I’ve Seen Epstein Pics of Trump With Topless Girls

Summary

Inside Trump's Head

Episode: I’ve Seen Epstein Pics of Trump With Topless Girls
Hosts: Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles
Date: October 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles dissect the psyche and recent actions of Donald Trump, focusing on his obsession with recognition like the Nobel Peace Prize, the ongoing political fallout from the Jeffrey Epstein scandal, and the performative aspects of his politics. Wolff shares, for the first time on record, that he has seen photographs of Donald Trump with topless young women taken by Jeffrey Epstein, sparking discussion about their existence, the political maneuvers to conceal them, and the broader culture of stagecraft in Trump’s orbit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Donald Trump’s Nobel Peace Prize Obsession

[03:27-11:24]

• Trump’s fixation with accolades and being recognized—specifically, his ongoing hope of winning the Nobel Peace Prize.
• Wolff: “If he doesn't get it, the leap that he immediately makes is they haven't given it to him, is that he's been cheated out of it. Of course.” (09:18)
• Comparison to Obama as an additional motivator.
• Satirical commentary on Trump’s claims of “ending seven wars,” including conflicts that “weren’t even at war with each other.”
• The duo speculates on the Nobel Committee’s decision-making and Trump’s knack for making every situation about himself.

2. The Jeffrey Epstein-Donald Trump Photos

[12:27-22:42; esp. 14:08-21:21]

• Michael Wolff reveals he has seen explicit Polaroids of Trump with topless young women at Epstein’s Palm Beach home:
  • “There were specifically three that I remember... two in which topless young women... are sitting in Trump's lap... around the swimming pool.” (19:06)
  • In a third, a stain on Trump’s trousers causes the girls in the picture to laugh and point.
  • Epstein handled these as party tricks, laying them out “like a deck of cards,” and secured them in his safe.
  • Attempts by Wolff to encourage Epstein to use the photos after Trump was elected were rebuffed out of fear: “I may be such and such, but I'm not crazy.” (20:27)
• The chain of custody for the Epstein files remains unclear. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse questioned Pam Bondi during an oversight hearing about the photos; she evaded the question aggressively, refusing to confirm or deny knowledge of them—what Wolff calls “stonewalling.” (14:08)
• The status of the photos after Epstein’s 2019 arrest and death is unknown.

3. Political Stagecraft & Congressional Oversight

[22:42-34:32]

• Joanna and Michael analyze the performative nature of modern politics, especially around Trump and his legal/professional defenders:
  • Testimonies before Congress are now “stagecraft events,” driven just as much by audience perception as substantive answers. (30:09)
  • Michael shares that Trump pushes his lawyers to use personal attacks (“attack, attack, attack. You have to call them out. You have to tell them that they're scumbags”). (32:12)
  • Trump’s communication style is highlighted as defining for his circle, influencing even people like Pam Bondi.
• The “audience of one”—the idea that much political theater is ultimately for Trump’s approval.

4. The Trump Doctrine: Dominance, Submission & Law-and-Order

[35:00-46:08]

• Trump’s use of the National Guard in cities like Chicago and Washington, staged for TV as a demonstration of power.
  • Governor J.B. Pritzker openly accuses Trump of dementia, comparing him to Biden, questioning both’s cognitive fitness.
• Trump’s need to demonstrate dominance, even when no clear policy goal exists, is emphasized:
  • “We don't really know, and we would be hard pressed to say, what's the measure of success here? What is the goal? To get rid of crime. Okay, well, good luck with that.” (37:27)
• Discussion of crime statistics—perception versus reality—and the Republican penchant for using law-and-order as a wedge issue.

5. The Fate of the Epstein Files & Congressional Stonewalling

[26:07-31:47]

• After Epstein’s death, unclear what happened to his evidence.
  • Jurisdictional confusion between local, federal, and Justice Department efforts.
  • Wolff: “Who has this where, and in what form?” (26:40)
  • Pam Bondi and the FBI head both refuse to answer about the existence/status of the Trump Epstien photos.
• Joanna urges listeners to read the Daily Beast’s coverage of Bondi’s notes—premeditated attack strategies shown in her own handwriting.

6. Democratic Party Infighting & Public Messaging

[39:13-48:56]

• Pritzker’s call for Democratic unity and more aggressive responses to Trump.
• Discussion of whether Biden or Trump displays more signs of cognitive decline, referencing Dr. John Gartner’s appearance on a prior episode.
• Relation to the ongoing government shutdown and the Democrats’ struggle to control the narrative, especially on healthcare.

7. Miscellaneous & Teasers

[52:01-end]

• Lighthearted banter about their audience, comments, and production team.
• Teaser for next episode: Michael’s theory on Melania Trump’s sudden reappearance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Michael Wolff on the Epstein Photos:
  “I am one of the people who has seen these pictures, and these are pictures that Jeffrey Epstein would take, take out of his safe and kind of display on his dining room table, almost as you would playing cards. This amused him to have these pictures.” (14:08)

• Joanna Coles, stunned at the Epstein story:
  “I just had a moment there where my breath left my body. Let me hear that one more time. You met the head of the Nobel Prize Committee at Jeffrey Epstein’s house?” (07:49)

• Michael Wolff on Trump’s worldview:
  “If there's something to be had which he thinks is to his advantage, then he wants it. Why wouldn't he want it?...Other people have gotten this. Why can't he get this award?” (08:56)

• Joanna Coles, on pre-planned aggressive responses:
  “And these were notes of attack that she'd actually written down, which a photographer rather brilliantly managed to take a snapshot of... She went on full attack instead of answering the question.” (13:40)

• Michael Wolff, on Trump’s insistence on public confrontation:
  “And it was always his demands: attack, attack, attack, attack. You have to call them out. You have to tell them that they're scumbags.” (32:12)

• Michael Wolff, on law-and-order as theater:
  “Law and order as an issue, especially for Republicans, has been a traditional winner... Trump sets this up and kind of smart sets this up. You know, this is about law and order and then leaving the various blue state governors to talk about constitutional process.” (46:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:27] — Framing Trump’s place among politicians and fixation on recognition
• [06:14-11:24] — Trump’s Nobel Peace Prize ambitions and feelings of being cheated
• [12:27-22:42] — Oversight Committee on Epstein; Michael Wolff details the Trump pics
• [30:09-32:12] — Congressional performance and Trump’s aggressive tactics
• [35:00-39:13] — National Guard in cities; law & order theatrics; accusations of dementia
• [46:08-48:56] — Crime stats, PR battle over shutdown, and Democrats’ tactical weaknesses
• [52:01] — Listener engagement; Melania Trump teaser

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Tone & Style

• Candid, irreverent, dryly humorous: Both hosts frequently punctuate their analysis with wry jokes, disbelief, and skepticism, especially when recounting Trump’s claims or the absurdities of recent ‘stagecraft.’
• Insider perspective: Wolff’s anecdotes, especially about Epstein and Trump, convey both authority and a sense of being weary-but-fascinated observers.
• Bantering partnership: Wolff and Coles riff off each other, alternating between depth and levity.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This conversation is a deep dive into the psychology and performance of modern political power, with uniquely unfiltered insights about Trump's actions—as observed by the man who (allegedly) saw what no investigator or lawyer has: Trump in embarrassing, potentially incriminating Epstein photographs. The episode sheds light on Washington's 'stagecraft,' Trump’s obsession with perception and dominance, and the ways both his allies and opponents attempt to navigate the chaos he creates.

Teaser: Next episode promises analysis on Melania Trump’s unexpected return to the public eye.

---

Transcript

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[Michael Wolff]

Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go?

[Julie Koehler]

Thank you so much.

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[Michael Wolff]

I once met the head of the Nobel Peace Prize Committee at Jeffrey Epstein's house.

[Joanna]

Why was he there? Was he there to raise money for the Nobel Prize Committee?

[Michael Wolff]

I literally don't know. And that was often the case at Jeffrey Epstein's house. You would meet these people and you think, what are they doing there? What is going on?

[Joanna]

Michael Wolff, Excellent to you. Even though we are not, sadly, in the same studio, I don't think that.

[Michael Wolff]

Makes a difference anymore. The whole world is remote to each other. We don't acknowledge that.

[Joanna]

I suppose that's true.

[Michael Wolff]

But I do bush league.

[Joanna]

But I do like. I'm sorry to be bush league, but I do quite like being in the studio with you because I feel like we have fun. But I'm also reassured by the number of books you have behind you.

[Michael Wolff]

And why do you find that reassuring?

[Joanna]

A signaling of erudition, I think.

[Michael Wolff]

I see.

[Joanna]

I have no idea if you've read them or not, but it's surprising to me how many people comment on how much they like your bookshelves. They pull out single titles and want to discuss them. And again, I just want to thank everybody for their comments. Thank you very much for your comments. Wishing me a speedy recovery from my hip surgery. I appreciate there are other people out there who've also had hip surgery recently, it turns out. So we are, we are convalescing together, as it were. But again, just so many comments, appreciating, Michael, your depth in trying to understand this strange character who stands astride the world at the moment, Donald Trump, which is just a reminder of why twice a week we try to get in there, we try to get inside Donald Trump's head and understand what is triggering him this week because the rest of us feel the fallout.

[Michael Wolff]

I think it is part of the pervasive feeling in the, in the country and has been for, for quite some time in its. It is different from the way we feel about all other politicians and all other politicians are. We basically take them for what they are. But this particular politician, Donald Trump, is so out of anyone's experience that we don't know why he does what he does, why what is happening is happening or what will happen tomorrow.

[Joanna]

Right. And also I think it's fair to say the opposition is still trying to figure out how to deal with him because he is, as you say, just so completely out of sync with how we think of as politicians. You said on the podcast on Tuesday that politicians should be boring, they should be policy led, they should be just focused on getting things done. And so many people responded in the comments saying thank you for saying that. We're not looking for performers here. We don't need actors, we need people who just can run things.

[Michael Wolff]

Absolutely. But the problem is when you get someone who does the opposite, basically the opposite of that or something that is singularly disaligned with that way of behaving. How do you approach that? How do you counter that? How do you explain that? Which the Democrats have been at a singular disadvantage so far?

[Joanna]

Well, I noticed, I mean, we've talked about this before and obviously everybody has noticed Governor Gavin Newsom's nicknames and leaning into some of Trump's own tactics. And I noticed this week he called Pam Bondi, the head of the doj, and as we like to remind people, formerly Trump's personal lawyer, he called her pedophile protector Pam, which seemed a bit of a mouthful. If I were him, I might have shrunk it to pedo protector Pam. But again, trying to lean into some of the.

[Michael Wolff]

I go to pedopropro Pam.

[Joanna]

Peter Probabam yeah, maybe that. That'. Swell. We should talk about the. Over. We should talk about the oversight committee looking into Epstein. Before we do that, I just wanted to say, what do you think is going on inside Donald Trump's head as he prepares for his triumphant tour of the Middle east, knowing that tomorrow is the announcement of the Nobel Peace Prize?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think that is central to what he's thinking right now. So the interesting thing will be if he not get the Nobel Peace Prize. So the fact that he may be bringing peace home from the Middle east, and I emphasize may. May really emphasize will be. Will turn to char in his mouth if he does not get the prize.

[Joanna]

Well, how could he not get the prize, Michael? I mean, come on. He's ended seven wars, some with countries that weren't even at war with each other.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, yes, yes. So anyway, he will not get the Nobel Peace Prize. Now, I could be proved, I suppose, terribly wrong tomorrow. And as we have seen through so many institutions in so many walks of life, they do bow to Donald Trump. Why, that's the long conversation. But will the Nobel Peace Prize Committee bow to Donald Trump? I would say no, but we'll see.

[Joanna]

But is his covetous desire.

[Michael Wolff]

Let me Just a small digression here. That I once met the head of the Nobel Peace Prize Committee at Jeffrey Epstein's house.

[Joanna]

Okay, breath.

[Michael Wolff]

Just a small digression.

[Joanna]

I just had a moment there where my breath left my body. Let me hear that one more time. You met the head of the Nobel Prize Committee at Jeffrey Epstein's house?

[Michael Wolff]

I did indeed.

[Joanna]

And what were they talking about?

[Michael Wolff]

And that was like, oh, well, you know, what do you do? Oh, I'm the head of the Nobel Peace Prize Committee.

[Joanna]

Well, and was Jeffrey putting up one of his friends for it? Why was he there? Was he there to raise money for the Nobel Prize Committee?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I can't answer this. I mean, I can't answer this. Not because I won't answer this, but because I literally don't know. And that was often the case at Jeffrey Epstein's house. You would meet these people and you think, what are they doing there? What is going on? So I don't know.

[Joanna]

Is Trump desperate to get one because Obama got it? Is this just sort of presidential competition?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think Trump wants what he wants. If there's something to be had which he thinks is to his advantage, then he wants it. Why wouldn't he want it? He' sand why wouldn't. In his mind, why shouldn't he get it? He is the president of the United States. He is Donald Trump. Other people have gotten this. Why can't he get this award?

[Joanna]

Well, maybe because he's employed the National Guard on his own people in cities.

[Michael Wolff]

Back in the US we can all say why he should not get this award. Absolutely. But to him, in his mind, it's, why should he, why shouldn't he get it? And if he doesn't get it, then the leap that he immediately makes is they haven't given it to him, is that he's been cheated out of it. Of course.

[Joanna]

It's just. And also, why would the Swedes and the Norwegians want to cheat him out of it? I guess it depends. If it doesn't go to him, and I mean, as you say, who knows? I wonder who else it goes to. Has anybody else stopped seven new wars?

[Michael Wolff]

It's not going to go to him. It will not.

[Joanna]

Okay, so I wonder who it does go to, because they're not going to have stopped seven wars. I mean, remember, he stopped the war between Ukraine and Russia on his first day. On his first day within 24 hours. And it wouldn't have started. I mean, the other thing is none of these wars would have started had he been president.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. This is, I mean, Donald Trump is a, is a, is a preposterous figure and says preposterous things. But, but were he to bring an end to the slaughter in Gaza, and so the question is, would that make him, despite all other Trumpian ridiculousness, would that make him a reasonable candidate in the pantheon of people who have, who have brought us, who have significantly bettered the world, saved lives, manage to restore some order, sanity, et cetera, et cetera?

[Joanna]

And is it possible that Steve Witkoff, his envoy, that, as you have pointed out, real, well, at least we assumed real skill, was in real estate development, largely in downtown Manhattan. What if it turns out that Steve Witkoff was actually a diplomat in hiding all along and he just missed his way?

[Michael Wolff]

Steve Whitcoff is one of the great dummies of all time. Can he transform that into diplomatic genius? I can't even go down that road. I mean, let's. I don't want to, I don't want to go too far down this road because I really. So many people, in so many instances, so many American presidents have gotten, have been ended up as dupes for peace in the Middle east that I think we ought to give this at least a few hours to see what actually is happening there.

[Joanna]

Well, he appears to be getting on a plane to go out to the Middle East. This weekend. Meanwhile, the Oversight Committee was meeting this week to discuss all things Epstein. Can you bring us up to date? They in particular talked about photos which I know you've seen.

[Michael Wolff]

I think I was the hidden hand in at least one ofin. A notable confrontation between one of the senators, Senator Sheldon Whitehouse. I always think that's a curious name for a senator, and Pam Bondi, the Attorney General. So Senator Whitehouse asked her about reports of these pictures of Trump and Epstein, and, well, let's get into that in a second. And she responded effectively saying, why are you asking me about pictures? You're the piece of garbage scumbag or something to essentially that.

[Joanna]

Well, and these were notes of attack that she'd actually written down, which a photographer rather brilliantly managed to take a snapshot of. And they were all her attacks on the Democratic senators, including Adam Schiff, once they started asking her questions. And I think for Senator Whitehouse, she had an attack on the fact that you're a friend of Reid Hoffman, you've taken dark money. I mean, she went on full attack instead of answering the question. Does she know if there are photos?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. I mean, very particularly did not answer this question. Did not address this question. Did not answer this question. And this is what used to be called. I mean, in this day and age, it's just business as usual. But what used to be called stonewalling. I can't answer the question because the question will incriminate me or in this case, incriminate the President of the United States. And so she did not. And she did not. And she successfully did not answer the question. But let's just go back and let me just say, because what they're talking about the pictures. Yep, the pictures are pictures. I am one of the people who has seen these pictures, and these are pictures that Jeffrey Epstein would take, take out of his safe and kind of display on his dining room table, almost as you would playing cards. This amused him to have these. These pictures.

[Joanna]

Okay, so, Michael, I want you to set the scene for us. So what time of day is it? Where is the safe? Does he bring them out in a manila folder? Are they in an envelope? Are they in an album? Does it look like his birthday album? I mean, give us more. This is so hard to get your head around that. Here is this man who's on the one hand, entertaining the head of the Note Nobel Prize Committee and the former head of Harvard, Larry Summers. And then in his safe, he has these photos of the President and surrounded by topless girls. I want a Full picture.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, so anyway, this happens. All of Jeffrey Epstein's, or a good part of Jeffrey Epstein's day was conducted around his dining room table. This is a dining room table that would have, I guess, comfortably could seat, you know, two dozen people, maybe. Maybe more baronial, I would describe it as. And in a. In a dining room that was also befitting of this kind of, kind of table. I mean, was a weird kind of, you know, and I kind of got used to this. So I forget the initial shock that I had when I walked into this house and this room. And I remember saying something to Epstein about it, because how could you not? It's just this is not the way other people lived. And I kind of, you know, summoned a compliment or like, wow, this place is incredible. And I remember he. He then took his knuckle and rapped on the wall, and he said, fake. It's all fake.

[Joanna]

And I'm reminding people that you were there at his invitation because he wanted you to write a book about him.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna]

So you ended up spending some time with him because he'd said, just come and hang out at my house. I just want to set the. The table, as it were, metaphorically, so people understand why you were there.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, exactly. And thank you. Thank you. But then our conversation rolled on into when, starting in 2015 and then into 2016, when Trump became what many people obviously were talking about because he was running for president. But. But Epstein was particularly focused because he and Trump had been the closest of friends for more than a decade, and Epstein fancied himself a real Trump whisperer, that he understood Donald Trump. And in my experience, he was one of the people, one of the more insightful people about Trump. And I have spoken to a lot of people about Donald Trump, but at any rate, in the course of one of these discussions about Trump, he left the room and then came back holding in his hands about a dozen Polaroid snapshots.

[Joanna]

Oh, they're Polaroids. They're Polaroids.

[Michael Wolff]

In my mind, they're polaroid. I'm not 100% sure that they were, but they had those. Those crenelated edges, like a Polaroid. You know, that's in. In my. As I say, in my mind, it's. These are. These are Polaroids, but they certainly are snapshots. And. And then he kind of kind of like, like a deck of cards kind of displayed them on. On the table. And there are.

[Joanna]

Are.

[Michael Wolff]

There were specifically three that I rememberand this is now almost ten years ago sobut the three That I remember are two in which topless young womenand I don't know the ages of these women, but they are young, are sitting in Trump's lapand this is outside Jeffrey Epstein's house in Palm beach, around the swimming pool.

[Joanna]

Okay. And is Trump dressed? Is he at what Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

Trump is dressed. And in. And in mind's eye, it's kind of golfy, golf leisure attire. But. And then in the third picture, there is. And so, so he's wearing light pants. There is a. Or tannish pants, and there's a stain on the front of his trousers. And the girls, three, four, four or five, as I remember, are pointing at the stain and laughing. And that is what I remember. And then Epstein would have returned these pictures to the safe, because I actually asked him, where do you keep these pictures? And he said, in the safe. And later, when Trump was elected president, and I tried to encourage Epstein to do something with these, with these pictures, and he said, I can't. Now, I may be such and such, but I'm not crazy. Implying that he had some reason to fear the wrath of Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

And by stain and everybody laughing, are we assuming that Donald Trump was eating a sandwich and somehow mayonnaise slipped out and stained his pants?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. I can't. I'm not making any assumptions here, and I don't want to say more than I know. I do not know, for instance, that these photographs were in the safe when the FBI raided Jeffrey Epstein's house in July of 2019. Is it reasonable that they might have been? Absolutely. I mean, on several occasions, we discuss where he kept those photographs in the safe. And that was the question that Senator Whitehouse was asking Pam Bondi, do you know about these pictures? Have you seen these pictures? What is the status of this? Just trying to get information. And the question that she refused to answer, and this question has also been asked by the Oversight Committee of Kash Patel, the head of the FBI, and he, too, refused to answer.

[Joanna]

So do we assume that the FBI does then, by their omission, do we assume?

[Michael Wolff]

I am. I think it's probably best, as it is always not to assume anything.

[Joanna]

Yeah, I knew you were going to say that.

[Michael Wolff]

We don't know if they were in the safe. We don't know if there was something done with these photographs after, if they were in the safe, if there was something done with these photographs after that. We don't know anything about. I think what they, what they call the chain of custody, and I suspect the chain of custody is quite disorganized in this situation which goes to the problems of the of the so called Epstein file. I mean that's everybody release the Epstein files but nobody knows what the Epstein files are. Is there your manila file? Is that. Does that exist? Is this all, is this information all gathered and contained in one place? Or is the Epstein file a kind of broad metaphor for all of the information the United States government has on Jeffrey Epstein which could be spread out among many departments, agencies and be pretty difficult to gather. And now a word from our sponsors.

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[Michael Wolff]

Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go? I wish I would stop.

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[Hannah Berner]

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[Paige Desorbo]

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[Paige Desorbo]

And the bras? Soft, supportive and actually breathable.

[Hannah Berner]

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[Joanna]

We love our sponsors, but Michael and I are back and we're rattling around Donald Trump's head. So what happens in a situation, as we have with Jeffrey Epstein, who was arrested, the Southern District was proceeding against him. So they must have, they must have a bulk of information. They arrest him when he flies back from France, when in fact, he's supposed to be having breakfast with you the next day, and he then dies. Where does the evidence go?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, we don't know. I mean, maybe somebody, somebody does. We certainly, we certainly don't know. And I, and it's not illogical to, to suppose that, that Pam Bondi doesn't exactly know. She may have asked the question, and she's probably got a set of somewhat ambiguous answers. And what is the, you know, and in terms of the process of bringing all this information together, what the Southern District has, what the, what was, what was obtained in the Florida investigation? And then there's, there's, you know, there's alsothere's, alsothere's the federal investigation in Florida and then there's the local investigation. And he was actually convicted under state, under a state charge and not a federal charge, and convicted. He pled guilty to the state charge. So who has this wear in and in what form.

[Joanna]

And do these, I mean, if you're the Southern District, is it possible you just throw things away once someone's died and you think, well, that's the end of it?

[Michael Wolff]

Who would have, I don't, I have no idea.

[Joanna]

Right. I wonder why the Oversight Committee doesn't reach out, or perhaps they have done to the Southern District and say, we would like everything you have on Jeffrey.

[Michael Wolff]

Epstein theoretically reaching out to the, to the Justice Department. I mean, the Justice Department controls the Southern District, theoretically, although one of the, one of the, the, one of the issues and that was, you know, is certainly involved with Epstein, the Epstein side's thinking about this is that, is that the Southern District was acting not only independently of what's called main justice, but they were possibly antagonistic to it. And their ultimate investigation was or was possibly about the President of the United States, Donald Trump. And they might well have thought that by arresting Jeffrey Epstein they would get a source of information, incriminating information about Donald Trump. We don't know that because not long after his arrest, Jeffrey Epstein was dead. But one of the questions, right, one.

[Joanna]

Of the questions, as you say, so the FBI has stonewalled. Pam Bondi was stonewalling. In fact, she went on the attack, as we know from her notes. And I want, if you haven't read, if you're listening to this or watching this, and you haven't read the story and seen the photos of her handwritten and printed notes about how she's going to go on the attack against Adam Schiff and Senator Whitehouse. It's really worth looking up at the Daily Beast, I urge you, because we covered it really well. And it's fascinating to see someone's handwritten notes, a bit like Kash Patel's, you know, affirmation notes when he went in to face them. It's all sort of planned in advance. And of course, here I am with my notes. So I'm not pretending you shouldn't have notes, but it's just interesting when you see the head of the DOJ go in with pre planned notes.

[Michael Wolff]

All in all, it's important to realize that there's enormous amount of stagecraft that goes into appearing before Congress. I mean, from the outside, it's just, you know, you know, you're a government official and Congress has called you to answer questions. But that's not what's going on here. I mean, it is from both sides, from whoever is conducting the panel, Democrats and Republicans, a stagecraftthis is a stagecraft event. And for the witnesses, it is a stagecraft event. And the stakes are very high.

[Joanna]

Well, and as you are always saying, audience of one, Donald Trump is watching this as if it were a television show. And I couldn't help thinking when he was doing his roundtable on Antifa, that there was stagecraft involved in him sitting there, Pam Bondi sort of, you know, trying to sort of fend off various questions from people. And then Marco Rubio suddenly arriving behind her and presenting Donald Trump with a note as if he was about to announce the winner of the next episode of the Apprentice. And they were slightly shaking it up. And in fact, we saw again the note which said, you know, we need you to approve the truth Social post so you can go out and announce we've secured peace in the Middle East. That all felt very staged, as if Marc Burnett were the producer or were indeed in the ear.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. You know, and the other thing is, I mean, the Pam Bondi appearance and her response, I mean, it was kind of extraordinary because usually there is a, at least the pretense of decorum, of back and forth, of at least seeming to, to be responsive, I think is the term of art. And this was exactly the opposite. This was literally, you're a dirty scumbag or along those lines. And, you know, during theduring Trump's long legal journey, during theduring the campaign, I was privy on several occasions to these interactions with his lawyers. And the lawyers would do what lawyers do, which is to try to not antagonize the judge, to be adversarial, but not making the situation worse. And then Trump would ream them out, just take them apart because of their, any appearance that they might have been relatively civil. And it was always his demands. Attack, attack, attack, attack. You have to call them out. You have to tell them that they're scumbags. And you know, scumbags is kind of a term of art with Trump. All enemies are, or all antagonists are scumbags. You have to say it, call him, call the judge, assume scumbag. So this was Pam Bondi doing exactly, staying exactly in Trump character. This is what heshe understood stands. Obviously this is what he wants. This is what you have to deliver.

[Joanna]

And it seems to stem back or at least the first time I remember it is really the confirmation hearings for Brett Kavanaugh to join the Supreme Court after he'd been accused of sexually assaulting a teenager when he was a teenager, Christine Blasey Ford. And then the feedback from Donald Trump after he'd gotten very, very angry in the seat was that he was doing a great job.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, this is so long ago, I can't quite remember that, but I remember writing about this and I'm not sure you actually have this, this right, because I think that he found Kavanaugh, as I recall, to be a pussy.

[Joanna]

I think on the first day he wasit was a two day hearing.

[Michael Wolff]

Right.

[Joanna]

Or it was a multi day hearing. The first day Kavanaugh didn't know, didn't know what had hit him. And then the second day he came roaring back after, I think, being encouraged to be much more aggressive.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I think that, that, that, that may be right. I remember the pussy part because these, when Trump dresses down people, it is painful and devastating.

[Joanna]

Oh, goodness me. Okay, so let's move on to. In Chicago and Illinois, we have Governor J.B. pritzker saying that Trump has dementia, trying to figure out how to, to deal with the fact the National Guard have rolled into the streets in Chicago, that there was a particularly aggressive move on one particular building where actually Black Hawk helicopters were involved, clearly, again for television cameras. And JB Pritzker's come out swinging saying, enough already, We Democrats have to unite against this. What's your impression of what's going on there?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I think, I mean, obviously the idea of sending troops into American cities is provocative. It is stagecraft also, it is Trump making a point, and we're not exactly sure what that point necessarily is, because it's not as if he is sending, sending troops in to solve a particular and immediate problem.

[Joanna]

Well, he would argue that he's sending them in to clear up the crime in Portland, although they haven't managed to get into Portland because of legal maneuverings. But the crime, especially in South Chicago, is terrible.

[Michael Wolff]

He has this broad thing. There's a crisis, but, you know, but it's not a crisis. It's a, it's a crisis of, you know, I can't even describe what it is because it's not a crisis. It's a condition that is, in this case, an urban condition. So, you know, and in the, in the extremely rare instances where, where the federal government sends in troops, I mean, extremely rare, there is a clear and present danger is going on that obviously is not happening. So we don't really know, and we would be hard pressed to say, what's the measure of success here? What is the goal? To get rid of crime. Okay, well, good luck with that. So on the one hand, we have that the statement that Trump is making, and I think largely the statement is, I can do this.

[Joanna]

These are my troops.

[Michael Wolff]

And I think it's. And I think it's also kind of a threat, but again, a threat to, to what? We don't know. But in the Trump world of dominance and submission, he is expressing his dominant authority now. And then it's a question of how Pritzker responds to this or the governor of any of these particular states. And Pritzker, for his own reasons, here is a man who is of very prominent Democrat, who is a very wealthy Democrat, too, and one of the wealthiest families in the country and who is probably running for president. So the dementia, the dementia charge is an interesting one because, remember, you kind of what works in politics, you just keep replaying it. And it worked against Joe Biden, and so why not try it against Donald Trump? And this does not mean to say it is either true or not true, but it certainly could be true. You know, of the many things that might explain the inexplicable about Donald Trump, the fact that he might have cognitive, cognitive impairments is certainly one.

[Joanna]

And I was going to say we had Dr. John Gartner on the show, on the podcast about three weeks ago, and he went through why he thought Trump was definitely displaying symptoms of dementia, because we've seen him in the public eye for the last 40 years. So there are a lot of ways you can map what Dr. Gardner was arguing was his mental decline. So you have a lot of speech patterns, and speech is often where dementia shows up first of all. And so you can see the decline in his speech patterns, in his vocabulary, and how he speaks to people in his level of aggression. And if you haven't listened to that, I urge people to go and listen to it. It's the Daily beast podcast with Dr. John Gartner. Because it's really a very interesting diagnosis of someone that we see in plain sight.

[Michael Wolff]

Hold that thought, Joanna. And now a word from our sponsors.

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[Joanna]

And we are back. Because I've been holding that thought, but I want to get back into it.

[Michael Wolff]

I think it's, it's a kind of simplistic view. It's, it's, how do we explain Donald Trump, which is a very difficult thing to do. Well, yes, an easy explanation would be, would be that he is off his rocker. And I think that that is partly true. I don't know if it's true because of, because of, because of dementia or because he has always been progressively and peculiarly off his rocker. But these are the kinds of things, and we will probably see this more and more. And as we head toward 2026, what is the case against, against Donald Trump? And Pritzker is stepping forward aggressively to make this case. And he is also saying, calling out other Democrats, you're not, you're not stepping forward forward. You know, you're wilting in front ofin front of this guy. You're trying to rationalize your approach to politics. And that would bethat. Would beyou know, we've seen Chuck Schumer especially do this, although just to remind everyone, the government close down continues to go on. So the background of everything that we said here is a government that is not open for business. So, but at the same time, the government not open for business is invading Illinois.

[Joanna]

Right. And where we hear that, for the most part, the National Guard is actually sort of picking up litter and they don't know what they're supposed to be doing there either.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I mean, that is. And that, and that goes from the top down. What is the mission here? To get rid of crime? Well, that's not a mission. That's a.

[Joanna]

And also, there's a police force to do that. Right. There is actually something in play already set up in all cities to deal with this. So it's not like you need to send in the National Guard.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, exactly. So what is going on here? What does Trump want other than a show of force and a show of his own power? And I think I've just answered my question because that is clearly for Donald Trump, quite enough.

[Joanna]

Well, and I think you've also often made the point that at the center of some of Donald Trump's actions, there is a kernel of truth. And what he's trying to get at here is the sense that some of these cities do have crime problems and they are out of control. And now we know that for the most part.

[Michael Wolff]

But even that is not true. There is urban crime. That is true. But in almost every situation, crime is less than it was. You know, however we want to define the arc, right.

[Joanna]

The data in all the big cities, that is Democratic cities for the most part, is that crime is down. But I think he's drawing on images of sort of rioting in 2020, around the whole George Floyd moment. And, and I am still staggered when I meet people and they hear I live in New York and they go, oh, my goodness, is it safe there? Are you allowed to walk out at night? How do you manage that?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, a law and order as an issue, especially for Republicans, has been a traditional winner. And in a way, you know, I mean, it's an interesting thing because, I mean, Trump sets this up and kind of smart sets this up. You know, this is about law and order and then leaving the various blue state governors to talk about constitutional process. What's the winner there? Law and order or constitutional process? But having said that, you know, then it's this other kind of fascinating thing of demanding that laws be obeyed that basically are not being broken. You know, in Washington, where he sent the troops in, there was, you know, again and again the troops were told to make arrests and they would make arrests because that's what they were told to do. And then judges in the Washington judges would then throw out these arrests. So nothing has been accomplished there.

[Joanna]

So you mentioned the shutdown. Do you think the Democrats are winning that particular PR battle in terms of how the medical insurance premiums are going to go up? I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene has come out and said the Republicans have got this all wrong because her son or her children, I think in their 20s are going to see their premium doubled.

[Michael Wolff]

Imagine being Marjorie Taylor Greene's child.

[Joanna]

But Marjorie Taylor Greene's had two moments, though. You know, she's joined red. No, she's, she's, she's an interesting character. She's an interesting character. Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, I would say she's. She's finger in the wind. We should pay attention to where to where she's to.

[Joanna]

She's something in the wind.

[Michael Wolff]

But actually, according to her weather report. Yeah.

[Joanna]

On her Epstein point and on her medical political insurance point, she's leaning in.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, I think, yes, if I had to say advantage at this point, I would say advantage, minor advantage, the Democrats. But they are falling into what Democrats do, arguing this on fairly narrow policy basis and certainly an important policy. And it will be a shock and a burden to many people when they do find out what this is going to cost them for their health insurance.

[Joanna]

And for a tax break for the rich.

[Michael Wolff]

But having said that, the opportunity here, the opportunity, because you have the attention of the public, is to, Is to, Is to make it stick, make it last. And I think, and I think health care is health care compared against the enormity of everything that Trump is doing on all fronts is weak.

[Joanna]

Is it possible he returns from what we are or what I am? Is it possible that he returns from a jubilant weekend in the Middle east and comes back to the government shutdown and just thinks, you know what? I want this out of the way. We've got to get rid of this now. This isn't feeling good.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, of course it's possible. Everything is possible. I mean, one of the problems with reading Trump is all things are possible, all things. Any reversal, any advance, any doubling down, any. Any falling back.

[Joanna]

Well, well, well, well. We will be watching with great curiosity this weekend, I guess, and, and then see what he says when he comes home. Off, off old Air Force One. I don't think the Qatari plane has, has, have we taken possession of possession.

[Michael Wolff]

But we're still being spending hundreds of millions of dollars to, to debug it. Rehab it. Yeah. Debug, yes.

[Joanna]

Yeah. To debug. Yeah. All right, Michael, well, let's just pay attention. And obviously you'll be my first call in the morning when we find out who's got the Nobel Peace Prize. And as you say, everything's possible. And you ran into Headline Alert, the head of the Nobel Peace Prize committee at Jeffrey Epps. So everything is possible.

[Michael Wolff]

Until next Tuesday.

[Joanna]

Until next Tuesday. Would you like to read us out and remind people to subscribe to the Daily Beast and indeed to our channel and to leave us comments. Because we love the comments.

[Michael Wolff]

We love the comments. We read them. Actually. Actually, Joanna obsessively reads them.

[Joanna]

I do obsessively read them because I, I think of it as reader, listener, feedback. And I know at the beginning you were like, I'm never going to read the comments. And then you started reading the comments and you were like, these are fantastic comments. They're really intelligent. They're thoughtful, they're articulate.

[Michael Wolff]

More, More precisely, Joanna reads them to me. So you get the call. You've got to hear this. You've got to hear it. Well. So please. So please. It's, it's, it is. I mean, they're completely interesting. They're, they're, they're really responsive and I commend everybody. It's a high level of conversation.

[Joanna]

I know what we haven't discussed and I want to discuss, and that is the reappearance of Melania Trump. Should we talk about it more on Tuesday? Because you have a theory behind it. But we would be negligent if we didn't mention the Navy huya that she gave.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I do have a. I do have a theory. And we could leave that as the cliffhanger for Tuesday.

[Joanna]

All right, we will leave it as a cliffhanger for Tuesday. And if I had been more organized, like Pam Bondi, I would have had my notes and I would have seen the word Melania and I would have brought it up earlier. But let's discuss, let's discuss why she's suddenly back in, in the public eye next Tuesday on Inside Trump's Head. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. We're independent media, so we appreciate your support. Please join the Daily Beast community so you get extra time with me and Michael Wolff. And if you haven't been this week, don't forget Bee Beast. And a shout out to our top tier beebeast members. Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel, and Free dc. And thank you to our production team. Michael, can you remember their names?

[Michael Wolff]

No. Deaf and Anna.

[Joanna]

Absolutely unacceptable.

[Michael Wolff]

That's good.

[Joanna]

That's good.

[Michael Wolff]

I can't do last names.

[Joanna]

Deafen, Rotorino.

[Michael Wolff]

But who needs them?

[Joanna]

Everybody needs them. Devon, Rogerino, Anna Von Erson and Jesse. And I know that actually Michael Low, he appears as if he can't remember your name, is extremely grateful for all your support, as am I.

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Julie Koehler]

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