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- [00:00]
Host
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Michael Wolff
Bombas are so absurdly comfortable, you may throw out all your other clothes.
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Ad Voice
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- [00:10]
No, this is just how I talk.
- [00:11]
Michael Wolff
And I really love my Bombas.
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Host
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Host
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- [01:59]
Interviewer
Okay, we're back. Michael, say something, please.
- [02:03]
Michael Wolff
Joanna.
- [02:04]
Interviewer
Tuesday's episode was just so full. It was Epstein's visit to see Putin. It was. What does Putin have on Trump? Where can we go today? Except that we promised that we would talk about why Donald Trump can't shut up. It's a pathology.
- [02:19]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. No, and I think just to emphasize what we're trying to do here, the way people, the media particularly, continues to talk about Trump as if he is a, you know, a normal person or at least a normal politician. Politicians function in certain ways. It's all about cause and effect. That's what they do. You can analyze them through a very precise window instead of saying. Because you can't say the New York Times can't run a headline, you know, Trump, there's something wrong with him.
- [02:58]
Interviewer
Well, actually, it could, but it doesn't because they insist on covering it with a special formula which is saved for politics and I think makes politics very dull.
- [03:07]
Michael Wolff
Well, it also fails to understand what's going on here. So let's get a. Get a picture of what. Everyone who has ever spent any time, I mean, the slightest amount of time with Donald Trump, what is the impression that they come away. What do they take away from this? They take away a single thing, take away many things. But the top of the list is he cannot stop talking. And when I say that, I don't mean that as an exaggeration. I don't mean that as a. As something we might say about this gas bag or that gas bag. This is not just gas baggery. This is. There is no breath.
- [03:57]
Interviewer
All right, let's just remind people that this is. Well, where are we going?
- [04:01]
Michael Wolff
Inside Trump's head.
- [04:02]
Interviewer
This is our new podcast. Michael Wolff, the Trump Chronicler, and myself going deep into the dark matter of Donald Trump's head.
- [04:13]
Michael Wolff
And one of the things that when he speaks, what is inside the head comes out of the mouth, and it doesn't. So whatever confusion, chaos churning, past, grievances weaving, you know, comes out, and it doesn't stop. So you will sit with him, and you could sit with him for hours, and you will never, ever, ever have a moment to say anything.
- [04:46]
Interviewer
So does he ever listen?
- [04:49]
Michael Wolff
No. And, you know, when. In the early administration, the first administration, in the early years, and I was sitting there in the White House writing this first book of mine about Trump, and sat there for. For, you know, seven months, and I saw. And everyone at that point in the White House was new to Trump. I mean, he didn't really know anybody in the political world, you know, except Rudy Giuliani and Chris Christie. That was literally it. So everybody kind of came in and it was all new to them. And I remember this kind of watching this and hearing people talk about this, and. And they would say in a kind of puzzled fashion, you know, he doesn't read anything. I mean, really doesn't read anything.
- [05:41]
Interviewer
So he doesn't read intelligence reports.
- [05:43]
Michael Wolff
It's not even. But even that, it doesn't read anything. It's not that he reads synopsises. It's not that he even reads headlines, which some people say, well, he reads headlines. He doesn't. It doesn't. And you could not give him information. Information in written form. And then they would say, you know, this is a big problem. Is the President of the United States probably the most information intensive job on earth? And there was no way to get him this information. And then they would sort of pause and he says. And then say, but it's even more severe because he doesn't listen either. So therefore, the two ways, the only two ways of getting information to someone he had blocked off.
- [06:29]
Interviewer
So he doesn't listen and he doesn't read. Susie Wiles, I was watching her on a podcast, podforce One, with Amanda Devine from the New York Post, and Susie Wiles pushed back on the concept that he doesn't read. And as proof, she said that he's always marking up articles in magazines and newspapers and sending them to the journalist with his kind of.
- [06:54]
Michael Wolff
Well, I can give you my experience with this. So I wrote a piece about. First piece about Trump or in his political career in 2016, just for the Hollywood Reporter. It was for the Hollywood Reporter, and it was a cover story.
- [07:13]
Interviewer
Yeah, I remember you went to his house in Hollywood.
- [07:16]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. And I got one of those things in which he. He wrote on the piece and he said, great cover.
- [07:26]
Interviewer
Right.
