The CEO Killer, Show-Stopping Chips, and the “Rupert Murdoch of Afghanistan”

Summary

The Daily Beast Podcast Episode: The CEO Killer, Show-Stopping Chips, and the “Rupert Murdoch of Afghanistan”
Release Date: December 12, 2024

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of The Daily Beast Podcast, co-hosts Joanna Coles and Samantha Bee delve into some of the most riveting stories of the week. From a high-profile murder case shaking the corporate world to insightful discussions on media freedom in Afghanistan, this episode promises a blend of intrigue, humor, and profound analysis.

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A Night to Remember: Comic Relief and the Chips Incident

Timestamp: 02:36 – 11:10

Joanna and Samantha kick off the episode by recounting their experience at the annual Comic Relief event. Co-chaired by Joanna Coles, the evening was a blend of comedy, heartfelt tributes, and unexpected moments that left a lasting impression.

Samantha Bee shares a humorous yet slightly embarrassing moment:

"[Samantha Bee, 09:15] 'Especially, I knew a couple of people who were sitting further back. I'm going to ask them if they could hear the chips. And I believe they could. It was like an earthquake.'"

During Amy Schumer's heartfelt tribute to comedy legends like Robin Williams, Whoopi Goldberg, and Billy Crystal, Samantha's munching on a bag of chips became the unexpected centerpiece of the evening. Amy noticed the noise, prompting a lighthearted reprimand:

"[Samantha Bee, 09:43] 'Dame Judi Dench.'

Joanna, ever the gracious host, took the blame for the chip-crunching mishap, ensuring Samantha could enjoy the event without lingering embarrassment. The duo laughs about the incident, highlighting the blend of professionalism and personal quirks that make their partnership unique.

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Breaking News: The CEO Killer Case

Timestamp: 14:03 – 31:16

Transitioning from comedy to corporate crime, the hosts introduce Harry Lambert, the Daily Beast's special correspondent and editor, who provides an in-depth analysis of the shocking murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson by Luigi Mangione.

Harry Lambert outlines the timeline:

"[14:35] 'Wednesday, December 4, 6:45am The United Healthcare CEO is gunned down by an unknown assailant...'”

Mangione's swift escape into Central Park and subsequent five-day manhunt captivated the nation. The breakthrough came when Mangione was apprehended at a McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania, thanks to his distinctive bushy eyebrows and the charm of a compassionate hostel receptionist who convinced him to remove his mask.

Joanna Coles adds a personal touch:

"[16:15] 'What I loved was the detail of him going to McDonald's and ordering hash browns because he obviously wanted comfort food after he'd been on the run for five days.'”

The discussion delves into the societal implications of the case, questioning why Mangione has garnered a "Robin Hood" persona online despite the heinous nature of his act. Samantha Bee expresses her discomfort with the glorification of violence:

"[22:27] 'It has been a really weird kind of bifurcated my brain a little bit. How people have found it so amusing and seen him as a Robin Hood figure is. It's actually kind of astonishing to me.'"

The hosts critique the fragmented nature of modern media consumption, where shared national narratives have diminished, yet high-stakes stories like this still manage to momentarily unite public attention.

Harry Lambert emphasizes the media's role:

"[28:32] 'Samantha Bee: I do think it's good that the book that. Well, you know, the book that he was. That he had inscribed, Deny what is The. What is the title of the book?'"

The conversation wraps up with reflections on leadership and the unpredictable nature of high-profile crises, hinting at broader political ramifications.

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Global Focus: Saad Mousseni, the “Rupert Murdoch of Afghanistan”

Timestamp: 33:15 – 58:58

The latter half of the episode introduces Saad Mousseni, the CEO of Moby Group and an influential media figure in Afghanistan, often dubbed the "Rupert Murdoch of Afghanistan." Saad provides a comprehensive look into the state of media freedom under the Taliban regime and his efforts to sustain an independent press amidst mounting challenges.

Saad Mousseni highlights the complexities:

"[34:44] '...the Taliban arrived saying, hey, we're here to serve you. So the courts function better. The government, of course, is more attentive to people's needs.'”

Despite the Taliban's oppressive stance on women and media, Saad recounts how his news organization has thrived by actively recruiting and empowering female journalists:

"[39:51] '...we have three times as many women working in our news department than we did in 2021.'"

He discusses innovative approaches to circumvent restrictions, such as using WhatsApp for tutoring girls in mathematics, highlighting the resilience and ingenuity required to maintain educational and informational access.

Samantha Bee probes deeper into the societal impact:

"[46:49] '...if you look at Jelani in Syria, for example, he's very similar to some of the more pragmatic Taliban.'"

The conversation extends to regional dynamics, comparing the Taliban's governance with emerging leadership in Syria under rebel leader Jelani. Saad provides insights into the geopolitical shifts, emphasizing the importance of continued global engagement to support Afghanistan's progress.

Saad Mousseni stresses the necessity of international involvement:

"[51:53] '...you have to fly aid into the country. You have to talk to the Taliban, you distribute it. You have to engage with the Taliban to address human rights issues.'"

The hosts commend Saad's efforts and underline the critical role of media in fostering change:

"[58:23] '...people have this nostalgia about strong men. And let me tell you, from someone who's, you know, who's dealt with strong men, it's not the answer.'"

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Conclusion

The episode seamlessly weaves humor, intense storytelling, and critical analysis, offering listeners a multifaceted perspective on contemporary issues. From the levity of a chip-induced comedy scene to the gravity of a corporate assassination and the struggles for media freedom in Afghanistan, Joanna Coles and Samantha Bee deliver an engaging and thought-provoking narrative.

Notable Quotes:

• "[09:15] '...it was like an earthquake.'" – Samantha Bee on the chip incident.
• "[14:35] '...The United Healthcare CEO is gunned down by an unknown assailant...'" – Harry Lambert on the CEO killer case.
• "[22:27] '...how people have found it so amusing and seen him as a Robin Hood figure...'" – Samantha Bee on public perception of Luigi Mangione.
• "[39:51] '...we have three times as many women working in our news department than we did in 2021.'" – Saad Mousseni on women in Afghan media.
• "[46:49] '...if you look at Jelani in Syria, for example, he's very similar to some of the more pragmatic Taliban.'" – Saad Mousseni on regional leadership dynamics.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Daily Beast Podcast underscores the power of storytelling in shaping public discourse. Whether it's through personal anecdotes or global issues, Joanna and Samantha ensure that listeners are both entertained and enlightened.

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Produced by Sarah Demonkoff via Baron Reinstein, Jesse Cannon, and Seamus Calder. Additional writing by Sasha Seinfeld and edited by Deanna Chapman. Engineered by Cameron Shanken.

Transcript

[Samantha Bee]

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Samantha Bee]

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[Joanna Coles]

Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm Joanna Coles and I'm the Chief Content Officer of the Daily Beast.

[Samantha Bee]

And I am Samantha Bee, Chief content officer of Matthew McConaughey's tuna salad recipe, which I've been told by Seamus, has peas and corn in it. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Joanna Coles]

Oi. We have an embarrassment of riches in our download today. We've got Harry Lambert back, the Daily Beast special correspondent and editor who will be giving us his take on the story we've been obsessed with at the Beast, the CEO killer, Luigi Mangione.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, Joanna, what a story.

