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- [00:00]
A
Almost each and every one of the senior Trump appointments, almost everybody in the, in the Senate, especially Republican senators, has had to reevaluate the votes that they had to reluctantly take responsibility for putting these lackeys, incompetents and completely unfit people in the jobs. And this has become a separate political issue for Trump. Among the central issues facing the Trump White House, the economy, the war, health care, is this, this new issue of lackeys and incompetence that surround him.
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B
Michael.
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A
Joanna.
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B
Michael, you've got army fatigues on. I feel like you're about to go down and take up arms.
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A
And in Cuba, you know, when I just saw myself, I thought, oh, my God, I look like a New York Times reporter or a 60 Minutes reporter getting ready to go into a war zone. The last thing I want to look like. But. But here I am.
- [01:13]
B
Okay. Well, I will say we had so many comments from people disagreeing with you about 60 Minutes. We have a lot of 60 Minutes fans who are also Daily Beast fans. Please subscribe to the Daily Beast. By the way, quick call to action, people. We're trying to get to 700,000 in the next couple of weeks, and you can help us get there as subscribers. But, yeah, it's true.
- [01:38]
A
60 minutes, unless people like 60 minutes. I happen to think it's a big bore, but it has a. Continues against all, to me, logic, taste and sensibility to have an immense audience. And that's the weird thing that's going on within cbs, that these people, that the people who now run CBS have chosen to basically throw that out.
- [02:07]
B
Well, what's interesting is it's actually gone up 9% at a time when legacy media audiences are all dissipating. 60 Minutes has held onto its audience.
- [02:18]
A
No. And that's because those are the last people who actually watch television. But.
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B
All right, but we digress, because today we're going to discuss Stephen Miller. We're going to discuss Jared Nivanka's private island in the Mediterranean. We're going to discuss Graham Platner, who's struggling up there, I think, a little bit in Maine. We're going to talk about the irs. We're going to talk about Bill Pulte. We have an entire list of characters. It's like a Broadway show feels like a Broadway show where they just come on stage left, exit stage right, and one is stranger than the next.
- [02:59]
A
Just before we start, I think, I think it is worth noting that at this very moment, they are getting ready to take Trump's name off of the Kennedy center, which Is, you know, I think a. I think worthy of a moment of silence.
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B
Just remind us how we got there.
- [03:26]
A
Well, he put his name on the Kennedy Center. That's how we got there. So it became the Donald J. Trump, John F. Kennedy center for the Performing Arts. You will recall that this was that the John F. Kennedy center for the Performing Arts. Congress set that up as the permanent memorial to John F. Kennedy, the only memorial actually in Washington to John F. Kennedy, which then Donald Trump took over and put his name on, but has now been ordered. The courts have stepped in and said, no, well, you can't just do that. And now they've ordered that the name be taken down. You know, it's interesting that I remember in the early, when he was first elected president, several of the buildings in New York which were Trump buildings, Trump branded buildings, that their co op boards or condo boards voted to take his name down. And he was apoplectic and then actually began to target for retribution people on these boards who had voted to have his name removed. So we haven't seen the end of this.
- [04:50]
B
Well, also remember, his name appeared on the side of the Kennedy center almost overnight. I mean, it had to be done in the day, but it was incredibly fast the way they did it. And I think in a. And I think I might have mentioned this on our last episode, but if you actually look at it very carefully, the font of Donald J. Trump is slightly smaller than the John Kennedy font, as if the person, actually the stonemason or whoever was chipping the names into the marble was making their own small protest. Anyway, it is to be stripped as we sit here, as you sit here in your army fatigues, ready for verbal war. Ready for verbal war. But one of the people that's instrumental to this current administration, even though he's not at the cabinet table, is someone that we haven't talked about for a bit, Stephen Miller. He slightly disappeared off the front pages, but of course, he's still an incredibly important character driving the ideology, such as there is any of Trump and certainly his immigration program.
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A
The Mephistophelian Stephen Miller.
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B
Mephistophelian Stephen Miller.
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A
Yes, yes.
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B
That's a big, big word. That's a big word for a Saturday. It's a very good word.
- [06:13]
A
But I think your point is an interesting one. He is really the only true ideologue inside of the Trump administration. Everybody else in the Trump administration, and this is, I think, actually across the board, their ideology is fundamentally whatever I can do to please Donald Trump. Stephen Miller is the one person who has focused on his issue, he's made an issue his own, and he has focused on it to an obsessive degree, which is not just immigration, but also deportation. And this may be, this is certainly one of the overriding, if not the overriding theme of the Trump administration. And it is largely on his shoulders, for better or worse. Worse being that it is turning increasingly unpopular, but it goes on. And even efforts to rein this in partly is difficult to rein in because of Stephen Miller. But just this week we've seen ICE has been, has been funded again. And, and there is this, this increasingly increasing effort to increase this increased deportations, send people back, essentially.
- [07:52]
B
Well, and it sounds as if the court system is completely overloaded. There was a piece in the New York Times, we're recording this on Saturday piece in the Times today, just saying that judges are completely overwhelmed by the number of people going through the court process that they're seeing job, lots of people, you know, sort of 18 people at a time to decide whether or not they should be deported or whether or not they've got a legal right to stay in the country. So the whole system is groaning with the number of people that are showing up in court.
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A
And.
