Refried Beans | Fight On And You Will Prevail (feat. Marie Yovanovitch) | Mar 21, 2022

Summary

The Daily Beans Podcast Summary
Episode: Refried Beans | Fight On And You Will Prevail (feat. Marie Yovanovitch)
Release Date: March 23, 2025
Host/Author: MSW Media (Alison Gill and Dana Goldberg)

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Introduction

Refried Beans, hosted by Alison Gill and Dana Goldberg of MSW Media, sets the stage by nostalgically revisiting a past episode from The Daily Beans. This unique format allows listeners to reflect on how events have unfolded over the years. The hosts infuse their characteristic snark and progressive perspectives, promising an engaging blend of news, personal anecdotes, and insightful interviews.

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News Highlights

Supreme Court Nomination: Ketanji Brown Jackson

The episode begins with the top story of the day: Ketanji Brown Jackson's confirmation hearings for the Supreme Court. Alison Gill underscores the historical significance by noting, “Ketanji Brown Jackson is the first Black woman nominated to the Supreme Court of the United States."

Alison Gill [01:11]: "Ketanji Brown Jackson is the first Black woman nominated to the Supreme Court of the United States."

January 6th Committee Testimony

A major segment covers the latest developments in the January 6th Capitol events. According to Hunter Walker from Rolling Stone, former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, alongside campaign officials, allegedly orchestrated efforts to incite a march on the Capitol. This testimony, provided by Scott Johnston, suggests a premeditated strategy to overwhelm law enforcement and influence the certification of the 2020 election results.

Scott Johnston [05:30] (paraphrased): "Mark Meadows, Katrina Pearson, and Kylie Kramer deliberated on directing people to the Capitol, making it appear as if they acted independently."

Amidst discussions about Meadows' involvement, Alison humorously notes the complications surrounding the use of burner phones in these endeavors.

Reuters' Controversial Partnership with TASS

The hosts delve into Reuters' ongoing partnership with the Russian state-controlled media outlet TASS. Multiple Reuters journalists express discontent over distributing unverified and potentially propagandistic content, highlighting internal conflicts and concerns about editorial integrity.

Dana Goldberg [14:30]: "Reuters is bro. And you're a Getty image, by the way. I've seen."

In-Depth Interview: Marie Yovanovitch

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to an exclusive interview with Marie Yovanovitch, former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine and author of Lessons from the Edge. The conversation explores her extensive career, the challenges she faced during political turmoil, and her perspectives on current geopolitical tensions.

Marie Yovanovitch's Career and Values

Yovanovitch shares her immigrant parents' legacy and the values instilled in her, emphasizing public service and anti-corruption efforts.

Marie Yovanovitch [18:42]: "We have been given so much from the United States, and we need to give back."

Facing Political Retaliation

Discussing her removal from the State Department, Yovanovitch expresses feelings of betrayal and the broader implications for diplomatic integrity.

Marie Yovanovitch [25:32]: "It felt like a betrayal that I had been loyal and tried to do my job..."

Current Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Yovanovitch provides an analysis of the ongoing Russian invasion into Ukraine, highlighting Ukrainian resilience and the complexities of potential peace talks.

Marie Yovanovitch [34:08]: "That is what Ukraine is brought up on. Fight on and you will prevail."

Good News Segment

Transitioning from heavy news, the hosts introduce a lighter segment featuring listener submissions. This includes heartwarming stories, pet photos, and shout-outs to small businesses.

• Listener Correction: Barbara Cohen clarifies her name was mistakenly called as Barbara Jones, adding a humorous touch.

  Alison Gill [40:04]: "Imagine my bemusement when I heard AG on today's episode refer to the SDNY special master as Barbara Cohen."

• Pet Tacks: Listeners share adorable photos of their pets, fostering a sense of community and warmth.

• IT Crowd Appreciation: Jeff, a listener, commends the podcast for highlighting the behind-the-scenes efforts that ensured Y2K passed smoothly.

  Jeff [42:30]: "At age 23, I got to spend that New Year's Eve in a darkened operations center..."

Final Thoughts and Farewell

As the episode winds down, Alison and Dana reflect on the emotional highlights, particularly the inspiring confirmation hearing of Ketanji Brown Jackson. Dana underscores the importance of emotional expression and championing the women in our lives.

Dana Goldberg [49:10]: "Embrace that part of yourself, because there's so many people... saying, you shouldn't cry. Boys don't cry."

Alison and Dana bid farewell, teasing future content and encouraging listeners to stay engaged with their stories and adventures.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Alison Gill [01:11]: "Ketanji Brown Jackson is the first Black woman nominated to the Supreme Court of the United States."

2. Scott Johnston [05:30] (paraphrased): "Mark Meadows, Katrina Pearson, and Kylie Kramer deliberated on directing people to the Capitol, making it appear as if they acted independently."

3. Marie Yovanovitch [18:42]: "We have been given so much from the United States, and we need to give back."

4. Marie Yovanovitch [25:32]: "It felt like a betrayal that I had been loyal and tried to do my job..."

5. Marie Yovanovitch [34:08]: "That is what Ukraine is brought up on. Fight on and you will prevail."

6. Dana Goldberg [49:10]: "Embrace that part of yourself, because there's so many people... saying, you shouldn't cry. Boys don't cry."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Daily Beans masterfully balances serious political discourse with personal stories and community interactions. Through incisive analysis, heartfelt interviews, and engaging listener segments, Alison Gill and Dana Goldberg deliver a comprehensive and entertaining news roundup tailored for the progressive listener.

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Find and Subscribe:
Listen to The Daily Beans on your favorite podcast platform or visit DailyBeansPod.com to stay updated on the latest episodes and exclusive content.

