Real Reason Trump Is Never Going to Recover: Wolff

Summary

Podcast Summary: Inside Trump’s Head

Episode: Real Reason Trump Is Never Going to Recover: Wolff

Hosts: Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles
Date: April 8, 2026

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Overview – Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deep into what the hosts describe as a pivotal, possibly terminal moment for Donald Trump’s presidency. Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles, bringing their trademark blend of candor and wit, dissect Trump’s reaction to the catastrophic escalation in the Middle East, specifically the ongoing conflict with Iran and its global repercussions. With references to Trump’s psychological state, his relationships with those around him, and the wider MAGA movement, the conversation paints a portrait of a cornered president acting with increasing desperation—and explores the potential global fallout.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s “Forever War” and the Escalation with Iran

• Trump, once a “no forever wars” president, is now deeply mired in a protracted, crisis-laden war with Iran.
• Hosts assert this is a self-created trap:

  "He’s gotten himself into a situation that he can’t get out of." (Emma Brockes, 00:14, 02:43)

• The Strait of Hormuz crisis and Iran’s newfound leverage is discussed as a game-changer for global oil and power:

  "The balance of power... has shifted because [Iran has] figured out all you have to do is... threaten." (Emma Brockes, 04:05)

• The spectacle of American military might is contrasted with its ineffectiveness in ending the crisis:

  "It’s the most extraordinary story yet again of David and Goliath... unfathomable bombing capacity... but it’s not always what wins in the end." (Michael Wolff, 05:06)

2. The Psychology of Trump When Cornered

• Repeated references to Trump’s inability to process setbacks, leading to more extreme threats and unpredictable behavior:

  "When he doesn’t know what to do, the threats get greater, the language gets more... violent and threatening." (Emma Brockes, 02:43)

• Comparison to Stalin’s reign—total erasure of agency among those around Trump:

  "Think of Donald Trump as you would think of the world around Stalin. He could kill you any minute." (Emma Brockes, 11:47)

• Trump’s behavior depicted as erratic, embarrassing, and sometimes incoherent:

  "What comes out of his mouth is a reflection of what’s going on in his head, obviously, and it’s bonkers." (Michael Wolff, 12:10)
  "He doesn’t really even know what he’s thinking from moment to moment." (Emma Brockes, 16:58)

3. Collateral Damage: MAGA Rising Stars in the Firing Line

• Trump is actively shifting blame for the war to rising MAGA figures J.D. Vance and Pete Hegseth, possibly to destroy their future prospects:

  "He’s managed to put a grappling hook around JD Vance, who was always trying to get away from the war." (Michael Wolff, 07:45)

• J.D. Vance’s personal ambitions (e.g., a 2028 run) are jeopardized by being tied to the unpopular war.
• Marco Rubio characterized as an anxious bystander, suffering “soul death.”

4. The MAGA Movement and Its Global Echoes

• Discussion of Viktor Orbán in Hungary as a “bellwether” for MAGA’s international standing—and his likely defeat as a bad omen for Trumpism.

  "If Orban goes down, that’s a red flag for them." (Emma Brockes, 29:35)

5. The Bannon-Trump Dynamic: Forgiveness at a Price

• Trump’s forgiveness of Steve Bannon’s contempt conviction is examined, with speculation that it came at the price of Bannon moderating his anti-war rhetoric:

  "It wasn’t free... I suspect that it was that Steve made a promise to go easy on the war." (Emma Brockes, 36:23)

• The complex, often hostile relationship between Trump and Bannon is unpacked, with Bannon both as kingmaker and persistent thorn.

6. The Personal Toll and the “Chokehold” of Trump

• Hosts analogize Trump’s circle to Stalin’s—"no one is smarter than Trump or they won’t last.”
• The emotional and psychological toll on those working for or near Trump is discussed, with staff described as always holding their breath.

7. Broader Repercussions

• The conflict greatly strengthens China and Russia, especially due to China’s preparedness for oil volatility:

  "China... has developed a whole alternative energy industry... their investment in this industry will make them the leaders." (Emma Brockes, 31:32)

• US global standing and unity are both eroded by the clownishness and chaos projected from the White House.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “beginning of the end”:

  "This is, very clearly, I think indisputably, the beginning of the end. He’s not going to recover from this."
  (Emma Brockes, 19:50)

• Trump’s matchless narcissism:

  “There cannot be another Republican president because that would supersede Donald Trump, who is going to leave office and go back to Mar-a-Lago as the once and future president.”
  (Emma Brockes, 09:02)

• Stalin comparison:

  “You do not want to be the first person who stops clapping Stalin. That’s the sign.”
  (Michael Wolff, 12:03)

• J.D. Vance's Hungary blunder:

  “A Reuters reporter has to tell him to check his messages... he didn’t seem to know that the US had launched a wave of strikes.”
  (Michael Wolff, 24:44)

• On Melania:

  “Melania is just standing there, and she’s become even more silent. Hello. I say nothing. I’m totally silent.”
  (Emma Brockes, 18:04)

• On the chaos at the White House Easter egg event:

  “He was signing eggs and said, you know, if this was Joe Biden, he wouldn’t be using a pen. He’d be using the auto pen. And there’s a child looking at him, and the child just goes, what?”
  (Michael Wolff, 17:25)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Trump “cornered” & forever war:
  00:14 – 04:05
• The David vs. Goliath dynamic, Strait of Hormuz:
  05:06 – 06:29
• Trump deflecting blame to Vance and Hegseth:
  06:29 – 09:31
• Discussion of MAGA future and Rubio:
  09:31 – 10:23
• Stalin paranoia, lack of agency in Trump circle:
  11:47 – 12:03
• Truth Social outbursts, Easter and the Pope:
  12:20 – 14:27
• Split-screen metaphor and Trump’s contradictory messaging:
  14:27 – 15:54
• Degradation of the American state’s IQ under Trump:
  06:08 – 06:29
• J.D. Vance’s Hungary incident & MAGA’s international fate:
  23:30 – 30:12
• China’s strategic benefit from US chaos:
  31:25 – 32:44
• Steve Bannon’s reprieve & his relationship with Trump:
  32:45 – 38:20
• Personal anecdotes: Epstein, Weinstein, and New York mag:
  39:09 – 47:30
• Media nostalgia and the disappearance of magazines:
  48:58 – 49:44
• Final remarks on Trump’s attention-command & legal peril:
  50:08 – 50:57

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Tone & Style

The hosts maintain a tone that is sharply irreverent yet deeply informed. There is humor, dark wit, and a clear sense of the surreal nature of Trump’s presidency. The episode is fast-paced, anecdotal, and loaded with behind-the-scenes detail—often delivered with incredulity or weary resignation at the state of American politics.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This discussion offers a sweeping, insider account of why Trump’s current predicament—locked in a disastrous war he cannot win or end, with the MAGA movement infighting and global alliances crumbling—may finally spell the end of an era. The personal stories, sharp analysis, and on-the-ground political gossip make it essential listening for understanding not just Trump’s psyche, but the state of America and its politics in 2026.

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If you want to follow Michael Wolff’s serialized account of his Epstein reporting, check out his Substack, as referenced in the latter part of the episode. For more, tune in to the next “Inside Trump’s Head” for continued analysis as history unfolds.

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

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[Emma Brockes]

And he's rightly cornered. He doesn't know what to do because no one knows what to do. He's gotten himself into a situation that he can't get out of. The. The no Forever wars president is right now trapped very clearly in a forever war on a tipping point scale. This is very much, very clearly, I think, indisputably, the beginning of the end.

[Michael Wolff]

Michael.

[Emma Brockes]

Joanna.

[Michael Wolff]

What's happening, man? What's happening? We're recording this on Tuesday morning. The president has thrown out lots of ultimatums.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, it's possible that the world is ending.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I would just like to say that it is.

[Emma Brockes]

I mean, essentially Donald Trump is right now, as we speak, threatening to end the world. I mean, civilization, I think, in his words, civilization as at least the Iranian people know it. So we are at a moment, a critical moment, in which he is essentially saying, I'm going to go further in warfare than we have gone since the Second World War. I mean, I don't think any American president, I'm not sure any leader, Putin, possibly with the exception of Putin, has ever been this explicit in his intention to. To create a level of destruction that the world has not seen in a very, very long time. So this is like, let's not hold back here now. This is Donald Trump. So we have no idea what's going to happen. And he can scamper away any second, but right now, at this juncture, it sort of could be darkness at noon.

[Michael Wolff]

So we're recording this on Tuesday morning. We have no idea what's going to happen. But what's going on where we go three times a week inside that big head of his with its moldy hay hair and its orange complexion and its increasingly hunched neck.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, he's cornered, obviously. I mean, he doesn't know what to do. When he doesn't know what to do, the threats get greater, the language gets more explicitly. Well, stupid, of course, but violent. Explicitly violent and threatening. And he's. I mean, and he's rightly cornered. He doesn't know what to do because no one knows what to do. He's gotten himself into a situation that he can't get out of. So the no forever wars president is right now trapped very clearly in a forever war.

[Michael Wolff]

And the sort of foolish bragging which would work well in a television show, in a reality show, and we're always Talking about how this is the spinoff and how he looks at everything through the lens of a reality show. This is reality. And there's been so much knock on effect from the bombing campaign against Iran. And his sort of ridiculous comments like five presidents didn't have the balls to do this. I am the only person that can do this. And in fact, what he's brought us is a crisis around the Strait of Hormuz that no one had heard of really, before he started this.

[Emma Brockes]

No, no. And he's off. The balance of power there has been altered, not in our favor. So before it was just a free passage waterway. Now essentially, the Iranians have taken over the Strait of Hor. I mean, before the war, they had no claim on the Strait of Hormuz. Now they have a claim and they have actually a kind of stranglehold. I mean, nobody knows what to do. The balance of power, literally the balance of power has shifted because they've figured out that all you have to do is. Well, actually all you have to do is threaten. And that inhibits insurers and boat owners, everybody who might try to pass through the Strait of Hormuz. So therefore it's an embargo on 20% of the world's oil without really doing very much.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. Well, and it's the most extraordinary story yet again of David and Goliath that America strides along as Goliath Pete Hegseth shouts that we've got the biggest military in the world. We've got unfathomable bombing capacity, which is true. But it's not always what wins in the end, as we know from the last few wars. And the thing that really irritates me is that this makes you root against Donald Trump. So you're rooting against America, which nobody, you know, no American actually wants to do. But it's hard to feel anything but unenthusiastic about this foolishness.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah. And it also goes to the point that not only do you have to be the most powerful nation on earth, but you do have to be a little bit intelligent. And Donald Trump and his collection of stupids, and these are stupid, stupid, stupid people. I mean, more stupid because they're wedded to Donald Trump's stupidity.

[Michael Wolff]

Right.