[Joanna Coles]

What a story. We'll come back to it. And for our Beast of the Week, we're speaking with Saad Mousseni, who's known as the Rupert Murdoch of Afghanistan.

[Samantha Bee]

Great.

[Joanna Coles]

But can I just tell you, I've had a nightmare day just getting here this morning. I'm sort of. I'm sweating. Normally you talk about sweating, but I am overdressed. It's 60 degrees out there, but I dressed as if it was 26 degrees. There is a story that haunts me, which is, I think, an apocryphal story of a woman who was pulled out of the Thames, the River Thames in London, having jumped, jumped off Waterloo Bridge. And she's fished out. She's still alive, she's in a Chanel suit, she's still clutching a little briefcase. And they said to her, why did you do it? Why did you jump? What's going on in your life? And she went, I just couldn't get a cab. And I know that feeling. I think of that story all the time because sometimes it's the little things that bring you down. I had a leak this morning. I'm having a boiler fitted to my house, which is an enormous amount of money. And it's one of those, you know, you spend a lot of money on something that you feel no benefit for. It's not like getting a fabulous new coat or something.

[Samantha Bee]

And you're wearing. It's 60 degrees out and you're wearing 60 degrees skirt.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm wearing a leather skirt. And I bought. I was wearing a huge shearling coat. And I got here and literally I felt like one of those potholes in New York where it's just steam coming out of it.

[Samantha Bee]

God, you're a swamp right now. You've got to get home. You've got to get home and put on a silky robe.

[Joanna Coles]

I do. I don't have a silky robe, but I need a silky robe.

[Samantha Bee]

Speaking of silky robes, we went to another fancy party together and we have to tell people about it because one of the greatest things that I have ever personally experienced as a human being happened at that party.

[Joanna Coles]

It was really fun. Though I will say I was expecting you to turn up in what you'd said to me was your Dries Van Noten new jacket.

[Samantha Bee]

I did. I bought a new jacket that was perfectly like the attire suggested attire was cocktail. Festive, festive, festive cocktail. And it looked online like the perfect festive cocktail jacket. And then I put it on and it seemed like it was made for an 8 foot tall woman, not a 5, 4 woman. So I think that some tailoring is needed and maybe a little pocket removal. And I just, I put it on and I looked like I was like, I had gone into my grandmother's closet, and my grandmother was a giant. It looked silly.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I was looking forward to seeing it because I love Dries Van Loen, but I was disappointed you didn't have it on there. You looked fabulous.

[Samantha Bee]

It looks wonderful in my closet. So the event was Comic Relief.

[Joanna Coles]

Comic Relief.

[Samantha Bee]

You were one of the co chairs of the event. Is that accurate?

[Joanna Coles]

Co chair of the event, which you might remember because we had Richard Curtis, who started the British version of Comic Relief, and Robin Williams, Whoopi Goldberg, and Billy Crystal started the American version of Comic Relief, and Richard brought them all together. So this. This was to celebrate Billy and Whoopi.

[Samantha Bee]

It was a good. It was like a comedy show. It was a Jazz at Lincoln center, which is a beautiful space with incredible acoustics, which we can discuss later in.

[Joanna Coles]

The story and relevant to the story I know you're going to tell.

[Samantha Bee]

Impeccable, impeccable acoustics. Lots of great performers. Phoebe Robinson was so funny.

[Joanna Coles]

She was very funny. I love Alex Adeline, David Wayne.

[Samantha Bee]

Ken Marino was there. And then, well, Amy Schumer went up, and Amy Schumer was introducing Whoopi Goldberg and Billy Crystal and Zelda Williams. So Robin Williams daughter. And they were just talking about the origins of their participation in Comic Relief and how funny the shows were. They were kind of done as, I guess, telethons when they first started. Right, right. And they were so fun, and I remember them. And so Amy and I would say.

[Joanna Coles]

It was the emotional heart of the evening. Would that be fair?

[Samantha Bee]

The emotional.

[Joanna Coles]

Because I know what you're building up.

[Samantha Bee]

To, the emotional heart of the evening. And just to set the scene so in the front, kind of the front area nearest the stage, there were little cocktail tables set up for, I guess, major donors and co chairs such as yourself. And then you invited me. I got to go. Your son was there. That was so fun. So little cocktail tables with a couple of wine bottles and then some packaged snacks.

[Joanna Coles]

Some packaged snacks.

[Samantha Bee]

Some fun packaged snacks.

[Joanna Coles]

Because the goal was not to waste money on a big din, but to have a live show to keep the audience super engaged.

[Samantha Bee]

So Amy went up, and Amy was really funny and very funny. Very funny. And then she kind of transitioned to the part of her speaking that was the tribute part. And so she was talking about her comedy heroes, you know, Whoopi and Billy Crystal and of course, Robin Williams, now deceased. So tragic. So it was like the heartfelt portion of the evening. And then. And what happened, Joanna, if you can just describe. And then I'll try to I have a package of chips.

[Joanna Coles]

I noticed you bought an accessory with you.

[Samantha Bee]

I did bring an accessory. There were packets of roasted root vegetable chips on the table.

[Joanna Coles]

Can I just say, it's a very chic package.

[Samantha Bee]

Very chic packaging. Delicious chips. That's great. So I want to just describe. And we were at table 12. And then at some point, I'm wearing that.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm wearing right underneath Amy Schumer.

[Samantha Bee]

Underneath Amy. And if you could just. If you could just. So everybody's got these open packets of chips.

[Joanna Coles]

If you.

[Samantha Bee]

If you wouldn't mind just giving. Delivering something heartfelt to me. And I'll just sort of.

[Joanna Coles]

I'll. I won't give.

[Samantha Bee]

Dramatize.

[Joanna Coles]

I want to pay homage to these extraordinarily important comedians who gave me my. So for people who are listening but not watching, Sam is doing what, in fact, one of my guests was doing at the table, which was to suddenly crack open a bag of chips.

[Samantha Bee]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

And start chomping through them. Literally through them, chomping them.

[Samantha Bee]

It was.

[Joanna Coles]

Hence the acoustics.

[Samantha Bee]

Honestly, I felt like I was in a Mr. Bean sketch. I felt like someone was eating chips at my funeral.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Samantha Bee]

It was very funny, and it was so funny. And of course, Amy, just surveying the audience, but she didn't have to look too far because we were sitting right underneath her, said, is somebody fucking eating fucking chips at table 12? And in fact, somebody was.

[Joanna Coles]

Somebody was eating chips.

[Samantha Bee]

You could hear them in the back. I'm sure I have to survey because I knew a couple of people who were sitting further back. I'm going to ask them if they could hear the chips. And I believe they could. It was like an earthquake.

[Joanna Coles]

I think they could. And then she asked us what kind of chips?

[Samantha Bee]

And then you said, they're roasted vegetable chips. And then she did an impression of you and said. What did she say?

[Joanna Coles]

She said, I'm being fucking heckled by Judi Dench.

