The Bonkers Secrets of Phone-Obsessed Trump: Wolff

Summary

Inside Trump's Head — The Bonkers Secrets of Phone-Obsessed Trump: Wolff

Podcast: Inside Trump’s Head
Hosts: Michael Wolff, Joanna Coles (with Matt Wilstein as interviewer)
Date: February 11, 2026

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Overview

This episode dives deep into Donald Trump’s compulsive relationship with the telephone—both as a personal obsession and a defining tool for how he manages relationships, information, and power. Michael Wolff, Trump’s biographer, and Joanna Coles dissect the quirks, patterns, and psychology behind Trump’s phone use, what it reveals about his character, and how it has warped the mechanics of modern politics. The episode is rich with stories from Wolff’s years of encounters with Trump, insights into staff workarounds, and the bizarre intimacy and distance Trump maintains through constant telephonic monologue.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Trump’s Relationship With the Phone

• Phone as Lifeline & Weapon

  • Trump is “always on the phone;” it is a perpetual companion both in public and in private.
  • If he’s not in a room with people to talk at, he’s on the phone with someone else, often even while others are present. (03:40)
  • “He always must be talking to somebody.” — Michael Wolff [03:59]

• Directness & Accessibility

  • Unlike other high-profile or corporate figures, Trump directly calls journalists (including Wolff), bypassing PR teams, both as self-promotion and complaint mechanism. [08:54–09:05]
  • His number is semi-private: “If you have the number… he’ll talk to you.” [02:34, 42:42]
  • Staff sometimes change his number (e.g., to block Rudy Giuliani from calling further) and remove contacts to manage who Trump can access. [02:39, 41:33]

• Lack of Digital Literacy

  • Trump avoids email and texts, possibly due to dyslexia, but more clearly to avoid a paper trail.
  • “I’ve known this with other kind of disreputable people—they prefer the telephone… they don’t want a trace.” — Michael Wolff [13:36–13:55]
  • He posts on Truth Social, but never uses email—prefers aural exchanges. [11:47–14:55]

Anatomy of a Trump Call

• Content and Structure

  • Calls are almost always about himself, particularly about not being included or highlighted in press coverage, not about correcting errors. [06:32–06:59]
  • “You didn’t write about me, therefore the article is wrong.” — Michael Wolff [06:41]
  • Calls are often long, rambling monologues with little to no room for response: “You never get a word in edgewise.” [15:45, 22:16]

• Universal Script & Monologue

  • Recipients (including Wolff, friends, and even interns) all get the same stories/messages—the phone becomes a broadcast device rather than a channel for dialogue. [24:57]
  • “You don’t occupy an individual space there. You’re just a person on the end of the phone.” — Michael Wolff [24:41]

• Call Beginning and End

  • Sometimes goes through a White House intermediary (“Please hold for the President…”), other times direct. [16:40–16:55]
  • Trump will abruptly end with instructions (“You let me know about this. I want to see you.”) but rarely actually follows up with meetings. [23:43–23:53]
  • Calls can occur at any time—mornings start around 7am with Trump calling from bed, and go late into the night. [25:27, 29:13]

Psychological Underpinnings: Loneliness, Control, and Broadcast

• Loneliness & Emotional Need

  • The phone is a surrogate for human connection; Trump is often physically alone (wife and daughter absent), relationships are transactional or distant.
  • “He’s lonely, and this is his way of reaching out and dominating the person he’s talking to.” — Matt Wilstein [21:58]

• Dominance, Not Dialogue

  • Trump’s calls serve mainly to air his thoughts, diss others, “try out lines,” and seek affirmation:
    • “He wants to tell you what he thinks and then for you to confirm that.” — Michael Wolff [31:38]
  • He avoids genuine input or debate; wants only agreement or confirmation.
  • “He’s always on transmit. He’s never on receive.” — Matt Wilstein [37:45]

• Call List & Inner Circle

  • He cycles through a relatively stable group of “everyday callers”—journalists, real estate magnates, Fox hosts, never female—seeking input that reinforces his views, or to relay gossip/complaints. [30:00–31:28, 32:32, 36:11]
  • Inner circle calls are daily; outsider recipients drop off the list as relationships sour.

• Personal Detail & Staff Mediation

  • At times, Trump needs an aide (Jared Kushner, Natalie Harp) to handle his phone—locate, dial, or manage access. He uses speed dial almost exclusively. [12:44, 41:57–42:06]
  • Staff intervention is necessary to curb his communication or prevent problematic connections (e.g., with reporters or problematic allies).

