This Is The Dark Reason Trump Terrified Graham

Summary

Inside Trump’s Head

Episode: “This Is The Dark Reason Trump Terrified Graham”

Aired: July 15, 2026
Hosts: Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles (The Daily Beast)

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Episode Overview

This incisive episode grapples with the implications of Senator Lindsey Graham’s sudden death and what his relationship with Donald Trump revealed—about power, fear, loyalty, and self-preservation in Trump-era Washington. Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles delve into Trump’s psyche, the transactional dynamics with Graham, Mitch McConnell’s speculation-ridden disappearance from public life, the enduring GOP culture of sycophancy, and parallel tensions within the Democratic Party. The episode is peppered with rich anecdotes, behind-the-scenes tactics, and darkly humorous asides, all in keeping with Wolff and Coles’ candid, provocative tone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lindsey Graham: Power, Fear & Trump’s Leverage

• Trump’s Reaction to Graham’s Death:
  • Trump’s Truth Social post announcing Graham’s death was scripted by aide Natalie Harp, not Trump himself. (02:24–03:31)
  • The performative, exclamation-point-filled style reflects both Trump’s and Harp’s voice, blending teenage informality with Trumpian self-importance. (03:17–03:51)
  • Trump’s statements are less personal expressions and more crafted tools for media and political maneuvering.

“Natalie Harp’s voice and Donald Trump’s voice intersect at some point.”
— Michael Wolff (03:25)

• Was Trump Genuinely Sad?
  • Wolff and Coles debate whether Trump felt any true loss over Graham’s death, ultimately seeing Trump as emotionally distant, more inconvenienced politically than personally rattled. (11:11–12:13)
  • Graham was useful, carrying information and smoothing over situations; his absence is mostly a political, rather than emotional, loss.

“He’s lost a lot of foursome members. I’m sure it does affect him somewhat. But… he’s the President of the United States; he’s dealing with lots and lots of people in a professional capacity at all times.”
— Michael Wolff (11:11–12:01)

• Lindsey Graham’s Dual Role as Source and Sycophant:
  • Graham was candid and interesting, a source to many journalists, including Wolff, often providing nuanced, sometimes contradictory, insights about Trump. (12:23–15:17)
  • Graham understood both the power game and the risks: he was willing to ingratiate himself shamelessly, yet harbored a deep fear of Trump.
  • Trump’s knowledge of Graham’s closeted sexuality was an implicit lever of control—Graham’s vulnerability (and associated fear) made him more malleable. (16:24–18:24)
  • The episode draws an explicit parallel between access to Trump and willingness to “suck up,” noting the cost, shame, and double-edged nature of that loyalty. (20:23–22:53)

“Lindsey Graham was an absolute suck up… an embarrassing suck up. And people within the Trump circle would joke about this. If you needed somebody to reassure the president, you call Lindsey.”
— Michael Wolff (20:23–20:59)

• The Threatening Unknown of Trump:
  • Graham described Trump as “animal-like… you don’t know if he’ll turn on you,” likened to a wild bison—dangerous, volatile, and deeply unpredictable. (16:26–16:43)

“He understood that Donald Trump could… was a very volatile presence who could… if he was unhappy with you, he would take it out on you.”
— Michael Wolff (16:49)

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2. Trump’s Truth Social: Strategy, Manipulation, and Influence

• Most official Trump posts are authored by Natalie Harp; posts are powerful levers for insiders and outsiders alike.
• Posting is often transactional, used to promote allies, punish enemies, or drive media narratives.
• Both Wolff and others have actively solicited negative Truth Social posts from Trump to boost book sales or political moves. (09:12–10:44)
• Truth Social’s reach is limited (“4,000 likes”), but its content regularly filters outward via mainstream media. (03:51–04:32)

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3. Succession Rituals: Senate “Nepo” Traditions

• Discussion of the tradition where deceased senators’ family members (e.g., Lindsey Graham’s sister, “Darlene”) fill unexpired terms—a vestige of political nepotism but mostly ceremonial and expedient. (05:59–08:03)
• These moves are more about maintaining voting consistency than genuine inheritance of power.

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4. The Mitch McConnell Mystery

• Speculation swirls about McConnell’s prolonged absence, with some (e.g., Laura Loomer) peddling rumors about his supposed “vegetative state.” (25:09–27:18)
• Wolff suggests the reality is less sinister: McConnell is in poor health, his family is managing his final days with dignity, and Trump’s camp is enjoying twisting the knife.

“Donald Trump hates Mitch McConnell… so I think he’s now torturing Mitch in his final moments.”
— Michael Wolff (28:10)

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5. The Forever War: Iran, Hormuz & Trump’s Stalemate

• The Strait of Hormuz is closed again, the US is enmeshed in an ongoing, repetitive conflict with Iran despite Trump’s “no forever wars” promise. (28:28–30:47)
• Trump’s decision-making is framed as reactive, narrow, and fundamentally lacking in nuance—characterized by bravado, petulant exchanges (“we’re gonna charge—no, I’m gonna charge,” i.e., “fuck you—no, fuck you”), and a limited vocabulary repeating itself through each new crisis. (31:07–31:55)

“Limited range of understanding gives him a limited range of options … always on repeat … the same language for any situation, the same 11 words used over and over again.”
— Michael Wolff (28:28–31:55)

• The electoral consequences are considered mostly in terms of gas prices rather than foreign policy sophistication. (34:19–34:56)

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6. Democratic Disarray: Sanders, the 'Bernie Cadre,' and the Party’s Future

• The Democratic establishment is unsettled by primary victories of leftist, often young and politically untested, “Bernie Sanders people.” (35:10–38:32)
• Bernie Sanders is credited as the “uncrowned king of the Democratic Party,” a singular figure whose ideological offspring are beginning to dominate, even as Sanders himself ages out of top-tier candidacy. (40:23–41:15)

“There is meaning here, there is power here and power that the Democrats are ignoring … this Bernie Cadre is…what’s rising because of Bernie, because he is the uncrowned king of the Democratic Party.”
— Michael Wolff (40:23–41:13)

• Observations on Sanders’ Jewish, leftist, old-school roots and how his movement’s young adherents often overlook or are disconnected from these traditions. (38:32–40:23)

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7. The Kentucky Shuffle: Beshear’s Calculus

• Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear is tentatively exploring options for filling a possible McConnell Senate vacancy, caught between local loyalty, national profile, and shifting statutes. (41:22–44:18)
• Coles and Wolff muse on the challenge of being a Democrat in a red state—success may require “boring people to death,” as with Beshear’s unremarkable public persona. (45:08–46:07)

