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- [00:01]
Narrator
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- [00:18]
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- [00:49]
Michael
They don't want to fire him because he has the Maha constituency in is significant, they feel, to their to the Trump base. So they want him to go away, but not go away mad. That's a powerful constituency. If he becomes their enemy, Tucker has become their enemy. There's only so many enemies in their own base they can afford. We are seeing the gradual defenestration of RFK Jr. Still Jr. At 72.
- [01:26]
Joanna
Michael.
- [01:27]
Michael
Joanna, how goes?
- [01:31]
Joanna
It's a lot, as close observers of this podcast will know. This is not my usual background. I'm in my childhood home where my mum is terminally ill. And what I've discovered through so many notes from people and comments and emails is how many people are going through this right now and have gone through this and how devastating it is. And we mentioned last time when we were talking about it, this is something that everybody inevitably goes through, but it's very hard to prepare for. My mom has pancreatic cancer, which is a, you know, it's a nasty cancer. A lot of people out there have had run ins with it and lost loved ones. And just a big thank you to everybody who's written in. And this is, this is difficult, but I didn't want to protect, pretend that it was business as usual because it's not. But as they say, thank you for asking.
- [02:33]
Michael
Yeah, no, as you know, I've been through this and as we've discussed, everyone is inevitably heading for this.
- [02:44]
Joanna
Well, and the weird thing is a little bit like we talked about often at the beginning of the Trump madness of Trump 2, you walk outside, you order your cappuccino, the sun's shining and you think, can all this really be going on? Is America being dismantled brick by brick? And it's a Little bit like that. You walk outside, people seem to be having normal lives and you think, but I'm dealing with this enormity. And then you think, well, other people are dealing with it too. And we all potter around as if it's not going on when it is. Anyway, anyway, we have a lot to discuss. We've got all our friends, we've got frat boy haggers that we need to get into. We've got RFK Jr, who's still Jr at 72, as you're always pointing out. We have a lot of stuff to get through.
- [03:32]
Michael
No, the don't forget Kash Patel and don't forget Tucker. I mean, it's a great, it's a great cast of characters.
- [03:43]
Joanna
It's a rogues gallery. It's a rogues gallery, actually. It's extraordinary. Yes. Today, the New York Times. Well, we're recording on this on a Saturday morning, US Time, and the New York Times has dropped a podcast which is almost two hours long, an interview with Tucker Carlson, which we'll get into a bit later.
- [04:04]
Michael
And it's not just the podcast because they reproduced and they reproduced the podcast word for word in the paper. It's actually a monumental Tucker package.
- [04:16]
Joanna
Well, he must be thrilled.
- [04:19]
Michael
Well, it's in contrast to, I wrote a book a couple of years ago about Fox News and Tucker was one of the main characters, of course, in, in, at Fox News and in, in my book. And I was with him and I think this would have been the spring of 2022 when the New York Times did a three part series about him. Devastating. I mean, it was just every, just taking him apart, everything that he had ever said. I mean, it was a real focus, all the guns on Tucker Carlson. So now I think it's just worth pointing out more as a media point than anything else that because Tucker has now disassociated himself from Donald Trump, he gets quite a respectful treatment from the New York Times.
- [05:14]
Joanna
Well, I will confess I'm halfway through it. I started listening to it somewhat surreally, picking up medicines for my mom in the local pharmacy. So I'm halfway through it. But he sounds so convincing. And I want to remind people a little bit later on at some of the texts and the emails that surfaced during that Dominion battle when of course, he got fired for, for as part of the settlement, they wanted the head of Tucker Carlson.
- [05:42]
Michael
Yeah, well, let's talk about that because I know a considerable amount about that because I've known Tucker for a very long time.
- [05:51]
Joanna
Well, we should talk about that. But I wonder if we talk about it later, because I would love to get into what on earth is going on with the appointment of the Surgeon General. We haven't had a surgeon General since Donald Trump took over, and Trump too, which makes me wonder if we actually even need one.
