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- [00:00]
Michael Wolff
Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer? May I suggest your big wireless build? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint's story is better. Every plan $15 a month, even unlimited. That's it. Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
- [00:23]
Joanna Cowles
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50gb. Me slow when network is busy. See Terms. And we're live on Matchday as Doug
- [00:33]
Michael Wolff
reaches for a buffalo wing.
- [00:34]
Joanna Cowles
He's got it. Oh, and he's gone for a can of Pepsi too.
- [00:38]
Michael Wolff
What a finish.
- [00:39]
Joanna Cowles
There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Matchdays deserve Pepsi.
- [00:46]
Michael Wolff
In business, the best days are when priorities stay on track. The Hartford helps midsize and large companies manage key exposures with insurance and proactive risk solutions, so focus can stay where it belongs. Visit thehartford.com riskmitigation to learn more. He is stuck. This is the worst mistake he has made. He cannot. He has tried literally everything. I'll give you any kind of agreement you want if you just stop this. This war. Plus I will pay you to stop this war. We'll give you anything you want you if you'll just stop the war. And they won't stop it. They keep coming back. They know how to play him. So this is a whole process of trolling Donald Trump.
- [01:38]
Joanna Cowles
Michael Joella. Ugh. Ugh. All right, again. I mean, I feel like it's impossible not to start by just saying so much to cover. Not least, I think death is inside Trump's head. I think he's obsessed with it this week.
- [02:00]
Michael Wolff
Well, I'd like to hear your reasoning on that because I think being obsessed with death assumes a level of self awareness. So unless you see a breakthrough on that end, I don't see how we get to the other end. But explain.
- [02:18]
Joanna Cowles
Give me your so my theory, which I'm prepared for you obviously to demolish the moment I finished it. And I should just say, I'm Joanna Cowles of the Daily Beast. I'm talking to Michael Wolff, author of four Trump books and this is our Thrice Weekly.
- [02:37]
Michael Wolff
I can't even imagine how many we have done to date, like 150 or something.
- [02:43]
Joanna Cowles
This is our spelunking inside Trump's head, looking for meaning in what is essentially a government of one fair descript.
- [02:54]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I mean, looking for what motivates him. And because he is not motivated by the things that. Or at least my thesis would be, he is not motivated by what motivates other politicians. He doesn't really care about policy. He doesn't really have an agenda. He doesn't really think about his legacy. He thinks about. Whatever random thought comes into his head, and that often is precisely what motivates him. But in a broader sense, he's also motivated by attention. Donald Trump wants attention for being Donald Trump.
- [03:36]
Joanna Cowles
And I wonder if he's been thinking about his death and how he's gonna get attention in death. And maybe that will be his most attention moment. And I say that. Do I think that death is inside his head? Because he did a crazy truth social post, which I'll read out in a moment. We had the moment of him changing planes. So he had to give up his fancy new Air Force grift, force One for the safer plane because the Israelis had told him that there was an Iranian threat on his life, which he knows because they've been after him for some time. The new leader, Machaba Khamenei, has said that he wants to avenge the death of his father. And then I think you have Tyler Robinson, who's been. We've had preliminary hearings this week because he's the alleged killer of Charlie Kirk. So you have all these things floating around that I think, I don't see how they cannot be in Trump's head. And then you've got Mitch McConnell ferried out of his home three weeks ago in an ambulance and nobody's really heard from him since, apart from Scott Jennings,
- [04:58]
Michael Wolff
you know. Sure. I mean, the interesting thing is so many of these things. This is not the first time that he's encountered these, these, these things. The plane, he has always with airplanes, the Iranian situation. Oh, my God, it just goes on and on and on and on and on. The Supreme Leader's threats against Trump at this point, and we don't even know if the Supreme Leader is actually alive.
- [05:31]
Joanna Cowles
Right. That is true.
- [05:32]
Michael Wolff
So the Supreme Leader may actually be Mitch McConnell at this point. So, you know, this has a ritual feel. You know, the Iranians are always doing that kind of death to americ Americans and etc. Etc. And also he has faced the Iranians trying to assassinate him before, not very effectively, by the way. So I don't know. And I just doubt that Trump really thinks that existentially about anything and to the extent that he considers his mortality, I think it's to, it's to say, it's to consider it as something that is, that has no end, that there is no immediate mortality for even for an 80 year old. And by immediate mortality I mean, I mean nowhere in the, in the medium or even long term. He is, he is Donald Trump and that, that distinguishes him from the rest of humanity, which is certainly an element at all times of what's in his head.