[Emma Brockes]

I mean, you cannot be, I mean, structurally, you cannot be around Donald Trump and be smarter than he is, that then you're going toyou won't be around him. So the entire intelligence, the entire IQ of the American government has been lowered by Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

And what's interesting is that he knows he's cornered despite his ludicrous press conference, which we can go into in a minute. But he's already started laying the blame for HEGSETH and for J.D. vance. And there was a wonderful moment where J.D. vance gets caught out. Trump throws it to him and says, how's it going, J.D. vance? How's the negotiations going? And J.D. vance isn't expecting to have the ball thrown at him. So he's kind of, you know, obfuscating because he really doesn't know. And it's very clear that Trump is saying this is on JD and we know that JD didn't want to go to war. He's got a book coming out called How He Found His Faith Again. I'm sure he did find his faith again after working for Donald Trump. So J.D. vance is thinking, when's my book tour starting? How can I make some more money out of this whole thing? He doesn't want to be lumbered with the war.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, and more importantly, J.D. vance, who will run for president in 2028, at least run for the Republican nomination, has to be is set up to be the MAGA candidate, but the MAGA candidate has to be a no forever wars candidate. And suddenly Donald Trump has linked J.D. vance to a forever war.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, it's pretty smart from Trump's point of view. I mean, I'm definitely not rooting for J.D. vance. So it's pretty smart that he's managed to put a grappling hook around JD Vance, who was always get away from the war and then another one ramped

[Emma Brockes]

Henson, whoever the nominee is going to be, he is going to undermine, of course, so it doesn't matter. And why not start now?

[Michael Wolff]

Right? But he's obviously figured out that both Hegseth and JD Vance are sort of young enough to be to possibly present as a kind of new future for America. And he's not having any of it. And they're both going to get lumbered with the blame for this war, which is not going well. And Marco Rubio, actually, because he sort of somehow managed to really associate himself with a 24 hours of glory in Venezuela at the moment, seems a little less slimed fair. I mean, Rubio just did too.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah. I mean, Rubio is just an old neocon, right? So I mean, he's gonna get, as the neocons always do, gonna get saddled with this war and he's gonna go down. These wars don't work.

[Michael Wolff]

So he's going down too.

[Emma Brockes]

Oh, yeah. Oh. I mean, the principle is that Trump will bring anybody down There cannot be another Republican president because that would supersede Donald Trump, who is going to leave office and go back to Mar A Lago as the once and future president. He will be Donald Trump. Any new Republican president compromises Donald Trump's identity, so that won't happen.

[Michael Wolff]

At least Rubio has the decency to look anxious about this whole thing. Every time you see a picture of him, you look like his soul's left his body.

[Emma Brockes]

He's a really sweaty guy.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And he looks older. His face is crumbling in on itself, and he looks utterly panicked, whereas JD Vance just looks swollen.

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[Emma Brockes]

All of these people are the people around Donald Trump. So everything that they think and everything that they feel and every action they take is about reaction to Donald Trump. What will Donald Trump think? How will Donald Trump. Trump's hit back at them if they don't do it right? What does Donald Trump expect of them? I mean, this is.

[Michael Wolff]

No, it's embarrassing. And the way they said yesterday in the press conference. And this is all possible because of the great courage of Donald Trump, because of the majesty of Donald Trump. Ridiculous.

[Emma Brockes]

Nobody has agency here. Everybody's agency has literally been removed by Donald Trump. I mean, this is just think of Donald Trump as you would think of the world around Stalin. He could kill you any minute.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And you do not want to be just a. You don't want to be the first person who stops clapping Stalin. Right. That's the sign.

[Emma Brockes]

Exactly.

[Michael Wolff]

What comes out of his mouth is a reflection of what's going on in his head, obviously, and it's bonkers. And it's obvious he's cornered and panicked.

[Emma Brockes]

I mean, I was the Truth social on Easter morning, which Tucker Carlson has now flagged in a particularly Tucker like way, and obviously for Tucker's own benefit is like, that post was the fuck.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it was. What was it? Open the fucking Straits, you crazy bastard.

[Emma Brockes]

Exactly. And so Tucker Carlson has said. I mean, I think his main issue is saying fuck on Christmas, Easter darling, on Easter morning. And so we can burnish Tucker's Christian credentials. But it also goes to the fact that this is nuts. What is the man saying? What is the point here? And also from a strategic level, he is raising the expectations of what he will do of obliteration and Armageddon and the end of the world, which he is not going to do. So he is going to raise the expectations, and then he's going to have to run away from them again.

[Michael Wolff]

Right, okay.

[Emma Brockes]

So how can this be good for Donald Trump?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, well, and he sent the truth social out on Easter morning, probably having woken up to the realization he's been attacked by the Pope. So the Pope, you know, addresses his crowd. It's his first Easter, first American Pope, that those who have power should use it peacefully, which is obviously not what Trump is doing. And then, and then there was the strange conversation when he was asked about, you know, is God on your side during the Monday press conference. And he was like, God is great, God is good. And he. And I mean, he and Hegseth have sort of dragged God into this for obvious reasons, for political gain, but it just feels ridiculous.

[Emma Brockes]

No, it's. I mean, that's the other thing, the believability gap here, or in my day, during the war in Vietnam, what we used to call the credibility gap. Right, is. I mean, I think that. I think we are seeing that again, what he says versus what the reality is. And this goes back to always that metaphor that I come back to, the split screen, because Trump is obviously a television performer, so you might as well stick with the. With the central metaphor that we always come back to. And in this split screen, he has, you know, the. It is Armageddon and obliteration and the full force of the United States military, the greatest force that the world has ever known.

