Samantha Bee (3:16)

That is so interesting. What an interesting way to see it. I. I think you're totally right. People want to talk. They want to see themselves rendered in some way, and they can live with it, even if it's like a. Just a little bit bruising.

Leah Wire (3:30)

Yeah.

Joanna Coles (3:30)

And I think people often understand their negative strains. Right. And they want someone to explain them. Anyway, I. I can't. I can't wait to talk. And obviously, the book has already got a rise out of. Out of the president, who's denied much of what's in it while still admitting that some of his advices did speak to Michael about the book. And it contains revelations like Melania fucking hates him from one observer, and of course, that Trump was terrified of dying on Jeffrey Epstein's plane. There's a wonderful story in the book where Trump's own plane is damaged. The windscreen has got a crack in it. They have to rent a plane unwittingly. They rent a private jet that used to belong to Jeffrey Epstein, which they only discovered midway through a very turbulent flight where everybody's kind of bouncing around. And apparently in the book, Donald Trump is described as howling that he doesn't want to die on Jeffrey Epstein's plane, because even in that moment, he knows that that would be bad for him and his reputation because he's always managing to his audience.

Samantha Bee (4:37)

How could I mean, a noted alleged germaphobe like Trump be on Epstein's plane ever? That is just one giant hotel bedspread. That is there are human body fluids everywhere. That is just a Port authority toilet.

Joanna Coles (4:57)

I think it's probably been through several owners since Debris Epstein had it. But you do think if they shone one of those lights, those purple ultraviolet lights on it, there would just be, like, stuff everywhere.

Samantha Bee (5:10)

Absolute nightmare.

Joanna Coles (5:11)

On a more wholesome note, we'll also be talking to Leah Wire, who's the president of People, about the crazy shit people do to get ready for the Oscars, which is coming up on Sunday.

Samantha Bee (5:21)

Exciting. Well, you were just at the SAG Awards.

Joanna Coles (5:24)

I was at the SAG Awards. I had great fun. I actually made a Style Choice this year to wear sneakers on the red carpet as opposed to heels. And I will say my feet thanked me.

Samantha Bee (5:34)

You know what? I thought that we had all agreed, like, nationally or maybe even globally, that aftercoat Covid nobody would wear heels again. And then they came back more hardcore than ever. I was talking to my husband the other day. He was like, what are those? What are those high heels? Like six inches? I'm like, six inches. You can't wear a six inch heel. You'll be pitched forward. You'll break your nose on the pavement. That's impossible that people are doing it.

Joanna Coles (6:04)

I know it's crazy, but I just refused to. And so I got a pair of silver, well, metallics. Metallic sneakers. And I have to say, it's not quite the same as wearing heels, but it was just so comfortable. And, you know, the SAG awards, like, all these awards shows, people don't understand how much preamble there is. And then there's always a party afterwards. All I can tell you is we left the hotel at 1. I got back at 10:30 in the evening. And the whole time it felt like I'd been working very hard. Great fun. But I'm so glad I was wearing sneakers.

Samantha Bee (6:39)

Yeah, sneakers, they're key. I used to go with a. If I had to do stuff like that, I would carry a huge clutch and I would put flip flops in the clutch. And then at the end of the night, when everybody was. Yeah, everybody would walk to their cars. You know, you get all clogged up. Everybody's walking to their cars. And I would just. I would just put on my flip flops, and everybody was mad at me and jealous. And that's my goal in life, to make everyone jealous. So I really worked out for me. Great.

Joanna Coles (7:06)

That might be the most useful thing you have ever told me. Because the thing is, it's like, how do you find shoes that are small enough to go in a bag that you can carry around with you? Flip flops. Absolutely. Obvious genius idea.

Samantha Bee (7:19)

Flip flops.

Joanna Coles (7:20)

And also, I did notice at the end when you come out, there's always a scrum for the cars. A lot of the women are kind of almost screaming, their car isn't right there. And it's because everybody's in pain from the shoes.

Samantha Bee (7:33)

Everybody's in pain from the shoes. I have to tell you, one year, took my dad to the Emmys. I took my dad to the Emmys and a bunch of my friends. And it was that scrum at the end. And there's cars, like, there are hundreds of black cars lined up. And they all look pretty much identical. It's either like a town car or it's a big suburban or something like that. And my dad thought every single car was for him. And he really wanted to go home. He probably had to go to the bathroom or something. And he just walked through that scrum of cars going, are you here for Ron B? Are you here for Ron B? He must have talked to 75 different car drivers. And I was like, your car is so friend. Then he was just too far away. I couldn't get him back. He went. He was unleashed. Unleashed.

Joanna Coles (8:17)

That is my idea of hell. The scrum for the black car, it sounds so precious and, you know, the uber white privilege. But there was. And I won't say who they were, but there was a couple in front of us, he's a famous actor with a younger woman who was hysterical that their car hadn't arrived before other people. And she was like, did you see Three other couples walked in front of us and got their car? And he didn't care because he was wearing flat shoes. He was wearing kind of loafers. What did he care? So he was trying to calm her down. She was on the edge. She was on the edge of madness over her car. And I understood where it was coming from. And I was like, I got me sneakers. I don't care.

Samantha Bee (9:00)

That's the spot. That's the spot where you see everybody at the end of the night. Everyone's drunk, everybody's tired, everyone's sore. They're so hungry. You're just going to see everything you need to see. And then you're going to see my dad weaving around in between all the cars, trying to flag one down for himself.

Joanna Coles (9:20)

I love it. Rom B here. Rom B is here. I have a. I have a. I had a what would Sam B. Moment. I'm staying at the Four Seasons in la, okay. Which is where a lot of celebs stay, especially pre Oscars. I'm in the elevator going down to the fourth floor to meet a friend for lunch. And who should get into the elevator. Who but Kanye. Kanye got into the elevator and he was wearing a black hoodie, black pants, black tee, black socks, no shoes. And he threw up his hood. And then he kind of laughed. And then he switched his. His phone on and was watching some kind of video. And I did. I only had two stops, two floors to try and think of something to say, and I. It sort of failed me. And we'd say, got out on the fourth floor. And I thought, what would Sam be have said?