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B
Well, I think it was 600,000 people were deported last year. I think that was the figure I saw.
- [08:31]
A
I mean, the interesting thing about Miller is as much as the policies, the person, I mean, everybody within the administration speaks of Stephen as well. He's on the spectrum. I mean, I've mentioned before one of the Trump aides during the campaign, referring to Stephen's masturbatory fantasies about immigration and deportation. And then there was a moment in which there was sort of pushback against Miller inside. And Trump, with a kind of, I guess you might say, twinkle in his eyes, says, you know, Stephen is the devil, and then added kind of, I suppose, for good measure or just because he said, you know, the devil is Jewish.
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B
What does that even mean?
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A
Well, it certainly sounds like an old fashioned anti Semitic remark to me. But of course, Stephen Miller is Jewish. And obviously one of the hard to unravel ironies of this, which his own family again and again has found difficult to unravel, is that he is from an immigrant family who came to the United States pursuing a better life and who achieved it.
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C
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B
So ICE has been somewhat off the front page, partly because of the war in Iran, partly because Kristi Noem got fired from running Homeland Security after two people got shot to death in Minneapolis. Renee, Nicole Good and Alex Pretty. The ICU veteran nurse Mark Wayne Mullen has taken over. How do we think he gets on with Stephen Miller? I mean, I can't imagine the two of them even sitting around a table together. What would they have to talk about? Except they do have things to talk about, which is deporting people.
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A
Yeah. No, I mean, I think Stephen Miller is his boss. I don't think that there's any. You would not take that job if you were unwilling to work with and essentially follow Stephen Miller's dictates and instructions.
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B
So ICE has been refunded. Does that mean that they doubled down on their efforts to remain as visible as they have been in cities? I mean, we remember them. You know, the National Guard was sent in, in both Chicago and in LA to facilitate the arrest of brown people, as you put it, to appease Stephen Miller and get illegal immigrants out. And they were supposed to focus on the worst of the worst, but in fact they just appeared to be creating photo opportunities which I guess play to their base.
- [13:44]
A
Well, I think that's been a political problem. That became a political problem. It became hugely unpopular. But that doesn't change, has not altered the policy direction. And matter of fact, that's even increased. It's now the emphasis is on deporting people. I mean, in effect they have been successful or at least a level or achieved A level of success in closing the border and the people coming into the country. Now the second phase is to get rid of the people who are already here, many of them, by the way, here legally, but the pressure on there. And again, this is a Stephen Miller thing to turn the country back to what it was. They speak in these kinds of terms, which is basically to turn it to a white country. I mean, the specter for all of these people is a majority non white country, which is obviously on the demographic horizon. So that's the goal here. And the goal is, and Stephen Miller, again, because he is this ideologue, is to do it now, do it extremely, do it radically, because this is the opportunity. And the opportunity in another two years may be gone. Do it now, save the country. And it's very cast in very much in those terms. Messianic. You know, I have, I, Stephen Miller, have a, have a singular purpose.
- [15:31]
B
Well, it looks like California is about to get its first Latino governor. Xavier Becerra is now ahead in the votes. I mean, California has a very odd system where it counts its votes, apparently after every other state, because if you vote in California and you send your vote in and it's postmarked the day of the election, they wait to count it. So it's been slow. And it's still unclear who's number two, whether or not it's Tom Steyer, the guy you said was a total creeper from your dealings with him, or Steve Hilton, who's running as a Republican. But Xavier Becerra is definitely out in front. And because of the way the voting works there in November, it looks like he will now assume the role as California's governor. So I don't know how Stephen Miller deals with that, given that he grew up in Santa Monica in Los Angeles.
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A
You know, I'm just hesitating here. Are we sure that he is the first Latino governor?
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B
Yeah, he will be.
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A
We're sure of that.
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B
That is everywhere. Yeah.
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A
This California voting thing is a, is a problem for the Democrats because it gives again, credence. I mean, it does seem incredibly disorganized, chaotic, uncertain, which fuels obviously, the Trump contention that there are all kinds of flaws in the electoral system. So again, and I think this is going to be a recurring theme as we approach, as we approach the midterms. Do the Democrats know what they are doing?
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B
Well, they managed to get enough support from Republicans to push back on the $1.8 billion slush fund for Trump.
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A
Yes, well, that's actually less. Less says less about the Democrats. Than it does say about the Republicans and their break from, their increasing break from Donald Trump. Certainly in the face of the oncoming midterms and, you know, I mean, also a break in the face of the obvious. I mean, how much is this? How much can you tolerate? And that's also another phase that we're going into as Trump pushes, doubles down, understands perhaps that this is, you know, his opportunity is going to pass. He is grabbing for more and more and more. Now, the interesting thing about the pushing back on the, on this $1.8 billion slush fund scam is that he kind of bent to that, but kept the piece of this that is most relevant to him personally. So he was never going to get any. The 1.8 billion was for someone else. I mean, yes, his supporters and people who came to his defense. And that would have been good if he could pay off his people.
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B
Wouldn't he have taken a chunk of it, though? Because he did at one point say that he wanted $230 million for the inconvenience of his.
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A
Well, I'm sure he would. I'm sure he would have tried. But actually, I think he said that he wasn't taking any. But that's.
- [19:04]
B
Oh, so we must believe him then.