- [06:09]
Michael
Well, let's look at this. The more global, global issue. And there are two levels. First, the, the level of all of the people around Donald Trump. And you know, they're now like, each one in turn seems to be in danger of his. Of, of losing his position. His or her position. Many her. Her. Many her. And this is among Donald Trump's problems. This is a central one that he has staffed the administration with people who everyone, everyone thinks are jokes. And that is also, this is certainly true of RFK Jr. But also very specifically directed at him because he has become the face of something that is deeply, deeply unpopular, which is anti Vax position. You know, and it's, that's a kind of worth noting that that anti vax position became something that, that central to MAGA and something that much of the media credited with, with, with, with being behind Donald Trump's 2024 victory. Well, it turns out, in fact, that the anti Vax position is wildly unpopular, wildly unpopular everywhere. That whole idea that this was part of a new movement in America is flat out wrong. So they are now stuck with RFK Jr. And his, the, the anti Vax face. So what do they do now? What I'm hearing is that they're trying to get rid of him. I mean, and they are trying to, to get him the way this was put to me. They are trying to get him to go. So the rationale, they're trying to get
- [08:16]
Joanna
him to relinquish power himself. They're not going to fire him. They want him to somehow resign.
- [08:22]
Michael
Right. They don't want to fire him because he's, he's, you know, he has. The Maha constituency is significant, they feel, to their, to the Trump base. So they want him to go away, but not go away mad.
- [08:42]
Joanna
Wow. What do they think would happen if he went away mad?
- [08:49]
Michael
Well, it's just that that's a, that's a powerful constituency. If he becomes their enemy, I mean, we'll get, we'll get to Tucker in a minute, but Tucker has become their end. There's only so many enemies in their own base they can afford.
- [09:05]
Joanna
Well, and you have always made the point that he, like Tucker, is contemplating standing in 2028 as president himself. So this would be a way of him taking his base Perhaps with him and building on it for 2028, though it's hard to. To believe anybody could possibly vote for RFK Jr. Apart from Cheryl Hines, who, you know, tragically was trailing behind him as Secret Service led him out of the ballroom at the White House Correspondent's Dinner last week. I saw so many memes of Cheryl sort of running behind him as he was led away. You would think they might remember the wives in all this.
- [09:50]
Michael
There is, you know, it's also worth noting that Tucker and RFK are closely aligned in some sense. RFK is a Tucker creation. I mean, that was his first, his first big media base when he became a 2024 candidate. Tucker Show.
- [10:14]
Joanna
So the first two nominations for the Secretary General, the first one was Jeanette Niechwart. I think that's how he pronounced it. Surgeon General. Sorry, sorry. Surgeon General. She was.
- [10:31]
Michael
The Secretary General is at the U.N.
- [10:34]
Joanna
yeah, I knew there was a general in there somehow. Okay, so Surgeon General first nominee was Jeanette Nashiwat. She was dismissed because it turned out there were questions about her academic qualifications. Casey Means, after a year, has finally been put to one side. So we've not had a Surgeon General for the first, what, 16 months of Donald Trump's second administration. And the third one, Nicole Safier, is an expert in breast cancer.
- [11:09]
Michael
And Kayce Means just got the ax this past week.
- [11:12]
Joanna
Yeah, this happened on Thursday. So this seems much more significant than just someone having their nomination withdrawn.
- [11:24]
Michael
No, and there's also at the cdc, there was. RFK lost his choice and the White House imposed another choice. Dr. Schwartz, Dr. Erica Schwartz. So he's being. The White House is trying to essentially curtail or limit RFK Jr. And they're trying to put in their own people who are mostly less extreme, certainly on the anti vax side than rfk. So, I mean, I think we can. I mean, it's certainly we are seeing the gradual defenestration of RFK Jr. Still Jr. At 72.
- [12:12]
Joanna
Still. We should always remind people of that. Still Jr. At 72. Yeah. And Casey Means was particularly problematic. She hadn't finished her residency. She'd suspended her own license to practice. She was very much an entrepreneur who is a big believer in metabolic health. So she wanted everybody wearing a glucose monitor, which happily, she sells through her own company called Levels. Nicole Safier, who's now been nominated instead, is, of course, she is a doctor. She's head of, I think, breast cancer radiology in New York at one of the big hospitals in New York, but also a Fox News contributor Which is probably where she first surfaced. And she also has her own business. Interestingly, she suffers from Hashimoto's disease, which is an autoimmune disease that actually attacks the thyroid. And of course, she has her own company full of organic supplements. So if you need some tinctures, Michael, I recommend you go on droprx and you can support our potential new surgeon general.
- [13:20]
Michael
No, the entire right wing appears to be supported by supplements.
- [13:27]
Joanna
So do you.