[Samantha Bee]

By Judy Dench.

[Joanna Coles]

By Dame Judi Dench.

[Samantha Bee]

Dame Judi Dench.

[Joanna Coles]

It was very funny.

[Samantha Bee]

It was very funny. And truly, I'd just like to say.

[Joanna Coles]

That, to point out that I'm such a nice host that I was actually taking the fall for my guest just eating the chips.

[Samantha Bee]

You very kindly took the fall because.

[Joanna Coles]

You went under the table with embarrassment.

[Samantha Bee]

It was incredible. And then your son, who was so sweet, turned to me and he said, was I eating the chips? And I was like, no, no, I think you're good.

[Joanna Coles]

These are good chips.

[Samantha Bee]

They're very good.

[Joanna Coles]

They're very good chips. I will say they were worth breaking into Amy's story for.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, my goodness. I just want to say that I hope, I think that what's going to happen is that on my deathbed, I'm going to think about my family. I'm going to think about my children. I'm going to think about my wonderful husband and the life I've led. And then it is possible that I'm also going to think about when those chips were eaten, when Amy Schumer was talking. That is highly possible.

[Joanna Coles]

I will never do it again. I will never have. I will never have bags of chips on the table again. When we are paying homage to the great Robin Williams, the great and late Robin Williams, Whoopi Goldberg and Billy Crystal, who, I have to say, looked fantastic. Billy looked incredible. Whoopi looked great, too, but Billy just didn't look as old as I thought he would look.

[Samantha Bee]

And Zelda was really funny, too. It was really Zelda.

[Joanna Coles]

Very moving and funny.

[Samantha Bee]

Very moving and funny. It was a great, great evening. It's a great cause they do incredible work and you have provided me with literal hours of amusement. And so I thank you for inviting me to these things. Please don't stop inviting me just because.

[Joanna Coles]

I. I think I have another one for you coming up. I think we're going to go to a mind reading evening.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm dying to know what's in there. Sam, I'm dying to know what's in your mind. I'm gonna prep the guy that he may need extra fortitude.

[Samantha Bee]

He needs to drink two full sugar Coca Colas before he reads our minds.

[Joanna Coles]

He does. He does.

[Samantha Bee]

Fantastic. I'm gonna finish this bag of chips in the break. Hey, this is Paige from Giggly Squad and this episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. It's a season of wonder all the way. At Nordstrom, you'll find the best gifts for everyone. You tons of ideas under $100 and gift experts to help wondering what to wear. They have everything from cozy styles to party perfect looks along with free style help from their stylist. Plus, they'll make your shopping easy with services like in store order pickup, gift wrap options, free shipping and returns. Discover the wonder of the holidays today in stores [e-mail] this holiday season when you can't be there, let 1-800flowers.com deliver at 1-800-FLowers every gift is crafted with care and designed to make spirits bright. From classic holiday bouquets and unique one of a kind designs to gift bundles you can't find anywhere else 1-800-FLowers makes it easy to stay connected no matter the distance. Just a few clicks and your thoughtful gift is on its way. Visit 1-800-flowers.com acast to deliver joy, beauty and celebration this holiday season. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year contracts, they said, what the are you talking about? You insane Hollywood.

[Harry Lambert]

So to recap, we're cutting the price.

[Samantha Bee]

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[Saad Mousseni]

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[Samantha Bee]

And boy was I glad that I had lemonade.

[Saad Mousseni]

I was paid back quickly and efficiently.

[Harry Lambert]

Everyone was so nice.

[Joanna Coles]

Got this pet insurance.

[Samantha Bee]

And get a'[e-mail].

[Saad Mousseni]

Pet.

[Joanna Coles]

Joining us now is Harry Lambert, our special correspondent and editor at the Daily Beast. Breaking down the hot topic with an even hotter subject, Luigi Mangione, the alleged killer of the United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Harry, for listeners not up to speed on this story, can you just give them a quick thumbnail of what actually happened and why a nation was gripped.

[Samantha Bee]

For those not refreshing their Daily Beast feed every three seconds the way that I am to find out what somehow.

[Harry Lambert]

Missed this whole thing.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah.

[Harry Lambert]

Wednesday, December 4, 6, 45am The United Healthcare CEO is gunned down by an unknown assailant who shoots him in the back, somehow then manages to escape completely undiscovered into Central park and out of New York for five days. At the time I was at the Dealbook Summit in New York about six blocks away and there was a kind of ripple through the audience as we found out about this and we actually had a a healthcare CEO on stage who knew the guy who died and spoke about it almost without feeling. I was like, you know this guy and he's just been shot. And that kind of presaged the whole way we all started speaking about this thing, which was the guy who was shot. He was forgotten in our consciousness, I think almost immediately. And now we've got to the point where we've discovered who the killer is. Luigi Mangione, found apprehended in Altoona, Pennsylvania.

[Joanna Coles]

And in a McDonald's.

[Harry Lambert]

Correct, in a McDonald's having gone to A Starbucks anti capitalist criticism at its finest. And the crucial clues in this whole thing, again, if you haven't encountered any of it before, is that at one point he takes down his mask in the hostel he's staying at shortly before the killing. Because he's got to speak to the woman behind the desk, who I think is kind of an unheralded hero here. Right. If she hadn't charmed this guy in some way, then we would never have got a face of him. But he also had these distinctive eyebrows.

[Joanna Coles]

Very distinctive eyebrows. I thought I'd seen those eyebrows walking around Central park on their own, actually. But you're right, the woman at the hostel, I mean, the reports were that she was flirting with him and she said, oh, come on, pull down your mask. And he pulled down his mask. At which point the security cameras caught full face, basically with his cap on, which was the thing that actually led him to be apprehended at the McDonald's in Altoona.

[Harry Lambert]

As a former cop, this made a really good point, which is he was in a bit of a bind at that point because if he refuses to pull down his mask, then he starts seeming like a strange individual. And then she maybe starts getting intrigued by who this guy is who's staying with her. So he was kind of. He kind of had to pull down his mask. But then the eyebrows, I think, was maybe the biggest giveaway because when he's at McDonald's, he's captured while wearing a mask. And so was it the eyebrows that gave him away? These big, thick, bushy things which in an otherwise pretty fine feature face.

[Joanna Coles]

What I loved was the detail of him going to McDonald's and ordering hash browns because he obviously wanted comfort food after he'd been on the run for five days.

[Harry Lambert]

Totally. I mean, I think the whole. The funny thing about this story is it's all very easy to be glib about. And we can get into how the Internet has been, and I'm sure we have been too, watch the actual clip of him shooting the guy yesterday. And after you watch him actually gun him down, it's hard to find it funny anymore. And it's strange that we, we managed to.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it was an explosion of support because the assumption was that he was a Robin Hood type character who'd gone after healthcare, which, you know, we know that medical debt is the single biggest reason for personal bankruptcy in America. There is no love for these companies, which is absolutely, obviously no excuse to murder someone. But there was less sympathy than there would have been were it a Teacher, for example.