- [07:26]
Michael Wolff
His picture, of course.
- [07:28]
Interviewer
Right. Which I'm sure he's got framed somewhere.
- [07:31]
Michael Wolff
So, you know, these are. I mean, Susie Wiles is gonna. I mean, she's paid to say that. She can't say, oh, yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't read anything.
- [07:40]
Interviewer
Do you think he's dyslexic? I mean, his behavior is slightly dis. I mean, the fact that, I mean, lots of people don't read and then they phone all the time.
- [07:48]
Michael Wolff
I think he's more complicated than that. And that's why it's always, I think, not helpful to apply as a narcissist. It's that and Steve Bannon. And I often come back to Steve because, you know, I mean, in the trenches with Trump, and Steve is a smart guy. He came out with some of the better insights about what was going on with, With Trump. He was always kind of like, flabbergasted. But he said, in his view, Trump was waging a lifelong battle against information. He didn't like people to tell him things, possibly likely because he couldn't absorb it or process it very well. And then he had, you know, you know, he had authority issues. So he really didn't like people to Talk to tell him things. He couldn't sit in a classroom. When he had to sit in a classroom, that always ended poorly, and he got bad grades and, you know, and teachers yelled at him.
- [08:58]
Interviewer
And that's why he got sent to military school.
- [09:00]
Michael Wolff
Yes. I mean, it was all a thing, and it was all kind of. Kind of involved with people telling him stuff. And I think probably his parents, too, were always, always doing this. So as a way to prevent people from telling him things, he just talks. I mean, so therefore, it's all one way. It's all broadcast. Nothing comes in. Everything is blocked by this Trump wall of sound.
- [09:32]
Interviewer
Right. So he's on transmit. He's never on receive.
- [09:36]
Michael Wolff
Never. You can literally. You cannot. You cannot stop him.
- [09:43]
Interviewer
I have wondered from time to time, how does Trump go to bed at night? Because it's increasingly obvious Melania's nowhere there. He spends a lot of time on his own. He doesn't appear to have any friends. His colleagues around him all hate him, and they hate each other. When he actually goes into his bedroom at night and he gets into bed, does he. I mean, like, what's going on in here? Is he still talking? Does he talk himself to sleep?
- [10:13]
Michael Wolff
I don't know. I haven't been in the Trump, but.
- [10:16]
Interviewer
Do you think he goes bedroom?
- [10:19]
Michael Wolff
I haven't slept with Trump, which is not the same, by the way. And we will do this some other time with RFK Jr. We'll go to.
- [10:30]
Interviewer
You slept with RFK Jr.
- [10:33]
Michael Wolff
I've slept in the same room as RFK Jr. So we'll go to.
- [10:38]
Interviewer
Was this recently?
- [10:39]
Michael Wolff
No, this was quite a while ago. A long time ago. But it's memorable.
- [10:45]
Interviewer
Okay, I want to hear more about. That's an episode. I assume that Trump falls asleep with the televisions on.
- [10:50]
Michael Wolff
I assume that, too. And he's on the phone, too. So, I mean, I think until the last possible moment.
- [10:56]
Interviewer
So he's talking almost himself to sleep.
- [10:59]
Michael Wolff
He's talking to somebody. I mean, the only thing that I know about Trump's bedtime habits is that during the first administration, he had a lock installed on his bedroom door. And that precipitated a fight with the Secret Service, who actually took it off, demanded it be taken off. And it was, you know, they were. This was a confrontation. And then there was another issue when the White House domestic staff changed his sheets and he had a. Had a fit. What that's about, I have no idea, but.
- [11:41]
Interviewer
Meaning what, that he likes to change his own sheets?
- [11:44]
Michael Wolff
You know, it was one of those things I did Not. I did not want to pursue that beyond.
- [11:49]
Interviewer
Michael, that is a journalistic question. You should have been after that. I would have pursued that. That is very interesting. All right, so he's got this wall of sound. You walk into his office. I mean, you've talked before about the Oval Office and how he sits behind the desk.
- [12:05]
Michael Wolff
Well, that's an easy. Again, something extraordinary. The Oval Office in other administrations has been a kind of, you know, a sacrosanct place and a place of meaning and ritual. And, you know, you're making a point. You're. You're having people into the Oval Office, and you want them to know it. In Trump's Oval Office, it's like a bus station. It's just filled with people. 20 people, 30 people more. They bring in chairs. Almost anyone can come in and sit down. And Trump is behind the desk talking. Talking. It's like a monologue.