- [19:07]
A
But the more important thing is what he's held onto, which is IRS immunity. The one thing we all would like, he has gotten. And there's an interesting way, I think, that you can see his entire political career as a, as a tax scam. I mean, his tax consequences have been hanging over him for years and years and years. And remember when he first got into politics, it's kind of der rigur to release your tax returns. No, he was not doing that. And under the premise that he was being audited, the longest audit in history. And I think you could see this. I have to run for office because I have this tax problem. How do we deal with this? Well, we make it a political issue, which is exactly what he did, obviously, with the four criminal indictments that occurred during the 2024 campaign. So. And he has now come successfully. How do I deal with this tax problem? Well, I've dealt with it.
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C
I won.
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B
It's astonishing. It's absolutely astonishing that he's been given immunity for anything to do with tax. And his family. Right. This extends to his sons.
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A
Yeah, exactly. So to the degree that Congress has pushed back about the 1.8 billion, you know, they've let him keep, keep the tax, the tax immunity, I mean, which smells like a deal was done.
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B
Which smells like A deal was done. Well, I wonder what Susie Wilds thinks about all this. Susie Wiles was the subject of a report in the Daily Mail that said that she was increasingly fed up by what someone had described as chaos in the White House, particularly pertaining to Bill Pulte, who's been put in charge of the Office of the Director of the National Intelligence. And we can come on to him in a moment.
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A
Well, just let me, just, before we go down this road, just let me push back on the Daily Mail in giving any credence to what's in the Daily Mail, of taking this seriously, on any level, of making this the source material for what we talk about. And by the way, just let me say that I have written for the Daily Mail. Just a God awful experience. They change everything. Whatever you say is reshaped, reformed, reformatted into Daily Mail truth. So it goes from the reasonable truth into something that at great length, from what the actual writer, me, understood the truth to be anyway. It's an appalling organization and a dangerous one because it's so big and its footprint becomes, its tabloid footprint becomes larger and larger.
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B
Okay, well, the reason I raised it is because actually what they're saying is something that you had predicted on this podcast, on this very podcast, which was that Susie Wiles would be done by November. Now, as we know, she has breast cancer and she's having treatment for it. But apparently, according to the Daily Mail, and you can take Michael's view on the Daily Mail, she was particularly infuriated by Bill Pulte and his appointment, his intelligence appointment, not least because apparently he was the person encouraging the AI slop of Trump presenting himself as Jesus, which created a lot of problems for the Republicans among Catholic voters. So she was. And again, according to the scurrilous Daily Mail, she was apparently encouraging Trump to dump Pulte. And of course, Trump has doubled down and appointed him to the office of the Director of National Intelligence, which is such a remarkable appointment that even Republicans have begun to revolt against it. John Thune said that there was absolutely no need to politicize this office. And this was a terrible appointment. And Thom Tillis, who of course is outgoing as a senator, said that Bill Pulty was not fit to hold the office.
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A
Well, I think putting aside the Daily Mail, you know, I think it is that Trump's low rent lackeys and incompetence now are challenging every Republican senator's credibility. So, you know, I think when this administration began, you kind of the new president gets the benefit of the doubt I want these people, the party, unless there's some egregious situation. Gates in Florida, who was the original selection as Attorney General, I think.
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B
Right. Matt Gaetz. We should remind people who had to
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A
be one of the few people who didn't make it, but everyone else basically made it.
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B
But can we just remind, let's just remind people why he didn't make it? Because there were accusations of him having sex with underage girls and doing cocaine and, and he was, he was going to be Trump's choice to be Attorney General of the United States.
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A
Yes, I, I mean, but and the, actually the other, the other point, and it may be the, the more important point is that Gates was incredibly unpopular on the Hill, so he had managed to alienate virtually a good part of the Republican caucus. So anyway, so he, he didn't, he didn't make it, but was, was, I think the only one who didn't, didn't make it.
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B
And Hegseth looked like he might not make it. And then Joni Ernst, who was anxious about him and a standout against, against him, crumbled and said she would support him.
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A
So what we've seen though, in that time, since then, in the year and a half plus, is almost each and every one of the senior Trump appointments, how do we characterize them? Las lackeys and incompetents? People who have almost everybody in the, in the Senate, especially Republican senators, has had to reevaluate the votes that they, that they've cast for these people and has, has had to reluctantly take responsibility for putting these lackeys, incompetents and completely unfit people in the job. So we know this now. That is a pattern that's there. And this has become a separate political issue for Trump. All of these people are lackeys and incompetents. And that is among the central issues facing the Trump White House. The economy, the war, health care. Is this, this new issue of lackeys and incompetence that surround him? So there's a backlash. People have to say, you know, we're going to be hold responsible for this Bill Pulte. I mean, how can we, how can we with any. How. I mean, I guess that's the question. You know, we're going to, how do we justify this?
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B
Well, and I have to say, because he's got absolutely zero background in intelligence. Zero. It's not like he's ever worked for the FBI. He wasn't even a junior officer in the CIA. I actually wanted to understand what they do. The officer of the Director of national intelligence oversees 18 agencies. So CIA, the FBI, he oversees the national surveillance or the National Reconnaissance Office, which oversees spy satellites. So do you remember when we saw all those images of Russian troops lining up against the borders of Ukraine? That comes out of that agency. And it was set up after 9, 11 to make sure that the different spy and intelligence agencies were sharing material because it turned out they'd been working in silos. But the idea that Bill Pulty would be in charge of spy satellites, it just beggars belief, even with Trump's standards. It just is an astonishing decision.