[Harry Lambert]

Yeah. Also it's a rich white guy. And I mean, is that relevant? What do you think?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I'm assuming when you were at Dealbook, I mean, I suddenly became conscious of the sort of the new phrase EP executive protection. I'm assuming that was part of the conversation at Dealbook.

[Harry Lambert]

Totally. I mean, but even then it's hard to. If there's a madman who wants to kill you at 6:45am on a manhunter street corner, I think that's very hard for anyone to anticipate. I mean, that's the terror of being in this kind of position of power. Right. But I think.

[Joanna Coles]

And he wasn't a well known executive either. He wasn't like one of these billionaires that takes a stand, like someone like Bill Ackman, for example. He was a very low key, had a low profile, lived in the Midwest. So for him to be shot on a street in New York at that time in the morning with 10 days, what looks like 10 days premeditation seems pretty remarkable.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, the other thing to say is we haven't got into the motive of the whole thing. So to explain that.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, tell us about Luigi. Tell us about his background and why he. Why we think he did this.

[Harry Lambert]

So Luigi is the son of a sort of Baltimore dynasty set up by his grandfather. Big Italian American family, very bright kid, valedictorian, went to Gilman High and private school in the state, goes on to the University of Pennsylvania, Ivy League college. Absolutely. He's a coder, sets up a video game development club, is a sort of earnest and interested individual in all his online postings for a long period of time until he suddenly goes dark on Twitter in the spring of 2023. And he doesn't reappear for nine months. And when he does reappear online within a week, he's recommending on his Goodreads the Unabomber's manifesto and saying it's impossible not to see that most of these predictions about the way we would turn out were right. And he does say, interestingly, given what he goes on to do, that the Unabomber was rightfully imprisoned and there was no excuse for what he did. But you can already see there the glimmers of some sort of development in his thinking.

[Joanna Coles]

That would be alarming as a parent, Sam, if one of your kids posted that.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, I think more alarming is that I would not be in contact with my children for a period of, what was it, six months and he was not really in contact with his family.

[Harry Lambert]

All so Right. So he comes back at the start of the year online and then he's tweeting and then it's only in the last few months of this year that he goes basically dark. But he'd start, his life had started to kind of spiral a little bit. He'd been a coder for a few years at a company called True Car. He lost his job in 2023. Throughout all this time he's had a back injury since, well, the degenerative back condition since he was young. And it gets a lot worse in early 2022. He, he has some sort of surfing accident. He tries to manage it conservatively for about 18 months. Then he has surgery during this period where he's offline. Initially he thinks it's going to go well. It then doesn't go well. And I think that becomes a, the source of a lot of frustration. But it's not just that it was his back and that he was therefore motivated because he'd lost his health insurance or what have you. It was a wider social critique, which is why I think the Unabomber thing is crucial to the whole thing.

[Joanna Coles]

But did, did he lose his insurance because at 26 you come off your parents plan.

[Harry Lambert]

That still hasn't been confirmed. I mean, that's one theory, right, that's going around, but we still don't know that for sure.

[Joanna Coles]

But to what extent is this actually an attack on the health care in this country? Or in fact a schizoid break in, a very distressed young man who needed more support than he in fact got?

[Harry Lambert]

I think it's both of those things. But we know from the short manifesto that he wrote that he said, what would be better than to kill one of the CEO at his own bean count and conference, as he put it. So, and he says again in that manifesto, you know, we're one of the most expensive countries in the world for healthcare, but we're something like 42nd in life expectancy. So there are all these confused ideas like meshing together and why he did this.

[Joanna Coles]

So the other thing that's fascinating about this story, obviously is the response online. And I do, I mean, in a weird way, I think coming off the Menendez brothers, there's a sort of another sort of Robin Hood folklore myth that's grown up around this guy. Talk a little bit about, about that.

[Harry Lambert]

Well, what do you guys think about it? I mean, why do you think that happened?

[Samantha Bee]

I have such complicated feelings going into this because I think it's a horrible story. It's really awful violence Is never the answer. Has it provoked a conversation, like a long needed conversation about people being denied medical coverage, which is like. I mean, the depths that healthcare companies will go to are just, like, bottomless. They're just awful. And people are victimized by them. They are catapulted into bankruptcy for things that in other western countries, like cancer will not bankrupt you in Canada. It will not end your. You don't have to sell your home to cover your cancer care in other developed nations. It's just unheard of and impossible to imagine. I'm not a person who finds the murder amusing in the least. And actually, it has been a really weird. Kind of bifurcated my brain a little bit. How people have found it so amusing and seen him as a Robin Hood figure is. It's actually kind of astonishing to me. As a former comedian, I guess I used to get asked a lot what my red lines were. They were like, how do you know when you've gone too far? And I'm like, well, I know that I don't make jokes about someone getting gunned down in the streets of Manhattan. Like, I really don't. I do think it's funny that he went and ate a bunch of hash browns. Like, there's elements to the story that are silly and fun. And I do think that there is a huge conversation to be had about health care in this country. Do I think that this is going to answer any of the very critical problems that we are facing here? I actually don't. I want to be a person who would hope that all of this conversation would lead to something. I'm too cynical for that. And I do think that one unspoken element of this, to be perfectly honest, is that he's a really attractive young man. And so that's actually a part of why I think it has exploded is because there are, you know, like, photos of his abs that are really, like, captivating to people.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, he does have extraordinary abs.

[Harry Lambert]

One of my friends said, I'll be writing letters to him in Rikers.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah, I did. I was like, how many marriage proposals is he going to get when he is finally sent to prison?

[Harry Lambert]

We kind of love. We all love a story of a man on the run, right? It's just the original crime that's abhorrent.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, we love a story of a man on the run. The manhunt is fascinating. And also, I do think in a weird way, these stories are sort of galvanizing in terms of people craving community. So what you get is people going online with their own theories People talking about it with their own theories. And it's a shared narrative that we have fewer of. As social media is fragmented, what we all talk about together, we don't watch television at the same time anymore. All that sort of water cooler conversation has collapsed. And you can watch television when you want to watch it. We're not watching Bad Sisters, my current favorite show at the moment. At the same time, I don't have enough people to discuss it with because people go, no, no, don't tell me, I haven't watched it. Whereas in the, you know, And I don't want to romanticize the old days, but that sense of, oh my God, did you see that episode? And it becomes something you can coalesce around. And we saw this, we saw it with the election, we saw it with the submersible. And it's always more interesting. Do you remember the submersible? Where you were like, are they alive? Are they not alive? And there are so few stories that galvanize us like that, that this was one of those stories. Plus the fact it was interesting that he slipped the bonds of the NYPD pretty quickly. And then the brilliance, actually of the ability to pull all the CCTV clips together and track his movements. I mean, it's fascinating.

[Samantha Bee]

There is something so sad and basic about the fact that he pulled down his mask in order to flirt. And that was the thing, Human weakness. The thing human weakness. I mean, incredible.

[Harry Lambert]

It's those small moments, right? There's the Day of the Jackal, that book. I remember reading it when I was a kid. And the whole thing hangs on the fact that he misinterpreted the killer, misinterpreted that the politician he's trying to kill is going to kiss twice on the cheeks rather than once because of the difference in cultural norms.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, which is now on television with Eddie Redmayne as an incredibly successful series.