- [06:50]
Joanna Cowles
Okay, so I'm going to read his truth social post which triggered me to death is inside his head. I could do my imitation. I may go into it. But let me start normally. A thousand missiles are locked and loaded and aimed at the Islamic Republic of Iran with thousands of more. His grammar, not mine, to immediately follow should the Iranian government act on its threat. Pronounced in many corners of the globe to assassinate or attempt to assassinate the sitting President of the United States of America, in this case, me. Orders have already been given and the US Military is ready, willing and able for a one year period of time, subject to extension, to completely decimate and destroy all areas of Iran. Praise be to Allah in caps. President Donald J. Trump.
- [07:41]
Michael Wolff
Well, you know, yes, that is ridiculous and outrageous and preposterous and a sign of some kind of surely some kind of demented bearing. But it's hardly unique. This truth social is no more all of those things than, than thousands, literally thousands of other truth social posts from Donald Trump. And he's always threatening, he's always throwing out numbers that have no meaning. He's always setting deadlines that are subject to extension. This is just more of the same. I mean, this is what Donald Trump does. He repeats himself. Choice hotels get you more of what you value. Comfort Inn, it's calling your name, save on the stain.
- [08:39]
Joanna Cowles
Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Bookdirect@choicehotels.com okay, well the other thing, and then I want to go on to the Iranian leader's messages that he's been posting on Telegram. But the other thing that made me think this was that they are upping security at the White House. So as we know, there's been curious scaffolding that's gone up around the front portico of the White House, which apparently is to do with them strengthening and rehabbing the columns, but also reinforcing the front door to the White House. If ever there was a metaphor, there is one because they don't think it's secure enough. So I think this is playing on his mind. I don't see how it cannot be. And then here's what Mojtaba Khamenei is saying. And as we know, his, his father was killed in the initial bombings on 28 February. He's been apparently badly injured, as you say, we haven't seen him. So he could now have morphed with Mitch McConnell and the two of them have become a joint nemesis of Donald Trump, a Siamese twin of nemesis for Donald Trump. But he says this revenge, so he's saying he wants to avenge your pure blood and the blood of all those martyred these two wars by bringing the criminal and dishonorable killers to justice. I'm not going to try and do an Iranian accent. This revenge is the demand of our nation and it will most certainly be carried out. These criminals, whose names are known from top to bottom, will take to their graves the unfulfilled wish of dying peacefully in their beds. They should know that this does not depend on my personal presence or that of any other official. The revenge for his father's death will be accomplished. And he stressed that soon freedom loving people throughout the world will each carry out part of this divine mission that was in Axios this morning.
- [10:46]
Michael Wolff
And to that I say, yeah, yeah, I mean, this is everybody.
- [10:51]
Joanna Cowles
What does that mean? Yeah, yeah.
- [10:52]
Michael Wolff
It means this is all a ritual rhetoric.
- [10:57]
Joanna Cowles
It's all performance.
- [10:58]
Michael Wolff
It's the ritual rhetoric that the Iranians have been, have been issuing toward America and American leaders since 1979. And Trump's own rhetoric is effectively ritual. Now, I think there is a bigger problem here is that he can't get out of this situation. So if he's thinking of anything and perhaps a kind of death comes into his calculations here is that he is, he is stuck. This is the worst mistake he has made. He cannot, he has tried literally everything he has offered, everything I'll give you. The issue now is a peace agreement or a ceasefire agreement that he, that he went into so quickly and so desperately that it means anything to anyone who reads it. So, so he's, he's, he's tried that. I'll give you, I'll give you any kind of agreement you want if you just stop this, this war. Plus I will pay you to stop this war. Literally. I will, I will, I will.
- [12:10]
Joanna Cowles
I.
- [12:11]
Michael Wolff
The, the billions of dollars that we have, that we have of Iranian dollars that we basically have control of because we've sanctioned this, this money, we'll release that. We'll, if you just stop the war. And they won't stop it. They keep coming back. They know how to play him. So this is a whole process of trolling Donald Trump as that statement from the alleged Supreme Leader or the alleged, the alleged statement from the alleged supreme leader.
- [12:49]
Joanna Cowles
Do you think in any way that he was impacted by seeing the kind of long posters of Donald Trump, we will kill you that were unfur over the week long funeral this week of the Supreme Leader of Machabe's father?