Press, Privacy, and Paranoia

• Old Habits Die Hard: The Leaker Within

  • “John Barron,” an old Trump pseudonym for leaking to press, still shorthand among staff for leaks they suspect came from Trump himself. [05:43–06:22]

• Transparency and Deception

  • Trump is, paradoxically, both more and less accessible than other presidents—calls directly, skips protocol, but interaction is superficial, performative, and often mendacious:
    • “He’s much more accessible and transparent than most politicians. But in another way, he’s not, because there’s no interaction.” — Michael Wolff [36:32]
  • Calls to journalists (sometimes to interns) can be confessional or absurd; the relationship is always shaped by Trump’s need to broadcast. [36:46, 40:57]

• Family Dynamics

  • Rarely calls his wife; notable that even major news is “conveyed on the telephone,” reinforcing the emotional and physical distance in his marriage. [34:34]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If he is not—if there are not people in the same room as he is, who he is talking to… he is on the phone.”
  — Michael Wolff [03:40]

• “You didn’t write about me, and because you didn’t write this about me and didn’t include me in this article, the article is wrong. You don’t understand anything.”
  — Michael Wolff [06:41]

• “There’s never a conversation, ‘What do you think I should be doing in this?’ … He wants to tell you what he thinks and then for you to confirm that.”
  — Michael Wolff [31:38–31:59]

• “You don’t occupy an individual space there. You’re just a person on the end of the phone.”
  — Michael Wolff [24:41]

• “He’s lonely, and this is his way of reaching out and sort of dominating the person he’s talking to.”
  — Matt Wilstein [21:58]

• “He’s always on transmit. He’s never on receive.”
  — Matt Wilstein [37:45]

• “It’s as though he could be having this with anybody … You’re a pair of ears. And that can go on for literally anyone.”
  — Michael Wolff [24:41, 24:57]

• “I mean, he does posts on Truth Social and he writes the posts. They’re often not incoherent, it’s true. … But within the White House… he reads minimally. If you give him something to read, he won’t read it. That’s a mistake on your part.”
  — Michael Wolff [14:56]

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Noteworthy Timestamps

• 02:30 — How people call Trump, his number management, and staff interventions
• 04:17 — Wolff’s earliest calls with Trump: Trump’s compulsive media self-insertion
• 05:43 — The persistent “John Barron” mythos inside Trump world
• 11:47–14:55 — Trump’s aversion to email, reading, and digital literacy
• 15:45–16:14 — What it’s like to receive a call from President Trump
• 22:16 — Structure of calls; his need for total dominance in conversation
• 24:41 — Political and personal calls as universal broadcasts, not dialogue
• 25:27–29:13 — Trump’s daily phone routine and sleep habits
• 30:00–32:32 — How his “inner circle” of calls works, real influence
• 34:34 — The phone as his only link even to his own wife
• 36:11 — His call list: the gender dynamic, why it’s almost all men
• 41:33 — Staff taking people out of Trump’s phone to control access
• 42:42 — If you have Trump’s number, he’ll answer—instant access, broadcast only
• 43:55 — “That’s not the right question. It’s what would he say to you?” (on calling Trump)

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Final Reflection

The Trump phone obsession episode underscores how the most trivial-seeming quirks—a love of the phone, a compulsion to monologue—don’t just define the man, but have reshaped the culture of American leadership and media. Trump’s inability to stop broadcasting, and his need for affirmation rather than genuine conversation, is as much a function of his isolation as his power. For those seeking to understand Trump (and, in Wolff’s phrase, “a government of one”), understanding his infinite, aimless phone calls—who’s on the line, who’s been disappeared from the speed dial, and who’s just tolerating the onslaught—may be as close as we get to seeing inside Trump’s head.

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This summary skips all advertising, promotional, and non-content segments for clarity and focus.

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

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[Matt Wilstein]

Do people call him?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Matt Wilstein]

And do they call him direct on.

[Michael Wolff]

The cell phone, if you have the number? Yeah, right.

[Matt Wilstein]

Does he distribute his number sort of wildly?

[Michael Wolff]

I wouldn't say wildly, but somewhat. If you have the number, it's somewhat complicated because the number then changes. Like they changed the number so that Rudy Giuliani couldn't call him anymore.

[Matt Wilstein]

They changed the number so Rudy Giuliani.

[Michael Wolff]

Couldn'T call him anymore. And then. Oh, and then sometimes the staff will take his phone and take people out of the phone because they don't want him calling. This person often a reporter.

[Matt Wilstein]

Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna.

[Matt Wilstein]

Where are we going? Where are we going?

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, God.

[Matt Wilstein]

We're going back there again. But we're doing a special issue inside Trump's head.

[Michael Wolff]

Inside Trump's telephone head?

[Matt Wilstein]

Yep. We're doing a special episode today where we are focused on one of Trump's tools, which is the telephone. We've had so many comments from people wanting to know more about how he uses the phone, and we thought, why not? So let's do a special episode focusing.

[Michael Wolff]

On it now, and let's set the context. He is always on the phone. If he is notif there are not people in the same room as he is, who he is talking to and literally talking to, since they don't talk to him, he talks to them. If they are not there, he is on the phone. Or as often when. When they are there, he is on the phone with someone else. So part of the thing, part of what's important to understand is that he always must be talking to somebody.

[Matt Wilstein]

Okay, so let's go back in time to when you first had your first calls with Donald Trump. You were at New York magazine.