[Harry Lambert]

Exactly. And then obviously Trump just tilts his head at the last moment, like all these tiny inches that the side things.

[Samantha Bee]

It is like. I do feel. I don't know if I'm right about this, but I do feel like the story is changing as we learn more, as people are reading, more information is coming out. I feel like he's going to eventually be less of a Robin Hood figure on kind of more of a tragic like it seems.

[Harry Lambert]

I think the key thing is watching that. You gotta watch him. I didn't initially wanna watch it. You don't wanna watch someone being killed, but it's only once you watch it that you no longer think this is a joke in any way. The other thing, I think, why has it captured our imagination? What did Trump famously say? I could gun down someone on Fifth Avenue and I wouldn't lose any votes. You know, in other words, that's the most extraordinary crime you could commit, is basically what he was saying. The idea like, this is the most public thing you could do.

[Samantha Bee]

I do hope that, like, when the dust settles and when, you know, I don't. It feels even glib to say when the dust settles, but I guess that's the expression that I'm using. I do hope that the conversations about healthcare can continue. I hope that that can change. I want that to change, even though cynically, I don't think that this is quite the catalyst. But I hope that something comes out.

[Harry Lambert]

Wouldn't that be bad in some way? Because then what we'd be saying is, oh, Louisa, you've managed to successfully change the conversation by.

[Samantha Bee]

Everything about it is bad. Every single thing about it is so, so bad.

[Joanna Coles]

I think one of the other things that galvanized people was the fact that he left a trail of clues and we became a nation of detectives, and we were tracking it on social media in real time, which is not usually what happens, happens with a crime. Right?

[Harry Lambert]

Yeah, I think you're right. And also that's. I think there's an interesting media angle on all this. So some people noted that the New York Times had 26 people contribute to their main story on Luigi when we all found out who he was on.

[Joanna Coles]

Monday night, 26 reporters, I think it.

[Harry Lambert]

Was four reporters, 19 contributing reporters, and three researchers.

[Joanna Coles]

I think that might be the size of the Daily Beast, entire newsroom. And we managed to do this with a much smaller crew.

[Harry Lambert]

I think we also. We put our stories out first. But anyway, the other thing to say.

[Samantha Bee]

Is, you got that in there. You got that in there.

[Joanna Coles]

Shout out to Hugh Doctor, our executive editor, for leading a really good effort around this.

[Harry Lambert]

And this is the strange thing about a story like this. You can put 26 reporters onto it, but Twitter has a rapidly declining base of 250 million users. So that was actually the place where you could find stuff. And obviously, the tricky thing was you'd see a thing and it would be sourced and you wouldn't know about it. But a lot of the stuff that did well actually turned out to be true ahead of time, like some random person had spoken to someone.

[Samantha Bee]

I do think it's good that the book that. Well, you know, the book that he was. That he had inscribed, Deny what is The. What is the title of the book?

[Joanna Coles]

Deny, Delay, deny, depose or 3D words?

[Harry Lambert]

It's delay, deny, defend. But he made it Delay, deny, depose.

[Samantha Bee]

Okay. Well, it's good that that book is. It's top of the charts. Feels like a book we should.

[Joanna Coles]

Top of the charts.

[Samantha Bee]

Feels like a book maybe we should all be reading.

[Joanna Coles]

AUTHOR on what's Harry Lampert doing here?

[Harry Lambert]

That's what I'm asking.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, boy.

[Joanna Coles]

Harry, thank you for filling us in. So he got arrested? Well, he got arrested. As he was taken into court, he was shouting something. We don't quite know what he was shouting other than it insults the intelligence of the American people.

[Harry Lambert]

Yeah. As if he was framed or as if he. I mean, there's other strange things that have come out where he said that things have been planted on him. Cash had been planted on him.

[Samantha Bee]

Again, it's seemingly more. It seeming to go down a sadder and sadder path. Not so much a Robin Hood path, but more of a mental illness path.

[Harry Lambert]

I don't understand how this Robin Hood thing started. He wasn't robbing anyone. He's just gunning someone down in the street.

[Joanna Coles]

I think Ryan Murphy is online to the prison cell where he's being held right now, trying to sign up the life rights.

[Samantha Bee]

When this first happened and it was really breaking for me on the Daily Beast website, to be honest, I was like, this is. Not only is the newsroom at the Daily Beast right now. I was like, this story checks every box. But also I was like, ryan Murphy has got to be. He's already written the script. He's casting.

[Joanna Coles]

There's echoes of Andrew Cunanan here. He did that. Do you remember this? Who gunned down Gianni Versace and became. I think he launched the idea of a spree killer, and he was eventually found on a boat. But it's that sort of crucial moment of five days. Feels like the perfect attention span for America to stay fully glued. I think that was actually the time of the submersible being down there. Right. That broke over a week. That keeps everybody gripped. And then suddenly I felt like this morning, everybody woke up and we were like, okay, next. What's on to the next.

[Samantha Bee]

Like, it is not okay to gun people down in the streets.

[Harry Lambert]

Josh Shapiro came up and said that on his press conference. I mean, that's the other angle on this, that, you know, Shapiro was making his bid for the 2028.

[Joanna Coles]

I thought he did a pretty good job, actually. It was moving speech. It was sober, and you could absolutely see 2028 flashing in his eyes.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah, you don't get what you want by being a lawless society.

[Joanna Coles]

So no purge for you?

[Samantha Bee]

No, thank you. I will not be participating in the purge. Harry. Oh.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, Harry. Thank you very much for filling us in.

[Harry Lambert]

So good, so good, so good.

[Samantha Bee]

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[Saad Mousseni]

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[Samantha Bee]

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[Saad Mousseni]

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[Joanna Coles]

We'Re thrilled to be joined by this week. Week's Beast of the week. Saad Moussini, nicknamed the Rupert Murdoch of Afghanistan, if you can believe that. He's the chairman and the CEO of Moby Group, the largest media company in Afghanistan. And he's been widely applauded for bringing a free press to a repressed country which he reflects on in his latest book, radio free a 20 year odyssey for an Independent Voice in Kabul.

[Samantha Bee]

We've wanted to talk to him because he's familiar, very, very familiar with trying to run a media company under a regime that believes the media is the enemy. And I'm just so curious if you want your nickname to be the Rupert Murdoch of Afghanistan.

[Joanna Coles]

I think the first time I met you, someone said, this is the Rupert Murdoch of Afghanistan, which was really a bit of a head fucking.

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, it's probably not fair on Rupert. It's probably not true in any case. But we were in business together. Rupert Murdoch invested in our group. As we expanded beyond Afghanistan, we set up operations for the Persian market, targeting Iran in 2007 or 8 and then Pakistan. We were in India, we were in Africa and the Middle East. So he was a partner, actually, for a long time.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, I want to say just right up front that I enjoying your book so much. I think it's really, really fascinating. We'd love to get just some context. What does governance, what does governance feel like in Afghanistan right now?