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8. The Trumpian Communication Model: Mimicry and Branding

• Trump’s casual, even adolescent, posting style (overuse of exclamation points, lack of grammar) is both derided and credited for its accessibility and unexpected resonance. (46:07–46:52)

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9. Audience Questions, Humor, and Podcast Culture

• Brief banter includes mailbag notes on Wolff’s eyebrows, limericks, Trump’s verbal gaffes (calling Japan the “Islamic Republic of Japan”), merch ideas, gifted coasters, and commissioned portraits. (48:01–54:10)
• Notable humorous exchange:

  Joanna: “What happens to a liar when he dies?”
  Michael: “He lies still.” (50:21–50:28)

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10. Looking Ahead: Election Fraud and Todd Blanche Hearings

• Anticipation of Trump’s impending national address, expected to center on “election fraud” and preemptively undermine confidence in 2026 voting.
• Deeply skeptical take—Wolff and Coles view this as a “loser issue,” yet acknowledge its continued resonance for Trump’s base. (54:10–54:26)
• Closing preview of tomorrow’s Todd Blanche hearings, with parallels drawn to Graham’s opportunistic proximity to power. (54:26–55:32)

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Notable Quotes

• “Lindsey Graham was an absolute suck up. He decided that this was how he was going to play this, sucking up…it was the entire thing. That was what you…had to do in order to get more access, in order to sustain access.”
  — Michael Wolff (20:23)

• “You have to suck up to Donald Trump. At the same time, he’s showing contempt for you sucking up. So how do you navigate that without killing yourself?”
  — Michael Wolff (22:27)

• “Would you like to look at the portrait that someone did of me? … It’s a portrait of me. And the portrait of you is coming now.”
  — Joanna Coles (53:13)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Topic | Timestamps | |-------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------------| | Lindsey Graham’s death & Trump’s response | 00:30–08:03 | | Truth Social strategy, media manipulation, and post authorship | 02:24–04:32 | | Succession customs in Congress | 05:59–08:32 | | Graham as source, fear of Trump, and sexual vulnerability | 12:23–18:24 | | Sycophancy, access, and personal cost | 20:23–22:53 | | Mitch McConnell: rumors, reality, and Trump’s schadenfreude | 25:09–28:10 | | Forever war in Iran, Trump’s narrow range and repeat strategy | 28:28–31:55 | | Gas prices, election, and foreign policy resonance | 34:19–34:56 | | Democratic Party, Bernie’s legacy, ascendant leftist wing | 35:10–41:13 | | Andy Beshear, Kentucky politics, and gubernatorial tightrope | 41:22–46:07 | | Trump’s communication model and branding (exclamation points) | 46:07–46:52 | | Listener questions, podcast culture, and humor | 48:01–54:10 | | Preview: Election fraud speech & Todd Blanche hearings | 54:10–55:32 |

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Memorable Moments

• The candid acknowledgment by Wolff of soliciting negative Trump posts for publicity (“I’ve gotten Trump to say terrible things about me because it helps sell books.” – 09:12)
• Wolff’s raw, unsparing analysis of Graham’s relationship: “He was willing to be Trump’s caddy if it got him what he wanted…but I felt very clearly he was afraid of Donald Trump.” (15:17–16:24)
• Joanna’s wry comment on Trump’s online style: “Surely this isn’t Donald Trump’s voice with three exclamation points. It feels like a teenage girl. It feels like Natalie Harp’s voice.” (03:17)
• The discussion of “Nepo” Senate seat successions as both American tradition and political absurdity.
• Humor around Team Trump’s social media artistry—Trump as Jesus, Jon Ossoff as Pee Wee Herman, etc. (05:10–05:21)
• The sardonic “I am not crazy” campaign slogan suggestion for Andy Beshear. (48:01)

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Conclusion

Wolff and Coles guide listeners through the personal and political fallout of Graham’s death, peeling back layers of hypocrisy, fear, and self-interest at the heart of Trump’s circles. With sprawling, witty, and deeply informed banter, they expose not just the transactions of power but the personal frailties that underpin them—leaving listeners with a sense of both the high stakes and the dark comedy of American politics in 2026.

Transcript

[Michael]

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[Joanna]

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[Michael]

I felt very afraid of Donald Trump. I don't think that there's anybody in Washington at any informed level who was not aware that Lindsey Graham was gay. But Lindsey Graham was also in the closet. What did that mean to Donald Trump? I'm not sure that it meant anything more to Donald Trump than he had something on Lindsey. Lindsey Graham was an absolute suck up. He decided that this was how he was going to play this sucking up with it was the basic price of admission. It was the entire thing. That was what you, you had to do in order to get more access, in order to sustain access. It was just a question of how much sucking you were willing to do.

[Joanna]

Michael. Joanna, why are we being quiet this morning? Because. Do we? Death.

[Michael]

Because of death.

[Joanna]

Because of death. Okay, so the slush fund. Big slap in the face for Trump from the Miami Judge Mitch McConnell dead or alive hostage videos. Lindsey Graham definitely dead and has I guess my first question for you inside Trump's head, which is where we go three times a week to poke around and see what's left in there is. Well, let me read the truth social that Donald Trump put out on Sunday or maybe it was Saturday night. Senator Lindsey Graham, one of the greatest people and senators I have ever known, is dead. He was always working and was a true American patriot. Lindsey will be greatly missed. 3 exclamation points. Details and arrangements to follow. So sad. Single exclamation point. Is it possible that Donald Trump is actually sad about.

[Michael]

Well, let me. I think my answer to that would be, involves the setup to this, to how a truth one of these posts gets done. And this is a definitely, I will guarantee this. It's a Trump saying, natalie, we need a post on Lindsey. That's it. So that's the sentiment here.

[Joanna]

Okay, this is interesting because I had an argument with someone over the weekend about this and I said, why can't we have A president that just puts out something that feels solemn and slightly formal. And he was like, you've missed the point. This is how people talk. This is why people love Donald Trump.

[Michael]

Well, yeah, and it's a sort of a double point here. He gets this because they know that the staff, Natalie particularly knows that they have to write in Donald Trump's voice.

[Joanna]

But surely this isn't Donald Trump's voice with three exclamation points. It feels like a teenage girl. It feels like Natalie Harp's voice.

[Michael]

It is Donald. Well, Natalie Harp's voice and Donald Trump's voice intersect at some point.

[Joanna]

Right?