[Michael Wolff]

No one's ever seen anything like it. No one's seen anything like it, which

[Emma Brockes]

is true, except for. Then in the other screen, you have the Iranians, whose military has clearly been degraded, if not devastated, nevertheless, managing to hold the world hostage it is again, in this Trump thing, these absolute contradictory realities, which he does not know how to bridge.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, and the other thing is, when he goes into his speeches, you can see him then trying to sort of wander off. So he attacks Biden as a retard. And he says, you know, he goes off. There's some sort of moment there where he pulls in North Korea and he says, aren't you pleased about the way I've got a great relationship with North Korea? And actually, Kim Jong Il or UN or whichever one it is, said that Biden was a retard. So he says that twice. Then he says, he says that he inherited. He said this twice in the last two or three days. He inherited a crippled and dead country, which he's now made into the hottest country. I mean, again, falling back on his language that he used for his team of lawyers that you all used to say.

[Emma Brockes]

I was gonna say, yes.

[Michael Wolff]

He used to say to you, I may not have the best lawyers, but I've got the hottest lawyers. And now he may not have the best country, but he's got the hottest country. Many people saying it's the hottest country.

[Emma Brockes]

No, I mean, it's just so embarrassing.

[Michael Wolff]

It's so embarrassing.

[Emma Brockes]

But it's beyond embarrassing. I mean, it is. And it goes to. It reflects what is going on in his head, which is all kinds of weird, all kinds of dangerous, all kinds of incoherence. So he doesn't know. He doesn't know not only what he's doing, but he doesn't really even know what he's thinking from moment to moment.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, at the Easter egg hunt or the Easter egg roll at the White House on Monday, he was signing things for children. I think he was signing eggs. And he said, you know, if this was Joe Biden, he wouldn't be using a pen. He'd be using the auto pen. And there's a child looking at him, and the child just goes, what? And the child has no idea. And you're conscious that in Trump's head, he's just like, Biden. Biden.

[Emma Brockes]

No, actually, in the presence of children, he always says something strange, right?

[Michael Wolff]

Super aggressive, I think.

[Emma Brockes]

Remember when he told some child there was no Santa Claus?

[Michael Wolff]

That's right. That's right. And Melania is just standing there, and she's become even more silent. Hello. I say nothing. I'm totally silent. I mean, she just. She was standing there grinning as he was talking everybody about inheriting a crippled and dead country.

[Emma Brockes]

I mean, it's this other thing. Cause, I mean, I'VE seen this. I've literally witnessed this countless times. Trump there, blah, blah, blah. And everyone around him kind of holding their breath. What is he gonna say now? It's not as if the people around Trump think that this is. That this is normal and logical and business as usual. They think this is crazy. And they also kind of think, you know, when is the world going to call them? I mean, how do they. I mean, it's a sense almost of, are we going to get away with this again?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, and perhaps, please don't let us get away with this again. I mean, I'm, I'm really concerned that actually Susie Wiles getting treatment for her cancer is actually part of this whole thing. What are you hearing in terms of.

[Emma Brockes]

I mean, this is that sort of, sort of.

[Michael Wolff]

Is that giving her too much power?

[Emma Brockes]

Well, no, but it assumes it's anything. Something different has happened. I mean, this is what has been. This is the story and has been the story every day of certainly the second administration, but also the first administration.

[Michael Wolff]

Right, but you just started this conversation by saying, you know, he may bomb a civilization out of existence tonight. It has ramped up. Is worse.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, it is in this situation, because I think this situation is the worst situation he has gotten himself into. So this is. And I think we can go broader on a tipping point scale. This is very much, very clearly, I think, indisputably, the beginning of the end. He's not going to recover from this.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. He can't recover from this.

[Emma Brockes]

And so he is. This is like, oh, my God, you know, and the danger is to take everyone with him. I mean, he does. I mean, he's already. He's going to take everyone around him with him. But what does it do if were he to actually do what he's threatening to do to Iran? I'm just trying to think. I can't almost imagine the effect of. The effect of this because, A, I don't think this is going to happen, and I may absolutely be proved wrong. It is Donald Trump. You don't know. He is a crazy man. So does restraint, you know, Taco kick in some point today? I don't know. I expect that it will, but if it doesn't, I don't know.

[Michael Wolff]

Is he listening to Tucker on something like this?

[Emma Brockes]

How many times have we gone over this? He doesn't listen to anyone.

[Michael Wolff]

I know, but he reads the room. The thing that he does do is read the room. And in the room, there are a lot of people saying this isn't a good idea, especially his I mean, even Marjorie Traitor Greene, who's turned out to be a truth teller about this and sent out a.

[Emma Brockes]

No, no.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, saying he's lost his mind and you're all incomplicit and everybody in the cabinet and I wish I'd been in the Cabinet, but I wasn't. So now I can say this stuff is complicit in this craziness.