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, you have a sort of an authoritarian regime that was fighting the Afghan government and its backers, the international forces, a coalition of mostly Western forces, for 20 odd years. And they prevailed following a deal with the Trump administration in 2020, and they took over and with virtually no experience in governing. But strangely, you know, there are some successes, I think, and I think most Afghans would agree with me that they're less corrupt than the previous government.

[Joanna Coles]

The Taliban is less corrupt. Because if you see it through the eyes of Americans, what we remember, or perhaps this is my ignorance about Afghanistan, which is pretty much 100%, but we saw those terrible images of the Americans pulling out people falling from planes that they were clinging onto to try and leave. And then basically there's been radio silence. So apart from images of the Taliban coming in with guns, and then we hear that women can't go to college, they can't go to school, they have to stay indoors. So it's hard to believe that this is a less corrupt regime than the one that went before. Can you elaborate? Explain?

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, as most things, you know, the situation on the ground is always a lot more nuanced. I mean, one of the reasons, and, you know, people ask me often, why is it that a trillion dollars, 3,000American soldiers losing their lives, thousands more losing their limbs, maybe 80 to 100,000 Afghan soldiers, soldiers losing their lives, that after two decades, this war was lost? And it was mostly, I think, because of a corruption the ineptitude of the state and the fact that we had a democracy, but we had no justice. So people felt it wasn't a just environment. And the Taliban arrived saying, hey, we're here to serve you. So the courts function better. The government, of course, is more attentive to people's needs. The private sector seems to be in a better place than it was before. But of course, the flip side is that the economy shrunk, the international community is disengaged, but then impacts the humanitarian situation on the ground. And the country is very vulnerable. 43 million people, half the population is under the age of 20. Perhaps the youngest country outside of sub Saharan Africa. Median age of 18. And as you pointed out, everyone's forgotten about Afghanistan. So the Taliban, okay, security situation is better because they were doing most of the killing. Both sides were, but the Taliban were.

[Joanna Coles]

So there are fewer people being killed.

[Saad Mousseni]

Yes, and that's obvious. Less corruption. Cultivation of opium has been banned. So that's a positive. But. So there are some positives. But of course, the negatives are really obvious. Like a ban on girls, education beyond sixth grade, trying to curtail what women can do in the workplace. Again, policy and decree wise, it's very hardcore, implementation wise. Taliban leaders are being a lot more pragmatic and we can talk about that. But for example, women are still working for us. Women are still working for NGOs, women are still working for the government in most of the country.

[Joanna Coles]

So talk to us about. You have female anchors reading the news. You had some of them actually interviewing some of the government officials. Are they anxious about their security? Do they have to have security with them? I mean, at least in terms of the messaging we get here. And I appreciate it's more nuanced on the ground, sort of. It feels like it's a police state for women.

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, I think it's sort of a police state for everyone. For women, it's a lot more difficult because. And we can get into why this misogyny with these types of individuals or movements or religious groups. But so women continue to work for us. As a matter of fact, we have three times as many women working in our news department than we did in 2021, because we've been very actively trying to recruit and hire women. But yes, they present the news, they're on the field, they're behind the cameras, in front of the cameras. And I recall my mom telling me that she went to the passport office trying to help a woman get a passport. And then all the women started to stand up and scream at the Taliban guy. He got so scared, he went inside his office and locked himself up. So I think a lot of it comes from sort of, any sort of. They haven't engaged with women for decades, and all of a sudden they have to govern over this country. And half the population is female. So it's, you know, things can improve. I mean, I think the problem for us right now is a sort of crossroad. Things can ease up and they can be more inclusive or they can can go really go hardcore misogynistic.

[Samantha Bee]

I just want to say that as I'm reading the book, you have such a pragmatic approach to your work. You know, it seems like it's such a great example of just playing the hand of cards that you were dealt. And a theme of the book is that engagement with them does not equate with recognition. Can you describe what it is to work with them and to. Because. Because you've had to change. You've had to change the way that you work. Can you kind of talk about the progress of that over time?

[Saad Mousseni]

So we have 400 odd employees across the country, and we just did a survey and assessing how the employees feel. Our female employees are far more optimistic than their male counterparts. They're enthusiastic to come to work. They're excited about it. They do better. And one of our most senior executives who runs Tuva, two of the country's largest radio networks were just recognized by the Emir of Qatar at the Doha forum only, like four days ago. So we have this extraordinary team of individuals, including women, who work in these really difficult conditions.

[Joanna Coles]

But if you're an anchor on Tolo News, are you in danger? If you're a woman, I mean, do you need security to go in and out of the studio?

[Saad Mousseni]

The answer, the quick answer would be no. But at the same time, you know, if they're recognized on the street and some local Taliban official may say, hey, why are you appearing on television? This is un Islamic. You shouldn't be like that. So there's always the risk of that sort of thing happening. But they tend to get home in a car, and so they're relatively safe. They're sort of in their own bubble, you know, in a place like Kabul. 5 to 7 million people live in Kabul and Herat and Mazar now, major cities. Things are okay for women. As a matter of fact, my mom's there right now and. And women walk around, faces uncovered. They go to the shops. Women can drive. I mean, I don't want to give the impression that everything's okay, but it could be worse.

[Joanna Coles]

And what about the Internet in terms of how much access do people have to it?

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, the numbers range from say 10 million to 15 million people. It's not a lot of people, mostly because it's expensive. For example, our education programs. People can access the Internet now at zero cost, so it's being subsidized. But television and radio are still probably the best means of delivering content to families. It's a bit like the 1950s in the US people have single TV households, people have a radio set and you can power these things up using a car, batteries. People are very pragmatic in terms of how they deal with things on a day to day basis. But people, you know, the country is a changed country from 20 years ago. The genies out of the bottle, you can't put it back in. People have been exposed to the international community, they've looked at programs, they get news from the outside, they know what's going on.

[Samantha Bee]

How do you know in the line of work that you do? How do you know when you're coming up against the line and how do you navigate that when you have the Taliban in your ear? How do you know how much to push back?

[Saad Mousseni]

I guess by nature you push back. You always push the envelope. You can't help yourself as a media person. You know, we're always like, we're always going just over the line and we get admonished for these things quite often. And I think the first chapter of the book is about an incident that then, you know, the Taliban raided our offices and took our guys in. It's, you know, we leave it up to the guys on the ground, but it's by nature, they're kids in their 20s, most of them. The average age is probably in the mid-20s. So they, but they, they have not neglected their duties as journalists, as content providers. You know, they're told you can't air music, so you know, music is off.

[Joanna Coles]

Because music's been banned by the Taliban?

[Saad Mousseni]

Music's been banned, yes.

[Joanna Coles]

And does that mean it's literally been banned and you don't hear music in Afghanistan or do you hear music? But to your earlier point, it's not, the ban is not enforced.

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, and if you go to, you know, in Kabul, around the city, people have music on, they get vi satellite, they listen to CDs or, you know, they may have Spotify or Apple music. Some people do. So yes, music. I mean, how could you not have music? So people do, can, can access music and everything's Available.

[Joanna Coles]

I understand it's more nuanced when you get there on the ground, but is the Taliban just performing? I mean, they're saying one thing, but in fact people are just getting on with their lives. And it's not as strict as it sounds like it is to us because I'm still finding it hard to reconcile women unable to go to school or get education post grade six with you having female anchors who are fine to carry on reading the news.