- [13:08]
Michael Wolff
Well, you know, I do think it does get under his skin and he is somewhat paranoid about this. And let me go back to something that we've discussed before, but I think it's one of those great snapshots of Donald Trump that during the 2024 campaign, he had been warned about the Iranians and plots against him. He goes out to Montana to campaign for Tim Sheehy, who was running for the Montana Senate, who ultimately won that race. But it was very, you know,
- [13:49]
Joanna Cowles
he
- [13:49]
Michael Wolff
literally had a sense of his head being down and he was saying to people, okay, you know, Soleimani. Because they had, remember, they had, they had, he had issued the death order against Soleimani and that was the issue that they were theoretically avenging. And so it was like, nobody mentioned Soleimani. I mean, he was literally like this. Nobody mentioned it. Okay, don't mention soul mania, because he was, I think he was genuinely afraid. And then, But Tim, Tim Sheehy comes out on the stage and then goes, goes into a rant. Donald Trump is the greatest president we have ever had. He is the guy who killed Sole Mani. And, and all of the aides are going, oh my God. And, and Trump is looking around furtively and then she, he goes on. So I, I want to say that I love the avenger of Soleimani. I loved. I. So that became a constant campaign joke.
- [14:54]
Joanna Cowles
SOLEMNI But I also wonder if this is cumulative as so much post traumatic stress is. I mean, the impact of Butler, the Butler, Pennsylvania, when Thomas Matthew Crooks attempted to assassinate him and did or didn't give him a wound on the ear. And that was that sort of his perhaps most astonishing moment when he gets up and he goes, fight, fight, fight. But then there's the guy who hides in the bushes and now there's this. And.
- [15:26]
Michael Wolff
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I get, I mean, I get it. And that you would think that this would certainly have an effect on, on, on anyone.
- [15:36]
Joanna Cowles
On anyone. Yeah, on anyone.
- [15:38]
Michael Wolff
And, and, and I think in the present, you know, when you are the president, this is something that you live with and, and you know, you're surrounded by an enormous security retinue. And that's kind of omnipresent. And it's hard not to have that in your mind, that it is always, your mortality is always on someone's mind who is very close to you. They surround him. So I think that has to be a factor. But I think the larger factor is that he's at a point in his presidency, a point in his political career, a point in the war in Iraq. He just doesn't know what to do. Can't, he can't. You know, he would not be feeling what you think that he's, he's, he's feeling were things going better for him, better for him politically, I mean. So I think the death thing is probably more in, more clearly related to his polling numbers than it is to whatever threats the Iranians are making against, against him. But I do think it is a moment in which, in which that, that, that might feel existential for him, not as a matter of his death, but as a matter of his, of his being unable to, to assert his dominance. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. @blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure. Right now, get up to 45% off site wide, plus get a free professional measure. @blinds.com rules and restrictions apply.
- [17:33]
Joanna Cowles
So what does he do here? I mean, the Iranians seem to have completely outmaneuvered him. The Strait of Hormuz is closed again. He's threatening that if they kill him, they'll be obliterated again. Although none of that makes sense because if they were to kill him, a new president would take over and very possibly change strategy and change policy.
- [18:00]
Michael Wolff
So, yeah, and it's also, remember obliteration. We've heard this word before. He returns to it. He has a limited. Trump's, remember, has a very limited range, which is part of the problem in dealing with his own problems.
- [18:16]
Joanna Cowles
So what happens here, Michael, is this, that Iran turns out to be an unsolvable issue for him.
- [18:24]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I think we've seen the answer and it's not necessarily related to Donald Trump. These presidents get into these forever wars and they can't get out of them. They don't know what to do. And it brings their presidencies down. Okay, so which the Iranians know. So that becomes a kind of. This becomes a sort of a part of the. A part of the battlefield. We can't win a war against the United States of America in terms of sheer military force, but we can win it in a different battlefield that now exists in the. In the global consciousness, in the political consciousness, in the media consciousness.
- [19:14]
Joanna Cowles
No, if you're the Iranian leadership, you almost couldn't have manipulated this better. Granted, they've taken a lot of damage. They've lost 40 members of their top leadership team in terms of what we know. But in terms of outmaneuvering Donald Trump, they appear to have done it. He started this, and now he's very much on the back foot. And it looks like he may well lose the midterms over it.
- [19:41]
Michael Wolff
Right. And it's, you know, killing all of those 40 members of the top leadership turns out to have made it only more difficult to come to a settlement here, because nobody knows who's in charge. Nobody even knows if the guy who is in charge is alive.
- [20:00]
Joanna Cowles
Well, similarly with Mitch McConnell. I mean, why haven't Mitch McConnell's team simply released a short video of Mitch in bed wishing his supporters well and thanking them?
- [20:19]
Michael Wolff
I don't know. Maybe this is a new political strategy. Maybe this is really compelling politics. All the attention is on you, but nobody sees you. It's kind of perfect. I mean, if. If Tom Keene wins in New Jersey, wins his race, then it will become suddenly, we will see politicians disappearing all the time.
