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Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money
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side to every story.
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Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now@bloomberg.com Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
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I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
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Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com Fox
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News is now streaming live on Fox One. When it matters most, turn to the voices you trust. We go beyond the headlines, bringing you the stories you won't hear anywhere else. Live coverage, sharp analysis, real perspective at home or on the go. Stay connected when it counts. Stream Fox News on Fox 1 download today. He often says terrible things about his children, including Don Jr. In one of his frequent riffs in the past has has been, I really regret giving him my name.
- [01:31]
A
No. Oh yes, that is fairly damning.
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B
All of these, you know, his children in their own way are kind of, I mean, certainly the son's kind of broken by their relationship with him.
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A
Is Don Jr. Competent?
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B
Of course not. He has spent his life as his father's lackey. He's spent his life in a business that is of very little consequence except to support his father. Gives me the shivers.
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A
Michael, Joanna, so we're going to do a special episode today because one of the things that we've been thinking about a lot is what does succession do look like after Trump? I mean, we had the Viktor Orban election last week. He conceded quickly. Trump is coming to the end of certainly his cognitive stage.
- [02:38]
B
Well, let's also put in terms of strictly a political timeline. He is shortly to be, in a very formal sense, a lame duck. He cannot run again. No matter he huffs and puffs and whatever he says, he can't run again. Also, he's about to be 80 years old and he enters that period which all presidents enter in their second term, if they get a second term in which power starts to ebb because, because other people start to step up one's party begins to think beyond the current presidency and to hope that there will be Another presidency. And if you are a second termer, especially in the second half of your second term, you're kind of toast.
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A
You're kind of toast. He is kind of toast.
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B
But Trump is a different sort of person here.
- [03:53]
A
Well, he's a sourdough. He's a very strange sourdough.
- [03:56]
B
Yes. Well, that's true. But he is not like, I mean, George W. Bush obviously just wanted to go off and be done with it all. Obama saw himself as, actually, I don't know what Obama sees himself as, but some.
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A
As a celebrity.
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B
As a celebrity, you know, Bill Clinton thought, okay, I, you know, I can't, you know, I'm not ready to let go of this. So I've got to invent some, some, some international thing that will give me not only profile, but money. I need money.
- [04:34]
A
Money and lifestyle. Well, I think both money and lifestyle apply to Obama and Clinton. Right.
- [04:40]
B
But Trump just wants to continue to be Donald Trump. And the catch here is that it's going to be very hard for him to continue to beat Donald Trump if he's not the president or running for president. So that's what's going to start to be in his head. How does he find a successor or potential successor who will work, who will complement what he wants, which is his own continuing purpose and grandeur and identity and celebrity and power?
- [05:25]
A
Well, arguably, he's not going to want anybody then, or he's going to want the Republicans to lose so that he can say, I am your savior.
- [05:36]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. Working this out logically is that whoever is the nominee and he will hobble anyone trying to be the nominee, but whoever is the nominee, he will then undermine. They will lose, the Democrat will win. Donald Trump will go back to Mar A Lago and yet be the once and future president. But before we get to that point, let's start to work out what happens over the next, really beginning after November, beginning now. I mean, everybody is already sort of trying to clearly pivoting, clearly putting themselves into the positioning themselves so well, and
- [06:32]
A
he's already positioning them against each other. This is something he's always done, but we saw him put in, you know, after J.D. vance failed to come back from Pakistan with any progress on the talks with Iran, Marco Rubio was up last week to go in and pick up where J.D. vance left off. So Trump loves playing people off against each other. It's a way of managing power. And now they're all going to be thinking, thinking, how do I get the big job? Who is my base? How do I get The Trumpers on my side.
- [07:08]
B
Right. And how do I survive Donald Trump and in these last years, as he turns more and more unpopular, if not toxic, if not anathema to. To a whole new section of voters.
- [07:29]
A
Right. Or if we use the New York Times word, erratic, because he may support one person one day and then another person another day. And who knows if his badge of approval is good or bad for candidates.
- [07:44]
B
Yeah.
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A
No.
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B
And let's think about who would Donald Trump want for his own purposes, because that will be a key factor, I think, in who gets this nomination. And it may work actually against that person, but it's going to be a factor. So who do we have? Who's our 2028 Republican Party lineup?
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A
Well, I've heard to say it's a rum bunch, Michael. It is a rum bunch.
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B
It's Vance. Certainly it's Vance.
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A
Rubio.
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B
Rubio already set up. So Vance and Rubio are already set up. Is Hegseth. You know, I would say Hegseth in
- [08:34]
A
his own mind is definitely rather.
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B
And then the interesting, I mean, the interesting wild card, and there are a number of wild cards, is Tucker Carlson. And. And we ought to talk about that because I have some insight into that because I have directly discussed this subject with him.