[Emma Brockes]

This is all true, except for the fact that he's in this. He still has to deal with this circumstance and he doesn't know how to deal with it. I mean, he literally doesn't know how. I mean, what do you do? I mean, in normal Trump business as usual, he would declare victory, but we're over that line. That's not believable anymore. Him declaring victory, it would immediately be clear that we had lost and the Iranians had won. And the other side of that is that he can become more aggressive, but more aggression only seems to give the Iranians more backbone, more determination to use the leverage they have against us and actually the world.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And it's actually a very biblical story. I mean, the irony of Trump and Hegseth clothing themselves in the Bible is that this feels a very biblical story in that it's a giant power that's trying to crush a little power, or a smaller power, I should say. And the smaller power manages to sort of intelligence its way through it.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, actually, the greater irony is that it has turned Iran, a regional, heretofore regional power, into a super power, into a bigger power.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, yeah. So J.D. vance has been dispatched to Hungary as we speak, where he seemed to be out of touch with what's actually been going on. And of course, a little ironic, too, that he's been dispatched to Hungary to support Orban, who doesn't look like he's going to win the election on Sunday.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, let's talk about that, because I think that's also a theme, a key indicator at this moment in time. But tell this other, this story, because this is priceless.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I'm reading it from our Swamp column, which we drop every Tuesday, and it's written by our excellent White House chief correspondent David Gardner. JD Vlance flew overnight to Hungary to suck up to the country's right wing leader and Trump buddy, Victor Orban. But he clearly didn't check his messages before going on stage for a press conference in Budapest on Tuesday morning, moments after mentioning he had a note from Steve Witkoff that he hadn't had the chance to read. And then, of course, because he's J.D. vance. And he can't resist doing this. He goes, wouldn't you like to know what's in it?

[Emma Brockes]

The guy is so unpleasant.

[Michael Wolff]

So unpleasant. A Reuters reporter has to tell him to check his messages. And he should have read it because he didn't seem to know that the US had launched a wave of strikes against Kharg Island. So dozens of military targets across the island were hit. And JD Vance didn't appear to know any of it. So he said, wouldn't you like to know what's in my text? Well, we know what's in your text. Carg island is being bombed. So he's there with his poor little wife. And we need to talk about an excellent piece that we ran by Nels Cavell, who pointed out that ushavants has started a podcast where she reads books to children. And actually, if you go down the piles of books that she has in

[Emma Brockes]

the books and then. Let me, wait a minute, let me. So this is a podcast for children.

[Michael Wolff]

It's a podcast for children.

[Emma Brockes]

Children listen to podcasts now, who knows?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, sadly not

[Emma Brockes]

a kind of heretofore the premise that children should not be on devices.

[Michael Wolff]

Very good point. Very good point. But were they to be on devices? Were they to be. They could listen to Usha's podcast, but it's actually a very subversive podcast. And of course she opens with Peter Rabbit, Tale of Peter Rabbit by Beatrix Potter, female author who got rejected by all the traditional male publishing houses, publishes the books herself, makes tons of money and becomes an environmentalist. And of course, little Peter Rabbit is a bit like an immigrant who runs into the garden. Big agriculture, Mr. McGregor, the farmer drives him out, steals his jacket, and then the next book is of a little. I think it's some sort of creature, a rabbit who is driven around by all the presidents going back sometime to Reagan and Biden, but not Donald Trump. Donald Trump is the only president missing. So, White House, I think we called the White House for comment because this is actually Usha being rather subversive and nobody's noticed apart from us.

[Emma Brockes]

You're always calling the White House for comment. Have you ever gotten a comment that is anything other than an insult or dismissal?

[Michael Wolff]

No, but we still call them anyway.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah, well, I mean, old fashioned, this kind of journalistic conceit.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And because we know, as it happens, as Caroline Levitt told a panel last week, that we're in her head that she likes to hang out with her kids because then who cares what the daily Beasts think?

[Emma Brockes]

Go back to Vance and in Hungary, because, I mean, I think that this is really interesting. So Viktor Orban has been taken up, and this was true in the first administration too, by the MAGA people. So he was the indicator that the MAGA movement was spreading around the world. He was taken up first by Steve Bannon and then he was taken up by Tucker Carlson. And of course, Orban has always been very close to Putin and of course, Donald Trump has always had a mysterious relationship with Vladimir Putin. So this was the MAGA part of the MAGA world, the MAGA movement spreading, spreading around the world. So right now, Orban is in trouble. Orban will probably lose. So this could not come at a more and a more dicey time for Trump and the MAGA movement or a more, depending upon how you look at more propitious time. This is again, the, I think we are seeing the writing of an end of this finally. And I'm going to now from here on in insist that this is what

[Michael Wolff]

we're, this is the beginning of the end of Trumpism.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

And MAGA. And also when J.D. vance landed, a slew of emails came out from, well, between Putin and Orban with Orban saying, you know, I want to help you in Ukraine. Tell me how I can do that. Suck, suck, suck. And then it became clear that the Hungarian foreign minister had been taking information from EU meetings and giving it straight to Sergei Lavrov in Russia, the Russian foreign minister for, you know, to help the Russians in the war with Ukraine. So embarrassing for J.D. vance. And it looks like Orban's going to lose. They sent him there, I think deliberately. I mean, it feels like he's playing with him to that.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think that they're kind of desperate. I mean, this is other. They are seeing the writing on the wall here. And it's interesting that they're looking at Orban like you might look at a MAGA person in some state who needed support. I mean, this is, if Orban goes down, that's a red flag for them. I mean, I don't know what they do. I don't know if they can ignore that. But it is one of those other things on the march to the midterms and on the march to the end of Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

But it's significant that Donald Trump hasn't gone there for an unexpected last minute Visit. He sent J.D. vance.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah, I mean, I think that would beI meanwhere Donald Trump to show up in Orban to lose. Even Donald Trump is going to have enough restraint not to set himself up like that.

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[Michael Wolff]

Right. But he's managed to set up his number two is all I'm saying.

[Emma Brockes]

Yes, and of course, he has set himself up in this war, which, again, he just can't get out of. He's stuck. It is going to bring him down.