- [20:46]
Joanna Cowles
That's so funny. Well, Donald Trump must be furious that Mitch McConnell's getting as much attention as he is, because as we know, they hate each other. And suddenly Mitch is the center of attention.
- [20:57]
Michael Wolff
So, I mean, we had an interesting
- [21:01]
Joanna Cowles
moment at the Daily Beast this week. Cause Scott Jennings said that he had talked to Mitch McConnell. He said that Mitch McConnell. And they talked for 20 minutes, and they'd, you know, been batting around policy and things. And we actually called CNN to see if Scott Jennings was held to the same account as their reporters. And CNN issued a statement to us saying that this is very much Scott Jennings experience, that he is not held to the same account as CNN reporters and that this is Scott's story to tell. But they were very clearly distancing themselves. Because until people have seen a proof of life video of Mitch McConnell, it's unclear what state he's actually in. But there's another thing I wanted to discuss with you, which is the subpoenas that were issued, seeing as we're on the theme of journalism. To New York Times reporters who had reported on the fact that Air Force One was being swapped. That seems like crazy overreach by administration.
- [22:07]
Michael Wolff
Now, now, there are, There are two issues here. The, the administration's ongoing war with the, the media. But in effect, this is, this is overshadowed by Trump's obsession with the airplane. So, you know, he, I mean, this happened. The subpoenas. The subpoenas went out because he's, he's storming around, and then people have to react. The people around him have to react. We have to give him something. This is crazy. They go, okay, crazy. We gotta do something here. And it is crazy because this is one of the subjects that he is crazy on now. He is crazy on many, many subjects, if not every subject. But this is then a question of degree, and he is. His craziness about airplanes is up there with the craziest of all the things that he's crazy about.
- [23:06]
Joanna Cowles
Well, but it's also the crazy of him using the law to try and shut down journalists. Right? So these are journalists from the New York Times who were woken up by people with subpoenas demanding their presence in court on Wednesday for what they say was breaking security rules.
- [23:24]
Michael Wolff
I absolutely. I mean, this, there's no, this is preposterous. It will be thrown out of court. It's not, It's, It's, it's, it's the kind of things that no presidents would do because they understand how the country works, how the Constitution works. It's absolutely out of bounds, and also, absolutely, from any kind of political, tactical, strategic point, absurd. So what it says more about is what's in Trump's head. Why would he be doing this? And, and yes, there's the issue of the media, and he reacts badly to whenever the media challenges him, but that happens all the time. In this particular case, what he's reacting to is about the airplane, because it is one of those things that he just can't get away from during the campaign. And it kind of marked the 2024 campaign, certainly among the people around him, because the plane, Trump Force One, at that point, was always going out of commission, was an old plane, and lots of things were going wrong with it. And he would fly into stupendous rages. People would get fired. People would. I mean, it was the. These were the blackest moments of the campaign. And there was something about the plane, and that represented a certain control he had. And when it went out of. When he was without that control, he just flew into a panic. And I suspect that is exactly what is going on now. The plane represents him. I think maybe this is even more to the point. It is that stand in for his power, his dominance, his, you know, his ability to be the commander.
- [25:39]
Joanna Cowles
Well, then, I mean, I was talking to Hugh yesterday on the Daily Beast podcast about it, and it's the longest plane out there. There's no world leader that I'm now starting to do, Donald Trump's amateurs. But there's no plane out there that matches it in of length or luxury, apparently. And clearly, as it turns out, security features.
- [26:01]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that he becomes invested in this. He's always invested in his planes. I mean, one of the things, the constant, this point of friction between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump was that, was that Trump often could not afford to fly his own plane, so he had to hitch rides with Epstein, and Epstein would constantly remind him of this. So that became Epstein's dominance over Trump. And I have, you know, it's a kind of a trope among, among billionaires that whenever you are with billionaires, one of the subjects that always comes up is their airplane. And often that their airplanes are broken and the maintenance requirements of these airplanes. So it is apparently gets under the skin of all people who own their own airplanes. But particularly this is a Donald Trump thing. And the people around him, and I've heard countless stories on that, are. It is alarming, worrisome. I mean, his overreaction is. Knows no bounds when it comes to many things, but particularly his airplane.
- [27:27]
Joanna Cowles
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- [27:55]
Michael Wolff
Sponsored by gsk.