[Michael]

Because she does. I'd say she does. The overwhelming number of posts are from Natalie. I mean, there are a lot of the posts that are from him, but I'd say. Because considering how many posts there are, I'd say she does three quarters of the posts.

[Joanna]

So she's the social media whiz behind him. What's interesting is how few people are on truth social. I mean, obviously his truth socials get picked up, but it's amazing how he'll post something like this. And there's 4,000 likes. It's very small.

[Michael]

We've discussed this before. I mean, this was a constant theme during the campaign because he would post in this obsessive, crazy, pathological fashion, and the staff would say, oh, my God, thank God he's not on X or Twitter.

[Joanna]

Oh, interesting.

[Michael]

Because nobody would say, God, no one sees this, right?

[Joanna]

Except they do see it now.

[Michael]

Well, no, actually they don't. There are so many. So all we see is those few that actually surface in the media. Otherwise you can't. First thing, you can't keep up with them. And secondly, the entire media would be nothing but Donald Trump's posts. Otherwise.

[Joanna]

Well, you can clearly see who's got inside his head over the weekend, because there was a post of Jon Ossoff looking like. Well, it said Pee Wee Herman. And then there's a picture of Pee Wee Herman and Jon Ossoff. And then there was a picture of Alfred E. Newman on the COVID of Mad next to James Tallarico with one of his teeth blacked out.

[Michael]

Okay, that's Natalie.

[Joanna]

Okay.

[Michael]

I mean, she's the art. Donald Trump doesn't do art.

[Joanna]

Right. So when he's posting himself as Jesus, that's Natalie, is it?

[Michael]

Totally Natalie. Yes.

[Joanna]

Right. Interesting.

[Michael]

And then the other thing. And it's interesting, I want to come back to the question of whether Donald Trump is upset about the death of his friend, his golfing buddy. Right?

[Joanna]

They golfed over 150 times.

[Michael]

He has a lot of dead golfing buddies. But those foursomes, it's just, you know,

[Joanna]

there's always one person that's not able to come. That's very, very curb your enthusiasm line.

[Michael]

But, but the, the. So this idea that Lindsey Graham's sister is going to replace him in the.

[Joanna]

Darlene.

[Michael]

Darlene in the Senate, basically take up his stub term. And then the. So I think that we're explaining that that is being explained as Donald Trump posted a truth social about this and that's why it happened. That's not why it happened.

[Joanna]

Why did it happen?

[Michael]

Well, first thing, it always happens. Nobody wants to have. Have. Nobody wants an empty seat. Nobody wants a. The process of calling a special election takes X amount of time. They want somebody who will cast the reliable.

[Joanna]

Well, they want someone in the confirmation hearings this week who's going to vote for Todd Blanche.

[Michael]

Exactly. So they do this. So that's the. And it's also a kind of a tip of the hat thing. Everybody likes this. The voters in South South Carolina. It's a death thing.

[Joanna]

It's a death thing. I think it's remarkable that so many. I mean, I was looking it up. I think 38 widows have followed their husbands into their seats in the House. And then eight senators.

[Michael]

Yeah. No, it's a commonplace thing. There's actually even. There is a West Wing episode.

[Joanna]

There is.

[Michael]

About this.

[Joanna]

Yes. Okay. I just want you to know that were you to have a crash on the jitney and to sadly be no longer with us, which I hope doesn't happen, I'm not going to be calling your sister. I like your sister very much. I've met her. I don't think that she would be as good as you are at going inside Trump's head.

[Michael]

You would call my wife in a heartbeat and she would fill in and

[Joanna]

no one would remember me. Yes. Okay. Victoria, we have a plan B should something happen to Michael.

[Michael]

But the more this is more about not about that custom, which is a weird custom. You're absolutely right. But it is a totally weird custom.

[Joanna]

It's the epitome of Nepo or Nepo. Is it Nepo or Nepo? Nepo.

[Michael]

It is Nepo. But yeah, I'm not sure it's not because it's not really. Nobody is really getting anything. It's just literally, you're a placeholder. Give me the family. It's a political tip of the hat. It probably actually doesn't happen if the particular. Whoever dies is a Hated person in the state, then they probably do something else. But, you know, names in politics are a big deal.

[Joanna]

Brands, brand names.

[Michael]

But this idea that this came from him. I mean, I just want to. I think it's important to understand these truth socials, and these truth social posts are essentially a major tool of this administration, of Donald Trump. This is all lobbying. People call him. They're online. Can he do a truth social post about this? Can he do a truth social post about that? We need this. We can't get this through. We can't get this on the media agenda unless he does this.

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[Michael]

I myself have gotten truth social posts about myself. I've gotten Donald Trump to say terrible things about me because it helps sell books.

[Joanna]

Whoa. You've got Donald Trump to say terrible things about you because it sells books? So you've tweet about my book? I need you to truth social about my book.

[Michael]

Yes, yes. It would be more complicated than that. I will go to someone I know in the White House who then will do me a favor and then will suggest to Trump that, you know, I'm a terrible person.

[Joanna]

And so, for example, with all this.

[Michael]

So this is all. Everybody in the. So remember this. This is all. Everybody is kind of. There's an act of manipulation going on.

[Joanna]

Right. So everybody's working it at all times. So, for example, with your first book, when. I think he asked for an injunction, didn't he?

[Michael]

Yes, that was legitimate. I mean, was not legitimate, but that was spontaneous.

[Joanna]

Okay, that was spontaneous. But otherwise, you've just been hustling the President like everybody else.

[Michael]

Yes, of course. I mean, there's a few others that he's just. He's expressed genuine ire, but otherwise, it's people calling, you know, somebody calling me. I mean, there's one person from the White House who. I remember there was a particular post about me, and then this. And then the person in the White House called me and said, you owe me.

[Joanna]

Interesting. So can we just get back to my first question, please? Is Donald Trump sad? Is he impacted emotionally, psychologically, by the sudden death of someone who does appear to have been a friend or at least a golfing buddy over 150 games? Is he impacted emotionally and psychologically by Lindsey Graham dying? I mean, the man was nine years younger than.

[Michael]

I mean, I wouldn't go. He's not breaking down about it, but, I mean, I think so, yeah. I mean, you know, yes, he's a golfing buddy. I think every. He's lost. Literally. It's true. He has lost a Lot of forsome members. And it does, you know, I'm sure it does affect him somewhat. But, you know, he's the President of the United States. I mean, let's not even see this exactly in a. In a Donald Trump context. He's the President of the United States. He's dealing with lots and lots and lots of people in a professional capacity at all times. So how much? Yeah, I'm sure he's.