- [12:54]
Interviewer
He's monologuing.
- [12:55]
Michael Wolff
Yes. I mean, it is his monologue. And sometimes it's kind of funny, trying to make jokes or then digressing into. You have no idea where. And everybody is sitting there pretending to listen. They're not really. The phones are.
- [13:11]
Interviewer
They're all on their phone.
- [13:12]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, Down. But that's the thing, and that's the idea of proximity. You have to be there because you want to be close to him, but there's no interaction of being close to him.
- [13:27]
Interviewer
But I've often wondered if, actually, with Donald Trump, you don't want to be in the room, because if you're in the room, you're on his radar, and his radar is so unpredictable, and it's picking up signals.
- [13:36]
Michael Wolff
No, absolutely. It's many people, including Jared Kushner. Understood. Don't be in the room. But you're not really. But you're not really in the room in the Oval Office, in these big sessions. I mean, you're just sitting there with literally everybody else.
- [13:59]
Interviewer
So basically, everybody is an audience. Everybody is an audience.
- [14:03]
Michael Wolff
Yes, everybody is an audience. And everybody. He doesn't want to speak to people. He doesn't want you to tell him things. He doesn't want to discuss the issues and problems. And how do we solve this? I mean, if you think about this, being the President of the United States is an incredibly detailed job. I mean, all of these problems are intractable, and you have to parse them on a very incremental basis. Well, that's not something that Trump is going to do ever. So how does he avoid that? And the way to avoid that is that one way is that he doesn't shut up. I mean, I have seen him win. And the great mistake, especially this, is. This is the generals make this mistake. The generals are all kind of McKinsey like people now, and they always bring out the PowerPoints, he's out of the room. So the minute he doesn't last 45 seconds.
- [15:04]
Interviewer
Well, actually, I'm with him on that. I can't bear a PowerPoint, and I didn't enjoy school either. So I'm also. I'm sort of slightly more sympathetic to the sort of rote learning and the, you know, trying to squeeze information into people. But again, it takes one back to your book and this extraordinary dilemma that it was almost as if Trump was going to prison or he was going to the White House. And you think of his friend Jeffrey Epstein. The two of them were best friends for at least 10 years. One of them ends up dying in strange circumstances in jail.
- [15:37]
Michael Wolff
The other ends up in jail in America.
- [15:39]
Interviewer
Okay? So one of them ends up dying in the worst jail in America with all sorts of conspiracy theories around their death, and the other ends up swinging his legs from the President's chair behind the Resolute desk. It's just a remarkable story, which is why I think it has to be told and why I like your way of thinking about Donald Trump as a really remarkable character who stayed on top of popular culture for the last 40 years. He's gone from magazines through television to digital. How does his talking all the time play out on the Apprentice?
- [16:14]
Michael Wolff
At the same time, he's a person stuck in another time. He's stuck in a permanent 1965. I mean, rat Pack Vegas, you know, I think I described that scene during his trial in New York when he gathered all his lawyers together to yell at them and said, have you ever heard of a man by the name of Perry Mason?
- [16:44]
Interviewer
The old television.
- [16:46]
Michael Wolff
All of his references are from another moment.
- [16:50]
Interviewer
But that speaks to people, because there are lots of people in America whose references are also stuck there.
- [16:55]
Michael Wolff
No, and there is Roger Ailes, who is instrumental in the rise of Donald Trump. And Roger Ailes is the founder of Fox News and who led fox News for 20 years, but once said to me, he said, you people, meaning you, I guess liberals, you know, you live in today, whatever. He said, the people I speak to the people Fox News is for, they live in 1965. He said, singled out. And then with a kind of look, he said, before the Voting Rights Act.
- [17:35]
Interviewer
Right.
- [17:36]
Michael Wolff
And it was. And there was. I mean, I think that there's a smart argument there that Culture moves at a different speed and some people move with it, or some people, their culture is on a fast speed, others very much not. We're going to take a break right now for some advertising words I never thought I would save.
- [18:04]
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- [19:15]
Michael Wolff
And we're back to talk about why Donald Trump doesn't ever, ever shut up.