- [27:57]
Joanna Cowles
Okay, so you mentioned Jeffrey Epstein, and we promised that we were going to talk about Jeffrey Epstein this week because we really haven't talked to him for a bit, which led me to ask you, has Donald Trump won the Epstein files? I mean, this week we've got Todd Blanche facing the Senate for his confirmation
- [28:18]
Michael Wolff
hearing, and that will come up. And this will come up, obviously. Yes. But the larger question, has Trump beaten the rap? And I think you can argue that he has. And one of the ways he may have beaten this rap is to have gone to war with Iran and caused himself Even a bigger head headache. But nevertheless, it was one. I mean, certainly the war in Iran has been one of those clear things that's overshadowed the Epstein controversy. But then there's this other thing which I think is interesting. They released the Epstein files, implicating a long list of other people because they have exchanged emails with. With Jeffrey Epstein. And the one person who might be most implicated for his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein did not send Jeffrey Epstein any emails, because he doesn't send anyone any emails. He doesn't use email, which is, of course, Donald Trump. So, I mean, his wife has implicated herself in this because she used email, but not Donald Trump. So, yeah, I think that the end of the day, he may have beaten the rap.
- [29:51]
Joanna Cowles
So, in tomorrow's Daily Beast podcast, I interview Andrew Weissman, the former general counsel of the FBI, and he says, on no account should Todd Blanche be confirmed as Attorney General, largely because of the Epstein files, because the way they were
- [30:11]
Michael Wolff
put out there, you know, I mean, I think maybe the more pertinent credential of Andrew Weissman is that he was the effective number two on the Mueller investigation.
- [30:21]
Joanna Cowles
Right, the Mueller investigation into. Into Russia. But he, you know, adamant that Todd Blanche should not be confirmed, that his putting out of the Epstein files was a disgrace, that there's 3 million more files to come out. And he says there's clearly a smoking gun to do with Donald Trump in the remaining files that have not been released, otherwise why wouldn't they just put them out there? I mean, he's convinced of it, but
- [30:50]
Michael Wolff
on the basis of just because.
- [30:55]
Joanna Cowles
Well, I think on the basis of the fact that they've been so squirrely about.
- [31:00]
Michael Wolff
Right, but that's a. Because. Just because he doesn't know anything and he is not specifying anything that might be in these remaining files about Donald Trump.
- [31:12]
Joanna Cowles
Well, I urge people to listen to the interview, which will go up tomorrow, because he lists a whole series of reasons about the Epstein files. But the idea that Donald Trump has beaten them, possibly, as you say, by launching a war. Well, we couldn't have anticipated that when the files were released. I think they were released around the holidays in December, because there was all that overtime that went to.
- [31:40]
Michael Wolff
That was the first tranche and then there was a second tranche. Yes, right.
- [31:44]
Joanna Cowles
Because there were all these stories coming out of the FBI of people having to work through the holidays that they were desperate to get these things out there, obviously, when people weren't paying attention. But as you say, he may have caused a war to avoid it, and the war ends up being the thing that brings him down.
- [32:05]
Michael Wolff
But I think the Blanche thing is interesting. Sure, the Blanche should, by any logic, not be confirmed, but that's true about virtually anyone else in the Trump administration also. So Todd Blanche is not unique, but there is a way, and we've talked about this before, and I think it's interesting, and it's my advice for the Democrats on how to approach the Blanche confirmation hearings in a way that might actually get him not confirmed. I mean, otherwise the Democrats will just do the Democratic thing and essentially saying, taking the Andrew Weissman line, this is a terrible person and should not be confirmed because he has terrible policies. And then it goes, and then it becomes just a partisan split. But were the Democrats to ask Blanche about his own political past when he was a Democrat, when he was an abortion supporter, when he was just a kind of regular New York liberal, I think that that could well antagonize much of the MAGA movement.
- [33:35]
Joanna Cowles
Well, it is unique that a president is appointing his own personal criminal defense lawyer as the attorney general. That has never happened before.
- [33:51]
Michael Wolff
Actually, Trump tried it once before in the first administration. He wanted Rudy Giuliani to be the attorney general. And that didn't fly precisely for this reason that people within the administration says, rudy, what are you talking about? Rudy's an abortion supporter, stands for nothing that the MAGA side stands for. And so that didn't work. And together with the fact, by the way, that when Trump discussed this with Rudy, Rudy said, jesus, I don't want to work that hard.
- [34:35]
Joanna Cowles
He doesn't want to work that hard. Well, to be fair to him, he worked quite hard as a New York mayor. There wasn't a single opening of anything, the opening of a pothole that Rudi didn't turn up for. I remember covering him when I was working at the Guardian. I was the bureau chief for the Guardian. I remember spending a couple of days running around after him, and he was helicoptering here, there and everywhere, all over the boroughs, just a whirling dervish in action. Obviously, a job he loved, and he's never had anything like it since.