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A
Now, what Trump is saying is that he wants Bill Pulty in this job to fire everyone.
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B
He wants him to fire people. He wants him to, I think, re litigate the 2020 election. That seems to be important to him. And he said, I want you to do what Linda McMahon is doing to the Department of Education, which is basically, basically taking it out of existence.
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A
So at any rate, there is a real discussion that he may not be. He may not get the Senate approval that he needs. And that's alongside another appointment which is even more fundamental, which is Todd Blanche. So the President Trump has finally formally nominated Todd Blanche, who has been serving as the acting Attorney General, for the position of Attorney General, which obviously has to be approved by the Senate. And that's going to be an interesting moment. And the reason that Todd Blanch. And to recap, Todd Blanche came into the Trump orbit as his personal lawyer, brought in by Boris Epstein, who is Trump's personal legal adviser and probably the most significant legal voice in the administration, and to be blanched to be his defense lawyer in the criminal trials that he faced during the campaign. So that's the basis of their relationship. And then he came into the, into the Justice Department as the number two, and he did not come in as the number one, principally because he's a Democrat. And I've given some of this background before that Trump tried to do this during the first administration when he wanted to make Rudy Giuliani the Attorney general. And everybody said, what are you talking about? Rudy's pro abortion. He has a range of opinions that Republicans are never going to swallow. And then Trump proposed the same thing. Rudy would become the number two, and there would be a. Some somebody who could cover acceptable to Republicans as number one. Rudy rejected that. Todd Blanche did not. He is in that now that same position. And he has, and he has done his. His tenure in the Justice Department has been characterized by a willingness to do everything that, that Trump wants to actually have been his Personal lawyer as he. Instead of one of the, the, the, The. The most senior people in the, in the United States Justice Department.
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B
Well, instead of America's lawyer. Right. The DOJ is supposed to be America's Justice Department, not Donald Trump's personal Justice Department.
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A
Exactly, exactly so. And you would think that that would be an impediment to his. To getting approved by the Senate. It will probably not be. But I have a suggestion for the Democrats on how they can. How they should thread this needle, which is to say the Democrats will go into this and they will inquire of, of Blanche about all of the times he has mindlessly supported Donald Trump, and that will not bother any of the Republicans. But if the Democrats were to actually pursue what Blanche believed to drill down on his long history as a Democrat, that would have the effect, I believe, of making it very difficult for key Republicans to support him. Blanche is pro abortion. Just that alone.
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B
Well, that is an interesting strategy for them. That is a very interesting strategy for them. I mean, Trump is a strategy that
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A
they won't follow because they're. They.
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B
Well, we should ask, please, in the comments on YouTube, tell us what you think of Michael's idea. Actually, this is a very interesting strategy for them. I mean, I think Trump understands that Bill Pulty may not get through the Senate because he's appointed him acting, which still gives him 210 days, which is a lot of time to do a lot of damage. And, and Trump seems to understand that. He said, I want him to get on with firing people, knowing that he may not get through the Senate for confirmation. Intriguing suggestion for Todd Blanche. I wonder what will happen. That's a very interesting idea for him, for the Democrats, that they focus on Todd Blanche's own Democrat background. I mean, Pam Bondi, in her conversations last week, threw Todd Blanche under the bus, blamed him for the chaos around the Epstein files, didn't she? What was her design in doing that, do you think?
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A
Well, I think she's pissed off. I mean, I do think that she had relatively little authority within the Justice Department, that it was Todd Blanche, and I think it was on Todd Blanche acting on the President's. Under the President's direction. Bury the Epstein files.
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B
Bury the Epstein files. So while Republican senators are expressing some opposition in D.C. it seems as if Albanians, not a country we've worried about, Albanians, are marching against the Trumps. They are marching against Jared and Ivanka's plans to develop an island, Cezanne, off the coast of Albania, which has beautiful beaches. And they, of course, want to Turn it into a luxury resort. Here we have a clip of Ivanka Trump explaining what she wants to do. Just before we play it, I want you to pay attention to her voice as well as the content of what she's saying.
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D
Well, it's an unbelievable, beautiful, 1400 hectare private island in the middle of the Mediterranean. We were on a friend's boat and we stopped for a swim. Effectively, that's how we found it. We swam to the island, we went on a hike, barefoot all the way up to the top, and we were just captivated. And it stayed with us ever since. And over the course of many years, we developed the opportunity to help realize its potential and transform it, but with a lot of restraint and care because the land is so beautiful.
- [36:31]
B
Ivanka Trump as barefoot buccaneer Discovering islands. Michael discovering islands. I mean, what is this? But I just want to draw attention to her voice before we then discuss the remarkable process they've been. And I don't know if we can show pictures of just the size of the protests, but they've been huge in Tirana, the capital of Albania, against this development. But I used to know Ivanka Trump a little bit. She was a character on the New York scene. When I was in fashion magazines, we would write about her. She had a variety of fashion brands. You know, she had a jewelry brand, she had shoes, she had clothes. And her voice has changed completely. It reminds me of when Margaret Thatcher was running for leader of the Conservative Party and they gave her voice lessons. They said, we have to drop your voice. You have to speak in a much more controlled. Which she did. And I feel like Ivanka Trump. The same things happen to her. It sounds as if her voice is AI.