[Joanna]

But wasn't Lindsay someone who was very useful because he was carrying information back and forth?

[Michael]

Yeah, but that becomes a political setback. Yes, I'm sure that he sees this as a political inconvenience.

[Joanna]

Right. So you knew Lindsey Graham. Thoughts?

[Michael]

I liked Lindsey Graham. I mean, I liked him a great deal, actually. Now, I think I would say that about anyone who talks to me in a relatively unvarnished way. So you have a kind of relationship with sources that, that develop over. How open are you going to be with me? It's not only how open, but how informative. You speak to a lot of people, you call up a lot of people, then you get the same old stuff. You didn't really even have to speak to them. You could have just imagined what they would say. Lindsey Graham. I would speak to him and then he would say something interesting, something funny, something, you know, a slight turn on what you're asking him about. Oh, I hadn't thought. Thought about that. And he would do it. He had the ability, you know, and he didn't really know me. We didn't know each other very well, but he had the ability to kind of create that kind of, that kind of rapport. And he was, I think. I think it was. And I think this is an important

[Joanna]

source for your books, is that what you're saying? Yeah.

[Michael]

Yes, he was a source, but in fact, I think he was everybody's source.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

I mean, I've often thought that in Washington there are only five sources, and they are the five sources for everybody.

[Joanna]

Right. They're just people who decide to talk.

[Michael]

There are people who decide to talk. There are people who like to talk. There are people who see an advantage in, in having their story, their version being top of mind. You know, there was Woodward and Bernstein story about Deep Throat, and it came out that Deep Throat was. They identified him as Mark Felt, who was, I think, an assistant director of the, of the FBI. But the truth is Mark Felt was everybody's source during Watergate. So that was a kind of one of those interesting constructs. I mean, we've given him a name and He's Deep Throat and parking lots and all that.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

But everybody. Mark Felt, talked to everybody during that period.

[Joanna]

Okay, so Lindsey Graham was the source of some of the stories about Trump. Did Trump know and mind.

[Michael]

I don't know. That's an interesting question, and I don't know the answer. And remember, Lindsey Graham, it wasn't as if he was necessarily dissing the president. I mean, he was giving a. I would describe it as giving a full picture. He had a sense of the contradictions going on there. He had a sense of the game, of playing the Trump game. And I would say two things about Lindsey. There are two ways of looking at this, that. Here was a guy clearly who enjoyed playing the game. He was a guy who clearly understood the game. Here was a guy who very much. He was willing to be Trump's caddy if it got him what he wanted. That was the game. So I put that on one side. The other side is I felt very clearly he was afraid of Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

Go on.

[Michael]

And he would talk about this about Trump was. I remember once he described Trump in animal like, you don't know. I mean, it's like a wild animal. You don't know if he'll turn on you.

[Joanna]

Like the bison in Yellowstone that just tossed that poor grandfather in the air. Yes.

[Michael]

And Donald Trump kind of looks like a bison.

[Joanna]

Yes. We've always said he looks like a bison. Right.

[Michael]

But I felt that. I felt that that was. That he understood that he was playing with fire. He understood that Donald Trump could. Was a very volatile presence who could. Who could. If he was unhappy with you, he would take it out on you. And, you know, behind this, there was this thing. So Lindsey Graham was by, you know, I don't think there's anyone. There was no question of. There didn't. I don't think that there's anybody in Washington at any informed level who was not aware that Lindsey. Lindsey Graham was gay. But Lindsey Graham was also in the closet. You know, he's 71.

[Joanna]

He was gay. Did he have relationships? Did he have lovers? Or was he gay but didn't act on it?

[Michael]

No, I think he probably had relationships. I don't know. But certainly that was the. That. That was always the discussion. So there was always the thing. And within. This was also a discussion within the Trump circle. So this was very known. And what did that mean to Donald Trump? I'm not sure that it meant anything more to Donald Trump than he had something on Lindsey.

[Joanna]

And the thing that you're saying he had on him was that he was gay. He knew he was gay.

[Michael]

I think that there was. Yeah. I mean, again, this is Lindsey Graham. He never said I'm gay. And Donald Trump is gonna, you know,

[Joanna]

if I'm gonna use it again.

[Michael]

Yeah. If I don't suck up to Donald Trump, I'm screwed. Never, of course, never anything like that. But again, that sense of, of Donald Trump as this, as this, as this unknown, a constant variable. What is he going to do?

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[Joanna]

And Lindsey Graham having something that he was vulnerable over because one assumes that, of course, or certainly when he first got elected, obviously less so now. But representing South Carolina.

[Michael]

Yeah. No, and even now, I think it's, you know, I mean, 71 years old and you haven't fessed up to this.

[Joanna]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I mean, I think now Lindsey Graham obviously also knew the game. People are, this is politics. This is power at a very high level. If people will do anything to you, nothing is off limits in this context.

[Joanna]

Well, and you will also do anything. Right. So he would swap 180. I mean, what was it Donald Trump said 40 minutes after Lindsey Graham said January 6th is enough, enough is enough. I'm out. 40 minutes later, he called Donald Trump and said, oh, that wasn't me. I didn't really mean it. I don't know why I said, oh,

[Michael]

yeah, no, no, no. And we shouldn't. I mean, Lindsey Graham was an absolute suck up. He decided that this was how he was going to play this, how he had to play this, how he, how, how to. What advantage it would be to play it this way. An absolute suck up. I mean, an embarrassing suck up. And people within the Trump circle would joke about this. You know, if you needed somebody to reassure the president, you call Lindsey, Lindsey Coves and tells the president, you know, sir, you're fantastic.

[Joanna]

Yeah, right. And also it got him what he wanted, which is proximity to power. I mean, it's such a, it's so evident, it was so open, his constant changing of positions that this is what you had to do to get proximity to power to Trump.

[Michael]

Yeah, no, and I think it makes the point the more you suck up. So suck up, sucking up was not just the price of, you know, the basic price of admission. It was the entire thing. That was what you, you had to do in order to get more access, in order to sustain access, in order to, for your access to be greater than anyone else's. It was just a question of how much sucking you were willing to do.

[Joanna]

But we've also discussed how Trump doesn't like Trump wants people to suck up, but he also despises people who suck up.

[Michael]

Very complicated. It's a complicated thing how to do. And I often think that that was why Lindsay and so many others then would have a parallel life. Talking about, I was just going to

[Joanna]

say, right, that the way that you offset the suckuppery and the shame of the suckuppery is that you then try and tell truths about Donald Trump.