- [35:09]
Michael Wolff
Right. But he certainly didn't seem like he wanted to go back to being a lawyer, which, frankly, won't go back to what you're supposed. Yes. Is what you are when you're the head of the doj, or at least what you used to be. Now you're a political. You're a political arm of Donald Trump, which Todd Blanche has made it clear that he is very willing to be.
- [35:36]
Joanna Cowles
Right. And remember that. Matt, getz was actually Donald Trump's first selection for Attorney general. When he came back in, Trump, too, and realized he was not going to get that passed through the Senate. Matt Getz had his own legal problems. I think that's why Donald Trump thought he would be. Yeah. How do we pronounce it?
- [35:56]
Michael Wolff
Gates.
- [35:57]
Joanna Cowles
Okay. Florida. Former Florida.
- [36:00]
Michael Wolff
And he was. Yeah, the. The only one who didn't make it through that round.
- [36:05]
Joanna Cowles
Right. He was the first one not to make it. And after that, the others all got through, amazingly, including Pete Hegseth. Okay, so let's talk about Mark Wayne Mullen, who, it turns out, has been working stealthily to increase the number of people deported and the number of people arrested. They're hitting targets now, sort of two and a half, 3,000 people a day are being arrested. And then, of course, we've had this terrible shooting of Lorenzo Salgado Arejo in. I think that's how you pronounce it in Houston.
- [36:39]
Michael Wolff
It's interesting because what we see is that their strategy has been exposed. So go back to. Along with Iran Epstein, I would add Minneapolis to the crises, the clearance political crises that Trump has had in this second term. So Minneapolis was terrible. And they seem to have decided to answer that by pulling back, by changing personnel somewhat of a U turn in terms of their. If not in terms of their policy, in terms of their behavior. But now we learn that this is not true at all. They were just. Their only U turn was that they were doing things which were out of public view. And now they have come back into public view, I think in a substantial way. They shot somebody, they killed someone. Now, they will clearly make the case that this was a person in this country illegally. But this person had been in this country illegally for 30 years, made a life, had a family,
- [38:06]
Joanna Cowles
he had three children, he had a job, he was paying taxes, and he was shot like Renee Nicole Goode in his car. And the feds have said, well, he was using his car as a weapon. He was trying to run over the officers. Eyewitnesses say no, that's completely. And of course, the officers weren't wearing any kind of cameras. So we don't have body cam footage of what actually happened. And amazingly, we don't appear to have CCTV footage. And of course, this is all going on against the background of the investigation into Alex Pretti, the ICU nurse who got shot in Minneapolis and the shooting death of Renee Nicole Good. And there is, is the feds have stood in the way of that investigation. This is landing on Todd Blanche's desk. And the state itself is now saying, well, we have to do an investigation into this because nobody's looking into it properly. Nobody knows what actually happened here. And this has to be bad for Trump.
- [39:21]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I mean, and I'm just trying to think in. There are several ways in which this is bad for Trump. Not least of all, it turns out that they are deporting numbers, unprecedented numbers of people every day, arresting and deporting people. So then the question, I think the immediate question in the midterm question is how does this impact the Latino vote, which has been, you know, was a significant fulcrum of Trump's 2024 election?
- [40:04]
Joanna Cowles
Well, and also how does it, how does it impact the black male vote, which was also something that Trump crowed about having going on. You know what he says? Like, the blacks love me. The blacks love me. But the removal of tps, the temporary protective status for Haitians, for Syrians also has a knock on effect, not least for the health service, frankly, in which so many of them work. Certainly Haitians work.
- [40:36]
Michael Wolff
So the calculation here, now this is a cold calculation, is that they will sacrifice that, that vote against the MAGA vote. Does this galvanize the MAGA vote, the white, you can argue, fundamentally racist side of the Trump Party.
- [41:03]
Joanna Cowles
And is that enough? Because if it turns off Latinos, if it turns off black men, presumably in black women too, then yeah.
- [41:14]
Michael Wolff
And I'm, you know, I'm, how is
- [41:16]
Joanna Cowles
that a big enough coalition? It's not a big enough coalition to get him elected?
- [41:20]
Michael Wolff
You would, you would think not. But, and I'm interested in the workings behind this, which I don't exactly understand because this is a boneheaded political move or would certainly seem to be. So why are they doing this, especially given what happened in Minneapolis. And they saw the reaction to that, then they clearly understood it, okay, we can't go on like this anymore.
- [41:53]
Joanna Cowles
Right. They took the head of ice, Greg Bervino, out of Minneapolis, they shipped him back to California. He's now out saying he wants to do a run for president, schlepping around in his kind of Nazi inspired black leather coat. And then they brought, obviously they brought in Mark Wayne Mullen to take over from Kristi Noem, who got fired.
- [42:19]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, they're, they're, the, the, the plan was to send a different kind of signal in which they seem to have sent a different kind of signal until now. You know, and the problem with this is that this is always good, it's always going to come back to Somebody getting killed. Killed. Masked men with guns who are under trained. Who, whose, whose. Whose mission is a, is a quota. It's essentially a quota system. We've got to do this. We've got to hurry up, we've got to meet our quota. Shoot him. So shoot that guy who's in our way. Oh, but where does this come from? That's the, that's the thing. So is this the. I mean we've discussed this before of Stephen Miller's kind of extraordinary power and influence in this administration which continues.
- [43:17]
Joanna Cowles
Right.
- [43:18]
Michael Wolff
He is the only. He is the only person I know within this administration who basically has an untethered portfolio video. It's like you deal with that. Okay. Yeah, the immigration thing, you deal with it and you deal with it as you see fit. And Stephen Miller, who is a. I don't think that there's any way to couch this other than he is a flat out racist. I want this to be a white country. That's what's wrong with this country is that too many brown people are in it. What are we looking at? What are we facing? We're facing in the years ahead the possibility that it will be a brown majority country. We gotta stop that. $47,000. That's what the average engine customer saves on business travel every year. That's a 26% savings. All with no booking fees. Up to 70% off hotels, zero booking fees. Free to start total control. Find a hotel that meets your team's complex needs. Did we say no fees? We did. That's Engine teams travel spend managed get
- [44:41]
Joanna Cowles
started@enjin.com savings what even can his conversations with JD Vance be like? JD Vance married to Usha Vance, the daughter of Indian immigrant. I mean the vice president of the
- [44:58]
Michael Wolff
U.S. has three children whose conversations with J.D. vance.
- [45:04]
Joanna Cowles
Well, Stephen Miller's. I can't even imagine that. How do they talk together? What common ground could they possibly.
- [45:10]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think we should come back to the Vance, to the larger Vance question. I mean, Vance just wrote a book about Christianity, basically saying this should be a Christian nation. I mean, I'm confused about that too because he converted to Catholicism and so is he saying this should be a Roman Catholic nation, which most of the MAGA base is not Roman Catholic. So I'm confused about that. Which we should come back to. But clearly there is. The thrust of the Vance point of view is not that dissimilar from the Stephen Miller, the Jewish Stephen Miller view. I mean, I'm confused about everybody's identity here, but they clearly want a Nation that a. The nation is not now and has by any demographic viewpoint, will not ever be again. And. Yeah, so, you know, you know, shoot him. Shoot him down dead in the street.
- [46:22]
Joanna Cowles
Okay, so we think Trump has beaten the rap for now on the Epstein files. We think he's stuck in a war he can't get out of. We think that Stephen Miller and J.D. vance can't even imagine what they talk about.
- [46:37]
Michael Wolff
I just saw a possible fallacy in our argument about, about, or maybe my argument about Epstein beating the rap. If Todd Blanche, it is possible that Todd Blanche in his nomination could go down on that issue. And if so, I think that would clearly open up Trump's vulnerability on Epstein.
- [47:07]
Joanna Cowles
Well, I'm sure the Democratic senators looking forward to grilling him, are spending the weekend, one hopes they're spending the weekend researching everything they could about Todd Blanche.
- [47:19]
Michael Wolff
I know, but I'm sure they are. But just let me repeat that the silver bullet is abortion. Ask Todd Blanche about his views, his lifetime of views on abortion. And if they can get Todd Blanche to acknowledge that he had. Has. Has had a pro abortion thought in his life, which he certainly has, then that would kill this nomination.
- [47:53]
Joanna Cowles
Well, Graham Platner's officially out of the race. We've talked about him for the last couple of episodes. He's finally handed in his papers and said he's withdrawn coin. Not before saying that he wanted a vote in or he wanted influence in who should replace him. Which at this point seems.
- [48:13]
Michael Wolff
Just let me. I have a possible perspective on Platner because I had a bunch of people at my house last night for dinners. Social media stars of a much younger generation, direct from the Taylor Swift wedding. So that level of people. And it was. I said, so gimme, what's your view on the Graham Platner situation? And what did they say?
- [48:51]
Joanna Cowles
What did they say? They said who. They said who.
- [48:56]
Michael Wolff
So I, I just want to say that we.
- [48:57]
Joanna Cowles
Meaning they've forgotten him already.
- [49:00]
Michael Wolff
No. Meaning they never.
- [49:01]
Joanna Cowles
Meaning they've never heard of him.
- [49:02]
Michael Wolff
No, no, Irrelevant. Irrelevant to them.
- [49:06]
Joanna Cowles
Well, what did they say about the wedding, then?
- [49:10]
Michael Wolff
Oh, the wedding was fantastic. It was flawless.
- [49:14]
Joanna Cowles
Do we have any details?
- [49:18]
Michael Wolff
Yes, but I would be remiss and share.
- [49:22]
Joanna Cowles
What's the point in having details if you're not going to share them on a podcast?
- [49:25]
Michael Wolff
But it was. No, it was, you know, it was. Apparently we. We missed the wedding of the center.
- [49:33]
Joanna Cowles
I think that's what's known as a pod tease, where you say that you had people who are at the wedding for your house at dinner and now you can't tell us what they said. Do we need to know that they were even at your house for dinner?
- [49:46]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think the larger point is that we live in a bubble world that whereas Graham Platner is of crucial concern to us and other people in the political firmament, it is not to many other people, perhaps a much larger group of people. And that is possibly again goes to the Democrats misunderstanding of what is important in this world.
- [50:24]
Joanna Cowles
Well, I would have thought that the younger women in the group that you had would have been interested in Graham Platner's in the accusation.
- [50:37]
Michael Wolff
I know that you would have thought that and the Democrats would have thought that. In my opinion, passing focus group that would not be turns out not to be the case.
- [50:46]
Joanna Cowles
Do your passing focus group have any comment whatsoever on Trump's save Act? Trump's insistence that people coming to the voting booth should bring some sort of national id, photo ID to prove they are who they are, which is the one thing he's now trying to drive through Congress.
- [51:10]
Michael Wolff
That did not come up. But I think it is also one of those other things too that goes to a Trump obsession. Can't get it out of his head. So he's been told in every way possible that this will not pass, cannot pass. There are not the votes for this to pass. So even forget whether this is a good idea or a bad idea. It just is dead in the water at end the that often happens in Congress, but he won't give it up. And in fact so much so will not give it up that he refused to sign a piece of what would appear to be very crucial and positive bipartisan legislation that everyone could have gone back to the voters with about
- [52:04]
Joanna Cowles
how housing. Well, and that became law anyway yesterday. Right, but he didn't.
- [52:09]
Michael Wolff
It did, but it so it not only became law anyway, but he got no credit for it.
- [52:15]
Joanna Cowles
Right.
- [52:15]
Michael Wolff
So. And instead gets the, the, the opposite of credit for pursuing this piece of legislation that will not pass.
- [52:27]
Joanna Cowles
Well, he's an 80 year old man, Michael. He's an 80 year old man. Okay, so we have a couple of limericks. We have a couple of limericks for people. One is from mkfi1jk that mango color, that rust will become dust onto dust, which he knows very well, but he never will tell all his evil but must. I thought that was quite appropriate given that today theme feels like what's in Trump's head, death's in his head.
- [53:07]
Michael Wolff
That was your view. That was not my view.
- [53:10]
Joanna Cowles
Okay. Well, my view definitely is that Death has squeezed its way into his head under that strange, strange pompadour that he insists on doing every day.
- [53:22]
Michael Wolff
I would find Trump a more sympathetic, sympathetic figure if that were the case.
- [53:26]
Joanna Cowles
Well, I'm not saying I find him sympathetic. I think he's kind of thinking about how could he?
- [53:31]
Michael Wolff
No, no, but I'm saying he was. If, if Donald Trump, if you're right and Donald Trump is thinking about death, I think that makes him more sympathetic. It makes, you know, we all think about, about death. I don't think Donald Trump does, which makes him a different person from the rest of humanity, which I believe he is.
- [53:52]
Joanna Cowles
Okay, fair. Well, we'll agree, as they say, to disagree, but we will be back on Tuesday to talk more about what we think's inside Trump's head. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Please go and enjoy the rest of your weekend. And Michael, do you want to thank our team?
- [54:10]
Michael Wolff
Ryan, Heather. Max, the intern. John, Neil. And there's one more that I'm forgetting.
- [54:20]
Joanna Cowles
Rachel. Rachel Paso.
- [54:22]
Michael Wolff
Rachel. Rachel. Thank you, Rachel.
- [54:26]
Joanna Cowles
So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com specialoffer in the US there's a break in every 26 seconds. But when intruders step near Simplisafe home security steps stop.
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You what? Yeah, Great price.
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Joanna Cowles
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So there's no.
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I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it.
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