[Michael Wolff]

So I was at New York magazine, and I was the media columnist for New York magazine. And media is what? Donald Trump. That's a kind of catnip for him. Who's the. I know how this would have gone. Who's the media guy? Get me the media guy. Anyway, he found out I was the media guy, and then he started to call me up.

[Matt Wilstein]

Okay, so I want you to set the scene, though. So your phone is ringing. And at this point. Is this pre cell phone? Is this a landline?

[Michael Wolff]

This is pre cell phone, yeah.

[Matt Wilstein]

Because I worked in New York magazine. I can still remember my number, I think. Okay. So the phone would ring and you didn't know who it was, or would it come up with caller id? Donald Trump?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I don't think that there was caller ID there.

[Matt Wilstein]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

I think I got a. I think I got a call and maybe I got a message first. I Don't know, but it was then Michael Donald Trump or. Yeah, Michael Donald Trump. And then he would go into it.

[Matt Wilstein]

Did you get his John Barron name?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I never got that. It was always. It was always Donald Trump.

[Matt Wilstein]

And John Barron was the name that he would pretend to be when he was calling with stories about himself to the New York Post. He would pretend he was a publicist called John Barron, who was really Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And they still. Within the. Within the White House, when there is a leak, when something appears in the New York Times or the Washington Post, and where does that. That come from? They go, john Barron.

[Matt Wilstein]

Oh, that's so interesting. So he's still leaking stuff about himself.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yes, but now he doesn't do it. That he doesn't call up the Washington Post and say, this is John Barron. But when he does do the leaking and he does leak himself, and then the staff knows that. Where did this come from? Well, it didn't come from us, so where must it have come from? It must have come from John Barron.

[Matt Wilstein]

So funny. All right, so set the scene. You're sitting there at New York magazine at your desk. The phone rings, and it's Donald Trump. And what is he usually ringing about?

[Michael Wolff]

He's ringing about some article, and almost always, as I recall, an article that he thought he should be in.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So it's not, you wrote this about me and it's wrong. It's you didn't write this about me. And because you didn't write this about me and didn't include me in this article, the article is wrong. You don't understand anything. Who is that? And then it was.

[Matt Wilstein]

Would he be sort of abusive and critical?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, but it would always be of someone else. Who is this other writer saying these things? That person is a moron. Obviously, it's me here. This happened because of me, and then this and that. And I would go, yeah, okay, okay, you know, I'll pass it on, or. Or so. Right you are. And I kind of. I mean, it was always amusing, semi amusing. And, you know, in thinking back, you think maybe he didn't mean it to be amusing, but it was. And then you could always go, you get off the phone. And then you could go, somebody, guess who I just heard from.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And remember, Donald Trump at this point. And this would have been the late 90s, early 2000s was a kind of a joke figure. So, you know, why not? Well, you could. It was. I can hear the voice. I mean, I can hear the voice partly because over in the years since I'VE heard it so often, but he was, you know, and he didn't really, even then want to hear from you. He didn't want to hear a justification. He didn't want to hear an explanation. He wanted just to tell you why he should have been in this article. And it wasn't brief.

[Matt Wilstein]

And were there any other people. I used the word important sort of loosely, but were there any other people who would do this?

[Michael Wolff]

You mean other people in New York.

[Matt Wilstein]

I mean, captains of industry or heads of media companies that will call you and say this piece? What are you thinking about? You missed this. It should have been about me.

[Michael Wolff]

No, all. All of the other calls were, you know, why did you say this about me? How could you have said this? And it was usually by their PR people.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So there was something kind of nice about the fact. I mean, transparent or honest or different about the fact that Donald Trump called you himself.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

He didn't have his PR people calling, and there was a sense that he liked to speak to me. Does that make sense? I mean, kind of.

[Matt Wilstein]

Well, he liked to speak to reporters.

[Matt Fallon]

Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

But even individually, when. And I think it's part of Donald Trump's charm in. Let me use air quotes, that when he spoke to you, you thought that he was, you know, he was really focused on you, and it was as though he wanted to speak to you. He liked speaking with you, which is the only reason, the only explanation for why he did it so often.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. And so, of course, back in these days, he was a Democrat, he was a New York character. Bit of a joke.

[Michael Wolff]

And, yeah, it was never very political, as I recall.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

There was no politics to this.

[Matt Wilstein]

So he's calling you on the landline.

[Michael Wolff]

And it was often about articles that he would have no reason to be in.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. So he just wanted your attention. He wanted to talk to you. He wanted your attention. He wanted to speak to a reporter. He was laying down tracks for when you next wrote about him.

[Michael Wolff]

I suppose. Yes.

[Matt Wilstein]

And how little did you know at that point how much you were writing about him?

[Michael Wolff]

No, and there was also, and I think it's important that that moment in time, you didn't really want to write about Donald Trump. You didn't really want Donald Trump in any stories that were written because he was kind of cliche.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

He was written out. He had. I mean, it was clear that anything, any story that Donald Trump was in by that point, he had shoehorned himself into.

[Matt Wilstein]

So it's so interesting. At the time I was writing for first the Guardian and then the Times of London and the one person that the news desk would ask me to try and get all the time was Donald Trump. And I never once tried. I would think, oh, such a cliche. It's the only New Yorker they've ever heard of.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Yeah, Right. So that's a. That's out of towners. That's an out of towners.