[Michael Wolff]

And, and let's just talk about how this helps China and how it helps Russia.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, it clearly helps China in almost every way. Not least of all, it isi mean China has, over the last number of years, which the US has not done, in which, or at least the US Attempts have been repeatedly frustrated by Donald Trump, developed a whole alternative energy industry. So the impact of this loss of oil on China is so much less than all other places in the world. It makes China. I mean, their industry has been proved out. Their industry now will be the, Their, their investment in this industry will be thewill make them the leaders, has made them the leaders in alternativein the development of alternative energy around the world. They arethey will reap the benefits of

[Michael Wolff]

this while Donald Trump is ripping out windmills and stopping every kind of renewable energy he can do here.

[Emma Brockes]

Extraordinary.

[Michael Wolff]

So let's talk about Steve Bannon.

[Emma Brockes]

Okay, so Bannon. So Bannon is. The Supreme Court has taken steps which will allow Steve Bannon's conviction on contempt charges to be vacated. Now, this is because the White House and the Justice Department has basically said, we don't want to pursue this anymore. We think this is. This is. We think that this is wrong. We wouldn't have pursued it then. And we want this to go away.

[Michael Wolff]

And let's just remind people he spent, what, four months in jail for this?

[Emma Brockes]

I think three months. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

In Connecticut.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah. I mean, and this was a contempt. He refused to appear before Congress and this was with regard to January 6th and what he knew about that. He refused to appear. He was then held in contempt, and that conviction was upheld and he went to jail for three months. Now, this is part of thei mean Donald Trump's systematic effort to forgive everybody who was implicated and dinged in January 6th. So, but the interesting thing about this is the Trump Bannon relationship. So Bannon, I mean, Bannon, you know, Bannon was the man who probably got Trump elected. He took over the campaign in August 2016. He imposed discipline on it. I mean, he had a vision of how to do this and was the guy who should get the credit for Trump's victory, which has always pissed Trump off. And then Bannon went into the White House and pissed everybody off and billed himself as Donald Trump's brain, which was.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, and there was a famous cover of Time where Steve Bannon was sitting behind the Resolute desk looking as if he were in charge, which Donald Trump. I think that was the beginning of the end for Steve Bannon in the Trump White House.

[Emma Brockes]

Right. So Steve Bannon lasted until August 2017, and then he was out. And he was a kind of. And let's point out that one of Steve Bannon's problems was that he became my significant source in my book Fire and Fury, and said all kinds of terrible things about Donald Trump and everyone in his family. So there has always been an amount of tension between them. So the interesting thing is, what did Bannon have to do? What was the negotiation to get Donald Trump and the Trump White House to support him in getting this conviction thrown out? It wasn'ti can guarantee it wasn't free. Soand I suspect that it was that Steve made a promise that to go easy on the war.

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, interesting. Because he's anti war. Anti forever wars.

[Emma Brockes]

Anti forever wars. He's a central MAGA voice. Continues to be a central MAGA voice. So that is my theory.

[Michael Wolff]

So when you say it wasn't free, you're not talking about the regular pardons economy where you can pay to get out of jail and people have done frequently. Yeah, no, this is literally. This is much more valuable.

[Emma Brockes]

Exactly.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, that is interesting.

[Emma Brockes]

Exactly.

[Michael Wolff]

And you always made the point when he came out of jail and we sent a reporter up there to watch him come out, that Trump hadn't organizedthis was not one of those scenarios where you get picked up in a flash car and brought to the White House or someone from the White House meets you. He was just left on his own.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah. I mean, Trump doesn't like Bannon, can't stand him. Actually, he's an irritant. Has always been an irritant to Trump. You know, I mean, he's clearly brags. I mean, Steve brags about how much smarter than he. Of course he's smarter.

[Michael Wolff]

Right.

[Emma Brockes]

And Just as a. You know, I have. I am not now speaking to Steve, but have had a long relationship with him and have always thought that he was incredibly entertaining and insightful and, of course, utterly opportunistic.

[Michael Wolff]

But, well, you sort of outmaneuvered him, actually. I mean, interestingly, you know, because he brought you on board into the White House. You sat there for seven months, you then produced the first book, which everybody says this can't possibly be true. Michael Wolff is exaggerating. And in fact, if anything, you were under. Under playing what chaos it was. But in fact, you actually outplayed Bannon. Or perhaps he didn't understand as a source quite how.

[Emma Brockes]

No, no, I think that he understood that he was. We were in a symbiotic relationship.

[Michael Wolff]

You were both in a chokehold.

[Emma Brockes]

Yes. So he wanted to kill Donald Trump and I wanted to kill Donald Trump. No, I didn't want to kill him. I just wanted. I wanted the. So he was willing to give me the story because at that point, he so hated Donald Trump. I mean, that's an interesting example of someone who actually was willing to talk about the pain of working for Donald Trump, of how much Donald Trump made everyone around him, makes everyone around him suffer.

[Michael Wolff]

So the other person that you used to get the story and now you're telling the story on your substack is Jeffrey Epstein, much more controversial figure even than Steve Bannon, which is hard to

[Emma Brockes]

be, although Bannon and Epstein then became a duo.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, because you introduced them. But in this week's episode, which I read with great interest, and this is just as this.