- [13:28]
Michael
How does this go down mention obviously taking them too well.
- [13:35]
Joanna
So do you. Does RFK Jr. At 72, does he leave voluntarily? Isn't this the most exciting thing that's ever happened to him? Here's a man who's been trying to fulfill his destiny. He's finally swinging his legs from a cabinet secretary's chair.
- [13:57]
Michael
Yeah, I mean, if they want you to leave, you're going to leave. Absolutely. And so I imagine. I mean, I assume that that's what's going on right now. They are negotiating leave taking. They don't want him to go in a hostile fashion. They will probably find something else for him. And by the way, that's not so bad for him either. I mean, he is now a national figure. He has his own constituency. Constituency he's got. If he wants to take the next step, then he has to get out there. He has to free himself from the, from the Trumpers. And I'm not sure you want to be. You wanted. You want to be bolted onto this to this White House. You want an independent, an independent life, an independent platform. And then you want to devote your time to raising money and running for president.
- [14:52]
Joanna
Well, and he may want to start a supplement business. He's going to have to finance into
- [14:57]
Michael
sourdough a supplement business.
- [15:01]
Joanna
Cheryl Hines has her own bath and body business, which I can't remember if you've. I feel like we talked about the ad where RFK Jr. At 72, is in the shower behind her and she's kind of blocking his tackle, as it were. So he appears to be naked, but you never actually see anything. As Sylvia Plath would say, you never see the turkey giblets. But he's promoting her bath and body line so they could do a quick year at that, build up some resources because he won't have his previous supporter.
- [15:40]
Michael
No. Yeah, but I don't think that. I think he's gone. I think the entire RFK junior Career has. Has changed. I mean, he, he went from a marginal figure to now he's a central figure in the conservative movement. So I think that there's probably an enormous amount of. Of money that will be available to him. I mean, this is, this is. I mean, one of. One of the things that I think you can say about this, about this administration is that it has elevated all kinds of. Of unlikely people to national stature.
- [16:19]
Joanna
Indeed, indeed. And also we mentioned in the last podcast the recent spate of hearings. And we'll come on to the frat boy, Pete Hegseth in a moment. But RFK sat through, I think, seven hearings, seven committee hearings, and by the end of it, you just thought that he'd been pretty much shredded.
- [16:41]
Michael
Yeah. Nobody in the White House was happy about this. I mean, it is just a thing. It was a misunderstanding that has now been corrected. The anti vax position is not popular. And I think it's come as a kind of a shock to a lot of people. There was. I mean, we've all lived through this. This idea that suddenly there was this reaction in the United States against vaccines turns out totally wrong. Everybody wants their vaccines except some, you know, oddballs.
- [17:17]
Joanna
Right. And nobody wants measles. And having eradicated the disease wholly in 2020, it's now back with an estimated 6,000 cases this year. We're projected to have. What about the damage he has done to science and scientific research? Is that coming up at all as you talk to people?
- [17:40]
Michael
Well, you know, it's one of the things that's coming up is an interesting. It's interesting is that lots of the money that has been cut appears to be returning. So this is, I mean, and it's one of those few instances where I think that the Trumpers are looking at this and saying, hey, we've really got a course correct on this. This is radically unpopular, but how could
- [18:14]
Joanna
they ever think that it would be popular in the first place? Everybody knows someone who's got some sort of disease where America is ahead of everybody else in terms of trying to figure out the cure for it. It's astounding that they would think that could have been a popular position. Oh, we're going to cut cancer research, we're going to cut clinical trials. How could that possibly be popular with people?
- [18:41]
Michael
You know, I think that. I think this. This was just a general, you know, the, the fog of politics, that somehow this became an idea that America had profoundly changed in this regard. And you saw this everywhere, certainly through Covid and the 2024 campaign. These were the things. People didn't want this. There was a rebellion against science, against medicine, and it just turns out not to be true.
- [19:14]
Joanna
It's Crazy. And yet Donald Trump talks about bombing Iran back to the stone age and his own health department is trying to take American science back to the stone Age.
- [19:24]
Michael
No. And there was a decision this week by an app court on, on, on miferpristone, you know, which is the, which is the abortion drug and you take a pill and you, you know, it's the, it's the, it's, it's the method of abortion which has become infinitely more popular since abortion has been, been, been, been made outlawed in many states.