- [08:53]
A
Okay, well, definitely Tucker also RFK Jr completely.
- [08:59]
B
I mean, that is in there, too. I have some firsthand experience. And. Clearly this is his. A singular opportunity.
- [09:17]
A
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- [10:56]
B
This is not. This is not new.
- [10:59]
A
No, we haven't actually seen as much of him writing about himself. What she does in the diary is weave his life through the book, but she comes back to the diaries where he's reflecting on his.
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B
This is a New York Post reporter, right?
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A
This is a New York Post reporter,
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B
which I would completely discount anything there. These are. This is. This is not. These are not serious people. These are not knowledgeable people. They are toxic people.
- [11:26]
A
Okay. Well, what I will say is that she uses chunks of the diary which make him to be an extremely interesting, complicated, tragic, flawed character. But what you get is a lot of his reflection on his own behavior, motivations and struggles. You mentioned Tucker, who has a media base. There's also Marjorie Taylor Greene, who I think. I mean, she says she's recommending Tucker. I think in her mind, she sees herself as.
- [11:58]
B
No, I mean, it's kind of. Kind of extraordinary. And you see by. By getting out of quitting Congress, she has magnified her media presence. I mean, you cannot go. You cannot go a social media moment without encountering mtg.
- [12:23]
A
Well, MTG is definitely going to be a candidate, I think, and probably thinks of herself as. As a vice presidential candidate to Tucker because she seems to be backing him. Then, of course, there is another outlier, but then they're all a bit outlierish. Don Jr. Do you think Don Jr. Could be a candidate? Does he see himself as a candidate? Does Donald Trump see him as a candidate?
- [12:48]
B
The question is, would he be useful to Donald Trump Sr. And maybe.
- [12:57]
A
Well, it'd be useful for the grift.
- [12:58]
B
Well, it'd be useful for the grift. But let's think about this in terms of the. Well, the grift is part of the legacy. The grift is part of. And think of it in terms of Donald Trump Sr. Remaining Donald Trump Sr. The most important person in the Republican Party, the person with the most. The most significant voice outside of the White House or. And arguably when Joe Biden was the president, Donald Trump still was the most significant voice, if not in the White House, certainly hovering over the White House.
- [13:44]
A
Well, as far as we know, that feels like that would be the main list. Is there anybody we've left out?
- [13:50]
B
I would add Steve Bannon to that list. This is Steve Bannon.
- [13:54]
A
Steve Bannon as president. Yes.
- [13:56]
B
I Mean, well, Steve Bannon as a candidate, remember, there is reason to run for president, which is not necessarily winning the nomination, no less the presidency.
- [14:12]
A
Right. It's to influence positioning statements, it's to make money, it's to get more attention, it's to build fame.
- [14:20]
B
It's an opportunistic move. It's one of the great opportunistic moves of, of our day and age. And to lose is, you know, to lose you just is.
- [14:33]
A
To win is still to win, actually.
- [14:35]
B
And, you know, when Donald Trump set out on this unimaginable journey that we are now all on, he certainly did not expect to win.
- [14:47]
A
No. Well. And the opening of Fire and Fury has him incredulous that he's won. And Melania is crying, and I think Rupert Murdoch is on the phone crying, and he's also incredulous. And his tragedy is, of course, that he wanted to make a president, and the president he made was Donald Trump, who he hates. All right, so should we start with J.D. vance? I'm sure obviously there will be other characters and maybe Kristi Noem. Does Kristi Noem emerge with Corey Lewandowski as a kind of, you know, sheepdog, nudging her into the presidential candidate corner?
- [15:22]
B
Well, if so, that would. I think that there are some things too risible even for our time. And that might be one.
- [15:32]
A
I wonder. I mean, you know, it's not disqualifying to grab em by the pussy. So the fact that she spent quarter of a billion dollars on an advertising campaign means everybody knows who she is.
- [15:45]
B
No, absolutely. But I can't imagine that one a failure possibly of my imagination. I mean, as so many of these, these people have been.
- [16:00]
A
Well, none. We wouldn't have predicted that any of these people, especially RFK Jr would make it to the cabinet, but there they are. So they're obviously all seeing, you know, what is the phrase, what does a senator say to himself when he looks at himself in the mirror? Good morning, Mr. President. Yeah, good morning, Mr. President. So I think we have cabinet ministers who are also, also going to. Mr. President. Let's start with J.D. vance.