Samantha Bee (10:13)

What? I don't think I would have said, what am I going to say? What am I going to. How am I going to open up an interlude with Kanye on an elevator? He's not wearing shoes.

Joanna Coles (10:23)

You know what I almost said? I think you've forgotten your shoes.

Samantha Bee (10:27)

You've forgotten my shoes.

Joanna Coles (10:28)

Just stay quiet. Just. Nothing good will come of this. Just stay quiet.

Samantha Bee (10:32)

Are you next door neighbors? Can you hear what's going on in his room?

Joanna Coles (10:37)

No, because I think he's two floors below me.

Samantha Bee (10:40)

Oh, my God. I don't know that I would have read anything because that's just. It's just a remarkable moment and I don't think you're going to get anything started. I'm amazed, though. I actually, I want to. I want to congratulate you for your restraint in not saying, would you like to come on the Daily Beast podcast?

Joanna Coles (10:58)

Because I almost did. I almost. I should have done. I then afterwards, I was cross with myself that I hadn't said, you need to come on the podcast. I could present it with Sam B. But I'm. I'm going to. I'm alert to the fact is here now. So I'm going to be. I'm going to be looking.

Samantha Bee (11:13)

Wow.

Joanna Coles (11:14)

Looking for him. We're going to be chasing him down.

Samantha Bee (11:16)

Chasing him down. Well, for the record, I don't want to talk to him on the podcast. That is not a good idea for us. No, thank you. No, thank you very much about his.

Joanna Coles (11:27)

His weird fashion statement. But I agree, we don't want to give that any publicity. But I do want to say how much I loved seeing Jane Fonda give her speech. She looks amazing. There was so much joy in the room and sort of appreciation for her and her lifetime of extraordinary work. Endless Oscars, endless Golden Globes, more nominations than anybody else, I think, in the room. And just fabulous to be in the same room as her.

Samantha Bee (11:55)

That's great.

Joanna Coles (11:55)

Yeah.

Samantha Bee (11:55)

Her speech was very rousing. Not arousing, but rousing. It was really good. I really like Jane Fonda tremendously. And, you know, I don't know really how much people in the outside world want to hear from celebrities right now, but I sure appreciated. I loved what she said. I thought it was. That was great.

Joanna Coles (12:15)

Well, and I think she was trying to be political without being too political. So that thing she said about woke is just showing that you give a damn. She was, I think, sensitive to the fact that I'm sure they'd all been told, do not be political.

Samantha Bee (12:27)

On this broadcast 100%.

Joanna Coles (12:29)

But she was trying to be human, and there was a sort of energy in the room which showed they understood the tightrope she was walking.

Samantha Bee (12:36)

Can you imagine actually pulling aside Jane Fonda before an awards presentation and saying, jane, love you so much. I really appreciate your life's work and all the causes you're so passionate about. Can you just keep it out of the realm of politics? She's like, oh, excuse, pardon. Excuse me. Let me just step outside. Can you just.

Joanna Coles (12:55)

Yeah. Well, whoever wrote her speech did a good job.

Samantha Bee (12:59)

Well, she was great. She was great. I'm excited to talk to Michael Wolf. You know, I don't really watch. I know the Academy Awards are coming up and I'm interested in, I want to talk about skincare and all that, all that jazz. But for me, the, the real Academy Awards is just talking to Michael Wolf and hearing all the good gossip.

Joanna Coles (13:17)

Well, his book is, as you know, so, so readable, and we're very excited to have him on.

Samantha Bee (13:22)

Yes.

Joanna Coles (13:24)

Okay, let's get to it. Let's take a quick break for some messages and then we'll be back to talk to our Beast of the Week. Michael Wolf.

Acast (13:34)

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Joanna Coles (14:42)

We'Re back and we're thrilled to be joined by this week's Beast of the Week, Michael Wolff. He's the author of the book that made tsunami like waves this week, all or Nothing How Trump Recaptured America. Wolf is a lifelong Trump chronicler. His first book, Fire and a behind the scenes expose of the first Trump administration was, as you can imagine, not well liked among MAGA supporters. And there's already been vehement pushback on the new book. The director of White House communications, Stephen Chung has referred to Wolf as a lying piece of shit and a fraud with a peanut sized brain. And in a joint statement, Trump campaign manager Chris Lavita and Trump policy advisor Jason Miller referred to Wolf's latest book as total garbage. Alina Haber, counselor to the President of the United States, warned Michael Wolff, prepare to hear from my lawyers. So, Michael, are you a lying piece of shit?

Acast (15:43)

Well, two things. First, it was a lying sack of shit.

Joanna Coles (15:49)

A lying sack of.

Acast (15:50)

This, the keen verbal facility of the White House communications staff and the. I just want to push back slightly on the lifelong implication here because I did have a life before Donald Trump, as we all did.

Joanna Coles (16:06)

It's hard to remember it now.

Acast (16:07)

It's, it's, it's hard to remember, you know, a month ago. So was your, just your, your question was, why did I go back?

Joanna Coles (16:15)

Yeah. I mean, you, this is your fourth book on Donald Trump. A, how has he changed from the first book, Fire and Fury, and B, what made you want to, to go in? And I mean, what's fascinating about the book is you started during the campaign. There was no sense of how the campaign would end. And you couldn't possibly have foreseen the extraordinary drama that was to unfold over the next nine months of the attempted assassination attempt of Biden stepping aside, of Kamala stepping into the ring. Just drama week after week.

Acast (16:46)

Well, I think you could anticipate, as you always can with Donald Trump, part of the spectacle or part of the charm even, that something unexpected and gobsmacking is going to happen. Certainly. I mean, at the beginning I thought, well, I mean, he's going to be indicted and, and there are going to be trials and he may well go to jail. And that would have certainly been dramatic. But oddly enough, it be. It was. I mean, that, that seemed to be the zenith of drama, but oddly enough, it actually has been even more dramatic than that. Something more difficult to anticipate the fact that he would defeat and defy the entire legal system and rise like a phoenix.

Samantha Bee (17:37)

People spoke to you for the book. How has the temperature changed since you. I mean, we can see in the blowback.