- [19:53]
Joanna
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:56]
Michael
You know, and that's something in that within the White House that is going to be something else that will be that they regret this. They know that this is not a popular issue now. And actually on the, I remember at one moment on the campaign trail, Trump was asked about mifepress stone and you know, clearly he, he had, he had no idea what this was. And I remember his, his immediate answer was, was we're, we're, we're gonna, we have a position on that. We're gonna make that clear in two weeks. Of course those, nothing was ever made clear in the two weeks.
- [20:41]
Joanna
Yes, well, well, just explained.
- [20:45]
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- [21:07]
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- [21:16]
Joanna
two weeks because I love this as, as how Trump operates. For those who didn't hear it when you discussed it last time, it's such a good insight into Trump.
- [21:28]
Michael
Whenever he doesn't know something, whenever he gets hung up about something. It's just two weeks. We're going to discuss that in two weeks. Let me get back to you with two weeks. Even in the war, the cease fire was supposed to last two weeks. And he has a special understanding of that, which is that during the first week people still remember, but by the second week everybody forgets.
- [21:55]
Joanna
Well, especially the pace with which he works. So the decision on Mephipristone was what exactly? I will confess, this is one I slightly dropped, which I shouldn't have done. But what was the decision?
- [22:08]
Michael
So the appeals court has restricted Mifer Prestone in, in states. I mean, the courts have now allowed states to put up really kind of absolute restrictions against getting the oral abortion drug.
- [22:30]
Joanna
It's just extraordinary. The rights of women are being stripped back all the time. Maybe this is something Jeff Bezos can deal with and maybe they can make it available on Amazon as apparently they are thinking of rebooting the Apprentice because Amazon got the rights to the Apprentice in some deal I think with MGM and they're thinking of rebooting it with Don Jr. As the host.
- [22:59]
Michael
You know, it's interesting because I remember when, and I guess this was in the first flush of the second term, when all kinds of media companies were either settling the lawsuits that Donald Trump had brought against them or rushing down to see how they could court favor with the new administration. And the people at Warner Brothers Discovery went down, had a meeting in the White House with top Trump aides and very specifically they were told, well, why don't you look at the example of Amazon and Jeff Bezos paying Melania Trump $40 million. And then they went on to say that there were in fact other members of the Trump family who might like a, their own particular shows. Specifically. And specifically it was that John Don Jr. Would have, would like a show about hunting and fishing. And that was specifically on the Discovery Channel, which I guess would have been appropriate. But Jeff Bezos certainly has gotten the message.
- [24:17]
Joanna
So this would be yet another suck up from Jeff Bezos to the Trump administration.
- [24:26]
Michael
He's using corporate resources to give money to people in the Trump family. And the Melania movie, I mean, the Melania movie can't possibly have been a financial success for Amazon and certainly not, shall we say, a critical success.
- [24:48]
Joanna
Well, I think it took 16 million at the box office, global box office. They paid her, I think 40 million and 28 was what she actually got. And then they spent another 35 million promoting it. I mean, I guess it goes on their service. So I don't know how many people have actually watched it on the, on Amazon prime, perhaps over the years, the long tail of it will repay their $75 million.
- [25:18]
Michael
I seriously doubt that.
- [25:21]
Joanna
Just amazing.
- [25:22]
Michael
And I think, and if the Trumps exit public life as I expect they will, I don't think you'll ever be able to see the movie.
- [25:36]
Joanna
Do you think that Don Jr. Who I will confess I don't have as much experience of, do you think he would be a suitable replacement for his father? I remember Martha Stewart and Arnold Schwarzenegger and Trump delighting with glee that their ratings were not as good as his. Would this be something that the son would be forced to do under pressure from his father and then it wouldn't work?
- [26:10]
Michael
I'm sure it wouldn't work, but I'm sure he wouldn't be forced. I'm sure he'd be delighted to do it.
- [26:17]
Joanna
Well, he's also, well, hunting and fishing, run for president.
- [26:22]
Michael
I mean, he probably sees this. I will become the host of the Apprentice and then I will become the President of the United States.
- [26:31]
Joanna
Let's now discuss Tucker. Let's discuss this two hour podcast that the New York Times put out. Two interviews by Lulu Garcia Navares of the New York Times with Tucker Carlson. Two interviews that they put together, okay?
