Trump Lets Slip What's Got Under His Skin: Wolff

Summary

Inside Trump's Head — Episode Summary
Episode Title: Trump Lets Slip What's Got Under His Skin: Wolff
Hosts: Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles (The Daily Beast)
Air Date: February 18, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles take listeners deep inside the current swirl around Donald Trump, peeling back the layers on Trump's psyche in light of new revelations from the Jeffrey Epstein files, the resulting fallout among the elite, and the ongoing “Melania lawsuit” that has Trump fuming. They also reflect on the broader implications for American politics, the failure of media reporting, and the state of the climate debate and 2026 political landscape. Candid, conversational, and at times darkly humorous, this episode illuminates what genuinely gets under Trump's skin—and explains how the intersection of Epstein, Bannon, and Trump continues to reveal new layers of power and paranoia.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Epstein Files Fallout — Guilt by Association

• The hosts discuss the wide-reaching impact of recent Epstein files:
  • Many “respectable” figures, including Tom Pritzker (former Hyatt chairman), are implicated simply for associations with Epstein, regardless of personal involvement in criminal acts.
  • Wolff notes:

    "It is a fast spreading disease." (02:00)

  • He cites a haunting New York Times editorial:

    "Anyone who has shaken hands with Mr. Epstein in recent decades should be scrutinized." (05:05)

  • Epstein's own quirks get attention—in particular, his germaphobia, and how that further complicates the “guilt by contact” calculus (05:44–08:19).

2. Trump's Reactions: Feeling the Heat

• Wolff recounts hearing that Trump, aboard Air Force One, was “raging” about him—fixated on the narrative that Wolff (with Epstein) is at the root of all his woes (09:33–10:08).
  • Notable quote:

    "You are the cause of all his problems, you sleazebag. Journalists Michael Wolff and Jeffrey Epstein were conspiring to bring him down. That's what he takes from the Epstein files." —Coles (09:58)

• Wolff admits partial truth: he did hope Epstein would use his knowledge to “sound a warning against Donald Trump.” (10:35)
• Trump’s paranoia is explored:

  "He has an antenna for what is true. When he singles that out, he is saying, yeah, you could have. That could have been harmful to me." —Wolff (11:11)

3. The Melania Lawsuit: Under Trump’s Skin

• Wolff explains that the Melania lawsuit, naming him, is positioning him as a personal adversary—Trump “screwed up” by making himself vulnerable to legal depositions targeting his family and associates (12:08–12:54).

  > "They screwed up to get themselves in a position where I could pursue them. I'm pursuing them." —Wolff (12:20)
  

• Coles jokes about reporters’ failure to ask Trump about Melania’s real living situation—a source of evident embarrassment for the president (11:27–12:08).

4. Steve Bannon, Epstein, and Anti-Trump Machinations

• Wolff reveals he personally introduced Bannon to Epstein in 2017, recounting their immediate bond over mutual Trump animus (13:18–19:38).
  • Notable moment:

    "Steve Bannon's first words were to Jeffrey Epstein: 'You were the only person I was afraid of during the 2016 campaign.'" —Coles (13:51)

• The New York Times’ recycling of old material without new reporting is critiqued:

  "I was the person who introduced Epstein and Bannon, which is interesting, because the New York Times takes any excuse to give me a poke, and they miss that one because nobody is doing any reporting." —Wolff (14:39)

5. Did Epstein Know Too Much About Trump?

• The hosts outline two key theories about Epstein’s 2019 arrest:
  • He was arrested at Trump’s behest to shut him up.
  • The Southern District of New York arrested Epstein hoping to extract information on Trump. (21:20–22:15)
• Wolff’s agnosticism about Epstein’s death:

  "I can't see the circumstances in which he died the way they say he would have had to have died. ... I remain agnostic on this question." (22:48)

6. The Pandora’s Box of the Epstein Files

• Concerns arise over the precedent of dumping all investigative info—potentially anti-democratic and a violation of due process:

  "Information has never been released in this way... we may look back at this and say this is as illiberal as anything the Trump administration has done." —Wolff (25:27)

• The hosts lament the destructive collateral impact on marginally involved figures—especially the public airing of private details:

  "Kathy Rummler's private life. Absolutely everywhere. ... None of which really pertains to the Epstein case." —Coles (29:13)

7. The Climate Change Rollback — Policy or Personality?

• Wolff dissects the Trump administration’s dismantling of federal climate change authority—not as a substantive policy position, but as tribal opposition:

  "I am against anything that the people I am against are for. ... This is us against them." —Wolff (31:06–34:08)

• He underscores the irony: such moves also harm Trump’s own red-state voters but serve the purpose of political polarization (34:08–34:50).

8. Does the Epstein Dump Benefit Trump Politically?

• The proliferation of names and confusion may ultimately “take the focus off” Trump and dilute fallout:

  "It has certainly taken the focus off of him and put the focus on so many other people and fractured the focus." —Wolff (35:04)

• Wolff draws a comparison to Trump's “survival” of the Access Hollywood tape scandal in 2016—the palace-intrigue deflection strategy.

9. Who Really Stayed Friends With Epstein?

• The hosts explore the “red line” of associating with Epstein after his conviction, and debate whether the worst of his behaviors predated jail time. (36:55–38:17)
• Wolff’s view: After jail, Epstein became “scrupulous” about underage associations.

10. Political Landscape—Rubio, AOC, and the 2026 Field

• Marco Rubio’s stature grows post-Munich Conference; he’s “the one pro in the administration” and thought to be adapting his politics for survival, potentially poised to re-center once Trump is out (38:17–41:10).
• Discussion on intra-administration rivalries (Rubio vs. J.D. Vance), Trump’s penchant for creating rival power bases.
• On AOC, both marvel at her outside-the-box presidential ambitions and debate the Democratic Party’s “disruptive vs. centrist” identity (42:29–43:45).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On guilt by association:

  "There's an element of Salem witch trials about this now... that anybody that's ever been involved with Jeffrey Epstein has to step back." —Coles (04:53)

• On inside knowledge:

  "Bannon and Epstein are the people who are most insightful [about Trump]." —Wolff (18:03)

• On the impact of information dumps:

  "When you give information to the FBI, you don't expect it to be made public, you know." —Coles (27:20)

• On Trump’s political method:

  "Trump always does what he has done before for Donald Trump." —Wolff (36:41)

• On climate change rollbacks:

  "This is not as simple as saying, well, we disagree with the science here. … It's not about climate change, it is about Donald Trump." —Wolff (31:40)

• On Mueller-Epstein-press failures:

  "The idea of going through these emails and just extracting snippets from these emails is not reporting. They don't know the context, they don't know the meaning, they don't know the – they know nothing." —Wolff (28:30)

• On the future Democratic field:

  "Are we a middle of the road party? Are we a disruptive party? ... Nobody knows what works in that." —Wolff (43:28)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:00 — Fallout from the Epstein files claims Tom Pritzker; discussion of guilt by association
• 05:05-05:44 — NYT's haunting editorial: “Anyone who has shaken hands... should be scrutinized.”
• 09:33 — Trump rages about Wolff aboard Air Force One; blames him for troubles
• 10:35 — Wolff admits he hoped Epstein would use info to warn about Trump
• 13:51 — Steve Bannon tells Epstein: "You were the only person I was afraid of during the 2016 campaign."
• 21:20 — Theories about Epstein arrest: Trump’s involvement vs. SDNY’s goals
• 22:48 — Wolff discusses his agnosticism on Epstein’s death
• 25:27 — Debate about the anti-democratic effects of mass info dumps
• 31:06–34:08 — Wolff analyzes Trump’s climate policy as tribal, not scientific
• 35:04 — Wolff argues Epstein file release is politically helping Trump
• 38:17–41:10 — Rubio’s rising star, Vance rivalry, implications for GOP future
• 42:29–43:45 — AOC’s ambitions, the Democratic Party at a crossroads

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Listener Q&A Highlights

• Melania’s status and Trump-Epstein split: Several questions touch on whether Melania has received government support or played a role in Trump-Epstein relationship fallout. (45:47–47:33)
• Limericks about first class intrigue and podcast banter provide moments of levity (47:58–48:40).

