Paranoid Trump Haunted by Epstein's Ghost: Wolff

Summary

Inside Trump's Head: "Paranoid Trump Haunted by Epstein's Ghost"

Podcast: Inside Trump’s Head
Hosts: Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles
Date: October 1, 2025
Episode Theme: An exploration of Donald Trump’s obsessions, vulnerabilities, and the ever-spiraling drama within his White House, with a special focus on the fear surrounding the Epstein files and Trump's relationship with power, image, and enemies.

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles peel back the layers of Donald Trump’s psyche, examining how image, performance, paranoia, and grievance inform his decision-making and public persona. Central to the conversation is Trump’s profound anxiety over the unseen threat represented by Jeffrey Epstein’s files, and how this specter – along with power struggles, performative masculinity, and grudge matches with figures like James Comey – drives his conduct and shapes the political landscape.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of Image and “Trumpian” Masculinity

• Dress Codes as Power:
  • Trump world prizes a very specific, retrograde aesthetic: suits, clean-shaven faces, and a 1950s ideal of male appearance ([03:20-04:00]).
  • "It's a big thing in Trump world how you dress...if you're a man, you have to wear a suit." – Michael Wolff ([03:20])
• Beards as Controversy:
  • The hosts discuss Pete Hegseth’s edict against beards in the military. They riff on facial hair as a cultural symbol, referencing their own preferences and jokes about beards as “very porn starry mustaches” ([06:36-07:00]).
  • Joanna reveals she had pognophobia, a fear of beards, making the segment both personal and satirical.

The Military, Masculinity, and Spectacle

• Hegseth, vying for Trump’s approval, orchestrates a “warrior culture” meeting focused on masculinity, anti-progressive changes, and eliminating beards–something the hosts find trivial and performative ([08:22-12:07]).
• "The military are the reasonable people, and the civilian authorities are the whack jobs." – Michael Wolff ([09:40])
• Discussion of military parades (Chinese, British, American), Trump’s discomfort among generals, and the shift from “bomb them into the Stone Age” soldiers to technocratic leaders who use PowerPoint, a style Trump despises ([14:16-15:36]).

Looming Government Shutdown: Inside Trump’s Political Calculus

• A government shutdown is imminent, and Wolff predicts Democrats, lacking a compelling narrative, are about to miss a critical chance to seize the public’s attention ([17:59-21:06]).
• "What would be electrifying? [Democrats] have the opportunity that they have is for all eyes to be on them. And so they need a message... We will close down the government until the Trump White House releases the Epstein files." – Michael Wolff ([21:06])
• Joanna agrees, quipping, “It’s the Epstein file, stupid. That should be the new cry” ([26:18]).

The Epstein Files: Trump’s Ultimate Fear

• Wolff repeatedly underscores that the biggest threat haunting Trump is the potential release of the Epstein files ([01:44, 22:22, 25:54]).
• “There is only one obvious weakness for Donald Trump, one obvious threat. It's Epstein.” – Michael Wolff ([25:54])
• The idea is that Democrats could force the release of incriminating or embarrassing material if they were less bureaucratic and more daring.

Grudges and Obsessions: The Case of James Comey

• The episode dives into Trump’s near-obsessive enmity toward James Comey, his discomfort with Comey’s height, and the belief that the fired FBI director and his daughter are involved in “Epstein leaks” against him ([28:53-36:13]).
• “One of the other takeaways from that [first] interaction…is that Comey is very tall….Trump…had enormous problems dealing with this.” – Michael Wolff ([30:00])
• Wolff lays out the chronology and connections: Comey’s daughter worked on Epstein’s case; Comey’s firing led to Mueller’s appointment; theories about targeted leaks fuel Trump’s suspicion.

Law, Media, and the Trump Library

• The hosts mock the qualifications of certain Trump-appointed prosecutors and the symbolic use of the “Trump Library” as a slush fund or lifestyle business ([44:05-48:46]).
• Wolff recounts asking Trump about his library, which caused Trump rare discomfort, as it implied permanent departure from power, until Wolff rescued the exchange by suggesting the library could be a theme park ([45:13-47:16]).
  • “I said, you know, a presidential library doesn't have to have books. It can be...a Trump theme park. And he clearly brightened at that idea." – Michael Wolff ([47:16])
• Discussion of how the Trump “brand” and merchandising (e.g., Kai Trump’s Ryder Cup shirts) pervade even governmental spaces ([17:32, 40:54]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump and the Military:
  “The military are the reasonable people, and the civilian authorities are the whack jobs.” – Michael Wolff ([09:40])

• On Democratic Messaging and Epstein:
  "You just need a symbol. What is the mission here?...the one thing that people across the political spectrum believe would shed some truth on what's going on." – Michael Wolff ([22:22])

• On James Comey:
  "Comey is 6 foot 8. Trump...had enormous problems dealing with this....there was always an effort to choreograph this, of having Comey seated before Trump came into the room..." – Michael Wolff ([30:00])

• On the Trump Library:
  "The fact that he's talking about a presidential library now, I think is a fair indication that he's looking forward to being out of office and not having a third term." – Michael Wolff ([47:11])
  "A presidential library doesn't have to have books. It can be...a Trump theme park. And he clearly brightened at that idea." – Michael Wolff ([47:16])