- [26:48]
Michael
And then the background of this is that Tucker, last week, week before last, came out in a very vocal way, a very kind of an extraordinary way to say that, that he was, that he has, he not only was against the war in, in Iran, but he regretted his support for Donald Trump from the very beginning. And there's a, there's a back and forth in the, in the, in the New York Times interview about Tucker calling Trump the Antichrist, which then Tucker says he didn't do, but then they produce the evidence that he did. And you know, at any rate, he was, everything that he says about Donald Trump at this point is a, is what I've seldom heard actually a former supporter, even a former supporter. Damn someone like this. And that, of course, as we said before, is the reason that the New York Times is now, is now deviating from their past coverage of Tucker and making him somewhat of a poster boy, which is not to defend Donald Trump, but.
- [28:09]
Joanna
Right, but we have heard this because when it looked as well when, when Trump lost the election in 2020 and the case for Dominion, the voting machine company brought its case against Fox News for arguing that Trump had actually won the election, that the problem was with the voting machines, a case that was settled for almost $1 billion in damages. And Tucker Carlson's job, he lost his job over it. Texts and emails surfaced that were going on and I've got some here. Tucker. This is Tucker Carlson about Donald Trump in January 21. I hate him passionately. We are very, very close to being able to ignore Trump most nights. I truly can't wait. What he's good at is destroying things. And then he described his presidency, his first presidency, as a disaster with no uprising upside. So we know that he thought this about Trump.
- [29:11]
Michael
Well, I know it even more intimately because I've been talking to Tucker from certainly from the earliest point in two side even before 2016 about Trump and his view of Trump has always been harsh, disparaging and harsh. And also Tucker has been a fantastic source for me. He knows all kinds of, all kinds of inner workings than the negative spin on the inner workings of the, of the Trump White House, which he has.
- [29:47]
Joanna
Do you still talk to him?
- [29:48]
Michael
To me and to others? Yeah, on occasion I do, yes. And so, but I think that that's an interesting example. I mean, in. Because it is not. Tucker is emblematic of people around Trump who, who are incredibly, in public and professionally completely loyal to Trump and in private are unsparing in their descriptions of Trump as a, as a buffoon and moron, incompetent and, and a man with malice in his heart. So the question is, is this, is this not only a break in maga, but the kind of break in which we will see other people who have expressed their true feelings that they're the, the, the Republicans and MAGA people suddenly are. Will they be. Feel that there is permission or the beginnings of permission to state their real feelings about Donald Trump?
- [31:06]
Joanna
I mean, one of the interesting things in the interview, when people have finished watching and listening to this podcast, it's very important you do this podcast first if you decide to listen to the Daily. What's fascinating is Tucker saying that it's as if Trump casts a spell on those around him and that you can end up getting very confused by the end of spending time with him. Or at least Tucker says that that's his experience of being with him and that he watches how people around Trump get weaker because Trump is able to sort of squash them just by sheer dint of personality. I actually feel that he's got the sort of opposite effect on lots of people, which is that they harden their positions against him. But Tucker's suggestion was that it was almost a sort of surreal out of body experience. Being with Trump, he was so powerful. I mean, he literally said it's spellbinding. It's as if he's cast a spell.
- [32:10]
Michael
Yeah, I think this is rationalizing because in my experience, Tucker has been absolutely clear about his feelings about Donald Trump. His view of Donald Trump, he's been actually incredibly insightful and uncompromising in his view that Trump was unfit to be the President of the United States.
- [32:42]
Joanna
I mean, this seems to be the feeling of so many people around him. That's what makes it just.
- [32:49]
Michael
I mean, but just understand this because I think it's hard for people to understand this. This is the world of politics. Politics Is in politics, you have to accept what is. If you. And what is, is that Donald Trump was elected by the American people. If you want a career in the Republican Party, it is Donald Trump. And you, you, you have only so much leeway. So, yes, and that's immoral to want a career, having to support someone who, who you feel is, is, is unfit. Absolutely. But at the same time, you know, the world is as it is and that's the, that's the central lesson of politics.
- [33:43]
Joanna
Oh, goodness, what a. It's just.
- [33:45]
Michael
That may be true, but the interesting thing is that that may be changing. The other thing about politics is it changes. The world is as it is at this moment and then it changes.
- [33:56]
Joanna
Do you think it's changed or do you think King Charles's visit will have any longer term impact? Do you think it was just a couple of great speeches or do you think actually it will have left a, a legacy to improve things?