[Michael]

No, no.

[Joanna]

Undermine him in a different way.

[Michael]

So it's very, you know, I mean this is not so, it's not, understand this, it's not just, oh, all I have to do is suck up to Donald Trump and then I get what I want. And that's just, that's basic and easy. It's very difficult. Cuz you have to suck up to Donald Trump. At the same time he's showing contempt for you sucking up. So how do you navigate that without killing yourself?

[Joanna]

And did Lindsey Graham.

[Michael]

Maybe he did, maybe I don't think he did.

[Joanna]

I think it was an aortic schism.

[Michael]

No, but if we say he might have, we just said, you know, that'll be conspiracy clicks.

[Joanna]

Right?

[Michael]

A whole new business.

[Joanna]

A whole new business. So before we go onto the ultimate conspiracy going on right now, which is Mitch McConnell, did Lindsey Graham like Donald Trump? Was he a necessary evil for Lindsay to get as close to power as he could?

[Michael]

And maybe Donald, I don't think really like is a consideration in this context. He's the President of the United States. He's capable of giving you anything that you want, of extending you power beyond your wildest dreams. No. So you don't, you don't really think in terms of liking. And if you were forced to think in terms of liking, no, you would say, no, this guy's a monster.

[Joanna]

And do you think he will get his Russian sanctions reward in heaven? No, I wasn't going to say that. I was going to say do you think he will be able to get his Russian sanctions bill through? I mean that was his plan for the week.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, death is often. Often helps you in these things. Yeah. People. It's another death tip. We have to give this for the memory of Lindsay.

[Joanna]

So Darlene will step in for Lindsay, and she and Richard Blumenthal from. Senator from Connecticut, who is working on it with him, will get it through.

[Michael]

I'd say there's a good chance. Yeah.

[Joanna]

Okay, so next question. Given the Nepo. The Nepo nature of American politics, should Elaine Chao just step in for Mitch McConnell at this point?

[Michael]

No. Well, he has to be dead.

[Joanna]

Well, does he have to be dead or couldn't he just step aside? I mean, he doesn't seem to be speaking. That's the weird thing. Why didn't they just release a video? Everybody has a cell phone. It's very straightforward. Reopens the conspiracy.

[Michael]

Yeah. There is no conspiracy. This is only a conspir that you and others have created. This is a. I haven't created this.

[Joanna]

Laura Loomer.

[Michael]

Laura Loomer.

[Joanna]

Okay.

[Michael]

This is.

[Joanna]

This is.

[Michael]

Yeah, this is the click conspiracy. Let's go to something that probably.

[Joanna]

I don't think it's a click conspiracy.

[Michael]

Much more basic here. The guy is in terrible shape. He's at the absolute end of his career. Nobody wants to say to him, now, put this on him. At this point, you're out. You're in such bad shape. I think that this is just a kind of a. A courtesy moment, which his family especially is observing, and they're saying, we don't care about this. We don't care what people say. Our only concern is this guy is suffering. He's had a long career. He doesn't deserve this. And we are trying with as much dignity as possible, and there isn't much letting this run its course. And we don't care about Trump and who we really hate, actually. And we're not really thinking about the Senate. We're not thinking about the business of the Senate or the business of the country. We're just thinking about Mitch, our husband or father or whatever.

[Joanna]

But his team is actually putting out statements saying Mitch is very much engaged. He's. You know, we're having discussions about Iran, which we're going to come onto in a minute.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, yeah, he's probably. There's some. On some basis, he can speak. Yeah, well, I think that he can probably listen and probably is somewhat responsive. Yeah, I mean, I think he's. He's quite a. He's in bad shape. He has been in bad shape for a long time. So this doesn't should not come as a surprise. And he is just. They're just trying to run out the clock with as much sensitivity to him as possible. So that's the conspiracy sensitivity. Okay, so human sensitivity.

[Joanna]

So Laura Loomer, not one for enormous amounts of sensitivity, it appears, says he's in a persistent vegetative state, that she put this out on social media and that the White House, who will call her if she's gets things wrong, hasn't called her about this.

[Michael]

What do you mean the White House will call her if she gets things?

[Joanna]

Well, she says that she speaks to

[Michael]

the President sometimes does what the President wants. So this is. She's acting. Remember, Donald Trump hates Mitch McConnell. I would say right up there with all of the people that he hates. Mitch is maybe right at the top of that list. And so, yeah, so I think he's now torturing Mitch in his final moments.

[Joanna]

Interesting. So Trump is torturing Mitch.

[Michael]

Yeah, clearly.

[Joanna]

I don't know how we continue talking about this, but the Strait of Hormuz is closed again. The memo of understanding seems to be disintegrating as we speak.

[Michael]

I mean, this is a kind of. No, no. I mean, I was thinking about this. We have to. This is a. This is yet another seminal moment in this ongoing war that Donald Trump can't extract him or the United States from. So, and we just go in these cycles again, it's just on repeat, you know, and Trump is always on repeat because he has such a limited range of intelligence. Finally, this is what this is about. Limited range of understanding gives him a limited range of options. And so we're back again to where we were, if not last week, then the week before and several, many, many weeks before that, saying that this is a. Donald Trump who promised no forever wars is now in, obviously is a forever war.

[Joanna]

Do you think he regrets it?

[Michael]

Yeah, Well, I think he regrets being in a forever war. Yeah. Does he? But I think you're asking a different question. Does he believe that what he's done, that he made errors that have gotten him into this position and gotten the United States into this position? No, he never acknowledges an error, doesn't seem to have the capacity or the self awareness to appreciate that he might have made an error, this is just again, someone else's fault.

[Joanna]

So he really does seem to be in a situation where the memo of understanding has evaporated. Each side is attacking the other. Again. This could go on and on.

[Michael]

That's what's called a forever war. Yeah. And again, clearly of his making the memo of Understanding meant all things to all people. Therefore, the Strait of Hormuz, that point of vulnerability which has, from the beginning of this war, has stood out. And now this other weird thing of him charging.

[Joanna]

Right. So both sides now want to charge for the Strait of Hormuz. Right. After Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, head of National Security, Governor of Venezuela, whatever he is, all his different jobs, said it's against international law for anybody to charge.

[Michael]

But this is a Trump thing, and you can see how he does. We're gonna charge. No, I'm gonna charge. You know, it's that old fuck you. No, fuck you.