Acast (17:49)

Well, you know, I mean, I, I think, honestly I would say, I mean, and remember the people who speak to me, I mean, I've been doing this for so long and, and know these people or many of them so well. I mean, some, some, you know, they may even cross the line into, into friends, actually. And, and I would say that, I mean, the people around Donald Trump have much the same feelings as the people not around Donald Trump. I mean, they're incredulous about what goes on. And I think that they also felt like, I think most people probably reasonably and logically felt that there was no way he was going to actually be elected again. And so the temperature toward me and their own sense of, of what kind of hot water they might be in has changed with the election. So I think that they're pretty panicked and certainly at this point want to distance themselves from talking to me. Although having said that, they are still talking to me.

Samantha Bee (18:58)

Right. That's so interesting. Like, I always wonder, you know, I'm reading your book right now. I think it's fantastic. It's super, super interesting. And I wonder, with everybody in his orbit so incredulous about the way he conducts him himself, why do they continue wanting to be in his orbit? Is it actually worth it? Can you please describe that to me? I don't understand.

Acast (19:23)

Well, I mean, if you're in the political business and if you're a Republican and if you're a Republican political operative, you really have no alternative. I mean, the alternative is, is binary. You either go to the other side, you become a Democrat. I mean, which, which the, you know, effectively, the, the Republicans had come. All those bulwark people, you know, used to be mainstream Republicans. They're functionally Democrats now. So if you're, if you still see yourself in this role, then this is your, for better or worse, this is your fate.

Samantha Bee (20:03)

Are the people who spoke to you, they must be very, quite panicked because a lot of the scenarios that you describe in the book were in really close quarters without tons of people in the room. It seems like it would be very easy to determine who was, who was talking.

Acast (20:21)

Yes. I mean, I would say that the only thing that sort of mitigates this is that everybody was talking frankly.

Samantha Bee (20:28)

Right? Everybody is talking.

Acast (20:31)

So if you parse, it becomes difficult to parse who said what to whom.

Samantha Bee (20:36)

At which point is every administration like this?

Acast (20:40)

And also the other important thing is that Trump talks. So he is always talking. He is on the phone constantly. So everything that he says to someone else and whatever he says, he repeats, is quickly retailed. Throughout the Trump ecosystem, of which I have found the kind of place to be, in which I have found the.

Samantha Bee (21:06)

Place to be, is every administration filled with people who are just dying to talk about every moment of what's happening.

Acast (21:12)

No, not, not, not like this, not like this at, at all. I mean, there is always, there is always obviously an amount of leaking, but not a moment by moment, word by word. And you won't believe it. That's, that's how almost every phone call has begun with me over the past 18 months.

Samantha Bee (21:32)

Because the level of detail is exceptional. I mean, it's incredibly detailed. Your work, my goodness.

Joanna Coles (21:40)

I still don't understand why people talk to you, Michael. Why do they talk to you? Because what's in it for them?

Acast (21:47)

I mean, other than to blow my own horn that I am, I am good at this, I am a good listener. I am a non judgmental, I guess you, you, you might say. And over a long period of time, I've gotten to know these people and you know, honestly, I've written this is my fourth book. They've liked the other three books. It's an accurate portrait. It may be, you might judge it a devastating portrait, but this is, this is the life. I mean, these people are actually quite clear eyed about what has, what has happened to them. They are on this ride for better or worse, and it has been for both. They lose, they win, they win unexpectedly. And they all understand that's the deal. And they don't to themselves pretend that Donald Trump is anything but Donald Trump. And I think it's helpful for them to talk about that. I think it's interesting to talk to me because I've been on much of this ride with them.

Samantha Bee (22:53)

I think you're like a therapist to them. So they really open up to you because they need, they need to talk to somebody who understands the position that they're in, who, you know, I mean.

Acast (23:03)

I'm not like, you know, and I always try to sort of make this distinction between what political reporters do and what I do. If you're a political reporter for the Washington Post or Politico or the New York Times, you have an institutional response and institutional responsibility to how you interact with these, with these people. I don't have that at all. So I don't have to have an agenda. I don't have to have questions. I can just listen.

Samantha Bee (23:34)

Right, right.

Joanna Coles (23:35)

Trump said about you. And I know for the first book, Fire and Fury, you sat in the White House for nine months and just, it all went on around you and they barely understood what you were doing. Obviously, now they understand what you're doing. And I'm sure there must be some part of Donald Trump that thinks these Books are good for him because a, it just means people are talking about him. And once again, he's likely to be top of the book charts. He said about you in his denial that you're fake news. You're a total loser, one of his favorite words. And no one should waste their time or money in buying this obviously fictitious book. And then he says, I assume, however, he was able to speak to a small number of people. And then he adds, but not meaningfully, which in his response to your book, actually validates the book, that you did speak to people.

Acast (24:29)

Yeah. No, no. And if he says a small number of people, that probably means that he understands it was actually a large number of people and obviously his concern. And. And is he concerned, or is he just using me as a way to express his usual contempt and dominance? And it really has nothing to do with me, which I would think is probably the case. But maybe he is concerned that I did also speak to meaningful people. Although in Donald Trump's world, he doesn't consider anyone to be meaningful.

Samantha Bee (25:08)

Right, Right. What would you say is the primary way that he's changed? Because he has evolved. And what is your understanding of him now?

Acast (25:19)

You see, I don't really think he has evolved. I don't think he has changed. I think part of what Donald Trump does is not change and just continue to do what has always worked for what has worked for 40 years. He continues to do the same thing. He might continue to do more of it. And one of the things about what he does, which is generate conflict, you have to continue in order to maintain this. Your conflicts have to be bigger. And I think that's where we are now and why we're so kind of surprised and knocked back on our heels over what has happened in the last. In the last month, because the provocations are just greater.

Samantha Bee (26:10)

Is there any feedback that you think that he would receive from the public that would cause him to change course?

Acast (26:18)

He'll read the headlines. He reads the media as well as anyone. Better. Perhaps. Perhaps. I mean, he knows the signal. If his audience is not responding, he'll change the joke. I mean, he is like a comedian in that, you know, if he's not getting the laughs, if he's not getting the response, he'll. He'll find something else. And that does change. I mean, he doesn't get the response because people get bored with what he's doing. So then he has to ratchet up. He has to create some other kind of kind of conflict. I think it's a helpful Way to think about Donald Trump, to just think about the reactions he's looking for. Because it's all about reactions, not about policy. It's not about accomplishing anything. It's not about a legislative agenda. It's about reactions and the media reaction primarily.

Joanna Coles (27:14)

I guess.

Samantha Bee (27:14)

I wonder if you, do you have additional concerns with, you know, Cash Patel and all the people that he's put in place? Pam Bondi, do you have concerns? Because they're so vengeful? Because, you know, when we look at what happened at the Kennedy center, you know, it's impossible for us to trace it back, but people think it kind of like goes back to when he was first president in 2016, and like a, a slight against him that he held on to for all that time. Are you concerned about their desire to change libel laws, which they have expressed?

Acast (27:49)

Oh, terribly concerned. I mean, I think it is, it is. I mean, the, the media is in a very, very precarious position, A more precarious position, I might say, since, I don't know, you know, Joe McCarthy. I mean, it's extreme at this point.

Samantha Bee (28:10)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joanna Coles (28:11)

We're recording this on a Wednesday, and yesterday it was announced that they're going to decide who the press pool comprises of. Is that something we should all be concerned about? Yes.

Acast (28:22)

To me, the press pool has always been a kind of weird artifact that hangs around. Why do you have to be in the White House? That's just a performative thing on the part of the media.

Samantha Bee (28:34)

Susie Wiles is in your book. She's such a fascinating figure to me. Where is she right now? What do you know of what her thinking is right now?

Acast (28:45)

You know, she's keeping her head down. You know, she has survived in the Trump sphere because she's incredibly disciplined and understands that her singular role is make the trains run on time and anything else stay out of, I mean, she stays out of his way. Every other chief of staff has ultimately come to tears because they actually believe that they might be the real chief of staff. A real chief of staff, which is obviously not the case.

Joanna Coles (29:17)

So, Michael, what is it like for, for the people working around him? Are they all, I mean, there's so much of this book that reminds me of Wolf hall and the characters around kings, you know, like Henry viii. And one can only think of his, his wives, you know, divorce, beheaded, died. Divorce, beheaded, survived. Are they at each other's throats?

Acast (29:42)

Yeah, they, they, they, they hate each other. I mean, I think that they'll. That, that's, that, that's, that, that's really clear. I can hardly conceive of an atmosphere that's more fraught than this. They're always obsessed with who's leaking to whom, and they are all leaking. And then this jockeying for proximity around him and being in his favor or out of his favor and not wanting to be. To be associated with someone who is out of favor at any given time. I mean, so just think of this as a pyramid, and at the top is this figure, holy mercurial. Who. You can't predict what he's going to do, but your own survival means you kind of have to be somewhat successful in making those predictions. Everybody is moving either out of the way or in. In the way at any given period of time. You know, I mean, they're feeling it. And also, remember, he treats people terribly. I can't even imagine being spoken to in the way he speaks to people. You know, you're. Now, curiously, there's a reward. I mean, in, in my book, there's a lot of verbatim conversation, conversations, verbatim tirades toward his lawyers.

Samantha Bee (31:08)

Yes.

Acast (31:09)

And these are absolutely humiliating. You know, imagine being people who have had, who have had long and in some cases, very respectable legal, legal careers, being dressed down, you know, at one point, you know, in the middle of one of the trials, you know, he addresses the lawyers and says, and this is, he's saying this without irony. He's saying, have you ever heard of a man named Perry Mason? You know, that's interesting because all of his media references are, you know, decades and decades old. But it also is true. And, you know, I mean, what he really thinks of lawyers, they should be television lawyers. And so that they have to stand there and take this. And when he says, have you ever heard of a man named Perry Mason? That's not a rhetorical question. He wants an answer. Have you heard of him? Do you know what Perry does? How does Perry do what he does? You would think that this is, that these, that these people would say, I got to get out of here. I'm leaving. Why should I take this? And I suppose the reason that they should take this is that these people who he has shit on on a daily basis, they now run the Justice Department.

Joanna Coles (32:22)

How is Donald Trump managing with Elon Musk? Can you explain that relationship to us?

Acast (32:29)

My understanding from inside is that he's, you know, he's. There's a rising level of irritation. But having said that, Elon is very useful to him at this, at this point, Elon is out in front, is more out in front of this, of this, of things that fundamentally are probably unpopular. Firing people is never popular. So Elon will take the incoming on that. So that's useful to Donald Trump. At the same time, he's in this, you know, kind of, kind of. He's gotten himself into a sort of a difficult position because the media is saying, well, this relationship is going to end any day now, so therefore he can't do what the media says he's going to do. But I think the. Probably the model here, you know, Elon is actually in the Steve Bannon role from the first administration. I mean, they were both on the COVID of Time magazine as the real president, that kind of thing. And Bannon lasted for six months. So I think that that's probably the measure for Elon.

Samantha Bee (33:38)

And where does Melania live? Is there. It's such a point of discussion in the book, and I'm so curious. It's not really known, is it?

Acast (33:47)

It actually is sort of known. She doesn't live with him or they spend very, very, very little time together. You know, at one point in the book, someone describes it as whenever she's at the White House, Was at the White House or was at Mar A Lago, it's like she's a guest and she lives in. You know, basically she lives in Trump Tower now. Barron goes to NYU and they live together. If I were a freshman in college, that would be not exactly the circumstance I would want.

Joanna Coles (34:15)

Well, I don't know. I've seen some of the NYU dorms. I think Trump Tower would be preferable to the NYU dorms. But is Melania coming back onto the scene more? I mean, notably, she. She was absent for 18 months from the campaign.

Acast (34:30)

From the campaign, from any of the. Never made an appear. A trial appearance. Would not sit next to him at the, at the, at the convention on her. Fine. Her one appearance on the last day was contingent on him not being in the VIP box. But on the other hand, I think Melania is. I think they are. They are matched in their particular opportunism. You know, she. She published this absolutely peculiar book, which is.

Samantha Bee (34:59)

Oh, yes, I read it.

Acast (35:00)

My theory is that it's the first AI written bestseller.

Samantha Bee (35:04)

Oh, 100% agree. Hard agree.

Acast (35:07)

And there's no one even thanked in the book, probably because there is no one to thank.

