Many other leaders have also been shocked by Trump's desire for revenge against his domestic critics. At the height of the Floyd protests, Mattis wrote, quote, when I joined the military. Some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking the same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the constitutional rights of their fellow citizens. Now I want to tell you this article goes on, it's incredibly well written and there's a lot more to it. And I really encourage you to go to the Atlantic and subscribe and read all of this. It's very, very important and at least maybe send some excerpts to folks in your life who support Trump. It's quite a long read, so I'm not sure if a lot of Trump supporters would, would want to read it in its entirety, but there are some really important pieces of information in here. So thank you so much for listening to this. We have a lot of good news to get to and we're going to do that right after this break. Stick around. We'll be right back, everybody. Welcome back. It's time for the good news. Who likes good news?
- [57:48]
Dana Goldberg
Everyone?
- [57:49]
Allison Gill
Then good news everyone. And if you have any good news confessions, corrections, especially pronunciation corrections, send those in to us and with your good news, please attach your POD pet tax, that is a photo of your pet or any animal. And if you want us to guess something about that pet or the animal, please tell us what you would like us to guess and we'll give it our best shot. We're not very good at it, but it's fun anyway. And if you don't have pod pet tax to pay, you have two options. You can either send an adoptable pet in your area or send in your baby photo. We have baby photo tax now so send all that to us as well as any shout outs that you might have, whether it's a loved one, somebody in your community doing a lot of hard work, a self shout out, a shout out to a government program be it head start, WIC, SNAP, Section 8, Affordable Care Act, Medicare, Medicaid, you know, anything at all, you can send that to us and especially and including student debt relief. And you can send it all@dailybeanspod.com and click on contact. Do you see I'm trying to consolidate the intro to the good news. Have you noticed?
- [59:04]
Dana Goldberg
Yeah, I did see that.
- [59:06]
Allison Gill
I'm trying to make it not that because it's gotten to the point like.
- [59:11]
Dana Goldberg
The sign up address of submissions. Yeah, yeah.
- [59:15]
Allison Gill
Oh just keep adding. It just keeps getting longer and longer. But send anything to us really. Dailybeanspod.com click on Contact. And a heads up. In some states it is illegal to take a picture of your ballot. Vox compiled a list of laws in each state, but always be careful. And we're going to have a link in the show notes for you to a map that shows you whether or not you can share ballot selfies. All right, first up, from anonymous pronoun she and her. I so enjoyed the attempt at getting employment verification from McDonald's. Okay, so yesterday, Dana, I. I spent the last two days trying to prove that I worked at McDonald's in 1990. It's actually 1990, not 1992.
- [59:56]
Dana Goldberg
How'd that go?
- [59:56]
Allison Gill
I went back and looked at some photographs and it took me forever. And I still never found out. And I spent a good amount of time on the phone with a bunch of weird 1, 800 numbers like 1, 800 Big Macs and was unable. What? 1, 800 E. Coli is too short. So no. So I was unable to to verify it. But I took everyone on the journey with me. So that's what this is about.
- [60:21]
Dana Goldberg
That's amazing because I recorded those calls.
- [60:25]
Allison Gill
Anonymous goes on to say, I have a general correction on the news story about the Central Park Five lawsuit. The name of the very accomplished attorney representing them is pronounced Shannon, not Shannon. And interestingly, Shannon Spector is also the son of Pennsylvania's longtime Republican senator, Arlen Specter. I suspect. I know. I suspect if Senator Specter were still alive, he would not be a fan of the convicted felon. You have already seen my dog Bailey, so may I instead recommend the wonderful rescue he came from? Street Tales Animal Rescue in Philadelphia. Queen Elizabeth. And that's PET. And P-A-T-A-N-G-O.com. wonderful. Thank you for that. And look at this adoptable pet. Look at him. So cute.
- [61:11]
Dana Goldberg
Well, that. That's the. Yeah, it's a picture. Queen Elizabeth. So sweet. All right, this one's from Steph. Pronouns she and her. Hey, Beans. Voted in Arizona. Dropped off my ballot in a mailbox on Saturday. Had some support from Tucker and his sis Max and buddy Hazel. As I filled it out. See pics below. I teared up putting it in the mailbox. Yes, I did. Love you all. And my days start with the daily beans. Doesn't feel right when you.
- [61:37]
Allison Gill
You.
- [61:37]
Dana Goldberg
When it doesn't. FYI, update in real time as I type this. Just got a text from the Pima County Recorder. They got my ballot. Tears in my eyes. Thanks for making me laugh as I learn about the day's headlines. You and Dana rock. Go blue.
- [61:55]
Allison Gill
You know, I teared up voting this time, too. Yeah, thank you so much for that. Next up from Sydney pronouns she and her Allison and Dana, you spread such hope and I always walk away rejuvenated. Thank you. I have a shout out to my dear friend Emily who like you, believes in the power of the positive and the good. So much so she started a positive feedback app called Helou and you can get more information at Team Hilu. That's H I L U. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. It might be hilu.com it offers the opportunity for people to leave positive voice recordings to people they love or wish to give to affirmations and messages of encouragement. I just wanted to share this remarkable, beautiful project with you that is changing lives one at a time. I've included my grandson for my pod kiddo tax one huge bundle of love. Sidney, this baby.
- [62:47]
Dana Goldberg
Oh beautiful.
- [62:49]
Allison Gill
Oh, what a great little family.
- [62:51]
Dana Goldberg
I love this.