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A
It sounds like a human. Let me go deeper on that. And this is something my wife Victoria has said for many years now, that she actually goes. There's a progression here. She begins with almost a Valley Girl voice, moves to a Disney princess voice, and now moves to this very. A stilted AI voice. And you can go back. There's a filmmaker who actually used to be Ivanka's former boyfriend, Jamie Johnson, who made a documentary, this was probably 15 years ago, called Born Rich.
- [38:19]
B
I remember that documentary.
- [38:21]
A
I mean, it's actually fantastic. And it's just about. He manages to get these rich kids talking in this unself conscious but kind of horrifying way about their experience as being rich kids. And there is Ivanka, total Valley girl.
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B
Total Valley girl. Well, she doesn't sound like a Valley girl now. She sounds like a cross between AI And Margaret Thatcher, and it's very controlled and she speaks through a smile the whole time, which she's obviously been told makes their words sound more palatable, perhaps. But she and Jarrod, as you heard, were on a friend's yacht. They, you know, with great intrepid explorer zeal, swam from the yacht. They found this piece of paradise. Barefoot, Michael, barefoot on a beach. They explored it, whatever it is, 1400 hectares. 1600 hectares, and decided it obviously stayed with them and they've come back to develop it with great care for the environment. Except it turns out that there are bulldozers tearing through this natural reserve which is a home to thousands of flamingos. So Albanians have taken to the streets holding plastic flamingos, which actually, as a protest tool is quite effective. We can see some of the. The posters here. American Nepo baby buying protected areas like shoes and high class dresses in the shopping center. Anyway, there have been protests at the site, which is now being developed, and private security and protesters getting into fights. So who knows who's going to end up either buying a timeshare here or going to stay at a sort of White Lotus style hotel. But this is the latest of Jared Nivanka's real estate dreams. And there's also echoes of Cuba here because, as you know, Albania was for the longest time a communist country. I mean, it was so repressive, it actually broke links with Russia and China and it was much like Cuba obsessed that it was going to be invaded. So there were concrete bunkers absolutely everywhere. But they do have a strong cultural history of protest. I mean, that's who Skanderburg was in the 15th century, fighting off the Ottoman Empire. So it's a fascinating country. It joined NATO in the 90s, I think, when communism collapsed there. And it's been desperate to get into the tourist market. I mean, it's in the tourist market in a big way, but it's gone from being Cuba.
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A
So the Albanian leadership is supporting Jared and Ivanka. A big surprise.
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B
Yes, of course, of course he is. Eddie Rama is supporting them in saying that they'll do environmental studies and ensure the protection of the flamingo.
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C
But let's.
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A
So the question, and maybe the answer is obvious, obvious. Why would they proceed in such a tone deaf fashion? And the answer is because they are tone deaf, of course. I mean, but. But are they? Can they really be. Can two people really be that tone deaf? Yes. Answer.
- [41:46]
B
Yes, I think you have your answer. For anyone who ever wants to just remind themselves of the continuing gap between the rich and the poor, I Urge you to spend some time on Ivanka's Instagram account. Nelle Scovell has become a savant of Ivanka's Instagram and social media. And if ever there's some kind of violence or something really bad for her father going on in the country, Ivanka manages to post a picture of herself, usually paddleboarding in a tiny bikini, looking completely fabulous. She must spend an enormous amount of time in the gym.
- [42:29]
A
I would just like to recommend my own book, Fire and Fury, in which Steve Bannon goes to town on Jared Ivanka. I mean, it's really a dismantling that he should well, be remembered for.
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B
Well, and worth reminding people that Jared's fund, Affinity Partners, is financed with over $2 billion from the Gulf just after the first administration. And I don't know how much money he's raised in this second administration, but he's scouting for opportunities, Michael. He's scouting for opportunities.
- [43:17]
A
Yeah, no, I get actually a steady stream of people asking me, do you have Jared's number? I want to call him. I have a good investment idea for him.
- [43:30]
B
Perhaps you should go in as advisor to.
- [43:32]
A
No, my revenge. My revenge is I hand it out.
- [43:36]
B
So what do you think of what's happening with Graham Platner up in Maine? So let's just remind people for, for those who aren't following the story quite as closely though, it really has dominated the news this week. Graham Platner is the Marine. He's an oyster fisherman. He's running as the Democrat candidate for Senate with the hopes of overTurning Susan Collins 30 year run as the Senator from Maine. One of the senators from Maine.
- [44:06]
A
And let's add that if the Democrats have any hope of taking a majority of the Senate, they need this seat. They can't do it without this seat.
- [44:19]
B
And Susan Collins feels vulnerable, though. Susan Collins always feels vulnerable and she always manages to squeak back in.
- [44:29]
A
She looks vulnerable too.
- [44:31]
B
Well, she looks and she sounds vulnerable and her voting record is vulnerable. Anyway, the New York Times on Thursday produced a piece with various comments from Platner's ex girlfriends suggesting they had relations. Relationships which were unsettling and emotionally wrenching. Which makes me think of almost all the relationships I've had. Some of them were definitely unsettling and a lot of them were emotionally wrenching. And they portrayed him as a toxic guy. As a guy who's come back from four tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, who was drinking heavily and who, who sounded frankly a bit paranoid at times. All things that he appears to have addressed. He said he's I'm not a perfect guy.