- [34:15]
Michael
No, Well, I think, I think all of this stuff, I think it, it accrues. And the question is how much of it accrues. In other words, it's. Were this just to be, and were King Charles to be an isolated incident in which you see Donald Trump and King Charles, and King Charles is obviously the, the more intelligent, rational, dignified and approachable figure, then that probably would have gone away. But if you combine King Charles with the war in Iran, with ice, with the failing economy, with tariffs, with all of the morons that surround Trump, well, that's pretty impactful.
- [35:04]
Joanna
Hmm. Well, I wanted to give a shout out. We forgot to mention this last Thursday when we were wildly enthusiastic, or I was certainly wildly enthusiastic about the King's speeches. Shout out to the person who found the bell. It must be incredibly difficult to find a gift for Donald Trump. And Charles managed to find a bell from a submarine which who knew had been called HMS Trump. And if you're in the diplomatic department and your job is for finding gifts, that certainly deserves, I think it deserves a prize because Trump looked thrilled with it. I'm sure he can put it on his Resolute desk, which was made from wood and was a gift from Charles's great great great grandmother, Victoria. I think that's right. So what a, what an incredible gift for someone. Hard to think of something. And of course it was shiny, which we know that Trump loves shiny objects. Shiny object that he can just bang when he wants attention, although we know that he has his buzzer for the Diet Coke on the desk, which I think you reported first years ago from Trump. One,
- [36:14]
Michael
I just want to go back to Tucker because I really think that this Tucker thing is potentially a hinge moment. And to also point out that Tucker Carlson is running for president. I mean that's what this is. He has identified this issue and I think it's a powerful issue and possibly a mortal issue for Donald Trump. The war in Iran.
- [36:42]
Joanna
How did you think our favorite frat boy, American boy doll, as I think of him, Pete Hegseth did in his hearings? Cause that was all about the war too. I think that interruption.
- [36:57]
Michael
I have a 4 year old who's just come back from his first T ball experience.
- [37:03]
Joanna
Sweet.
- [37:07]
Michael
Oh, Hagers. Yeah, Hagers. Oh my God, Hagers. You know, I mean to me he's, he's the, the cannon fodder. It's interesting that the, that, that the Secretary of, of Defense or the Secretary of War is the person who, who, who sends, sends people into, into harm's way. And in this instance, I think Trump is sending him into harm's way. Trump is pushing him out there again and again. He just made, made Hagers go on, go out and, and defend this idea that they don't have to report, they don't have to ask Congress for permission about the war at the 60 day mark, which the legislation clearly says they do. So I mean, I think along with RFK Jr. We ought to start the clock on Hagers. Someone is going to pay for this war.
- [38:13]
Joanna
And Haggers, who was really, I thought taken apart by the Democrats actually many of whom had served alongside him in Iraq and Afghanistan too. So he couldn't pull the. Well, I've served and you haven't. Obviously. Jason Crowe and Alyssa Slotkin and Seth Moulton all went after him and their experience is every bit as good as his in the battlefield, which is something he holds aloft all the time. But he's trying to.
- [38:43]
Michael
But it's one of those other things.
- [38:46]
Joanna
Did you just stop? Did you just stop? You were going to interrupt me and that you suddenly thought better of it and now you're laughing, now you're laughing. I was simply going to say that of course Haggis has found a loophole. He's found a 14 day loophole because of this supposed ceasefire, which means that if you have a ceasefire then you can tack it onto the 60 days by which point you're supposed to have congressional approval, when in fact they've just rode roughshod. They've driven a coach and horses through the notion of congressional approval. Now please, Michael, continue.
- [39:24]
Michael
You know, I don't Think, I mean it's, it's again, Hagers is one of those, those people that everybody, I mean a hundred percent of everybody in, in, in Washington, in the military, with any association with, with, with the military feels is inexplicable. This co host of a weekend television show sits at the highest level of the industrial military complex and worth pointing out that as this war is waged, the US Munitions are being, are being decimated at a level that we cannot keep up with. So that's the guy who we, who we depend on.
- [40:25]
Joanna
Well, and the other thing is that he's asking for a record $1.45 trillion for the Pentagon budget. And this is a man who ran two Veterans affairs organizations and left both under accusations of drunkenness and incompetence. I mean the idea that you would take someone like that and a, allow them to ask for such an enormous budget, record breaking budget and then entrust it to Pete Hegseth seems to be a terrible lapse in judgment.