- [19:22]
Interviewer
Okay, so he's got one leg in 1965, but he definitely has one leg in 2025 in terms of truth, social understanding, Twitter, really getting a grip of digital media in a way that no other political figure has managed to do with quite as much effect. You can see Gavin Newsom now, you know, chasing to catch up to some effect, I think. But Donald Trump's remarkable ability to stay on top of the medium that delivers him to an audience, to the public has been crazy. How does his talking all the time, how did that impact him on the Apprentice?
- [20:00]
Michael Wolff
Well, yeah, and remember and always go back to this, and I think it's key. He was the star of a top rated reality television show for 14 years. And, you know, the nature and people who worked on the Apprentice have described this to me as, you know, the Apprentice was a reality show. And reality shows aren't supposed to be scripted, but they are scripted.
- [20:27]
Interviewer
Yeah, of course they're scripted.
- [20:28]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. Except for that show, because he could Never learn a script. You know, again, he would be given a printed matter and would push it to one side. So in order to. So what the show had to do is just run the camera constantly and run the sound, the audio constantly so that. So that they would. And they would amass this. This. I mean, essentially a monologue that went on for all of the hours that they were filming this. And out of that, out of 10 hours, they would construct a tight. Whatever it was, 50 minutes.
- [21:16]
Interviewer
Well, it was very well edited then. Cause you absolutely can't tell. I also feel resistance sometimes to a script. I'm feeling more and more sympathetic to Donald Trump, which isn't.
- [21:26]
Michael Wolff
Well, no, I mean, but give that. Somei mean, there are two questions here. There's Donald Trump as the performer and the communicator, and then there's Donald Trump as the human being. As the human being. Somebody just speaking to you constantly. And who he speaks to is. Doesn't matter. It's undifferentiated. You know, once I sat with Trump and Melania at dinner at Mar? A Lago, and he wouldand he would talk. He would just the story that he. Or the line of thought that he began as you sat down, and then he would continue. He would just turn his head to whatever new person came up to him and keep going uninterrupted. He certainly wouldn't begin again. So it doesn't matter who he's speaking to. And as the people around him remind, always point out, he says the same thing to everyone. This is one of the reasons it's very easy to track what he's thinking.
- [22:35]
Interviewer
But exhausting to be around, isn't it?
- [22:38]
Michael Wolff
Totally. I mean, everybody is. Everybody is on their knees. But the other side of that, the performer side of that, the communicator, you know, I mean, if in contrast to every other politician, the most guarded people in the world, the most phony people in the world, the most scripted people in the world, the most, in their public guise, inhuman people or, you know, not. I mean, the whole thing is to.
- [23:10]
Interviewer
Is to remove their humanness and to not say anything.
- [23:14]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. And so then suddenly Trump comes out and it just comes, you know, whatever he says, it's spontaneous. It's absolutely reflective of what he thinks, feels, what's on his mind. There are no filters.
- [23:32]
Interviewer
And it's why people like him. It's why people vote for him, because they feel. I mean, even if it's phony and he's pretending to be on their side when he's not, they love the Fact that he doesn't speak like a regular politician.
- [23:44]
Michael Wolff
No, no. I mean, no, I was with. Just over the weekend, I was with a Democratic politician who is, I guess, may or may not run for president. And, you know, a totally reasonable person, a person whose ideas you can admire. But every question was a policy paragraph. The whole world was he related to it through the lens of issues without understanding. People don't care about. Issues really are not. They say they care about that, but that is not the principal thing. What the principal thing is, what kind of connection Do I have a connection to you? Are you speaking to me? And Trump has completely mastered this.
- [24:37]
Interviewer
Yeah. And they also speak in jargon. I mean, I've interviewed a lot of politicians over the year, and apart from Yeltsin, actually Boris Yeltsin, who was then president of Russia.
- [24:47]
Michael Wolff
And they were drunk.
- [24:48]
Interviewer
Well, I was going to say he was drunk. He was drunk. So the first line, I said, you know, what are you doing here? He was addressing the European Parliament. And I said, what are you doing here? And he said, I have no idea. I don't know why I'm here. I don't know what I'm doing here. And it was the most wonderful opening to an interview because normally you talk to people and that by the end of their first line, you're just like, oh. And you can't. You can't get anything human out of them because they've just been trained with a centimeter of their life that you cannot actually be human. It's very strange what we've done to politicians and why everybody's so afraid. And given the chaos, and that is.
- [25:29]
Michael Wolff
Part of a media thing, politicians became very afraid that every word was going to be recorded and used against them and repeated. And then Trump broke that paradigm, because the other thing that happened is that the premium became breaking through the media clutter. How do you do that?
- [25:50]
Interviewer
Attention, attention, attention.
- [25:51]
Michael Wolff
And you do that by saying these outrageous things. And instead of that sinking Trump, which everybody thought grabbed them by the pussy. John McCain's a coward, you know.
- [26:04]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [26:05]
Michael Wolff
Suckers and losers, star mothers, you know, they had, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Instead of that sinking him, that made people pay attention to him.
- [26:15]
Interviewer
That's extraordinary. All right, so let me ask you about Melania's letter to Vladimir Putin. She grew up in Slovenia. She's Eastern European. She grew up under the mantle of the Soviet Union. What did you make of it?
- [26:31]
Michael Wolff
I think that this latest letter is actually a dis. A diss at Trump. She's Eastern European. Obviously has long experience and feelings about Russia and Russians and Putin. And she probably sees, you know, her husband bowing down to Putin and it rankles. I mean, it's like, you know, fuck him.
- [27:03]
Interviewer
Interesting. So it was a sort of passive aggressive gesture towards her husband because the letter didn't really say anything. It talked about children and how children should be allowed to run free and have their imaginations.
- [27:15]
Michael Wolff
But, you know, but clearly addressed to the Russians and to Putin and to the fact that, you know, who suffers most in war is children. And also, let's remember that I think one of the subjects that Trump is probably the least interested in and the most averse to is children.
- [27:41]
Interviewer
Well, he sounded irritated this week when he said, I think he was talking to Zelenskyy as Zelenskyy presented a letter from his wife for Melania. And Trump immediately started to open it and Zelenskyy went, no, no, it's actually for the First Lady. But he said, oh, she loves children. She loves Barron. She loves Barron even more than she loves me. And again, this sort of bringing it back to him that, you know, outrageous that a mother would love her son more than she would love Donald Trump.
- [28:11]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, no, I mean, again, I just think, and we have no way of, we're not going to, we're not going to prove this. But if reading between the lines, between the AI lines, I think it's. She's sending a message. I mean, it's always hard to tell. She's always seems to be sending a message. You just, you just can never decipher it. But that's my.
- [28:35]
Interviewer
I'm sending message, message to deciphering. Well, maybe they really don't speak to each other anymore, so they have to triangulate via Putin.
- [28:44]
Michael Wolff
Well, they certainly don't speak often to each other.
- [28:46]
Interviewer
They're not the only spouses to do that.
- [28:49]
Michael Wolff
So. One of my many vivid memories was about a month into the administration, the first administration. That was a moment that I got my first phone call from Donald Trump. And it was that kind of thing. You know, you get a call, is this Michael Wolff? This is the White House. I have the president for you. Which at that moment actually was, you know, one is electrifying, I imagine it's always electrifying.
- [29:26]
Interviewer
And it should be, is the president.
- [29:27]
Michael Wolff
Well, it's less and less as time. Time goes on. But that was still good. And he came on, he came on the phone and then he started to talk. And I was, yes, Mr. President. Yes, Mr. President. I'd never actually gotten to say that before. So that was. I enjoyed that. But then it kept going on and I kept looking at the clock thinking what was going to end any second as the President of the United States. And he went on and on. And then at some point, I just put him on the speakerphone and every of my children, my wife, it's just, the voice is just blasting through the house. And it doesn't end. It literally goes on for. I mean, I had to bring it. I mean, I'm just, I'm the guilt. I'm feeling the guilt. I'm holding the world up.
- [30:27]
Interviewer
One month into his administration. Surely you have more important things to do.
- [30:32]
Michael Wolff
Yes, finally, literally, I brought it to an end. But it would have gone on and on and on. And it did go on. And that is, you know, I mean, I have now grown accustomed to that because I speak to quite a number of people who receive these phone calls from him regularly. And it's one of the ways I can follow exactly what's going on in his head.
- [30:57]
Interviewer
And we're going to take a break for some ads.