Transcript

[Alison Gill]

MSW Media. Hey, everybody, it's Ag. And welcome to Refried Beans, where we play an episode of the Daily Beans podcast from the same week either one, two, or three years ago, so we can see how far we've come. So please enjoy this episode from days gone by and note the date in the intro. Refried beans. I like refried beans. That's why I want to try fried beans, because maybe they're just as good and we're wasting time. Jelly beans. Jelly beans. Daily beans. Daily Beans. Hello and welcome to the Daily beans for Tuesday, March 22, 2022. Today, confirmation hearings began for Supreme Court nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson. The U.S. secret Service takes the stand in the Cooey Griffin bench trial. A witness tells the January 6th committee that Meadows helped organize the march on the capit. And some Reuters reporters tell Politico they're over the Reuters partnership with Russian media partner Tass. I'm Alison Gill.

[Dana Goldberg]

And I'm Dana Goldberg.

[Alison Gill]

Hey, Dana. Hello. Happy Tuesday.

[Dana Goldberg]

Happy Tuesday to you. I love that I said that my name was, like, my name was new to me, and I'm Dana Goldberg. Like, look at that.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, wow.

[Dana Goldberg]

Well, there you have it. Every time I feel like I say it differently, I'm just trying to mix it up. People just trying to mix it up.

[Alison Gill]

Do it tomorrow. Just be like, I'm Dana Goldberg.

[Dana Goldberg]

I'm Dana Goldberg.

[Alison Gill]

Who put a question mark in the teleprompter. Whatever you put in there, Ron Burgundy will read.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, my God. So funny.

[Alison Gill]

Today I had a small dream come true. I got to talk with Marie Yovanovitch, former ambassador to Ukraine who testified in the first impeachment trial of Donald John Trump.

[Dana Goldberg]

Congratulations. Well done, my friend.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, it was just. She's just an incredible. She's a hero to me. She is a hero to me. 33 years in the Foreign Service, just absolute hero and just incredible talking to her. And her book is out now. It's called Lessons from the Edge. I highly recommend everybody grab it. It's a top contender for the next book club. As soon as we finish, go back to where you came from. And other helpful recommendations on how to become an American by Wajahat Ali. First episode is out this past Sunday. All right, we have a lot of news to get to. Let's hit the hot notes. Hot notes. All right, top story today. And I decide what top stories are, because the real top story is that Ketanji Brown Jackson is, you know, has been nominated first black woman in history to the Supreme Court of the United States. But I'm gonna slide a story in before that, so I just want everyone to know. I understand that is the top story of the day. But today, from Hunter Walker at Rolling Stone. Hunter Walker writes, donald Trump's White House chief of staff and national campaign spokesperson were involved in efforts to encourage the president's supporters to march on the Capitol. That's according to a person who says he actually overheard a key planning conversation between top Trump officials and the organizers of the January 6th rally on the Ellipse and has since testified to House investigators about the phone call. Trump and his allies have tried to minimize his role in calling supporters to the Capitol and argue he was simply participating in lawful, peaceful demonstrations. Scott Johnston, who worked on a team that helped plan the Ellipse rally, says that's just not the truth. He claims that leading figures in the Trump administration and campaign deliberately planned to have crowds converge on the capitol where the 2020 election was being certified and make it look like they went down there on their own, unquote. Johnson says he overheard Mark Meadows, that's former chief of staff who's under state investigation for voter fraud and federal criminal investigation for contempt of Congress, heard Mark Meadows. Johnson overheard Mark Meadows talking with Katrina Pearson, that's Trump's national campaign spokeswoman, and Kylie Kramer, that's the executive director of Women for America first pac, and that they were talking about plans for a march to the Capitol. Johnston said the conversation was clearly audible to him since it took place on speakerphone as he drove Kramer between the group's rallies. According to Johnston, Meadows, Pearson and Kramer discussed the possibility of setting up a permit to make the march from the White House to the Capitol official. He says the trio decided against officially permitting the march, citing concerns and remind you this is Mark Meadows on this call, citing concerns about security costs and about the optics of a sitting president organizing a push towards Congress as lawmakers certified his loss in the 2020 election. It could look bad if we permitted it, ultimately, Johnston tells Rolling Stone. They plan to, quote, direct the people down there and make it look like they went down there on their own. Johnson's account suggests there was a deliberate strategy by Trump allies to have supporters descend on the Capitol. Such a connection would implicate top White House and campaign officials in drawing crowds Congress without a permit, a step that could have required added security and may have allowed law enforcement to better prepare for the day's events, quote, unquote, days events. Those crowds overwhelmed the Capitol police, overwhelmed the Capitol. They overwhelmed the police. They overwhelmed just the barricades and engaged in an hours long battle with law enforcement. And four people died, as we know, during that attack. 140 officers were injured. On December 20, 2021, Johnston testified to the House Select Committee investigating, and he provided Rolling Stone multiple pieces of documentation showing his interactions with the committee. Johnson also told investigators he knew the call took place on a burner phone in the final days of 2020. And the reason he knows that is because he's the one who bought the fucking burner phones.

[Dana Goldberg]

I mean, come on.

[Alison Gill]

And it was actually Kylie Kramer who directed him to purchase three phones for that group. I'm wondering if that group includes Mark Meadows.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, my God.

[Alison Gill]

The committee is seeking Meadows phone records via subpoena sent to Verizon. But of course he sued to block that subpoena, and that case is ongoing.

[Dana Goldberg]

Well, the reason I would say that maybe Meadows wasn't a burner phone recipient is because he blocked to have his phone records subpoenaed at Verizon. Otherwise he wouldn't care. He'd be like, sure, get my phone records. It's not on there, but you're a jackass and probably used your own phone for the call.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, and he also used. We know that he used encrypted apps, encrypted messaging apps, which, I'm sorry, that's a violation of the Presidential Records Act. Anyway, anyway, I thought he was under investigation for it.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yes, I love this story because I was watching some of it. Anyway. Judge Katanji Brown Jackson, the first black woman nominated to serve on the Supreme Court, vowed to make the words inscribed on its edifice, quote, equal justice under the law, a reality and not just an ideal. That was in her opening remarks to the Senate Judiciary Committee on Monday. Judge Jackson's 51 years old began by first thanking God and then people who brought her to the threshold of history. She started with her parent. I was in tears.