[Emma Brockes]

So every. I am writing the Epstein story as I know it in an episodic, on an episodic basis in installments every week, which is on substack. So this is a kind of a 19th century novel form.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. It's the sort of pamphlet that drops every. Every Monday. And it has a cliffhanger to it. And in this particular one, you bring together what I think is fair to say the most diabolical people in New York without quite understanding what you're doing at the time. So you're trying to bring together a consortium to buy New York magazine you call Mortgage.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, I was. New York magazine, where we both worked at the time, was put on the. Was put up for sale, was owned by a private equity group who had no idea what it was doing and was put up for sale in 2003. And, you know, when magazines are put up, that's always a dicey moment of what's going to happen there. Usually nothing good. So I was. And I loved working for New York magazine. Best job I ever had. So I called one. I knew sort of one person in New York who. Who had millions to spare and loved the title of being publisher. A man by the name of Mortimer Zuckerman.

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[Emma Brockes]

And who then owned the Daily News. And before that he had owned the Atlantic Monthly, but he was a guy really in the real estate business. Anyway, I called. I called him and said, because we knew each other and we were kind of friendly, and I said, would you be interested? And then he sort of got excited about it, but also wanted to do it with others because it's the magazine business and even a billionaire knows not to buy a magazine.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think it's probably fair to say New York Magazine was losing money, wasn't it?

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah, yeah, it was. Yes, it had lost money for some years. Yes, as most magazines were. But at any rate, he said. So I called him and he said, okay, well, we've got to get other people in. He said, do you know this guy? Jeffrey Epstein, who I had known in the two previous episodes on Substack, will explain the background of how I knew Epstein. And then it was after Epstein came in, 10 million. I'll put in 10 million. And then I got the call and it was actually Epstein who called me and said, I just spoke to Morton. He's going to bring in Harvey Weinstein to this deal.

[Michael Wolff]

So you literally have Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein as your hopeful benefactors?

[Emma Brockes]

Yes. No, no. And then this other guy, Nelson Peltz, who's a rapacious raider

[Michael Wolff]

and whose daughter, I think, is married to Brooklyn Beckham, Nicola Peltz, Brooklyn Beckham, who no longer speaks to Victoria or David.

[Emma Brockes]

It's a lovely group of people, but also, we should point out, you know, we were there at the same time and it was your magazine, too. So you then had to go work for the other people who then came in.

[Michael Wolff]

But at any rate, well, that was Bruce Wasserstein. So explain what happened, though, because in the story, for those of you who haven't read the substack, there's a Good sort of drama moment in the story.

[Emma Brockes]

So I am. There was a. This was going on, and these guys, Moore, Jeffrey, Harvey, whoever, you know, kept saying. And I kept saying, hey, I'm hearing other people are, you know, are trying to buy this magazine. No, no, no, no. Don't worry about anything.

[Michael Wolff]

And can I just mention, actually, because I've now remembered another character in all this that every Monday, Keith Kelly, then the reporter for the New York Post, would be writing updates. He was a very good media reporter. Everybody in the media read him. And he was writing weekly updates, if not more than that, about what was happening with your bid. And I remember thinking, I don't know who these people are, but I hope they win because I want Michael to stay at New York Magazine anyway. Please continue.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah, no, no, no. This was a very hot. This was everywhere. I mean, the New York. David Carr in the New York Times, who was then their media reporter, covering this constantly. I mean, there was a time now, quite some time ago, when what happened in the magazine business was a very hot topic.

[Michael Wolff]

Right? There was a time. Hard to believe that time has gone. But also, wasn't there a moment when Harvey Weinstein finds out that you're involved and says to Mort Zuckerman, you have to get rid of Michael Wolff?

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah. No. Epstein calls me and says, oh, yeah, Harvey doesn't like you. He wants you fired. And then he says, did you write something bad about him? And I said. I said, everybody writes bad things about Harvey. And then Epstein said, well, he's an animal. Don't worry about it. I'll take care of him.

[Michael Wolff]

Epstein says about Harvey Weinstein, he's an animal.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, it's hard not to.

[Michael Wolff]

For anyone. It takes one to no one. Takes one to no one.

[Emma Brockes]

But anyway, the denouement of this is that there's a New York Magazine Awards luncheon, which you were at. You were. I think you were the main organizer.

[Michael Wolff]

I was the organizer of that lunchtime.

[Emma Brockes]

I was filled with the great and the good.

[Michael Wolff]

But it was the first time they'd done it. And I felt massively under pressure to pull in as many celebrities as I possibly could. And actually, we had a very good lineup of people. We had Meryl Streep and we had Kevin Klein, who I think gave Meryl an award, but it's possible she gave him an award. We had Caroline Kennedy, who'd just been put in as head of some partnership at the New York School. She was supposed to raise resources for it. It was actually a very glamorous group of people.

[Emma Brockes]

But then I was sitting between. And this was discordant, to say the least. I was sitting between Hillary Clinton and Roger Ailes. Then the head of Fox News, who

[Michael Wolff]

I don't think had been invited. Roger Ailes. I think you spotted him and brought

[Emma Brockes]

him in, didn't you?

[Michael Wolff]

And I had to reorganize the seating for everybody because you were like, I'm bringing Roger Ailes.

[Emma Brockes]

Anyway, I was there between these two, who are actually rather. Rather cordial to each other. But anyway, sitting between us two, my phone rings and it's Jeffrey Epstein. And he says, bruce Wasserstein. Bruce Wasserstein is another financier raider, five

[Michael Wolff]

times married, I think.

[Emma Brockes]

And so he said, bruce Wasserstein has bettered our bid. We're done. I said, what do you mean, what are we going to do? And he says, and Epstein said, what do you mean, what are we going to do? We're done. Let me get back to you. I got Clinton here.

[Michael Wolff]

So he had Bill Clinton there, who probably knew that Hillary was at a lunch and he had a couple of hours to play with Jeffrey Epstein.