- [31:01]
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- [32:05]
Interviewer
And we're back. Of course, I'm talking with Michael Wolff. This is the Inside Trump's head podcast and we are discussing what else Donald Trump. So just to be clear, when he called you or when he's sitting behind the Oval Office desk, he's Just what is he talking about exactly? Is it that?
- [32:23]
Michael Wolff
No, you couldn't possibly be able to say. I mean, he is. It's free association. It's whatever is on his mind at that moment in time, which is not the same as the next moment in time, which is also reflected in this, in a call. So, I mean, it's very important to understand that not only is he talking all the time, most of what he's saying might appear to be nonsense.
- [32:55]
Interviewer
So. And has that got worse when you're talking to people who spoke to him in the first administration who are still receiving the calls, and a lot of them obviously have dropped off that, that calling roster. Do they think he's gotten worse?
- [33:08]
Michael Wolff
Not particularly. I don't.
- [33:10]
Interviewer
It's always been like that.
- [33:11]
Michael Wolff
It's always. Yes. I mean, it just goes on and on and on and on and on in filling the space. And you just have to not make the mistake to try to have a conversation with him.
- [33:24]
Interviewer
I mean, it's very reminiscent of how dictators behave. You think of Stalin, who would talk for hours on end. You think of Fidel Castro, who would literally deliver seven hour lectures to the people. Kim Jong Un, who.
- [33:40]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, no. And Trump, if you've ever seen a Trump rally, right? And there are really two important points to make about Trump rallies. You know, the New York Times description is always kind of darkness at noon, when in fact it's kind of everybody's having a great time, you know, tailgate party, like. But the other thing is, because he's an entertainer and he's having a great time, right? And the thing that you can see is always a sense of disappointment, reluctance when it has to end and this goes on. You know, he'll do 90 minutes, two hours, no problem.
- [34:21]
Interviewer
He's like an old stand up comedian who just wants an audience, right? He wants the energy from the room, he wants to work the. The room.
- [34:29]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, and you can see the way he does. So he's constantly, he's just throwing out things, throwing out, looking for the response. And when he gets the response that he wants, then he just repeats it and repeats it and repeats it. I mean, the level of repetition is extraordinary, which it would be if you have to fill all of this space. And when you're speaking to him one on one, you can hear the same things in the same conversation. I use the word conversation loosely. The same monologue. Three, four, three or four times.
- [35:06]
Interviewer
You know what he should do when he leaves the White House? He should have a podcast. He should have a Podcast.
- [35:13]
Michael Wolff
There's another interesting thing. Go on, I can't lie, is that someone described this to me and I believe, actually this is Steve Bannon again, as that he doesn't really acknowledge a reality outside the sound of his own voice. So it's all. Everything there is going on, and the things that are outside, going on some other place are just not germane in the moment. He is talking.
- [35:43]
Interviewer
So I understand that analysis. And you talked about him as the human being and you talked about him as the performer and the producer, but as president, there are things outside of the reality he has created.
- [35:56]
Michael Wolff
Well, that's why this is incredibly dangerous. Exceptional and dangerous. Yes.
- [36:05]
Interviewer
So in terms of him just trying to understand what's happening with Russia and Ukraine and Europe, is any of that sort of penetrating him other than what's in it for Donald Trump, Possibly. Possibly a Nobel Peace Prize?
- [36:21]
Michael Wolff
No, I don't think so. I mean, yes, he'll get some pent. I mean, the one way to communicate with him is through the television, so. And through the headlines. So whatever the media blowback, he gets part of that. So his constantly, you know, the constant refrain, how's it playing?
- [36:42]
Interviewer
Yeah. We had a story in the Daily Beast on Friday, on Saturday, actually, that he'd gone nuts because the coverage was so bad of the first summit with Putin.
- [36:51]
Michael Wolff
Right. So that's an input that he takes.
- [36:58]
Interviewer
But almost like a performer reacting to his reviews.
- [37:01]
Michael Wolff
Yes, exactly. But in terms of. I'm going to try to independently understand what is happening here and trying to find a context in trying to find a, you know, the baseline from which to work off and understand Putin, for instance, or most basically, I'm going into this meeting with Putin, incredibly important, and I'm going to prepare for that. I should prepare. I have to prepare. He doesn't prepare. So it's always off the cuff. Again, in a way, like a comedian, you know, you're just, you're life and governing is a long riff.