[Matt Wilstein]

Totally. The news says, can you get an interview with Donald Trump? And I'd think, I would rather shoot myself than get an interview with Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

You could have.

[Matt Wilstein]

I could have done. Well, who knew? But I had no interest in talking to him because I understood within the context of New York, he was thought to be a joke, but he was totally an out of towner's view of a New Yorker. So the cell phone comes out, I think the iPhone comes out in 2006. Right. Does Donald Trump move to the iPhone? Because what's so remarkable is how he really never seemed to have emails or texts.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I don't think he does right away. Eventually moves to an iPhone. Yes. In 2016. He certainly. He certainly did. I mean, that would have been the first point at which I'm observing him during the campaign. And I remember, actually, so I'm sitting with him. This first interview that I do with him is in his house in Beverly Hills.

[Matt Wilstein]

And this was for the Hollywood Reporter when he was thinking of running.

[Michael Wolff]

No, he was running. And I mean, that would have been in maybe April 2016. So he's already. It's already clear that he will almost certainly get the nomination at this, this point. But anyway, I'm in the house and I remember he made a. He had to call someone and Jared was there. Jared held the phone.

[Matt Wilstein]

Jared held the phone for him.

[Michael Wolff]

Meaning, in other words, Jared, I need my phone. So. Whereas we all keep our phones.

[Matt Wilstein]

Oh, I see. So he didn't keep the phone on him. Jarrod was the phone holder.

[Michael Wolff]

Right.

[Matt Wilstein]

And did Jared have to press the buttons for him or.

[Michael Wolff]

I believe so. I believe Jared got the person on the phone and then handed the phone.

[Matt Wilstein]

To because perhaps his little fingers can't reach the buttons.

[Michael Wolff]

But at any rate. So there's a couple of interesting things. The fact that he does not. Did not then and continues not to use email.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So it is all a verbal thing. It's not. The phone is. This is not about exchanging information. This is about talking.

[Matt Wilstein]

And he doesn't use emails and texts because he has dyslexia, because he can't read. Well, I think that is so much suspicion around It.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I think all of that is probably true, but I think that the other thing is, and I've known this with other kind of disreputable people, they prefer the telephone.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. Well, nobody wants a trace.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And I think it's very much inside his head. Don't email. I don't make that mistake.

[Matt Wilstein]

Do you think he is actually unable to read? I mean, there's been so much speculation about it, and he has that very sort of spidery signature. Do you actually think he can't read all these things?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I know. I mean, the people around him debate this all of the time.

[Matt Wilstein]

Do they?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. You know, what does he. You know, he can read something. He can read headlines.

[Matt Wilstein]

I mean, he seems to read speeches from teleprompters.

[Michael Wolff]

Headlines about him. But he seems also not to read speeches from teleprompters.

[Matt Wilstein]

But he reads enough of a speech from a teleprompter to think he must be able to read unless he just remembers it, because often people with dyslexia.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think. I think obviously there's something going on there. Obviously he does something. I mean, he does. He does posts on Truth Social and he writes the posts. They're often not incoherent. It's true.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

But he does. Within the White House. I mean, he doesn't. He reads minimally. I mean, and it's very important to treat him that way. If you give him something to read, he won't read it. That's a mistake on your part. So.

[Matt Wilstein]

So he likes information coming in orally and he likes to talk.

[Michael Wolff]

No, he doesn't really like it. Information, of course.

[Matt Wilstein]

You said that.

[Michael Wolff]

You mentioned coming in orally. Because he doesn't like information coming to him. He likes to dispense information or dispense whatever it is he dispenses, which is not necessarily information.

[Matt Wilstein]

So where does he get.

[Michael Wolff]

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Matt Wilstein]

Where does he get his information from? From television.

[Michael Wolff]

Some television.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. So he basically watches television or he's on the phone.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Matt Wilstein]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

And the phone is always, you know, you never get a word in edgewise.

[Matt Wilstein]

So I remember Anthony Scaramucci, who, as we know, was his head of, you know, White house comms for 11 days. Just saying that you were on a rota, that he would, you know, he would call you late at night, you would pick up the phone, he was already talking. He would be already talking when you hung up, and you knew he was just calling through everybody he knew. Tell us what it's like to get the Call.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, the interesting thing is that you don't have a second to kind of process that, that the President of the United States is calling you up.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Because then he launches into whatever he's going to say. You're irrelevant. He's going. And then you're trying to understand what the hell he's talking about. And then you think. You think. First thing, you're not sure it's him. Is it him? But then you think, yes, I know this voice.

[Matt Wilstein]

Does he call or do they say, say, Mr. Wolf, please hold for the President of the United States?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yes, I've gotten both calls.

[Matt Wilstein]

Okay. So sometimes it's just directly him, and sometimes you get. It goes via his. Natalie Harp or whoever.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, exactly. Yes. And then it's. And that's kind of an interesting moment. Can you hold for the president?

[Matt Wilstein]

What are you saying?

[Michael Wolff]

This is the White House. Can you hold for the President?

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. Not right. Not right now. Can you ask him to call me back in five?

[Michael Wolff]

But then he just launches in. And you don't know. You don't know the context. You don't know. You're not clear about what the subject is. You're not clear about the purpose. You're not even clear that he has called the right person. So you're kind of almost paralyzed.

[Matt Wilstein]

So you're sort of in the headlights.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And then you're thinking, I'm on the phone with the President of the United States and shouldn't I get off of the phone? Shouldn't this call end? Because you know, the world might need.

[Matt Wilstein]

The world is on fire, Donald.

[Michael Wolff]

And then he goes on, and then he keeps going on. So you are on the phone with the President of the United States for. And then you're looking at the. It's 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. It's got to end. You're thinking, when is it going to end? How do I end it?

[Matt Wilstein]

So how can you end it? He's the president. He's the more powerful person on the phone. Don't you have to wait for him to end it?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I suppose. Yes. But then you feel a kind of compulsion to help him end it, to get on and to, you know, attack Greenland, whatever. And now a word from our sponsors.

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[Matt Wilstein]

And Michael Wolff and I are back. Well, you know where we are. We're inside Trump's head. What is he using the phone for?

[Michael Wolff]

I think he's using it for, you know, a human connection. I mean, I don't think he knows how to make a human connection. So without the actual connection, he has the phone and he is constantly, you know, and ISO, there's this other thing. When I report on this, when I'm reporting on Trump, I know a whole set of the people he calls and calls frequently, regularly, people on his call list. And the call list kind of morphs, but slowly. And so you can kind of track these people. I know these people. I can call this. Have you heard? Yes. And then they will tell you what he has told them because they're always.

[Matt Wilstein]

So.

[Michael Wolff]

I think everybody in some way reacts the same way. What was that about? And so it's to go over it with someone else.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. But it's very interesting that you say he uses the phone for human connection because his daughter's not there, his wife's not there. He's lonely. Right. What I'm taking from this is he's lonely, and this is his way of reaching out and sort of dominating the person he's talking to.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's certainly dominating because you never get a word in edgewise.

[Matt Wilstein]

And is he trying stuff out on you because you say that?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, no, Totally. Totally. And he's dissing people all over the place. I mean, it's unfiltered and you're just listening to it, but it jumps all over the place. So you don't really know. Was there a point here? Are we going somewhere? Is this. What's the takeaway? You don't know. And you're always kind of trying to sort of get a word in edgewise. Why? I don't know. Except that. That seems like what you do if you're a. You know that. Thisif. Thisif. He's looking for a human connection, you want to kind of. You feel sorry for him. Let's have a little conversation here.

[Matt Wilstein]

You feel sorry for the President of.

[Michael Wolff]

The United States or else just the novelty of saying, Mr. President, Mr. President, but it doesn't matter. That's all you get to say. And then he's over. And then he's on to something else.

[Matt Wilstein]

And how does he wrap up the call? So he's called you. You've put it on speakerphone because you can't believe is calling you. And it's a historic.

[Michael Wolff]

And I've sat in my house with everybody in my house, right?

[Matt Wilstein]

Listening, Just.

[Michael Wolff]

Just like.

[Matt Wilstein]

Well, it's the most famous voice in the world, right? How does he wrap up a conversation? Is he like, gotta go, bye, or does he even say bye? I have friends who have phone calls with me and they don't even say bye.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I got. I have those. Those people too.

[Matt Wilstein]

They're probably the same people.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, he does the thing. Let's get this. You. You let me know about this. I mean, it's a set of instructions. You let me know about this.

[Matt Wilstein]

A set of instructions.

[Michael Wolff]

And I want to see you. Let's get together, let's sit down about this. And that, of course, doesn't particularly happen, but sometimes it happens.

[Matt Wilstein]

Well, Less so now he's suing you.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Matt Wilstein]

Well, saying he's suing you.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. At the moment, I seem not to be his friend, as he's noted.

[Matt Wilstein]

Yeah, that's not a friend. That was his comment when he said that you'd conspired with Epstein to do harm to his presidency. So he'll be suing you and Trevor Noah, who made a joke about him.

[Michael Wolff]

So that's not a friend.

[Matt Wilstein]

That's not a friend. No. So he still thinks of you as a friend. So he calls you and he's already in the conversation already. Right. And then he ends it with.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, it's as though he could be having this with anybody. This is not. You are not. And you kind of realize this. You don't occupy an individual space there. You're just a person on the end of the phone.

[Matt Wilstein]

You're a pair of ears.

[Michael Wolff]

And that can go on for literally anyone. And so as I often track this, you know, and I'll say, well, what did he say to you? And then it will be the same thing he said to me or the same thing he said to the last person I knew he has called.

[Matt Wilstein]

And how early in the morning does it begin and how late in the evening does it go on? Because I'm.

[Michael Wolff]

Punction's literally first thing I think is.

[Matt Wilstein]

And what is first thing for him?