- [62:52]
Allison Gill
Thank you Sydney.
- [62:53]
Dana Goldberg
Okay, Jonathan, you're up next. Pronoun C and him. Good news from Texas. Yesterday, on the first day of early voting in Texas, this Lone Star would not recommend my 19 year old transgender son voted for his first time ever. He did so without a state issued photo ID because we have a MAGA shitheel Attorney General who is targeting trans people by putting them on a list if they have changed their gender marker on a state id. Him. That was my introduction. Because of this, we have waited on getting my son's ID until we have gathered the requisite supporting documents so that there is no quote change to track. We brought the requisite documents that the elections board accepts in lieu of photo id. When my son inserted his ballot into the tabulating machine, the entire room erupted in applause celebrating his first time to cast a ballot. I'm so incredibly proud of him and his courage and openly transitioning in a hostile state to his very existence. Voting has always been a family affair in our household and yesterday we finally all got to vote together. I love this story. As an extra added bonus, I got the election judge to tell another voter to remove her Collin County Republican Party hat in the voting area as that article of clothing violates the electioneering statutes. Double win for pod pet tax. I submit a photo of Dole. Oh good Dole, the burrowing horror who sits on the couch next to me in the mornings impatiently waiting for head pats and chin scritches.
- [64:27]
Allison Gill
I'm glad there's a pronunciation key because I would have called him D hole.
- [64:30]
Dana Goldberg
Oh my God.
- [64:34]
Allison Gill
Remember penut that?
- [64:36]
Dana Goldberg
Yes, Yep I do. I was like A.J. i think that's peanut. But.
- [64:42]
Allison Gill
D hole are on the case. Thank you, Jonathan. Oh, man. And congratulations.
- [64:51]
Dana Goldberg
I love that the whole place applauded.
- [64:52]
Allison Gill
That's so fucking cool. All right, next up, Rachel pronoun. She and her I have a self shout out. I did something that absolutely terrified me. I spoke to my stylist about whether or not she planned to vote. Oh, I love this.
- [65:04]
Dana Goldberg
She did.
- [65:05]
Allison Gill
And so I asked her if it was okay to ask her for who. Promising not to be critical. She said probably Trump. She knows me and where I stand. I after I asked her if she knew that he wanted to close the department of education and I'm a teacher and that affects me very personally. And she was shocked. She had no idea. I said so. Yeah, basically every public teacher you know would be fucked. I didn't say fucked at my salon. She asked what he wanted to do instead and I told her about how he wants to totally privatize it. I don't know whether I changed her mind, but maybe I planted a seed. This was especially scary for me as someone with adhd. I also have the super fun rejection sensitive dysphoria that can that can go with it. I did almost cry, but I kept it in. So yay me. I am a teacher in a population that's about 80% immigrants and refugees. So the idea of another Trump presidency is terrifying for me on so many levels. For podpet tax, here's another pick of star my Welsh Pembroke corgi. Keep on rocking in the free world, ladies. Oh, I early voted in Georgia today. I canceled my husband's vote. Sigh. But I did my part.
- [66:10]
Dana Goldberg
Oh, man, these houses divided. I don't know how y' all are doing it.
- [66:14]
Allison Gill
I know. And Dana, I've heard so many and seen so many posts on social media. Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, everywhere, Facebook, of of. It's usually women saying, here I am going to cancel my dad's vote or here I am going to cancel my husband's vote or here I am, they're canceling some MAGA's vote in their life. And I thought that that was an interesting way to talk about to talk about your vote. Anyway, thank you so much for that. The corgi is gorgeous. Thank you for sending that in and thanks for all your good news submissions. We will be back in your ears tomorrow. Maybe with less news, maybe with more. We don't know. Could be. It could go either way these days. We're less than two weeks out. Do you have any final thoughts today, my friend? I'm so glad you're back.
- [66:56]
Dana Goldberg
By the way, thank you. And I just have to say, while the time you're listening to this, we're less than two weeks away. So make a plan. Talk to someone. See if your friends are voting. Just, hey, put it in a group chat. Be like, everyone planning to vote. If someone's like, nah, I don't know if I can get off work. I don't know if I have the time. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. See if you can get them to the polls. Just do something. As Michelle Obama said, just do something. All gas, no breaks, less than two weeks. Let's fucking go.
- [67:20]
Allison Gill
Yeah, you know what you could do? Get one of those group text chats, the kind that you can't leave, right. And just hold everybody hostage and be like, I am not going to stop responding to this group chat until I have a commitment from everyone to vote. And if you need a ride, I'll give you a ride. I think that's because, man, being held hostage in group texts like, there's no way to leave. There's no way to leave. So just a thought. Thought, yeah. You know, annoy people into voting. That's something that might possibly work for you. All right, everybody, we'll be back in your ears tomorrow. Check out the new episode of cleanup on aisle 45. It's out right now. I go on a pretty sweary rant at the end, and I know we generally try not to swear in the public episode to clean up on aisle 45, but I was pretty mad. So check it out and we'll be back tomorrow. Until then, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other, take care of the planet, take care of your mental health, take care of your family. Vote blue over Q.
- [68:15]
Dana Goldberg
And please take all that family with you.
- [68:17]
Allison Gill
Yep. And go to vote.org check your registration. Go to vote411. And check your local ballot information. And please vote down ballot all the way.
- [68:27]
Dana Goldberg
I've been AG and I've been dg.
- [68:29]
Allison Gill
And them's the beans. Refried beans. I like refried beans.