- [16:27]
B
Well, you know, I mean, J.D. vance, I think it's almost a little tragic because he is set up to be the successor to Donald Trump. And that's tragic on two fronts. Donald Trump most likely will not let anyone be his successor. Number one, but number two, J.D. vance, whom who might at some point, and Jay Davis is 41 years old and he might at some point be a seasoned enough politician, but he clearly is not. Now, he clearly is a kind of. He always seems at somewhat at a loss, somewhat, you know, somewhat transparent in his efforts to please whoever he has to please. Somewhat callow in. How he's presented, how he presents himself. It's a kind of, you know, you kind of look away when you see J.D. vance.
- [17:35]
A
Why? Because you feel he's just selling himself out?
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B
I think you do. You feel sorry for him. You feel him flailing.
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A
You feel him flailing. I mean, I can't help wonder what the conversations are that he has at night in bed with Ushe Vance, if they still sleep in the same bed about what on earth is happening? Does he still have access to the part of J.D. vance that said Trump is America's Hitler?
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B
I think all of these things. Yeah. I mean, he. God.
- [18:14]
A
Or has he just completely swallowed the Kool Aid and now he really believes in Trump or so transparent?
- [18:20]
B
Well, that's easy. Nobody really believes in Trump. I mean, nobody who has firsthand access to him. You see what he is. And everybody does see and everybody has. I mean, JD Vance is not a stupid man. He has an amount of clarity. What he does with that, however, is another story. You know, he's been thrust into this position because of Silicon Valley money, primarily because of Silicon Valley money. And now it's like, okay, maybe I'll get to be president. I mean, it's literally looking the gift horse in the mouth. But he just is. He's not good enough. He's not good enough and people don't like him.
- [19:14]
A
Right. He's not a retail politician.
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B
I mean, everybody is suspicious. Everybody has his number.
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A
Everybody has his number. But I can't help wondering, will he end up just writing a book about this whole experience and he will have seen Trump for what he is, or does he, as you say, he's 41. Does he take 10 years out and then make some money and then come back?
- [19:44]
B
No. Well, I think whatever. I mean, he has to play this now. Here's what's going on in his mind. How do I play this to my best long term advantage? Is it better for me to not get the nomination and let somebody else fail and go down? Is it better for me to get the nomination and lose the presidency? Do I really have a shot at becoming the president if I get the nomination? And what's the barring becoming president, what's the next best thing in terms of his long term future?
- [20:29]
A
And I can't help feeling as well that you know, so much of what Trump did last week where he's imagining that He's Jesus on AI and he's going after the Pope is to do with the fact that J.D. vance has a book coming out about how he returned to the church. It's called Communion. Obviously, his first book, Hillbilly Elegy, did very well. I'm sure this one will do well, too. And you can't help wondering if people, if literally the reason that Trump picked a fight with the Pope was to stick it to J.D. vance.
- [21:07]
B
Good one. That's a good one, I think.
- [21:12]
A
All right, so what about Marco, Little Marco, little Marco Rubio, who's walking around in the shoes that Trump bought for him, which are clearly several sizes too big, and so he's sort of shuffling awkwardly.
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B
Well, you know, this is. Marco Rubio has run for president before. Unsuccessfully. He's hooked. Probably the person most identified now with this. Well, the three people most identified with this unpopular war are Trump, Rubio and Hegseth. I mean, I don't think, you know, and this could still go very, very, very wrong. It is in the process of going even wronger than it has gone so far. So what does that do to Rubio? How does Rubio, who is not a Manga person. So, I mean, that seems like a complicated cell to me. His base is traditional rhino types, but he has to be able to. Anyone who gets the Republican nomination, who is going to prevail in Republican primaries has to speak to the MAGA end. So how's that going to happen? I don't know.
- [22:38]
A
Well, could he. Is there a scenario where Rubio could win without much of a MAGA base, where he enlivens the Latin vote, He appeals to normal Republicans or non Trumpers, the never Trumpers. And he has a neocon. You want me to answer that? Big enough to get him elected.
- [23:06]
B
That base doesn't really exist anymore. I mean, we don't know what the Republican base actually.
- [23:11]
A
Well, haven't they just become. Aren't they just independent voters at this point?
- [23:16]
B
No, no. This is, I mean, I mean, that has been the. I mean, what we have seen, the entire. The narrative of the last 10 years has been that the Republican base, the traditional Republican base, isn't there anymore. Where has it gone? I don't know. The traditional Republican base is. Is this new. Who knows? Maga, populist, evangelical, whatever you want to call, is not the base out of which Marco Rubio has. Marco Rubio's career has grown.
- [24:01]
A
Okay, so would Marco Rubio, in theory, appeal to independent voters?
- [24:07]
B
Yeah. Well, that's not enough. Independent voters is not, you know, independent voters is only your add on. And independent voters might get you across the finish line, but they're not going to get you to be number one in a Republican primary.