- [45:24]
A
I mean, there's the language of these allegations which, which we should go to. But then, then also begin with this, this kind of, you know, fundamental conflict, that there is a clear desire movement for authentic candidates who wear their flaws on their sleeves or tattooed on their chest, as it were, as opposed to the anodyne, professional, impersonal candidates who we now regularly vote against.
- [46:05]
B
So it's perhaps best represented, actually by Kamala Harris, who spoke in generalities. And you never could quite understand, understand what she was standing for, except she was against Donald Trump.
- [46:19]
A
No, but I think that there are a lot of. That's who the Democrats tend to, tend to produce. So now they're producing this other kind. There seems to be a market or a demand for this other kind of candidate. But at the same time, we seem to be demanding that their personal biographies be traditionally sanitized or traditionally clean cut and repressed.
- [46:51]
B
And he's proving complicated for the Democrats. The Democratic establishment, led by Chuck Schumer actually initially endorsed Janet Mills, the governor of Maine. She proved a tough opponent to Donald Trump in one of the governor's meetings. He went after her over transfer kids in sports. And she, she, you know, he tried to bait her and she just said, I'll be following the law, Mr. President, I'll be following the law. She's a popular governor, but she'll be 80 if she gets, if she goes into the Senate. Which is why Graham Platner decided to stand.
- [47:28]
A
And she's a traditional political figure, a professional.
- [47:31]
B
Right.
- [47:32]
A
As is Susan Collins, as is Chuck Schumer, as is, as are the people who, who are clearly not at this point in politics, Republican and Democratic politics, but also Democratic politics ascendant. And we don't, you know, I think we don't know what the Democrats, anyway, don't know what to do with them on the Republican side. They don't seem to care, you know, so you.
- [47:59]
B
Well, in fact, it's almost qualifying in the Republican Party. I mean, yesterday I did an interview with Farrah Thomason, who's one of Our correspondents in D.C. she wrote a piece in our political newsletter, the Swamp, just listing the number of, as we call them, pervy Republicans, literally people who've spent time in jail for rape and all sorts of people.
- [48:25]
A
Let's not mix this up with Platner. I mean, nobody is accusing him of doing anything illegal. He's been accused of, you know, actually, I can't find any other more specific accusation than of being a bad date. So.
- [48:46]
B
And Only by some women. Other women said, oh, he was great. He was fun, he was warm. I think there was some recognition that he was traumatized from having come back from four tours. He had ptsd.
- [49:01]
A
No. And this. So this becomes not only a problem for Democrats, but it's specifically a problem for Democratic media. So the New York Times, I think, can fairly be called Democratic media. And the idea to the media, idea to believe all women instead of being skeptical of everybody, becomes a news category. So if you have a woman who then is willing to publicly say, describe. Publicly describe a political candidate's behavior as unsettling, then that becomes a news story. And whether that is anything exceptional in life at all, it is now a news story category.
- [49:54]
B
Well, and it's also interesting that this story has sort of moved from what was clearly opposition research to now focusing on his character. Is he strong enough? Is he a good enough character to represent people in the Senate? John Fetterman, who is a senator from Pennsylvania, seemed to think he wasn't.
- [50:21]
A
John Fetterman seems not to be. I mean, John Fetterman is another thing. And there is a lot of worry within the Democratic Party that this. That this new desire for atypical candidates is producing the John Fettermans of this world. I mean, John Fetterman, there's obviously something wrong with the guy. And we know that he was. He had a stroke. He had. I mean, everything would seem to be disqualifying about John Fetterman, but not least
- [50:50]
B
that he seems to be a Republican.
- [50:53]
A
He seems to be a Republican, Yes. On top of that, at any rate, the Democrats don't know how to process this.
- [51:05]
B
I will say I interviewed Graham Platner for probably about 45 minutes to an hour earlier this year. You can watch the podcast on the Daily Beast channel. And we talked about his Reddit post, his sort of unsavoury Reddit post, which were clearly, I think, posted when he was drunk. And he talked about, you know, don't judge me on my worst day on the Internet. Judge me on what I want to get done for people in the Senate. Judge me on who I am now. If we are not allowed to allow people to change, then who are we as a society? His wife has stood by him. There were also some texts that emerged that he'd been sending to women, highly sexualized texts that he was sending to women shortly after he'd gotten married. And his wife said she knew about them. In fact, it was her that had told one of the campaign aides about them. In confidence, of course. But the campaign aide then left the campaign and then bleated about the texts. But she said, you know, we've had counseling. Our marriage is stronger than ever. When I interviewed him, he was actually in Norway trying to get IVF, because it's much cheaper to get it there than it is to get it in America. So clearly they're thinking of having a family. Should we care what the wife thinks in a situation like this?
- [52:24]
A
Well, I think it's a broader. We just don't know how to evaluate these people anymore, people who are running for office. It used to be that we knew what a politician was, and a politician functioned between. Very clear constraints. And now things have broken wide open. We have. The world is increasingly dominated by what might reasonably be called crazy people. And so that would seem to be a genuine concern. How do you tell if someone is a fucking nutcase? And I don't know the answer to that. You know, you want real people. You want. We want real people. We want authentic people, but real people. Authentic people might be crazy, but also,
- [53:25]
B
this is all against the backdrop of. Look who's in the White House. A man with more than 25 accusations of sexual abuse against him. You know, this is. It's. So there's such cognitive dissonance, to use a Psych 101 phrase, but there really is cognitive dissonance here. And also, I do think you want people in politics who fought in wars so we don't end up in wars like we are now. And against all this is the backdrop of we are stuck in the war with Iran, with a president who got himself out of service for five times.
- [54:07]
A
Yeah, I don't want people in politics who have fought in wars. I think that that's ridiculous. That's.
- [54:14]
B
You know, I'm sorry, but two thirds. Two thirds of American presidents serve the country. Two thirds of American presidents. We've had generals. We've had all sorts of people. I think you want to mix the people who understand the appalling consequences of going to war. Otherwise, you walk into wars, you think they're very easy to get out of. They're not. And we're literally stuck in one now.
- [54:38]
A
Well, first thing, I couldn't disagree more. I don't think that gets us anything. Actually. You're just as liable, perhaps more liable, to get people who support wars. You get hegseth. You know, people who go into the military, come out of the military, except for a very. A kind of a rare few as supporters of the military. That's what. That's what Being in the military is you are turned into a soldier. You don't then turn out of being a soldier. And a soldier does what a soldier does.
- [55:14]
B
Well, George W. Bush famously got out of serving. Donald Trump famously got out of serving. They've both taken us into wars which have been terrible for America.
- [55:25]
A
Yeah. And who would you say is a president who went to war other than since, actually, who has been to war since John F. Kennedy?
- [55:41]
B
Well, let's think. Why don't we focus on the big wars, 1917 and the Second World War.
- [55:51]
A
What's your point there?
- [55:54]
B
My point is that they were wars worth fighting, not the Iraq war and not the current war in Iran.
- [56:01]
A
Yeah, I think we're at a historical divide there, that this is not relevant to any issue at this point, at any rate. I don't think. I think that that's. I mean, this is certainly a digression, but I certainly don't think that being a soldier qualifies you or necessarily qualifies you to be a politician in the 21st century.
- [56:29]
B
Well, I'm not saying it qualifies you. I'm just saying that I think it's very helpful to have a mix of people in the Senate or in Congress that have actually had to fight and know the terrible costs it incurs.
- [56:41]
A
Okay. And I'm saying that most of those people, I think, and this is obviously a very casual focus group, most of those people actually support the military, support more investment in the military, support more war, support more aggression.
- [57:01]
B
I don't think it's true that they support more war or more aggression.
- [57:07]
A
Well, since neither of us knows actually if it is true or not true, I think we probably should back out of this.
- [57:16]
B
All right. Do you think. Let me ask you a different question. Do you think Graham. Does Graham Platner survive as a Democrat candidate for Senate in Maine? And if so, does he blow the opportunity against Susan Collins? Because you know who's been bad for women? Susan Collins. Her party and her support of the various conservative judges has stopped. You know, overturned Roe versus Wade. Susan Collins supported the Hyde Amendment, which restricted federal funding for abortion. That's who's been bad for women here.
- [57:51]
A
I think the answer to the question is that probably Graham Platner does survive. I mean, if only because there is no alternative. The primary is this Tuesday. It's imminent. I don't think there's anything that can be done between now and then, even if you wanted to do something. And then that gives him a pretty long Runway to make his case.
- [58:16]
B
I suspect he gets A huge vote of support. I mean, it'd be very interesting to. We'll know by next Thursday, when we're back on Thursday. We won't know on Tuesday, but I bet there's an outpouring of support for him. I think people are sick of this sort of, of the sort of over policing of candidates.
- [58:42]
A
No, that's an interesting thing. So that, that would be a vote against the Democratic establishment, against the media and how it treats these issues. And that would be. I was going to say that would be positive, but I don't know if it's positive. I mean it's just where. It's just what it is is the dynamic.
- [59:04]
B
But Janet Mills is still on the ballot. She ran out of money, of support, so she basically suspended her campaign. But she didn't end her campaign and she's still on the ballot. So people can still vote for her. No.
- [59:16]
A
So that will be a measure she won't win. But if she, if her numbers are more impressive than they ought to be for someone who is no longer running, that would be a, a danger signal from Graham Platner.
- [59:32]
B
And again, it's really about that generational change in the Democratic Party.
- [59:38]
A
Yeah. And I think it's not just a generational change. It's a change in the expectations we have of what a politician should be. I mean, it'll be interesting just the. In New York, the Kennedy kid or the Schlossberg, the Kennedy Schlossberg kid who is running. That will also be, I think another element in this now. I mean, that's going to be. It's curious because he comes with the Kennedy name, which at this point should be. Is kind of a mixed blessing, I would think. But he comes from outside politics. He's never done anything in politics. He appears never to done anything in any professional walk of life. I mean, he's basically a social media presence. But having said that, he says he's
- [60:31]
B
a content creator and that that's a new kind of job. And people of your generation, Michael, don't understand that that could be. Well, in fact you are also a content creator and a social media phenom.
- [60:46]
A
Perish the thought. But, but on top of that, actually he's incredibly well spoken. So most politicians, which is also odd, are not well spoken, they're over rehearsed, they speak in someone else's words, they manage to communicate nothing. He is very direct in the social media form, very personal and appealing.
- [61:21]
B
Well, he's currently, I think there are three of them with roughly the same percentage. The Three candidates that are running basically neck and neck are Alex Borros, George Conway, and Mr. Schlossberg, who we've invited on the Daily Beast podcast, but he's refused to come so far anyway. Or he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I want to come. And then he just doesn't. So either his team together or whatever.
- [61:49]
A
No, and that's. That's a thing. I mean, I, I, that. I mean, the New York Times wrote a story in which. In which, I mean, the basic charge against him was that he. Was that he naps a lot.
- [62:03]
B
He naps a lot like the president. The president's been napping again. He napped Wisconsin.
- [62:10]
A
Yeah.
- [62:10]
B
No.
- [62:11]
A
The New York Times has been curiously vociferous in its opposition to Jack Schlossberg, which, again, to me, might be a reason to vote for Jack Schlossberg.
- [62:26]
B
I realize I'm not in his district, actually. It's District 12, and I live downtown, and I'm just below him. So Dan Goldman is actually my congressman.
- [62:37]
A
Another traditional, Another imperiled person in this.
- [62:42]
B
Well, and another scion of a billionaire. He's from the Levi Strauss family. 23rd of June is the primary for that, so that'll be an interesting one. We should keep our eye on. Well, I feel like we've had an exhaustive. We've had an exhaustive array of subjects. We've had a couple of disagreements. I know we're going to get negative comments about my comment about Kamala Harris because people don't like it when we criticize the Dems. But I think it was a campaign that really didn't have a message other than let's get Donald Trump out. He's weird. They're all weird.
- [63:20]
A
Listen, that was a terrible campaign. She's a terrible candidate. How she came to be the candidate is still a mystery. And, and she lost. And appallingly, she seems ready to try again. But.
- [63:36]
B
Well, I mean, to be fair to her, we should point out she only had 107 days and that she felt clearly very compromised by Joe Biden's endorsement of her and her inability to separate herself from him and his policies. That, I think is what felled her in the end. And the fact that Trump had a sense of humor and did some gimmicks at the end and was a good campaigner.
- [64:01]
A
I don't think that that's true. And I think 107 days to run for the President of the United States is not something that should be sneered at. You had your chance, the ultimate chance to run for The President of the United States. 107 days worth of chance and you blew it. Goodbye.
- [64:19]
B
I wonder if Donald Trump is still angry over the fact that he was beaten by Joe Biden and that two people. Of course he is. Of course he is, because. Yeah, yeah, you're quite right. But I wonder if he thinks about the fact that he managed to beat two women. So he beat Hillary Clinton in 2016, Kamala Harris in 2024. And I wonder if, in his mind, it doesn't quite compute, about as seriously as beating a man, which actually he hasn't done.
- [64:52]
A
Yeah, I haven't thought about. I will think about this. A subject I want to come back to, and we don't have to do it now, but I think it's a central subject is Ukraine. And I think this era in which we obsess about Donald Trump will pass and Trump will be a relative footnote to the war in Ukraine. That is the big subject of our time, the turning point in our time. And I think, and this would wound Donald Trump to his core, to say that Zelensky will be the person we will remember much more than Donald Trump.
- [65:45]
B
That's so interesting. And of course, Congress this week voted to give an $8 billion loan to Ukraine and I think 1.8 billion. So actually, the number of the slush fund.
- [65:56]
A
Overriding Trump.
- [65:57]
B
Right, overriding Trump and 1.8 billion, same number as the slush fund in cash to buy or in armaments. Anyway, you're right. And of course, Donald Trump, what did he promise? He promised he was going to end the Ukraine, Russia war the first day he came into office. And where are we now, a year and a half later? We're nowhere near it.
- [66:20]
A
Do you remember this? And just to point out that Ukraine, I mean, an incredibly bloody, horrid war in all aspects. I mean, it's one of those kinds of wars that we kind of thought would never, never be fought again and has now been fought for the past, well, four years longer than the Second World War went on. It appears now that they have, you know, that they certainly have held fought Russia to a standstill. No one ever thought that this would be. Would be possible. So, you know, I mean, I just think that this is the thing, the
- [67:22]
B
issue of our time that we're all
- [67:24]
A
ignoring and Trump, and to go back to that, and I think we should always come back to that, of his dismissal of this, I'll solve this war in a day. And I think it's reasonable again and again to ask why he is not held to account for these either profound acts of hubris and arrogance or utter misunderstanding of
- [67:56]
B
what's at issue and utter incompetence. Perhaps Bill Pulty can help him once he settles into his chair at the Office of National Intelligence.
- [68:12]
A
Bill Pulte.
- [68:15]
B
Okay, okay, we have a news flash. Before everybody starts writing in saying I was wrong, Michael would like me to point out that he was right. I was wrong. There has of course been a previous Latino governor of California, but it was back in 1879, Romaldo Pacheco. So I'm sorry about that. But we'll certainly have our first Latino governor for 150 years in California if he wins. If he wins,
- [68:52]
A
we could have a Republican governor.
- [68:55]
B
We're not going to have a Republican governor. Big thanks to our production team, Ryan Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus. So the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.