- [37:44]
Interviewer
And of course, we know that Putin prepares.
- [37:50]
Michael Wolff
Do we know that?
- [37:51]
Interviewer
Yeah, I think we do know that. I think we do know that. Oh, goodness me. All right, well, Michael, we'll be back next week, next Tuesday and next Thursday to go further and deeper into Donald Trump's head.
- [38:07]
Michael Wolff
You're going to keep making me say this.
- [38:08]
Interviewer
I am going to keep making you. I'm totally going to make you keep saying that. So somewhere what's. I can. I can hear some. It's Donald Trump talking somewhere. You will always hear the mutterings of Donald Trump talking. I now actually envisage him going to sleep on the phone and just talking slower and slower. And then whoever's on the other line can't tell if he's still there or not. Maybe he snores, I don't know. I just can't imagine him going to bed and having that moment you think most people have as they're wrapping up their day in their head and they're drifting off. What can it be like to be inside his head?
- [38:43]
Michael Wolff
No, and it's an important point. He is on the phone all the.
- [38:47]
Interviewer
Time because he doesn't want to be on his own.
- [38:49]
Michael Wolff
I mean, he needs to be connected to an audience.
- [38:52]
Interviewer
And the ironic thing is the personal audience, the family audience around him, that most people have. Have vanished.
- [39:02]
Michael Wolff
Well, if they ever existed, frankly. You know, I mean, I've often thought, and for, you know, a decade or more, you know, I used to see Donald Trump in New York on a regular basis. I mean, it would seem that every place that I went at night in New York, I would see Donald Trump. So, you know, with the conclusion that he must be always out. Now, he might have thought that about me too.
- [39:31]
Interviewer
I was going to say, I can't believe that you were at Studio 54.
- [39:34]
Michael Wolff
But it was that thing that you saw someone without living a wholly exterior life. And you began, and I think, fairly to doubt was there any interior life here at all? And this was after decades after decade after decade. And I think it's true, and I think it's part of what produced this, shall we say, unique person.
- [40:00]
Interviewer
Oh, we haven't mentioned my T shirt, by the way. You haven't noticed it. I'm wearing it not because I went to Harvard, because I didn't go to Harvard, I'm not one of those people. But because it's got three trigger words on it. Harvard, Kennedy and school. And it was sent to me by Nell Scovell, one of our writers at the Daily Beast. But it's three unlikely trigger words.
- [40:22]
Michael Wolff
My son, my four year old son likes all kinds of. He now has a T shirt thing.
- [40:27]
Interviewer
Oh, he does. He has a T shirt collection. All right. I'll see if I can find a smaller one for him. But I wonder if they will rename the Kennedy center the Melania center, which they've been thinking about.
- [40:38]
Michael Wolff
Well, they damn well should. All right, that's probably part of the settlement.
- [40:44]
Interviewer
Part of the settlement? The divorce settlement.
- [40:47]
Michael Wolff
Not the divorce settlement. The Harvard. The settlement with Harvard.
- [40:50]
Interviewer
Oh, the Harvard settlement. I thought you meant the divorce settlement, which I'm assuming is coming at some point, maybe they don't need a divorce settlement. Yeah. Why would they speak together?
- [40:58]
Michael Wolff
They don't live together.
- [41:00]
Interviewer
Right, Right. And he's mean. He's not going to want to pay her. Not going to want to pay her. Michael, thank you for yet again illuminating the wall of sound that comes wherever Donald Trump is. Okay, we'll be back next Tuesday and Thursday.
- [41:17]
Michael Wolff
You're making me say it again?
- [41:18]
Interviewer
Yeah, I'm making you say it again.
- [41:21]
Michael Wolff
To go inside Donald Trump's head.
- [41:23]
Interviewer
We're going to go back inside Donald Trump's head. We should get danger pay for doing this. So if you have enjoyed this podcast, share it with all your friends. Please leave us a comment on YouTube and subscribe to Inside Trumpshead on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Michael, thank you. And to our producers, Devon Rogerino, assistant producer Anna Von Ohsen, and our editor, Jessie Millwood. And as our first lady would have us say, say this to yourself as you're drifting off to sleep. Tonight, be beast.
- [41:59]
Michael Wolff
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