[Emma Brockes]

And that was. That was it. There you go.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, where would we be now?

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, my goodness me, Emma. Ook. You would have been in business with them. It's probably better where you were.

[Emma Brockes]

I would.

[Michael Wolff]

Honestly, it's so much better that it never happened.

[Emma Brockes]

No, I felt immediately. I mean, I felt both that moment in which you can feel both disappointment and utter relief.

[Michael Wolff]

And I remember sitting you next to Julianne Moore at their stage lunch, and then you replaced it with Roger Ailes.

[Emma Brockes]

Yeah, I had to get out, and

[Michael Wolff]

I was like, who would replace Julianne Moore? In what world would you replace the heavenly Julianne Moore with Roger Ailes?

[Emma Brockes]

Oh, no, Roger Ailes was great and a great talker and incredibly funny and all kinds of bad things, but also smart. Julianne Moore was just not. Not. She was not interested in me. And she's this movie star.

[Michael Wolff]

She's a movie star. I've always liked Julianne Moore. I think she's a very good actress. And I've always. I've sat next to her at lunches and actually always found her very lively and entertaining.

[Emma Brockes]

Really?

[Michael Wolff]

So there you go. So you left New York magazine, you went to Vanity Fair. Yeah, and I left New York Magazine, too. That was a bit of a trip down memory lane for us, which was kind of fun.

[Emma Brockes]

But this is how. How we met. We sort of begin at New York Magazine.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. Well, you got me the job.

[Emma Brockes]

I got you the job.

[Michael Wolff]

You sent to me. To come and work at New York magazine, and I'm very glad I did. And it was enormous fun. And magazines have disappeared. I've never seen an industry disappear faster than the magazine business. I mean, the music business has reinvented itself. Television reinvented itself. Magazines have just disappeared.

[Emma Brockes]

I mean, I spent my entire career in the magazine business business. And then for it to puff gone.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, now you're on substack and people can read this episodic story.

[Emma Brockes]

No. Well, it's interesting to go down. All of the people on substack, everyone I've ever known in the magazine business,

[Michael Wolff]

it's all on substack. Well, I noticed you were number one on substack, so you must be doing something right.

[Emma Brockes]

I'm trying to think what that is, I guess.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think you're writing about Epstein and people want to understand the actual truth of what you experienced.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, you know, I'm Epstein and I'm writing about Trump. I mean, these are the. I mean, how many subjects are there? Frankly, not too many.

[Michael Wolff]

Right.

[Emma Brockes]

I mean, we're. I mean, the entire world has become obviously reshaped by Donald Trump, not just by his mendaciousness, but by his command of such attention. Still. I mean, still. And we go back to this, all these threats against Iran and what he's going to do, and he's going to end civilization as they know it. I mean, this is all. And let us never forget about putting the attention back on him.

[Michael Wolff]

Yep. Well, if he gets prosecuted for war crimes, at least they've got lots of evidence of what he was planning to do. It's not like he can say he

[Emma Brockes]

didn't mean it and to be well prosecuted. I wonder how that happens. Well, that's for another time.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's for the Democrats to win the midterms, you know.

[Emma Brockes]

Well, they still can't prosecute them for war crimes if they win the midterms.

[Michael Wolff]

No, but let's take it. My point is, let's take it one step at a time before we go from here straight to the Hague. If you want updates on Michael Wolf's substack, you can click on the QR code and magically he will come to life. Are you reading it? You should be reading it like Dickens used to do that. He used to go and read his things. Why aren't you reading them?

[Emma Brockes]

Should I read it here? Maybe we could. Every Inside Trump's Head episode could now become a reading of.

[Michael Wolff]

No, you read it on substack. Read it on substack. You should Be reading it like Dickens did. You could even apply a beard and dress up as him.

[Emma Brockes]

Let's. Okay. You know, I just read my Murdoch book, so. My Murdoch book, which is now 10 years old. But, you know, since Murdoch.

[Michael Wolff]

There are two Murdoch books. Which. 1.

[Emma Brockes]

The First Murdoch book. And since he's going to die any minute,

[Michael Wolff]

making the world a better place is he's had his 95th birthday and his mother lived to 103. 103. So he could have. He's got good genes.

[Emma Brockes]

Nobody has good genes to take them past 95. He's already on borrowed time. When that ends could be right this very minute.

[Michael Wolff]

But anyway, Murdoch and Iran.

[Emma Brockes]

Anyway, I read this because I think the publisher now expects that with the passing. With the coming death of Rupert Murdoch,

[Michael Wolff]

people will want to hear Michael Wolff read his life story.

[Emma Brockes]

You know, and I kind of. I kind of. Have you ever done this? Read a book?

[Michael Wolff]

I have. It's very. Well, except I read my book and I was like, this is terribly badly written. I can't believe I did this. And I was extemporizing.

[Emma Brockes]

I had the exact opposite feeling, of

[Michael Wolff]

course, that your book was brilliantly written.

[Emma Brockes]

Oh, my God.

[Michael Wolff]

But I will say that at the end of my reading, my book called Love Rules about how to find a real relationship in a digital world, the engineer looked up and she said, this book has helped me enormously. And then she unfolded her romantic life and we discussed it, and she felt that the book had been very helpful. So there you go. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. And what else?

[Emma Brockes]

Thanks to our incredible team. Such an incredible team.

[Michael Wolff]

They are an incredible team.

[Emma Brockes]

Devin, Rachel, Ryan, Heather and Neil.

[Michael Wolff]

We'll be back on Thursday and who knows if Iran will still be standing.

[Emma Brockes]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay.