The Reason Why Trump Keeps Getting Worse: Wolff

Summary

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Inside Trump’s Head: The Reason Why Trump Keeps Getting Worse (July 8, 2026)

Hosts: Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles
Podcast: Inside Trump’s Head, The Daily Beast

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into how Donald Trump’s character continues to define—and deform—the political and cultural landscape. Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles bring their signature mix of candor, humor, and insider knowledge to dissect Trump’s actions, motivations, and the growing normalization of his brand of corruption and grift. They assess current political scandals, Trump’s personal psychology, and what his continued influence reveals about America’s relationship with power, scandal, and moral outrage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ever-Expanding Trump “Grift” and Public Inurement

• Wolff kicks off with the persistent “Trump Grift,” noting its acceleration and normalization:
  • Quote: “The Trump Grift, which is now 10 years running, getting worse and worse and worse and more lucrative and more lucrative for him. And we are inured.” (00:58)
• The hosts reflect on American society’s numbing to Trump’s transparent opportunism.
  • Wolff: “If you like Donald Trump, then you have to like the grift, because they go part and parcel with the man.” (01:05)
  • Coles: “He says people don’t care. But I’m interested to know if we care, right?” (01:31)

2. Character Study: What Drives Trump’s Decisions?

• Wolff explains his approach as a biographer: Trump is an instinctive "government of one":
  • Wolff: “He does things independent of even the people around him… It is all instinctual. It is all mercurial. It’s like a performer.” (03:14)
• Trump’s performative, audience-dependent nature distinguishes him from other politicians.
• Joanna relates the week’s FIFA/Belgium/US sports controversy as a perfect Trumpian intrusion:
  • Trump inserted himself to overturn a US player’s red card, relishing the chaos and the spotlight. (04:20–05:39)

3. Trump and the World of Sports: Power, Ego, and Masculinity

• Wolff shares a revealing anecdote about Trump advising Patriots owner Bob Kraft during his sex scandal—highlighting Trump’s affinity for the power games of sports ownership and the “boys helping boys” dynamic:
  • Wolff: “He likes to be reaching down, making decisions, overruling everyone else. For him, it’s a power move.” (06:20)
  • Trump's network (Dana White, Bob Kraft) consists of other 'outsized' sports/business figures. (10:01)
• The duo jokes about Trump's fantasy of ultimate control and status within elite male clubs.

4. Scandals, Accountability, and the Teflon Effect

a. Graham Platner Scandal

• The breaking Democratic scandal (Graham Platner’s rape accusation) is examined along with the strategic risk calculus for Democrats:
  • Coles: “It’s too risky a seat. And what’s at stake is too much for the Democrats to take the risk on.” (12:25)
  • Wolff notes Trump’s internal conflict—delighting in a Democratic opponent’s fall, but instinctively siding with men accused of sexual abuse.

b. Trump’s Own Scandal Immunity

• The contrast between Trump's “Teflon” resilience and most politicians’ collapse under similar allegations is explored.
  • Wolff: “He didn’t go away. When faced with this and the grab ‘em by the pussy moment…the fact that he was then elected is what gave him the Teflon coating.” (14:53)
  • Coles: “Never complain, never explain.” (15:48)
• Wolff suggests the modern scandal playbook began with Bill Clinton, but Trump took it to another level—exposing the limits of public outrage.

5. Meme Coins, Legal Scams, and the Shameless Grift

a. Trump Meme Coin Debacle

• Discussion turns to the Trump meme coin, with $4 billion lost by 900,000 investors—while Trump personally profited enormously:
  • Coles: “I wrote down 1.4 billion. And on his meme coin alone, I think he made 600 million.” (23:26)
  • Wolff: “Who are these people who would invest alongside Donald Trump? …Of course, Donald Trump—the house is gonna win.” (23:58)
• Both hosts express incredulity at the public’s acceptance and rationalizations.

b. The Public’s Relationship to Corruption

• The normalization of Trump’s corruption is dissected—along with the broader cynicism toward politicians:
  • Coles: “Do you also think all politicians are corrupt? At least Donald Trump is successful and corrupt.” (27:29)
  • Wolff: “If you like Donald Trump, then you have to like the grift, because they go part and parcel with the man. He’s a businessman. Of course he’s going to take advantage of every opportunity…” (26:14, repeated theme)
• Michael observes society’s inability to “call the country to moral attention.” (28:53)

6. International Comparisons: Farage, Europe, and Political Outrage

• They examine Nigel Farage’s mini-scandal in the UK, comparing British levels of outrage to America’s:
  • Farage takes a $5 million gift and resigns to stand again, testing voters’ tolerance for grift. (31:20)
  • Wolff draws a connection to modern "character politics"—it’s about the person more than the issue:
    • “It’s about the new political man.” (32:20)

7. Looks, Charisma, and the Rise of a New Political Archetype

• Wolff posits a trend among successful insurgent politicians—they’re all “good looking” and charismatic:
  • Wolff: “They’re all good looking.” (33:37)
  • Coles: “It helps if you’re attractive. It really helps if you’re attractive.” (34:51)
  • AOC, Abdul Al-Sayed, and international examples like Giorgia Meloni are cited.

8. Trump, NATO, and the Erosion of Global Norms

• The deteriorating US-Europe relationship is unpacked. Trump’s disdain for shared leadership and craving for center stage disrupts decades-long alliances:
  • Wolff: “He needs to be… I’m the center of attention of NATO because I’m going to ruin it or I’m going to make these demands on it.” (39:40)
  • Wolff and Coles reflect on the risk that NATO—and postwar peace—may not survive in its current form.

9. Iran: War, Regime, and Uncertain Outcomes

• The aftermath of hostilities in Iran reveals conflicting international analyses and Trump’s profound disinterest in (and misunderstanding of) complex realities:
  • Coles: “We don’t have any idea what's going on there.” (44:12)
  • Wolff: “Nothing of importance has changed from before the war till after the war…” (45:58)

10. “Story Time with the Second Lady” & Trump’s Relationship to Reading

• With mock glee, Coles recaps the president’s performance on “Story Time with the Second Lady” podcast for children, meant to humanize him (with hilarious results).
  • Trump admits: “I end up reading mostly newspapers. I usually read stories about myself.” (48:38)
  • Wolff recounts trying to get Trump to name his favorite book. Trump scrambles and says: “All Quiet on the Western Front.” (49:58)
• Trump “reads” a White House picture book about presidential leisure to kids, but focuses insultingly on Obama’s basketball skills and fantasizes about a gathering of ex-presidents watching a football game. (50:45)

11. Trump’s Presence: Physicality and Intimidation

• Wolff reflects on Trump’s imposing size and aura, particularly when encountered in person:
  • “He’s a 300 pound guy… you have no idea what it is, the sense of his massiveness when you’re with him. I mean, it’s daunting, right?” (57:11)

12. Michael Wolff’s Legal Battle with Melania Trump

• Wolff updates listeners on his ongoing legal case against Melania, noting the drawn-out, expensive strategy used to exhaust him:
  • Coles: “This is like John Dice and Jarn Dice in Dickens, Bleak House, where…they all run out of money.” (59:35)
  • The opposition’s legal team is using clips from this very podcast against Wolff in court. (60:16)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Trump’s transparency and public indifference:

  • “Remember, the other thing about Donald Trump, extraordinary thing is, he’s transparent because he says people don’t care. And he has specifically said that no one cares.” — Michael Wolff (28:18)

• On scandal and politics:

  • “The two most successful politicians of our era… are Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, each accused, each surrounded by such scandal…” — Michael Wolff (20:23)

• On meme coin grift:

  • “It’s so shameless. It’s just extraordinary, this grift. And it’s the President doing it.” — Joanna Coles (24:00)

• On new political archetypes:

  • “They’re all good looking… Politicians look like politicians. They’re not movie stars…” — Michael Wolff (33:37)

• On the US-Europe schism:

  • “NATO probably won’t survive this, certainly not in the form that we have known it…” — Michael Wolff (39:11)

• On Trump’s book habits:

  • “I end up reading mostly newspapers. I usually read stories about myself.” — Donald Trump on “Story Time with the Second Lady” (48:38)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening & Trump Grift Discussion | 00:58 – 03:14
• Dissecting Trump’s Instinct & Personality | 03:14 – 04:20
• FIFA/US Team/Belgium Scandal | 04:20 – 06:14
• Trump & Sports Power Plays | 06:14 – 10:12
• Graham Platner Scandal/Scandal Immunity | 11:43 – 16:39
• On Scandal, Clinton, and Trump’s ‘Teflon’ | 16:39 – 21:58
• Trump Meme Coin Grift | 22:46 – 26:37
• Society’s Moral Inurement | 26:37 – 30:02
• International Comparison: Farage/UK | 30:28 – 33:05
• New Political ‘Good Looking’ Archetype | 33:05 – 36:12
• Trump, NATO, and US-Europe Fracture | 37:14 – 39:48
• Iran Discussion | 41:08 – 46:52
• “Story Time with the Second Lady” Recap | 47:24 – 53:20
• Trump’s Physical Intimidation | 57:04 – 57:56
• Wolff’s Ongoing Legal Battle | 58:10 – 60:16

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Wry, bemused, at times darkly comic. Wolff and Coles maintain intellectual curiosity and dry wit throughout.
• They are candid about both their outrage and their resignation in the face of repeated Trump chaos and grift.

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Summary

This episode peels back the layers of Trumpian America: how character both defines destiny and underlines the degradation of standards in politics, scandal, and public morality. From international grifts to personal stories of power jockeying, through examples both petty and profound, Wolff and Coles explore a world where outrage fatigues, scandal is currency, and being “shameless” is the new American virtue. Whether parsing Graham Platner, meme coins, Iranian funerals, or a surreal children’s podcast, they anchor their analysis in the reality that Trump isn’t just a uniquely disruptive figure—he’s a symptom of a deeper transformation in expectations of leadership and the boundaries of public decency.

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For listeners and non-listeners alike, this episode is both a scathing diagnosis and a window into the unprecedented normalization of Trump’s template for power, scandal, and survival.

Transcript

[Michael Wolfe]

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[Michael Wolfe]

Tennessee 2012 they have not at any point of the Trump. The Trump Grift, which is now 10 years running, getting worse and worse and worse and more lucrative and more lucrative for him. And we are inured. I think if you like Donald Trump, then you have to like the grift because they go part and parcel with the man. He's a businessman. Of course he's gonna take advantage of every opportunity that comes his way. Remember the other thing about Donald Trump, Extraordinary thing is he's transparent.

[Joanna Coles]

Cause he says people don't care. But I'm interesting to know if we care. Right?

[Michael Wolfe]

He has specifically said and no one cares. How do we call the country to moral attention? We don't know how to do that.

[Joanna Coles]

Michael.

[Michael Wolfe]

Joanna.

[Joanna Coles]

For those of you who haven't watched this podcast before, I'm Joanna Coles of the Daily Beast.

[Michael Wolfe]

And I'm Michael Wolfe. Not of the Daily Beast.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, you're sort of of the Daily Beast.

[Michael Wolfe]

A visitor to the Daily Beast.

[Joanna Coles]

A partner of the Daily Beast.

[Michael Wolfe]

Partner.

[Joanna Coles]

Author of four books on Donald Trump

[Michael Wolfe]

and other books on other people.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, but nobody as interesting as Donald Trump. We have so much to get to. Graham Platner Belgium overturn this. What a great trolley. We've got the president on Usha Vance's podcast. I will be doing a deep textual analysis of that conversation. So we should just. For new people joining the podcast, we should just take 30 seconds to a, ask them to subscribe, and B, explain what we're doing here.

[Michael Wolfe]

We are doing something that I think virtually no one else does, because no one else has. For the 10 years people like me and Joanna and the media everywhere have been covering Donald Trump, it is from the outside looking in. Here's a guy, why does he do what he does? Aghast everybody when he does what he does.

[Joanna Coles]

Permanently outraged. We are permanently outraged.

[Michael Wolfe]

And our method, and I've been doing this through four books, is to think of this guy as single. I mean, he's not part of a political process. He's not like any politician. He does things independent of even the people around him, of his advisors. And it all comes down, A, that this is a government of one, and this is a government of one which is motivated by whatever is motivating him at any given moment. And that often has no logic, no purpose, no gain for him even. And. And it is all instinctual. It is all mercurial. It is like a performer. He's responding at any given moment to his audience. And actually, sometimes he's not responding to his audience. He's just responding to whatever somehow got inside his head. And that's our challenge to go into that head.

[Joanna Coles]

So there's so much to poke around in today. What is inside his head over the spectacular Belgium win and the knockout of the US Team after last night. We're recording this on Tuesday morning. As we know, he called Gianni Infantino, the head of FIFA, several times to get him to overturn the red card that the referee had given to one of the U.S. players, Balogun. And he was supposed to be out of last night's game. Trump intervened. They quoted Article 27 as if it was the UN or something, which allows you to overturn a referee's decision. They rescinded the red card. Out went Balogun onto the field, and Belgium, having appealed the decision and that FIFA said, well, we're not overTurning the decision now won decisively 4:1. I mean, it was an extraordinary game, and it was as if the US Were defeated before they even got on the pitch. And I can't help wondering if they just didn't want to be the center of all that attention.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, I can tell you who does want to be the center of all that attention, and that's Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

And does he care about that? The US Team was defeated, you know, Just. Yeah, sure, in a pat only in a passing sense. I mean, Trump, Trump is a sports guy. Matter of fact, maybe more than anything else. Maybe more than a real estate guy. He's a sports guy. That's what he likes. And he likes to be the guy. He likes to be the. The manager, the team owner, and he likes to be reaching down, making decisions, overruling everyone else. He likes. It is, for him a power move.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Has he ever owned a sports team?

