Trump Going off His Rocker as Judges Say No: Wolff

Summary

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Inside Trump’s Head – Episode Summary

Episode: "Trump Going off His Rocker as Judges Say No: Wolff"
Date: September 5, 2025
Hosts: Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles
Podcast: Inside Trump’s Head

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode delves deep into Donald Trump’s psychological and political response to opposition—specifically, the ramifications when legal institutions, particularly federal judges, say “no” to him. Wolff and Coles analyze the systemic consequences of Trump’s combative style, the evolving American political landscape, threats to democratic institutions, and the uneasy role of opposition within the administration and the courts. The conversation moves from granular policy disputes around tariffs and National Guard deployments to philosophical questions: Is this autocracy, fascism, or the lasting legacy of Trumpism?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Reaction to Being Told “No”

• “The chemistry of ‘no’ for Donald Trump is combustible.” (Joanna Coles, 02:14)
• Wolff recounts the aftermath of a federal court invalidating Trump’s key tariff policies, explaining that tariffs were unilaterally determined by Trump without the usual economic or legislative process.
• White House insiders describe Trump’s response as volatile:
  • “When someone does say no, he flies into a rage. He goes off his rocker.” (Michael Wolff, 05:17)
  • This tendency is longstanding; Steve Bannon advised never to directly oppose Trump.

2. Policy by Exception: Exploiting “Soft Language” in Law

• Wolff breaks down how Trump and his administration justify overreach:
  • They search for legal “soft language,” such as crisis exceptions, to rationalize unilateral actions (e.g., tariffs, National Guard deployments).
  • “The person who can define the crisis is the President of the United States and only him. So this is entirely circular…” (Michael Wolff, 09:43)

3. The Role and Stress on Courts as the Last Check

• Judges are experiencing unprecedented intimidation, both institutionally and personally.
  • “The courts for the first time are in the position of being consistently intimidated by the President and then defied.” (Michael Wolff, 11:31)
  • Concern for judges’ safety: “He calls them out, they get doxed online, it’s intimidating, their families get intimidated.” (Joanna Coles, 12:12)

4. Is This Autocracy or Fascism?

• They grapple with terminology and the erosion of democratic norms:
  • “You have to get to the point and say, yes, this is autocracy. This is fascism in a kind of classic sense of one-man rule…” (Michael Wolff, 13:17)
  • Joanna speculates about whether American institutions will hold: “The systems haven’t held, institutions haven’t held.” (Joanna Coles, 15:47)

5. Performative Actions vs Reality

• Trump’s declaration to put troops in the streets and other shows of authority are often more performative than substantive.
  • “The announcements putting troops in the streets… there aren’t that many troops.” (Michael Wolff, 21:09)
  • Even Trump’s critics in LA “didn’t even know they were there.” (Joanna Coles, 21:20)
• Yet, Wolff warns that Trump’s recent behavior is shifting from mere performance to real, dangerous hubris.

6. Foreign Policy Realignment

• Discussion of the Shanghai conference: Xi Jinping, Modi, Putin, and the implications of Trump wanting to align with authoritarian leaders.
  • “Everything that… has kept world peace for the last 70 years… is no longer operative.” (Michael Wolff, 23:09)
  • “Empowering our traditional enemies, empowering Vladimir Putin…” (Michael Wolff, 24:23)

7. Democratic Opposition’s Weakness

• Democrats struggle to communicate on Trump's terms:
  • “There is…that somebody is understanding that Donald Trump speaks in a different language, that…Democrats have to be responsive in some way that they haven’t been.” (Michael Wolff, 26:28)
  • Anecdote about a “likely Democratic presidential candidate” who is “a complete dweeber” (27:33), underscoring the lack of compelling opposition rhetoric.

8. Trump’s Media & Attention Dominance

• Trump’s constant drama ensures he monopolizes attention, reducing substantive debate, and stifling alternative political arguments.
  • “Attention is the currency of our time…He gets it. Nobody else gets it.” (Michael Wolff, 25:08)
  • Joanna: “The audience has stopped hearing the familiar language of politics and they like what he's saying, right?” (29:09)
  • Wolff counters: “It's not a question of like, it's a question of attention. You don't like a car crash, but you know, you're going to look at it. And that's what he understands.” (Michael Wolff, 29:22)

9. Electoral Prospects & Fears for the Future

• Wolff sees 2026 as a crucial test: “If he loses his majority in the House in 2026, then that would seem to me a new ball game. However, of course, he's going to do everything possible...to construct a rationale for interfering in this election in his favour.” (Michael Wolff, 16:58)
• Coles worries about both violent and systemic subversion if Trump’s power is threatened.