[Alison Gill]

I know.

[Dana Goldberg]

She started with her parents. Recalling her father's decision shortly after her birth to relocate from Florida to Washington, D.C. to escape racism and, quote, experience new freedom. She noted that the spirit of public service they instilled in their children led her into a judicial career and inspired her younger brother to to join the army after the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. He served two tours in the Middle East. And this is a quote. I cannot possibly thank them enough for everything they've done for me, she said as they watched. I love you, mom and dad. Judge Jackson also reminded those watching the hearing that she, like Justice Amy Coney Barrett or Aunt Lydia As I like to affectionately call her, was appointed by President Donald J. Trump in 2020 and is the mother of school age children now. I know it has not been easy. This is a quote. I know it has not been easy as I've tried to navigate the challenges of juggling my career and motherhood, she told her two daughters. And she, even in, as she was speaking, candidly said, and I didn't always get that balance correct. I mean, it was beautiful. Her opening statements were beautiful. Judge Jackson.

[Alison Gill]

I was riveted. I was just.

[Dana Goldberg]

And the story about coloring with her father. I mean, tears. Okay. Judge Jackson, who joked about her propensity for writing lengthy decisions, was not economical in expressing her worldview and judicial philosophy. In remarks that lasted just under 15 minutes, she committed to adopt a, quote, neutral stance if confirmed, and promised to continue to produce expansive, transparent opinions so that each litigant knows that the judge in their case has heard them, whether or not the arguments prevail. Now, Judge Jackson spoke late on Monday afternoon after hours of alternating celebrations of her achievements by Democrats and probing attacks from Republican leaders who have acknowledged they do not have the votes to stop her. Now, one by one, they logged a range of criticisms, including her work on behalf of defendants in criminal cases and her seat on the board of a school that, quote, pushes an anti racist education program for white families. That's according to the racist senator, Marsha Blackburn, a Republican from Tennessee, who, by.

[Alison Gill]

The way, is well known for winning fifth prize in a beauty contest.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah. Hey, she touts that shit. Now, Judge Jackson did not address any of those issues in her prepared remarks. She was attentive, however, to more conventional conservative criticism that she would use her power on the high court to impose liberal policies without appropriate judicial restraint. Lindsey Graham, particularly, was an asshole during this time. I think he brought up Kavanaugh 15 times. And of course, the judge he wanted in that was not nominated. He is just salty. My God, he's so salty about Kavanaugh.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dana Goldberg]

And he's on the court. He's sitting on the goddamn court. Excuse me. I know that offends some people. He's sitting on the court, so.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, I know, I know. It's like, what are you. And Ted Cruz was also a phenomenal dick today.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, yeah? Well, today you don't even need today. Ted Cruz was a phenomenal dick.

[Alison Gill]

Born. Born and raised. Okay, up next. Remember we've been talking about this Cooey Griffin case. It's a bench trial, which means it's not in front of a jury. It's just in front of a judge. The judge is Trevor, Trevor McFadden, Trump appointee. And the whole argument that he claims is that, hey, when I was at the Capitol, I wasn't on restricted grounds because restricted grounds are defined by who's there. A head of state has to be there. And I don't think Pence was there. I think he was taken somewhere away from the Capitol complex. And so I can't be charged with misdemeanor trespassing. And so the. Did the Coohy's defense said, hey, yeah, we need to cross examine and ask the Secret Service where they took Pence. We have to know where exactly where he was because the government here is saying, you know, that he was trespassing. And their whole case is based on where Pence was. And the government's like, you are. We don't want you asking the Secret Service shit, dude. We don't want to give away sources and methods. Just fuck off. You know, like, look, it doesn't matter because Pence was going to come back. I'm paraphrasing, by the way. Yeah, Pence was going to come back.

[Dana Goldberg]

I hope you're not. I really actually hope you're not, because Pence.

[Alison Gill]

This might actually be how it went down, but, you know, Pence was going to come back. It doesn't matter. We don't want to tell you where our secret spots are for when we whisk people away from danger, dumbass. And so but Trevor McFadden. Trevor said, no, you. You do have the. They do have to answer questions about Pence's location because your case hinges on this. And they said, fine, fine. So that witness got up on the stand today and they just basically asked, where was the vice president? And the government asked, you know, the government was like, where? We took him to the loading dock. Where's that? It's underneath the Senate side of the Capitol. It's within the restricted part of the. Of the grounds. And like, okay, is that. Is everyone fine now? Can we go home?

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, my God.

[Alison Gill]

Like all of that back and forth and filing after filing and after filing for a fucking misdemeanor trespass charge. And then here could just comes the Secret Service lady saying, yeah, it was in the loading dock. Everyone knows that. It was reported by Yahoo News. And they were down there.

[Dana Goldberg]

And that's what a waste of time and money.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, I know, but I will see what. Trevor. Trevor is the one who makes the call on this. Because like I said, it's a bench trial. It's not it's not in front of a jury and it's just a couple of misdemeanors. So he's probably going to get like, probation. You got to go clean up dog shit or something for a week. Who knows?

[Dana Goldberg]

We'll see. All right, ag, thank you for catching us up on that. There's so much joy in the news today. This one, we've got employees, one of the most well known newswire services. They are privately fuming over their company's ongoing partnership with a Russian state controlled media organization that has published unverified information about the war in Ukraine. Now, multiple journalists at Reuters told Politico that staff are frustrated and embarrassed by the company's continued partnership with tass. And that's a wire service owned by Russian government. So the relationship dates back just to 2020, when the newswire first announced a partnership to distribute content from the state owned news organization. That move raised some eyebrows among staff at Reuters at the time. You think? Yeah. But it passed largely unnoticed by people outside the company.

[Alison Gill]

No, I noticed.

[Dana Goldberg]

Of course you notice.

[Alison Gill]

Excuse me, yellow.

[Dana Goldberg]

You're not just anybody outside the company.

[Marie Yovanovitch]

That's true.