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah, yeah, he owned the soccer team in.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, that's right.

[Michael Wolfe]

In New York.

[Joanna Coles]

Right? Yes, he did, didn't he? And that was a sort of.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yes. And he likes rich guys who own teams. As a matter of fact. I have a story. I have a story.

[Joanna Coles]

Go ahead.

[Michael Wolfe]

And this is that kind of thing. If he has Uber control over moving the pieces, the sports pieces around. So this would be in the first administration. His friend Bob Kraft, who owns the Patriots, the New England Patriots, is in trouble because he's been busted for frequenting Korean massage parks, parlors in Palm Beach. And it's not a good moment for Bob. He has legal difficulties. But even more importantly and more threatening to Bob is that he has difficulties with the NFL. Roger Goodell is threatening.

[Joanna Coles]

He's head of the NFL. Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

Is threatening whatever a commissioner can threaten sanctions or removing you from team ownership. Just. That's his.

[Joanna Coles]

Over the sex scandal.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yes. I mean, this was a major moment.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, I remember because it was a sort of strip mall thing, wasn't it? And everybody was like, why does a guy who's so wealthy have to go to a strip mall for sex?

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah. No, and just in the background, remember of Jeffrey Epstein in West Palm beach, and Jeffrey Epstein saying, you know, Bob Kraft gets takeout and I get take in. At any rate. So his friend Bob Kraft's friend, Donald Trump is on the phone with him. Donald Trump, the President of the United States.

[Joanna Coles]

So this is Trump 1.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yes. And Donald Trump is advising him on his. How to handle a sex scandal.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

He's experienced some experience. And. And Kraft says, yeah, yeah, no, I think we got at my lawyers, this, that, the other thing. But you know, what I'm really worried about is the NFL and Roger and what he's going to do. And Trump says, don't worry about Roger. I'll take care of him.

[Joanna Coles]

And what happens?

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, nothing happened. So he went on, and he still is. He is. Bob Kraft has been. Has returned to being a respected member of the billionaire community.

[Joanna Coles]

And he married a shrink. Right? He married a shrink much younger than him. And they live happily in the summer in the Hamptons because from time to time, I get invitations to go to his house.

[Michael Wolfe]

Okay, well, there you go. But in this conversation, actually, no one else knows about this conversation except the. The principles to it and me, because there were several other people on the phone and having this discussion about Bob Kraft and his problems, and one of them shared this with me.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, well, that is an interesting story, but it's boys helping out boys. Right?

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, and even beyond, of course, it's billionaires helping out billionaires.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

But even more importantly, it's Donald Trump in this sports mix. You know, that's. You know, Dana White is his. One of his close friends.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah.

[Michael Wolfe]

You know, that's. He comes alive in this. In this thing. It really is what he would. Would have probably in. In. In another life preferred to be doing.

[Joanna Coles]

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[Michael Wolfe]

Let's do.

[Joanna Coles]

This is not good news. He's gonna have to step aside. What is Trump thinking about this? Because Trump is gonna enjoy this. Trump is very much gonna enjoy this, I think.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, let's go. I think you should eat a little more crow here.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I was excited about Graham Platner's candidacy. I thought he seemed energetic, exciting, authentic. Yes. There was stuff in his past, but he seemed to have addressed it. This is. Yeah, this is kind of hall of fame. Well, you didn't know that he was gonna be accused of rape by an

[Michael Wolfe]

ex girlfriend, but I did not see his path as straightforward.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. And it's too risky a seat. And what's at stake is too much for the Democrats to take the risk on.

[Michael Wolfe]

So a couple of things I Think it's interesting what's in Trump's head. Cause he's gonna be conflicted about this. I mean, he likes having a. Any Democrat damaged, and this is damaging, and this may help him hold. Hold the Senate.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

On. On the other hand, he is always on the side of anyone. Of any man accused of sexual abuse in almost any shape or form. So he's gonna be maybe on the phone with Graham Platner giving him.

[Joanna Coles]

No, I'm sure he is giving him advice. It's a horrible accusation, too. You know, he turns up drunk in the night, or, you know, she lets him in, and then he's just intoxicated and determined.

[Michael Wolfe]

No, no, totally. Well, but. And then let's balance this against everything. And this is, I mean, an interesting perspective. Everything that Trump has been accused of, which is actually vastly more than this, he's been. Courts have found him guilty of. Of.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and the numbers of women who've come out with almost identical stories when he's 28 at this point, you know, serial accused sexual abuser. Court found for E. Jean Carroll. But that's not the situation Graham Platner's in. And this was a hasty, you know, it was a hasty rush to get him in.

[Michael Wolfe]

What do you mean? Just clarify that. You mean that's not the situation Graham Plattner is in? It sounds actually very close to the situation Graham Plattner is. Although there aren't 28 women.

[Joanna Coles]

I just mean that Graham Platner is.

[Michael Wolfe]

That there are a handful of women, certainly.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. I guess what I meant was that Graham Platner wasn't a celebrity, that Trump has a sort of. Molly, has a sort of Teflon exterior. It turns out Graham Platner doesn't have.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, we didn't know that. You know, I mean, that's an interesting. And that's a question I'm going to ask you. But we didn't know that, you know, Trump. Trump's Teflon exterior is. Because he, you know, he didn't go away. He didn't. He didn't. When faced with this. And the grab them by the pussy moment.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

You know, that was a. That was the nadir of his campaign. The Republican National Committee came and said, you have to withdraw from the race, and he didn't. And that's what. The fact that he was then elected is what gave him the Teflon coding. But he had to get elected first.

[Joanna Coles]

So Melania said, oh, it's locker room talk. Locker room talk.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, I mean, it's a lot of things, including Steve Bannon. Then, at the subsequent debate with Hillary Clinton, the front rows were filled with, with the women who have accused Bill Clinton. So, yes, you can say that this is handled in a. They handled this in a politically astute way. But even more importantly, it says Donald Trump, you know, never, never admit, never confess.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Well, like the Queen, never knowledge. Right. Never complain, never explain.

[Michael Wolfe]

I don't know these women. Who are these women? I don't know them. But. So question for you. Do you think we are recording this on Tuesday morning? Graham Platner has until next Monday, right, to, to withdraw, which would give the Democrats the ability to nominate someone else. If he doesn't, then he's on the ballot. And, and I, and I guess going forward. Do you think he will withdraw before next Monday?

[Joanna Coles]

I do. I do think he will withdraw. He'll probably be proved completely wrong and he'll be to brazen it out. But I don't think he will win against Susan Collins if he brazens it out. And I think he has to step aside.

[Michael Wolfe]

I mean, that's perfectly reasonable logic. I don't know. I mean, I think we're in a new climate, new politicians, new behavior among politicians, And we can go to a Trumpian model. And remember, Graham Platner is, although a Democrat and a progressive Democrat, also exists in a Trumpian model, you know, that he's not from politics. His life story is not at all a political life story. His rough edges are what gives him his credibility, his appeal and his attractiveness. And, and from a personal standpoint, he really only has two choices. To hang his head in shame and to be never heard from again, or to get beyond this by going through it.

[Joanna Coles]

I don't think he can go through.

[Michael Wolfe]

Not that I'm at all advocating that that's a good idea. I thought. My feeling has always been that he was a, an odd and probably inappropriate candidate.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, you always said that. And I was, I was charmed by him. I interviewed him. I told you he was in Norway at the time. He'd gone there for IVF because it was so much cheaper to have IVF in Norway than it is here. Although you can get IVF or at least you can get the meds now at Costco at massively reduced prices. But at the time he was in Norway, he seemed to have thought about all the things he'd been accused of, you know, totally inappropriate comments on Reddit, you know, an alleged Nazi tattoo which he'd got when he was drunk. I mean, he's clearly someone who has or has had problems with alcohol, which, you know, if you go to an ER room on a Friday or Saturday, half the problems there are to do with alcohol. This country has such issues with alcohol and we really don't deal with it at all. All the emphasis goes on drugs and opiates and things anyway, that's a different thing. But Graham Platinum has a problem with alcohol or he did have a problem with alcohol. It's led to all sorts of unfortunate behaviors. Clearly he has to step aside and let someone else who is a better candidate take on Susan Collins. It's too risky for the Democrats.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, it's too, it's too, I mean, he was risky. I mean, risk for the Democrats is a, is a kind of odd variable here because he was always risky for the Democrats. Yeah, he was more risky.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah.

[Michael Wolfe]

But I'm just, I'm, I don't know. I, I think I, I suppose I agree with you that in all likelihood he will step aside because he should step aside. But in this new climate.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. In this new world. And, and is this actually where he gets his attention, that he brazens it out? He's denied the allegations. The woman seems very plausible. She was very plausible on her interview on cnn.

[Michael Wolfe]

Completely. And I think, and I was thinking about this this morning as I was thinking about this, I was thinking that there is a good, good book about scandals, modern scandals, beginning with Bill Clinton. So the two most successful politicians of our era, era defined broadly are Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, each accused, I mean, each is surrounded by such scandal.

[Joanna Coles]

And then you have Barack Obama, also very successful, two term winner, not a whiff of scandal. Scandal free. Scandal free. Why are you being so silent? Are you going to come up with an Obama scandal? I don't think so.

[Michael Wolfe]

I'm just trying to think, I'm just trying to think also in terms of, in terms of success, you know, I mean, Obama is certainly has been a successful Democratic politician, a successful president, reelected president, but the kind of, but with a coolness in a distance and an elusiveness and in a remoteness that I think that, I think in this political time didn't serve him well, doesn't serve him well. And that the connection that people have felt to Bill Clinton and Donald Trump has been palpably much more direct.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And they have charisma.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, it's also the sense that you know these people, Right. You know, you really do deeply believe that you know them. You know, what's, you know, it's interesting that we do this thing inside Donald Trump's head because many other political commentators don't. But much of the country actually feels they know what's in Donald Trump's head

[Joanna Coles]

and, and they like it. A lot of them like it because they feel that he says it like it is. Okay, well, I still think Belgium's overturn this was the best troll of the week. If we're giving awards this week, overturn this.

[Michael Wolfe]

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[Joanna Coles]

So I wonder if anybody is watching and invested in Trump meme coins. 900,000 people did, and they've lost collectively, $3 billion.

[Michael Wolfe]

3.8. So 4 billion.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, 4 billion. You're rounding up. Rounding up.

[Michael Wolfe]

So what I wonder is what's in their head? I mean, I mean, wouldn't you say that these, that there should be a collective revolt at this point if you are among the 900,000 people who lost this money? Because, remember, they lost this money. Trump made billions.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, what did he make on it? I wrote down 1.4 billion. 1.4 billion. And on his meme coin alone, I think he made 600 million.

[Michael Wolfe]

I mean, so what are these people thinking? Are they thinking, are they thinking, I

[Joanna Coles]

just got in too late, if only I got in earlier, it's my fault,

[Michael Wolfe]

yes, I'm a terrible investor.

[Joanna Coles]

Or are they thinking it's going to come back? It's going to come back. It's just low right now. Bitcoin's low right now. At least I'm in the crypto game, because obviously this is crypto.

[Michael Wolfe]

I can't fathom it. I mean, first thing, who are these people who would invest alongside Donald Trump? I mean, this is the classic rigged market, right? Of course, Donald Trump, the house is gonna win. Of course you're gonna lose. Now, having said that, of course many people are already. There's a whole industry of people betting against the House and they don't revolt. So I guess I've answered my question.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it's sort of. It's a bit of a legal scam, isn't it? Because what Trump did with setting up World Liberty Financial, which also sounds like one of those things, it's just been. It's like Meghan Markle's American or what was it? American Riviera Orchard, or was it American Orchard Riviera. It was just a name that had come up on AI. I think this also felt like they put it into AI come up with plausible name for, you know, cryptogrifted and the Trump meme coin. And of course, people lost money on Melania's coin too. The Melania coin. I mean, it's so shameless. It's just extraordinary, this grift. And it's the President doing it.

[Michael Wolfe]

No? Well, it's the 900,000 people, yeah.

[Joanna Coles]

We are still outraged. I mean, people say that everybody's over Donald Trump's outrage. We are still outraged by this, aren't we? Aren't you outraged by it?

[Michael Wolfe]

No, actually, I mean, in principle, I'm outraged by it, in principle, of course. But the other point of outrage is a real emotional, moral reaction to what is grievously wrong, unfair and corrupt. And Watergate, I remember Watergate when one was actually, that was a moment which J.D. vance just excused.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. He said it would be a 12

[Michael Wolfe]

hour news cycle in which the country came to moral attention. And clearly they have not here, they have not at any point of the Trump grift, which is now 10 years running, getting worse and worse and worse and more lucrative and more lucrative for him. And we are inured, I think. Or do we accept it as part of Donald Trump, which is the, the other thing? If you like Donald Trump, then you have to like the grift because they go part and parcel with the man. He's a businessman. Of course he's going to take, take advantage of every opportunity that comes his way. I wish I could take advantage of every opportunity like that. Not I, I, but, but, but the, the, the man on the street.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, but do you think the man on the street looking at Donald Trump thinks, oh, that's amazing, he's such a good businessman. He's made $2.2 billion. He's an amazing businessman. Thank goodness he's my president.

[Michael Wolfe]

Apparently, depending upon which side of the street you are on. Yes, that's what you feel.

[Joanna Coles]

And do you also think all politicians are corrupt? At least Donald Trump is successful and corrupt.

[Michael Wolfe]

First thing, I do not think politicians are corrupt.

[Joanna Coles]

No, I don't either. But do you think the public thinks that? I mean, you know, there's been so much about Nancy Pelosi and all the Congress.

[Michael Wolfe]

I think depending upon which side of the street, actually on both sides of the street, may, may feel this. I Mean, politicians are obviously not a favored class at the moment like journalists. So, yeah, I think that that is, that that is also part of it. Remember, the other thing about Donald Trump, extraordinary thing is he's transparent because he

[Joanna Coles]

says people don't care. But interesting to know if we get. Right. Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

No. And he has specifically said that no one cares.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Well, I wonder if people do care and if the Democrats will be able to use it as part of their, you know, part of their strategy to win back the House and Senate.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, I'm sure, I'm sure they will. They will try. But this is the kind of thing that also can backfire. You know, you focus on an issue that people really don't. It doesn't resonate with them. Yeah, okay, sure. Donald Trump is. Tell me something I don't know.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And wouldn't it be better if the Democrats were talking about this in Maine than Graham Platner? Cause Susan Collins has also had some good investments, I believe, along the way.

[Michael Wolfe]

You know, I just, I don't know. And the Democrats don't know. What do we talk about? How do we present something that is, that is, how do we call the country to moral attention? We don't know how to do that.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, if you're listening to this, send us your comments on this, because this is the kind of thing that gets viewers and listeners really excited. And we would love to know, do you think people have lost moral outrage about Trump? I mean, when we hear from our commenters abroad, no one can believe this is happening here. And of course, Trump is at the NATO summit right now in Turkey. We had photos of him taking a walk with President Erdogan this morning. And we've still got Iran going on,

[Michael Wolfe]

which we will get to, I hope.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, we can get to it now if you want.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, no. Well, just, I want to make another point because in this, in this moment of what's the issue, what's the, where do the Democrats focus? You know, what seems to be going on is that it's not about, it's not about issues. It's not about focusing on these, these kinds of, this political script. It's about looking for a new kind of person.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, new kind of person. Let's talk about Nigel Farage, new kind of politician in the UK who today announced over money. I mean, and of course, Britain's saying, oh, it's Trump levels of money. It's absolutely not Trump levels of money. For Nigel Farage, he just remember levels

[Michael Wolfe]

so much in the UK are, you know, $100 in the UK and people

[Joanna Coles]

are right, but people are up and running because there's still a sense of moral outrage there, even after Boris Johnson and Liz Truss as Prime ministers. But Nigel Farage, it came to light, had taken a $5 million gift from a businessman.

[Michael Wolfe]

And there are several other points of corruption around Nigel. So it seems to be converging in on him.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, he's clearly on his own, kind of Faragian grift. But in a really interesting political stunt today, he's resigned his seat and is then standing again for the same seat, Claxton, in East Britain, East England.

[Michael Wolfe]

So he's basically saying to his constituency, to the voters, people are accusing me of all this stuff. Do you care? And you can register whether you care or not by voting me back in.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, it's a really.

[Michael Wolfe]

Which is relevant to the Graham Platner thing, that I think that he may take this position too. Well, he may. Obviously may not. And I don't know what he's going to do, but it would be to the same effect. This is who I am, this is what I've done. Do you care about this more than you care about.

[Joanna Coles]

About having me elected to represent you for affordability?

[Michael Wolfe]

And again, that goes to the thing. And it's not just about affordability. Again, I think it's a wrong thing to put this on issues. It's about the new political man. I am the new political man. You know, we were just.

[Joanna Coles]

My only thing about Platner and Farage is that it's one thing taking money and people are going to think, oh, Farage has got rich friends. I want someone in power who's.

[Michael Wolfe]

I totally agree.

[Joanna Coles]

Rape is different.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah, that's what it is, obviously. But I'm thinking. I just wonder if this other thing is about the person. The person?

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, it's about the person standing. It's about personality politics, it's about characters.

[Michael Wolfe]

There's a point that I want to get in here because in thinking about this and thinking about all of the Democrats who have recently overthrown the establishment, people coming out of. We don't even know these people. Who are they? And suddenly they're winning elections and they're going to go to Congress. And I thought, what do they have in common? They're all good looking.

[Joanna Coles]

Hmm, that's interesting.

[Michael Wolfe]

It's kind of a weird kind of thing. In contrast to standard issue politicians who generally look. From terrible to inconstitute to. We don't notice what they look like.

[Joanna Coles]

So it's from sort of Mitch McConnell at one end, admittedly he's older now, but Mitch McConnell to Abdul Al said in Michigan, who's upsetting things there. We saw a moderate candidate coming out

[Michael Wolfe]

this week, also him against his opponent, whose name does not come to me at the moment. Who is standard issue looking. She's not the incumbent. Haley Stevens. She's not the incumbent. She's a, it's an open seat. And, and she's, you know, perfectly. I mean, not, not someone who would be, who would be particularly noteworthy in the looks department. Fine. You know, just the, you know, and, and in. Not long ago that would not have been a consideration. Politicians look like politicians. They're not movie stars.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. But. But now they have to be. And AOC has talked about have the ability to communicate on social media. And so it helps if you're attractive. It really helps if you're attractive. She's.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah. Well, I don't know. I mean I myself do okay on social media. So that would, that would run contrary to that view.

[Joanna Coles]

That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But you're not running for office. You're not running for office.

[Michael Wolfe]

I am not running for office.

[Joanna Coles]

Perhaps you should run for the Hamptons. You could run to represent. You'd have to win in the blue collar district of Huntington. Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

Very, very tight seat there. Not liberal other than the Hamptons. But at any rate, I'm too old to run for office, I would say.

[Joanna Coles]

Not according to Ed Markey, who's going to be 80 when he goes into the Senate with his 50th year of public service behind him. Or Janet Mills, who was the candidate that Graham Platner won over for the primary in Maine. Democratic.

[Michael Wolfe]

But this is part of the point. Why are these people running? They're good looking partly because they're young, right?

[Joanna Coles]

No, but they're good looking because they're.

[Michael Wolfe]

And they're good looking because they're good looking.

[Joanna Coles]

Because they're good looking. Yeah. Well, Maloney, Georgia Maloney is quite good looking. And there was a very, I mean, I hate to say it cause it's

[Michael Wolfe]

nauseous, but this is the Italian Prime Minister.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, the Italian prime Minister, but Donald Trump truth socialed a picture of her looking adoringly at him and said restraining order. And of course, you know, this is because he claims that she demanded a selfie last time they met and that she was obsessed by him. She was like, why are you doing this? Completely untrue. Why are you doing this to your allies, do this to your enemies? And now he's trolling her even further. I mean, she must just want to slap him across the face when she sees him.

[Michael Wolfe]

She would not be alone.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. No, that's true. I mean, just remarkable what those poor Euros have to put up with with America. And of course, Pete Hegseth's doing his six month review of American troops in Europe. The Pentagon, that's not. Well, what is that? Just threatening and noisy and doesn't mean anything.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, I mean, it's just one of those other digressions in, in Trump land, in Trump world, inside Trump's head. What is it with the Europeans? Why would you go after Europe? Why would you create that schism and just digression that the Roman Catholic Church just had a schism? Last week I was trying to explain the nature of schisms.

[Joanna Coles]

What, to your children?

[Michael Wolfe]

To my 10 year old daughter. And I lost her interest.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I'm sure she's figured it out by now. She seems very smart.

[Michael Wolfe]

But nevertheless, I mean, the European thing is meaningful. It will be one of those things. And I think we can start to make a list of what are the things that Trump is going to leave us with and the kind of reshaping of the world, the reshaping of politics. And one of the things is this, is this schism with this ever increasing schism with Europe. And remember the importance of that has held the world in its semblance of peace and prosperity for

[Joanna Coles]

80 years. 80 years.

[Michael Wolfe]

And now that is we are clearly at this point, because of Donald Trump, moving beyond that. We don't have that anymore. It's almost disappearing. I mean, the NATO meeting that begins today, you know, NATO probably won't survive this, certainly not in the form that we have known it in the form that has, relatively speaking, maintained the peace for so long.

[Joanna Coles]

Is there an argument here that Europe should have been paying more for their own defense?

[Michael Wolfe]

Of course there's an argument. It's always good if somebody pays more, but that's never been by making that the chief criteria of this relationship, misses the point of this relationship.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, of course Trump's missed the point of the relationship because he doesn't listen to what the point of the relationship is. And he probably doesn't understand what the point of the relationship is.

[Michael Wolfe]

And it also actually is more basic than we think it is. It is Trump being the center of attention.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

He needs to be. I'm the center of attention of NATO because I'm going to ruin it or I'm going to make these demands on it. I'm More important than these Europeans. Actually. It's an interesting thing that during the first administration, aides would say that those European meetings were annoying to Trump because he had to appear as one among. Among this group of people when he was so much more the United States, and him as the President of the United States were so much more important. And he kept trying to, trying to reconfigure it so he would be in the front and they would be, they

[Joanna Coles]

would be behind him, Right? Yeah. It's all about billing, right? Of course it's all about billing. And his name has got to be first. Yeah. But the middle powers, as Mark Carney refers to them, are, you know, creating their own defense mechanism now.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah, I mean, there was so. There was a good story in the Wall Street Journal this week, a great story, actually, going into some detail about everything that had kind of, kind of fractured in the European relationship, in the European friendship. Anyway, I recommend it.

[Joanna Coles]

I read it. And in fact, that's where they described America, or a British intelligence source said America was now like the Crucible meets Wolf Hall. All right, do we want to talk about the ayatollah's funeral? Do you remember Ayatollah Khomeini's funeral in, I want to say, the late 80s? I remember watching it, and it just felt so different to any kind of state funeral that we. That I had ever seen. I mean, the, the sort of wooden coffin got passed along from people. There didn't seem to be any official pallbearers. It's just that the crowd carries it along. Do you remember it?

[Michael Wolfe]

Funerals are particularly important in the Shia culture. You know, they're so dramatic. Everybody's the book that we've been, that we've been. That we've been recommending King of Kings. King of Kings is. Is. It's actually kind of, kind of extraordinary on describing these kind of mourning rituals.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I mean, I was re watching

[Michael Wolfe]

this and they become political, too. Which is the other thing that, that becomes a kind of central, central principle of political organization is these, these funerals which happen on a regular basis.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and the other thing that's so noticeable about them, or so different from at least the culture I'm used to, is just how noisy they are. So people are wailing, they're banging their heads.

[Michael Wolfe]

You mean the Brits. The Brits don't wail, bang their heads?

[Joanna Coles]

No. When Diana, Princess Diana' coffin came along, complete silence. When the Queen's coffin went past complete silence, the crowd silences themselves as opposed to the wailing that goes on in, well, certainly in Iran and actually in African funerals too. Anyway, it's just a difference in culture.

[Michael Wolfe]

You wail in New Jersey.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, of course you wail in New Jersey, but you wail in New Jersey and you don't even need a funeral. But did you happen to watch the Ayatollah Khemenes funeral this week?

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, I saw, I wasn't glued to the television, but.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. But it's, I mean, again, just, it's sort of.

[Michael Wolfe]

No, no. And it's. No, and it's extraordinary. And it also goes to the, goes to the point. What was the point about this war? What was the point about actually killing this guy? It was to overthrow the regime. So now we have this demonstration that not only is the regime, not has it not been overthrown, but it appears to have mobilized the country.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And they didn't rise up as Donald Trump instructed them to, having promised that help was on the way. When they did rise up in January, by the time he decided to bomb it at the encouragement of Benjamin Netanyahu, they decided not to.

[Michael Wolfe]

No. And it's still, there's a thing. So we still look on this from the outside. We literally don't know what's going on.

[Joanna Coles]

We have no idea and we have no idea where Donald Trump doesn't know

[Michael Wolfe]

what's going on there. And you know, there were two stories, conflicting stories this week. One in the New York Times, one in the Washington Post in the Times story said momentary unity at a funeral mass, deep divisions among Iran's leaders. And the, the thrust of this story was that it's all on the verge of coming apart. Basically the Washington Post story was Iran's regime survived the war and is now savvier ruthless and more hardline.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. So completely conflicting stories.

[Michael Wolfe]

Completely. And I think that that goes to the point a, no one knows what's going on. And, and to the further point that we've just had this war and we don't know what it means, we don't know what it's accomplished. We don't know what it has left us with.

[Joanna Coles]

I don't even know if ships are moving in and out of the Strait of Hormuz now on everybody's lips. Are they, is traffic back to normal in the Strait of Hormuz?

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, it's certainly not back to normal and it's certainly, you know, I think it's a day to day business.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

Do you get bombed? Do you not get bombed?

[Joanna Coles]

It feels like it's going to be, I mean, it's a different.

[Michael Wolfe]

I mean, it's a negotiating. I mean, I mean, it's essentially the negotiating point here.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And then is it just going to end up being a kind of series of skirmishes that happen from time to time and it's basically a forever war? The very thing he campaigned against.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah, I think, yes. How could it not be at this point? I mean, he has. I mean, nothing has. The more important point is nothing has changed or little of importance has changed from before the war till after the war. It is still the same situation of an Iranian regime that is, that has enormous amount of power and influence and that is intent upon using that power and influence in ways that necessarily continued to make it our enemy.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And totally destabilize the region, which was beginning to settle down. So nothing improved by it.

[Michael Wolfe]

On July 16, the hawk lands on Netflix. From the mind of Will Ferrell. Oh, mama, I'm back. Comes a new original series. Get ready. Get ready. That's it. Did I stutter? When an iconic pro golfer, Lonnie Lonnie, takes one last swing at greatness.

[Joanna Coles]

You were a big shot golfer.

[Michael Wolfe]

I still am a big shot golfer. No one, dad, I'm the Hawk now. Will stand in his way. That's how it's done. The Hawk only on Netflix. July 16th.

[Joanna Coles]

I want to go to my favorite podcast, my favorite podcast, which, as you know, is story time with the second lady. Because when we read, we grow. Because when we read, we grow. She does an incredible grin after she said that someone, her producer has obviously said, you must, must smile more. And I think there is someone on set holding up something which says smile. Cause she goes from completely solemn straight face to suddenly a half moon of a smile. And you know, she's been told to smile more.

[Michael Wolfe]

This is a podcast that may have an audience of one. That one person may be Joanna Coles.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm obsessed by it. And of course, this week she had on the president. She had on the president. And she asked him, I mean, just

[Michael Wolfe]

to set the scene here. This is a podcast, theoretically, about books and reading for children.

[Joanna Coles]

Children are their fantasies for children.

[Michael Wolfe]

Here's the thing. That Donald Trump has literally zero interest in books and children.

[Joanna Coles]

Right? And reading. And reading.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yes, that would be.

[Joanna Coles]

So she asks him, do you know what books do you read? Do you have any time to read for fun these days?

[Michael Wolfe]

So I end up reading mostly newspapers. I usually read stories about myself.

[Joanna Coles]

He doesn't even read about anything else. So he would never have read those two conflicting stories in the Post and the Times about what's going on in Iran. As we know, he has a resistance to information.

[Michael Wolfe]

Can I go back to when I asked him this question?

[Joanna Coles]

Go on.

[Michael Wolfe]

So in the spring of 2016, he's running for president. Begins looking like actually he might get the nomination. Still, that seems preposterous and totally preposterous that he would be elected president. But I'm interviewing him and I ask him the question that all presidential candidates get asked. What's your favorite book? And I can see, I can still see now the look on his face, which was a kind of ship. You got me.

[Joanna Coles]

God, how could he not have been?

[Michael Wolfe]

How am I not prepared on this? And most. Most politicians, of course, say the Bible. But even that, I think maybe he had. He said, that's not credible, that I could say that. So you could see him search. And then suddenly, literally, his eyes light up and he says, all quiet on the Western front.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, I remember you saying this. Right. Which he'd obviously had to read at school.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah, yeah, it just came out from somewhere. He just brought up a title of a book.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. But a good book. Very good book. If only he had read it. Well, she asked him that. He says he reads about himself. And then each visitor to Usha's podcast is asked to read a book for the children. Last week it was JD Vance reading Winnie the Pooh, which he over complicated. I mean, it was absurd how he over complicated it and he over explained it. But Donald Trump didn't do that. He chose a children's book, which is produced by the White House Preservation Society, I think, and it's about how. It's called President's Play, and it's about how presidents relax when they're in the White House.

[Michael Wolfe]

President John F. Kennedy enjoyed sailing on the water while President Grover Cleveland relaxed by fishing.

[Joanna Coles]

And so the Bushes relaxed by playing horseshoe.

[Michael Wolfe]

Let me just go a little background on. On what would have happened that this would come out. He's gonna do this. We need a book.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, of course.

[Michael Wolfe]

And everybody in the White House would have been running around madly. What book is he gonna read?

[Joanna Coles]

It's a picture book, so he doesn't even need to read it. Interestingly.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah, well, that's another thing, too. Does it have. Did he just.

[Joanna Coles]

No, he just turns the pages and he describes it.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, then that would be a big thing, you know? Cause always the discussion within the White House is. And this is from the first administration. What is the level of his reading dysfunction? I mean, no one quite knows this, but they understand that words Reading sight. You know, all of this kind of. This kind of thing is a problem.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, he talks people through. So, you know, Nixon is bowling. Jimmy Carter plays tennis. And it's. And these things are so inadvertently revealing because he then gets to Obama, who's turned the tennis court into a baseball court, a basketball court. Sorry. And then there's a picture. There's a painting of all the presidents. There's a painting of Obama looking tall and lean and popping a ball into a hoop. And he goes, now here is Barack Hussein Obama. He's playing basketball. I don't think he's any good at basketball. He's probably not any good at basketball. And he, like, fixates on it. And then he must have been fixating on, I think, the Obama opening of the library and all the ex presidents together hanging out without him. And I'm sure he was thinking, are they all having fun hanging out without me? Which is a very good title of a Mindy Kaling book. But he then says, wouldn't it be. Wouldn't it be interesting if I got all the ex presidents together? We went to a football game, we could all sit together, watch the football game. Wouldn't that be great? And you're like, what are you talking about, man? What are you talking about? Anyway, obviously, it was the most watched podcast they've done. He scored higher than JD and he scored higher than Cheryl Hines, who, as I constantly remind you, read a book about the wolf and the Three Little Pigs, and when asked why, said, I like pigs. Speechless. Speechless.

[Michael Wolfe]

Speechless at all.

[Joanna Coles]

Totally worth 10 minutes of your time.

[Michael Wolfe]

The whole enterprise here.

[Joanna Coles]

I think it's just.

[Michael Wolfe]

Why would they have. Why would they have done. What is the point of this?

[Joanna Coles]

It's subversion. I think it's Usha's way of encouraging something that clearly Trumpians don't really care about, which is encouraging children to read.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Joanna Coles]

The funny thing is, I mean, she

[Michael Wolfe]

seems like such a captive in this thing that I can't imagine that she's doing this willingly. So somebody must have. Somebody must have gotten this idea that she should do this. And my guess, it's jd, that this is a JD production.

[Joanna Coles]

Hey, sweetie. Cause at one point when he does it, he reaches over and taps her knee and he's like, hey, sweetie. Maybe it was his idea.

[Michael Wolfe]

I think it's, you gotta get out there. We gotta find something for you to do.

[Joanna Coles]

We want people to like you. We need people to like you.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah. This is part of the. Of the JD campaign, so. And I Think this is probably a measure of the JD campaign. So.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, well, it's.

[Michael Wolfe]

So it's not looking good.

[Joanna Coles]

It's not looking good. But. But more to the point, Usha looks miserable doing it. She's clearly very uncomfortable in front of the camera. And this is a woman who, as I keep saying, was a Gates Scholar at Cambridge, but that obviously has nothing

[Michael Wolfe]

to do with YouTube.

[Joanna Coles]

Doesn't translate. No, of course not. It doesn't. But why isn't she doing something with her skills? Why is it instead of this, which makes her look plainly uncomfortable, is not playing to his friend?

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, you know, she's a super smart

[Joanna Coles]

woman and she's been relegated to sort of this silly podcast.

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, I imagine. I mean, imagine this is by choice. She doesn't. You know, if your husband is running for president, it's very hard to hold a job because you. Especially at that level. If she's running, you know what?

[Joanna Coles]

She could visit military wives. There's tons of stuff she could do. She could go and see children in hospital, children who've got cancer. There's so much she could do that would be more beneficial than this nonsense. And also, what's also fascinating, I can

[Michael Wolfe]

see you've thought about the job of first lady.

[Joanna Coles]

What I did think is funny is they have a part of.

[Michael Wolfe]

Did you ever think of yourself in that role?

[Joanna Coles]

No. I would have thought of myself as president, except I can't run as president. Can't run as president. But the thing that's interesting is they have for her set a pile of books which are stacked to look as if they are real books. And of course, they've just carried them into the Oval Office, which is where they do the interview, and plumps them down right next to Trump's chair. And Trump can't sit still either. So he can't just sit and read the book, which actually JD Could.

[Michael Wolfe]

He's sort of all over his chair behind the desk.

[Joanna Coles]

No, he's sitting on a chair next to her. And he keeps saying how fabulous and. And how popular she is in the White House, and people really like you here. And then actually, again, he's kind of appealing in that he looks at himself and he says he doesn't play golf at the White House, which I think Harry Truman had done, because he wants people to know that he's working for them. He's working for the American people, despite the fact he spent, I think, a quarter of his presidency playing golf. But he then makes the joke about he doesn't want to be the least fit President ever or the fattest president ever think Taft was bigger than Trump. But Trump, it was clearly on Trump's mind.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah, well, Trump has got to be up there. I mean, he's a 300 pound guy. Whatever he says that's 300 pounds and

[Joanna Coles]

he's 15 pounds heavier this year than he was last year.

[Michael Wolfe]

I mean, you have no idea what it is, the sense of his massiveness when you're with him. I mean, it's daunting, right?

[Joanna Coles]

I'm sure it's daunting. No, and I'm sure it's a very helpful tool when you're in the room with someone.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah. No, I mean, even I was on the times that I've been on the multiple times I've been with him. It's the thing that you are most

[Joanna Coles]

aware of, his physicalness. Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't think John Thune's intimidated by his height because he's taller.

[Michael Wolfe]

It's not just height, however.

[Joanna Coles]

No. It's his mass. He's like a bison. He's physically like a bison.

[Michael Wolfe]

There's something, maybe something else about the way he animates. I mean, it's a presence.

[Joanna Coles]

It's a presence. Any updates in your case against Melania Trump?

[Michael Wolfe]

Well, I think you're up to date. We were in court last week and, and the judge reproached the other side, but there's no decision on that and there's no. Now the other side, we're just waiting to see whether they go forward with their threat to file sanctions, which is just something that you do to make us spend more money and waste out the clock, cause more delay. And actually the interesting thing about this is as this is, this is outlined to me and by the lawyers and how it plays out that if they, they will go, if they go forward with this bid for sanctions, this is how much this can cost. They go forward with this bid for sanctions, it will then be. The judge has pretty much said that she will throw this out, but then they will appeal that to the Second Circuit and then the Second Circuit will throw this out and then they will appeal it to the Supreme Court. Now, this is not even the main focus of this case, but this is then a tributary of this case that will end up costing. That's, you know, probably all in. That's a, you know, that's six figures, certainly.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Well, as someone pointed out, one of our comments pointed out, this is like John Dice and Jarn Dice in Dickens Bleak House where they spend so long on a case over an estate that. That they all run out of money. The whole thing is spent in the court.

[Michael Wolfe]

Right. The only problem here is that of course, the Trumps in the United States government will not run out of money.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolfe]

Whereas. Whereas I might.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, you're hugely supported by people that you raised a lot of money on GoFundMe, and I'm sure people will be prepared to help you if it gets to the point where you've run out your initial fund. But they must be banking on that, that it's just how people use the law. It's remarkable.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yeah. Now, I'm not sure I told you that. So when they were in court, my lawyers saw on their screens, the opposing counsel's screens, as the judge was admonishing them. So they didn't get to use this material, but they had us up there ready to use snippets of our.

[Joanna Coles]

Of Inside Trump's head.

[Michael Wolfe]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I wonder which part it was. Do you know which bit it was?

[Michael Wolfe]

I don't. I don't.

[Joanna Coles]

Intriguing. Intriguing. Well, if you have been, thank you for joining us. We'll be back on Thursday. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. This is. We are independent media. We've just had Independence Day. A toast to Independence Day. Let's have a toast to independent media. And the reason we can bring you these conversations is with your support. So please feel free to join the Daily Beast and you could become a friend of the Beast, or you can join the Beast tier membership where you get all sorts of advantages and you can also get an ad free experience. Some people have complained about the ads on YouTube. If you get a subscription, you get an ad free experience and you get to support independent media.

[Michael Wolfe]

And I'm sure there's some tier here where you can come and have lunch with us.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, we should introduce that tier. The lunch tier. The lunch tier. Well, we should go and have some lunch. Let's go and have lunch. Let's go and have lunch. All right. Do you want to thank our crew?

[Michael Wolfe]

Thank you as always. Ryan. Max. New name on the set.

[Joanna Coles]

The intern. Max. The Intern.

[Michael Wolfe]

John. Heather. Rachel. Neal.

[Joanna Coles]

So the good news is we have so many Beast tier members now, there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support.