[Michael Wolff]

As soon as he gets up? You know, I don't. I think he's up at about, you know, 7ish. And then he's.

[Matt Wilstein]

He's lying in bed calling.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, he's lying in bed calling people.

[Matt Wilstein]

I can't even imagine. Do you think. What do you think he sleeps in? Does he sleep in white pajamas? Does he sleep naked? Does he sleep in, like, boxers and a T shirt? I mean, you know, we had Jen Welch on the Daily Beast podcast, and she said he's like a teenage girl. And then we got lots of comments in saying teenage girls are much more organized and much nicer and much more thoughtful than Donald Trump, which I thought was a fair point. But she meant that he's just obsessed with his phone. He's lying in bed on his phone. He's tracking things on his phone.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. I did have. I curiously have had a discussion with him about sleepwear, because someone. I can't remember the story, but someone mentioned something about his robe that he came down in his robe. And I don't know why this involved. Involved.

[Matt Wilstein]

Must have been a white towel.

[Michael Wolff]

Involved me. But he said, of course there's. Can you can you see me in a robe? I'm not a robe kind of guy. You don't think that I'm a robe kind of guy?

[Matt Wilstein]

Of course he's a robe kind of guy. Don't you think he'd be in a white hotel robe with Mar A Largo?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. I was thinking, what is a robe kind of guy? I wear a robe, but I don't know. No, I mean, he was incensed about the robe, the accusation or the characterization that he would be in a robe.

[Matt Wilstein]

I'm like, okay, I would totally think he's a robe guy. And I feel like I've seen photos of him in a big, thick, white hotel room.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm just telling you.

[Matt Wilstein]

Okay?

[Michael Wolff]

That's all I know.

[Matt Wilstein]

Can't imagine. I wish I understood what he said. Yes.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no. I don't think you're a robe kind of guy.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. So he's in his bed.

[Michael Wolff]

He's with the hamburger.

[Matt Wilstein]

No, the cold hamburger from the night before. I wonder. So I can't imagine what he's wearing. Is he wearing a grey T shirt and boxers? Is he. Is he wearing nice white piping pajamas?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. I can only tell you the robe.

[Matt Wilstein]

Okay?

[Michael Wolff]

That's all I know.

[Matt Wilstein]

All right. So he's not wearing a robe, but he's sitting in bed clutching his phone. The morning has begun and he's calling to see how it's been playing. The televisions are on. He's obviously the lead story in almost every channel. Right. Do you think he has the newspapers brought to him?

[Michael Wolff]

No, because he would have to read them.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. But we know he used to read things because he used to cut them out and send them to the journalist with his squiggly thing on it, Right?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Matt Wilstein]

All right. So breakfast comes. English muffin, bit of bacon, maybe a ham.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. This is out of my. I don't know these.

[Matt Wilstein]

These details, but does he start calling people? Does he start calling people immediately?

[Michael Wolff]

He does call me again, though.

[Matt Wilstein]

Let me know. Okay? Please ask him. So does he.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna wants to know.

[Matt Wilstein]

Please tell him. And he'll be like, joanna who? But I want you to. So he wakes up in the morning and immediately he's on the phone.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Matt Wilstein]

Okay. And then he comes downstairs and he's still on the phone. He's just never on his own is the point.

[Michael Wolff]

He's never on his own. He's always speaking to someone. His mouth is always running. I don't think that there is. There must be. But I Can't imagine it. A moment of silence in the middle of the night. What happens?

[Matt Wilstein]

Well, he. Truth socials in the middle of the night, right?

[Matt Fallon]

Yes.

[Matt Wilstein]

So he wakes up the first thing he does.

[Michael Wolff]

So. Yes.

[Matt Wilstein]

So how come he's disciplined enough not to write emails or texts, but he's figured out how to truth social?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think the truth social is a specific thing. It's a broadcasting to the world. This is what he knows. This is public. He wants it to be public. What he doesn't want is private statements.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, but it's interesting, this call list that he has, you know, so this is the real. These are the real advisors, you know, the people around him, the employees are not really advisors. I mean, they're minions. They're people in his wake. There are people fetching him things. They're people picking up the candy wrappers. They're not the people he is turning to for advice. Now we'll get to how he gets the advice he wants to. But there's this set of people and it changes, but it doesn't change by that much. You know, there's Fox people. Hannity has been consistently on this list. Sometimes Tucker gets on this list. There's a set of people in New York, real estate people, often real estate people, who are consistently on the list and have been for. For many years. These are the people who he calls constantly and who he kind of feeds lines to. So they know what is expected of them, what they have to say. So he'll often lead with. I mean, a lot of his conversation is personal. I mean, like he was suing me the other day. But the people around him, Pam Bondi, you know, he'll diss her. He'll call up and say, you know, I think she's. She's kind of. She's kind of. She's kind of a dummy, don't you think? And then somebody will say, yeah, I think she's a dummy.

[Matt Wilstein]

So he's saying things because he wants to hear back his own opinion.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly.