[Joanna]

Right. So he's learned his foreign diplomacy from watching Scorsese movies.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, it's just again, that lim, you know, to understand the limitations here, just the limitations of intelligence, which is what it is. I mean, he can't. He just doesn't know what to do. He reacts in such a narrow fashion to almost anything. Think about his language. The language is always narrow. The same language for any situation, the same 11 words used over and over again.

[Joanna]

Right. Well, I feel like we're using the same words over and over again for the straight of Hormuz, because what else are you supposed to say? I mean, feels like we're now stuck in this, as you say, forever.

[Michael]

Well, we, of course, are stuck. And we're stuck because of his limitations in getting us into it and then getting us out of it.

[Joanna]

Well, and also his sort of obsession with being what he thinks of as the smartest man in the room when in fact, they've fired all the smart people who had a sense of nuance and who'd negotiated with Iran before.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, which wouldn't make any difference because remember, he doesn't listen to anyone.

[Joanna]

Right, okay. All right.

[Michael]

That's why he fires these people, because they try to tell him things and

[Joanna]

he doesn't want to hear. Doesn't want to hear. All right, so are the Democrats going to be able to articulate this in the run up to the election? And we mustn't forget that Trump is addressing the nation on Thursday at 9:00 o', clock, apparently Eastern Time. He's going to talk about election fraud. All. He's basically laying out his campaign strategy, which is to sow doubt in the American election system, which for the most part is pretty damn good.

[Michael]

Yeah, what's the question?

[Joanna]

Well, the question is, the question is, are the Democrats going to be able to use the forever war and show voters that actually five presidents were begged by Netanyahu to get into this war, turned it down, and Trump was the only fool that was bamboozled into it.

[Michael]

I think it's just the price at the gas pump. I think the explanation for this is complicated. And now it's going to be exacerbated by the fact that no one knows where this is, what's happening there now? Are we at war? Are we not at war? Do we have. Do we have a ceasefire? Do we not? And we will have another ceasefire. Remember, this is going to go again and he's going to give whatever it takes. There will be another ceasefire in the next two weeks, three weeks, something like that, and then we will go through this again.

[Joanna]

So it just gets so tedious and boring and people switch off because they're like, I can't stand any more of it. I don't know what's happening. I don't need to understand it exactly.

[Michael]

But they do understand if the price of the gas pump is. Is hurts, then that will have an effect. But Trump also knows this, so he's looking at this too. Say, what do we have to do? What do I have to give them now at this, to maintain the price, to bring the price of gas down. He's already bragging about bringing the price of gas down, as though he's not the reason it did not go well,

[Joanna]

as if he weren't responsible for the lift in the prices. All right, so let's come on then to your I thought quite surprising column on Substack about Bernie Sanders. Please explain.

[Michael]

We're in this moment by what is the Democrats. The entire Democratic Party is in a, you know, holding their skirts around them because of all of these fairly far left socialist candidates are winning Democratic primaries. I mean, unexpected. I'm not sure this should have been unexpected, but it is to the establishment, the party leaders, completely unexpected. And they completely don't know what to do about this. And it now is a situation. Is the Democratic Party Party at war with itself? And I mean, I was thinking about this and I was thinking, who are these people, too? I don't know who these people are. I mean, none of them has seemed to ever have had a job before. And, you know, that one person identified as a grad student,

[Joanna]

and more importantly, none of them have created jobs. Right?

[Michael]

Well, they haven't done anything. They're just literally people who have a, who stand for this ideological position, but with no evidence that they can turn that into accomplishments or legislation or. So you think, what is this? Who are these people? How did they get there? And there is probably an answer. They got There because of Bernie Sanders. They're all Bernie Sanders people. He endorses them. That's how they get elected. And I was interested in it last when Bernie Sanders and AOC did this.

[Joanna]

Oh, the oligarchy tour.

[Michael]

Oligarchy tour. And everybody sort of the Democrats, especially Pooh Bod this and this, they would go around from city to city and get and turn out 25, 30, 40,000 people. So that reminded me of when Donald Trump did this in 2016. And the Democrats said, oh yeah, that's so Bush. The Republicans, so Bush league. No, the Democrats said, this is Bush league stuff. This is not how we do politics anymore. Going from stadium to stadium. What is this, the 19th century?

[Joanna]

We're going to field Hillary with her

[Michael]

policy statements and people who couldn't turn out 30 people. So I was thinking about that and I was thinking that this is this. You know, there is something here, there is meaning here. There is power here and power that the Democrats are ignoring. And over all this period of time, this 10 year, this Trump period of time, there's only one Democrat who has consistently been there, not gone away, continued to build his base. His people have radiated out into the broader political field, electing these people. I mean, all of these. The people who are getting elected are being elected by people who have worked for Bernie.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

So who's the guy? The guy over this long period of time, this one Democrat, It's Bernie Sanders.

[Joanna]

And how old is Bernie now? I want to read one paragraph from it.

[Michael]

He's 84.

[Joanna]

He's 84. So we go 10 years ago, when he first emerged as the unlikely national figure Sanders, age was held against him. Ten years ago, it was held against him even though he was leading a youthful uprising. However, age was hardly his only disqualifier. There was his quixotic socialism, his unreconstructed leftiness, and even more difficult and irritating in grown up politics, his almost belligerent moralism. I love that paragraph. And then let's also talk because there's another very observational point of us here. This is great. There are those of us old enough. This would be me, you to see with some amusement, Sanders as an entirely recognizable figure from a time when lefty Jewishness was, well, leftiness itself of a rather hoary sort. Jewish summer camp, socialist uncles, folk music, and in my case, a brief teen tenure as a member of the ypsl, the Young People Socialist League. It seems somewhat hard to reconcile the Mamdanis and the AOCs and the El Sayeds. That's the guy in Michigan and Chevalier's New York and Egad, the Platners. Though hopefully there isn't more than one with this tradition. Not unlikely. These Sandersniks have little idea that their socialism springs from this Jewish neighborhood. So. Interesting.

[Michael]

Yeah. No, so. And I think that at the end of the day, who is there? Who is the Democrat that rises above all others? You know, and there's a big, you know, this big kind of, kind of search for who is the most ascendant. Who is the ascendant Democrat.

[Joanna]

But you're not suggesting that Bernie Sanders, at the age of he would be 86, would run in 2020.

[Michael]

No, but I'm suggesting that this Bernie Bros. Or these Bernie sisters or this Bernie Cadre is what? Cause Bernie is now too Ola. Probably too old. These people are the replacement of that. They are what's rising because of Bernie, because he is the uncrowned king of the Democratic Party.