• On Trump’s Enduring Style:
  “He's from an age when there weren't beards....That was a no beard generation.” – Michael Wolff ([51:01])

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Epstein Files as Trump’s “Obvious Weakness” – [01:44, 22:21, 25:54]
• Trump, Suits, and Masculinity in Trump World – [03:05-04:17]
• Military Culture, Hegseth, and the Generals – [08:22-12:42]
• Government Shutdown, Senate Stalemate – [17:59-21:03]
• Epstein Files as Missed Political Opportunity – [22:21-26:18]
• The Trump–Comey Grudge and Height Complex – [28:53-36:13]
• The Trump Library as Theme Park – [44:45-48:46]
• Merchandising and the Rose Garden – [17:32, 49:31]
• Reflection on Trump’s No-Beard Era – [51:01-51:15]

---

Tone, Banter, and Final Takeaways

Michael Wolff brings a tone of dry insight and irony, while Joanna Coles offers wit, personal asides, and a running commentary on the absurdity and theatricality of Trumpian politics. The episode weaves serious political consequences with asides on personal appearances, bureaucratic bumbling, and the blurred line between governance and spectacle in Trump’s America. There is persistent skepticism of both major parties’ effectiveness but a laser focus on Trump’s unique blend of self-preservation, branding, and paranoia.

For those interested in the mechanics of power, media, and Trump’s almost mythic sense of grievance, this episode is both revealing and darkly entertaining.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

If you're a smoker or vaper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zyn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zynn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus Zynn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zyn. Check out zyn.com find to find Zyn at a store near you. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should 1. It's $15 a month.

[Joanna]

2.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Seriously, it's $15 a month.

[Michael Wolff]

3.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

No big contracts.

[Joanna]

4.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

I use it. 5. My mom uses it.

[Michael Wolff]

Are you.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront.

[Commercial Announcer]

Payment of $45 for three month plan $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer full price plan options available, Taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com.

[Michael Wolff]

Acast powers the world's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Danny Pellegrino]

The Real Housewives is a guilty pleasure for most. But if you're looking to not feel guilty about that pleasure, tune in to Everything Iconic with me, Danny Pellegrino, where I break down all the messy moments and behind the scenes antics of Bravo's popular franchise. On Everything Iconic, I also interview celebrity guests like Kelly Ripa, Keke Palmer, Drew Barrymore, Cameron Diaz and more about their guilty pleasures, their past work, and so much more. So if you're pop culture obsessed and find yourself watching way too much reality TV like me, tune into Everything Iconic with Danny Pellegrino. Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Michael Wolff]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com it's the Epstein Files. It's Epstein. There is only one obvious weakness for Donald. Donald Trump. One obvious threat. It's Epstein.

[Joanna]

Michael, it's been too long. Where are we going? It's time for a trip. Where are we going?

[Michael Wolff]

We are going inside Donald Trump's head. And again, I just want to know that what is missing in so much discussion, and there is so much discussion about Donald Trump is really getting and trying to understand the motivations of the strangest person I know, you know, or anyone that we know has ever known.

[Joanna]

Michael Wolf, your blazer blends into the background so much that it's like you're a strip of blue with a head on top of it.

[Michael Wolff]

A suit. It's a suit.

[Joanna]

It's very smart. Very smart.

[Michael Wolff]

Thank you. A full day.

[Joanna]

I think, actually, under Pete Hegseth's new rules, you could automatically join the armed services. Should you say desire.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I mean, it's a big thing in Trump world how you dress, and specifically, if you're a man, you have to wear a suit. I mean, it's actually sort of killing suits in the wider world, because all you. You put on a suit, you look like somebody who works in the Trump White House.

[Joanna]

Well, I. I am very interested in his theory that no one in the military should have a beard unless they work for special services. Does that mean that people in the military currently have a beard have to immediately shave it off, in which case, if they are working undercover, it will become completely obvious?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, they will shave it because, you know, I mean, he issues these. These dress edicts, and people follow them. I mean, they follow them because actually, they're among the most important things in Trump world, how you look.

[Joanna]

Because it's all casting for television, right?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, it's not only casting for television. It's casting for a point in time. I mean, this is, you know, when America was great and how Americans looked during that time. I mean, that's what goes on in Trump's head. He has a specific vision, and the vision often involves things that happened decades and decades ago.

[Joanna]

So Don Jr. And J.D. vance both have beards. Is this a shot across J.D. vance's bow from Pete Hegseth, who clearly wants to take over from Trump at some point? I mean, they're all now gunning for his job, correct?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I don't. You know, that is this interesting thing. And I always thought that J.D. vance was trying to actually position himself as Trump's son, so therefore he would look like Trump's sons. And since Trump doesn't like his sons, he might shift his attention and favor.

[Joanna]

To JD So JD And Pete Hegseth are arguably in a competition for Trump's affection. And I'm sympathetic to Pete Hegseth on the beard front because I don't like beards. And I don't know if I've ever told you this. I actually had a phobia of beards when I was younger. It's called pognophobia. It's a real thing, and I don't know where it stemmed from. But I. I'm also slightly phobic around beards, so I share that with him. And also Pete Hegseth strikes me as a sort of American Doll of a man. He has all those stars and stripes accessories. He has his pocket sheaf, pocket handkerchief. He has his socks that are stars and stripes. And I don't feel that American Doll would do a beard like Ken doesn't have a beard in Barbie and Ken.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I. Well, actually, beards are. You know, there. There is a Clean Cut America, which is Trump's version, and Clean Cut America did not have beards. My father, for instance, did not trust men with beards or mustaches. He was particularly. Mustaches particularly.

[Joanna]

Well, they're very porn starry mustaches, aren't they? I mean, Burt Reynolds had a mustache. And, you know, there was that whole naked spread in Cosmopolitan which Hirst always wanted me to replicate with a modern male star. And of course, you know, nobody wanted to do it.

[Michael Wolff]

No, there's a first. A picture of me on my first book from many decades ago in which I have a mustache and oh, my.

[Joanna]

God, we have to find that picture.

[Michael Wolff]

And in fact, look quite like a porn star of the moment.

[Joanna]

Okay, that's making me feel very uneasy indeed.

[Michael Wolff]

Weren't you once married to a man with a beard?

[Joanna]

Well, he has a beard now. He didn't have a beard when I married him.

[Michael Wolff]

Fair enough.

[Joanna]

And I think beards are very sort of COVID Right. Everybody grew a beard. I think I should explain to people why I'm fumbling with right words this morning. It's cause I'm on a lot of painkillers. You are in the studio. I am actually at home. Because I've had surgery recently and are mainlining painkillers, which may make me speak strangely. And if I do, you have to indicate you have to do a hand gesture in some way.

[Michael Wolff]

I think you're in better form this morning, actually. Perhaps it's.

[Joanna]

Well, maybe. Maybe they're making me more articulate, in which case. But Pete Hegseth pulled together all the top generals to basically put them in a room and tell them he wanted them to embrace their warrior status. The politically correct culture of the military is now over. And they. He didn't want trans, I think, in the military, and he definitely doesn't want beards, which seems like something you could have sent in an hr.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. I mean, let's go on to the more alarming aspect of this. And the alarming aspects of this is that once the constitutional structure, it basically says that civilian authority is in control of the military because we didn't trust people in the military. I mean, the military they were very narrow, focused. They did not have the worldly and intellectual depth to see the full picture. Now, we have a kind of reversal here in which the military and throughout. Throughout the military or the higher ranks, there is nearly universal skepticism of the people in charge, that is to say, the executive branch and the White House. So it's a reversal. The military are the reasonable people, and the civilian authorities are the whack jobs.

[Joanna]

So to what extent is this? Because both Hegseth and Donald Trump. And this is going to sound like a trite question, but I don't mean it like that. Have been exposed to two very impressive displays of military pomp and circumstance, once most recently in Shanghai with Xi in charge, and that remarkable display of the Chinese military with all sorts of weapons. And then, of course, harking back to the past. But the British military, which, you know, the. The Brits can no longer do very many things, but they can put on a good military parade.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't know. I mean, I think more. More immediately, you have the hag Sith problem. He is trying to. To project his authority, which he does not normally. I mean, does not naturally have. And I think throughout the. Throughout the Pentagon, there is a real sense that Pete Hagseth is a joke, and he knows that, and he's trying to do something to overcome that. And I think that there is a lot of pressure on him from Trump to be a man. And so his version of being a man is to command all the generals to appear in one place, which actually strikes me as a kind of major security concern.

[Joanna]

Totally. That's exactly what I thought. Security concern. And also at a time when they're threatening to fire people if there's a government shutdown, an enormous waste of money. I mean, this is literally an HR memo. Any normal company, including Fox, where he used to work as a. As a weekend host, would have sent out a memo saying, hey, guys, no beards from Monday.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, this is. It's. I. I can't even begin to think what. What would be the operational purpose of this. I mean, this is. Even the PR purpose seems. Seems pretty vague. I mean, it's all about Pete Hagseth. And then it's interesting. So Pete Hagseth called this. This meeting to project his authority, but then Trump elbowed his way in, thereby diminishing Pete Hegseth's authority.

[Joanna]

Right. And then he came in and he said, oh, I've never heard a run so quiet. I. E. Pete hasn't done anything to sort of rally the troops Here literally rallied the troops. And then he went off on his weave about various things, but saying, you can laugh if you want. You don't have to laugh. But it sounded like he feels uncomfortable in a room full of generals, too, because a. From his first term in office, he didn't trust the generals around him because they were undermining his more ludicrous thoughts. But also, he spent many years avoiding doing national service and, you know, earned the nickname President Bone Spurs.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, a whole generation of people, including yours truly, avoided that.

[Joanna]

But did you also have bone spurs?

[Michael Wolff]

No, but I, I had a. I had. I had flat feet.

[Joanna]

Well, flat feet, I think, is a real reason not to join the military, isn't it? Whereas bone spurs seemed.

[Michael Wolff]

It's not a real reason.

[Joanna]

Oh, it's not a real reason. Okay. All right. Well, you and Trump have something in common that you both wanted to avoid active warfare.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, we both wanted to avoid, actually, more specifically Vietnam, you might recall.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So.

[Joanna]

So I'm not quite sure where to go with this. This is an unexpected curveball in the middle of inside Trump's head. But if we go back to inside Trump's head, because you weren't addressing a room full of military, because you haven't run for president, though perhaps you should, because you certainly have one qualification. I think he felt uneasy there.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's a. It's a com. I mean, on. On Trump's. From Trump's side, getting along with the generals has been fraught. And it's fraught for a couple of curious reasons. I mean, being a general has changed. In other words, he would probably. Trump would have been much more comfortable with the generals of the 50s and 60s, the bomb them back into the stone age generation of generals. But. But since then, generals have become kind of high level technocrats.

[Joanna]

Right. Sort of McKinsey Consultants.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. And. And, you know, they. They all have been. They all have gone to graduate school, extensive training. They are. They function like McKinsey consultants. They. They do PowerPoint. I have sat in a room on several occasions with Trump when generals come in to make. Or military people come in to make presentations, and it's all PowerPoint. And Trump doesn't last for 90 seconds.

[Joanna]

Well, and I'm very sympathetic to that because I wouldn't last either. So it turns out in this podcast, you and I are revealing that we have quite a lot in common with Trump. You had flat feet and avoided going to Vietnam. And I don't like PowerPoints. In fact, the minute someone puts a PowerPoint up. I, I just panic.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, we hope that you will not have to send us to war then.

[Joanna]

Well, I'm not planning to. I'm not planning to. So we've got a government shutdown looming tonight. We're recording this on a Tuesday morning. We've already had Trump do his weave and it sounded like he was a little thrown off by the fact that there was very little response from the generals. They weren't cheering, they were just sitting very quietly listening and I think not trying to give anything away.

[Michael Wolff]

Let's set, set the broader scene. They have no idea why they are there. They have been ordered to show up. For what reason? They don't know. So they're sitting there waiting, I suppose they supposed for someone to tell them why they are there, which apparently does not happen.

[Joanna]

Right. Well, they're there because they're told there's going to be a change in culture, that the reason Pete Hegseth got rid of senior black military officials was because he said that you can't change the culture and keep leaders of the culture there. So he fired them and that they can't have beards.

[Michael Wolff]

Bingo.

[Joanna]

Bingo, indeed. So they should have just sent out a memo. All right. It's possible I'm repeating myself because of the painkillers and I want to, I want to assure people it's not dangerous surgery. It was hip surgery. It's mechanical. It's nothing other than that.

[Michael Wolff]

But. And Donald Trump has built a whole career on repeating himself.

[Joanna]

That's true. So maybe I'm doing my. I'm doing a medicated weave. I'm doing a medicated weave. So let us talk about. And I don't want to forget Kai Trump's merch during the Ryder cup, the using the White House as a backdrop. And I certainly don't think we've just spent enough time discussing the Mar a Lago umbrellas on Jackie Kennedy's now paved over Rose Garden.

[Michael Wolff]

But let's go to the shutdown, because the shutdown will happen, will happen at 12 o' clock tonight. And the expectations are that this is going to happen. The Democrats, and let's make no mistake that it's the Democrats who are going to shut down the government, that the Democrats who have scant leverage in the past eight months of the Trump administration, now have the trump card. They can shut it down. And it appears that they will do that, not least of all because they didn't do that in March when they could have Chuck Schumer punted and kind of, I think his explanation would be that if they shut down the government, then the Trump people could do worse things than if they let the government run. But one can hardly imagine that there are even worse things that they could have done. So Chuck Schumer has been hoisted over that decision. So therefore, he definitely has to shut down the government now. And by the way, this is, this is in the Senate. The House has actually, actually approved the funding bill. So it is in the Senate. The Republicans need 60 votes, so they need seven more votes. So they would have to go to the Democrats. The Democrats are not giving them those votes, are withholding those votes, so the government will shut down.

[Joanna]

So what is going on inside Trump's head over the whole prospect of a shutdown? We've had, we had one shut down for, for just over a month in Trump, during Trump, one, which everybody seems to have forgotten about. How is he thinking about this?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, he's, he's thinking that, that he'll be able to blame the Democrats for this, that he will come out ahead. And given that these are the Democrats and that they seem unable, certainly in the past eight months to have mounted a cogent case that the country might unify around, or even that Democrats might unify around, he's probably right. And right now, their rationale is a traditional Democratic rationale. We want to, what we're hold what they are demanding that, that certain funding for Obamacare and Medicare be reinstated, which is worthy, of course, but it is not electrifying.

[Joanna]

So what would be electrifying? Are they playing this right?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, they're playing it terribly. They're playing it as Democrats. They have the opportunity that they have is for all eyes to be on them. And so they need a message. What's the message? Why are they doing this? What is the clarifying thought? And the clarifying thought is not, I'm afraid, health care. No matter how worthy a thought that is, it doesn't cut through, cut through the, all of the frustration that so many people, Democrats and Republicans, feel. So, and my, you know, I'm looking at this, and I actually can't for the life of me understand why they would not pick up the most obvious issue and say, we will close down the government until the Trump White House releases the Epstein files.

[Joanna]

Brilliant.

[Michael Wolff]

You just need a symbol. What is the mission here? And the mission here is we know that there is something wrong in this government, or we know that there is something wrong in government in general. Now you have the opportunity to use your leverage to make every effort to get this Government to do the one thing that people across the political spectrum believe would shed some truth on what's going on.

[Joanna]

It's also the sort of move that you could imagine Governor Newsom making. But he's not part of the Senate and he's not part of this shutdown scenario. He can suggest it, but who within the Senate? Can you even imagine asking that? Maybe Senator Klobuchar.

[Michael Wolff]

But even that. This is what the leadership of the Senate. This is Chuck Schumer. So this is a problem. This is a Democratic problem, that the Democrats are in their nature bureaucrats, people who actually like and thrive in the bureaucracy. They thrive in exactly the thing that, that many, many Americans and certainly much of the coalition that Trump has built are against.

[Joanna]

And yet they thrive in making government work. And it's that quiet work of government that allows people to get educated, drive safely, fly safely, do all the things that actually people want to do.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, and there's the rubber, there's the rub.

[Joanna]

So predictions on what happens this evening.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I think that the government is going, they're going to shut down the government.

[Joanna]

And does that rebound badly on Trump? Let's remember his poll numbers are pretty low at the moment. I mean, the Democrat poll numbers are also low. So no one is coming well out of this scenario. But because he makes everything about him, his poll numbers are low. And this doesn't feel like a good moment for him to have a government shutdown. Plus, he may blame it on the Democrats, but everybody knows the Republicans have got all three branches of government.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. You know, if I were Trump, I would be worried about this. But Trump doesn't worry about much. And Trump looks at this for his, for his own opportunity. Conflict. Remember, Trump's, all his opportunities always involve conflict. So, so right now he will go head to head with the Democrats. And you know, I mean, he will, he's very good at this. The Democrats are very bad at this.

[Joanna]

Right. And Chuck Schumer versus Trump, you know, the light is going to, I mean, the metaphorical, like we'll focus on Trump because as you say, he's better than this. All right, so the other. So when we come back.

[Michael Wolff]

But let's go to this. I mean, the Democrats, I hope the Democrats are watching. It's the Epstein files. It's Epstein. If they would have learned anything. There is only one obvious weakness for Donald Trump, one obvious threat. It's Epstein. So, you know, I mean, why wouldn't they use that?

[Joanna]

Yeah, it's the Epstein file. Stupid. That should be the new cry the adaptation of James Carville's yes, it's the economy. Yep. All right. So by the time we get back together, we may well have a government shutdown. Let's also discuss because since we last saw each other, James Comey has been indicted or charged by, as you predicted, Lindsey Halligan, a new face on the block. Or at least not entirely new. Cause she's been in the background.

[Michael Wolff]

No, not new to me.

[Joanna]

Not new to you, but new to, it turns out, any kind of prosecutorial role.

[Michael Wolff]

And now a word from our sponsors.

[Commercial Announcer]

If you're a smoker or vaper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zynn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zynn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus Zynn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zyn. Check out Zyn.com to find Zinn at a store near you. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Mint is still 15amonth for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's 15amonth. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try.

[Commercial Announcer]

@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of 45 for 3 month plan. 15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Michael Wolff]

See mint mobile.com podcast advertising works. And with ACAS Ads Academy, you'll learn exactly how our free on demand courses are built from more than a decade of podcasting experience, giving you practical tools to create campaigns that drive results. Complete the course and you'll earn a certification that proves your skills in one of the fastest growing channels in media. Get started [e-mail] academy.

[Joanna]

We love our sponsors, but Michael and I are back and we're rattling around Donald Trump's head. So what is it that so gets under Donald Trump's skin about James Comey?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, this is, I mean, this is really, you know, the story that has run from the beginning from 2017 through till now. And it's one of those Trump things that he can't let anything go. And the Comey question, the Comey family has really haunted him from the earliest moments of this administration. Even before the administration. Remember, Comey showed up in his office in Trump Tower before the inauguration to tell him, cleared the room and then told him about the, the, the report of the pee tape.

[Joanna]

So, so this was Steele dossier, which had been put together by, by the Democrats arguing that there was also the Russians had all sorts of personal information on, on Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. So that was, that was his, one of his first interactions with James Comey. Now, one of the other takeaways from that first interaction, which he has continually mentioned over the course now of more than eight years, is that Comey is very tall. So Comey is 6 foot 8. Trump, who has almost a need, a motivating need to be the tallest guy in the room, had enormous problems dealing with this. And so when he would, on the occasions when he would see Comey, there was always an effort to choreograph this, of having Comey seated before Trump came into the room, of any other way to create a situation so that Trump would not be conscious in that immediate moment of Comey's really impressive height.

[Joanna]

So interesting. And also that became clear when he was most recently on his state visit to Windsor castle in the UK because Prince William is 6 foot 3 and towered above Donald Trump. And I think the British tabloid press, knowing this, deliberately took pictures from an angle where Donald Trump would look smaller. And interestingly, Kate Middleton, Princess Kate, Princess of Wales, also towered above Melania. Melania I think, says She6foot, but Kate towered above her. So the two of them were quite diminished.

[Michael Wolff]

I wonder if Donald Trump is losing height, as some of us do in our later years.

[Joanna]

Yeah, well, I think we're all losing height. I was rather alarmed to discover last week I'd lost an inch in height. So I'm sure Donald Trump has.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, James Comey does not seem to be losing height. So anyway, but, but the, but so the Comey thing, but it is even more complicated than then just the height, thank goodness. And we can get back to Epstein in this, as all things Trump do come back to Epstein. So Comey is fired in the spring of 2017 because he has pursued the Russia investigation. And again, going back to the irony here, that it is James Comey who opened up the Hillary email investigation a week before the election, helping to guarantee that Donald Trump would be elected. So Comey gets Trump elected. Then Trump always believed that he didn't want him to be elected and. And so therefore began the Russia investigation, the Russia hoax in Trump terms.

[Joanna]

Well, and I think you wrote in the Fire and Fury that it never dawned on James Comey that Donald Trump would be elected. In fact, he felt confident coming out in those last days before the election when Hillary's emails had been found on Huma Aberdeen's computer, that he felt very confident coming out and saying it because he assumed she was going to win the election and he didn't want to look like he hadn't mentioned it because he was two party pre. To the Democrats. Right?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. It never occurred to anyone that Donald Trump would.

[Joanna]

Well, least of both.

[Michael Wolff]

Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

So, but anyway, so he's fired in, in May 2017, which then immediately leads to the appointment of Robert Mueller, which then haunts Trump through the, through the end of his term. But he also believes that Comey coming out of the FBI has been involved with leaking Epstein material. This goes to 2019. So at that point, the Southern District of New York, which is the Justice Department office in Manhattan, has commenced an investigation, separate investigation of Donald Trump. In July, Jeffrey Epstein is arrested. The senior lawyer in this investigation is Maureen Comey, James Comey's daughter. Within Trump circles, there is the belief that Epstein is in fact arrested to squeeze him for information about Donald Trump. Now, we don't know what information that might be because conveniently, at least for Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein dies shortly thereafter. At any rate, though, Donald Trump continues to hold this belief and this grudge. And shortly, and this is at the beginning of the summer, shortly after Pam Bondi announces that there will be no release of the Epstein files, Maureen Comey is fired from her job in with the Southern District. And then subsequently, not long after, her father is indicted.

[Joanna]

So what did you think of his. By now, I think everybody's seen his post, James Comey's post, saying, I will not live on my knees. Neither should you. I'm not afraid. You shouldn't be either.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, I mean, I think, I think that, well, well, from Trump's point of view, he believes that he's going to prosecute this guy and he's going to put this guy in jail. I think that that's highly unlikely. The poetic turn here would be for James Comey just to declare that he is running for the President of the United States, as did Donald Trump when he was facing indictment.

[Joanna]

Well, it certainly felt very presidential as a statement, the way he came out and said it, didn't he? And also we know that the reason Lindsey Halligan was put in as the U.S. attorney of Maryland and given the order to prosecute by Donald Trump, James Comey, was because her predecessor had said there wasn't enough evidence, there was nothing to prosecute him on, and she has no prosecutorial experience.

[Michael Wolff]

And let's go over that. No one in the Justice Department chain of command. He had to. Trump had to attack the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, over exactly this issue. Because this is a ridiculous prosecution. Everybody knows it's a ridiculous prosecution. It would never happen in any world in which process and ruled. And Donald Trump had to come in, had to break the process here, had to disregard it, had to impose himself, had to, to order the prosecution of James Comey.

[Joanna]

And what's depressing is he's found someone to do it in. Lindsey Halligan, who, but I mean, Lindsay.

[Michael Wolff]

Halligan, I mean, doesn't really exist. She's not really a figure in this. She's just a stick figure. She's just put in there. She's just the face. She's not doing anything. She's not doing any thinking, she's not doing any analysis. She's not really doing anything, even legal work on this. And that was her function, by the way, as a lawyer, as one of Trump's personal lawyers during the campaign. She was not given any legal responsibilities at all. She was just there to be in his entourage to support the. I may not have the. I may not have the best legal team, but I have the hottest, says Donald Trump proudly during amidst his extensive legal woes.

[Joanna]

Well, and she is doing a lot of blow drying. She is doing a lot of blow drying. I will say she has very impressive hair. And it's that Miss Universe hair that Melania has, that Margot Martin has, Ivanka has a version of it, and Hope Hicks had it. Natalie Harp has a slightly thinner version of it. But Lindsey Halligan has great hair.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And she was a Miss Colorado runner up, I believe. And to be a beauty contestant in Donald Trump's world is a, is a.

[Joanna]

High resume point, high resume point. And she's got a law degree, I'm assuming.

[Michael Wolff]

We're assuming.

[Joanna]

We'Re assuming. I know I always like Pam Bondi's law degree, which is from, as you're always pointing out, the fifth law school in Florida. The fifth law school in Florida. So, I mean, I barely feel we've scratched the surface. We've got Hegseth and the warrior culture. He seems to be also using it, I would say, as a get fit scheme. Every time we see him, he's running around, he's doing burpees, he's jumping about. I know lots of people within the Pentagon are fed up that he's got pictures of him and his wife everywhere, which also seems peculiar. We've got the government shutdown looming. We've got the prosecution of James Comey looming. We haven't discussed Kai Trump's merch opportunity. Ryder Cup. She suddenly pops up with Katie, her new T shirt line. Any thoughts? Have you ordered any? We don't know where it's made yet.

[Michael Wolff]

I. I'm gonna leave that one to you.

[Joanna]

Okay, I am going to order. I'm going to order one of Kai's shirts.

[Michael Wolff]

And are you gonna wear it?

[Joanna]

I'm going to wear it on the podcast if it ever comes because I want people to know where it's made. Is it made in China? Is it made in India? I hope it's made in America.

[Michael Wolff]

Hold that thought, Joanna. And now a word from our sponsors.

[Commercial Announcer]

If you're a smoker or vaper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zyn nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zynn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus Zynn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one. Zen. Check out zen.com find to find Zin at a store near you. Warning. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Mint is still 15amonth for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's 15amonth. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it.

[Michael Wolff]

Are you.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront.

[Commercial Announcer]

Payment of $45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com hello listeners.

[Michael Wolff]

Meet Lisa.

[Commercial Announcer]

Hey there.

[Michael Wolff]

Lisa runs an online boutique specializing in sustainable fashion.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

With Acast, she found a whole new.

[Michael Wolff]

Way to reach eco conscious shoppers.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yep, I recorded a quick ad targeted listeners interested in fashion and sustainable sustainability using acast's audience attributes targeting feature and set my budget. Before I knew it, people all over were hearing about my shop.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Now that's a smart way to grow your business.

[Michael Wolff]

Hey Lisa, what's trending right now?

[Commercial Announcer]

Shopping sustainably. And my sales, of course.

[Michael Wolff]

Start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with Acast. Visit go.acast.com advertise to get started.

[Joanna]

And we are back. Because I've been holding that thought, but I want to get back into it. I think a final point before we wrap today and my painkillers wear out is the Trump Library.

[Michael Wolff]

Ah, the Trump Library.

[Joanna]

The Trump library, which, because he collected some more money from YouTube this week.

[Michael Wolff]

So yeah, so the. There was a piece in the Wall Street Journal, I believe, which, which did the roundup. So Trump has, has collected in total $80 million from suing media organizations.

[Joanna]

Okay. And this is 10 months in, so there's probably a lot more to come. And the Most recent was YouTube, which I think paid him around 25 million for having taken him off the platform after January 6th.

[Michael Wolff]

And so, and I think is that the YouTube settlement goes. Some of it goes to the library. One of the settlements.

[Joanna]

Well, I think the ABC one definitely went to the library. And the library seems to be a catch all for payments coming in.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And these are effectively payments to him. He controls all of this. All of this, this money. So the library is in. Is a, Is just an adjunct to, to Trump lifestyle and business.

[Joanna]

And then there was a piece in the New York Times saying that it looked like Governor DeSantis, to complete his ritual humiliation by Donald Trump, is about to give Donald Trump a very valuable building that has been segued out of the University of Miami, I think, or the University of Miami Dade, to give to Trump free for his library.

[Michael Wolff]

So I have a library story, a Trump library story. So in the, in the spring of 2021, I went down to Mar A Lago to have dinner with, with, with Trump and with Melania. How this came to pass is, Is a story for another. Another occ.

[Joanna]

Well, and we should remember you'd already written three critical books about him at this point.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, actually, I was then on the verge of writing the third.

[Joanna]

Okay, so you'd written two, but you'd written Fire and Fury and the Siege. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

But he had been a prize that I was writing the third and then. And that's where I got my invitation. So at any rate, I went down and had a long beat before our dinner. We sat in the Mar A Lago lobby, which is where he generally conducted much of his business and with people passing by and, you know, country club goers. And he kind of jumps up and, and, and he's also, as he talks to you, he's kind of the host, you know, hope you have a good day, hope you have a good dinner. Or he sees a mother and daughter and says, and says, and says this happened Certainly two times as I sat there with, with, with him, he said, so your sisters, right? At any rate, at any rate. So we're, we're talking and then, and he's telling me the election is stolen and all, all of that. And then I ask him about the, you know, remember he's out of office. I asked him about his plans for a presidential library. And he looks at me. I mean, he pauses, which he doesn't often do. He looked at me with kind of horror because clearly the suggestion of a presidential library is that you are out of office and you will stay out of office, which is in part good news. So the fact that he's talking about a presidential library now, I think is a fair indication that he's looking forward to being out of office and not having a third term.

[Joanna]

So silver lining, we will cling to that straw of hope.

[Michael Wolff]

But so anyway, he's looking at me like I've said some terrible thing about a presidential library. And I get nervous and I fumble. And I said, you know, a presidential library doesn't have to have, have books. It can be. And this comes to me literally at that moment. I said, it can be like a theme park, a Trump theme park. And he clearly brightened that idea. And I actually think it's a perfect idea. So we may see in the Trump Presidential library competition with the other theme parks in Florida.

[Joanna]

Well, and also it would give him a chance to bring back all the old favorites that didn't linger around. Trump water, Trump steaks. You could get a certificate from Trump University. You could do a quick Trump mini golf where you cheat or you don't cheat, depending on the cards you get, perhaps. What a good idea. And actually, I will say, having been to the Reagan Library, the Reagan Library is a bit of a theme park. Cause it's got the Air Force One there, which is amazing. And the whole thing obviously is their goal is to tell it from that president's point of view. There's no such thing in the uk. I mean, prime ministers go off and write books and actually British prime ministers for the most part read books, which I'm not sure Donald Trump has ever wanted to do or is capable of doing.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, yeah, no, no, I think we will look forward to a presidential theme park which will have no books. And it will be a money making opportunity for the Trump brand.

[Joanna]

Of course it will. And of course, you know, interestingly, the Obama library has hit all sorts of snags that still hasn't. The price tag has swollen, it's still not done the construction company is, I think, suing part of the, you know, the foundation. It's all a mess. So that. So building these things is not simple. But as we know, oddly, the one thing Donald Trump is able to do is. Is construction.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And we should do the Rose Garden.

[Joanna]

Well, we should do the Rose Garden. I mean, I'm fascinated that he's literally put in the same umbrellas that he has in Mar A Lago on Jackie Kennedy's rose lawn, which he's paved over. And it now the ballroom is going to dominate the White House. It's going to be bigger than the White House itself, which is a very clever way of. Of leaving his physical presence behind.

[Michael Wolff]

And you begin to think about this because you do think Donald Trump will leave the White House at some point and the damage that he has done will be undone by a more reasonable minds. But that's probably not true. And the ballroom will be proof of that. It will stand for generations.

[Joanna]

Yeah. Unless, of course, like the occasional Trump property, it gets mold or it starts leaking, or it doesn't turn out to be as well built as it might look from the outside.

[Michael Wolff]

Richard Nixon paved the pool.

[Joanna]

Well, that's probably because he didn't want to parade around in a Speedo.

[Michael Wolff]

Right, Exactly. And there has been no pool since.

[Joanna]

Interesting that Donald Trump has never had a beard. Do you think he could grow a beard? He's just, he's not a man you could imagine with a beard.

[Michael Wolff]

He's from an age when there weren't beards. Men from the, from, you know, 50s and through the first half of the 60s certainly didn't have. That was a no beard generation.

[Joanna]

I'm going to go on to AI and see what he would look like. And also he's got a lot going on up here. So he's of the age of the comb over, right?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, the. He's the ultimate comb over.

[Joanna]

All right. So, Michael, next time I see you, we may be in the middle. We may be at the beginning of a government shutdown. So I hope that doesn't impact the Jitney schedule.

[Michael Wolff]

We're private.

[Joanna]

Okay, Michael, I think that's a lot for today. That's a lot for today. It may be the Tramadell talking. I've got no sense of whether or not I made any sense whatsoever, but then our president doesn't either, so we have that in common.

[Michael Wolff]

I will see you on Thursday.

[Joanna]

All right, Michael, do you want to read us out? Do you want to thank people for joining us and remind them they can subscribe to the Daily Beast or become a member of the Daily beast community on YouTube.

[Michael Wolff]

And it's a thank you to Devin, who does something important here, and Anna, who also does something important, and Jesse, who I've actually never met.

[Joanna]

Well, he's sitting right outside the studio so you can meet him on the way out. And a special shout out to our Bee Beast tier of members, Karen White, Heidi Riley and Connie Rutherford.

[Commercial Announcer]

If you're a smoker or vaper ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zyn Nicotine Pouches, you'll discover many good reasons. Zynn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus Zynn offers a robust rewards program. There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zyn. Check out zyn.com find to find Zyn at a store near you. This product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. As a teacher, I'm used to doing more with less, but now with Prodigy, my class finally gets a lot more. I can be in more places at once with more personalized instruction for each student. And Prodigy's game based learning gives kids more confidence in math while making it more fun and engaging. But if you need one more thing to sweeten the deal, Prodigy is totally free for teachers. Now that's more to the power of more. Learn [e-mail].

[Michael Wolff]

Acast powers the world's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Danny Pellegrino]

The Real Housewives is a guilty pleasure for most, but if you're looking to not feel guilty about that pleasure, tune in to Everything Iconic with me, Danny Pellegrino, where I break down all the messy moments and behind the scenes antics of Bravo's popular franchise. And on Everything Iconic, I also interview celebrity guests like Kelly Ripa, Keke Palmer, Drew Barrymore, Cameron Diaz and more about their guilty pleasures, their past work, and so much more. So if you're pop culture obsessed and find yourself watching way too much reality TV like me, Tune in to Everything Iconic with Danny Pellegrino Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Michael Wolff]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.