[Matt Wilstein]

So he's never realized, trying to put together as a policy or he's trying to figure out.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm not even sure that it goes that far. It's just, he needs the. He's looking for confirmation for what he already thinks. There's never a conversation. What do you think about her? What do you think I should be doing in this? He doesn't want that. He wants to tell you what he thinks and then for you to confirm that.

[Matt Wilstein]

Exhausting.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Matt Wilstein]

Exhausted. I mean, he must dread his friends around him, I think, must dread him calling, don't they?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I don't. I mean, I dread him calling, but, you know, on the same time, he's the President of the United States. Right. So it's a. It's a. It's a weird kind of thing now. He doesn't call. Hasn't called me that. That many times. But some of these people hear from him all of the time now and.

[Matt Wilstein]

Define all of the time. Like every day.

[Michael Wolff]

Every day. If you're on the.

[Matt Wilstein]

If you're on the inner circle.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. You could be an everyday caller now. I think you get things from that. So you're on the inner circle and you're getting. I don't know, you then become part of a crypto deal. I haven't become part of a crypto deal deal, though, if I were a friend.

[Matt Wilstein]

Well, you're not a friend anymore because that's why he's suing you. It's not a thing a friend would do to conspire with Jeffrey Epstein against his presidency.

[Michael Wolff]

Actually, there's a Jeffrey Epstein point here, too, because Jeffrey Epstein was not speaking to Trump, certainly during the period that I was talking to Jeffrey Epstein, but Jeffrey Epstein was talking to many of the people who were speaking to Donald Trump. And Epstein knew the pattern here, knew who was on the call list.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And then those people on the call list would call Epstein and then Epstein would call me.

[Matt Wilstein]

That's just brilliant. Brilliant for all those people who thought you were making stuff up in your book, in fact, you were. Yes, right. So interesting. So is there something about the fact that a conversation you have on the phone is once removed from sitting with the actual person that Donald Trump likes?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. Because actually, when you sit with him, it's the same thing. It's just a monologue.

[Matt Wilstein]

So the phone is merely a device to carry on.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly right.

[Matt Wilstein]

Carry on talking and carry on not being on his own.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. I mean, I think the phone is transparent. It just is. You know, get me so. And so I am just continuing this conversation. I am just talking. And this is the way I talk now, because I don't have anyone in front of me to talk to. So I use the phone and then I talk, and then I talk to.

[Matt Wilstein]

This person, that person in the Melania movie there is a wonderful bit which actually they put in the trailer because she clearly wants us to know that she's not really with this man and they have a transactional marriage or she turns up when she needs to but he calls her to see if she's understood that the vote certification has happened. He's now officially president. And she's like, no, I will watch on news. So she has no interest in hearing him, but it was interesting that the information was conveyed on the telephone. They weren't together, and she was putting that in the trailer because she wants you to know that at the most important time of his life, when he's about to be ratified as president for the second time, against all odds, she is not with him. But again, you're mindful of the fact the phone is the vehicle. He's having to call his own wife, who is not looking on the television, which gives you real insight into their relationship. And she puts it in the trailer. She is signaling as loudly as she can, as if she's got a huge mirror on the top of the mountain.

[Michael Wolff]

It's as mirror as possible. And the phone is. I mean, he doesn't really have a marriage. He doesn't really have. I mean, there is no one around.

[Matt Wilstein]

He doesn't really have friends. Yeah. How did he end up as our president?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And the curious thing, I don't know of any women who are on his regular call list.

[Matt Wilstein]

Well, he's surrounded by women who look like younger versions of his wife.

[Michael Wolff]

But the call list are men, rich.

[Matt Wilstein]

Men, important men, golfing buddies, real estate buddies, and the odd journalist. And he does call journalists. I mean, one of the things he does do, which is unusual, certainly for a president, is he calls journalists directly.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, no. I mean, in a way, he's much more accessible and transparent than most politicians. But in another way, he's not. Because it's just. You don't. There's no interaction there.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. And also, he's frequently telling lies.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. It's just broadcast, and it's frequently incoherent.

[Matt Wilstein]

I remember someone telling me that he used to call, and perhaps he still does reporters at the New York Times. And one time he called a number that was usually the number of a journalist, but an intern happened to be sitting there and picked it up. And he went, oh, it's Donald Trump, you know, and he said, well, I'm just the intern. And Donald Trump started giving him advice as an intern, which was actually a rather sort of endearing moment, I think. And I think the intern was sort of eyes on sticks, and then probably couldn't get rid of the president either. But it is fascinating that it is a device for connection, as you say. And also, he's constantly on broadcast. He's always on broadcast.

[Michael Wolff]

But it's a weird connection, which, I mean, it's not a real connection, or he doesn't know how to make the connection or doesn't really want to complete the connection because it's all broadcast 100%.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. He's always on transmit. He's never on receive.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And it is incoherent, which is the other thing to appreciate about this. I mean, it goes on. You think, my God, where are we going with this? This is like a pinball. We're there, we're there. And what is he talking about? Who is he talking about? You don't know what's going on.