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, again, it's listen, the situation is not, is not that bad in some parts of the country. But in other parts it's totally opposed. Like in a small village or in a city that's conservative, it's imposed 100%. You won't be able. If you listen to music and a guy stops your car, he'll probably whip you. But in the major cities, they'll probably.

[Joanna Coles]

Whip you for listening to music.

[Saad Mousseni]

Absolutely. But in Kabul, for example, or in other parts of the country where the man in charge or the men in charge are more pragmatic, they have a very laissez faire approach to this. So for some people it's serious in terms of the imposition of these decrees, but some of the others are more pragmatic. So for example, if you look at Jelani in Syria, for example, he's very similar to some of the more pragmatic.

[Joanna Coles]

Taliban, who's the new rebel leader who's just taken over in Syria, who by.

[Saad Mousseni]

The way, interestingly enough, has taken the Taliban playbook in terms of winning hearts and minds and all of that, in terms of how you convince people not to fight them. It's been pretty much a cut and paste of what the Taliban did in 2020, 2021. But some of these folks in Kabul, some of these Taliban, so the so called pragmatic leaders are very frustrated with the leadership's hardcore approach to girls education and women in the workforce. So I think we're going to. There is a tug of war between these different forces. And it's not a monolithic movement. You know, you do have individuals with different degrees of conservatism and how they interpret Islam. And some of them are just there for power. I mean, you know, you're dealing with politicians, right?

[Joanna Coles]

So they're expedient.

[Saad Mousseni]

Yes. So we're in a very interesting place right now, especially what's happening in Syria, because I think a lot of the Taliban are looking at Syria and they will think, wow, if this guy can come back in and he gets the sanctions lifted and then there's a Bounty on his head. Well, maybe the same thing can happen to us. It could perhaps inspire the Taliban also to make changes in the way that they govern.

[Samantha Bee]

But do you think that your work is making meaningful change within the Taliban? Are you contributing to that kind of like push and pull within the organization? Organization?

[Saad Mousseni]

I hope so. It's upon us as Afghans to push all sides. You know, we've done like, I've lost count, 1,500 2,000 stories on girls education and why it should be permissible under the Taliban rule. So we're very sort of provocative. But we do it by not interviewing some PhD from NYU. We do it by interviewing people from within the Taliban ranks or individuals who are responsible respect by the Taliban because we have to make these changes from within. And it's upon us as Afghans to push for these changes. We're now tutoring a group of girls using WhatsApp. So they go to WhatsApp and ask questions.

[Joanna Coles]

And there's a group and that's not.

[Saad Mousseni]

Illegal because, you know, what we teach reflects the curriculum. So it's the maths that they would learn at school. Right. So now we're trying to integrate AI into these sort of, are sort of WhatsApp chat groups. So whether, you know, there is a sort of a chat box that's responsive that can deal with their questions. The girls do better. Actually, the girls who don't go to school tend to do better than the boys who go to school, weirdly because they've retained enough information. But the girls who also get tutored on this WhatsApp group can also pass on what they're learning to their brothers within each household. So, and unicef, you know, we work with UNICEF on this, are just, you know, I mean, for them it's an extraordinary result.

[Joanna Coles]

But is there a sort of situation where people are doing this in hiding? I mean, if girls education has been banned, if you can get whipped for listening to music, if you're caught learning math and you're a 14 year old girl on WhatsApp, what is the consequence?

[Saad Mousseni]

For now it seems it's okay. But again, everything I have to end with for now. By the way, this is no substitute for a school. You know, you go to school for a whole bunch of other reasons besides learning. You know, you interact with other kids, you play. I mean, these kids must be going through hell. These girls are stuck inside the house. It is a human rights violation to deprive children of not being able to go to school or banning women from working. I mean, women for now can work, but we don't know.

[Joanna Coles]

When I first met you talked about having taken the former of American Idol to Afghanistan. Can you just tell us a little bit about how popular it became?

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, it was enormously popular because it's, you know, these, I mean, one thing. And we've been, you know, operating across the world, you know, in Africa and the Middle east and so forth. It's how similar we are. You know, we react to similar things. That's why a format, if it does well in the US Will do well in Africa. So we took. We basically created this format which is like an idle form, man.

[Joanna Coles]

Was it called Kabul Idol? What was it called?

[Saad Mousseni]

It was called Afghan Star.

[Joanna Coles]

Afghan Star, that's right.

[Saad Mousseni]

And you know, initially it was. It was almost like a comedy because people just were. I mean, they had a lot of things, but talent wasn't one of them.

[Samantha Bee]

I feel like I want. I think I watched a lot of. I think I watched a lot of.

[Saad Mousseni]

Episodes but eventually got better. Right. And they could perform and. But initially the first couple of seasons were actually quite interesting to say the least. And. But they had confidence, I have to say that.

[Joanna Coles]

And were they singing western songs or Afghani songs or both, right?

[Saad Mousseni]

Both. I mean, initially it was like, you know, taking an Indian song or sometimes even a western song. But eventually, you know, it was like their own compositions or singing famous, other famous Afghan songs. But it was phenomenally. It was, it was, it was one of our most successful stories. It really engaged the nation and millions of people used to vote using a. In the early days, it was texting and eventually was online. But it captivated an entire country in terms of who would win. And it was, you know, it was very, very stressful for a lot of people, you know, to wait for the results. Now those. We can't do those sorts of programs, but people continue to perform and make videos from outside the country and sometimes from inside the country. And this stuff sits on different platforms like YouTube and satellite television networks. They have a satellite dish, they have a mobile phone, they have a laptop. So they're able to, you know, get any content they want and it's all available.

[Samantha Bee]

What would you want people to know about Afghanistan that you feel here that we really don't understand?

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, right now people are just have zero interest in Afghanistan because it was in the headlines for such a long time and people see it as a complete failure. And I think the nation building bit of it may have not been an entire success. And of course, a lot of people feel, what do we do in the 20 years we were in Afghanistan, all that money spent. But I think it was transformative for the people of Afghanistan. Our literacy rates were like 25 or 30% today, something like 75, 80% of younger people are literate. Life expectancy went up by 50%. Child mortality dropped significantly. The infrastructure was built. So the Taliban, Wheatley inherited this, really. So the relatively speaking developed country with a proper bureaucracy and roads and everything else. So one of the reasons why we would like for the world to not disengage is because in order to sustain those gains, let's not forget about the people of the country. Now, of course, you don't want the Taliban to get recognized until they deal with issues like inclusivity. You can't just not allow other people, people to be involved in the governing process or not allow women to work or to go to school or to go to university. So those things need to be addressed. But I think the baby steps are that, you know, we sit with them, you talk to them, you talk to the more pragmatic once you encourage them to move against, you know, the more conservative brethren of theirs. And, you know, I mean, I'm not sure sometimes, I mean, I ask myself the same question as how do we best achieve? But I'm pretty confident that disengaging is not the right way.

[Samantha Bee]

So engagement, baby steps. Baby steps. Engagement, yeah.

[Saad Mousseni]

But the world is engaging anyway, right? You have to fly aid into the country. You have to talk to the Taliban, you distribute it. You have to engage with the Taliban to address human rights issues. You have to engage in it, but bring the. You know, you should have a framework of sorts through which you engage. I think that's the best way of putting it.

[Samantha Bee]

Right, right, right. Right. Wow, this is so interesting.

[Joanna Coles]

It is interesting. So give us five minutes on what you predict for Syria. Inasmuch as. Simple question, but inasmuch as you have a very different vantage point than we do.

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, Syria is an enormously important country for the Middle east, population of 25 million. It sits in a really important location in the Levant. And Syria has been ruled by one family for over five decades. It was a very nasty regime. And it was basically. You talk about lack of inclusivity. It was a regime made up of a small religious sect that governed over a country that. And brutally. And there was a revolution of sorts in 2011. It failed, but the country ended up totally fragmented, probably two. Was it three weeks ago that there was a move from one of the rebel groups, HTS to capture Aleppo. They succeeded and the rest, I mean, it just basically was a house of cards. It just completely fell. And you can go into why that happened and why now.

[Joanna Coles]

Were you surprised by it happening?

[Saad Mousseni]

No, I wasn't surprised because when the. Because the Iranians strategically took an interest in both Syria and Lebanon in the 1980s, they felt that they needed to create this sort of axis of resistance to be able to have leverage against Israel and Western powers. So they worked very closely with the Assad regime, and they armed and funded and trained Hezbollah in Lebanon. But, you know, but since October 7th, and the way that the Israelis and perhaps the Americans hit back at Hezbollah, and of course, Hamas and Hamas inside Palestine, but Hezbollah in particular, and the Assad regime was weakened as well, because I think that they did target facilities and so forth inside of Syria, including assassinating Iranian Revolutionary Guard generals. But the other bit which is important is that Russia is distracted in Ukraine, and they didn't have the capacity to fight too major wars. And it just was the perfect storm. And it allowed the rebels. And I think the Turks played an important role. For the Turks, this is the ascendancy of the Turkish Republic. This is perhaps their most important when in the region. So the vacuum left by the Russians and the Iranians, to an extent, they made the most of it. And they backed and encouraged these rebels to take over the rest of the country, which they did. I think even the Turks are surprised. I was actually, actually the Doha agreement, just by chance, the Turkish foreign minister, the Qatari foreign minister, the Iranian foreign minister, the Russian foreign minister, were all there for the conference, and this thing happened. So all of a sudden, all the forums are getting canceled. They're going into, like, private rooms to discuss the war. And then the Saudis and the Egyptians showed up as well. I don't think the Turks realized how quickly this whole thing would fall apart. So they're in a prime position. But as to what happens next, I'm not too sure. HTS is a rebranded Islamist group that has a history, has had a history with Al Qaeda and this charismatic leader, Jelani, who has emerged as a sort of savior of Syria. The jury's out as to how conservative or how liberal he'll be. He's making all the right signals and is giving the impression he's going to be inclusive for now. Let's see.

[Samantha Bee]

Right. How are you covering it on your news network?

[Saad Mousseni]

Well, for us, it's really important because the Taliban were doing handstands when they emerged victorious. But I think it's also an important lesson because if we can exhibit. Hey, they're here. But they're allowing women to go about their business. They don't have to, like, cover up their faces that they're inclusive. They're allowing others, Christians and other minorities to part. Be part of this governing body. There's a lesson for the Taliban. I said last year that what's happened in Gaza will be perhaps one of the most consequential events of our lifetime. Now, how it's going to unfold, we're not quite sure if it's going to be good or bad. Even in Syria, we're not quite sure how it's going to actually end up for the Syrians and for the neighborhood.

[Joanna Coles]

And what happens to Assad now? He's fled to Moscow where he's been given asylum. But what happens to him?

[Saad Mousseni]

I would suspect he's protected. He'll be, you know, living his life in Moscow. And probably he'll open up an eye clinic.

[Samantha Bee]

That's right. And that's right. Always forget.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, he's got to keep a lot of Louis Vuitton.

[Saad Mousseni]

Apparently, in Aleppo, they captured, like, a photo album of his, and there's some topless pictures of him, not naked, but, you know, he's wearing swimming pools.

[Joanna Coles]

I saw those pictures. He's wearing briefs.

[Saad Mousseni]

You cannot unsee them.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it's fascinating time. I find it interesting because so much discussion here was America's eye is off the ball, China's going to go into Taiwan, the world order will change. And I feel like there was. It was not expected, certainly by Army Jaw, certainly wasn't covered what would happen in Syria. And as fast as it did, these things always happen much faster. As you say, it was a house of cards and the thing collapses and people didn't anticipate it.

[Saad Mousseni]

But the Trump administration has made it very clear that we don't want to be involved. Trump didn't tweet that social media thing.

[Joanna Coles]

Whatever it's called, his platform, truth Social. And then Elon's his ex.

[Saad Mousseni]

Yeah, he truth socialed it that he doesn't want to be involved. The problem is that leaders always face things they don't expect. Right. So does he have the temperament? Does he have a team that can deal with multiple crises?

[Samantha Bee]

I believe that I can answer that question. The answer is no. He does not have a team who can deal with that in the moment.

[Saad Mousseni]

I think what's interesting about Trump is that he's unpredictable, and that's a good thing for now. But also there's some predictability that you want to be able to predict certain things and international affairs. But I think there'll be lots of other crises that he may not have the ability to deal with.

[Samantha Bee]

He will not have the ability. He's a little bit loosey goosey.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, he's also 78 years old policy front.

[Saad Mousseni]

But the other thing is that people have this nostalgia about strong men. And let me tell you, from someone who's, you know, who's dealt with strong men, it's not the answer.

[Samantha Bee]

Yes, we have a lot of macho men all over the world making bad.

[Joanna Coles]

Decisions wrong and strong. As Bill Clinton says, they'll vote for wrong and strong every time. Saad, thank you so much for coming in and talking to us.

[Samantha Bee]

This was really, really interesting and I encourage everybody to purchase and read your book because it's wonderful.

[Saad Mousseni]

Thank you.

[Joanna Coles]

If you have been thank you for listening and if you enjoyed this episode, please, like subscribe and share it with.

[Samantha Bee]

Everyone you know and send us an email at beastpod the dailybeast.com we have gotten hundreds of wonderful notes from our listeners, so keep them coming.

[Joanna Coles]

We really need to go through some of them in next week's episode. I think we should do that.

[Samantha Bee]

Yes, it's time to start giving people their due.

[Joanna Coles]

Yep. And if you're not yet a subscriber to the Daily Beast, what are you thinking? It's easy to be one. Just go to thedailybeast.com membership/podcast.

[Samantha Bee]

As my muse once said, be best, everyone.

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Love chips in a sandwich. The Daily Beast podcast is produced by Sarah Demonkoffs via Baron Reinstein, Jesse Cannon, and Seamus Calder. Additional writing by Sasha Seinfeld and edited by Deanna Chapman and engineered by Cameron Shanken.

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