10. Audience Question: How Worried Should We Be?

• Coles: “We have to be worried.” (33:19)
• Wolff: “We have to be worried.” (33:20)
• They close the episode acknowledging a collective sense of alarm and urging listeners to reflect and respond.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can’t say no to him…And when someone does say no, he flies into a rage. He goes off his rocker.”
  —Michael Wolff (05:17)

• “Is this actually what an autocracy looks like?”
  —Joanna Coles (12:29)

• “You have to get to the point and say, yes, this is autocracy. This is fascism.”
  —Michael Wolff (13:17)

• “Attention is the currency of our time…He gets it. Nobody else gets it.”
  —Michael Wolff (25:08)

• “It is alarming. And I, too, am a fundamental optimist…I have always basically believed…this would all somehow pass. Recently I’ve been…not sure that is so reassuring anymore.”
  —Michael Wolff (20:29, 21:37)

• “We have to be worried.”
  —Joanna Coles & Michael Wolff (33:20)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:49 – Framing the episode: “What happens when people say no to Trump?”
• 02:51 – Trump’s unilateral approach to tariffs and economic policy
• 05:13 – Trump’s fury and instability when opposed; Bannon anecdote
• 09:43 – Legal justifications and “soft language” as end-runs around checks/balances
• 12:12 – Judicial intimidation and safety concerns
• 13:17 – Naming the regime: autocracy and fascism
• 21:09 – The distinction between performance and actual implementation
• 23:09 – Foreign policy upheaval and new alliances
• 25:08 – Dominance of attention and the impossibility of alternative arguments
• 26:28 – Democrats’ language problem; anecdote of a “boring” presidential hopeful
• 29:22 – The public’s fixation on Trump as spectacle, not on substance
• 31:38 – Elon Musk’s “America Party” and political meddling
• 33:19 – Climax: “We have to be worried.”

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Tone & Style

The episode is frank, analytic, and sometimes darkly humorous, blending Wolff’s world-weary cynicism with Coles’s pointed curiosity. Their exchanges include vivid anecdotes, policy analysis, and speculation about the broader meaning of the Trump era.

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In Essence

Wolff and Coles deliver a sobering take on the American political crisis, dissecting Trump’s psychology and its ever-widening effects on governance, institutions, and the very possibility of opposition. They argue that Trump’s disregard for limits, obsession with winning, and mastery of attention have placed the US—and its democracy—in uncharted, perilous waters.

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Listener Prompt:
The hosts encourage feedback: How worried are you? What do you make of the institutional collapse and Trump’s one-man rule?

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Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles. Oh, you're special. Can you remember who you are?

[Michael Wolff]

I'm Joanna Coles.

[Joanna Coles]

No, you're definitely not Joanna Coles.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm Michael Bol.

[Joanna Coles]

And where are we going on today's trip?

[Michael Wolff]

We are going, alas, inside Donald Trump's head.

[Joanna Coles]

It's the first week back of school and it should feel like a school outing.

[Michael Wolff]

I've sent my kids back to school this morning.

[Joanna Coles]

Do you remember those school outings where you all went on a bus and there were always people who were sick?

[Michael Wolff]

Always, always. And I have gone as an adult on those buses and they really rattle like something crazy. They my God, we put children on.

[Joanna Coles]

These yellow school buses. I know, that's a very American thing. We don't have those in England. Anyway, we're going on a trip inside Trump's head and we're going to be talking about people who say no to Trump. What happens when people say no?

[Michael Wolff]

What happens when people say no? What happens to them? And what happens inside his head? The chemistry of no for Donald Trump is combustible.

[Joanna Coles]

The chemistry of what happens when you say no to Donald Trump. So come with us on our magic school bus ride. Buckle up. I have a feeling it's going to get bumpy. So, Michael, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about was this decision which says by a federal judge that Trump's policy for tariffs is in fact unconstitutional and that the tariffs, a central point of his economic policy, are in Fact, void.

[Michael Wolff]

And let's just fill in there. Trump has. These tariffs that Trump has set, and they've been a theme since the beginning of the administration, have been unilaterally set. I mean. I mean, even people in the White House talk about. When I've talked to them about this, and I said, well, where did you get these numbers? Everybody goes, I don't know. He just came up with these numbers. I mean, this is true. A true unilateral decision. You know, in the past, trade decisions like this have been very. They're very complicated. They've been arrived at through complex formulas. They have passed through Congress. It is a. These are meaningful decisions which have a major impact on the country's economy. He comes in, unilateral tariffs. We want tariffs. Tariffs. And tariffs are going to be used to raise money. They're going to be used to punish other kinds of.

[Joanna Coles]

They see they're very punitive, some of them.

[Michael Wolff]

They're all kinds of. There's something. Why. It's something I can do. I can declare tariff tariffs. Okay? The court comes along. This was late last week, and says. And says, obviously, no, you can't. And so what is essentially, I think a fundamental question is how does Trump react to that? And let's set that in the context of, you know, in our system of government, the president is told no a lot. And that's a check and balance. And you have to adapt to it, work around it, rethink it. Again, that is all about process. Trump doesn't do that. Trump is literate in people. When this happened, I think this decision came down on Friday, and I called people in the White House. The response was. The response was one person, uh. Oh, another person I spoke to said, bad weather.

[Joanna Coles]

Is that why we didn't hear from him over the weekend? Because he was just fuming?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I can't answer that, but I know that that was. That. That when this happens and let's just set this. And I think it's a. A baseline to understand Donald Trump. You can't say no to him. I mean, you just can't say no. And when someone does say no, he flies into a rage. He goes off his rocker. You know, Steve Bannon used to talk to me about this in. And it was like, you know, I mean, just don't try it. Don't try. If you try to, any situation in which he faces opposition, in which someone might be able to actually say no to him, he goes crazy.

[Joanna Coles]

But these are judges saying no to him. So they're not in the room. Right. I mean, you think also of the decision that came down on Tuesday that his insistence on putting the National Guard into L. A was violated federal policy.

[Michael Wolff]

Let me go back and set this. One of the other things that's happening here is Trump and the people around him, okay? The people around him know that he must get what he wants. He must, he must. A, no one must say no to him. B, he must get what he wants. And what he wants is never particularly grounded in law, convention, the normal things. Reality that people in political life have to figure on, have to calculate. So one of the ways that this happens is that the people around him go through each of the pertinent laws, is looked at and then they look for the soft language. Now, the soft language can be. Is defined at those. There is often an exception built into the law for crisis situations. I mean, I mean, what if we're attacked? What if there's a, you know, what if there's an economic collapse? What if there's another country that we're having to deal with who is being threatening and unreasonable? All of those kinds of exceptional situations, for instance in tariffs, yes, you cannot. The President cannot unilaterally set. But in an emergency situation, you might, you can argue that the President does have that power. If it becomes a national security issue, then the President might have that power.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, is that the same as him saying, okay, it's a crime emergency in D.C. i'm sending national Guards.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. So you would not say it's very well trod ground that American forces are not used to police American citizens, except if there is an emergency invasion, for instance. And in that case, in the case with using troops in cities in Los Angeles, he was essentially saying, well, there's an invasion. So anyway, Interesting.

[Joanna Coles]

So he was saying there's an invasion that is there's an invasion of illegal immigrants. I assumed he was saying it because he thought that there was so much crime. He's using crime for DC invasion in LA and then crime in Chicago. If they go into Chicago mulling that.

[Michael Wolff]

Now, but the other. So we identify the soft language here in where you might be able to define a crisis. And that's step one. But step two is then to argue that the person who can define the crisis is the President of the United.

[Joanna Coles]

States and only him.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. So this is entirely circular and entirely adds up to, I can do what I want on my own say. So this is now, the courts have now said, at least in the, in the federal appeals court, in terms of Tara saying no you can't. And we've seen other decisions related to mass deportations and now in sending troops into specifically Los Angeles that you've overstepped, to say the very least. Right, okay. Trump then reacts to this, someone saying no, violently. I mean, violently. It is as it's a personal affront. To the extent that he has any philosophy about how government works it, it's an offense to that. And what he does is essentially then say, how am I going to oppose this? I am not going to take this, I'm going to war against this. I mean, there is this whole thing about him going to war when this happens. He has to upend it, he has to upset it, he has to. He has to reverse it. He has to. And then he has to punish the people who have done that to him.

[Joanna Coles]

So you're inside Trump's brain. He's been told no, and he's had a week of being told no. The courts are beginning to fight back. Well, to be fair, the courts have fought back since the beginning, but these are consequential decisions.

[Michael Wolff]

Right, but let me there before. Hold that thought. And just let me add, because it's an important point here, is that the courts for the first time are in the position of a being intimidated, consistently intimidated by the President, and then defied. Because again and again and again the courts, the President has defied the courts. And it's very complicated. What do the courts do? And so I think we're in a situation where we're kind of relying on the courts to do something. But it's by no means clear that the courts are up to this.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it's also very stressful, I would imagine, for the judges in the centre of this, because he calls them out, they get doxed online, it's intimidating, their families get intimidated.

[Michael Wolff]

Absolutely. Can the courts do this? And can they? And what do they do if the President defies them?

[Joanna Coles]

So I have a question for you, which I go back and forth on, and I have a lot of resistance to, as I think a lot of people do, perhaps because I'm an optimist. But is this actually what an autocracy looks like? That this is one man calling the shots? The people around him seem unable to do anything. I mean, I was struck in the three and a half our Cabinet meeting last week. There is a picture of Marco Rubio looking like this. And you think, is there nothing they can do? How do they handle this? As you say, completely otherworldly species of human that's defying the way this job is normally carried out.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think it is this, I mean, is this, you know, what do we want to call this? Autocracy, fascism? Whatever we want to call this, we're in a unchartered territory and we are, when we have departed from the most basic democratic conventions and traditions of this country. So where are we. Put that aside. This is. We are a long way from where we were and where we always thought we would be. And that still seems beating around the bush. So I think you have to actually, you have to get to the point and say, yes, this is autocracy. This is fascism in a kind of classic sense of one man rule in which opposition is not. Opposition is always the threat. It's not the norm, which it used to be. It's not the expectation, which it used to be. It's not part of the acceptable structure. It is. Opposition is to be fought against. Crushed. Crushed.

[Joanna Coles]

I think you can't crush Twitter, you can't crush social media, where a lot of these conversations are going on. Or can you? I mean, at one point it looks as if his partnership with Elon Musk might actually somehow well, invest.

[Michael Wolff]

We've, we've. I mean, he set out to crush, to, to crush or certainly inhibit the media and has and has been pretty successful there.

[Joanna Coles]

True.

[Michael Wolff]

So what happens? I mean, remember, this is all somewhat incremental, although it's happening very fast and it is kind of drip, drip, drip, and there's never a memo that goes out. We are now in a fascist dictatorship or an autocracy.

[Joanna Coles]

Decision by decision, by decision.

[Michael Wolff]

No one says that I am an autocrat, I'm a fascist. They don't. This is kind of a judgment of history or a judgment when everybody wakes up and a fait accompli has happened.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. The systems haven't held, institutions haven't held.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, when I wrote my last book, which was about the campaign, which was right up through the, you know, until the inauguration, and it really seemed to me, thematically, it seemed to me to be binary. The system would crush Donald Trump, all of those trials, or he would crush the system. And, you know, I didn't know what it was going to be, but I think we were, we are very clearly seeing that it is the latter. And I'm not sure. And everybody is like, well, what do we do about this? I mean, there's many people trusting that the Grim Reaper will solve the problem. And there are the courts. We come back to the courts and will they say no? But we don't know if they can Say no.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, they may be saying no, but does it make any difference?

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. And then there is also, well, the people, the electorate. What happens? And you know from my mind, this is where we are. There is nothing left between. Except this. If he loses his majority in the house in 2026, then that would seem to me a new ball game. However, of course he's going to do everything possible within his power, within the imagination of the people around him, to be able to construct a rationale for interfering in this election in his favour.

[Joanna Coles]

Michael, we need to stop for a moment. Why?

[Michael Wolff]

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Joanna Coles]

And we're back with Michael Wolff discussing is this the end of democracy? And you saw him pardoning the January 6th rioters. You saw this week, him announcing that Ashley Babbitt, who was shot during the riots, was going to get full military honors at some kind of memorial. I guess it's all. I mean, January 6th, which I think a lot of people thought was a strange band of unlikely people coming together, suddenly looks much more ominous given the moment where we're.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know.

[Joanna Coles]

If.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm actually less worried about violent interference with the. With the election than I would be about systemic subversions. As in the gerrymandering in Texas, as in this, which would otherwise seem to be ridiculous and misguided effort to outlaw mail in voting.

[Joanna Coles]

But I guess I meant in terms of if we woke up the day after the midterms and it was clear that the Republicans had lost, is there then violence?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I don't know, but yes. I mean, possibly. I mean, everything at this point, Everything becomes more uncertain. We don't know what will happen. We have never been there before.

[Joanna Coles]

This is alarming. It's an alarming conversation.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, it is alarming. And I, too, am a fundamental optimist. I have always basically believed that. That Donald Trump, because he's fundamentally incompetent, is and fundamentally interested in just the look of the performance, that this would all somehow pass.

[Joanna Coles]

And to your point about incompetence, that he makes so many announcements that actually it doesn't add up to anything other than a show of. A sort of show of presidents, a performative presidency, which doesn't actually mean it.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. So the announcements putting troops in the streets are, you know, many announcements and many, you know, darkness at noon scenarios. But there aren't that many troops.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And I know lots of people who live in la. Nobody saw a troop. Nobody saw a troop. They didn't even know they were there.

[Michael Wolff]

In the neighborhoods where, you know, people.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I know some people that, you know.

[Michael Wolff]

No, you don't.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I know a few people that live downtown.

[Michael Wolff]

But, yeah, so that is, you can take. And I have largely looked at it like that. It's just Trump being Trump and to, you know, to no effect except the. To center the attention on Donald Trump. Recently I've been, you know, I mean, I'm not sure that that is so reassuring anymore. I mean, you know, I think that this is. He's entered a period of, you know, more arrogance, more hubris, more rage. He wants it. He believes that he can have it. He believes that he has the power to get it. And he's not going to be satisfied until nobody says no.

[Joanna Coles]

So let me ask you something. This week we saw the Shanghai conference run by Xi Jinping. There was him, there was Modi, there was Vladimir Putin. They were all holding hands at one moment in a very strange. It was a sort of strange international gesture, I had thought. The axis of opportunism, someone called it. But I had thought that Trump wanted to be the fourth and turn that trio into a quartet. Is that not. Is that. Not even be above them?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think the more important point is that this is just an indication that everything that the fundamental premise, the fundamental pillars of American foreign policy, which is which, I mean, you can argue. You can argue, has kept world peace for the last 70 years, almost 80 years, and is no longer operative. And, you know, I mean, many people will say, well, there's, you know, I mean, there is certainly a critique that says American foreign policy has been deeply flawed. But to exchange it for this essentially empowering, empowering our traditional enemies, empowering Vladimir Putin, arguably the worst person on earth.

[Joanna Coles]

It's hard to see how Donald Trump's voters benefit from this in any way. Higher prices, less national security. What is the benefit here? I mean, I agree with you. It feels like we are at a tipping point. The National Guard going in. It may be performative, but nevertheless, rule.

[Michael Wolff]

Of one, it's totally. You're totally right. And we get to this other aspect of this, which no one seems capable of making the argument against Donald Trump. No one seems capable of making an argument that says, look at this, you're getting nothing out of this. The consequences here are all negative. And partly no one can make the argument, because when he makes the argument or when hehis hysteria, and that's always. There's always a level of hysteria that he's. That he greets anything with, I need to put troops in the street. I mean, it's essentially, that's his governing principle, hysteria. It's an emergency American carnage, and that then crowds everything else out. I mean, this is perfectly. In media terms, hysteria rules. So no one else can get attention. He gets all the attention. Attention is the currency of our time. And it's zero sum. He gets it. Nobody else gets it. So therefore, you can't. There are no arguments that can oppose Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

So Democrats watching this, and I think our audience is largely Democratic, would say, well, Gavin Newsom has taken a page out of Trump's place playbook. He's, you know, sending out funny tweets. He's coming back at Trump. Is there any validity to that?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no. I mean, I think it's the one indication that somebody is understanding that Donald Trump speaks in a different language, that there is that Democrats have to. Have to be responsive in some way that they haven't been. You know, a couple of weeks ago, I had dinner with a likely Democratic presidential candidate. I mean, estimable person in every way, and, you know, a serious person, a person who obviously is approaching all issues in, not to mention a logical but also a moderate way, Someone who you might. It ought to be easy to respect. There's no reason not to respect this person. Except that he's a complete dweeber.

[Joanna Coles]

You mean. Oh, God, is he just very boring?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, completely. When you spoke to him, he responded in policy paragraphs. Come on. You know, just, you know, and this is sitting a few people at a table over dinner. I mean, you know, a social occasion, actually. And there it was incredibly Rehearsed incredibly. You know, he talked, he talked. You turn everybody turned off.

[Joanna Coles]

Right?

[Michael Wolff]

And that's what the Democrats that, you know, that is what passes for moderate politics.

[Joanna Coles]

Michael, we need to take a pause.

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[Joanna Coles]

Michael and I are back discussing is this an autocracy? Is it fascism? Is it just Trumpism? What the hell is it?

[Michael Wolff]

Is it the end of everything?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, so you say that Donald Trump doesn't speak in the same language as everybody else, but the audience has stopped hearing the familiar language of politics and they like what he's saying, right?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't think it's a question of like. It's a question of you can't hear anyone else and your attention. It's not a question of like, it's a question of attention. You don't like a car crash, but you know, you're going to look at it. And that's what he understands. The Democrats are still thinking, you know, people will like this. Well, that's, it doesn't work like that. You know, that's not the nature of attention.

[Joanna Coles]

But it does look like some of the Republicans that went home and held town halls were shocked and surprised by the vehemence against the big beautiful bill, about people complaining about their local hospitals closing, about people being wiped off Medicaid.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, I've been hearing about the Republicans going home to town meetings since 2017. I mean, this is, I mean, and this is partly, this is partly because Republicans also can't talk the talk, the Trump talk. And then when Trump comes out again, matter of fact, the Republicans tend to lose when Trump is not on the ballot. They tend to win when he is on the ballot. So the Republicans don't know what they're doing either.

[Joanna Coles]

But that's a great point.

[Michael Wolff]

And that's an issue. And I think that there is, is reason, strong reason to hope and anticipate that the Democrats will win at least in the house in 2026. In a normal world But Donald Trump also knows that. So he is going to do everything possible. And, you know, in a divided electorate, you know, you don't need a lot of movement there to either take or, or to protect.

[Joanna Coles]

So I'm just going back to the question that I've asked you before. Where is Elon Musk's America Party in this? Has he just given it up? Was it also a performative gesture, fit of pique against Trump, or do you actually think he might be able to wrestle 10 seats away from the Republicans?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I don't know. I think that he's probably. He's, you know, there are forces within the Republican Party, notably J.D. vance, who have tried to talk him down and may have succeeded in talking him down. Elon has a set of his own problems, obviously, you know, business problems, you know, but, you know, Elon is also, you know, I suspect, you know, what's. Where is his attention? Where is his focus at any given moment? You know, within his business practices. You know, he has a, you know, the philosophy of the surge. So you can ignore a problem, and then in order to fix it, you suddenly go all in. Could he do that? And essentially, he did that in the, in the 2024 election.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, he did not become involved in the election, truly, until August, and then he went into Pennsylvania all in $300 million.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Post the assassination attempt. Right. Wow. Well, this was not the conversation I was expecting to have, but it is one that I think is truly depressing.

[Michael Wolff]

It. It is. And I think we have to have it. More people have to have it. Have we slipped beyond the point here? Is this, you know, a lot of people say, and a lot of comments that I get is, will you tell us when we have to be worried?

[Joanna Coles]

We have to be worried.

[Michael Wolff]

We have to be worried.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, we have to be worried. Let us know what you think. A bit more of a sober inside Trump's head than perhaps we were expecting, but nevertheless asking lots of questions. And as you say, people write to us all the time and say this is the beginning of something that's irrevocable for America.

[Michael Wolff]

I've always said that this is an anomaly, and it's just this weird Trump moment, and it's all about Donald Trump, and when he goes away, there's no.

[Joanna Coles]

One to replace him. He's a singular figure by the hand.

[Michael Wolff]

Of the angel of death or otherwise, there's no one to replace him. But for now, he's very much there.

[Joanna Coles]

If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Please subscribe to the Daily Beast. Leave us your comments. What do you think about the conversation we've just had? How worried are you? You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, YouTube. And don't forget, wherever she is. And she may be a little worried too. The First Lady. She would have us be Beast. And thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna von Erssen and our editor Jesse Millwood.

[Michael Wolff]

ACAST powers the World's best Podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Michael Wolff]

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