[Matt Wilstein]

Do you think he's watching television while he's on the phone?

[Michael Wolff]

In my experience, I don't hear a television in the background. But then again, when he's on the phone, I'm kind of transfixed.

[Matt Wilstein]

I can't even imagine him doing things though, like plugging his phone in and charging it at night. I mean, does he do what Arianna Huffington always says we must do, which is have a little bed for our phones and put it outside our room? Does he have more than one phone? Does he have them all lined up? Does he have one that he truth socials on and then the other that he talks on?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. And it's interesting also that other and I just spoke flashing on instances that someone is carrying the phone for him.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. And do people call, you know, like.

[Michael Wolff]

Natalie Harp, the, you know, the human printer? The human printer is often the phone. Where's my phone?

[Matt Wilstein]

Snaps his finger, does it? He goes, where's my phone?

[Michael Wolff]

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[Matt Fallon]

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[Matt Wilstein]

And Trump author Michael Wolff and I are back inside Trump's head. And do people call him?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Matt Wilstein]

And do they call him direct on the cell phone?

[Michael Wolff]

If you have the number, yeah.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. And does he distribute his number sort of wildly?

[Michael Wolff]

I wouldn't say wildly, but somewhat. If you have the number, there was a moment when they. It's somewhat complicated because the number then changes. Like they changed the number so that Rudy Giuliani couldn't call him anymore.

[Matt Wilstein]

They changed the number so Rudy Giuliani.

[Michael Wolff]

Couldn'T call him anymore. Oh, and then sometimes the staff will take his phone and take people out of the phone because they don't want him calling this person, often a reporter. So because he can't. Oh, that's the other thing. He can't dial the phone. The number has to be in the phone.

[Matt Wilstein]

So how does he dial? Does he just speak into the phone and say, hey, Siri, call?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he doesn't. He can just push the thing, the speed dial.

[Matt Wilstein]

So he's got a speed dial and then he just presses the numbers. Exactly.

[Michael Wolff]

So if they take you out of that, he won't call you. You've been disappeared.

[Matt Wilstein]

Right. And, well, I guess they. Who has the pass number to his phone? Who has the passcode? I wonder if it's facial ID that.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. You're in the weeds here. That I have not been in.

[Matt Wilstein]

I'm just trying to imagine it all because the details are what make it such a fascinating story. Precisely because he seems so isolated. Isolated. The phone is his sort of grappling hook to real life.

[Michael Wolff]

And then the other thing is. And it's. And it's interesting, anyone who has that number, he'll talk to. So, I mean, it is kind of instant access. You have that number, you call him up and he will talk to you. Now, you might not be able to transact the business that you wanted to transact, because he's just talking, but there you are. Your name will come up on the screen. He'll take it, and then off he goes. Delighted to talk to you.

[Matt Wilstein]

It's just. Well, well, well, well. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. If we get Donald Trump's number, we'll flash it up on the screen so we can all call him. We should actually have a conference call with him and our. And our B Beast members.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I'm sure he'd be open to that possibility. Just set it up.

[Matt Wilstein]

Okay, we'll try and set it up. All right. Another reason to become a B Beast member of the Daily Beast. We're independent media, so we appreciate your support. Leave us a comment. Would you phone Donald Trump if you had his number, and what would you say to him if you did?

[Michael Wolff]

That's not the right question. It's what would he say to you?

[Matt Wilstein]

Yeah, because you wouldn't get a word in edgeways. Okay. What would he say to you? That's better. All right, Garfried, if you can't make a limerick out of that, I don't know what you can. I guess for people who've just joined the podcast for the first time and perhaps got to the end of it, should we just give them a line of why we do inside Trump's head and why we think, why we hope it's different to the way other people cover Donald Trump, which is. I'm obsessed by the details of his life, but also we think of him as a character. Character is destiny.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, also, we think that in a government of one, it is most vital to understand who this person is, why he's doing what he's doing, what he's thinking, that we are all under this idiosyncratic rule, and we're the people trying to understand it. This is not about politics. This is about Donald Trump.

[Matt Wilstein]

Yeah. It's about character. It's about what is inside Trump's head. Joanna, Hi.

[Michael Wolff]

I have to tell you about something that we're obsessed with.

[Matt Fallon]

I'm Kevin Fallon.

[Matt Wilstein]

And I'm Matt Wilstein.

[Michael Wolff]

And we are hosting Obsessed, the podcast about all the TV shows, movies, and.

[Matt Fallon]

Entertainment newsmakers that we're all obsessed with.

[Michael Wolff]

So make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube at the YouTube channel. Make sure you follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for Obsessed, the podcast, and we will see you there.

[Matt Wilstein]

So the good news is we have so many bebeast tier members now there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino Ryan Murray Rachel Passer Heather Passaro Nicole Neil Rosenhaus.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Matt Fallon]

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Matt Wilstein]

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Michael Wolff]

We're the only comedy relationship podcast ever. Yeah, I said it. And we're so good. We've been written up in both the New York Times and we made Grindr's list of top podcasts.

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[Michael Wolff]

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