Samantha Bee (35:12)

I don't even think she read it.

Acast (35:14)

Yeah, no, it's kind of extraordinary. And then. But she's having this documentary, you know, Jeff Bezos is paying her millions upon millions of dollars to do this Documentary directed by Brett Ratner, totally peculiar in every respect. And, you know, and just. And a payoff and a bit of. Again, this is her. This is her opportunity.

Samantha Bee (35:39)

What you call the journalistic elite, they are not. Are they not happy with you or what is their issue with your work?

Acast (35:47)

They all work for a company. They're all institutional players. I am the last, you know, and there used to be many, many, many people like me, but I seem to be the last independent player here.

Joanna Coles (36:02)

Right?

Acast (36:03)

And, you know, and I also try to always make this distinction, which people have, have trouble with, that there are, that there are political. Political reporters do something different than I do. I am a writer. I am not a political reporter. I'm not particularly even interested in politics. I'm interested in character. I'm interested in this incredible story for its own sake, not for how it relates to policy or legislative agenda or who ultimately is going to prevail in the Republican Party. I think many colleagues have some trouble with that. And also, I don't know, because I sell more books than they do. I don't know. But my main point is always what they do is fine. I mean, it's, it's great. It's just not what I do. And, and the important thing is, or always was to have different ways, different windows through which to see these events. And I am fundamentally a magazine writer, long form, whatever it is. And that was always a genre fundamentally about character. And now there are no magazines, so there are no magazine writers.

Joanna Coles (37:27)

So, Michael, understanding as you do Trump's character and his desire for reaction, what drives his apparent appeasement of Putin?

Acast (37:39)

Well, that is the question. I mean, this is the question that has been going on for nearly 10 years now. What does Vladimir Putin have on Donald Trump? What can Vladimir Putin give to Donald Trump? How does Trump benefit in this relationship? I mean, all of these questions, I think it's reasonable to presume, actually have an answer. We just don't know the answer. I mean, I sat around once with. After Trump had gone to meet with Putin in Helsinki, I believe, and this probably would have been in 2019, 1819. I sat around with Steve Bannon. We had actually gone to Europe together. And it was trying to figure out. Exactly. Was Steve trying to figure out what Trump, what Putin might have on Trump. It was with Bannon acknowledging that this was all too weird for words and that he described that news conference afterwards. Trump looked like a whipped dog. So what had Putin said to Donald Trump to bring him to heel? I mean, these are, this is a, this is a. I mean, that this may be the central question of our time.

Samantha Bee (38:56)

And also I kind of look at. I look at Marco Rubio now, just trying to parse these new developments in such a state of discomfort that it actually strikes me that I don't understand why he would want to be Secretary of State, knowing that he was going to have to kind of like knowing that he was going to be a part of appeasing Putin, knowing.

Acast (39:20)

It's so, so difficult to understand because, you know, on empirically, every relationship that Trump has had has ended in tears.

Samantha Bee (39:29)

Yes.

Acast (39:30)

So to assume that yours will not is. Is a level of denial I can't even imagine. Nevertheless, that's what all of these people have effectively done.

Samantha Bee (39:44)

Yeah.

Acast (39:44)

Effectively say that. Say to themselves, I can be the one person who is different, and the one person who actually has been different, who went the distance and emerged from it and benefited from it, is Jared Kushner. So I would say that's the example that people should be looking at, and they should. The fact that Jared is nowhere to be seen. They should be saying, what does he know that I don't know?

Samantha Bee (40:10)

Right. And I'm curious what you think that. Because with all of the nominees that he made who are just. He's chosen so many people who are totally unqualified for the positions they have now achieved, what is the benefit to Trump, who I don't think probably even thinks about the positions they've taken on certain issues. He's just. Was it so intentional to just choose people who are so. Such bizarre choices? Like, it is such a. Yeah, no.

Acast (40:41)

I think what, what. These are provocations.

Samantha Bee (40:45)

Right.

Acast (40:46)

You know, and in the book, I quote, a friend of Trump's is trying to analyze this, and this friend, having had a conversation with Trump about Bobby Kennedy Jr. And what's his name? Already forgotten his name. Gates.

Samantha Bee (41:05)

Oh, yeah.

Acast (41:06)

The.

Joanna Coles (41:09)

At.

Acast (41:10)

And Trump is saying, well, they all have women problems, so I can't wait to see how they handle that. And. And then this person interpreted, you know, Trump is not really concerned with the fires he sets. He's really what, what. What really is he finds compelling is the fire engines and all the noise and, and these, you know, big trucks heading down the street with their sirens on.

Samantha Bee (41:34)

So it's like, for him, it's like a real life version of watching Survivor.

Acast (41:40)

Yes. And it is really probably the most important thing to always keep in mind. Trump was the star of a top rated reality television show for 14 years. Not a year, not two. 14 years. I mean, you must internalize all of that kind of thing. What does a reality show have to do to keep its audience's attention?

Samantha Bee (42:05)

I find it so chilling. I told Joanna last week that I do think that what often happens is that he has, like, a really weird dream and then wakes up in the morning and thinks, I'm gonna do the thing. I dreamt this crazy thing last night. Should we do it? And everybody goes, oh, okay. And then they enact those visions.

Acast (42:25)

Yeah, I mean, the diff. I mean, that's absolutely true. The only difference is they don't say, oh, okay. They say, oh, fuck.

Samantha Bee (42:32)

Right. Well, to you, they say that.

Acast (42:34)

And then they have to figure out what to do, how. How little they can get away with doing.

Samantha Bee (42:40)

Right.

Joanna Coles (42:41)

How do you suspect this second go round is going to end in tears?

Acast (42:46)

It always does end in tears. I mean, the remarkable thing about Donald Trump is it ends in tears and then he comes back again. But certainly everything that is going on by any reasonable measure, by any logic, is unsustainable. This is, you know, provocations at a. At a. At a punk rock level. There's ultimately no point to them except the provocation itself. And eventually, you know, this is, you know, the whole idea of an autocrat, of a despot, all of that is very difficult, if not impossible, if not ridiculous even to consider in a society that is as complex as this one. I mean, it is eventually it. Rebel, all of this. The powers that be and there are fierce, fierce, fierce powers. Rebel, you know, I mean, you know, if the bond market goes south, you're out of business. I mean, no matter who you are, no matter. No matter. No matter, you know, no matter how rich you are, no matter how powerful you believe, no matter how. How the Republican Party is at your feet. I mean, I don't remember who said in the last number of years that a politician, maybe it was Obama, you know, when he died, he'd like to come back as the bond market. You know, there are forces out there, many forces, not a few. And now, you know, Trump is trying to, you know, screw with the Pentagon, with the military. Well, good luck with that.

Samantha Bee (44:28)

Well, well, Michael, your book is delectable. I'm enjoying it so thoroughly. And I just really love your work. And I hope you're already writing a fifth book.

Acast (44:40)

I really hope I am not.

Samantha Bee (44:41)

I really somehow unfortunately begin on their own. Thank you so much.

Acast (44:48)

Thank you. And I'll speak to you both soon.

Joanna Coles (44:56)

Welcome back. We're joined now by the president of People magazine, Leah Wire, to get the download on all the Crazy shit that people do to prepare for awards season. Of course, there's the Oscars on Sunday, and we want to know exactly what people have been up to. Leah, it's great to have you back. And frankly, it's very brave of us to have you back, because after you came on to talk about Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, our YouTube was just full of comments about how we knew nothing, how it was all the Baldini X basically came out to hate on you. So welcome back.

Samantha Bee (45:35)

Joanna. You just called him Baldini. You're gonna get so much flack about that.

Joanna Coles (45:40)

Well, I was trying to say Baldini, but it didn't come out properly. Spell Donia Baldonia.

Samantha Bee (45:50)

So much trouble.

Leah Wire (45:51)

I know everyone's passionate, Very passionate about him. A lot of passionate Beldoniettes.

Samantha Bee (45:58)

A lot of passion.

Joanna Coles (46:00)

One of the favorite things I used to do when I was at Cosmopolitan and Leah was the beauty director there was. We used to discuss the crazy shit that people would do to get ready for awards ceremonies. And Leah is the keeper of the secret. But Leah just. We saw each other at the SAG Awards. I was a guest at the people table. Thank you so much. People look incredible. I mean, the truth is, is that in that month of the SAG Awards, the Golden Globes, the Oscars, people do look superhuman. You feel when you're an ordinary person, like I am a mere mortal, that you are three times the size of everybody else, that you're twice as short. I felt this year everybody had gotten very tall. There was some really, really tall celebrities, and I'm fascinated by how they manage it. Tell us, tell us how we, too, could look superhuman.

Leah Wire (46:54)

Well, if you get a pair of five or six inch heels, you. We can all be that tall. I think the heels have gotten higher. Not the humans.

Joanna Coles (47:03)

Oh, interesting, interesting. I was in sneakers because I just couldn't take the heels anymore.

Leah Wire (47:07)

Well, you looked amazing. But I was. I was in probably the highest heels I've ever worn to an event. And I have to tell you, today I am so sore. Like, my hips are so sore. I was also in a very, very, very tight dress. And so I had to kind of like, contort my body to, like, stay on the heel and not, like, ruin the dress. And it is painful. It's painful. What people go through to get themselves to this place and to look so amazing. And so to answer your question, it's everything. It's like we've never been in a place in society before where we could openly talk about weight loss in the way that we've talked about in the last few months with this Ozempic craze. And, you know, that alone, people. I mean, there's some people who are super open about it. Kathy Bates has talked about it. Oprah Winfrey has talked about it. Like, it's. It's a. We should be having an open conversation of what this is. But there is always the dark side of people going too far. And I do think you do see that in the award shows. Like, people are so thin and thin to a degree that does make skinny people like yourself, Joanna, feel three times the size of everybody else. Like, you're.

Joanna Coles (48:20)

I'm just normal, but up. But my arms up against Demi Moore's arms. Demi Moore's arms. I could barely see them. They were just translucent. They're so thin.

Leah Wire (48:31)

At this point, I do think, like, this has to be an incredibly stressful season for her. Right? Like, she came. That Globe speech was unbelievable. And that whole movie, to me is just, you know, I watched it the other night. I don't know. Have you. Either of you watched it?

Joanna Coles (48:47)

Oh, yeah, of course. We watched it obsessively. Yeah.

Leah Wire (48:51)

So, you know, I don't think I was expecting what it ended up being at the end. You know, the first hour is so riveting, and it's. So. As a woman, you're sitting there shaking your head like, yes, I totally get this. I totally understand why she feels this way, why she wants to take this shot to make herself younger. And then, you know, the Alaska hour kind of is. You're. If you're not prepared for the blood and gore, it's a little disturbing, but it is very symbolic of what happens in this world and what happens in Hollywood after a certain age. And that, I think, is the reason why people sometimes can go off the rails with this stuff. But getting back to your original question, it's like, what are people not doing? Like, they're. They're. They're working out crazy crazily. They're probably a lot of them, you know, taking Some sort of GLP1.

Joanna Coles (49:42)

I remember you telling me that one year it was the red wine diet where people didn't.

Samantha Bee (49:47)

Yeah, what is that? I want to know that you don't.

Joanna Coles (49:50)

Eat or drink for five days, and then already impossible. And then an hour before you go to the awards, you take. You have a glass of red wine, and it's supposed to pull you all together. The impact of the wine. That was certainly a craze. One year. Is there a specific craze this year, Leah?

Leah Wire (50:10)

Okay, so I think what's interesting is that people do take that fasting element. And now because fasting has become so healthy, you kind of convince yourself that you're being healthy with your, with your fast. And so it's like the water fast a couple of days before that whole red wine thing. Interestingly, I was talking to my husband about it and he was like, yeah, don't you know the, like the biggest fighter in the world. His name's like Ilya Toporia. He has admitted that before a weigh in he goes and he has, he has wine the night before because it's a diuretic. Like it, it takes like all the water out and you end up weighing in a few pounds less. So like there's actual science behind that. I don't know how healthy it is, but there is science behind why people do that. I think the, the fasting stuff is hugely popular. You know, maybe going a dose or two beyond your normal ozempic dose is certainly happening. And you know, then it's like all the beauty stuff that's. That, that goes into it. You know, you're, you, you got to time the Botox, you got to time the fillers, you got to time all this stuff so that you don't look bruised, but you look like perfect. And the, all the facials that are, I mean, there's so many facials now that are just, they're just staples. Like the, the, the we. You and I used to go, Remember Joanna, you and I used to go to this woman that would do the facials with like her fingers in your mouth and she would like massage the inside of your mouth to kind of release the tension at like the jaw.

Joanna Coles (51:43)

I do, she would, she would wear rubber gloves and she was supposed to be Kate Mosses massage person and she would put her fingers right up. It was the most painful thing, but it was very effective.

Leah Wire (51:55)

That technique is almost like the norm now. It's like a deep tissue facial massage that kind of like gets everything more symmetrical because when you have like that tension all over the place, like you don't always look as symmetrical as you want to look. It gets sort of the blow, like the cupping on the face now is like everybody's doing the cupping with the facials beforehand to get rid of, like to just get that much smoother jawline. So so much going in. There are these crazy serums now that they incorporate into a lot of facials that contain a lot of enzymes and like albumin, which is like that what you see on the inside of an Eggshell. And you put that on your face and it just like tightens it all up. And even if it's, even if you wash it off, the effect that that tightening has with like pushing the circulation and pushing the oxygen up is supposed to have like a longer term effect. So, like, you'll get that the day before, 48 hours before. So it's like all the timing that you have to do to make sure that on that day you look really glowy, you don't have any bruising, everything's in the right place. And, you know, it does make a difference to the way your makeup can. Can look and on your face and how you feel, confidence wise.

Samantha Bee (53:13)

Everybody's so glowy right now. I'm watching the White Lotus and I'm looking at Michelle Monahan skin and I'm like, what is happening on your face? Like, you're lit so beautifully, but also your skin just looks like it's like a beautiful glass, but like you want to touch it like a silky.

Leah Wire (53:33)

It's funny, Sam, because I was watching it last night and I had the same reaction. Like, right, the. I mean, they're very youthful, full. All of this cast, of course, they.

Samantha Bee (53:42)

Look amazing, but they look amazing.

Leah Wire (53:43)

And you know that the lighting in the location they're shooting is quite perfect. So let's give, you know, us mortals some credit too. We're not, we're not in the South Pacific, but.

Joanna Coles (53:56)

And do. Do celebrities get all these treatments free or are they paying?

Samantha Bee (54:01)

That's a great question. That's a great one.

Leah Wire (54:04)

I think it's a toss up a lot of, A lot of, like the hair and makeup people, these are people that these celebrities really just contract to be at their beck and call a lot of times. And that costs money. Like, they're not doing that for free. And that is certainly paid work. And those people absolutely deserve to be paid every penny. I think from the skin side, there are some facialists and estheticians, doctors for that matter, who want the publicity of being associated with a certain celebrity. And so they will offer some or all services for free because they know this person will talk about them and show off their work. And it's a reflection of what they do. And then some of them, they just want the cash, right? So it's a little bit of a trade off, I think, depending on who you are, what caliber celebrity that you are. Some of these A listers, if they're willing to say, I get my facials by X or so, and so did my Botox or whatever, it is they do sometimes do get them for free.

Samantha Bee (55:01)

What happens if you go get Botox and you just get like. I remember the first time I ever got it for my little elevens, which I. I love. I was like, what happens if I'm just a person who reacts poorly to it? And I get the. And my eyelid droops and it lasts for six months.

Leah Wire (55:17)

So the good thing is that they can inject something else which will dissolve that and it will, you know, the terror. Give you back the. The symmetry, the whatever it is that's bothering you. Actually, when I went for my Botox a couple of weeks ago, that was the last thing the doctor said was, like, you got to live with it for two weeks, and if it looks weird, come back and we'll fix it. And so, like, they can fix it, but also it goes back to all the timing that you're putting into, you know, up until the day, like, if it goes bad, you're not accounting for it going bad. You're not accounting for maybe needing an extra shot, getting an extra bruise. You know, the. It's all this. We're living the substance in real life, people.

Joanna Coles (55:56)

We are living the substance in real life. I. I've never had cupping on my face. I think Sam and I need to go and get some cupping.

Leah Wire (56:03)

Oh, cupping. And also this salmon sperm facial is all the rage these days. I don't know if you guys have read about this thing, but. No, but if we're talking about the glow, that's the thing that everybody's talking about right now, and it is true. Salmon sperm going on to your salmon sperm.

Joanna Coles (56:19)

I don't even understand how salmon would produce enough sperm to cover a face.

Samantha Bee (56:25)

I don't know. I don't understand the science behind going, you know what we should try on our faces? The semen of an underwater creature. Like, yeah, let's just put it on. It's. They glow under the water.

Joanna Coles (56:39)

Let's try it.

Leah Wire (56:41)

Yeah, they. They have that beautiful color. The crazy thing is that in Korea, where this really started to get traction on TikTok, they're injecting it, and so you can't do America. At least you're not supposed to yet. Yet, but. So it's more topical in America, but the place where it started, they are injecting it. So there's. My gosh, who knows? I mean, there's so many crazy things. At one point, I think people were putting, like, like, placenta on their face or like some kind of crazy embryonic something. So it's Just always something new. This is the beauty of the beauty world, the beauty of marketing.

Samantha Bee (57:16)

I can't try stuff like, I can't do, like a salmon semen in my under subcutaneously, because I would grow scales. I'd be like, the first. I'd be like the first test case. They'd be like, oh, she became a fish woman. She morphed.

Joanna Coles (57:34)

Swim really well. I mean, it would be good.

Samantha Bee (57:36)

Oh, my God, no. Jesus.

Leah Wire (57:38)

Joanna, I had a question for you because when. You know, being there with you was so fun because it kind of brought back so many memories of our past lives together. And one of the things that I remembered was when you invited Cynthia Erivo to Michael's. We did this very small lunch of 10 people, and you not only got Cynthia Erivo there in the height of her Color Purple moment, but you actually got her to sing at the restaurant. Do you remember that?

Joanna Coles (58:07)

I do. And I remember her coming by to the office and singing with Michael Buble, who weirdly, just happened to be there. The two of them dropped in because at Cosmo, we would have all sorts of people just drop in, and the two of them sang a duet, which I have on my phone, but we weren't allowed to put on social media because it would infringe copyright of the song. But I'm so thrilled for Cynthia's success. She's such an a. She's got an unbelievable out of. Out of this world voice, but she's such a sort of decent, nice person. It was very sweet of her to sing. I think she. She did she sing Happy Birthday. What does she sing at Michael's?

Leah Wire (58:44)

I can't think of what it was, but it was almost like an old sort of like 40s or 50s song. Like, it was. Had like that kind of a vibe, and it was just beautiful. I have it on my phone too. And I think, like, now I'm. My niece wants to watch it all the time because she's obsessed with Wicked. And she's just like, I can't believe you met this person. And it was, you know, it's really cool to watch her. I watched her walk through all the red carpet interviews, and she was so. She's such a, like, good human and such a gracious person. She stops for everybody. But at the very end of the carpet, there was this sea of people that much like social media reporters. And they all did the rally cry from Wicked when she walked to them, and they were, you know, and she just loved it so much. And she was just dressed in that Oh, I just loved her look. It was a Givenchy dress, and Jason Bolden, who I just think is one of the best designers or one of the best stylists in Hollywood, dressed her. And I think they said it was kind of reminiscent of, like, a Tin man look. It was really a cool look. It was one of my favorites, that one. And the Anna Sawai from that Armani Prive that was like that red, and it kind of had like a. An open section on the side. It was so gorgeous. But I did enjoy the. The fashion at sag. I thought I was a little nervous that because of the fires, that people were going to play it safe this award season. And I loved that at sag, people took some risks and. And it was. It was interesting.

Samantha Bee (60:09)

When can I get all of these outfits on quints? Soon.

Joanna Coles (60:14)

Two weeks. Very soon. Very soon. Thank you. And they'll all be $50, or of.

Samantha Bee (60:19)

Course, they have to be.

Joanna Coles (60:22)

Leah, it's always a pleasure to have you on. I know you're tracking the Baldoni and Blake Lively suit for us. Is there anything new we need to know?

Leah Wire (60:31)

She did file the amended complaint last week, and that was mostly to do, I think, with having a little bit more of like a protective order, because I think she is going through it. Whoever side you're on, they're both completely stressed out. Right. So, like, I don't know how you. It must be very difficult to wake up every day having to mother these children, having to just sort of show up in the world and know that, like, this is weighing on you. So I think that was like, a lot of what that, that amended thing had to do with was just like, I can. I can't get out of bed and operate each day, and what is this going to do to my future, my businesses? And I just need a little bit more confidentiality in this case right now. That was sort of like the update that, that I have seen and I. I totally get right. So I don't know. It's a tricky one. There's a lot of. It's very polarizing, but we shall see how this plays out. I do think it's. It's calming down, though, a little bit. I don't think it's as in the news as much, and I think both sides are maybe pulling back, so we'll see if that lasts.

Joanna Coles (61:37)

I think they're going to need UN peacekeepers in to figure it out anyway. We're going to rely on you to keep us updated with it, and we will look forward to having you Back on soon Fun.

Leah Wire (61:48)

Thank you.

Samantha Bee (61:49)

Thank you so much.

Joanna Coles (61:54)

Okay, so I. I do think we ought to try cupping.

Samantha Bee (61:56)

Does that. Okay, just stop me if I'm wrong, but cupping causes gigantic bruises all over your body. What is happening?

Joanna Coles (62:05)

I think the bruises indicate that we are celebrity level beauty hounds, but actually, it's signaling. If I have cupping along my jaw, it's signaling I know what's going on in Hollywood and I need to be.

Samantha Bee (62:20)

Joanna, I hate to tell you this, but you and I are two professional street rats. We live in this world. We can't take 12 days off to, like, live at home and lounge around while our bruises heal.

Joanna Coles (62:36)

We will be swollen street rats. I imagine that we're like that rat that picked up the piece of pizza and scurvy.

Samantha Bee (62:43)

Two pizza rats. Two working woman pizza rats in New York City scrambling around. Yeah. There's no world in which we have the time to recover properly from cupping on our face. And we'll be swollen. We will just look like we were horribly. Like we got pushed in front of a subway train and still somehow made it to work. It's terrible.

Joanna Coles (63:09)

All right, all right.

Samantha Bee (63:11)

Well, there's no time to recover.

Joanna Coles (63:15)

There's no time to recover. But if you have been. Thank you for listening to this week's podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please tell all your friends and tell all the people you don't know, but you want to be your friends and keep sending us those emails.

Samantha Bee (63:29)

Oh, yeah, send the emails to beastpod@the dailybeast.com or drop a healthy comment on YouTube. Tell us how we can improve for you.

Joanna Coles (63:41)

There was some good comments last week about my own blusher, which I had done myself, and it said it looked like I had a sort of of traffic crossing on my. On my cheek, which, in fact, it did. When I looked at it, I was like, how did I not even notice that? So I like those comments. Keep them coming. And if you're not a subscriber to the Daily Beast, why not? It couldn't be easier. Go to DailyBeast.com and sign up for a membership.

Samantha Bee (64:04)

And. And you all know, as my muse most poetically once said, get out there and just be best.

Joanna Coles (64:13)

Oh, she said beast.

Samantha Bee (64:16)

Damn it. Damn it. I'm going to get it right one day. Or not. She's bringing back Be Best, right? I hope so.

Joanna Coles (64:24)

I hope so.

Samantha Bee (64:25)

That'll be.

Joanna Coles (64:25)

Oh, my God. That would be fantastic.

Samantha Bee (64:27)

That'll be so good. So good for me. Be more best. Be even more best, children.

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Acast (65:13)

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World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that.

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Hi, I'm Kara Berry, host of Everyone's Business But Mine. Think of me as your new friend and fellow busybody as I talk about everything under the pop culture sun, from the best way to detect a celebrity breakup or pregnancy to recapping your favorite reality TV shows from the Housewives cinematic universe. Welcome to Plattesville, Kardashians, and so much more. So check out Everyone's Business But Mine, Airing multiple times a week everywhere you listen to podcasts.

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