Is Elon Musk Having Second Thoughts

Summary

The Daily Beast Podcast: “Is Elon Musk Having Second Thoughts”
Release Date: March 13, 2025
Hosts: Joanna Coles and Francesca Ramsey
Guests: Hugh Doherty (Executive Editor, The Daily Beast)

---

Introduction

In this episode titled “Is Elon Musk Having Second Thoughts,” hosts Joanna Coles and Francesca Ramsey delve deep into the current state of Elon Musk's ventures and personal reflections. The conversation explores Musk's recent challenges, his relationship with former President Donald Trump, and the broader implications for his business empire.

Elon Musk's Current Challenges

Security Threats and Personal Safety

Francesca Ramsey initiates the discussion by expressing her wavering opinions on Elon Musk, particularly highlighting the deterioration of his messaging (03:23). She shares insights from a friend who has interacted with Musk, revealing that the constant security threats have taken a toll on him personally and professionally:

Francesca Ramsey [04:19]: "His security now is out of control. It's so insane, the threats he gets. He's been living at the White House, sleeping at the White House, and he just gets death threats all the time."

Financial Downturns

Joanna Coles and Francesca Ramsey discuss Musk's significant financial losses, noting a "$100 billion decrease" since he began openly supporting Donald Trump (15:22). They examine how Musk's business decisions, particularly the ramping down of Tesla sales and the challenges with product batches, have impacted his net worth and market perception.

Joanna Coles [15:24]: "Has the time clock started on the four months? Because I would like to know that."

Relationship with Donald Trump

The hosts analyze the symbiotic yet complex relationship between Musk and Trump. While Trump continues to endorse Musk’s products, Musk's declining financial status and the increased scrutiny may strain this alliance.

Francesca Ramsey [17:27]: "He (Musk) is taking on the deep bureaucracy. He's trying to cut government... people are hugely in favor of cutting government because they think it's more bloated."

Guest Insight: Hugh Doherty on Elon Musk and Trump

Financial Metrics and Public Perception

Hugh Doherty provides a detailed analysis of Musk’s financial status, emphasizing the drastic reduction in his wealth and the negative public perception:

Hugh Doherty [15:22]: "53% of people don't have a favorable view of Elon Musk. Americans don't think he's a person to handle government or the economy."

He connects these metrics to Trump's potential concerns regarding his own approval ratings and how Musk's troubles might indirectly reflect on Trump.

Trump’s Influence and Media Strategy

Doherty discusses Trump’s media-centric approach, noting how Trump's public endorsements and statements may both support and undermine Musk simultaneously. He points out the risks Trump takes by publicly aligning with Musk amid his financial struggles.

Hugh Doherty [16:13]: "Trump is doing his best to support Elon, which takes us to another number. 53% of people don't have a favorable view of Elon Musk."

Impact on Musk’s Business Ventures

Tesla's Market Performance

The conversation highlights Tesla's declining sales and the repercussions of negative publicity, including the backlash from Musk's public appearances and statements.

Francesca Ramsey [05:00]: "The impact has been so great on his own life."

Public Relations Missteps

Musk’s casual appearance at high-profile events, such as wearing unconventional attire during public addresses, has drawn criticism and may have contributed to his diminishing public image.

Hugh Doherty [21:49]: "Elon is somebody that we can track some of his relationship with Trump by what he's been wearing."

Broader Implications and Future Outlook

Market Volatility and Economic Influence

The hosts and Doherty explore how Musk's actions and the subsequent market reactions could influence broader economic indicators and investor confidence.

Hugh Doherty [28:05]: "Elon might be somebody that's driving those markets down."

Potential Shifts in Alliances

Discussions touch upon the possibility of Trump seeking new alliances as his support for Musk wavers, potentially introducing other influential figures into the political and economic landscape.

Hugh Doherty [32:03]: "When the Elon show is beginning to fade, and maybe it is, we're going to see somebody else brought in."

Conclusion

Joanna Coles and Francesca Ramsey conclude the episode by reflecting on the multifaceted challenges facing Elon Musk. They acknowledge the intertwined nature of personal security, financial stability, and political alliances, suggesting that Musk may indeed be contemplating a strategic pivot in his endeavors.

Francesca Ramsey [29:32]: "It's like a professional though. So you have to put it in your bag."

The episode underscores the precarious balance Musk must maintain to navigate his vast business empire amidst mounting personal and external pressures.

---

Notable Quotes

• Francesca Ramsey [04:19]: "His security now is out of control. It's so insane, the threats he gets."

• Hugh Doherty [15:22]: "53% of people don't have a favorable view of Elon Musk. Americans don't think he's a person to handle government or the economy."

• Joanna Cole [15:24]: "Has the time clock started on the four months? Because I would like to know that."

• Francesca Ramsey [05:00]: "The impact has been so great on his own life."

• Hugh Doherty [28:05]: "Elon might be somebody that's driving those markets down."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a comprehensive look into Elon Musk's current predicaments, examining the intersection of his personal security concerns, financial setbacks, and political affiliations. With insights from Hugh Doherty, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the potential repercussions for Musk's future endeavors and his relationship with influential political figures like Donald Trump.

For more in-depth analysis and discussions on current events, tune in to The Daily Beast Podcast every Thursday.

Transcript

[Joanna Cole]

On average, you'll have to wait 31 days to see an OB GYN. And if you're dealing with an infection or outbreak, you know you need careful fast.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

That's where WISP comes in.

[Joanna Cole]

Connect with a U.S. licensed provider online and pick up safe, effective treatment at your local pharmacy that same day. Plus get birth control and more delivered in all 50 states. Take control with comprehensive sexual and reproductive care all from your phone.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Wisp.

[Joanna Cole]

That's hello wisp.com the waiting room can wait. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have.

[Francesca Ramsey]

One of your assistant's assistants switch you.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

To Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail].

[Joanna Cole]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms at MintMobile. Acast powers the world's Best Podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Okay, here's the pitch.

[Joanna Cole]

What if John Oliver's Last Week Tonight.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Had a baby with Shark Tank and that baby grew up in the 2000s and loved getting sassy about celebs, movies and TV shows. But that baby's grounded and empathetic. Okay, and inquisitive with too many dang opinions about things in the cultural zeitgeist and and the two of us cackling all the time. Yes, that would be our podcast.

[Joanna Cole]

Let Me Fix It I'm Francesca Ramsey. And I'm Delon Grant and we are.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Two best friends who together host Let Me Fix It.

[Hugh Doherty]

Each week we take a deep dive.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

On a topic and then we do our best to try and fix it. So make sure to tune in for new episodes every Wednesday. Wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

[Joanna Cole]

ACAST.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Joanna Cole]

Acast.com.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Welcome to the Daily Beast Podcast. I'm Joanna Cole, Chief Content Officer of the Daily Beast and I have terrible lighting compared to Sam B. I have been watching this podcast on YouTube. Wow. To talk to people who are engaging and leaving comments and I'm horrified at how bad I look compared to you.

[Joanna Cole]

I think that is silly and I want to introduce myself. I'm Smith, Chief Content Officer of Edible Flowers, which I brought for you to snack on. And perhaps that is the reason for this incredible inner glow that has nothing to do with this giant light that is facing me.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Sneak. Eating flowers.

[Joanna Cole]

Sneaky. They're so delicious. You just pop one in your mouth.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And oh, my God. Next time you're gonna be on Meghan's season two, aren't you? And I'm gonna be left in the cold because I was more critical than you were of the show.

[Joanna Cole]

You know what? I would thrive on that show. I would thrive on that show. And in fact, I brought you a jar of my very own honey.

[Francesca Ramsey]

You did?

[Joanna Cole]

The honey that My baby.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Hello. Where is it? Where is it?

[Joanna Cole]

It's in my purse.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Okay. Of course. You walk around with a jar of honey in your purse. I'm very excited to have an edible flower, but I feel like first we have to get into it because there is a lot to get into.

[Joanna Cole]

There is so much to get into.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah. And I'm wavering on Elon again because I know I go back and forth. I'm wavering. I agree. His messaging is not. But I spoke to a friend yesterday who'd been talking to.

[Joanna Cole]

Sorry, was it the Nazi salute? I'm just wondering about the messaging.

[Francesca Ramsey]

The messaging is his weakest element. But she said she had been talking to Elon and she said that he's going to do this for four months. His thing is, I'm doing it for four months. I can't do it any longer than that because it's just going to mess with my business. But the thing that has, I think, surprised him and shocked him and made him think, is this the right thing for him to do is just that his security now is out of control. It's so insane, the threats he gets. He. I mean, he's been living at the White House, sleeping at the White House, and he's just. He just gets death threats all the time and all the people around him get threats.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Which is the opportunity cost of doing what he's doing. Right. Well, is opportunity cost the right. Am I using the right. Is that the right use of opportunity cost? I mean, I think it is. Might not be, but the cost of it actually is immense.

[Joanna Cole]

Well, my follow up question is, has the time clock started on the four months? Because I would like to know that. Yes, the time clock has clocked.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes. I think we're sort of six weeks in.

[Joanna Cole]

Okay. So that counts toward the four months while I await the end of those four months.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Okay. And who knows? Maybe he'll still be there in a year. Who knows? But I thought that was interesting that he had said he's not sure it was worth it.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I think the impact has been so great on his own life. And I thought that was interesting.

[Joanna Cole]

Yes. And the fact that people are not buying Teslas and people who have Teslas are madly trying to sell.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I gave my Tesla back. I told you, I gave my Tesla back. Partly, though, because it didn't work.

[Joanna Cole]

I think it's very funny, probably. I made a face when you said that. You're wavering on Elon Musk in the same way that last week when you said that Trump's performance was masterful. I made such a face. I wish we could screen a lot.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Of people, face people who commented, didn't like.

[Joanna Cole]

Oh, yeah.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But, yeah, I thought he flattened the Democrats. He had total control of that room. And the more Democrats deny it, the worse it's going to be for them to get back.

[Joanna Cole]

I'm making another face. I'm making another face because, I mean, I think that when you look at kind of. We're talking about the Congressional address, obviously, and certainly Democrats looked, you know, they looked cranky and they had these dinky little signs and it was pretty embarrassing.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But they were auctioning off democracy. I mean, it was. Then you look at the other side.

[Joanna Cole]

Of the room and you just have these, like, cackling idiots just clapping and standing. It wasn't exactly a flattering portrait of strength and democracy on the other side of the aisle. So I don't know, I think the whole thing was trash.

[Francesca Ramsey]

If I may, I might need an edible flower right now to give me. Is there any sugar in those things?

[Joanna Cole]

God, no. Pansies. So delicious and. And so nutritious.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I'm surprised you even knew where to buy them, because you were so withering about Meghan putting flowers on everything that I'm impressed you actually secretly knew exactly where to get them.

[Joanna Cole]

I knew exactly where to get them because I confess that I do like to bake and I have decorated a cake. You know, occasionally I've decorated cakes too.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But I just wouldn't turn it into a television show. Because you grew up in England, this was a basic skill. Of course, you made a Victoria sponge almost every other day when he came home from school, just like the nuns.

[Joanna Cole]

Of Call the Midwife. There's always a cupboard, there's always a tin and there's always a Victoria sponge in it.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And I've told you, my mum, still at 94, makes three cakes. We always have three cakes and the house stops at 4 o'clock for a slice of cake. And it's usually Almond, which is my favorite coffee, which is taste of coffee. It's not like, bland, like American coffee cake or Victoria sponge.

[Joanna Cole]

I love this so much.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Okay. Moving swiftly on, we have Hugh with us. I'm so excited to catch us up on what's going on with Trump.

[Joanna Cole]

Catch me up.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And what else do we have?

[Joanna Cole]

We have Eliza Schlessinger.

[Francesca Ramsey]

All I want is her workout details. She looks insane. And she's wearing these crazy leather pants, which I'm obsessed by.

[Joanna Cole]

Yes.

[Francesca Ramsey]

That don't seem to have anything to hold them up.

[Joanna Cole]

Well, they're like pantyhose with leather legs. I don't know how that's good.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Describe.

[Joanna Cole]

Is it? Yeah, they're really interesting. Her new comedy special is called A Different Animal, and I really liked it and I really like her so, so much. So I'm excited to talk to her.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, and I want to talk to her about. There's an amazing part in it where she suddenly starts squatting across the stage with an idea of a butt lip gloss that she's come up with, which is so funny. I just spit. Take. She. She's such an eccentric. I'm very excited to talk to her. And then, of course, we should try and get Craig and Michelle on from their podcast onto our podcast, because they're going to be talking about relationships.

[Joanna Cole]

I never like to hear about a competitive podcast.

[Francesca Ramsey]

They're just, why don't we. Why don't we ride in tandem with them? It doesn't have to be competitive. People have got plenty of time to listen to things.

[Joanna Cole]

Oh, sure. Are you. Are you up to. I have a lot of travel coming up. My family. I'm going to France. My half. My family is going to Nepal. I'm very.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah. Why aren't you going to Nepal?

[Joanna Cole]

I don't want to go there. I don't want to do a hike. That's difficult. I'm going. Going to do a different hike, actually. I'm taking my daughter to France next week, and we're going to climb a different mountain. We're going to climb a mountain of Camembert.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, how delicious. So jealous. Lots of baguettes, Camembert fashion. Lots of. I've got tons of fashion tips for you from. I know the best resale stores in Paris, actually.

[Joanna Cole]

Oh, my God. Okay.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah. And you really can pick up fantastic things there because French women wear something and then just, you know, pass it on immediately.

[Joanna Cole]

Of course, it just follows that beautiful large as falls off their body in the streets.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And someone like that, you have to squeeze your Way into it. I think this fits. I can make this fit.

[Joanna Cole]

I love that. A size six in France is basically like a zero minus two in America.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, of course it is. Yeah. It's like Marks and Spencer's in the UK changed their sizes. British bottoms got so much bigger, but everybody was depressed about it, so they just made the pat. They made this. The size of the lingerie smaller so people felt great about themselves. And they were like, it's amazing. I've put on weight, but now I. You need a size 8.

[Joanna Cole]

Do you think people listen to this podcast in Canada? Canada's in a tizzy. Everyone I know, we've got Mark Carney now.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Everybody's all Mark Carney, the former governor of the bank of England.

[Joanna Cole]

There's a real frisson in Canada right now. People are very, very angry. I am hearing about it constantly. Everyone's blaming me for Trump. Everyone's like, what are we gonna do? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm trying to get my passports in order.

[Francesca Ramsey]

So who is? The question I really have is asking for a friend. Justin Trudeau. Dating now.

[Joanna Cole]

Oh, how would I know that, Joanna?

[Francesca Ramsey]

I sort of feel like all Canadians, like, all British people know each other.

[Joanna Cole]

I think that's less true than you think. Canada's a very wide place. A very wide place. It is wide.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It is wide. Okay, but is it deep?

[Joanna Cole]

It's wide, it's deep, it's tall, it's all of the things.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I still feel like we haven't quite gotten to the bottom of that story of why Justin Trudeau and his wife split up while he was still in. It doesn't quite make sense to me. It's unusual.

[Joanna Cole]

I don't know, but all I know is there's turmoil over there, and everybody wants to know where to put their money. And I said, I don't know, guys. Everything's a Ponzi scheme. I don't think anything is safe anywhere globally. So good luck to us all. Good luck and God bless.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, good luck, America.

[Joanna Cole]

Anything going on with Melania that we should key into before we begin?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, I think she's disappeared again, hasn't she? She's disappeared again.

[Joanna Cole]

She's just faded right back into the bush like Homer Simpson. She just retreated right back into the hedge.

[Francesca Ramsey]

She's gone. And interestingly, Michelle is emerging. Michelle is emerging as her own broadcaster with her podcast. When we said Michelle and Craig, obviously we meant Michelle Obama, just in case people didn't understand. And Craig Robinson, her brother, and they're doing A podcast about relationships and divorce and freedom. I think his divorce, not hers.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And so Michelle is moving to the foreground, which may worry Donald Trump, because as we know, he was very concerned she might be a candidate against him.

[Joanna Cole]

I am actually so confused about why people think that Michelle Obama is going to step forward and run for office on any level. And believe me, I am a person who is looking for that one true, clear voice to speak about politics right now. I am looking for a leader. But she has expressed in 10,000 ways that she is absolutely, totally not interested in taking the mantle. And so I'm taking her at her word. I don't know why we're. I nominate Pete Buttigieg. He's very good at speaking. He's an excellent communicator. We should have him on.

[Francesca Ramsey]

We should have him on. That's a very good idea. Okay, well, let's see if we can get him on for next week. All right, so what else do we need to discuss? Or are we ready to bring on Hugh?

[Joanna Cole]

Oh, let's bring on Hugh. Yes.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Okay. Do you think he's going to eat a flower? If you can get Hugh to eat a flower? A doubt.

[Joanna Cole]

He scot smooth complexion. He eats so many flowers. I'm certain of it.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, he might have a flower smoothie. Let's make some money for the podcast and we'll come right back with Hugh Doherty.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Hi there, it's your vagina speaking. I know sometimes I have a hard time heading there when we get down, but omg. Cream from Wisp is here to help. The instant arousal makes it easier to. You know, it takes two minutes to order online, so let's give it a try. Omg. I literally just went to heaven. I'm going to try that again. Go tell your friends though. Get on Wisp. Order OMG Cream online at hello Wisp dot com. That's hello W I S P dot com and have it delivered for free. Use code OMG. For 15% off your first order.

[Joanna Cole]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It's not just for celebrities. Do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail].

[Joanna Cole]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail].

[Eliza Schlesinger]

We all have that one friend whose.

[Hugh Doherty]

Opinion we trust on everything.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

For 63% of podcast listeners, that friend.

[Hugh Doherty]

Is their favorite podcast host.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

When Acast's podcasters endorse a brand, their audience listens and takes action. So if you want a recommendation that.

[Joanna Cole]

Really sticks, put your brand in their hands.

[Hugh Doherty]

Book a host.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Red sponsorship today by visiting go.acast.com ads.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Welcome back. We are joined now by my favorite colleague, the executive editor of the Daily Beast, Hugh Dorhany. Hugh, what the hell is going on?

[Hugh Doherty]

Well, Joanna, Sam, thank you for having me back. Joanna, I know you say that to all your favorite colleagues.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I do, actually, quite rightly.

[Joanna Cole]

We have loads of people to choose from.

[Hugh Doherty]

What is going on? Where do we want to start? Do we want to start with Elon?

[Francesca Ramsey]

I think so. As I said to Sam, I'm, I'm still wavering on, wavering back and forth. I know so many wavering. I hate messaging. But I like, I like the urgency he is bringing to something.

[Joanna Cole]

Oh, my gosh.

[Hugh Doherty]

All right, well, maybe, maybe we could talk about a couple of numbers that might mean something about Elon and then a theory that's no more than a theory, but I think one that we should talk, we should get out into the world. So some numbers for melon. He's got 14 children, as we know, but he's got $100 billion less than he had when he started supporting Donald Trump openly. So it's been a bit of a topsy turvy week. A bit of a topsy turvy six months. And this week we have seen Elon get a whole display on the front lawn of the White House. And just to run you through some numbers, he had four cars out on shore. It was the Pennsylvania Avenue Auto Mall, and he had Donald Trump shilling his cars.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Can I, can I just make a point? I am worth substantially less this week than I was last week when I look at my 401k. So I'm not saying my numbers are the same as Elon's, but I'm very sympathetic to the significant drop in the market, shall we say?

[Hugh Doherty]

Everybody has been exposed to these markets, right? And what's unusual about Elon is he might be somebody that's driving those markets down. The whole tariff chaos that's erupted has seen a big sell off in the Dow Jones and the S and P and whichever index you choose, and particularly in Tesla's share price. And Donald Trump is out there doing his best to support Elon which takes us to another number. 53% of people don't have a favorable view of Elon Musk. So there's a new poll out from CNN and ssrs and what it says is Americans don't think he's a person to handle government. They don't think he's a person to handle economy. And I know you're both fascinated for four month theory about Elon. The big question for Trump is is this going to start dragging down his view of Elon? Is Trump's approval going to start going down? Because Trump's approval remains actually quite high.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, and also for the President, Elon is incredibly useful because he's doing the dirty work for him.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Francesca Ramsey]

He's taking on the deep bureaucracy. He's trying to cut government. And I take the point of the figures that you just gave us, but most people are hugely in favor of cutting government because people think it's more bloated probably than it is. Sam wants more government.

[Joanna Cole]

Well, listen, I mean, a lot of government work is kind of make work, project, keep people employed. It's a very important function of government jobs. I'm Canadian and that's why I see it that way. But I really do. And I think people's opinions change when they start getting weird letters signed by Elon Musk asking them to justify their jobs and tell me 10 things you did that were useful.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Five jobs, five things. Not even 10.

[Joanna Cole]

Not even 10.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right. Five.

[Joanna Cole]

It's, you know, I think people are very shocked. My worry is that none of the things, like none of the metrics that seemed previously important to Trump in terms of his popularity and his numbers and the, you know, the, the condition of the stock market seem to be moving him anymore. Like none of those traditional movers seem to be changing his opinion of the way things are going. Is this correct?

[Hugh Doherty]

Well, Trump said, unusually, Trump has been, as everyone knows, a very public voice about the markets. And everybody knows that he's a fanatical follower of where the Dow Jones is sure, to him, it has been a barometer of popularity. This week he said, I'm not following the markets. And while nobody really believes him, that's certainly a different position to take. It's something he never dared to say in his first term. The other thing that people around him are saying, particularly Howard Lutnick, who is his commerce secretary, is this is worth it. And that's a message that Elon is also projecting that there might be. There have been words used that include a detox period, turbulence, none of those sound like good things. And now there's a messaging that maybe this is worth it now because this is Trumpland. Nothing is ever simple. And we're now hearing murmurings inside the White House's inner circles that Howard Watnick is overstepping the mark and that he's saying things that are not sensible. And sources close to Trump have been telling reporters in the White House that Lutnick does not appear to know anything about the economy or about tariffs. So because Trump, Trump being Trump, always goes on how people rate on television. Lutnick is doing a lot of television, but every time he speaks, he's giving ammunition to his critics. So it may be that he's the first person that gets overboard.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, and it's certainly true that when you watch Howard Lutnick, he looks giddy on the excitement of his newfound celebrity because he's a guy that people in the business knew, who. People on Wall street knew who he was. And he has a mixed reputation, but you can see him getting incredibly excited by being on television. And you watch that sort of bounce when people first become famous and they can't sort of keep it under control. And you can sort of see it playing out in him, actually.

[Joanna Cole]

People are so tired of the unpredictability. And we are not even. I mean, how many weeks into this presidency are we?

[Hugh Doherty]

We're just past 50 days, Sam. I mean, I know it feels like longer.

[Joanna Cole]

I want to know what to do with my. I mean, I'm getting really close to needing my retirement savings. Do you know what I mean? I'm getting a little older.

[Francesca Ramsey]

To move back to Canada. That's what you're gonna have to do.

[Joanna Cole]

Oh, my goodness. Well, Canada's in turmoil, too. These. These market whips us.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But at least you get healthcare in Canada.

[Joanna Cole]

You do get health care in Canada. I know. I want healthcare here. That's a pipe dream. Can you imagine? I'm laughing at myself for even saying it.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It's just, It's. It's fascinating. I don't know what to say.

[Hugh Doherty]

Canadians, of course. Elon Musk, briefly, was a Canadian.

[Joanna Cole]

Yes.

[Hugh Doherty]

And that's right. He's. He's a child of Canadian mother. He was educated. His beginning of his education was in Canada before he crossed the border to the United States. And, And I just want to. I want to introduce a theory about his appearance, that Joanna's wearing a particularly colorful coat.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Thank you. Two people commented on this coat this morning, and I took an Uber, so there weren't very many people I passed. And both one of them said bravo. I think bravo, madam. For Bravo. It's a showstopper.

[Joanna Cole]

It's a showstopper.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, I think they were saying Bravo because I was brave to wear it. And they were like, bravo, madame.

[Joanna Cole]

Wow, you really took a risk. What a swing.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I took a risk. Thank you.

[Hugh Doherty]

So Elon is somebody that we can track some of his relationship with Trump by what he's been wearing. And you'll remember that the first time he appeared with Trump on stage in Butler in Pennsylvania, he was wearing an Occupy Mars T shirt.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And we know, an ill fitting T shirt. I think it's fair to say we know that it's exposed belly.

[Hugh Doherty]

And thanks to the author Maker Woolf, who I will just preface that the White House have described Michael Wolff as.

[Francesca Ramsey]

A lying sack of shit.

[Joanna Cole]

A lying sack of shit.

[Hugh Doherty]

He relates that Trump said, what the F is wrong with him? And why doesn't he wear a suit? Now, Elon, you'll also remember, was in the Cabinet Room and he was standing up and he was wearing what one of my colleagues described, perhaps slightly darkly, as a columbine coat and his dark maga hat and a T shirt underneath. And again after that, this was like the movie.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It said tech support. The T shirt. Right, yes, sorry, I thought that was very funny. Tech support. Because I'm sure Trump has no idea how to log into his. Well, he doesn't even have a phone. Right.

[Joanna Cole]

Are we logging that as a positive toward Elon Musk?

[Francesca Ramsey]

No, I just thought it was funny that he was wearing a T shirt saying tech support when he's Elon Musk. Come on, people, we can't entirely lose our sense of humor.

[Hugh Doherty]

I'm just remaining very, very fair and balanced.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Okay, good. You report will decide.

[Hugh Doherty]

Exactly. But after that, there were beginnings of murmurings that Elon had begun to overstep the bounds. And in Trump world, there is only one king, there is only one star, and it's Trump. And murmurings got around of why is he not wearing a suit? The next time we saw him in a big public setting was at the address to Congress last week. And he was wearing a suit, he was wearing a tie.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And he didn't have a child with him.

[Hugh Doherty]

He did not have an emotional support child with him.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It was an emotional support appearance.

[Hugh Doherty]

Fast forward a bit. This weekend, Elon Musk went on Marine One and Air Force One to Mar a Lago. So we got to be able to see what he was wearing. And he was kind of halfway in between. He was wearing a jacket apparently ripped from a Suit, maybe a sport coat. He was wearing a T shirt. And when he opened up his jacket, you could see that it was from Brioni, which of course is the outfitter of Donald Trump. He's long got his suits there, has long been concerned that they're not the best fitting. But he's now dressing a bit like Trump. And then this week we saw him out on the Pennsylvania Avenue Auto Mall with the emotional support child X at his side. And he was back kind of halfway in between. He was wearing a T shirt which was promoting self driving Teslas that are, he says, coming next year, the Cyber Cab. But he was wearing the jacket and he was. His son, of course, was modelled on him as people.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, his son always wears a suit strangely.

[Joanna Cole]

Well, what was he wearing when he had a spat with Marco Rubio?

[Hugh Doherty]

Well, Sam, we don't know. And that spat of Marco Rubio seems to have marked possibly the high point of Elon Musk's power and the moment that Trump has begun to rein him in. And we saw the semiotics of the display at the White House were really interesting because Trump was absolutely out there. He listed off the prices of the.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Teslas, which he was reading from a thing. You've got a picture of that picture here.

[Joanna Cole]

And oh, God, what are we doing?

[Hugh Doherty]

Somebody. We don't think that is Trump's handwriting. Somebody wrote down, oh, that is all.

[Joanna Cole]

Not his self.

[Hugh Doherty]

Driving just needs to be turned on. When Trump got in, he said, wow, computer.

[Joanna Cole]

So I'm not sure he said, wow, comma, computer.

[Hugh Doherty]

He looked, sat down inside, he said he's not allowed to drive, which is true. Presidents and former presidents aren't allowed to drive. He sat down and he looked at the display. And I think most people have been in a Tesla, they've seen, there's a, you know, screen.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It's like driving an iPad. Driving a Tesla is like driving an iPad. And they are fantastic, fantastic cars when they work. I just want to say I bought one, I was very excited to have one and it stopped working. And then I was told it was from a rogue batch.

[Joanna Cole]

God, we've been.

[Hugh Doherty]

Trump did not mention that rogue batches are a risk. He did say that you can get them for as little as $35,000 and asked Elon, what's that all about?

[Joanna Cole]

We've been blessed with such an orator. Wow, computer.

[Hugh Doherty]

What's that all about? A good question, which Elon didn't answer.

[Francesca Ramsey]

So is Trump trying to give Elon an ad for his cars? Because he's acknowledging that Actually, in doing this for the country, in doing what he's doing for the country, Elon has actually lost $100 billion worth of personal value. And he's trying to help him. Is that what's going on here?

[Hugh Doherty]

Absolutely. Some element of that. Trump said he's been unfairly personal and he used language that we used to hear Trump using about himself, about persecution. You remember Trump was shouting witch hunt for the best part of the last 10 years. But that suggests that Trump here has slightly more power than Elon does. And he's inviting his followers to give some of their money to Elon, really, out of pity. And I'm sure.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, Elon's had $40 billion in government subsidies for Tesla and for SpaceX. Right. That's part of why he's doing.

[Joanna Cole]

Ended his government subsidies. Subsidies. I think Doge would have saved much more than that.

[Francesca Ramsey]

No need for Doge.

[Joanna Cole]

No need for Doge. I mean, that's the solution. Yeah. Put away the chainsaw.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But then somebody's got to get those two poor people back from space, right? NASA can't bring them back.

[Hugh Doherty]

Well, Trump's already offered some insight into.

[Francesca Ramsey]

What I liked his comments about. I liked his comment about the girl, the woman's hair.

[Joanna Cole]

I don't know.

[Francesca Ramsey]

He was like, she's got big hair, a lot of hair.

[Joanna Cole]

What, an Oriental.

[Francesca Ramsey]

She hasn't had a haircut for a year.

[Hugh Doherty]

He thinks they'll fall in love. And I'll just point out, because they are.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I don't think they're falling in love. I don't think they're falling in love.

[Hugh Doherty]

Ask them when they're back. But because we're at NASA astronauts, he is technically their boss.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, interesting. And no hr. I mean, it's a very interesting hr. What happens if they do fall in love is that it's a work relationship, I imagine.

[Hugh Doherty]

We will see a live stream courtesy of the.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I hope they do fall in love.

[Joanna Cole]

What type of awkward are we living in? It's definitely a kakistocracy. It's a kleptocracy. Is there like a definition of what? The time period that we're living in. How will we reflect on this historically if we have a future that enables us to look back on this time period?

[Hugh Doherty]

I'll defer to Joanna Suriocracy.

[Francesca Ramsey]

A beastocracy. A beastocracy.

[Hugh Doherty]

I think I'll just offer one plug that the swamp. Our brilliant, gossip filled newsletter has one thing that I think we should all keep an eye on in the next few weeks. In the next few months. Elon Musk isn't the only billionaire that Trump listens to. And right now it looks like he does. He listens to Musk. He absolutely has him at his side. But there are other people who are flexing their influence and are making clear that they want to be listened to about what, what happens to the economy, but what happens to the markets. And one of those people that we note in our, in our latest edition of the Swamp is Larry Fink, who's the BlackRock billionaire. And he has managed Trump's money in the past or parts of it, and Trump likes what he did to his money. And there's a big, there's a, there's, there's a big opportunity for Musk's enemies, and Steve Bannon obviously is the top enemy here to come after Musk and say, well, you can't manage your own money. You're harming the economy. There are other people to listen to.

[Francesca Ramsey]

What about Jeff Bezos, who's, I think, second richest man and obviously way behind in terms of blue origin. They've spent an enormous amount of money on that. Elon's rockets are better than Jeff's. Is Jeff trying to get Donald Trump's ear to, or is he just trying to lay low? Because I'm fascinated by the fact that obviously he bent the knee, went to the White House for the inauguration or went to Congress for the inauguration. And of course, Amazon remains the biggest purveyor of anti Trump material.

[Hugh Doherty]

It's very hard to know what Trump thinks so far about Jeff Bezos. He's said nothing. He's had him for dinner. There's no doubt that he welcomes the MAGA turn that Jeff Bezos has asked for in the Washington Post opinion pages. And in a troll from the White House podium this week, Caroline Levitt, the press secretary, congratulated the Washington Post. Washington Post on a reorganization. And it was really a very minor change in newsroom structure. But this is. They want to highlight that Trump appears to have power over Bezos. And Bezos has not been known to be directly advising Trump, but he has huge amounts of interest in front of the government. Trump can't be happy about the way that Amazon, as Joanna, you rightly say, is one of the places to go to get a load of anti Trump material. Amazon is selling everything. And I know, Joanna, you watched the new documentary on Katherine Graham that brilliantly portrays somebody not bending the knee at the Washington Post.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, it's an amazing documentary. Strongly recommend it. It's really about her running the Washington Post through both the Pentagon Papers, her decision to publish the Pentagon Papers when the New York Times couldn't publish the second and third part of them, and then obviously standing up to Nixon. And the parallels are extraordinary. And it's so weir that this is playing on Amazon prime when you were like Jeff Bezos is now, you know, was sold the paper for quarter of a billion dollars by Don Graham, K. Graham's son. And they are running the documentary which undermines everything that Jeff Bezos is doing with the Washington Post.

[Joanna Cole]

Well, I will say this. I was on the Amazon video, you know, on the app on my television. I turned it on yesterday to watch something else. And they are, they're showing and it is like the full front page are old episodes of the Apprentice.

[Francesca Ramsey]

So Bezos is having both ways. I mean, super interesting. I can't believe that the Trump people haven't tweaked to it. Or maybe they don't care.

[Hugh Doherty]

I think Trump knows that all of this is about great television. We saw that in Zelensky in the Oval Office. And at the end, how did Trump sum up this amazing moment in international relations? Well, that was great television. And to have billionaires fighting out in public over their affection or otherwise for Trump, that's what Trump feeds off. And when the Elon show is beginning to fade, and maybe it is, we're going to see somebody else brought in. It's the TV producer instincts that Trump has and are going to keep projecting forward into new personalities and new characters. And of course, being Trump, bringing back old characters.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right.

[Hugh Doherty]

So Elon, I don't think he wants more than a reunion show.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, so interesting. So Elon will be fired on with a new character. Hugh, thank you very much. Always, always interesting to hear what you've got up your sleeve.

[Joanna Cole]

So interesting.

[Hugh Doherty]

Thank you for having me. And thank you for the edible file.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Would you like a flower to take on your way? You look hungry.

[Hugh Doherty]

I will enjoy one with my lunch.

[Joanna Cole]

Put it in your pocket and have it for lunch.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, put it on top of your sandwich. Actually, to be fair, Hugh brings beautifully chopped salads every day from home. He does.

[Hugh Doherty]

I do, actually.

[Francesca Ramsey]

He does. I'm the one that goes out to the deli for the sandwich.

[Joanna Cole]

There's not great catering options right now. I love bringing my own lunch to things. I've got snacks in my bag.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I can't imagine anything I'd less like to do.

[Hugh Doherty]

Well, that's the inclination.

[Francesca Ramsey]

We're going to take another quick break before we talk to our beast of the week comedian Eliza Schlesinger.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Hi there. It's your vagina speaking. I know sometimes I have a hard time heading there when we get down, but OMG cream from Wisp is here to help. The instant arousal makes it easier to, you know, shh. It takes two minutes to order online, so let's give it a try. Omg. I literally just went to heaven. I'm gonna try that again. Go tell your friends though. Get on WISP. Order OMG Cream [e-mail] that's hello WISP.com and have it delivered for free. Use code OMG for 15 off your first order.

[Joanna Cole]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for 15amonth plan that I've been enjoying.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have.

[Francesca Ramsey]

One of your assistants assistance.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do.

[Joanna Cole]

@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate, first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms. @mintmobile.com your customers are scrolling past your.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Social ads, using ad blockers and paying for ad free streaming. But when they're listening to a podcast, they're hearing Acast ads which are 4.4 times more engaging than with display ads. So if you want real attention, start advertising on podcasts with Acast. Start today at go.acast.com ads.

[Francesca Ramsey]

We're back and we're excited to be joined by this week's Beast of of the week, Eliza Schlesinger. Eliza is a comedian, she's a writer, she's an actress. She's known for her razor sharp wit, high energy startup. She first broke out as the winner of last comic Standing and has since become a powerhouse in comedy with multiple hit Netflix specials. And now she's bringing her unfiltered humor to A Different Animal, her brand new special on Amazon Prime. From tackling relationships to gender dynamics, Eliza never holds back. Eliza, welcome to the show.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I love being your beast of the week.

[Francesca Ramsey]

You are our beast of the week.

[Joanna Cole]

You are.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I just, I have one question for you. Which is what the hell are you wearing in your different Animal? Because it's like Sam said, it's half pantyhose, half chapped.

[Joanna Cole]

Yes. Like a pantyhose with like long tall boots.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

They are chest. Okay, good.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And I think you should make a Line of them. Your equivalent of Meghan Markle's jam. You're gonna be wearing slightly dominatrix leather. Yeah. Leather pants. Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I found those pants as one does late night scrolling on a Spanish ravewear website.

[Joanna Cole]

Interesting, because I'm always like, oh, it's.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Like a fun thing. I saw them and I was just like. And I hadn't had my son yet. And I was like, it's those pants. And in my mind, and still to this day, I was like, these are just cool. Like, I didn't question. I didn't do it to shock anyone. I was just like, I could wear that.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And so I had my son and I should feel that way. Like, I can wear that.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And after I had him, I was working out, and the goal was to look good in the pants. And my trainer, I would, like, lift my leg, she'd be like. And one pants, like, she would always just say pants. Like, keep them in mind. And I thought they were just cool. And I didn't realize how divisive they would be and how angry people would be that I wore them.

[Joanna Cole]

People are angry about the. Well, they're angry about everything.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

They are fantastic.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It's fantastic.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It's a big theater.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah, right? Yes.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And it was fun. And it's like. It's like a rock star thing.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But also huge congrats on the abs. I mean, what the hell? How do you get those abs eight months after you have a baby? And now I understand it because you're trying to get in the chat pants.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I skip the chat pants. I'm gonna give you the answer that the Internet doesn't want to hear.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Okay.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And the answer is I worked really hard.

[Joanna Cole]

Okay.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Yeah.

[Francesca Ramsey]

How?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Just I do. I do Pilates. I would do it one hour a day, maybe four times a week, like, with a trainer. And I didn't really drink much, which is the other thing no one wants to hear. But I really worked at it with the focus of getting back in shape. And I know we're not supposed to, as women say that, we're supposed to just embrace it, but I. The standard for myself is I want to feel good and I want to look good, and that's the way I want to look. And I wanted to wear those pants.

[Joanna Cole]

So I did goal pants, rock star pants.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But. But also, it's so part. Your physicality is so part of the show. You can't not look at you when you're up there. So the work is incredible. The work was worth it.

[Joanna Cole]

Literally prowl the stage. I I loved your special so much.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Thank you so much. Samantha. Be a very high praise.

[Joanna Cole]

I've been a huge fan for a long time.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It's not high praise. She says this all the time. She's like, I'm a big fan. Big fan.

[Joanna Cole]

I listen to. I actually watched your special last night in the kitchen and I was so glad that because I have three. You have two kids? Two kids. I have three. One. And they're all kind of teenagers now, so my 14 year old was there and she was listening to the special too. And I was like, this is. Your voice is so true and so clear and. And I was really happy that she was. Because you talk so much about body image and I actually think you talk about it in such a healthy, like, totally well rounded way.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Thank you.

[Joanna Cole]

I was like five. Yes. I'm glad it's here.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And there's a moment where, by the way, did you see what she did that night? You've got two children. I've got three. I've got three. It's a competition.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah, it's a competition. Breastfed best.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Not me.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But there's a bit in the show where you have a very funny joke which I don't want to spoil for people if they haven't seen it.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Spoil it. Tease them.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But. Well, it involves you doing squats across the stage. And I was just. I was breathless. A, the joke is so funny and B, the physicality of it is incredible.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Thank you. Yeah, yeah, it's. I do think as a performer because at the end of the day, we are artists and we are performers. And I believe in putting on a performance. This is not a choice that I make. This is like a physical manifestation of the dialogue in my head. And so it comes out. I am not. I work out, but I'm not an athlete. I didn't go to school and play sports at a high level. I mean, I play sports growing up, but I'm a very physical comedian.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Not pratfalls, but just in terms of. And I think anybody who's like a theater actor would get this. Just embodying, like it. And that's why I'm always like hunched over. Like, I so badly want the audience to get what I'm getting, to see what's in my head. And so those squats, just sometimes you need to illustrate it with your body.

[Joanna Cole]

Well, it was so well done organically. Comes out of your body. I like, remember in theater school that I had a movement teacher who was like, make sure you feel your back, like. And it was I never, ever forgot that. It was like, I feel you very three dimensionally in this space.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

You're also over 30. You're like, I'm always feeling my back.

[Joanna Cole]

I'm feeling it. But like. And you, you can see yourself really feeling up. What is your. So what is your prospect? Like, how do you actually work an hour? Like, what does that look like in your life?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

So obviously every comic is different. I write my own material in that it is all mine and I create it, but I don't write it like, down. Okay, so it's all mental. I might write down a word or two to jog my memory.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

But I get up a lot and we were talking.

[Francesca Ramsey]

What do you mean you get up?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Sorry. I go on. I do sets, run sets, like locally. So I live in la. So multiple, multiple nights a week for multiple shows a night. You will find me at the Comedy Store or the Improv or some alt venues, which I love. Love an alt venue, love a curve ball of an audience. And I just run these ideas and I run chunks. You do 15, 20 minutes at a time. If I want to run the hour, I can. So you're constantly rehearsing it, but with the intention of finding nuances, cracks, what works, what doesn't. Tags, adding on, and it's constantly morphing. And then I string those together and that becomes the hour. So the old hour starts to fall away and I start putting in new pieces.

[Joanna Cole]

Okay.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

As I tour. So by the end of the tour, you have this brand new hour that then you run over and over and over toward the end of the tour. And then you tape it.

[Joanna Cole]

Right, Right, right, right.

[Francesca Ramsey]

So when you tape the Amazon Prime Special, none of that's written down. You just get up there and you remember it all because you've just honed and honed and honed it.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

That is not written written down.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Wow.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Like, the jokes are not written out in full anywhere. Right. Might be like a set list that just says, like, you know, the millennial Gen Z thigh meat paper. Like just words that just shower sex. That look. Yeah, just that look like a cryptic serial killer list. But it's just that set list and the order. And I see the order in my head and I do it, but it's not written down anywhere, which is. So I write a lot of jokes, but I also forget a lot of jokes. Like we have this one.

[Francesca Ramsey]

As you get older, you will forget more.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I. I'm feeling it and I believe you. But it's difficult because you, you know, you try to record Yourself. But like, I had this one joke that other people on my team, they're always like, remember the Las Vegas joke? We loved it. I'm like, I don't like, I can't. It was so good. And I did it for like six months and now I can't. I'm like asking my husband. I'm like, what did I say about like, I like, look to him as my vault.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Because it's gone. I should write it down.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I love also the way that you're constantly reaching out to the audience and making them feel so involved. It's so interesting. And also, it's not very common to see that. You see. I think you see it more with male comedians than with female. Maybe. But I just love that dialogue you have going with them because it feels so spontaneous and like you're highly intelligently in the moment and it's just exhilarating.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

This is the interview I've been waiting for. Like, this is all I want is to sit with like two women who are smarter than. Than me.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, I don't think I'm smarter than you though. I am. I just want to. We've made a welcome. Welcome. This looks like a puzzle.

[Joanna Cole]

It is kind of a puzzle because we were so inspired by. I can't even remember. I will never remember the name of the Megan Marle show on Netflix. As with. Okay.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Oh, it's not called. Oh, the brand is called as ever. It's a lot of just two word.

[Joanna Cole]

I'm working on my own brand cuz actually that is honey. That comes from. Because I do have a beehive. That is. But it's like. Yeah, yeah, it is.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Is. We ate acres. She plowed with clover a little bit.

[Joanna Cole]

I have a little bit. Well, you on Instagram.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Come on.

[Joanna Cole]

Samantha's bees.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It has to be bees. She's a beast.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Beast.

[Joanna Cole]

I was wondering what is the most bland name I could have for my business?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Sam's Honey.

[Joanna Cole]

Once was. Was once. Something like that.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Was once was. What even is that?

[Joanna Cole]

It doesn't mean anything. It's just two words together that mean nothing.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Oh my God. I love was once.

[Joanna Cole]

It makes me.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, you mean as ever was once. Okay.

[Joanna Cole]

Took me a bit of time to get ever once. Anyways, anyway, the point is we didn't.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Want you to be snack free, so we have some edible flowers for you.

[Joanna Cole]

Because we're all eating flowers now. Okay.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

We love an edible.

[Joanna Cole]

Tell me, what is your Joanna Cole story? You have a secret, basically.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

So I met you because you had the bold type Y. Which you produced, but it was based on your life. Based on your life in publishing. And I met you when I was at Freeform because I had for six episodes, my own late night show on Freeform.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And I. Carrie Burke, introduced us.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Yes, Carrie Burke. Love Carrie Burke. And I remember meeting you, and I was so interested in the way you comported yourself because you have this posh British. British accent, right? This RP accent. And you're so successful and you worked in publishing for Hearst, and you just seem so powerful to me. And so we ended up pitching a show that didn't go anywhere, but we had to deal with Happy Madison. And we pitched this as a TV show, and it was about a woman. This is. This was years ago, before anyone else did it, about who ran a wellness brand. So it wasn't based on you, like, Joanna Cole, like, with me knowing nothing about you. But I was like, the. I want to play a woman who, like, skis and lect and goes to Davos and. But, like, secretly, like, eats garbage. But, like, has a health food brand. Has, like, a wellness brand.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, that. That. Yeah, I do eat garbage.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I wanted it to look like. I'm sorry. It was. I'm sorry. So it was her, but it was her boss. Her boss was the one who would always, like, put her in a place. And the boss was just like, just you just strong and just would be like, you're not invited. Like, just kind of like we're having a meeting behind closed doors about you. Goodbye. And like, just like the woman you want to be. Impenetrable, austere, strong, educated, impeccably tailored suits. This is having met you twice. I was like, I'm gonna design a whole show around what I think she is.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, did you hear that? Did you hear that? I just want that running on my Instagram at all times.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Short hair, $400 haircut, at minimum.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Just minimum. Minimum.

[Joanna Cole]

So funny, because I do feel like.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I've gone all red now. I feel like I've gone red because I'm, like, blushing.

[Joanna Cole]

In the last episode, I called Joanna a street rat because I also feel like a street rat. Like, I feel like there's the undercurrent of this conversation is how hard we all work. We work so hard.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

That's the first time I sat down.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And nobody. And nobody sees it because they see the glow. They think, oh, she just gets up there and, you know, talks for an hour. And I bet I could do that. I'm sure so many people watch that and think, I could do that?

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah. You make it look effortless.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Well, that's. I mean, we watch gymnastics. I'm like, I could. I could do that.

[Joanna Cole]

I can do that.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

You make. That's part of the art of it.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

For whatever you do singing, like, when you watch, like, Celine Dion, that's a random reference, like, or Whitney Houston. I always think of, like the song. The music just falls out of her mouth. And so you're like, I could sing that. It is about making it look. When you see models walk, you're like, what's the art to it? Yeah, but to do it. Well, there is an art to it. And especially standup, which is largely consumed in the dark with a two drink minimum. It's not graceful to the less discerning eye. But there really is like a metaphysical math, almost mathematical art to inflection and intonation. And the way that you're speaking and to whom you're speaking, like knowing your audience and when to make certain jokes and not. And to ride the energy waves.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right. Ride the energy waves.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And comics that have done it a while get that. And it took me a long time to get that because for the first 10 years, you're just hitting them and hoping that this next joke works. And it takes a lifetime to, like, master that.

[Joanna Cole]

When do you think that you, like, stood in your true voice? Do you remember when you were like, oh, wait, I think this is. This feels right. What I'm talking about feels so right right now.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I, you know, I think it's more the response that I got versus me being like. And what I'm saying now is important.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Because, I mean, that's not your voice.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It was more. I had my thoughts and I never thought that they were. I mean, I thought they were funny, but I didn't think anything that I was saying about women and the way we should feel and standing up for women. I didn't think what I was saying was new information. So I always think if I'm thinking it, other women must be feeling this, because there's no way I'm so special that, like these thoughts, like, I'm the only one to think about being an individual or being a feminist or wanting safety for women or whatever it is. And then it started to become. I was just being honest up there.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Because I was raised to speak your mind, and no one had ever told me to sit down. And so. So then it started. The feedback started to become this very feminist message. And then I kind of just leaned into it and I had never used the Word feminist. Growing up, it just wasn't a part of a conversation with my peers, whatever. But we were feminists in that we were educated, going for our goals, not lowering our hand in class, just. It wasn't a conversation because we.

[Joanna Cole]

We're just living it. We're just living it.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Yeah. And you had bad experience with the boys, whatever. But I never. It never occurred to me that a boy should get something that I wasn't getting because I didn't see myself as boys versus girls. If we were all striving for things. And I. I wish that for all women, but it just. So the feedback started to become that I was saying these things, so I was just like, well, here's more of it.

[Joanna Cole]

Right?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And so in this special, I think especially having had these two kids, I'm just like, now you can't tell me nothing. And I am gonna say it. And now I'm older, so I. I can definitely say it in a way that when you're younger, you're, like, positing these messages, but it's like, okay, well, you're still like a young girl. And Even though I'm 42 and I could be older, I feel like I get a lot more than I did in the last special. Like, I just get certain truths and I feel them in a certain way that I didn't before.

[Joanna Cole]

Did you sense, because I did sense this when I had kids, that your time is worth more to you and you kind of of work more efficiently. Did you. Do you feel that at all? Like you.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, because. Especially because your kids are little.

[Joanna Cole]

They're little.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I think I struggle. Like, I. I always want to give people the time of day, and so I get a lot of emails from. And this is like. Like local shows, like, people that want you on their show. You know, a lot of like, hey, I'm running the show. Can you do this? Can you do this?

[Joanna Cole]

Okay.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I never want anybody to feel bad for having reached out, because I know how it feels when you reach out to a celebrity or someone wanting just a little bit of sunshine, and they just don't. So that consumes a lot of my time. It's not about being liked. It's about really just. I do always have the bandwidth to, like, be nice right back. But in terms of.

[Francesca Ramsey]

That's impressive. You're gonna. I mean, it's gonna be hard to do that after this Amazon prime special, and you're gonna be inundated with people, I think.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Yeah. I mean, I guess there's only so many shows and the truth is, if you manage it, you do have the time. But I do. I think a version of what you're asking is I do try to not. I try to avoid things that I think will be painful. Like if I don't want it. Like, if that meeting sounds awful and it's just a hand job of a meeting. Like, just, you know what? I don't need this. And I'm not going to just really trying to avoid certain gig. Certain things if the city is not a great gig. Like, I don't. I don't need to. We don't need to route it with Buffalo. Like, we don't have to go to some weird spring and do a theater of 1500. I try to remember how miserable I've been when I've pushed myself to do things that I didn't want to do.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, that's a good point. I still feel like that now. That every now and then I think to myself, you know what? I actually don't have to do this.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I actually don't have to do that.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Because there's a period in your life where you're saying yes to absolutely everything. Because, you know, it's all cumulative.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And I do feel like I'm still in that in a way, because you kind of have to take chances and take those meetings and do that.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

But to get to that place that Joanna Coles I wrote a character about, place. I want to get to that place.

[Francesca Ramsey]

This is so exciting for me. This is so exciting. Just beside myself. I'm gonna just put it.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Are you beside yourself?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes, this is. This is very exciting.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Just to get to that place where you're like, not only do I not have to, but I don't feel I'm not gonna have any anxiety about having missed out. Right. Because I know it's bullshit.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah. So there's a bit. My favorite, favorite bit in the show is where you run into this fantastic looking guy from Kansas and you do his wife who's coming in, and you go into this kind of animal. Yes. You're slightly doing it now. It was so. I've just never seen anything like it. And I was like, this is so good. And yet when I saw it, it felt very familiar to me. Like, because I understood exactly what you were trying to articulate. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was so good and refreshing and new.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Thank you.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Just new.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I love ugliness. And I never get to talk about it.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And as a woman, if you're an attractive woman, making yourself ugly is not something that we do Often. And you think of like, I think of like Kristen Wiig and she plays that character Judit, who's got like the giant forehead and the little, you know, stuff like that. Ugliness. Ugly characters. I've always gravitated toward them. I always wanted to be a creature, an old witch lady. I love embodying these because there's such humor from that and there's. It's so freeing because you're not worried.

[Francesca Ramsey]

About, am I attractive?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Attractive. And a lot of my standup is ugliness. It's the ugly side of women. The ugly side of men. Ugly characters. A woman with a hump. Just really getting into that because you can't offend anyone because no one really looks like that. And so we all get to. Even someone who is ugly, we all get to laugh at this made up character. And I love embodying that because there's just such a freedom that we as women don't get to experience. Even when you're scrubby and you're in your sweatpants, like, you still maybe put the bun up and want to look kind of nice. So we're always having to answer to that. To being, I hate this, like, fuckable to look, you know, are you attracting someone? Are they judging you? But when you're ugly, when you get to be these ugly characters, like, all I want to do is play a monster in a movie, right? All I want to do is hunch over and be hideous because there's such freedom in it.

[Joanna Cole]

There's total freedom in it. And you know what's interesting is like, you're too young for this. But when you start to enter, like, perimenopause and stuff, it is like a different. It is a different stage of life where you kind of grapple with invisibility on a really tactile level. And it'll be. I'm. I wait that like dozens of comedy.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Specials that you're gonna do that you are gonna do.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

You're not the first woman to say that. Like, I can't wait till you go through menopause so you can write about it. Yeah.

[Joanna Cole]

I think that because your voice is so clear, because you're. Because you talk about like, one of my favorite parts is kind of a long discussion about, like, our own beauty standards for ourselves and who the fuck are we really trying to impress when men just, like, generally don't care if you are wearing, like, they're not really looking at the heels on your shoes. They really don't care. They really just. Just want to have Sex with you.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Yeah.

[Joanna Cole]

And you can pretty much look any old way and they will still want to have sex with you. So what are we actually. Why are we actually torture. Why are we torturing ourselves?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I mean, because when I was younger, I would always hear women who were older. And as I get older, I'm like, you really do need to listen to your elders. Like, as I'm stepping into these roles, I'm like, when you're younger, you're like, I got it. Like, I don't need to hear about your kids, like, your older experiences, because when you're younger, you know everything. But I would always hear women say, women dress for other women. But when you're 26, it's like, no, you're not.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

You're dressing to attract men if you're straight. Right? That's what you're dressing for. And so, you know, you got your boobs out and like you're doing that. And then as I got older, I was like, actually quite recently, I was like, oh, yeah, I want to look nice with those ladies. Because we judge. Not even in a bad way, but it just tells me stuff about you.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And your priorities.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And I'm a pretty. Like, I'm doing a press tour now, so, like, I put on these nails, but I'm a very casual. The way you see me on stage is the way I am kind of person. And what I've really noticed is it is about your priorities. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to look immaculate when you go somewhere. But my. It's about where you place your value. And because I get so much from being funny and stand up, I am fine to go to the grocery store, right? I guess I don't go to the grocery store. My husband goes. But I'm fine to go somewhere with no makeup because this precedent, I'm like, I'm not a model. I'm not trying to convince you that I am. And so if you see that I have sunspots, I guess you're gonna have to get over it. Like, I just.

[Joanna Cole]

She actually writes about it in her last book, which is like, well, you.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Did a very good interview.

[Joanna Cole]

With her own choice words, People want to meet the Brook Shields from Blue Lagoon. And then she shows up and she's like a real three dimensional person. She's a real human being. And she talks about how sometimes she walks into a room and people are literally crestfallen because she just looks like she. Yeah, she's just like a normal, very beautiful woman who is incredibly famous.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But not super smart. Brooke.

[Joanna Cole]

She's not from a movie, but not from a movie.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

But I think that also has to do with. Because there's a difference between, like, civilian experience versus celebrity experience. Right. And even though I'm not famous, I would put myself in the category of someone in the public eye. And the expectation that you are imprinted, and especially for someone who's had a career as long as Brooke Shields, like, you're imprinted in their minds as that child, that character, that actor. People are endlessly disappointed that I'm not taller.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I thought that when you came in, I was like.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Because I'm really curious.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

But I'm like, nope, just a very average height person. Perhaps. I give off, like, a tall energy. But then I, like, feel bad. I'm like, I'm sorry.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I know you're already disappointing. Yeah, yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And usually they don't see. It's usually my voice that comes and then the recognition. Because I usually travel with no makeup and a baseball hat, and they hear it or they recognize my dog. And then my face comes last.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right.

[Joanna Cole]

So funny. People always think I'm going to be mean to them. And then they're like, oh, you are normal, but you're not. Yeah, like normal.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

That's because you're smart. And you dare to try.

[Joanna Cole]

Just daring to try, daring to try.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Daring to try.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Daring to get out of bed, to.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Do a job, to do it well, and to do it on your own terms.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

You're deemed all of these things. I mean, I've gotten. Someone once called me difficult, and I was like, because I asked you to pronounce my last name correctly.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And there. There is a set of standards, and people talk about this, but for women, there is an anger at women who dare to try anything, whether it is wearing those pants, having children, not having children, Anyone who deviates from an expectation, you're vilified for it.

[Joanna Cole]

Can you think of an example? I can think of a really direct example of someone who. I think, like, I watched a studio rehearsal of Pink once. She came to the Daily show and I worked there. And she was so direct with everybody. She was so direct with the sound people. Like, in a way that I. I actually think that I had never seen a woman be before.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Give us an example.

[Joanna Cole]

She wasn't at all mean. She was just direct in the way that a male rock star would be. She was like, I can't hear myself. I need the sound turned up. No, that's not it. I need this. I need this. I need this. And it was like actually totally professional. It was a really. But it was so instructive to me. I was like, she can get what she wants from people. She's direct. She's not trying to people, please here. Because she knows what she needs in order to do the best performance for everybody. So it's a service to herself and everybody.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It's efficient.

[Joanna Cole]

It's efficient. And it was perfectly polished and professional. And it was incredibly instructive about how you can be a civil person and get what you need and what you want.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

So you're labeling it as civil because you're also a host. So you have also done those sound checks. You had to come to the center stage and you've had to. To do a similar version.

[Joanna Cole]

Yes.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And so as a strong, intelligent woman who is not a. You just want to get it done. So you look at that and you're like, absolutely. But a regular person might look at that and be like, well, she wasn't smiling 100. I vibrate with that.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Please. Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

She didn't say please. And like, that also could be her team. But she also does that sound check. Probably doesn't do her own, but still hundreds and hundreds. So she knows. She knows I feel that way if for some. Like, obviously I have a tour manager who does it. But if I come there, I'm like, here's what I need. Here's what I need in the wedges. Here's what I need it bumped down to.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And it's just me waiting for that. And you don't have to be mean about it. But there is something. And even as women sometimes, and I love that you felt that about her. I always have to check myself when I reflexively don't like a woman because I have to be like, is it cuz you're jealous? Is it because you did the thing you wanted to do? Like, did she really do anything wrong?

[Joanna Cole]

It's so interesting. Do you. Can you think of an example? Can you? I mean, I point to that example. It happened so long ago, but it was helpful so much.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, she's fantastic. I love her.

[Joanna Cole]

She's incredible. And like, that was so helpful just to see that. Did you see that around you and that helped you to stand in what you need better, or did you have to learn that over time?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

You have to learn it over time. I had to learn it over time. And you also learn by mistake. You know, sometimes you do have to plaster it on and make sure to thank every single person. Yes.

[Francesca Ramsey]

With that smile. Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Because there will Be someone who's like, well, she had an attitude. Just because you advocated for yourself, you can't have a bad day. And there is a civil way to go about it. But I think if you're lucky to have a long career, and you only get a long career by. By doing the work and actually having a voice. And we talked about this.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

To surround yourself with people who get you right. So that you can be more efficient. If you're doing a talk show or something, you don't have the time to handhold. And also, it's a great lesson as a younger girl to, like, grow a thick skin.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It is not personal. It rarely is personal. And I always have to relearn that lesson because I always think, like, I've hurt. Like, someone's mad at me, and it's like, no, they're. They're off their meds. Like, it's not you. And so it's. It's hard because you want to be liked.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well. And also, I think you want to get better, and you don't. I think women take failure more personally or take criticism more personal. More. More personally. But. But I'm sure there are lots of young women who look at you and think, I want to do that. I could do that. So your message to them is to say, you just have to keep doing it every day. Every day, just be out there doing it.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

You have to do the work.

[Joanna Cole]

You have to do the work.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I did a documentary. It's on Amazon. It was from a while ago. It's called over and Over. And it is about the hours that go into do you do it over and over? You do it when you're sick. You do it when you're heartbroken.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Good day, bad day. Because you have to love the work. If you are not in love with the art that you're doing or the work that you're doing, you won't go far. And so I do think we see a lot of that where someone did something, it hit on social media, and now they're just like, I guess I'm the person that puts the ham on the bread now. And you're just like this robot. So you have to not be able to function without it.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Like when the pandemic hit and I couldn't do stand up, it was, like, weird, because that was the one consistent thing in my life for so long. But I'll get up at a bar, I'll get up in an arena, I'll get up at a jazz club. It doesn't matter, because I really. I always have to remind myself how much I love the work.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah, I love. I love that. I actually, that's the most. I feel like a career and a life and an art form that you. That is totally portable. Like, you've made this. This portable business that wherever you go, that business goes, and you can do that anywhere. And you always. Yeah, you just need a microphone.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Sometimes you don't even get one.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah, well.

[Francesca Ramsey]

And also, what's nice is at your stage, too, at this stage, A, you've got tons of Runway left, but B, you're being really appreciated and fated for it, which is also nice. And given the platform. Right. Because there are a lot of people who probably feel like they would like the platform you have, and you've. I'm not saying you. In any way, you don't deserve it, but what's great is you finally got the platform, so now you can sort of think about what you're going to do next.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I appreciate that because from. I feel like I don't.

[Francesca Ramsey]

So I'll take that huge Amazon Primetime special, which, when I go on Amazon prime, is the first thing that comes.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Up, because I was wondering about that algorithm, and I was wondering if it hit for everyone.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It definitely.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

You know, I think as artists, too, we're always striving at, like, well, why can't I have this other thing that seems so easy for other people? Why can't I fill this tour, this arena, this thing, like, quicker? And you see people just skyrocketing past you? And I see people who have been doing it less, and they are at places now that I worked my whole career to get to. And so it's not an anger, but it is just abject, constant disappointment. And so that also fuels this constant drive.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right? Constant drive. The drive is so interesting, isn't it?

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah, the drive, yes.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I mean, it doesn't go away, unfortunately.

[Joanna Cole]

Like a prey drive. Like a prey drive. Like a beast. Like a beast of the week.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Like a weak beast. Yeah, a weak beast. The beast of the week Beast.

[Francesca Ramsey]

You are beast of the week.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I want to call.

[Francesca Ramsey]

There's only been 22 of them.

[Joanna Cole]

Oh, my God. Your next special should be just called Beast.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It could be. Yeah. Totally different. Animal. Beast. You're a beast.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I fucking should have called. God, I'm really regretting it now.

[Joanna Cole]

No, that's the next one.

[Francesca Ramsey]

That's the next one.

[Joanna Cole]

Don't take it. You got to get the Instagram handle right now.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Just go grab it. I really need some honey, actually.

[Joanna Cole]

Oh, great. Well, you can drink.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I can't sort of reach.

[Joanna Cole]

No, it's too. You're trapped. You're trapped.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I'm trapped. I'm trapped by honey.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It never comes out in the right amount. You want. It always over drips and then it's sticky.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Why haven't you bought one of them, those wooden things with like.

[Joanna Cole]

I don't. I am not that organized. I am not that organized.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Are quite organized. You say you're not organized, but you are organized. You've got flowers.

[Joanna Cole]

I don't have a. I don't have my honey dripper. I don't have honey dripper.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Is that what. You can't give your address, but is this like an upstate.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I'm going to give you a Dr. I'm good. Yes. She lives at, like, a little.

[Joanna Cole]

We bought a house one hour outside of the city. We. Because we. I mean, Joanna does not want me to continuously bring this up, but we did grow up in Canada, so we always. When we moved to New York, we.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Were like 51st state.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah, well, 51st. We were always like, we need a place.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Run for governor of Canada.

[Joanna Cole]

You'd be a good governor.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Governor of Canada. You'd be great as governor of Canada.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Yeah.

[Joanna Cole]

I think the Canadians will really warm to that idea.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

She's like, as a British person, I don't pay attention to our colonies.

[Joanna Cole]

We don't know what our colonies are up. Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Maybe run for something thing more local. Perhaps not in Canada.

[Joanna Cole]

I love the work that I do. I find it very satisfying. I love to talk about menopause and. Oh, that would be good. I think it's very. I actually want to go back to something you were talking about because, like, I have that too. It's actually very challenging to, like, look around and see the spectrum of people who are working and where they are in that. And how do you. How do you settle that in your own self? Like, what is helpful to you as an exercise?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I'm not good at it.

[Joanna Cole]

Okay.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

So I'm not gonna sit here and pretend. I'm not gonna give you these aphorisms. Like, you just have to love yourself. Like. Yeah, that's a lie. Yeah. I always return to the work.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Always having a project that you're hopeful for.

[Joanna Cole]

Right.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Always having a role that I can envision myself in writing. I wrote a movie. I wrote Good on Paper that's on Netflix. And that movie was special to me. Not just because I lived it and it was a crazy story, but because every time I didn't get the role, every Time I didn't get the thing that they promised in the meeting. Every time I didn't get a second season of a show that I poured my heart into, I would return to that document and I would fantasize and I would write and I could have all the control I wanted in that document. And on stage standup is a meritocracy. I don't need an executive to greenlight it. I can just do it. And the audience dictates. And like, I. Our special launched yesterday and I was having a really hard day. It was just. It was just not going mentally the way that I had hoped. And it was supposed to be this very special day, like a Christmas morning thing. And it just. For some reason this time around, I just something. I just felt very bad and I dropped in at the Cellar and I just got to do 15 minutes. Ah. And it was like this reminder of, like, that's what you do, but that's why you feel better.

[Francesca Ramsey]

This is also very helpful because it's those moments when. Which are built up in culture and you think, oh, this is going to be, as you say, a Christmas morning. My. My specials dropped on Amazon. It never feels like.

[Joanna Cole]

No, you.

[Francesca Ramsey]

What you think it's going to feel like. No, no, it's absolutely. I feel like whenever one has moments like that that are supposed to be iconic moments, it never ends up feeling like that.

[Joanna Cole]

And I really appreciate that you said that it wasn't a great. I mean, I wanted to.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I know.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I wish that you had come. I wish we could have done this yesterday so we could have cheered you up.

[Joanna Cole]

Actually. I actually love talking about when things are hard and when things are disappointing. It's very difficult, actually, because often the public only wants to talk about, like, the celebrate. They're like, he must be incredible. He must be. So he must feel amazing right now. And often those moments that everybody is projecting onto are actually, like, kind of dark. And I can see how it's made. They don't see like the. Yeah, like how the sausage was made.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

There's also. And I don't know, having had your own show, if you carry this with you or how many times before you had that you were correspondent, you tried to get your own show. But I start to. I'm very good at compiling a list of reasons why I've been wronged and a list of reasons all the times before we're bad. So a list of reasons of how I already know this will be awful. So why don't you guys know that already?

[Joanna Cole]

Interesting.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

And I really do my best to like not share that. But so if one thing didn't go well, I mean the interviews were all great, the press was great, but just feeling so bad and I was just like, that's right, this isn't gonna work. Because the last time they said that they would do this for you and they didn't. And I'm not gonna do it again. And you're stupid to think that they will. And just it starts to spiral the loop and you make up a story loop of doom. And because if you're an intelligent woman, because you always have to be ahead of the curve, I start to, you start to think, well, like you have to be ahead of this. So you know, it's not a self fulfilling prophecy. But I'm like, I need to call it out that this isn't gonna work and this isn't gonna be successful because last time it wasn't. So I'm just letting everyone know that I called it. And it's like, but that's not what's happening. But your story is so important to you because if you're not right about your story, then you're not intuitive and you're not smart. Does that make sense?

[Joanna Cole]

It totally makes sense. And I think that going back to creation, like, like going back to the creation, going back to the creativity is like very instructive because that's the nut, that's the whole thing. Like the whole thing is creating something. So all of that, it's not that it goes away, but if you can go back to like the pure art form, that's the best part. And then you can kind of. It helps release.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It's the best part.

[Joanna Cole]

It's the best part like the day felt.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

So I also was like, I want this special to be a special as I can't control it, I can't control who watches it or if anyone's gonna care or write about it. And we put our, we did everything. And I just, I think in a weird way I wanted it to drop at midnight and by 6am when I opened my phone, I wanted to be like, it's the biggest special in the world. Everyone watched it before work. I just had put so much pressure on it.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Okay.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Because I wanted it to. I do. And it still can be. I mean, this is the second day do so well. And so I just created this weird like personal hell all day. But it wasn't until I got on stage and did that 15 minutes that I was like, okay, that's who you are.

[Francesca Ramsey]

This is very it's such a helpful thing to hear other people go through this.

[Joanna Cole]

It's so fucking helpful. I think it's the most helpful thing. Like, it is not helpful for me to hear that everybody's like, perfect. I don't like it. I love hearing about the. It helps me feel normal to hear about difficulty.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I thought it was perfect. I thought it was perfect. I love doing it. I'm so grateful you came in to talk to us.

[Joanna Cole]

So great.

[Francesca Ramsey]

You're welcome back anytime.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

It's. You guys are awesome. This is like having a real interview with real intelligent like, this just feels so good. So thank you.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Good. Well, I wish we'd had it yesterday so we could have cheered you up.

[Joanna Cole]

But you know what? It's really goddamn great. It's really like. It's like a gem.

[Francesca Ramsey]

We need those pants. We need to get those pants. I want to have them made, and I want to wear Goal.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

You could. You've got long legs.

[Joanna Cole]

You definitely do it well.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

I think of you as a long.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I wouldn't be able to face. Thank you. I wouldn't be able to button them up, but I might be able to. If all it takes is four hours of Pilates a week, I could do that.

[Joanna Cole]

I don't think that's all it takes.

[Francesca Ramsey]

No, I don't think that's all it takes.

[Joanna Cole]

There's more to it.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

My pilot. You love Pilates and working out. You have a private trainer.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, my God.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Please sign. I will get you the document.

[Francesca Ramsey]

You have to get that?

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Yeah.

[Francesca Ramsey]

All right. We have to wrap up.

[Joanna Cole]

Yes.

[Francesca Ramsey]

We're not going to because you've got hundreds more interviews to do.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

But not as good as this.

[Francesca Ramsey]

No, not as good as this. Actually, it won't be as much fun. Sorry, but it won't. But please, can you put some honey and a flower.

[Joanna Cole]

I can't reach it. I'm trapped. My arms aren't long enough.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Pilates. It's a perfect shirt. I think it's perfect. If you have been. Thank you for listening and if you enjoyed this episode, please, like, subscribe. Definitely comment and I will try and respond, and Eliza might respond to and share it with everybody you know and you don't know. As we've said before, strangers on the.

[Joanna Cole]

Subway keep sending those emails to beastpod@the dailybeast.com. joanna's reading all of them.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I am reading all of them.

[Joanna Cole]

Drop us a comment on YouTube. Joanna's literally reading them, and she'll get back. I'm engaging.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I'm engaging.

[Joanna Cole]

It's crazy.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I know she thinks that mad. But I am engaging and Eliza engages, so that's good.

[Joanna Cole]

Yeah.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Beast of the Week if you're not a subscriber to the Daily Beast, why not? It's easy to sign up. Just go to the Daily Beast.com as.

[Joanna Cole]

My muse is once again saying, everybody get out there and be best be Beast. I'm sorry. Beast threw it up every time.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, perfect. Perfect ending. The Daily Beast.

[Joanna Cole]

Thank you so.

[Francesca Ramsey]

So let me do one more line. One more line.

[Joanna Cole]

So excited.

[Francesca Ramsey]

The Daily Beast. Oh, my God. The Daily Beast podcast is produced by Sarah Demakov, Svea Baron Reinstein, Jesse Cannon, and Seamus Calder, edited by Deanna Chapman and engineered by Johnny Simon.

[Eliza Schlesinger]

Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron here, host of WTF with Marc Maron on Acast. I've been doing this show a long time, more than 15 years. Research shows that 74% of listeners recall the brands they hear when listening to podcasts. So if you're a business owner or marketer and you want your business to be top of mind, podcast advertising with Acast is the way to go. Run podcast ads with acast by visiting go.acast.commarc.