[Joanna]

Choice hotels get you more of what you value. Comfort Inn, it's calling your name.

[Michael]

Save on the stay.

[Joanna]

Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct and storiesvilletails.com Uncrowned King. Okay, so your friend Andy Beshear is now making noise. And of course, you think of if the Mitch McConnell situation were happening in California, I think Gavin Newsom would have been having a field day with this. I think he would have been out there, he would have been frantically posting. He would see this as an opportunity for Gavin Newsom to step forward. Andy Bashir is a little bit more reticent. Andy, this could be your moment. But he senses that there is a moment and he might be able to seize it. So he's been teasing us with the idea that he might apply to appoint a special Senator While Mitch McConnell is sitting on the sidelines like this.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Joanna]

He seemed very tentative about it. He told Ms. Now on a Sunday night, which if you want to bury the news or bury an idea, that's a good place to put it, both

[Michael]

on a Sunday night and both on Ms. Now. Well, the guy is running for president. Yes. And somebody said, I mean, this apparently can't happen. So the law was changed. It used to be that the sitting governor could, in the event that there was a vacancy, he could make the appointment. This several years ago was changed, perhaps anticipating Mitch's.

[Joanna]

No. Clearly

[Michael]

decline. And now the law provides for a special election. A special election, I think, relatively soon also.

[Joanna]

Well, I think he can appoint someone. And he's saying that he's not acknowledging the change in the law. So he wants to hold the whole thing up with a legal challenge, which would be an interesting thing for Andy Beshear to do to get on the national radar. There is a moment here for Andy Beshear to break out of his milquetoast good old Kentucky governor and actually take a stand. People might like it. He could make some good trouble.

[Michael]

Well, yeah, possibly. I mean, it's a dicey thing for Andy BESHEAR Because Mitch McConnell is very popular Kentucky.

[Joanna]

It's not dicey in terms of him thinking about his future. He has to make some noise.

[Michael]

Nobody knows who he is. Well, yes, but that's what you have to do when you're a governor of a swing state. You have to balance that. Yes, you can make national noise and become an American liberal hero, but then you're going to have to return to your own. Kentucky votes relatively red state.

[Joanna]

So if you were advising him, as you were summoned to do last summer, to dinner for him or not to advise him, but to share ideas.

[Michael]

Well, share ideas, listen to his ideas,

[Joanna]

listen to his policy paragraphs.

[Michael]

Yes, he's good looking.

[Joanna]

I will say I think he's better looking.

[Michael]

Yeah, no, I think he should probably. I mean he probably. He has to decide what he's going to do.

[Joanna]

Is he the straight Pete Buttigieg?

[Michael]

No, no, Pete is much more charismatic. Pete is a pretty good retail politician. I mean, out there. I mean, he's a.

[Joanna]

But anti. Beshear must be quite good because as you say, he's a Democratic governor in a red state.

[Michael]

Well, I think one of the ways you get to be a Democratic governor in a red state is that you act more like a Republican.

[Joanna]

Well, perhaps people don't know he's a Democrat.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's the point. I think it's. I mean, you bore everyone to death. I mean, I think that can be, that can work and seems to have worked for him. I don't know how you do that. And there's a lot, I mean, right now Andy Beshear and a whole list of other people in the Democratic Party who are not Bernie Sanders but who are in their own way competing with Bernie or being measured against him. You know, what's the, you know, the contrast gainer that is a significant, a significant element of modern politics. Why do we have Donald Trump? Because he managed to look different from every other person in the Republican Party

[Joanna]

and because he put out this tweet about or this truth social about Lindsey Graham that sounds like a teenage girl and it's oddly effective.

[Michael]

Right. So that kind of thing. Can you communicate? Can Andy Beshear communicate? You know, it's a reach.

[Joanna]

Perhaps he should do his version of this. Lindsay will be greatly missed. Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. Literally, what everybody is told in corporate America, never use an exclamation point. It's embarrassing, it's emotional, and of course, Donald Trump does it. So sad. Exclamation point, no space. The lack of grammar in this really irritated me. But maybe Andy Bashir needs to do that about.

[Michael]

Yeah, well, I think Andy Bashir has to figure out how to be. How to be Andy Bashir in a way that is, I guess, surprising to people. I guess that gets attention, which is probably a contradiction in terms. So unless I cannot imagine what makes Andy Bashir president. Not that he would be a bad president.

[Joanna]

He seems like a very intelligent, stableness,

[Michael]

reasonable guy, and I think maybe that's what you try to argue. The country is now run. The world is now run by crazy people. What has happened at this moment in contemporary history is that the crazies have been allowed to rise to the top, and Andy Beshear very much seems not crazy. Okay, that's some campaign. I am not crazy.

[Joanna]

I am not crazy. I am not crazy. All right, so we have many questions. Max, the intern has been collecting your comments and questions, and we've got a few questions I want to address directly with you. First question, Michael, is from someone called David Burton, and it's. I've just got to ask. Does Mick, Odd nickname for you, bleach his eyebrows? I had never noticed your eyebrows before.

[Michael]

No, I think. I think what you would notice is that I don't bleach them, and perhaps I should.

[Joanna]

What color would you bleach? Well, if you bleach them, you're going to bleach them. Blonde?

[Michael]

Yes. I don't know.

[Joanna]

White.

[Michael]

It doesn't.

[Joanna]

David Burton. You didn't tell us. Do you want him to bleach his eyebrows? Someone says, does anyone have the vaguest idea on how to talk to these two? Does that mean we're untalkable, too, or. She's trying to reach us? This is from Kelly Key Sands. Kelly, we have. Well, you've just talked to us, so.

[Michael]

But it might mean something else. It might mean like we're like Donald Trump. You can't. You know, all we do is talk, and we don't let anyone.

[Joanna]

Right. We have a resistance to more information coming in. We totally forgot to comment on, as several people pointed out, but Natalie Brown in particular. Pointed out that we didn't mention the fact that Trump talked about the Islamic Republic of Japan.

[Michael]

And I missed that.

[Joanna]

Well, he did. Well, he did. We miss a lot of it because.

[Michael]

And where did that. Where did he talk about that? Was that in a post?

[Joanna]

It was in. I think it was when he was on the plane. He's always on the plane.

[Michael]

Which plane?

[Joanna]

Well, good question. Air Force Grift Force One. And here is rather a good joke from Lindsey.

[Michael]

Qatari's Grift Force One or.

[Joanna]

Well, Grift Force One is the Qatari plane that we have spent $600 million at this point refitting with all sorts of things. But he got $400 million worth of value from the plane and then he gets to keep it. Or does he? Okay, this is from Lindsay Viath. Quite a good joke, actually. What happens to a liar when he dies?

[Michael]

Well, I see the punchline here.

[Joanna]

Okay, well, give us the punchline. It's a good one.

[Michael]

He lies still.

[Joanna]

I thought that was a good joke. Thank you, Lindsay. We're up for jokes. Actually expands the limerickness of it all. Michael. There is no pro abortion. It's pro choice. Good point out from Lee Dip, but

[Michael]

why do I have to subscribe to someone else's language on this? It's pro abortion. It's like you believe that abortions should be legal. We call it pro choice because we think that that will somehow elide the fact that an abortion is being performed.

[Joanna]

It's taking place. All right, well, you have your point of view. There you go. Lee, this is what happens if you take on Michael. Be prepared for his response. Joanna, I think you display enormous patience dealing with Michael's continual rudeness and dismissiveness

[Michael]

for many, many years.

[Joanna]

For many, many years. Okay, and then final comment for today. Praise for the production team. Yes, great visual design here on YouTube. Best chapter names. Okay, final limerick from edits this week. Trapped for now, in a cosmic glitch, are twin phantoms, Machtaba and Mitch. Perhaps they're still alive. Or does the devil have to decide of his two new arrivals, which is which? Okay, so we've also got some more art projects set in. This is for you. I'll give you a wrapped version, but this is kind of genius. Have a look at them.

[Michael]

And are these.

[Joanna]

This is from someone called Robert.

[Michael]

Are these Robert Fur. Are these coastlines?

[Joanna]

These are coasters. Look how good they are. These are fantastic coasters. Robert says he noticed that we drink, but we don't have any coasters, so

[Michael]

that's because we Have Formica.

[Joanna]

I know we have Formica, but how nice to have a design appropriate coaster. Thank you. And now we have an artist who's been inspired by us and done some portraits. Your portrait is on the way.

[Michael]

How come you don't have an inside Trumps head T shirt?

[Joanna]

Well, we should get inside Trump head T shirt.

[Michael]

I'm not going to wear them, but.

[Joanna]

Well, I would like to wear one. Yeah, I know, we should get one. And so we're, we're, and actually we'd love your feedback on this. We're playing around with the idea of merch and I think we're going to launch an inside Trump's head subscription. Whereas part of the subscription you get a mug.

[Michael]

That's all you get.

[Joanna]

Well, you get access to. You get special access to you.

[Michael]

And me get a full uniform, hat, T shirt, maybe.

[Joanna]

Well, anyway, the point is it's underway. It's underway. Would you like to look at the portrait that someone did of me? And they've done one of you and it's on its way, apparently. It just hasn't. Mine got here first. And this is from Rebecca. I think it's Rebecca Fetone. Anyway, huge. Thanks. I like this. I like this. This is a, It's a portrait of me. And the portrait of you is coming now. The question is, will they be doing a portrait of you as you are now or when you are at school with all your hair? I love that picture we showed people. I think we should show it to people again. We're going to flash it up for people in case they missed you with long hair. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. We'll be back on Thursday with more inside Trump's head and preparing you for the president's speech on what we think is going to be his view on election fraud. And of course, tomorrow, it's so fascinating

[Michael]

that he would pursue this. I mean, this is a loser issue.

[Joanna]

I think it's a loser issue, too. I don't think people believe it, but maybe enough people believe it. I mean, people still think he won 2020.

[Michael]

It's curious.

[Joanna]

And of course, tomorrow, the Todd Blanche hearings.

[Michael]

Oh, we should have gotten to Todd Blanche. That's as interesting. I mean, Todd is a really interesting figure. And again, one of those figures, not unlike in Lindsey Graham. To people who have decided that they have to do this, they have to swallow when it comes to Donald Trump and they're going to get something for that. And they're doing, you know, the Todd Blanche thing is justified on. He's the client. Now, in fact, he is not the client. So that's an interesting thing. The United States is Todd Blanche's client.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael]

But it is very much. I do what the client needs me to do.

[Joanna]

Well, we'll see the hearings start tomorrow and see whether or not any of the Democrat questioners. And amazingly, the hearings start. Chuck Grassley gets to ask the first questions. And Chuck Grassley is, I think, 93.

[Michael]

Well, I'm sure he can still ask a question at 93.

[Joanna]

Well, Mitch McConnell can't.

[Michael]

I mean, they just.

[Joanna]

And he's nine years younger. And then Lindsey Graham was nine years younger than Trump.

[Michael]

And eventually, if you do that one more time, you're going to get to my. Oh, no, actually, Lindsey Graham is at my age. That actually hit me at that moment. I saw that. I thought, first thing, he looks terrible. I think he looks much older than I do.

[Joanna]

No, he does. He does, he does. And he was always rushing off to Kyiv, too. I mean, he'd been there. Or Kiev, however you pronounce it, 10 times. He'd been there 10 times, just come back from a long flight. And that tragic thing of him saying to someone, I don't feel great. Them saying, apparently you need to go and see a doctor. And he was like, I'll go and see a doctor after I've done Meet the Press tomorrow. There's a terrible. Yeah. That a man would rather go on television to discuss, I guess, his plans for Ukraine and getting his bill through than he would go to a doctor. You could argue that he was putting the country first and Zelensky first. Or you could argue that he was actually on television.

[Michael]

Television first.

[Joanna]

Television first. Yeah. He could have gone on the following week. Anyway, that's what happens with an aortic dissection. You don't have much time. I should think a lot of people are panicked by that. I bet there'll be tons of people calling their doctors now.

[Michael]

Yeah. Well, it's that interesting thing that when I was a kid, I remember everyone, they would say, how did that person die? Drop dead.

[Joanna]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And no one drops dead anymore. It's the more the Mitch McConnell slow

[Joanna]

exit, not with a bang, but a whimper.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Michael]

Anyway, on that note.

[Joanna]

On that note, we will see you on Thursday. Okay. You can thank the production team now, Max, the intern. We've actually got a news fellow with us as well this morning. Charlie Sherwood.

[Michael]

Charlie, the news assistant. Ryan, Heather, Ben, Neil.

[Joanna]

They're just making up names. Rachel.

[Michael]

Rachel, Heather, John. John. Pete, Hugh. Hugh.

[Joanna]

All of them. All of them. The entire office. So the good news is, we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support.