- [24:28]
A
Right, I know. I was thinking ahead of the primary,
- [24:31]
B
so that's not okay. Yeah. So I would say, now, what if Trump got behind Rubio? I don't know. I don't see it.
- [24:45]
A
Well, also, if he got behind him, he would still stab him in the chest and in the back.
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B
But it might be his way to stab somebody else by getting behind Rubio. But I don't know. I just don't think that at this point in Republican time, we are going to revert to a norm.
- [25:07]
A
Okay, well, Pete Hegseth is definitely not reverting to a norm. I mean, I'm astonished still that he's in charge of the world's largest military, given that he got let go by two veteran associations that he was working with. Repeated claims of drunkenness on the job, inappropriateness on the job. His own mother wrote him a note saying, you are an abuser of women, which he later takes. Took back when it looked like he might get a big job running the world's greatest military. Please tell me it can't be Pete Hegseth. I mean, he has in common with Trump a television background, A little bit of a television background, certainly not as big as Trump's, but he was a co host on Fox News.
- [25:56]
B
You know, he's one of those candidates, remember, who prevails in these kinds of races has as much to do with who fails. So is Pete Hegseth somehow, because he's a performer, because he seems shameless, because he's pro military in some comical way, does this make him someone who can be a number two or three, and then number one and two fall and he rises? Unlikely, but not impossible.
- [26:48]
A
Oh, that's a terrible scenario. That is just a terrible scenario that Pete Hagseth rises and could become president. I mean, it's just horrifying. I'm still convinced that there was something in his drink when he addressed the military and he had that weird cup of coffee with him. Who takes a cup of coffee when they address the generals?
- [27:13]
B
I've always thought it's a ridiculous idea that someone would announce, if I get this job, I'm gonna stop drinking. Spent my lifetime drinking, but if I get this job, I won't have another drink. That's right.
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A
I have famously been carried out of work events too drunk to walk, and I will stop drinking when I do this next job.
- [27:34]
B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
The only thing he has is a look. He has a look. I don't like his look, but he has a look.
- [27:47]
B
No, and just, you know, I mean, shamelessness is not to be underrated here. Never to be underrated.
- [27:56]
A
Rfk, as we're recording this, is still in the cabinet, though. There's been a lot of talk about him being let go, but he's certainly quietened down. So he understands that he could be a liability for Trump, and he's going onto his own podcast to posit his crazy theories.
- [28:14]
B
I think that he has, I mean, so far. What do we know about our RFK Jr. I mean, in broad strokes, here is a person who has spent his life, his adult life, his entire life, in a rudderless mode. He had a whole set of these expectations which he could not meet, which he ran from, which he undermined, self destructive in every way. And then at the age of 70, he decides to run for president. And it resurrects almost, because there's nothing
- [28:57]
A
else he can do, by the way.
- [28:59]
B
Yeah, well, he could have gone on and just, you know, whatever, hit on women and, you know, taken whatever drugs he takes.
- [29:08]
A
Well, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. They're not mutually exclusive, of course, but
- [29:14]
B
at any rate, so he runs for president. And remember, so the reason he runs for president is that he's convinced to do this by Roger Stone and Steve Bannon, and he runs first for the Democratic nomination. So Roger Stone and Steve Bannon think, oh, that's a fun thing. He will be a. He'll run against Biden. He'll be a spoiler. He'll help reveal all of Biden's weaknesses, and he'll get big numbers because he's a Kennedy. And that too will show how weak Biden is. And to some extent, all of that happens. Roger Stone and Steve Bannon, their plan comes to fruition. The thing that they don't plan on is that RFK Jr really likes running for president. And we can get to the Olivia Nuzi of it all. But he likes running for president. And when he realizes he's not going to get the Democratic nomination, he merely announces that he is going to run as an independent for president. So he can keep going forever. And he takes a big chunk of voters from Trump and a big chunk of voters from Biden.
- [30:43]
A
Well, a big chunk is an exaggeration, isn't it? Because at his best, wasn't he only somewhere with around 15%?
- [30:50]
B
Well, that's a big, big chunk in presidential politics.
- [30:54]
A
Well, as a Third party candidate. It's enough to swing it one way or the other. But I thought that no one figure out which way he was going to swing it.
- [31:04]
B
That's a huge and destabilizing amount of the electorate if you can get it. But the thing was that he had taken from a sort of equal amount from the Republicans and an equal amount from the Democrats. Then when Biden dropped out and and Harris stepped in, all of those functionally protest voters went back to the Democrats. So after that, after Harris joined the campaign, he was only taking votes from the Republicans, which is why they had to make a deal with him. And the deal they made was that he would join the cabinet. But this is fantastic for him. This guy who did nothing. A wastrel, right?
- [31:59]
A
No, no.
- [32:00]
B
A martyr figure. A joke suddenly assumes national importance. And so the point of this is that of course he's going to run. What does he have to lose? It has worked for him. So yes, RFK Jr using the Kennedy name, using his anti vax maga credentials is going to run for President of the United States in the Republican Party.
- [32:36]
A
Right, right. I mean the whole journey you couldn't make it up. If you read it in a novel you would say this doesn't make any sense. I don't believe this character, he's possibly the most flawed person in the race. As we know, he's a former heroin addict who, you know who. Again, a strange bedfellow for Donald Trump. Donald Trump who says he's a germaphobe. And there is RFK Jr openly talking about having snorted coke off a toilet seat.
- [33:06]
B
Right. And it's just the name. I mean RFK Jr has one. I mean he has the Kennedy name and then added to it this anti vax thing.
- [33:16]
A
And he clearly has a charisma. I've never met him. You've met him or I think I've seen him at Gala's and things. But by then I just always thought he was a sort of washed up heroin addict. But you have had experience with him and seen his charisma, especially with women in action.
- [33:34]
B
I have and I've been personally impressed by him and drawn to him. Only to be, by the way, repelled there. But the.
- [33:48]
A
Repelled by him?
- [33:49]
B
Yes, repelled by him. I mean on lots of levels. Because you thought he was. He seems crazy.
- [33:59]
A
Well, I'll never forget you telling us about his night terrors, that at one point you were sharing a room with him when you were on Democratic duty. You were writing about him supporting his uncle who was Running for president Ted Kennedy in Alabama. And you drove round Alabama together, sometimes staying with local Democratic Party activists. And he would have night terrors when you were sharing the room. Might have been you, but I think it was probably a culmination of the heroine and obviously his own tragic background.
- [34:29]
B
And I found all of you know, that whole Kennedy thing, when you get up close to it, is pretty toxic.
- [34:39]
A
Well, it seems very broken.
- [34:42]
B
Yeah. I mean, they seem. I mean, each of these people I have met of that generation are assholes, actually, I would say. And it's interesting, you know, I did watch this, the Ryan Murphy love story about JFK Jr. And I thought that was an incredibly vivid and probably accurate picture of the Kennedy family. Every one of these people's people who Carolyn Bessette had to interact with were clearly assholes.
- [35:25]
A
Well, there are some fascinating anecdotes in the biography, which I referenced earlier, RFK Jr. Where they're so unpleasant to other people. And there's a bit where they're wondering if someone will give. If a Kennedy will give Carolyn Basset a eulogy. And I think it's Ed Schlossberg, Caroline Kennedy's husband, who also seems a bit of a pill, says Kennedys don't eulogize non Kennedys. And this sort of the weirdness of them all having bought into the Kennedy brand.
- [36:03]
B
Tucker.
- [36:05]
A
Tucker Carlson. So less of a political figure, obviously. No governing expertise whatsoever. And we haven't even talked about these people's competence, actually. But I mean, again with JD Vance, zero competence running anything. Elise Marco Rubio's been in the Senate a bit longer. Rfk, the reverse of competence. Utter incompetence. No competence whatsoever, ever in his life. And the incredible thing is, do you remember that whole thing when he was working at the Riverkeepers, which was supposed to be an environmental organization to preserve the Hudson River. And he insists on, and, in fact breaks the organization almost by insisting that they hire a man who's been convicted for rare bird smuggling. And he's like, he deserves a second chance. I've had a second chance. Everyone deserves a second chance. And people are like, what are you talking about? You can't hire a convicted rare bird. Rarebird smuggler. Yeah. To run or to be involved in an environmental organization. An RFK to his own incredulity, wins over the board partly by just being a Kennedy, I think, and then being worried that if he leaves, they won't be able to raise money because they raised money on the back of him being able to. To pull in his family for the annual garden.
- [37:31]
B
I'm attracted to the idea suddenly of a rare bird smuggler.
- [37:38]
A
Well, anyway, competence from Hegseth. Missing. J.D. vance. Just zero competence running anything. Cause he hasn't had any experience running things. And RFK Jr. Negative competence.
- [37:53]
B
Okay, Tucker.
- [37:54]
A
Tucker. So that takes us to Tucker.
- [37:56]
B
So Tucker, I've had this discussion on quite a number of occasions with Tucker about his desire to run for president. And he has done the deflecting, but not the denying. And in some sense he is the natural post Trump candidate.
- [38:24]
A
How so?
- [38:25]
B
Well, he's a media figure. Why did Trump become the President of the United States? Because he was a media figure. Because he was famous in his own right outside of politics and because he understood how the media worked. How do you get a audience? How do you hold the attention of an audience? A whole set of, of skills that we have learned at this point certainly Trump. Ordinary political skills, policy, policy background, bureaucratic abilities. So that's Tucker, the guy who has a large and consistent audience over quite a long period of time. Plus, Tucker is the guy who has probably more than any other articulated a basic MAGA point of view. America first, immigration, white people, Christianity. He's put that together into a package that sounds credible or that sounds like someone has thought it through.
- [39:52]
A
And also he's very clearly adopted an anti war position. We don't know how the war is going to play out yet, but as we're recording this, it doesn't seem like it's going to play out well to America's advantage. So he may well have put a stake in the ground, which then becomes difficult for Hegseth and Rubio to ignore. Oh, it's the Amagansett midday horn. I love the sound of the Amagansett midday horn.
- [40:25]
B
There it is. If you didn't know, it is 12 o'. Clock. It is high noon in the Hamptons.
- [40:34]
A
High noon in the Hamptons. How fun. You do have a nice life. Michael, in your book line studies in the Hamptons with the noon horn. It's magical.
- [40:43]
B
So I'm not going to run for president.
- [40:48]
A
You're not going to run for president. Well, that's too bad.
- [40:53]
B
No, that's not, that's too bad. But Tucker, you know, I mean, I, you know, this is, I mean, it's interesting to spend time with a person who very clearly wants to be president. I mean, that's a kind of leap if you think about it, a leap of identity. I should be president. I deserve to be president. I could be president. All of these things going through a person's mind. And that's Tucker. I mean, Tucker has not that long ago 2016. So 10 years ago, Tucker was the weekend Fox guy.
- [41:37]
A
Right. And Tucker also seems to have, we haven't talked about any of these people's personal lives. So Hegseth been married three times and cheated on wife number one and number two with the subsequent wives and certainly had allegations of sexual abuse against him, which he's denied. But he certainly paid off one accuser, Rubio, wife number one, four children, J.D. vance, fourth kid on the way, very high functioning wife and still on wife number one. And Tucker Carlson seems to have a reasonably wholesome home life, doesn't he? I mean, you visited him at home where he had dogs under the table.
- [42:23]
B
That's a pillar of his, of Tucker's identity.
- [42:28]
A
Is tucker also like RFK Jr and possibly Pete Hegseth, an ex addict?
- [42:36]
B
Yes. Tucker is a former alcoholic. Yes.
- [42:42]
A
Okay, so we've got two former alcoholics and an ex heroin addict out of four candidates so far. Yes. Okay, what does that tell us about the people who are running for president?
- [42:55]
B
Yeah, no, it's a good thing to think. I have to think about that. I had not thought, but yes.
- [43:01]
A
So this is something that attracts addicts. And Trump is an addict. He's an attention addict. Okay.
- [43:12]
B
Moving swiftly on, I want to challenge that. I think it's wrong to promote these new addictions. Trump is not an addict. I mean, he is not, he doesn't have an alcohol, I mean, his brother had an alcohol problem. He doesn't, you know, Trump has, I suppose to his credit, I mean, never, he's, he's never, he's never had a drink. He's never smoked. He's never had drugs. So.
- [43:42]
A
And yet he describes himself as having an alcoholic's personality. And I was just suggesting that this is a group of people who have a lot of familiarity with addiction to alcohol and drugs. And I find that interesting in that they all want to be president. That's all I'm saying. Let us introduce a woman into the group, Marjorie Taylor Greene, a blonde woman, no less.
- [44:08]
B
It's an extraordinary story, all of these stories. Extraordinary. Where do these people come from? They all come out from under a rock. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene, this is, I mean, even that we should be spending a second talking about. Marjorie Taylor Greene is.
- [44:32]
A
And yet she's busy running around saying that Trump is not fit for the job, that those in the cabinet are complicit, those around him are complicit.
- [44:42]
B
So she comes to power by absolute
- [44:46]
A
slavish devotion to Trump and saying crazily bizarre things.
- [44:51]
B
Crazily bizarre things. But at the center of this, I will die for Donald Trump now in this new phase of her career, it is the exact opposite. So it's just, I mean, it's a.
- [45:06]
A
Well, she's just flipped the opposite to J.D. vance. So J.D. vance says Trump is the new Hitler and then is submitted, subsumed and seduced and elevated by proximity to Trump. She is elevated initially by proximity to Trump, then doesn't get any further and may truly believe that he is insane at this point. And so she's flipped the other way and is now an anti Trump candidate. She's promoting Tucker to be president. I suspect that she wants to be his vice president.
- [45:40]
B
The difference is that, I mean, Vance is trying. Is proceeding along a relatively traditional political alignment and realignment. Marjorie Taylor Greene. This is strictly. I mean, her road is a media road. She came to, you know, her slavish devotion was a, you know, was selling. That's the way she sold herself to the media. You know, remember she caused a commotion in one of Biden's State of the Unions.
- [46:16]
A
Oh, State of the Unions.
- [46:17]
B
I mean, that was just a media play. And now in order. So she's left Congress in order to continue as a media person. She does that by being an anti Trump person. She would not get nearly so much of attention. She wouldn't get any attention if she merely continued on I love Donald Trump line. So this is that. That's the game she's playing, how to get attention. She's not a political figure. She is like Tucker, waging a campaign outside of the traditional political road.
- [46:57]
A
I didn't think the pain from the shingles rash would affect simple everyday tasks like bathing, getting dressed, or even walking around. I was was wrong, though. Not everyone at risk will develop it. 99% of people over the age of 50 already have the virus that causes shingles, and it could reactivate at any time. I developed it and the blistering rash lasted for weeks. Don't learn the hard way like I did. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today. Sponsored by GSK. Right. And then what about Don Jr. Well,
- [47:33]
B
you know, I mean, from a standard point of name recognition, he would probably go to the head of the field and let's assume that he had the complete support of his father. I think that that could be pretty convincing.
- [47:58]
A
And we know that Trump is obsessed by the Kennedys and wants his own version of politics. That's dynastic politics.
- [48:06]
B
I don't really think Trump thinks in those kinds of legacy terms. I think actually inside his head, I mean, he sees his own children competing with him or as a danger to him as much as anyone else. I mean, the idea that he would share the Trump name and legacy with one of his children, you know, one of his frequent riffs was. You know, he often says terrible things about his children, including Don Jr. In one of his frequent riffs in the past has been, I really regret giving him my name.
- [48:49]
A
No.
- [48:49]
B
Oh, yes.
- [48:52]
A
I guess when I was referring to the Kennedys, though, I meant the way that he stages the family at rallies and events and indeed when he's won the presidency, that there is this sort of phalanx of family around him. He's obviously in the center, and that feels like an echo. That's not something that other presidents have.
- [49:15]
B
You know, the Kennedy enterprise was one of legacy, if not me, you, when I'm done, then you and this next generation and that next generation. And that really is not a way to. I mean, Trump is much more after me, the deluge.
- [49:37]
A
What is Trump like as a father to Don Jr.
- [49:40]
B
He's a shit. I mean, an absolute, complete shit. There. There's no fatherly anything there. He is treat. He treats all of. Has treated all of his children as. As. I mean, that they're. As employees. They, you know, nothing. I mean, trag. Tragic. And. And they're. I mean. I mean, says terrible things about them, dismisses them when God handed out brains. Mine weren't in the front. That kind of stuff, really. Oh, God. Could not be worse.
- [50:21]
A
And what does he say about Don specifically? Don is the oldest, obviously, so he seems the most likely. He seems better with the crowd than Eric Trump. Ivanka's already taken herself out of the running. Tiffany seems anxious to be in every photo that she can be. And then, of course, there's Baron, the mystery child, who is so tall that he should be easy to spot, and yet he seems invisible wherever he is. But how does Trump single out Don Jr. Do you think?
- [50:55]
B
Well, what do you mean? How does he single him out? What terrible things he does. What does he say about him? It's a constant kind of thing.
- [51:01]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [51:02]
B
Including saying to anyone who will listen, and I am, you know, oh, God, I really regret giving that guy my name.
- [51:11]
A
Okay, well, that's.
- [51:12]
B
It's terrible. I mean, it's just. I mean, all of these, you know, his children, in their own way, are kind of. I mean, certainly the sons kind of broken by their relationship with him.
- [51:29]
A
Is Don Jr. Competent?
- [51:32]
B
Of course not. Why? You know, I mean, he's a lackey. He has spent his life as his father's lackey. He's spent his life in a business that is of very little consequence except to support his father. Gives me the shivers.
- [51:59]
A
Okay, but you think he could nevertheless go to the top of the pile?
- [52:02]
B
I do. I do.
- [52:05]
A
All right. So suddenly, Steve Bannon seems. I hate to say this, but a little less frightening than some of the other candidates. At least he's run things, although he just seems like chaos, man.
- [52:19]
B
Steve has never run anything. What is Steve run?
- [52:24]
A
Well, didn't he work at a bank at one point? Didn't he work for Goldman Sachs?
- [52:28]
B
Yeah, for 10 minutes when he was a child. Yeah. Steve doesn't. Steve does not run things. Steve.
- [52:36]
A
What about Breitbart? Didn't he run Breitbart?
- [52:39]
B
You know. Yes, but what was that? I mean,
- [52:47]
A
doesn't he still live off. I mean, I guess what I mean is he's been out in the world
- [52:52]
B
more than the others, doesn't run things, and possibly is the most disorganized person I've ever dealt with.
- [53:00]
A
Well, he seems to be a total
- [53:01]
B
chaos, incapable of returning a telephone call, none of these things, and is kind of proud of it. I mean, this is. I mean, chaos is a medium that he thrives in,
- [53:17]
A
so he would not be a serious candidate, but nevertheless, he might run just for the hell of it and to provoke everybody else.
- [53:24]
B
Yes, And I would think. Say, don't under. I mean, Steve is never going to get the Republican nomination, and he's never going to become the President of the United States. But Steve has his own kind of effectiveness and his own kind of impact. And I would never underestimate that. What he is, his ability in this kind of situation to become a pivotal figure. I mean, he's lazy, too. So that's the other question, whether he would want to do this. But again, he's turned himself into a media figure, and he's. Steve can be incredibly charismatic, and Steve can shift the conversation. I mean, the conversation that we've been in for the last 10 years is in part because of Steve Bannon.
- [54:27]
A
Okay. Steve Bannon has a podcast. Tucker Carlson has a podcast. RFK Jr. Is starting a podcast.
- [54:35]
B
Marjorie Taylor Greene is on everyone else's podcasts.
- [54:40]
A
Good point. So, okay, so it's a rum bunch. We started with It's a rum bunch. And we're ending with it's a very rum bunch. Of course, there'll be other characters that will emerge over the Next year. What about, I mean, my preferred choice if I had to vote for a Republican, would be John Thune because he looks like he plays a president on television. What about Mike Johnson and John Thune?
- [55:08]
B
Forget about it. What are you smoking? I mean, Mike Johnson, I mean, he's a MAGA person. He's not gonna run for anything. He can barely keep his head above water. And he will before then and shortly be defenestrated, I'm sure. I mean, Thune is just from another age. It's another kind of Republicans. I mean, those guys gave up a long time ago. All they want to do is hold their jobs.
- [55:40]
A
Okay, well, that's too bad because he would look good at the White House. Michael. Joanna, very interesting conversation. And there is a future post Trump. It sometimes feels like. Well, it sometimes feels like there isn't a future post Trump for any of us, regardless of what your party is.
- [56:01]
B
But let me just add one other point because I think it's key here that all of these people, this will be a fight for the maga, which is already interesting because I'm not sure that the MAGA heart is now and will be then large enough to create a national political victory. But all of these people, it's just going to be one focus. Maga, Maga, maga. And who gets, who is the true, the true MAGA voice and who gets
- [56:42]
A
the blessing of Donald Trump, which may be a poison chalice.
- [56:46]
B
Yeah. And there may be, I mean, a lot of people, I mean, one of the. In the fight for the MAGA heart, part of the logic will be that the MAGA heart is not the Donald Trump heart.
- [57:02]
A
Right. Well, and there's always that thing too of where the boss has to go but he can't quite let go and he wants to come back. And I suppose Trump, well, Trump is probably too old to pull a Bob Iger who left Disney and then went back to Disney after a two year interregnum with his chosen successor, in theory, Bob Chapek.
- [57:30]
B
I would say it's different. I mean, from Trump's point of view, it's to return to Mar? A Lago as still the head of the Republican Party, which he would not. If another Republican becomes the President of the United States, he goes back to Mar? A. I mean, he really enjoyed his Mar A Lago interregnum. So he goes back to that. Still with the Republicans coming kissing his to kiss the ring, still with his pronouncements being the leading Republican pronouncements, still being able to rag on whatever Democrat is in the White House and then at some point he dies and a happy man. I suppose he would die a much less happy man, however, if there was someone in the Republican Party who had clearly replaced him.
- [58:33]
A
So he'll be rooting for the Democrat and I wonder if he will have built his arch by then, the Trump arch, and whether or not the new president, whoever it is, will inherit the border.
- [58:44]
B
I think it's part of the story to be told and that I trust we will be telling how he reacts to all of this over the next two and a half years. It won't be pretty.
- [58:56]
A
If you have been thank you for watching. Don't forget to press the subscription button. We really love your support and we're almost actually we're not far off, 700,000 subscribers, which is really exciting. We made enormous progress. And of course the one person we haven't talked about, though, it seems highly unlikely that she would run. But then, you know, Bill Clinton wife ran to be president. We're not thinking that Melania would do a sudden.
- [59:24]
B
Melania, you might have noticed, was not born in the United States.
- [59:30]
A
Oh, that's true. But couldn't Donald Trump change something about it? She could be unifier. She could be unifier candidate. So the good news is we have so many bee beast tier members now there are are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino Ryan Murray Rachel Passer Heather Passaro Neil Rosenhaus Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com specialoffer.