The Sleazy Reason Trump Can’t Quit Ghislaine Maxwell

Summary

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Inside Trump's Head

Episode Title: The Sleazy Reason Trump Can’t Quit Ghislaine Maxwell
Hosts: Michael Wolff, Joanna Coles (The Daily Beast)
Air Date: August 29, 2025

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Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

This episode tackles Donald Trump’s ongoing fascination and potential inclination to pardon Ghislaine Maxwell, exploring how her world intersects with Trump’s. Hosts Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles dig into the just-released "Ghislaine Maxwell Proffer transcripts," comparing them to a real-life political thriller and examining what these transcripts reveal about Trump’s psychology, the culture of pardons in his political orbit, and the nature of elite privilege. The discussion further unravels the ecosystem of Trump's wealthy network, his transactional approach to loyalty, and the sordid social circles shared by Trump, Maxwell, Epstein, and others.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

I. Trump & Maxwell: A Shared World

• Wolff argues that Trump feels a kinship with Maxwell because "she comes from the same world that he comes from"—the moneyed, transatlantic society of movers and fixers ([00:50], [30:45]).
• Trump’s sense of obligation or ‘sympathy’ towards Maxwell may be rooted in personal debts ("he owes her something"), service delivered, or shared social circles.
• Pardoning Maxwell is politically fraught, yet "he wants to do it" because of personal loyalty, not just political calculus ([03:13]).

Memorable Quote

"You know, let's go back to the pardon culture of the Trump White House. He pardons rich criminals."
— Michael Wolff [03:34]

II. The Economy of Pardons

• Pardons have become a kind of currency in Trump’s ecosystem; “a lot of these people are making money off of, let's be perfectly blunt, selling pardons” ([04:38]).
• Lobbyists or ‘fixers’ with connections to Trump are hired by wealthy criminals seeking pardons, paying fees in exchange for access or advocacy.
• Trump’s friends benefit financially and politically from facilitating this system, creating circles of loyalty around Trump ([05:44]-[06:21]).

Memorable Exchange

"They're buying the pardon."
— Joanna Coles [09:20]
"And by the way, it's not necessarily certain that if you hire one of these people, you're going to get a pardon, but it certainly puts you in the running."
— Michael Wolff [09:21]

III. High-Profile and White Collar Pardonees

• The hosts rattle off a list of notable pardon recipients: Carlos Watson (Ozzy Media), the Chrisleys (reality TV personalities), various politicians and white-collar criminals, and even gang leaders ([06:27]-[08:45]).
• Wolff notes the lack of real ideological consistency: "this is not an ideological pardon. This was because he knew the right people, he had the money, which enabled him to make the right contacts" ([07:28]).

IV. The Ghislaine Maxwell “Proffer” and Its Implications

• The recently released transcript offers insight into the inner workings of Epstein’s and Maxwell’s world, and indirectly, Trump’s psychology.
• Maxwell may possess incriminating evidence: “I believed [photos of Trump with topless girls] were probably in Jeffrey Epstein's safe when it was raided...Does she have copies of those photographs? She would have been there, my understanding was, when they were taken.” ([10:40]-[11:25])
• The hosts highlight a dramatic ending in the transcript—a back-and-forth between lawyers, underscoring how high the stakes remain politically and legally ([11:25]-[12:19]).

Memorable Quote

"That's the number two in the Justice Department to a woman who was convicted for 20 years of sex trafficking."
— Joanna Coles [12:21] "Let's just bend over and I mean..."
— Michael Wolff [12:28]

V. The Epstein Social Circle & Connections

• Extensive discussion of the social milieu: Sarah Ferguson, Prince Andrew, Princess Diana, Eva Dubin (née Anderson), Lyn Forrester (Rothschild), and their complex ties to Epstein ([13:03]-[27:17]).
• Maxwell’s narrative (in the transcript) distances herself from being Epstein’s primary social connection to the British elite; she points, for instance, to Lyn Forrester as the one who introduced Prince Andrew to Epstein ([26:55]).

Notable Quote

“It's interesting to see Epstein surrounded by women who can give him something...Highly accomplished women. So one does not negate the other.”
— Michael Wolff [27:45-27:46]

VI. The “Business Model” of Epstein (& Trump’s Parallel)

• The transcript hints that Epstein described his financial pursuits as “looking for stolen money,” with fanciful references to figures like El Chapo, reflecting the murky, cross-boundary nature of his finances ([28:24]-[29:00]).
• Wolff draws parallel lines between the “strange intersections at these strange underbelly[s]” where money, crime, and legal technicalities meet ([29:00]-[30:05]).

VII. Intertwined Histories – Trump, Maxwell, Epstein

• The episode concludes with reminders about how Trump's network, Epstein, and Maxwell are interconnected—from the purchase of the Daily News to the flows of money and celebrity access ([31:17]-[32:21]).
• Trump’s enduring loyalty to his milieu—and to Maxwell in particular—is seen as both self-preservational and a reflection of his own history with deals and debts.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Trump & Maxwell’s world:
  "That's Donald Trump's world. And it's no coincidence that Ghislaine has known Donald Trump for many, many, many years."
  — Michael Wolff [00:50], [30:45]

• On pardon culture:
  "He pardons rich criminals... he may identify with them because he's kind of— not kind of— he is a rich criminal."
  — Michael Wolff [03:34]

• On selling pardons and loyalty:
  "A lot of these people are making money off of, let's be perfectly blunt, selling pardons."
  — Michael Wolff [04:38]

• On transactional nature of Trump’s network:
  "They're buying the pardon."
  — Joanna Coles [09:20]

• On evidence Maxwell may hold:
  “I believed [those photographs] were probably in Jeffrey Epstein's safe when it was raided … She would have been there, my understanding was, when they were taken.”
  — Michael Wolff [10:40-11:25]

• On the power of the proffer transcripts:
  “It is riven with clues about the Epstein case.”
  — Joanna Coles [12:31]

• On elite social machinery:
  "[The transcript] gives so many clues to how did Epstein make the money? And why did people go and hang out with him?"
  — Joanna Coles [18:44]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Trump’s relationship to Ghislaine Maxwell: [00:50], [30:45]
• Pardon-selling “industry” in Trump world: [04:38]-[06:21]
• Discussion of high-profile pardons: [06:27]-[09:21]
• Potential dirt Maxwell has on Trump: [10:34]-[11:25]
• Epstein’s social machinations: Fergie, Diana, the Dubins, Forrester/Rothschild: [13:03]-[27:17]
• How Epstein made his money: [28:24]-[29:14]

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Listener Comments & Closing Reflections

• Listeners ask about Trump’s motivations, health, and political machinations, with Wolff and Coles offering sly, incisive responses ([32:21]-[37:18]).
• Coles and Wolff reflect on their own experiences (or lack thereof) with Trump, underscoring the surreal proximity of media, power, and scandal ([37:20]-[38:16]).

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Final Takeaway

Through a combination of transcript analysis, personal anecdotes, and acute psychological profiling, Wolff and Coles unravel the web of interests, sympathies, and transactions animating Trump’s relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell. The episode paints a picture of power protected by privilege, loyalty purchased by pardons, and secrets shielded by the very structure of elite society.

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For deeper dives, key timestamped segments highlighted above offer entry points into the episode’s richest revelations.

Transcript

[Acast Host]

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Michael Wolff]

To wrap up, what is inside Donald Trump's head here about Ghislaine, which is that she comes from the same world that he comes from. So there is this sympathy, there is this, you know, this person who knows this person who does this and this is where the money moves and all that. That's Donald Trump's world. And, and it's no coincidence that Ghislaine has known Donald Trump for many, many, many years.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles back with Inside Trump's Head, part two of the Ghislaine Maxwell Proffer transcripts, which as I've said is better than any thriller you are going to read this summer. It's your new beach reading. Take it for your long weekend, settle in and read all about the woman who is inside Trump's head this week. All right, Michael, we're going to pick up where we left off still deep, knee deep in this Ghislaine moment Maxwell transcript. But you're hearing that he's calling round he Donald Trump is calling around.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean I think she is, you know, inside Trump's head is this week Ghislaine and I think it's very, it's high pressure for him and he's calling around and he's saying literally what should I do about Maxwell? And I think it's divided on his, in his mind because he knows he will get flak. He knows it is actually not the politic thing to do. But at the same time I think he wants to pardon her. I think he feels something for her and in addition to owing her something because she delivered on what she had to do, he has never done anything inappropriate. He's a great guy, the greatest guy.

[Joanna Coles]

And I never saw the birthday letter.

[Michael Wolff]

No birthday letter. Right. But he doesn't have to. I mean he's gotten that now he doesn't have to pardon her.

[Joanna Coles]

But I was going to ask you about MAGA because MAGA is split on this too.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I think it is politically fraught for him to do this, but I think he will do this because he wants to do it, but because he owes her and because he feels some sympathy for her. So that's the interesting question. Why would he feel sympathy for her?

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, well, why would he feel sympathy for her?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, let's go back to the pardon culture of the Trump White House. He pardons rich criminals.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, he pardoned January 6th. Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

They went over here.

[Joanna Coles]

They weren't rich criminals.

[Michael Wolff]

No, but they were. Remember, remember, he was on trial for January 6, and because he became the President of the United States, he could disappear that. And now he disappears all of the January 6th defendants or convicts because a. Because they bring up the question of January 6th again. And also because in some weird inverted sense of fairness, I think he believes, you know, I got. I got off for this. They should get off for this. But then there's this other category, and it is literally rich criminals. He has a feeling for these people, and he may identify with them because he's kind of not kind of. He is a rich criminal.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

But there's a more of a structural point here, and you have to see it. There's a whole, you know, the layers around Donald Trump of the Trump circle, the loyalists in the Trump circle. And that is probably includes, I don't know, there could be a hundred people in this category. A lot of these people are making money off of, let's be perfectly blunt, selling pardons.

[Joanna Coles]

Pardons for selling. And how do they make money from it?

[Michael Wolff]

They go, if you want to pardon, if you're a rich criminal and you want to pardon, you go and hire one of these people for the express purpose. And this is not technically illegal. You're hiring someone to do a service for you, which is to represent you to the president. You're not on the president's payroll. You're not a government employee. You're an outside person who has a relationship with. With this White House and with President Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

So these are like lobbyists for people who are in jail who want pardons.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. Now, the structural advantage to Trump is that this is how these people are paid, and they are paid in not only. Not only to achieve a pardon for someone, but they're paid for their loyalty to Donald Trump. So Donald Trump is getting two benefits here. He's getting a lot of people who are constantly attending him who he doesn't have to pay.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And they are incentivized because of what they're selling to be loyal to Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

All right? So I'VE got a list, actually of the people that he's pardoned since he came into power. In his first administration, he granted 237 in the full four years to date already he's done 1600. Now, most of those are January 6th. But what stands out, Carlos Watson. Do you remember him?

[Michael Wolff]

I knew Carlos Watson.

[Joanna Coles]

You knew Carlos Watson of Aussie Media? I didn't know him.

[Michael Wolff]

What disreputable person haven't I known?

[Joanna Coles]

Cause that was a white collar crime. I mean, he pretended someone else.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no. He had a company and he tried to raise money through means that were fraudulent.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. And.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, and why. And now, curiously, Carlos Watson is a liberal. You know, that was his whole point. I mean, he was.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, went to Harvard. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. He went to college anyway, that's.

[Joanna Coles]

I think he went to Harvard.

[Michael Wolff]

But at any rate, he went to Harvard Business. At any rate, he is, you know, a perfect, nice fraudster. You know, a true white collar fraudster. And so this is not an ideological pardon. This was because he knew the right people, he had the money, which enabled him to make the right contactscontacts who could then represent him to the President of the United States.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so then we have the Chrisleys that got a lot of attention because they're a reality television couple who got convicted of fraud. I mean, almost all the people that he's given pardons to. Michel Fiore, who is a Nevada politician who was convicted of diverting donations. The Chrisleys I've mentioned there was a health care exec called Paul Walsack for tax crimes. They're all white collar crimes. Michael Grimm, the former New York congressman, tax fraud. Larry Hoover was a gang leader. Don't know him. Do you know Larry Hoover just got a federal sentence commuted, it says here. And then there was the Arkansas state senator convicted of bribery and tax fraud, who was pardoned. Jeremy Hutchinson.

[Michael Wolff]

So, yeah, no, I mean, this is.

[Joanna Coles]

This is all because people are basically hustling him and lobbying him because it's white collar crime and they're not a danger to other people.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I don't even think that that's the issue. I mean, he can excuse a danger to other people. And there have been instances of that, of pardoning people who you wouldn't necessarily want on the street. But these are people, as I say, who. They're buying the pardon.

[Joanna Coles]

They're buying the pardon.

[Michael Wolff]

And you do this by hiring one of his people. And by the way, it's necessarily certain that if you hire one of these people, you're going to get a pardon, but it certainly puts you in the running.

[Joanna Coles]

And it's how he gives work to friends.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, exactly.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, he gives work to friends. So what are the benefits here of pardoning Ghislaine?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, as I say, I mean, he feels that he owes it to her and.

[Joanna Coles]

But she's done it now. I mean, so does he have to give her anything?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I don't think he does. I mean, unless a deal has been made, and let's not discount that.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

That a deal has somehow been communicated. After all, she has been moved from bad prison to good prison.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. And also, what was amazing, and I might have to do a dramatic reenactment here with Todd Blanche, and the way the interview ended, I think that the.

[Michael Wolff]

Other thing is we don't. What she has. So if she did, in fact, leak the incriminating birthday message, which was the.

[Joanna Coles]

Picture of the nude women with Donald Trump as a signature for her pubic hair.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, precisely. Maybe she has other things. You know, those photographs, for instance, that. That I saw, that I believed were probably in Jeffrey Epstein's safe when it was raided. A set of about a dozen snapshots of Trump with some of the girls who were at Epstein's house in Palm Beach. Girls topless? Topless. I don't know their ages. And it was not clear in the photographs. Does she have copies of those photographs? She would have been there, My understanding was when they were taken.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. All right, so I just want to read you the last bit. So this is Todd Blanche wrapping up the proffer, as it's officially known, which you've reminded us. Well, I think it's very challenging to talk about everything we've talked about and, you know, in one and a half days or in just a period of hours. So I'll talk to Mr. Marcus, her lawyer, about kind of what we're going to do next, if anything. There's no. And I don't know, and I'm not being coy. I just. I don't know yet. I don't know. So. So we. Oh, I have a lot. We have some work to do that is he's going to go back and talk to Donald Trump, because this is all audience of one, as you're always saying. We'll do it with your lawyers to the extent we have questions or follow up. And this has been very helpful. I think it was you, you know, who kind of said you wanted to talk, but we gladly accepted it. So I do appreciate you being willing to meet with us. And I expect we'll be in touch soon.

[Michael Wolff]

That's extraordinary, isn't it?

[Joanna Coles]

That's the number two in the Justice Department to a woman who was convicted for 20 years of sex trafficking.

[Michael Wolff]

Let's just bend over and I mean.

[Joanna Coles]

It'S just amazing to me. And this is why this stuff has to be passed line by line by line. It is riven with clues about the Epstein case.

[Michael Wolff]

Completely. And actually a good question is why they released it. Because again, they had no obligation to release.

[Joanna Coles]

I think they released it because they thought, nobody's going to read it. It's too long, nobody's going to read it.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, and also the headlines are clear. Donald Trump saw, did nothing and inappropriate. A great guy and no birthday letter.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. So the other thing I thought was really interesting in it was this settling of scores around women, around Epstein. So we have her saying that basically Fergie. So Sarah Ferguson, who is married, as we know, to Prince Andrew, long term friend of Epstein.

[Michael Wolff]

Let me preface that just a second because one of the things that you get here, which you don't really get from any of the other accounts, because they're not inside accounts, is the life of Jeffrey Epstein, right? What is going on here, who he's courting, who he's seeing, how he is doing, whatever it is that, that he does in a business context, which is still not exactly clear here, but you begin to see a greater picture of the life. And I mean, one of the things that you see is that he spent, I mean, what did he spend his time doing other than getting massages and happy endings? He spent his life looking for real estate, which is what she was part of, right.

[Joanna Coles]

She helps him at the beginning, right. They're introduced sort of on a blind date and he says, oh, I need to find a new apartment. She's looking for a place for a dad. They connect, right?

[Michael Wolff]

So he's buying these massive pieces of property, very expensive pieces of property, and then developing these massive, expensive pieces of property of which she is a key player in. Now, where does the money come to buy these massive pieces of property? And I mean, these are, some of, these are huge. The island in the Caribbean, which is a, which she describes kind of as rustic, right? And by the time they're finished, it's a, you know, he's built a white Lotus set, right.

[Joanna Coles]

Although it was only $7 million. The island, right, Which I thought was quite low for an island in the Virgin Islands.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, have you ever bought one?

[Joanna Coles]

No, I haven't bought one. I mean, because it's not really the land. It's the fact that you have to.

[Michael Wolff]

Bring in everything to it's tens of millions, if not $100 million to develop this island. And then you have the property in New Mexico, the largest piece of privately owned property in New Mexico, the ranch, which Ghislaine then proceeds to fill with animals. And again, we don't know where does the money come to do this. We don't really see the business he's doing, but suddenly he's buying this real estate. And that's one aspect of the life that you see. But then the other aspect is these people that he's involved with who are. Who are clearly facilitating this life of inexplicable wealth, which is fueled on the back of this really talented social climate.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, really. Okay, so we've got Sarah Ferguson, married to Prince Andrew, who we know is a regular visitor to Epstein's mansion and to the island, and ended up doing a £12 million settlement over allegations that he'd slept with Virginia Giuffre. Right. Fergie, his wife, according to Ghislaine Maxwell, is basically throwing herself at Epstein. Epstein, meanwhile, as we have said, inside Trump's head a couple of weeks ago, throwing himself at Princess Diana.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, but. And let me just say that Fergie, we. We do know that Epstein bailed her out of a deep financial difficulty she is in at one point.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. So she's giving him social cover and bringing Prince Andrew to him again as social cover and bait. And, you know, you get these calls from people saying, oh, I've got Prince Andrew coming for dinner. Would you like to come? Because it's a way of luring people in because they want to meet Prince Andrew. But then there was one that I found really interesting, and Ghislaine, throughout the transcript is sort of saying that she was going out with him, but was she really? They only slept together once, then they didn't sleep together again for another nine months.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, but there's this other thing. They didn't have sex. They had sex once, but then they travel together and they sleep together in the same bed.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, but they don't have sex. But she describes him. She then comes to realize that he may have had lots of other women going on at the same time. And she's clearly very envious or jealous of his relationship with Eva Anderson, who was. Right. Who becomes Eva Dubin and who was a Miss Sweden. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. And the Dubins, Eva Dubin. Eva Anderson marries Glenn Dubin. They become a very important social Couple.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And Eva Anderson then becomes a doctor. So in this she's a. I mean, this is what, this is one of my.

[Joanna Coles]

Jeffrey pay for her in medical school too.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. I know that there's a later girlfriend who he, who he does end to Dental school.

[Joanna Coles]

Dental school, yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

And. But you know, another one of these things and it's so Eva Dubin, who is obviously, you know, a model Ms. Sweden.

[Joanna Coles]

But then lots of the early pictures.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. But then in the transformation, she then becomes a very estimable doctor.

[Joanna Coles]

I mean, it's just full of things. It's the best summer read. I don't want to sound cynical or mawkish or malevolent about this, but it really is bursting with clues as to the questions that have dominated or too enthusiastic or too enthusiastic. But it is, it gives so many clues to how did Epstein make the money? And why did people go and hang out with him?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No. And of this life that he led. And she's kind of, she clearly doesn't, or at least represents it. She doesn't entirely understand the life. So even when we look at this and a lot of trying to parse this is that his social climbing was on the back of Ghislaine, who was well connected in British society. But she says, no, no, no, no. He was already well connected before I met him. He was already moving. He was already, he already knew people. And in fact, the Princess Diana chapter in which we had talked about on a couple of episodes ago ago, in which I talked about that he and Trump had a competition who could sleep with Diana first and that Jeffrey Epstein had this weird role in which he was the person at functions where Diana was present when the seat beside her became empty. He was the seat fellow Jeffrey Epstein was then pushed in so that she could never have, she would never have an empty seat beside her. And that Trump was very envious that Epstein had achieved such a position.

[Joanna Coles]

Michael, we're just going to stop for some ads.

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[Joanna Coles]

And we're back with Michael Wolff inside Trump's head. In another weird turn of events, Diana then goes out with Dodi Fayed. So it's not, so far, it's not such a stretch that she would have actually maybe gone out with Jeffrey Epstein. He was a bachelor, he was living in New York, he had a huge house. He clearly had lots of money to give her the lifestyle that she wanted. But she ends up going out with Dodi Fayed, obviously ending in a terrible, terrible car crash. But his father, the owner of Harrods, Mohammed Al Fayed, then goes on to be accused after he's died by more than 300 women.

[Michael Wolff]

The worst kind of thing, the worst.

[Joanna Coles]

Kind of sexual abuse. I mean, that almost puts Epstein actually, you know, in a different category. And I actually, this weekend, when I was back in the uk, ran into someone who used to work at Harrods and I was asking them about the story and he said, we used to hide the women employees when we knew Al Fayed was on the floor law, because he would come after them.

[Michael Wolff]

No, old man Al Fayed is clearly, clearly, he may establish he is the worst boss of all time.

[Joanna Coles]

Worst boss of all time. I mean, it's the scale of it. And in particular, you know, you think of Jimmy Savile, I mean, hundreds of children that he abused. It's just, I don't know, these guys, it's just so weird. So weird. Anyway, we've got off track. We've gone off track. We were talking about Trump pardoning people.

[Michael Wolff]

Jimmy Savile always get you always.

[Joanna Coles]

Sorry, sorry. I always go back to Jimmy Savile because again, hiding in plain sight. Mohamed Al Fayed hiding in plain sight. Jeffrey Epstein actually not hiding in plain sight because he wasn't really out there. In fact, he was phobic about going to restaurants and he liked to do everything in his own home.

[Michael Wolff]

But in a sense, he, he was, I mean, that's. I'm not sure somebody like Mohamed Al Fayed was hiding this. I mean, the fact that he was jumping on people, the fact that he was, whatever he did, he was so malevolent, but he had the. He was all about respectability. That was the Dodi Fayed thing. Mary Diana. Jeffrey Epstein was. He actually was a show off. Wherever he went, it would be with three young women. Always. It was as though he wanted to be known for this. Maybe he wanted to be caught for this. Maybe he was. Maybe, you know, and I always felt that maybe it was some kind of joke that he was playing. Come get me or right, here I.

[Joanna Coles]

Am, here I am. Well, and also the conspiracy theories, you know, Mohammed Al Fayed accused Prince Philip Married to the Queen of murdering Diana because they didn't want her to marry his son.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, you know, one of the things. One of the. One of the Trump attractions to Jeffrey Epstein was in fact, this, that he went around. Have you seen, you know, there's a lot Trump talks about Epstein as. Did you. Have you seen this guy? Do you see the girls he's with all the time?

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. Okay. All right. So the other person that's in this is Lyn Forrester, who becomes Lynne Rothschild.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. So. And this is. I mean, here is a person who has been on the edge of the Epstein story, but the very edge. I mean, her name does not come up. And this is significant because, you know, the Epstein story is always cast by, you know, he's a pedophile. It's young women. It's. But Lynn Forrester is not a young woman. And she is a person of high standing and accomplishment who is central to the Epstein story. And Ghislaine points to her here. I mean, her name is Lynne Forrester, but she marries a Rothschild and she takes over the Rothschild Bank. She is a banker. She takes over the. Over the bank.

[Joanna Coles]

And who was she married to? Just remind me who she was married to first.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, she was married to a guy by the name of Andrew Stein. That's right. Who was in the early 80s, the president of the New York City Council. Then the structure has changed and there's an. Whatever that job is, the job title changes. But. But a politician in New York. And in fact, Epstein negotiates Lynn Forrester's divorce from Andrew Stein. And Ghislaine's implication is. I don't know this to be true, but her implication is that Jeffrey Epstein and Lynn Forrester had a relationship, but certainly they ultimately had a business relationship through the Rothschild Bank.

[Joanna Coles]

And doesn't she also say that, in fact it was Lynn Forrester who introduced Prince Andrew to Jeffrey Epstein while they were all on holiday in Nantucket?

[Michael Wolff]

Right. So that's an interesting thing because again, it was always. The surmise was that Ghislaine had the Prince Andrew relationship and she brought him into the Epstein fold. And so she's clearly distancing herself from that at this point.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so she's distancing herself from Prince Andrew. Drive by, hit on Lynn Forrester, slash Rothschild.

[Michael Wolff]

And so what you see is also a circumstance. Again, the view we have is Epstein surrounded by teenage girls. And this suddenly is a view of Epstein surrounded by women who can.

[Joanna Coles]

Highly accomplished women.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Who can give him something. So one does not negate the other, of course. But it's interesting to see them contemporaneously.

[Joanna Coles]

So one of the other reasons I found this transcript so fascinating was that it does have clues about his business or how she understood his business. And there is a remarkable exchange where she's talking with Todd Blanche and he's trying to understand how Jeffrey Epstein made his money. And she says, he told me himself that he started a business with where he looked for stolen money. So if somebody. Let's see. I'm trying to think of some intelligent way to say it, but I can't think of anything. So let's say you have El Chapo. Okay, so pretty insane reference. Oh, God. I don't know where he comes from. But anyway, we've got El Chapo, and El Chapo's laundering money, or still he's working with the Sinaloa cartel, and he steals money from the Sinaloa Cartel and he moves out it to wherever. So he's got stolen money from the Sinola, goes to it. This didn't happen. I'm just. And you're like, where does this come from?

[Michael Wolff]

Extraordinary. Now, let me just. So the deal, the jail that Jeffrey Epstein died in was also the jail that housed El Chapo.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And the rules of this, of this jail, you could stay out of the general population if your lawyers were there essentially babysitting you. And Epstein had lawyers that were there from the, from morning till.

[Joanna Coles]

So you're out of your cell. As long as you have a lawyer coming to talk to you about your case, you sit in the lawyers?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

You just have to pay the lawyers to sit there.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And it's very hard to find that many lawyers to pay. So what they. What Epstein's lawyers did was hire the same lawyers who babysat El Chapo. It's just crazy now, so. And I don't know if that's at all related to what Ghislaine is saying, but it's that it's these strange intersections at these strange underbelly.

[Joanna Coles]

So strange. It's so strange. We're just going to take a break for these messages.

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[Joanna Coles]

And we are back and deep within the dark matter inside Trump's head.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I just want to wrap up what is inside Donald Trump's head here about Ghislaine, which is that she comes from the same world that he comes from. So there is this sympathy, there is this, you know, this person who knows this person who does this, and this is where the money moves and all that. That's Donald Trump's world. And it's no coincidence that Ghislaine has known Donald Trump for many, many, many years.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And he was friendly with her father. He must have looked at how his father ended up.

[Michael Wolff]

No. And there is another aspect of this. So her father bought the. The Daily News, and that was a deal that both Epstein and Trump were involved in and encouraging Robert Maxwell to buy the Daily News. Obviously, that would be good for Trump because he's a tabloid figure, and Epstein fancied himself a guy behind pulling the strings of the media. And Maxwell did buy it and then actually went into bankruptcy, and everything bad happened. But even then, Epstein then helped Mort Zuckerman buy the Daily News out of bankruptcy. So again, continuing this, who knows who, where does the money flow? And there you'll find Jeffrey Epstein and Donald on Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

All right, so I'm going to dive into some comments, because I promise we'll do it. And I'm always thrilled when people write to us, even when they write to us negatively. And I respond to as many as I can, but I can't always get to as many as we have because we have thousands. All right, this is from Pauline Brooks. 3221. Putin told Trump to get rid of mail in voting. Trump tweets, he wants to get rid of mail in voting. What other orders did he get? And when will he implement any ideas?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, what Putin said to me.

[Joanna Coles]

Right, okay. So, all right. To Michael. Trump was very quiet for some time. When Elon Musk held court in the Oval Office with his son, Trump was very quiet. That is, he wasn't talking all the time. Why? That's a good question.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he was fuming.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, he was fuming. That's from Joanne Newsom. 5202.

[Michael Wolff]

He was fuming. I mean, he's furious about this. What was this kid doing in the office? What was. What was, you know, Musk doing? And ultimately, what happened to Elon?

[Joanna Coles]

What are you hearing about what's happened to Elon?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I am. Elon is, I suppose, running the business, which is in some. Some amount of turmoil.

[Joanna Coles]

But what's happened to America's party, the.

[Michael Wolff]

New party that I Only know what I've read about this, which is that Elon seems to have gotten cold feet or thought better of this, or Vance has talked him off the cliff, or he's biding his time and waiting to see.

[Joanna Coles]

They're all biding their time, aren't they? I mean, again, one looks at Trump and he just. I know that this irritates the White House and it gets under his skin, but he doesn't look healthy. Your point? That they assume he's just going to keel over one day, that this is not a long, slow decline, that it's full tilt until he stops, means that everybody is just waiting to pick up where he is.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I mean, I'm always skeptical of the death watches.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and he looks very robust.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah.

[Joanna Coles]

Because he's may have slowed down, but he's.

[Michael Wolff]

And that is. It's kind of like a Hail Mary, you know, that we have a problem here. This is a catastrophe. Donald Trump. How can we solve it? Well, if he would only die. But I think that the truth is, as politicians and presidents get older and older, which they do because everybody kind of does.

[Joanna Coles]

But he's the oldest president we've ever had.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, no. I mean, I think that we're seeing this, and we'll probably see an old. We may very well see an even older president than that. And so the new norm is different. Old people at that age are not singularly healthy in the way that someone 20 or 30 years old, 30 years younger would be. And they carry on even with swollen ankles.

[Joanna Coles]

And remember when people thought that it was a sign that Obama was getting older because he had gray hair, because the job turned him gray. Okay, now, someone here, H. Vanderpee 578, said that was not Putin in Alaska. How gullible the wild is. It was very easy to see Putin. Yes or no?

[Michael Wolff]

I'm not even going there.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. It's not a bit of a conspiracy theorist there. I think I have a question says Alicia Tomalino. Alicia Tomalino, I have a question. What does Rubio do to stop this insanity? I remember hearing Rubio express a very negative opinion of Putin.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I have no idea what Rubio does about. Apparently nothing at all.

[Joanna Coles]

Nothing at all.

[Michael Wolff]

Or if I had to look inside of Rubio's head, it's, I will fix this all when I am president.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, that's what I think, too. He's just sort of sitting there biding his time, and he's as quiet as he can possibly be. Right. Notice he says nothing I was very struck when they had the leaders over sitting around the table, the European leaders. And J.D. vance, who'd been so aggressive during the first Zelensky meeting, was clearly just silenced. Clearly Trump had said to him, do not speak. And there was a little row of them, Rubio Hegsluth, and none of them said anything. All right, final question. I hope you too bring in some professional psychologists who can explain the behaviour in more depth. It's so deeply rooted and there are so many causes and possibly various reasons for his behaviour. I love Michael's insights. I think you're an amazing interviewer, Joanna. Thank you for that. Didn't know that was coming. I would love to see someone guess with you that can give even deeper insight. Do we know anybody?

[Michael Wolff]

We're as good as you get.

[Joanna Coles]

We're as good as you get. Sorry about that. All right, Michael Wolff, so much fun to go inside Trump's head with you. I wouldn't want to go in there on my own.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I should send you. You should find a way to do.

[Joanna Coles]

That sometimes that would be very scary.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I'm just trying to think it really is worthwhile to sit with him.

[Joanna Coles]

Is it, though?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, no. It's an experience like no other.

[Joanna Coles]

I have never met the man. I've never even been in a room with him, actually. Yeah, I know. Isn't that odd? I spent nearly 30 years in New York. I've never come across him and never been in the the same room, knowingly never went on the set of the Apprentice.

[Michael Wolff]

He never called you at New York Magazine?

[Joanna Coles]

Never called me at New York Magazine.

[Michael Wolff]

Never called me at first. I don't know. There were a couple other people, I think, that got his call, but I was the. I received a lot of his calls to the magazine.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I think he'd probably much rather talk to you than me then, but I've never come across him and I couldn't be more interested come across his children, but not him.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think we should set you up.

[Joanna Coles]

Michael Wolff. What fun. And onwards to our next episode, next Tuesday. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Share this podcast with all your friends. Comment on YouTube please subscribe on YouTube and on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Tell all your friends. Tell all the people in your office. Hell, tell all the people you don't like. Tell all your MAGA friends. Because we've read the transcript, so you don't have to. Thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna von Ersson, and our editor Jessie Millwood and as our first lady, wherever she may be, would have us be beast.

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