[Dana Goldberg]

Now, in the wake of Ukraine invasion, more scrutiny is being placed on this agreement. Now, of course, including from Reuters, their own employees, everyone's like, what the fuck? In a quote, they said it was an embarrassment when the partnership was signed two years ago. That's from one Reuters reporter. That's what they told Politico. They went on to say, now it's just wrong and the silence from the top is worrying. And it may be the worst part because no one's saying anything. So according to two Reuters journalists who spoke to Politico on the condition of anonymity in order to candidly discuss internal matters, some staff has sought answers from higher ups about why Reuters continues to distribute tasks via its business to business service, Reuters Connect, that allows news organizations that pay for the wire service to access and share TAS content. Now, Reuters staff have specifically expressed concern about TASS's uncritical reporting. So they're not fact checking shit of the information from Russian government, which critics and media experts say is basically just propaganda. So the news's organization ties to the Russian government. They haven't always been purely of a journalistic nature either, if you will. Now, both the Daily Beast and the Washington Post, they previously reported that the U.S. law enforcement officials believe TASS worked with Russia's foreign intelligence service to attempt to gather sensitive information on markets and finance from New York City. Now, there's at least one News organization that task ties had taken a different approach. Earlier this month, Getty Images ended its relationship with TAs for violating the photo services editorial policies, saying that it plans to remove all task content when their current agreement is over. And I appreciate that. Even though they're just images, it would be really nice if Reuters got their shit together.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, I've been tweeting about this, like, what the fuck, bro?

[Dana Goldberg]

Yep.

[Alison Gill]

Reuters is bro. And you're a Getty image, by the way. I've seen.

[Dana Goldberg]

I am a Getty. I am a Getty image. There's several images of me on Getty. If anyone's interested, you could Google Dana Goldberg. Just make sure you put in comedian. Otherwise the producer comes up, which is really funny.

[Alison Gill]

I love that story. Yeah, it should be in your book when you write it. All right, that is the news for today. We're going to be right back with Marie Yovanovitch, former Ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary to the Ukraine. And she's the one who is why we say the words. They're going to go through some things because that's what Donald Trump said about her when she was trying to stop corruption and corruption by way of Rudy Giuliani and Gordon Sunland and Rick Perry and all that. So love it.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, love it.

[Alison Gill]

So we're gonna talk to her and you need to grab her book as soon as you can. It's called Lessons from the Edge, whenever you get a chance. So we'll be right back with that interview, and then, Dana, I'll see you on the other side for good news.

[Dana Goldberg]

Looking forward, everybody.

[Alison Gill]

Stick around. We'll be right back after these messages. We'll be right back, everybody. Welcome back. I am honored today to be speaking to former ambassador to Ukraine, author of the book Lessons from the A Memoir, Marie Yovanovitch. Marie, welcome to the Daily Beans.

[Marie Yovanovitch]

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

[Alison Gill]

I'm so honored to talk with you. As I was. I'm reminded of when I first got to speak to Colonel Alexander Vindamin and just the incredible service that he provided to our country and the service that not only did you provide during the impeachment hearings, which is when most of us met you, but for the 33 years prior to that, with your long career in foreign service, ambassador to three different countries and mostly familiar with Russian disinformation, and many times we've spoken on our podcast about how, as Americans, we're kind of new to it and how frustrating it must be to know what is involved with that kind of disinformation and to see it come into a country for the first time and us not know how to respond to it. But I'm so honored to speak to you today. And I wanted to talk about your book, and the title is Amazing Lessons from the Edge. And the thing that stood out to me the most was the through lines from your early life into your career and to now. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[Marie Yovanovitch]

Yeah. So my parents immigrated to the United States. They had fled. They both fled the Nazis. My father was actually born in the Soviet Union and allowed to leave, grew up in what is what was then Yugoslavia, and my mom grew up in Nazi Germany, and they both ended up fleeing the Nazis and ended up in the United States. And they were so grateful, as I think so many immigrants are, to the United States for providing safe haven, a place to bring up their children, a place where they could have steady work, a place where they could be free. And they brought my brother and I up on those values and also on kind of the lesson that you need to give back. We have been given so much from the United States, and we need to give back. And my parents did that throughout their lives, very active in the church and in our community. But they were also both teachers, and they brought up generations of students who still love them and still talk about them and still are in touch with us. And so, you know, that was how I was brought up. And then I went to Princeton. The motto at the time was Princeton and the nation's service. We heard that, you know, every big speech when they gather, the French freshmen and then the sophomores and so forth. You heard that and I heard that. And so when I was looking for a career, I thought about the Foreign Service because it combined my interests, but it was also a way of representing the United States and furthering our national security objectives. And I have hopefully done that throughout.

[Alison Gill]

My career, I would say definitely. And that's fascinating, the Princeton sort of the origin story of not just where you come from and the need to feel that you have to give back to the nation. And we hear that echoed in so many different patriots that are now working under the Biden administration, at least. And in the past, in the Obama administration, I remember Merrick Garland saying similar things. Colonel Vindman, when I spoke to him, and mine came from when Obama was echoing the jfk, ask not what your country can do for you to be of service. And so that sort of sacrifice and service, and there was sacrifice, too, you actually were in danger quite a Few times pinned by gunfire, I read in Russia. And was it also Kyrgyzstan or Uzbekistan? I can't remember.

[Marie Yovanovitch]

Yeah, I was there for a short six weeks. But a gunman attacked the embassy. It had nothing to do with the U.S. but a gunman did attack the U.S. embassy and we were sort of quarantined there until they could get the gunman out of the building. He actually held our accountant hostage in the building. I was on an upper floor, but it was still. You remember those things?

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, no doubt. And that kind of service is something that I imagine, even though very dangerous at some points you miss, I imagine that you miss it.

[Marie Yovanovitch]

I do miss working for the US Government because I am, well, I'm very idealistic. And so it gives your life a greater purpose when you are not only working for yourself, but you are working for the greater good. And you know, one cannot say that American foreign policy has always done the right thing every time. Nobody would say that, but I think we try really, really hard to get it right with the information we have at the time, with the goals that we have mind. And so it really, it gives you a sense of purpose. And there is of course, a community, not only the community of foreign service officers at the State Department and, or at an embassy, but there's also the community of your, your foreign interlocutors and the people in the country that you're stationed at. And in the best cases, everybody is kind of working together for the same ends. I mean, when I was in Ukraine, for example, the Ukrainian people wanted to end corruption. That's why they had the revolution of dignity, which means I want rule of law. I want to be treated just like you're being treated, just like the President is being treated. I don't want to have to pay a bribe because a policeman has stopped me because he's not making enough money. I want to be treated with dignity. I want there to be one rule of law for every person. And so that's what they wanted. That's what their government said they wanted. And that's what we wanted for them as well, because we thought that would be good for Ukraine's development. But we also thought that, and think that countries that are democracies, where there is rule of law, where there is predictability, where our companies can do business, where we can have security partnerships, those are better partners for us.

[Alison Gill]

And who would have thought it would have been from within the United States that would come and try to upset that sort of anti corruption ideal in Ukraine? But that's exactly what happened. And you said the best case scenario is everyone's working toward the same end. But you found yourself at a pretty severe juxtaposition with what was going on, at least in a shadow diplomacy situation with Rudy and I think Rick Perry and whoever they considered the three amigos that were sent over to Ukraine. And you were targeted and part of a smear campaign, part of a disinformation campaign against something that you're very familiar with, having worked as ambassador and with the countries of the former Soviet Union. What was that like to be. I mean, I was removed from my job in the federal government, but I was not admitted. Disinformation target. And I feel like your life was in danger at some point. Did you feel that?

[Marie Yovanovitch]

I actually didn't. I mean, there was a moment in 2020 when there were some texts that were released that seemed to indicate that even some Americans working with Ukrainians had been following me when I was still in Ukraine. But by that time in 2020, I was already gone. But that gave me a little bit of a moment, but I felt very well protected in Ukraine. So, no, I mean, again, maybe I'm naive, but I did not feel that I was in danger at any time.

[Alison Gill]

But you felt, you know, you say in the book that you felt it was your duty to testify when this came out, and you couldn't not basically talk a little bit about that, because this is sort of the same. Other folks who I've spoken to about their testimony during the impeachment trial feel the exact same way. It's a duty. And there wasn't even a question in your mind. Talk a little bit about that and what it was like to be kind of thrust into the spotlight.

[Marie Yovanovitch]

Yeah. So I'm going to actually go back to your last question and say I never felt that I was in physical danger, but I did wonder whether there would be retaliation, whether whether firing me was going to be enough. Because generally, in the normal world, if you pull somebody out of an embassy for alleged wrongdoing, there would be an investigation and perhaps even charges. And I was wondering, because I was contemplating retirement, would they take away my pension? And then, of course, there was the perfect phone call, you'll recall, with President Zelensky and President Trump. And I didn't know that. I figured into that phone call until September when the transcript was released. And that transcript revealed that President Trump said, she's going to go through some things that was, you know, late September. There was already an inquiry. I can't remember whether it was already an impeachment. Inquiry. And, you know, I was wondering, what are those things that they are talking about? Because they've already run me out of my job. What else am I going to go through? It was frightening, honestly, in that sense. Then, of course, very quickly, the impeachment committees started reaching out to the State Department and making clear that they wanted me and other people to testify. While I would love to say that I was racing over there to testify, I mean, I was concerned. I was concerned whether there would be retaliation because the Trump administration, both the White House and the State Department, made it very clear that we should not be testifying. And I was worried, like I said, that there would be retaliation. That. And so the last place, I think a career diplomat, a career civil servant such as yourself wants to be is in between a, you know, a Democratic House and a Republican executive branch and president, especially in the run up to presidential elections, because we already knew that there was some element of politics and all of this as well. So I, you know, I was, you know, having this debate with myself that, can I do this? What will it mean if I do this? What will it mean if I don't? Finally, I came to the place that if I don't testify, I really couldn't live with myself because my larger obligation was not to an individual, but to the Constitution. And this is a constitutional process. I did come to that, but I would say, you know, with a great deal of trepidation, I mean, these are big historical events, and I certainly never thought that I would be, you know, even a minor player in something like this.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And then to have your own State Department not back you up, and I'm familiar with that feeling when I was removed from Department of Veterans Affairs, Secretary Wilke was the secretary at the time, and he. There was just no. No one stood up for me. And despite over a decade of outstanding service reviews and performance evaluations and awards and decorated, you know, like, really worked hard. So what did it feel like to have, you know, I know Bill Barr did this to a lot of the line prosecutors in the Department of Justice. Just wasn't there, just didn't have their backs. What was that like to have the State Department kind of turned its back on you and ask you to pledge loyalty to a person and not the Constitution?

[Marie Yovanovitch]

Yeah, well, it felt like a betrayal is what it felt like, that I had been loyal and tried to do my job and was implementing our policy as stated. The Deputy Secretary of State told me I had done nothing wrong. And this was, you know, they were pulling me out because it was to protect me from a tweet from the president firing me. And I, you know, it just felt like a betrayal. If I had done nothing wrong, then why was I being, you know, pushed out? And it made me, it made me sad for myself, but it also made me sad and mad for the State Department because if this happens to me, it can happen to other people. And many people were paying. This was still not front page news in the United States yet. But you know, there's a group of people that follow these kinds of things certainly in foreign policy. And people were wondering what was going on. Other ambassadors were wondering, is the same thing going to happen to me? I'm going to push a difficult policy. Anti corruption is a difficult thing to work because you are breaking people's rice bowls. Nobody wants to reform. We don't like doing it here in the United States and we don't, you know, people overseas don't like doing it either. So it's difficult. And you make, if not enemies, at least you make people not happy with the actions that you're taking. But that was our policy. And so my colleagues were wondering, gosh, if I make waves in the country I'm posted to, is the same thing going to happen to me? And bad actors around the world, whether they were in the US or whether they were overseas, they could see, oh, I don't like that particular ambassador, but I can work with the Trump administration, I can manipulate them or I can cut some sort of a deal and get that person out. So it was undermining our whole, in my opinion, it was undermining the integrity of our personnel system and our foreign policy.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. Which is also a danger to national security, in my opinion. And there are investigations into what went on in the Trump administration with some corrupt Russian backed Ukrainian actors who were working with Rudy Giuliani, perhaps Dmitry Firtosh who is working on being extradited. He's not working on it, but others are. Do you know anything? Are you able to comment at all on either the Southern District of New York or Eastern District of New York investigations into what went on during that time?

[Marie Yovanovitch]

I really can't comment.

[Alison Gill]

Okay, Understood. Understandable. Open and ongoing matters. And finally, I want to talk to you just briefly about the situation today, which is obviously there's, it's transformed into now a full on Russian invasion into Ukraine. And this kind of reminds me of going back to these Trump, these early Trump administration campaign peace plans that were being floated around, the Mariupol plan or putting Yanukovych back into power, etc. Carving up parts of the country for Russia to have. And we're entering now the fourth week, and Ukraine's been able to hold off the Russian army, much to everyone's surprise, frankly. And the bravery of the Ukrainian people is astounding. But talks now Zelenskyy is getting ready to perhaps have some talks, peace talks with, or some sort of talk, talks with Putin. But I know that he's not willing to sacrifice any Ukrainian territory. Can you talk, you know, both actors, both players here very well. What, what could come out of those talks? What could an agreement possibly look like?

[Marie Yovanovitch]

So Zelenskyy has been ready for the last couple of years to talk to Putin, I mean, even before the February 24th invasion, because part of his country was in Russian hands. The illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014, and then of course, the invasion of the eastern part of the country called the Donbas. And so he wanted to resolve that. He wanted to speak with Putin directly about that. Putin was never ready to meet with him. I mean, Putin obviously does not like, shall we say, Zelensky. He's made that very clear with his whole denazification goal, which is clearly, I mean, it's clearly code for getting rid of people we don't like. And at the top of the list is Zelensky, even though he is Jewish. I mean, it is just a crazy, crazy kind of warping of language in a 1984 Orwellian kind of a way. So Zelensky's been ready for a long time, but I would be very surprised if Putin would agree to meet with him, at least in the short term. But what has been happening for several weeks now and continues is Ukrainians and Russians are negotiating about what the outlines of some sort of a settlement would be. There's lots of items on the table and it's not clear to me because I think both the Russians and the Ukrainians are not entirely clear publicly. And that is understandable because it's really hard to negotiate out there in the public with everybody out there, as well as with an adversary. So it's not entirely clear to me what the red lines are for Ukraine. But I think one thing that's important to understand is that Ukraine is a democracy and you are seeing it in action now. You were talking about how the Ukrainian people are resisting and how this is an all of nation effort. And I think they are, you know, they are going to be watching whatever the outlines of an agreement is. I mean, Zelensky is not only going to have to be able to sell it, whatever it is, to the Russians. He's going to have to sell it to the Ukrainian people. And after the last three weeks, at least, the people I'm in touch with are. I mean, they. They want Russia to pay and they want their country whole and free. They are very clear on that. Now, that's not to say that ultimately Russia may not dominate militarily, because it appears that Vladimir Putin is ready to use 15th century siege like tactics along with 21st century weapons. I mean, it's terrifying. But even if Russia prevails at some point militarily, I think there will be a guerrilla war and there will be acts of civil disobedience. There will be snipers on rooftops shooting at and probably killing because they're very good. The Russian occupier. I think that if I were a Russian soldier, I wouldn't want to go into a Ukrainian cafe because I wouldn't know what was going to be served to me. And I wouldn't want to get into a car that had just been serviced or gassed up by a Ukrainian, because the Ukrainian people will resist. There's this. The favorite poet of Ukraine is a guy named Taras Shevchenko. He lived in the 1800s and was kind of the father of Ukrainian nationalism. And his most famous line is, fight on and you will prevail. And that is what Ukrainian children are brought up on.

[Alison Gill]

Wow, that's. Yeah. And I really feel that when I speak to, like, folks like Colonel Vindman, when we talk about the Ukrainian people, I'm going to have to check out that poet now. Thank you so much for introducing me. Anyway, it's been wonderful to speak to you, everyone. The book is out. It's out now. It's called Lessons from the A Memoir by Marie Yovanovitch. You can find it wherever you get your books. And are you on social media, Marie? Can people follow you?

[Marie Yovanovitch]

No, I'm kind of old fashioned in that way.

[Alison Gill]

Well, if you ever hop on Twitter, let us know and I'll make sure that we get you a good followership. And for now, everyone just grab the book. It's really fascinating. Incredible read. And thank you so much. It has been an honor to speak with you.

[Marie Yovanovitch]

Thank you. Really appreciate it.

[Alison Gill]

Everybody, stick around. We'll be right back with the good news after these messages. We'll be right back, everybody. Welcome back. It's time for the good news. Who likes good news, everyone? Then good news, everyone. We would play what the mutt. If you, you know, if you want us to guess what kind of breeds and make up your rescue pup. What else would be stories? Halloween photos, Easter bunny photos? Whatever you got, send them into [e-mail] and click on Contact. And also, if you're a maker or you have a small business, let us know. We'll give you a shout out all the things. First up is a submission from Barbara Cohen. She her. And this is a correction. Yes. Thank you, Barbara. Imagine my bemusement when I heard AG on today's episode refer to the SDNY special master as Barbara Cohen. Oops. What? Someone's been impersonating me for months. The special Master is Barbara Jones. That's correct. I'm so sorry I had you on my brain, Barbara.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, that's funny.

[Alison Gill]

She may have the secrets, but I have the voice. She does absolutely love Barbara's voice. We could listen to it all day on the Zoom Calls, the Friday Happy Hour Patreon Zoom Calls. Thanks, Ag, dg, Amy and the MSW Media production staff for all you do to keep me informed and laughing through these challenging times. For pet tacks and providing pictures of, left to right, my pet niece Andy, my pet nephew Sully, and my pet niece Lily. Actually, my brother's family's menagerie.

[Dana Goldberg]

Okay, so I would steal Sully in a heartbeat, even though I'm. Well, I'd steal all of these animals. But Sully looks like a tiny, tiny cheetah.

[Alison Gill]

She's so pretty.

[Dana Goldberg]

A tinies. A tinies. A tiny cheetah. A very tiny cheetah. Oh, what a beautiful cat. And the dogs are adorable.

[Alison Gill]

I know. This dog on the right is killing me.

[Dana Goldberg]

So cute.

[Alison Gill]

So adorable.

[Dana Goldberg]

Well, thank you for kicking off with the correction. We always appreciate them and you deliver them so softly. All right, this is from Jeff. Pronouns he and him. Greetings, beans queens. I'm a listener and a patron. A patron. A patron since the late kitchen days. Thank you for keeping us informed on all the news that that's fit to swear about. I do have a gripe about a recent episode. While talking about Y2K scare, Allison seemed to suggest. Allison. Allison seemed to suggest that the lack of significant problems on the day showed that the hype was driven by fear mongering, profiteering fraudsters. I'm here as a member of the quote IT crowd. The IT crowd to counter that narrative armies of honest nerds worked for years behind the scenes fixing creaky old computer code to make January 1, 2000 the near nothing it turned out to be. At age 23, I got to spend that New Year's Eve in a darkened operations center, watching for signs of trouble in a US government computer network and eating shitty pizza in lieu of champagne. I imagine many of Allison's fellow sailors had a similarly fun night. To round out the compliment sandwich, though, let me just say that it's a joy hearing your voices each morning and that I'm grateful for the sacrifices you all, essentially, especially Allison, have made to make the truth tasty and to keep it coming. For Podpet tacks, here's our 14 year old black Lab Mix Raleigh. He hasn't really gotten the memo about his age yet and is always down for an adventure, no matter how lame that adventure may be. Maybe you can work out what his unknown father looked like. His tongue has a wine stain, so probably some chow chow in there.

[Alison Gill]

Yep, yep. Definitely some chow chow in there.

[Dana Goldberg]

What a cute boy.

[Alison Gill]

Yes, and thank you, Jeff. I've gotten a lot of emails from the IT crowd saying hey, there was no problem with Y2K because we fucking worked. We worked on it and that's why it went off without it.

[Dana Goldberg]

Nice.

[Alison Gill]

So my apologies. Hats off to everyone who made it Y2K go off without a hitch. You are our heroes. And yeah, I'm sure I had a lot of sailor buddies that were sitting in a dark room that night. I was not. I was on a boat. I'll be honest, for New Year's Eve 2000, I was on a boat on the bay having some champagne. So thank you. Thank you for your tireless work. Although one correction for you, Jeff. The sacrifice I made by not having to work for the government anymore. Sacrifice is a strong word. No, I'm kidding. I actually do really miss my job, but thank you very much for pointing that out. Next up from anonymous Pronouns, he and him. First time sharing my pronouns. Awesome. I have a confession. I would listen to the podcast for the news updates and then the interview and then bail on the good news. I just laughed out loud as I typed that. Skipping good news. Now I go from beginning to end. I really appreciate the good news, so thank you. I decided to take action on my health and go to the gym at 4am ish. And as I'm on the cardio machine for the full time of your podcast, it makes it easy. Attached are photos of rescue senior Patsy, a baby, mostly blind beagle. She was with me for two years before moving on with congestive heart failure. All I assure you, the ears in the photo were absolute velvet and she has wonderful life on heated blankets and belly rubs. Also, when we Would get to the vet. She was always ushered in with her bed. I would carry in her bed so she would have something familiar inside the room. We would sit on the floor. I share that in case anyone else might spark to that idea. I now have two senior puppies in the house and will be looking to rescue another soon. Love to you all. Xo. Thank you.

[Dana Goldberg]

Thank you so much. Also, I don't know, I don't want to read too much into this, but if you're sharing your pronouns for the first time because it's the first time, like, if there has been a change in your life, if I'm reading into this still, congratulations. So whatever that is about, thank you for this first time sharing. I just want to say that if there's something in between the lines there, congratulations. And I love it. Oh, my God, the baby. The last picture.

[Alison Gill]

I know. It's so cute.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, you wanted to. You want me to take the next two? I'll take the next two.

[Alison Gill]

Sounds good.

[Dana Goldberg]

Okay. This is from Lisa Pronoun. She and her. FYI, the find. The cat game is not just for cats. Benny's our resident champion. And Benny is definitely burrowed between pillows. That is hilarious.

[Alison Gill]

Between the two pillows on the left. And it reminds me of plaid's trains and automobile. Where are your hands? Between two pillows. Those are pillows.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah. How about those bears? All right. This is from Phil. Pronouncing him. You rock. It's wonderful to hear accountability and your daily analysis. It helps keep balance out all the fox pundits. Now, I recently got a new job and also submit my dog June for what? The mutt and kittens for pet tax. Excuse me. Which is the kitty? I rescued June from a Q Inspired neighbor. Oh. Then June found the cat, and now they're best friends. Truly a dream. And they are very cute. Now this. What the mutt. I'm gonna say that there is definitely some dalmatian and pit.

[Alison Gill]

I see some healer.

[Dana Goldberg]

And healer cattle. Oh, maybe it's healer instead of dalmatian. Actually, I don't know.

[Alison Gill]

Ozzy and pibble and black lab.

[Dana Goldberg]

But there's definitely pitbull in there. Oh, we've got answers.

[Alison Gill]

Oh, let's see. Pitt, Staffordshire shepherd. Husky. Chesapeake Bay retriever. That's where The Chesapeake Bay retriever. That's where I thought of the. The spots. You know, the. The healer.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah.

[Alison Gill]

I really think she's a knockoff pointer, and I still love her. She's beautiful.

[Dana Goldberg]

So beautiful.

[Alison Gill]

Love these. They're both Tuxis. It's so cute. All Right, next up, Jenny pronouns she and her greetings and salutations. To say I love you all is an understatement, but I won't go into the mushy stuff here. Oh, come on, Jenny. We need details. She says. Today I'm writing to share some great news and a personal story. For the personal story, I was listening to Charlotte Clymer and wanted to share that we are one of those families who had a kid on hormone blockers. My oldest child had precocious puberty starting at the age of one.

[Dana Goldberg]

Interesting.

[Alison Gill]

Whoa. Yes. A one year old with full on puberty, menses, and the whole thing. They were on hormone blockers for 10 years and it provided them a path for growing up that meant they didn't finish puberty in elementary school. They were lifesavers for us. I was thrilled to hear Charlotte mention the use of these treatments during her interview. It never fails that a single bean show can take me through the gamut of emotions in one go of the show.

[Dana Goldberg]

That's awesome.

[Alison Gill]

And as for the good news, this week the Department of Justice announced that the Americans with Disabilities act applies to digital experiences. That means businesses and online spaces cannot discriminate against people with disabilities by having inaccessible sites, apps, et cetera. This is huge for people who have been shut out during the pandemic when so much went online and was inaccessible to their assistive technologies. While we don't get accessible sites overnight, we are a step closer with the supportive Department of Justice.

[Dana Goldberg]

That's awesome.

[Alison Gill]

Yes. Much love, Jenny. Thank you, Jenny, for that. And that's wonderful, both of those things. And dude, Charlotte is just. I love her.

[Dana Goldberg]

Speaking of, I know this is crazy, but as we're recording, I'm literally texting. I got a text from Charlotte because she's in LA and I'm hoping that I'll get to see her and I'll let everyone know if I do. We've met before. I just love her to death. But it's just really weird that we're reading this story and my phone went, ding.

[Alison Gill]

Do let me know when I'll drive up.

[Dana Goldberg]

Oh, yeah, if we'll. Okay, we'll talk about it off the air. So people aren't like, man, I could have been there.

[Alison Gill]

Or.

[Dana Goldberg]

Or they show up.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah, we could just, you know, forget them. Hey, what are you having for dinner? What's for dinner? Later? What are you doing? Totally.

[Dana Goldberg]

I should talk to her in a minute. I'll let you know as soon as possible.

[Alison Gill]

So everyone get that? Everyone got that?

[Dana Goldberg]

Okay, Everyone got that? We'll let you know.

[Alison Gill]

We'll send pictures.

[Dana Goldberg]

Sorry if we just gave FOMO to everybody. I'm so sorry.

[Alison Gill]

You send us your photos, please. Send us your pod pet tax photos, your Easter Bunny photos, Halloween pictures, what the Mutual Find the cat. Whatever you want to send us, please. Your woobies. I love photos. I love the woobie stories. You can do that by daily. Go on to DailyBeansPod.com and clicking on Contact. Dana, do you have any final thoughts today?

[Dana Goldberg]

I actually do. As I was watching the Ketanji Brown Jackson confirmation, they showed the most beautiful images of her husband with tears streaming down his face because he was so proud and so happy for her. And then they showed their daughter watching her father cry. Tears of joy and pride. And so for those people out there that either it's hard for you to cry or you don't think you should, or you don't think you can, or you just never do that. I just want you to try and embrace that part of yourself, because there's so many people, and especially people that were socialized as men throughout their lives, saying, you shouldn't cry. Boys don't cry. Fucking cry. Let it go. It's cleansing. It's beautiful, and it's vulnerable. And champion the women in your life because they deserve it. So I just want to say that was one of my favorite parts of today, and I hope everyone carries it forward with them.

[Alison Gill]

It was lovely. It was amazing to watch. And, yeah, that part about motherhood and how she tried to balance work and family and she hopes she did her best. It was just so touching.

[Dana Goldberg]

It really was. What a beautiful woman, inside and out. And I know that she will be our next Supreme Court justice, but I'm just so happy it's her. What an upstanding human being.

[Alison Gill]

Yeah. And any speech she ever gives, I will listen to.

[Dana Goldberg]

I love listening to her 100%.

[Alison Gill]

She's amazing. All right, thank you so much, everybody. We'll be back tomorrow. Dana, you're gonna be. Are you back tomorrow or are you up?

[Dana Goldberg]

I am with you. Yep. I'm still with you tomorrow.

[Alison Gill]

One more day. Okay, so that means everyone has to listen, because after that, Dana's gonna be gone for a week.

[Dana Goldberg]

I'll be gone for a week. I will miss you all. But I get to go back to work again. And so I'm will be out of range of any sort of possibility of Alison and I coordinating recording times.

[Alison Gill]

What are you doing? Cruise ship.

[Dana Goldberg]

I am. I'm doing a riverboat in Portugal with a bunch of Sweet lesbians. Older lesbians. But I love them very much.

[Alison Gill]

I love my lesbian elders.

[Dana Goldberg]

And when I say older, I just mean older than me, by the way.

[Alison Gill]

Elders. Our elders.

[Dana Goldberg]

Yeah. People that I love and respect and I get to learn so much from. You know, it's so funny because everyone. No one really knows what these trips are like, and everyone has an idea. But my favorite parts are sitting with women that have been together for 40 years and hearing about their love stories and how they met and what they do for a living, and to be able to hear about these lives that were very different than mine. You know, it was a different time when they were coming out of the closet and they couldn't hold hands in public and they couldn't be gay or they'd get fired. And that's still the case in some states, but. So these trips are really. They're really wonderful. Wonderful for my soul. I get to connect with humans on a level that just fills me up.

[Alison Gill]

Well, I look forward to the photos and the store and hearing the stories about it. But we do have you for one more day, and so that's tomorrow. Until then, everybody, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other, take care of the planet, take care of your mental health, and vote blue over Q. I've been AG and I've been dg, and them's the beans. Refried beans. I like refried beans.