- [41:06]
Michael
And speaking of drunkenness and incompetence, that means that perhaps we should go on
- [41:11]
Joanna
to Kash Patel, strangely missing, conspicuous by his absence at the state dinner. He was not on the guest list and causing a lot of unpleasant attention for Donald Trump.
- [41:28]
Michael
Well, I mean, so we have three figures here in our cast of characters, RFK Jr Haggers, Kash Patel, who each of them seem in a mortal position within the Trump administration. Who's going first?
- [41:50]
Joanna
Who is whispering in Trump's ear? Is this Susie Wilde whispering in his ear at this point?
- [41:58]
Michael
Well, you know, I always find that whispering in Trump's ear is a, is a different sort of thing because he doesn't listen. So I, you know, I think that there is a separate kind of thing. I think Susie Wiles is maneuvering and that's, that's one of the things that he's, she's kind of, kind of really good at to do these things that are kind of at, at a distance from Trump. So will she, that she will undermine RFK Jr and Cash Patel and even Hagers on her own account, let's say.
- [42:43]
Joanna
Well, I wonder if the cabinet will be intact when we next speak on Tuesday.
- [42:49]
Michael
Well, I mean we speak often, so but I don't think the cabinet will be in this in the state it is in now, four or five weeks from now. And I would go, I would put my money on Cash as the first one out at this point.
- [43:13]
Joanna
Well, Haggart surely has to survive the war, doesn't he? I mean, according to Trump, yesterday the war's been terminated. It's. It's terminated. It's unclear if the Iranians know that. It's unclear who's got control of the Strait of Hormuz, which we haven't managed to say yet. This particular episode. I always like saying it because such a beautiful.
- [43:37]
Michael
Well, no, but I. It is, it is clear who has control of the Strait of Hormuz. And that's the Iranians.
- [43:44]
Joanna
That's the Iranians, yeah. Okay, fair.
- [43:47]
Michael
You know, they have, I mean, we've, we've blockaded the Iranians so that they can't. They don't have access to the, to the Strait of Hormuz either, effectively. But having said that, they have deprived everyone else of access.
- [44:03]
Joanna
So I think Hegges doesn't go until they can resolve this, surely.
- [44:08]
Michael
Well, they can't resolve this. This is part of the problem. So the blame here is going to be for not resolving this. So someone is going to have to be the fall guy there. Why is the war still dragging on? Why is there no resolution? Why didn't we win? Why is oil so. The price of oil still so high? So who's going to be the fall guy? There's only one guy right in the middle standing up. And he stands up again and again, just position to be knocked down.
- [44:49]
Joanna
He looked so agitated in those hearings. He was trying to do his best to kind of perform and laugh. And you know that he's just thinking, Donald Trump is watching this. Wherever he is, in his bed behind the Resolute desk, hanging out with the king, whatever. He's watching this. And I just have to look angry and as if I'm just dismissing the Democrats claims. And yet he looked agitated. He looked like he'd lost control. And he looked furious. He looked absolutely furious. And he must know that, as you say, he's been put out there eventually to be knocked down.
- [45:28]
Michael
Yeah. No, and this is against the. I mean, there's some key things here. You know, that he has taken that position that the war is being lost because Americans are disloyal. Never a good move. And this is against the backdrop of polling numbers that show a. How unpopular the war is just complete. I mean, it has no natural base at all in the American electorate, number one. Number two, Trump becomes day by day increasingly unpopular. So his numbers have sunk into the 30s. This is a catastrophe. We are really at the catastrophic point here. I think it's good that we start to develop a kind of scorecard here who's going next, because this is the thing that really shows the weakness of where this administration is. You know, for a year and almost a year and a half, they were, they've, they, it didn't matter what anyone did. Everybody was secure in their jobs. Now no one is secure in their jobs. That's a tell. And we should keep following it.
- [46:55]
Joanna
Well, we will keep following it. We'll be back on Tuesday with more if you have been. Thank you for joining us. And Michael, I will see you on Tuesday. Can you remind people to press the subscription button, please? I forgot at the beginning.
- [47:11]
Michael
Press the subscription button, please.
- [47:15]
Joanna
So the good news is we have so many bee beast tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhaus.