James Carville on Kamala and Trump on Joe Rogan

Summary

The Daily Beast Podcast: Episode Summary Episode: James Carville on Kamala and Trump on Joe Rogan Release Date: October 24, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Daily Beast Podcast, co-hosts Joanna Coles and Samantha Bee dive deep into the current political landscape with special guest James Carville, a seasoned Democratic strategist. Set against the backdrop of an impending election, the conversation navigates the prospects of Kamala Harris's presidential bid and the ramifications of Donald Trump's upcoming interview on Joe Rogan's podcast. Additionally, the hosts touch upon the recent departure of Olivia Nuzzi from New York Magazine amidst a personal and professional controversy.

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Guest Spotlight: James Carville

James Carville, renowned for his pivotal role in Bill Clinton’s 1992 presidential campaign, brings his sharp political acumen to the discussion. As a commentator and strategist, Carville is known for his unfiltered insights and passionate advocacy for Democratic causes.

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Kamala Harris’s Presidential Prospects

The primary focus begins with Carville’s assertive stance on Kamala Harris’s chances in the upcoming election. Addressing questions about why the race remains so tight, Carville emphasizes the importance of focus and action over speculation.

• Quote: "I do not care. I only think of how it ends up... Stay focused on what you have to do for 13 days." [12:41]

Carville criticizes the tendency to overanalyze voter behavior before the actual votes are cast, urging Democrats to concentrate on actionable strategies rather than predictions.

He further discusses the necessity of presenting a clear, singular message to voters, famously encapsulated in his banner phrase, “It’s the economy, stupid.” For Harris, Carville advises leveraging her strengths and maintaining a focused campaign narrative.

• Quote: "Pick a thing and stay with the thing and drive it home relentlessly." [19:46]

Carville underscores the advantage Democrats hold in terms of resources and cultural influence, urging the party to harness these strengths effectively in the final days leading up to the election.

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Donald Trump’s Interview on Joe Rogan

Another significant topic is Donald Trump's scheduled interview with Joe Rogan, a podcast host with a massive and diverse listener base. The conversation explores the potential impact of this appearance on the electoral landscape.

• Samantha Bee: "I don't relate to it, and it makes me feel sad." [38:45]

Carville expresses skepticism about the value of this interview, suggesting that while Trump is known for his unpredictable and unfiltered style, it may not yield substantial shifts in voter sentiment.

The hosts debate whether such platforms can serve as kingmakers in the current fragmented media environment, where niche audiences are increasingly influential.

• Harry Lambert: "Is this his answer to calling Daddy?" [35:50]

The discussion reflects broader concerns about media fragmentation and the role of influential figures like Rogan in shaping political discourse.

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Olivia Nuzzi’s Departure from New York Magazine

The episode also delves into the high-profile exit of Olivia Nuzzi from New York Magazine following a personal affair with RFK Jr. The hosts analyze the implications of this departure on media credibility and personal reputations.

• Samantha Bee: "It's a really private catastrophe that's just like, playing itself out in such a damaging way, and I hate it so much." [48:58]

Nuzzi’s departure, despite an independent review clearing her of professional misconduct, highlights the complex interplay between personal actions and professional standing in the media industry. The hosts express concern over the potential long-term effects on journalistic integrity and personal lives.

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Concluding Remarks

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reiterate the importance of focused political strategies and the challenges posed by media dynamics in modern elections. James Carville emphasizes actionable steps over theoretical discussions, advocating for direct voter engagement activities such as phone banking and postcard writing to influence the election outcome.

• James Carville: "Every minute that we're not doing that is a minute that we wasted." [25:27]

The episode closes with reflections on the discussed topics, underscoring the urgency and significance of the final days before the election.

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Notable Quotes

• "I do not care. I only think of how it ends up... Stay focused on what you have to do for 13 days." — James Carville [12:41]
• "Pick a thing and stay with the thing and drive it home relentlessly." — James Carville [19:46]
• "I don't relate to it, and it makes me feel sad." — Samantha Bee [38:45]
• "It's a really private catastrophe that's just like, playing itself out in such a damaging way, and I hate it so much." — Samantha Bee [48:58]
• "Every minute that we're not doing that is a minute that we wasted." — James Carville [25:27]

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Conclusion

This episode of The Daily Beast Podcast offers a compelling exploration of pivotal political issues through the lens of experienced strategist James Carville. From dissecting Kamala Harris’s campaign strategies to contemplating the influence of high-profile media interviews, the conversation provides listeners with nuanced perspectives on the current election dynamics. Additionally, the analysis of Olivia Nuzzi’s personal and professional challenges offers insights into the intricate balance between personal life and media responsibilities.

For those keen on understanding the undercurrents shaping the upcoming election, this episode serves as an invaluable resource, blending insightful commentary with strategic political discourse.

Transcript

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[James Carville]

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[Harry Lambert]

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[Samantha Bee]

I am Samantha Bee, chief content officer of Arnold Palmer's Jockstrap. Filled to the brim with manliness.

[Harry Lambert]

Filled to the brim. Every Thursday, you're invited to the best dinner party, hosted by me and Sam, where we plunder the Daily Beast newsroom and we talk about the people and the stories of the week. And on today's show, with less than two weeks until the election, we're talking to Beast of the week, the man of the hour, the guru of democratic politics and queen of the phrase. It's the economy, stupid. That's my impression of wonderful. Well, that's my impression of James Carville.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, dear.

[Harry Lambert]

We'll also be joined by the Daily Beast reporter Harry Lambert to take us through two stories every media person is obsessed with right now. Joe Rogan's upcoming interview on Friday with Donald Trump and the New York Magazine reporter Olivia Nuzzi and her departure from the magazine after a digital affair with RFK Jr. Well, he's gonna have to explain that.

[Samantha Bee]

Who to?

[Harry Lambert]

Me.

[Samantha Bee]

Both of them, actually, because I am resistant to information across both of them. Meantime, Joanna, you're in New York magazine this week. You power player.

[Harry Lambert]

Oh, please.

[Samantha Bee]

You mogul.

[Harry Lambert]

Please. It's not a very flattering photo of me.

[Samantha Bee]

I did see the photo and I did. I had a curiosity in my heart, and I said, does Joanna like this photo? Often when there are photos of me in a thing, I think that was the one you chose. Thank you so kindly.

[Harry Lambert]

It's funny, because I've got, I think, 13 texts from people saying, why did they choose that photo? A, it doesn't look like you, and B, it couldn't be more unattractive.

[Samantha Bee]

It does not actually look like you. I. You. Yes. It does not look like you at all. And you know what? I did notice that the women. I'm going to say it. I'm going to say that this is. It's kind of a little bit gendered. The women's photos in the issue are not there. It's all mouths open. That's a choice. A choice was made.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, two or three people pointed out to me that the photos of the women were much less flattering than the photos of the men.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah. The men sort of get to look serious and pensive, just like looking into the middle distance thinking a big thought.

[Harry Lambert]

Yes.

[Samantha Bee]

And the women all sort of look like they're chewing gum at various stages of masticating or something. Or just, like, being shrill.

[Harry Lambert]

Being shrill.

[Samantha Bee]

Shrilly shrieking something at an underling. Oh, this is so typical. There have been so many times when I've been done a photo shoot or whatever, and they're like, why don't you just make. Okay. I think this would be so fun if you just made, like, a really mean face. Like, you're just like that. You're so grim. And I'm like, I will never do that. In fact, now that I know that you want that photo, I'm going to. With a frozen smile on my face until this session is over. You will not catch me. Grimace.

[Harry Lambert]

So what is that just. It's just the cliche of trying to make women who are powerful less powerful. I mean, Gayle King, who is an exceptionally beautiful woman, looked really bad in it. It's fine.

[Samantha Bee]

It's just a stern. You know, there's just something to it. They just love. You know, everybody loves to. It's, like, funny in the moment. Everybody's like, wouldn't it be funny in the moment if you just looked really stern and then that photo lives forever and you just look, like, demonic.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, I'm happy to look demonic from time to time.

[Samantha Bee]

I'm not saying that you look demonic. I'm just saying that I think they could have chosen a better photograph. And I think that's a very typical situation that I relate to.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, you've been. You've had way more photo shoots than I have. Do you find that the whole thing is set up to somehow undermine your success?

[Samantha Bee]

I don't think so. I think that it is more like, in the moment. Everybody's trying to think of a fun new angle. And I know from just being personally very experienced that if you put a clown wig on me because you think it's, like, a funny joke, it's not gonna seem. It's not gonna be funny at all in two years. When everyone uses that photo for other things, it just comes back. Like, anything you try to do that has a certain tone just comes back and haunts you later and literally lives forever. There's a photograph of me. Okay, let me just. This is. I'm going on too long.

[Harry Lambert]

We're going there.

[Samantha Bee]

When I first started working at the Daily show in the year 2003, nobody really. It wasn't. You know, it was. It was. Everything was very casual. We bought our own outfits. We've talked about that. It was totally fine. But one day they were like, can you go down to the studio because they want to take a picture or something. And I didn't really have any outfits and I didn't have any makeup, and I put on lipstick or something. It was just, like, really very casual. It was just a very casual experience. Went downstairs, took a photo, and then that photo was my headshot for years for the show and continues to exist. It's still out there, and all I've ever wanted to do is get rid of it. It's awful. My hands are doing something weird. I don't have any makeup on. It's not lit. And so, you know, it's like something that you have to kind of think about, unfortunately. And I hate it, actually.

[Harry Lambert]

Yeah, it's interesting. And it's very different for women than it is for men.

[Samantha Bee]

It's very different. It's very different. Very, very different.

[Harry Lambert]

But you had a very good shot outside the Mineta Lane Theatre for your menopause show, which I loved last week. It was really, really fun. And it was a bit like being in line with, I don't know, 350. What is the good collective noun for 350? Menopaus.

[Samantha Bee]

It's a community.

[Harry Lambert]

Is it a community? Is it a Jill Stein of women?

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, don't even say the word Jill Stein to me. It gets me. It gives me a hot flash. I just got a burbling in my tummy like Vesuvius. Can't even say her name. Just call her Joan Stern. That's what we used to call her on my show. We would not give her even the oxygen of saying her name. Jill Stein would never come to my show. She hates me and I dislike her.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, there were a lot of women that looked like Jill Stein standing in love.

[Samantha Bee]

That's fair.

[Harry Lambert]

But I've never been to a show where there was such a level of excitement and energy both before and after. Thank you and many congrats.

[Samantha Bee]

Thank you so much. It was so fun to do. It was incredibly satisfying. I feel like only doing three of those feels sad to me. I think I should do it.

[Harry Lambert]

Can't you take it on the road?

[Samantha Bee]

I don't know what I'm gonna do with it, but I do need to do something because it was so incredibly satisfying to perform. Just so personally fulfilling. And I actually think that talking in a really direct way about perimenopause is something that is so needed and is actually remarkably rare. I also went to Naomi Watts symposium on women in midlife. That was good. And Stacy London came to my show and she gave me a Gift bag filled with sacks of products.

[Harry Lambert]

I saw lotions, I saw Stacy. But one of the things I liked about the show was that it talks about the snake oil that's being sold to women going through this particular stage of their life, which, as we know, 51% of the population go through if golf, you know, as long as they get to the age of it. And it seems to me that almost every Hollywood celebrity now has a vaginal cream they're trying to sell my children.

[Samantha Bee]

I've been granted a lot of gift boxes, so for the last little while. And honestly, my children are like another vagina cream. Oh, my God. Because they're always trying to go through my products in the bathroom. And I'm like, don't touch those dusty old creams. Mommy doesn't use those. I love my hrt and I love my food grade coconut oil. And that's good for me.

[Harry Lambert]

Let's get to our beast of the week this week, James Carville, a singular Democratic voice who just wrote in the New York Times that Kamala Harris is going to win. James is a political strategist. James feels all wrong. I feel like I should actually call him James Carville. James Carville is a political strategist. He's a commentator, and he's one of the most colorful personalities in American politics. He's really best known for his role in Bill Clinton's 1992 presidential campaign, which broke the Democratic famine after Jimmy Carter. And Carville's sharp wit, his unfiltered commentary, and his mastery of political strategy have made him a household name. From consulting on elections worldwide to skewering opponents on cable news, Carville's influence spans decades. He's a provocateur, and he's a true Southern original who never shies away from a good fight, whether in the war room or on air. He's also the subject of a documentary currently in theaters called Winning is Everything Stupid.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, there we are.

[Harry Lambert]

There you are.

[James Carville]

Hi.

[Samantha Bee]

Hi.

[James Carville]

Technology 100. James Carville. Nothing. Always unbeaten. I love the Daily Beast. Thank you. I read it every four times a day.

[Harry Lambert]

Oh, my good man. Excellent man. Well, we're very pleased. We're very pleased to have you. And we know that you're a busy man, so we're happy to get straight to it.

[James Carville]

Straight. I like it.

[Samantha Bee]

Listen, a lot of Democrats, I mean, most Democrats, all Democrats, we don't understand why this election is so close. Why do you think it's so close? What the hell is in people's minds?

[James Carville]

I do not care. I only think of how it ends up. Okay, did we have all of this 13 day to go analysis and angst a guy like me? It's, you don't know if it's going to be closed on election day. Stay focused on what you have to do for 13 days. And honestly, don't try to interpret something before it happens. Interpreting something happens, opposed to trying to affect what happens. And I'm not a social analyst, I'm not a whatever. I'm trying to help people put coalitions together to stay focused, to do things, to win. And let's, when it's over, like anybody else, I'll probably share people's thoughts about what happened. But until it happens, let's, let's do what we can to affect the outcome.

[Samantha Bee]

You're constantly talking to people behind the scenes. What is the, is the mood just pure chaos or are people, do you think that people are moving in the right direction at the pace that you would want?

[James Carville]

I've actually had people come up to me and like a couple will come up and the wife will say, people call me Mr. Carville. What's going to happen? And I said, I don't know. I'm hoping for the best. And the husband will say, he knows, he's just not telling you. They know the truth of the matter is I don't know much more. You do about what's going to happen. You see the same information I do. I talk to people, I talk to insiders. And the body of knowledge between insiders and just mostly informed public is not that it really is. We don't have some secret, no more than somebody really knows who's going to win the World Series in. Every minute that you spend trying to predict an event and not affect an event is a minute that you're wasted.

[Harry Lambert]

Isn't there something to be said for trying to understand why a candidate who's lost before appears to be doing well, at least it appears to be next.

[James Carville]

Why would you be worried about that right now? Assuming that we all concerned and care about the outcome and the election has not happened yet, by the way, he's lost in 18, 20 and 22. We haven't lost an election in two years. And I really, you know, I want to be respectful and not curt here. I'm not interpreting things, I'm trying to affect things.

[Harry Lambert]

Right, but I don't know how you affect things if you don't understand why certain things, why Trump has the support he does.

[James Carville]

He's lost three elections in a row.

[Harry Lambert]

True.

[James Carville]

Okay. We just don't know that we're just assuming things that haven't happened yet.

[Samantha Bee]

Okay, well, then what should the Democrats be focused on in the last 10 days until the election? Is there actually something that you think could happen that would make a difference?

[James Carville]

So what you have to do in politics, you have to choose to do one thing, is to choose to not do another thing. There's two emerging things that OConnor wanted. One is he's really cognitively out of it. He went 39 minutes with Ave Maria. One sentence has nothing to do with another sentence. You know, we land Biden out because he was old, but the New York Times doesn't run enough stories about Trump's age. You hear that crap over and over and over again. There are other people like General Milley or General Kelly that says fascists to his core. The former Director of National Intelligence, former United States Senator Dan Coats, who say that he thinks he's actually an agent of the Kremlin. You got to pick one. Is he an incompetent, incontinent, dithering, slobbering buffoon, or is he dangerous to the idea of the American Republic? You can't have both.

[Harry Lambert]

I don't understand why you can't have both. Why are they mutually exclusive?

[James Carville]

Because if I'm incompetent and I'm not connected and I don't know anything and I'm suffering from dementia, I can't be a threat to you. I could only be a threat to myself. If you're trying to convince me that something is a threat to me, I have to feel like it's a threat and it will carry out the threat that it is. That's why.

[Samantha Bee]

Do you think that there's a sense that people have lost faith in democracy? Or my question is, why don't people seem to value it more? There seems to be almost no accountability for his actions.

[James Carville]

Should we have the election and then do that? Why are we doing. And I'm trying to be respectful here. We having an election. So you tell people we don't have a democracy, and we're probably going to have record turnout. So I'm going to poll and I'm voting, and I have the Daily Beast telling me we don't have a democracy. Well, wait a minute. I'm voting. We are analyzing the election before the event. Let's have the World Series and then talk about who had better pitching or baserunning.

[Harry Lambert]

But isn't the point that he keeps saying this will be the last election?

[James Carville]

That's against everything that the United States Is he's. Yes. That fits totally into the authoritarian, anti American, anti constitutional thing that I think we should be running on.

[Samantha Bee]

Let's talk about third party candidates because you ran Bill Clinton's campaign in 92 when Ross Perot helped Clinton win. Do you see a third party candidate? I don't want to say that we're projecting, but do you think it helps or that it hurts to put Jill Stein's name on a billboard or in a. In an ad that everyone's listening to? Do you think it amplifies her message?

[James Carville]

First of all, she's a Russian agent. You heard me say that. Try to sue me. And what you should do, you're very educated, technically sophisticated people. Have somebody during this podcast put in photo Jill Stein, Vladimir Putin, General Flynn.

[Harry Lambert]

Right. They come up together.

[Samantha Bee]

Familiar. Yes.

[James Carville]

They were in Russia in 2016. She was on RT. She got more votes in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin than Hillary lost five. All right. Understand that this could cost the whole election. And she is a Russian agent.

[Harry Lambert]

Yes.

[Samantha Bee]

So my question is, do you give her oxygen by talking about her? Do we give her oxygen and make more people aware of her. Her. Or is it better to starve her?

[James Carville]

She. She's pushing herself out there. We didn't give her any oxygen. We did not put default. No one in 2016 knew that she was paid by the Russian government. I don't know, but you ought to tell people that. I mean, there's this idiotic progressive argument that power without principle is immoral. Okay, well, they're like principle without power. She's on the ballot in all the key states. She is put there. In my opinion, based on the photograph that I saw with my own eyes, that is the most underreported story in modern American politics. I don't get it.

[Samantha Bee]

If you were sitting down right now with Kamala Harris for the next 10 minutes, what would you say to her?

[James Carville]

Pick a thing and stay with the thing and drive it home relentlessly. In every event, in every surrogate and everything you do, be related to the centrality of that single thing. And you have so many assets that are not available to the other side. You have. They have no surrogates that you have completely unified coalition. You have more money, you have more cultural influence 10 times. Use your advantages and be singular in your focus. And don't get distracted about the day after the election. Don't get distracted by the Quinnipiac poll says this or that. Stay on a singular thing.

[Harry Lambert]

So what should the singular theme be? You're famous for creating the statement it's the economy, stupid.

[James Carville]

We're going to lose the idea of what the United States is. We have a guy that the director of national intelligence says that he thinks it's an agent of the Kremlin. You have two four star generals saying that his fascist to his bone. Well, fascism. Go look. Go, go put a Google on the different ways you can express people. They don't know what fascism is. Well, they know what authoritarian is. They know what throwing opponents. He's actually saying that I'm going to put my political opponents in jail. How un American is that? But we're going to talk about the polar. Well, he's talking about and he would go out and say I'm going to put my political pawns in jail. And then you would have the shovel brigade clearing up as well. What he really meant and he comes back. So that's what I really meant. But the Democratic progressive infrastructure is going to be threatened about this. That every distract everything that they can get distracted by that is going to try to convey to people how smart they are when you just stay focused on a singular thing. All about political professional life has been trying to drill less in and I have to tell you, I've not been very successful.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, in your op ed today you talk about how you have three good reasons to believe Kamala would win the election for sure. I'm sensing that she is drilling down on some pretty key principles like what you're discussing. Are you feeling that they're wavering from that? I feel like they're very on message.

[James Carville]

I always think you could do better. I'm never satisfied. I'm always fidgety. I'm always nervous, but I'm always confident. You're never any better than you think you are. So I was a guy that grew up in a, you know, impoverished place. I went to a state school. I didn't have any success until I was after 40. But I always thought I was better than anybody and I had enormous self confidence and that's the way.

[Harry Lambert]

So I very much enjoyed the documentary about you. Carville winning is Everything Stupid in it. You foresaw that President Biden was going to be too old for a reelection. You also said that you thought the best way forward for the Democrats was to have had an open convention and made it a fantastic sort of spectacle for everybody to engage in. Given how Biden nominated Carmela and it all took place, do you feel okay about that or do you still wish that they'd had a process?

[James Carville]

You know, there's a saying in the Marine Corps, wish in one hand and spit in the other. See which one feels better. Actually, don't say spit. But I'm going to be respectful, high class publication. All right? I don't have time. Be singular. I can't be retrospective. All right? I have to live. I'm a person that lives in the present. I don't live in the past. I don't live in the future. I live. What do we do today? To be focused, to draw a contrast, to frame an issue, use the communication resources we have at our disposal and marshal those resources to drive a point home. I never viewed myself as a deep thinker. I never viewed myself as a person that has historical connectivity through history to the present and past into the future. I view myself as someone who lives in the present, who has a singular objective, and that's to win the election. If I could go back and redo from July 21 to the start of the Democratic Convention, I can't live in that world. That's not a place that I want to occupy. When this is over and the votes are counted like anybody else, I'll say, well, what lessons do we learn here? But right now we got 12 days to go, or whatever it is. It's a short time. You probably have less than that to drive it across. And every minute that we're not doing that is a minute that we wasted.

[Harry Lambert]

You've spent a lot of time observing the American voter. Are we ready in America for a woman president?

[Samantha Bee]

I mean, yes. Can I answer that?

[James Carville]

I don't know. But guess what? Is she going to change genders in the next 11 days? I don't think so. Are we ready for a person of African and Indian descent? I don't know, but that's what we got. We did have a woman candidate for president. 2016 actually won the popular vote, but what difference does it make? I'm just being. I'm not trying to be difficult.

[Samantha Bee]

No, it's fine. So today's lesson is be constructive. Act today. There's not much time left. Be singular in purpose. Move forward. Every time we're spending, every time we are spending talking about theories around things, our minutes we are wasting. Nailed it. So it's phone bank time.

[Harry Lambert]

James, is the most singular, effective thing one can do. Phone banking.

[James Carville]

I think postcard writing is really good. And I'd never thought I'd say this, but there's something called, I think, called markers for democracy. And they provide people with names. So you can get 15 people at a table and say, okay, let's each one of us write 150 postcards, and they'll select a name for you. There'll be some rationale. There'll be people who, if they voted, would vote Democratic but don't have a great voting history. Or there'll be people that they think, you know, some method to it that are loosely aligned, people they could be convinced. But then I have all kinds of friends of mine that called me and said, I go with my daughter to this happens a lot. My daughter. We go into Pennsylvania. We're going to Bucks County. We're walking precincts. I said, are they giving you a lift? She said, yeah, to act to him. Okay, good. Because if you just show up and just start Willy and Ellie knocking on doors, you're probably not going to do that. Well, but if you want to do something, my suggestion would be to postcard writing. But if you feel compelled to just. I want to. I want to be out, and I want to be with the people. I want to go back, then show up and get a list from the county headquarters. And they're pretty good about that. It. You know, you know where you need to go. You need to go to Bucks in Pennsylvania.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, Joanna, I want to be home when you knock on my door, when you roll up in your sedan.

[Harry Lambert]

I'm going to start sending you postcards, too. James, I'm going to send you a postcard. And, Sam, I'm going to send you a postcard.

[Unknown]

Perfect.

[James Carville]

Send me a postcard. Most people don't get a lot of mail, and they get a postcard and, hey, my name is such and such. I just want to tell you, I ask you to consider voting for Kamala Harris because I think she really embodies what America can be and what we all want us to be. And that's a flourishing pluralistic democracy that is respectful of everybody. Okay, Just try that off the top of your head, and I'll be hoping that you will Join me on November 5th in voting for her.

[Harry Lambert]

I've forgotten how to write anything that long by hand.

[James Carville]

Okay, well, I'm pretty. I have a short attention span, so probably a pretty good postcard writer.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, this was very interesting. Thank you so much for taking the time.

[Harry Lambert]

Thank you, James. Thank you.

[James Carville]

I love the beast and I love the conversation. And as you can see, I'm a man of singular focus.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, we'll see you on the other side, as you put it.

[James Carville]

Whatever is on the other side.

[Harry Lambert]

All right. Thank you very much.

[Samantha Bee]

Thank you.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, he's right about staying focused, I suppose.

[Samantha Bee]

He's right about staying focused. I'll give him that.

[Harry Lambert]

Are you drinking out of an Emma Bridgewater mug?

[Samantha Bee]

I am. It has owls on it.

[Harry Lambert]

Oh, that's very sweet. I have a lot of her mugs. I love them.

[Samantha Bee]

I love birds and I love owls.

[Harry Lambert]

Who doesn't love a good owl?

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Yes, please.

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Did we just score the greatest gifts of all time? Yeah.

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Details.

[Unknown]

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[Samantha Bee]

You'Re what's going on in your world other than being just splashed across the pages of the power 100 or whatever it's called.

[Harry Lambert]

Whatever it's called. Well, I am obsessed with the fact that New York magazine's media story has been completely overwhelmed or overtaken.

[Samantha Bee]

Sure.

[Harry Lambert]

By their own news that they're Chief political reporter Olivia Nuzzi was the subject of an independent review after it was revealed that she'd been having a digital affair with RFK Jr. And that though she had done nothing wrong or that they hadn't found any evidence of influence from RFK in her reporting, though I'm not quite sure how you would actually quantify that, she was nevertheless leaving the magazine and that completely took the oxygen out of their issues.

[Samantha Bee]

As you know, I have severe anxiety about talking about female reporters. So I guess we'll get into it because we're bringing in a special guest.

[Harry Lambert]

Yes. Well, when we come back, we'll be joined by Harry Lambert, who's been reporting on this for the Daily Beast, and he's got a very interesting take on the whole story.

[Samantha Bee]

Okay, we're going to be a threesome.

[Harry Lambert]

We are going to be a threesome.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah, in the most innocent possible way.

[Harry Lambert]

Maybe it's a digital three. So we're now joined by our special Beast correspondent, Harry Lambert. And Harry, you've been working on two stories I'm obsessed by this week and the media, in fact, is obsessed with one we'll come back to, which is the New York magazine Olivia Nuzzi RFK Jr. Story. But the other one that I really want to talk to you about too, because you wrote an excellent profile of him, is the fact that Donald Trump is doing an interview with Joe Rogan tomorrow.

[Unknown]

Rogan is probably the most popular podcaster in the world at this point, and Trump has done the sort of understudy podcasts. He did the Lex Friedman podcast, did the Theo Vaughn podcast. So now he's doing the sort of Granddaddy podcast. This is the guy that invented what someone called wallpaper Audio. You know, like those Netflix shows that just play in the background. You don't really need to pay any attention to them. Rogan did the same thing for.

[Harry Lambert]

Okay, so I just want to see how many episodes of Joe Rogan's podcast Sam B. Has actually listened to.

[Samantha Bee]

Okay. The total amount of Joe Rogan podcastery that I have listened to is zero minutes. Zero minutes. I've never listened. I've never in my life listened because I don't care for wallpaper programming of any sort. I don't care for television wallpaper. I don't care for podcast wallpaper.

[Harry Lambert]

You do have very good wallpaper in your kitchen.

[Samantha Bee]

I don't need extra wallpaper. And I'm not like a weightlifter or really interested in any type of health tips or vaccine misinformation. So I haven't really been an avid listener to this point. Things could. Things won't change.

[Harry Lambert]

And to me, Joe Rogan just feels like by men, for men, about men. Couldn't be less interested, though. I do like men and I do like to say I did actually give birth to two men, so I like them that much. But not enough to listen to Joe Rogan.

[Unknown]

Well, that's the thing about him. He worked out what his audience was. He had that from the very beginning. I mean, if you look at the arc of his career, he. And this surprised me. It might surprise you. He was a key figure in news radio, the sitcom in the 90s.

[Samantha Bee]

Yes.

[Unknown]

He basically played a character like Joey from Friends. Very good humored, thick head of hair. And like now and then he.

[Harry Lambert]

He's totally bald now.

[Unknown]

He's totally bald and jacked, as he always was. But increasingly jacked. I mean, he takes testosterone, he takes human growth hormone. He openly discusses this.

[Harry Lambert]

Should we be taking human growth hormone? I think we should.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, boy. I have strong opinions. What would happen, Joanna, you'd have a six pack. That's what would happen.

[Harry Lambert]

Then I definitely need to be taking it. I need to be taking it right now.

[Samantha Bee]

I'm so sorry. But I did see the headline, and just thinking about Joe Rogan as a kingmaker is. I'm just not sure I'm made for this world. I'm not sure I'm here for this media world anymore.

[Unknown]

Perhaps you want water cronkite back.

[Samantha Bee]

You know, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that maybe I should find myself a comfy bench and just stare out the window for the remainder of my life.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, maybe for the remainder of this election. But is this his answer to car doing call her daddy?

[Unknown]

Well, there's that, but there's also Carmela brief that she might go on Rogan. I think the first thing, look, it isn't a podcast for you guys or for many people or even for me, but it's interesting how he managed to create an appeal, right? So what he did is not just produce wallpaper audio, but he gave people at the time this insight into figures who would never have sat down for interviews of three hours before and had such an open discussion. You know, he'd give people a drink, could give them a joint point. He'd have Musk on Miley Cyrus, on Edward Snowden, on to talk about things that, you know, were otherwise being covered in very short form. So he did something pretty innovative. He also, I think, which is the fascinating bit for me, is he kind of created a self help ideology online for men when the field, I think, had been thought of as men by men, as essentially a feminine form, they didn't need help. And he legitimized the idea that you could speak to young men and say, look, I've got my life together. I'm just a guy working out, trying to do, trying to be curious about the world. And if you're struggling out there, like, listen to this podcast, be part of the community of people trying to take an interest in the world. So he created, if you like, a safe space. And that's why he is now a kingmaker in an election where.

[Samantha Bee]

I'm sorry, I can't look so funny to me. Oh my God. I mean, it's fine, you know, I accept that. That's the reality. Just need a sip of my chai.

[Harry Lambert]

But it's true that this is the podcast election, right?

[Unknown]

And if it's the podcast election, then it makes sense that Trump would go on his program. But I think nothing's really going to come out of the Trump, I mean, Hostess the Fortune podcast with Rogan. The much more interesting interview would have been Kamala versus Rogan, because Rogan's podcast is really, it's so unlike anything Kamala's trained for. Kamala's ready for the jab, jab, jab of a new, a new broadcast interview, list of questions being fired at her, which she can fend off in various ways she's not really prepared for and has never trained for an interview in which she'll give her nothing but rope. And that's what Rogan does. He just gives you rope, just gives you time to hang yourself. Trump you know, plays by his own rules. He's. He's measured by his own rules. So people won't really mind if he goes off script.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, there's no script for Trump. Right. He's never been on script, apart from when he was doing the Apprentice. Now he's off script. Do you think that there's anything that Rogan can do to have Trump actually hang himself with his own words, or do you think at this point it's beyond that?

[Unknown]

The thing Rogan doesn't like is he doesn't like inconsistency and inauthenticity. So he wanted to vote for Bernie at one point in 2020, and then he wanted to vote for RFK because he thought they were both consistent people.

[Harry Lambert]

And so he could try consistently cracking pot. Yes.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Right. Well, he could try and skewer Trump on consistency, but, I mean, I don't see a lot coming out of it. The only thing I might see come out of it is 5000 men in Pennsylvania who might not otherwise have voted, thinking, maybe I should vote for Trump.

[Harry Lambert]

And he does have millions of listeners. Right. I know Sam isn't among them. I don't even.

[Samantha Bee]

It's just. I mean, you know, I don't even know really what to say about this world. I. I don't. I really don't. I'm just kind of at a loss. I'm kind of like, well, okay, so many people are going to listen to this podcast. It's going to normalize them further. It's going to deepen people's. Either of you think Trump is hilariously funny, or you think he's an addled, crazy man, which is what I happen to think. And I. It really. I find it so worrying. I find it so worrying.

[Harry Lambert]

Do you think Carmela will say yes to doing the Rogan podcast?

[Unknown]

I'm not sure Rogan's going to invite her on.

[Harry Lambert]

I thought he already had. I thought he'd already said that he's up for either of them.

[Unknown]

Most of this has come from the Kamala campaign. They said they're considering going on, but Rogan didn't. I mean, Rogan said he didn't actually want to help Trump out in 2022. So this is a shift in focus. I think the one thing I would say about Rogan is Rogan did seem normal in the 90s, and in many ways, he is normal in the sense that he's. I mean, Trump isn't. But, you know, he came up through fear factor, through UFC. He was the color commentator for UFC for the last 20 years. It's a normal part of the media ecosystem. It's just not one that maps very well onto Democratic politics, which is why Kamala would be such an odd guest on the show. You know, everyone else that has gone on recently is essentially a figure of the maga. Right.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, God. Again, I'm just. I'm at a complete loss. I'm just at a loss. I think it's so bad.

[Harry Lambert]

You're at menopausal loss.

[Samantha Bee]

I am. I'm actually having. I'm probably gonna start to sweat any second now. I just. I just don't. I don't have any insight. I have no follow ups. I don't have any questions. I just can't believe that we have to think about the Joe Rogan podcast in this way. For fans of it, who are fans of it, that's great. It's wonderful. I would never listen to it. I don't relate to it, and I just. It makes me feel sad.

[Harry Lambert]

I do think your point that it could get 5,000 men in each of the swing states out to vote, and it could have much more influence than perhaps people expected. And just talk a little bit. I mean, we were both recently at a talk with Scott Galloway where he talked about this being the podcast election. Sam and I are kingmakers and queenmakers.

[Samantha Bee]

Kingmakers, what have you.

[Harry Lambert]

Absolutely. We are. So we're all up for the podcast election. But what did he mean by that?

[Unknown]

Well, I just think you've got an extremely fragmented media system at this point. Right. People are going on shows you've never even heard of to squeeze out those few thousand thousand votes here or there. And it's familiar in many ways. But this is the first election where all of those trends have coalesced, where you start, you know, every day someone's on a podcast you didn't know about where appealing to some niche. Or is it. How do I say in America?

[Harry Lambert]

Niche? Niche.

[Unknown]

I thought it was a different American.

[Harry Lambert]

It's niche, but it's. It's click you're thinking of. I think clique and click. And then I think. And foyer. And foyer. Is it foyer? What do we say?

[Unknown]

I thought it was niche in America.

[Samantha Bee]

Here they say foyer.

[Unknown]

They say niche. It was niche.

[Harry Lambert]

Could you just say that one more time? Foyer. Foyer. How would Melania say it?

[Samantha Bee]

Well, she knows how to say foyer.

[Unknown]

But it kind of makes it more interesting, doesn't it, running a campaign? Because you now got to go work out where all these pockets of power are. It's kind of it's kind of fascinating. You don't just go on ABC News and do a big sit down.

[Harry Lambert]

No. Well, the media is changing and we know that because New York magazine has its media power issue out this week. But oddly, and I like New York magazine, I used to work there. But oddly, it managed to overshadow its own story by announcing that Olivia Nuzzi, its chief political correspondent, would in fact be leaving the magazine, even though an independent investigation by a law firm that they'd called in decided that her digital affair with RFK Jr hadn't actually impacted her political reporting. I'm not quite sure how they would know that. But despite the fact that the independent report found she was not at fault, she's leaving the magazine, which totally overshadowed their media issue. You have been following this story since the beginning. Give us an update where we are. Because this story has really electrified the media, I think it's fair to say. Olivia and her then fiance, Ryan Lizza, sort of presented as a modern day Nora Ephron and Carl Bernstein. And now they appear to be going through an extraordinary breakup.

[Unknown]

Right. They were the sort of Washington golden couple, right? So he had been for 10 years the New Yorkers Washington correspondent for the past five had been at Pulitzer co writing the Town Bible playbook. She had been at New York magazine as their DC correspondent for about seven years. And so, you know, they were both independently major figures in their own right. He on the center left, her on the sort of center right, if you like.

[Harry Lambert]

And her profiles, You've read her profiles?

[Samantha Bee]

I've liked them very much. I think she's a great writer. She's a great, great writer. I'm sad that she's leaving because I'm really gonna miss her reporting there. I thought it was excellent.

[Unknown]

But the thing about this story is there's their journalistic careers, then there's the catalyst which broke them up, which is the RFK affair. And then there is to me, the most fascinating question of all that's relatively unexamined and that is the court filings that they have both now put through D.C. superior Court. So they present two completely different pictures of this entire affair. Olivia's picture has been quite well reported on and scrutinized. She describes Liza as a sort of jealous and abusive ex who blackmailed her or attempted to blackmail her into staying with him. When he found out about the RFK affair, that took up all the attention for about two weeks. Liza offered a brief denial, but he didn't get into any details until last week where he Counterfiled. And he counterfeited and painted a completely different archetype. Instead of the jealous X, this was an innocent man whose been framed, who's been wronged by his former fiance. And the big difference between that, whose filings.

[Harry Lambert]

Just. Just so I'm clear, framed for what?

[Unknown]

Well, he says he's been framed for having anything to do with, first of all, the leaking of the information. Nzi claims that Lizza was the one who leaked the information into the media. He says it's completely untrue. Framed for threatening her with physical violence, a claim she made in her filing. He says that's completely untrue. He never did so. Framed for stealing her devices and taking material from her phone.

[Harry Lambert]

And that's presumably the texts that she was exchanging with RFK Jr. Right. Because it was only a. Well, the claim appears to be that it was only a digital affair. Correct?

[Unknown]

Right. An electronic affair in some. In some way facetiming text, whatever that means. I think that the fascinating thing about this is the big difference between the findings is Liz's is full of detail and Nuzzi's is not. Liz's is full of direct quotes and Nuzzie's is not. Liz's is laid down.

[Harry Lambert]

Direct quotes from where?

[Unknown]

Well, theoretically, we don't know because we're not seeing the actual evidence, but theoretically, from texts that Olivia had sent him and everything else. And the picture he paints is, after he found out about the affair in mid August, for a month they tried to stay together. And Nuzzi very much, or Nutsy very much wanted to stay with him, which is completely different to what she. He says that he didn't want to stay with her, and by mid September, they broke off, and just a few days later, the story came out. And then to his great shock and surprise, Nutsey blamed him in this extraordinary way in this D.C. court filing. So this is as yet unadjudicated, but I think it's really important to state that you can file anything in a D.C. superior Court. You don't have to reach any level of proof to do so. And it's a great way to defame someone, frankly. And Liza may have been defamed, and he certainly thinks he's ready or stood ready to tell the judge why he's been falsely accused.

[Harry Lambert]

I mean, she was initially suspended from New York magazine. He's now been suspended from his job at Politico.

[Unknown]

Yes, completely. And it's important to say that Nitze says that his claims are wrong. So, you know, you just got two sides warring with Each other. But I think the interesting thing talking to the nutcamp about this is I'm not sure they're going to offer the point by point detail and rebuttal that Lizza did. It's almost like, you know, Liz is now in the mud with them and that's that. But I think it's potentially a very unfortunate situation because there is a truth here. Both filings can't be true, and someone's been deeply wronged here.

[Harry Lambert]

Where do we think RFK Jr is in all of this?

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, he's the catalyst for the whole thing. At this point, I feel he's almost out of the story. He broke the two of them up and has managed to fail upwards, as he always has.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, has he failed upwards? He's failed up to the Donald Trump camp.

[Samantha Bee]

I actually think he comes out.

[Unknown]

Comes out fine. Right.

[Samantha Bee]

I recuse myself from having an opinion on this story. I actually do. I can't have an opinion about it. I just feel like. I just feel like it's a really private catastrophe that's just like, playing itself out in such a damaging way, and I hate it so much. I'm gonna miss her reporting. It's a really sad and awful story. I think actually the only person who comes out unscathed is RFK Jr. And he's a pig. He's a pig at the center of this story.

[Unknown]

I agree with that completely. But should Lizard come out of it scathed because it's not clear that he has done anything wrong? That's my fear about it, I guess.

[Samantha Bee]

For me, I just don't. I mean, beyond what happened. And she was. It's just kind of cleared by the independent agency now. It's just a fight between two people in court. So I guess beyond having any kind of sense of whether this impacted anybody's reporting, I've just stopped. I can't engage. I just can't engage with it. And it makes me feel. Again, I have two stories that are making me feel so badly about the world because I think that RFK Jr. Is a disgusting human being. And I just think the focus should be on him. I just think the focus should be on him, actually.

[Harry Lambert]

And the extraordinary thing that he's now hustling, having done the one thing that he. That his wife, Sheryl Hines, his third wife, Sheryl Hines, said she couldn't forgive, which would be to endorse Trump. Not only has he endorsed Trump, he's now hustling to be the head of Health and Human Services, which, given the Alienation he's caused in the mainstream medical world with his vaccine theories or anti vaccine theories seems absolutely extraordinary. And yet living in the world that we live in now, it doesn't seem impossible he could end up with that job.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, it. Disgusted. I just have tremendous anxiety about deepening the story about a young female reporter who I've had, I've just admired so much. I wish, you know, on her behalf that the story would just die down and that it wasn't playing out in this way. It is, I understand it, it's intriguing. Everybody's talking about it, but I've been on the receiving end of this kind of attention and I hate it so much and I hate it for her.

[Unknown]

The only thing about that, I completely agree. I think the way she was initially sort of lynch mobbed on Twitter over this whole thing was terrible. And she is a great reporter. But she then chose to go to D.C. superior Court and make a series of extraordinary allegations about Liza, which she knew were public.

[Samantha Bee]

I know.

[Unknown]

So it's like, you can't, you can't say that.

[Samantha Bee]

I know, I know. It's just awful.

[Unknown]

So it's, it's. I guess for me, I was amazed how little detail was in the initial filing and I was surprised how much was in Liz's counterfiling. And the only reason I'm still fascinated by the story is, you know, we've all seen the movie of a man, an innocent man wronged, and I'm now intrigued by whether that's happened here. I'm also obviously willing to believe that, you know, NZ's story is true too. But the, the big difference is someone has to supply the evidence. And so far it seems like Liza is more willing to supply evidence than Nzi.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, N is apparently heartbroken. And Nora F. France, all our, all our role models. I would like to say I don't know if she was yours, but certainly mine took. And your sister, well, she took her heart break, turned it into heartburn, went to Hollywood and owned her story. So I hope Olivia does that too.

[Samantha Bee]

Me too. I'll be there. I'll buy a ticket.

[Harry Lambert]

Thank you for listening. Please, like, subscribe and share the episode with a friend or a colleague you want to argue with.

[Samantha Bee]

And if you're doing that, why not share it with your neighbor who has electrified the Trump sign on their lawn?

[Harry Lambert]

Tag us on your favorite social platforms and tell us what you think and we'll be back next Thursday with another episode of the Daily Beast podcast.

[Samantha Bee]

As my former muse once said, be.

[Harry Lambert]

Best, but here, Sam. We say be beast.

[Samantha Bee]

We do.

[Harry Lambert]

The Daily Beast podcast is produced by Sarah Demenkoft, Svea Beren Reinstein, Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder with editing by Deanna Chapman. If you've been listening to this podcast, you've heard us talk about 5 9, the revolutionary customer experience platform that is redefining how customers interact with brands. Everyone wants to be treated well and have a great customer experience, and in today's world, that is a huge competitive advantage. But most companies see it as just ticking a box. They're missing out on incredible brand building and revenue generating opportunities that are everywhere across businesses. All of those consumer touch points that you don't think of, those are the moments your brand can use to create an advantage. Five9's intelligent AI driven platform lets you make all those moments better and totally seamless. If you want to build a powerful brand that people love, check out59.com beast.

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