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Final Thoughts

This episode spotlights the continuing chaos swirling around former President Trump—not only as a figure dogged by scandal and legal jeopardy, but as a personality whose reactions to threat remain stubbornly and self-destructively personal. The recent Epstein revelations, rather than inflicting obvious damage, have blurred lines of accountability and paradoxically may strengthen Trump by dispersing public focus. Wolff and Coles provide unparalleled insider color, sharp media criticism, and caustic commentary—all while setting the stage for the coming fights for control in both parties.

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For a full appreciation of the personality dynamics and inside scoop, listen to the complete episode.

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

I saw this app.

[Mark Halperin]

I got a hit.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Mark Halperin]

Max, we had supper last night and you came in and as we were eating, the President was raging against you on Air Force One.

[Michael Wolff]

Me and the President.

[Mark Halperin]

His line now about the Epstein files appears to be he's exonerated and you are the cause of all of his problems, you sleazebag. Journalists Michael Wolfe and Jeffrey Epstein were conspiring to bring him down. That's what he takes from the Epstein files. Michael. Joanna, we are back in the studio, thank goodness. And I have my little walker tucked in the corner. Thank you everybody who's told me about your hip replacements.

[Michael Wolff]

Let's not display the walker.

[Mark Halperin]

It's not displayed, it's tucked away. And by the. By this time next week, I will be done with the walker. I'll be onto the Although.

[Michael Wolff]

Although we will soon all be with walker, so we should maybe practice.

[Mark Halperin]

The only reason I've got a walker is because soon I'll be able to run like a gazelle.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, we're going to run together.

[Mark Halperin]

We're never going to run together. I still don't believe that you run. Anyway, thank you very much for your lovely comments about getting well and also all the people out there that have had hip replacements and your various ideas for therapies and when you're on a cane and all that. I really appreciate it. It's actually very nice to hear from people. All right, and what color is this Prey. Is this a latte?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And this is chocolate.

[Mark Halperin]

Okay, so chocolate latte this morning. Okay. February. We're longing for spring. It's a bit gloomy today, but never mind. We're here in person. Life is good. Although not for Tom Pritzke. Another person. Every single day someone has fallen because of their relationship with your old friend Jeffrey Epstein.

[Michael Wolff]

No, it's extraordinary. It is a fast spreading disease.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah. The scion of the. And I think he was chairman of the Hyatt Hotel Group and he's had to resign because it's all too much and his emails have come out. And Michael, did you ever meet Tom Pritzker with Jeffrey Epstein?

[Michael Wolff]

I did. Pray to hell Jeffrey Epstein. And this is other people who have fallen. Jeffrey Epstein had a special viewing of the play Oslo.

[Mark Halperin]

Oh yeah. Because he was involved with the people

[Michael Wolff]

that were at the well, he knew the negotiations. The central protagonists in Oslo are. Are Norwegian diplomats. A man by the name of Tirj Larsen and his wife, whose name I should know because I know her. But, you know, two enormously capable people and two people who have made a profound contribution to world peace. I think.

[Mark Halperin]

Can we just say they were the Wyckoff and Jared of their day.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, they were not. I think the important point is the Witkoff and Jared of their day, they were legitimate diplomats who made a profound contribution to the world.

[Mark Halperin]

Right. To the Middle east peace process, to be specific.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And to other things. I mean, these were lifelong career diplomats. And actually, the play Oslo, which is kind of terrific, makes this very clear the kinds of things that they did and the kinds of things that they were involved in and this profound contribution that they made.

[Mark Halperin]

And it was on at the Lincoln Center. It opened at the Lincoln Center.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And Epstein was a friend of theirs, so he had this special. Not screening, staging, viewing, whatever.

[Mark Halperin]

Do you mean? At the Lincoln Center? No.

[Michael Wolff]

At Lincoln Center. Yeah. I mean, he sort of bought out one evening at Lincoln center and then invited a lot of people, including Tom Pritzker, which is where I met Tom Pritzker. And I think one other time I met him at Jeffrey's house.

[Mark Halperin]

Did you ever meet Deepak there?

[Michael Wolff]

I did meet Deepak Chopra, yes. I think we've talked. Haven't we talked about this? Well, let me see. Let's do it again. Because that was Deepak Chopra described when Jared and Ivanka came to one of his. Whatever he does.

[Mark Halperin]

Workshops, I think. Spiritual workshops for which you're guaranteed spiritual awakening.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And they sat in the front row. He was very fixed on that, and they were very attentive to him.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah, you did tell me that. But. Okay, so you met Tom Pritzker. Well, he's the next one. There's an element of Salem witch trials about this now that anybody that's ever been involved with Jeffrey Epstein has to step back.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, no, no. And I pulled. There's this line which has haunted me for some time, and this is something that the New York Times wrote just after. In the months after Epstein died. The New York Times. An editorial in the New York Times, they said, anyone who has shaken hands with Mr. Epstein in recent decades should be scrutinized. And I thought, well, certainly since. Well, actually, I haven't shaken hands with Epstein because Epstein did not shake hands. So this is.

[Mark Halperin]

What did he do? Did he do the elbow thing?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, yes. He was a germaphobe.

[Mark Halperin]

I've Always found that elbow thing. Unlike rfk, who isn't scared of germs because, as he said, he used to snort coke off a toilet seat. I know I said that on Saturday, but it's such an extraordinary detail about him. Here's an uncomfortable truth. Your home address, phone number and personal details are almost certainly online right now, being bought and sold by data brokers you've probably never heard of. Stop companies from fleecing your data now with Incogni. Incogni automatically hunts down your personal info and removes it from hundreds of data brokers. They can't profit off you if they can't find you. What I love is how dogged Incogni is continuously scrubbing your info from people's search sites, online directories and giant databases housing your precious details. And if your personal info pops up somewhere new, you can flag it and a real privacy expert takes care of it in a flash. Let's stop the endless spam calls, scrub your data now and give yourself some peace of mind. Act now to get an exclusive 60% off with an annual inclusive Incogni plan, just go to incogni.com beast or click the link in the episode description box.

[Michael Wolff]

Epstein was. Was very much a germaphobe. And I often said that a pandemic was coming before the pandemic.

[Mark Halperin]

Odd that he was a germaphobe, given how many people strange girls he had sex with that he didn't know and that there were seemed to be endless doctors on hand to help the girls who'd picked up STIs.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know what to say to this, I find, because one of the things. If you told me that Epstein did not actually have penetrative sex, I would not be surprised. You know, I mean, his fetish, which is. We should. Demands significantly more explanation, which I wish someone would do, was about these massages. I mean, that's what the whole thing was. It was a constant thing. And I don't understand this. I don't understand why anyone would have this.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, I think they were massages with, in theory, happy endings. Right? I mean, wasn't his thing that he had to have three chlorophylls a day, according to Milan.

[Michael Wolff]

Again, again, there's the penetrating, the penetrative issue. We're not clear on that. Anyway, anyway, let's get back to the handshake.

[Mark Halperin]

Okay, so the point is he didn't. The point is he was a germaphobe.

[Michael Wolff]

Like, the point is that this was

[Mark Halperin]

all these gross men are germaphobes. It's so ironic.

[Michael Wolff]

The point is that this is set up. The New York Times foreshadows this, that almost anyone. That this is guilt by association.

[Mark Halperin]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And this is a classic thing. I mean, this could not be more classic. You know, what was Tom Pritzker's association? Is there any suggestion that Tom Pritzker was involved with Jeffrey Epstein's, a dark sexual. That compartment of his life? No, there is certainly no suggestion of that. Just the only suggestion is that he had a friendship with Jeffrey Epstein.

[Mark Halperin]

All right, so we had supper last night with a group of friends. You were in town, you left the Hamptons behind, and you came in, and as we were eating, if I may say so, a rather good lasagna, the President was raging against you on Air Force One.

[Michael Wolff]

Me and the President, Yeah.

[Mark Halperin]

I mean, you know, he's. His line now about the Epstein files appears to be. He's exonerated, and you

[Michael Wolff]

are the cause

[Mark Halperin]

of all of his problems, you sleazeback. Journalists Michael Wolff and Jeffrey Epstein were conspiring to bring him down. That's what he takes from the Epstein files.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And this is not altogether untrue, by the way. I mean, it is certainly untrue that he's been exonerated. He's always exonerated.

[Mark Halperin]

Right. Nobody's been exonerated more the great exoneration. Terrific exoneration.

[Michael Wolff]

But it certainly was a piece of my relationship with Jeffrey Epstein was trying to get him to use what he knew to. To actually sound, at the very least, a warning against Donald Trump.

[Mark Halperin]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So. Yes. So he is. Right. He's picked up on that. He's kind of focused in on that. And when he focuses in on things that Isactually, he has an antenna for what is true, in other words. So he's. When he singles that out, he is saying, yeah, you could have. That could have been harmful to me.

[Mark Halperin]

Right. Well, I still think he thinks the Epstein files might be harmful to him.

[Michael Wolff]

And let's go into. Because I want to do the Steve Bannon thing, because Steve Bannon has been an Epstein person of the day.

[Mark Halperin]

But before we do, I would just like to remark that I thought it was strange that the reporters on Air Force One, given the news last week with your own legal case, that Melania doesn't, in fact, live at the White House, she lives at Trump Tower. I thought it was that instead of asking them, where does Melania live? They asked instead, you know, did you give Melania flowers for Valentine's Day? And weirdly, he didn't even Say yes to that. He said, oh, it's complicated. What's complicated about it? He couldn't just say no because we don't live together. And why did no one say, is it true that Melania lives in Trump Tower? Instead? He looks sort of sheepish and weird and backed away.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, and. Well, and that's the other thing. Why my name is. Comes up. I am under his skin with this Melania lawsuit.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, we're inside his house and you're under his skin.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, this lawsuit is a problem for them. I mean, they screwed up to get themselves in a position where I could pursue them. They're not pursuing me. I'm pursuing them. And that this could ultimately end up with depositions taken from certainly from their friends and quite possibly, inevitably, actually, if it goes that far with them. So this is a. That's a screw up. The lawsuit. Getting themselves in this position is a screw up with my name on it.

[Mark Halperin]

But if I were a journalist on Air Force One and I had the opportunity to talk to Trump, I would be talking to him about this journalist. If you're out there and you're looking for things to ask about.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yeah, but you know the problem.

[Mark Halperin]

Solania is interested.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. You know the problem. If you ask those kinds of questions, you won't be on the plane anymore.

[Mark Halperin]

I'm sure that he will open the door mid flight and kick them off anyway.

[Michael Wolff]

But I want to get back to this Bannon thing, and I want to connect it to this idea that he thinks that I was plotting with Epstein against him. Because one of the people who Epstein. The other person Epstein was plotting with against Trump was with Bannon. But also, let me recollect that that moment when Jeffrey Epstein met Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon's first words were to Jeffrey Epstein were.

[Mark Halperin]

I know what they were. Yeah. You were the only person I was afraid of during the 2016 campaign.

[Michael Wolff]

Bingo.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah. See, I have been listening. Yeah. And you introduced Steve Bannon to Jeffrey Epstein.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. So the New York Times yesterday did their. Their Bannon Epstein takedown. There's one a day now. So all they're able to do is just write stories with snippets from these emails, and they managed. Their coverage of the Bannon Epstein relationship was. I mean, it seemed like zero reporting, actually.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, I thought the coverage was exactly the same as the chapter you had written in your book, Too Famous five years ago.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Okay, so five years ago. Written everything you could want to know about the Epstein Bannon relationship five years ago. So why now? And the other thing is that they missed a kind of a salient fact, which is that I was the person who introduced Epstein and Bannon, which is interesting, because the New York Times takes any excuse to give me a poke, and they miss that one because nobody is doing any reporting.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, it was a very interesting chapter in your book when it came out, which was an anthology of pieces about sort of famous men, basically. But what was interesting about it was you have Steve. You have the recordings of Steve Bannon trying to help Jeffrey Epstein prepare for a possible interview on 60 Minutes, and Bannon is putting him through his paces. And actually, we've seen some of this now.

[Michael Wolff]

Some of this has come out.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah, I watched some of it online on Instagram and TikTok. So it's out there. But it is a really interesting insight into the two of them.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, and I think it was. It was a kind of fascinating relationship, and it was a relationship that I kind of watched unfold. And it goes. I mean, it was. I mean, first thing it was. I mean, Bannon is now like everybody, you know. No, no, no. I didn't really know him. No, no, I wasn't really friends.

[Mark Halperin]

Just place Bannon for us at this point.

[Michael Wolff]

So this was 2017, right, 2000, the fall of 2017.

[Mark Halperin]

So Bannon had been cast out by Donald Trump at this point.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, he had been cast out in August. He was, you know, I mean, he was considering his future, obviously looking to meet people who might help finance that future and. But also kind of having a good time. I mean, I knew Bannon well at this point and had seen him, if not every day, very often through the first term, through that, from January through to August. And the. Working in the White House for him had become an intolerable burden. I mean, working with Trump, who he hated, working with Jared, and everything was. So by the time he was pushed out of the White House, exiled from the White House, you could just see the weight come off his shoulder. So he was in a great. He was in a very good place. Not I've been banished, but, like, I've been saved. And so I introduced them to Epstein, and they immediately bonded over their hatred for Donald Trump. I mean, they both had had this deep experience with him. And to this day, I think both Epstein and Trump, certainly, in my rather substantial experience, are the two people who are most insightful about Donald Trump.

[Mark Halperin]

I mean, Bannon and Epstein are the people who are most insightful. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

And they would get together constantly, and the overwhelming part of their conversation was about Donald Trump, about trying to explain this, about trying to understand how this guy could have come to power, how this happened, and then anecdote after anecdote after anecdote about what a moron he is.

[Mark Halperin]

Do you think they were jealous of Trump?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, of course. I mean, I think they each felt that they were smarter than Trump because they both were smarter than Trump and they each felt that he had played them in some way. And whatever Trump was, whatever Trump had become, it was partly because of them. So all of those kinds of things were operative. But I think the overriding thing was they felt like much of the country felt, how did this, how did this happen, possibly have happened? And then. And they went on, because they knew him so well, to see this quite in comic terms or comic tragic terms. So this became a kind of entertainment for them to go over this again and again and again and again. But the point is they really bonded. They really became incredibly good friends. On the phone all the time or in person all of the time.

[Mark Halperin]

Did Donald Trump know this? Did he know that the two people that he had at one point been close with were now bonded together? Because I would imagine that might make him paranoid.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And I imagine that he did know this and it probably did make him paranoid. Yeah. In the book, I mean, there is a kind of a kind of thing, and it's an unanswered question. How aware was Donald Trump of this Epstein relationship closing in on him?

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[Michael Wolff]

You know, there is the view of a number of people that when Epstein started to talk to me about Trump and started. And I started to publish this, you know, and I went back and forth with Epstein and he said, yeah, I mean, I remember the. Very specifically, yes. And he thought about it. Tell that story about the breakup of the relationship and his. Epstein's belief that it was Trump that

[Mark Halperin]

chopped him to the Palm beach police.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, exactly. And then when that book came out, and then it was really three weeks later that he was. That Epstein was arrested. And I don't know this, none of us know this, but there is certainly conjecture among a circle of people that that was, that there was a direct cause and effect there and that the

[Mark Halperin]

Southern District of New York arrested Epstein because they wanted information on Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's the other side of this. So there are two operative theories, that he was arrested at Trump's behest because he had information on. Onbecause Trump wanted to shut him up, or he was arrested independently on the behest of the Southern District looking to squeeze him for information about Trump.

[Mark Halperin]

It's almost impossible nowand this came out of the dinner we were talking about last night. But I'm sure a lot of people have had these conversations where the more you read about the Epstein files and the more you read them, the more you think it is possible he didn't die by suicide. I mean, I'm always a cock up theory, not a conspiracy theorist. But on this one, it reaches so deep, it's such a bizarre story that you think, gosh, maybe he was actually killed in jail. I mean, it's just.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, and I don't, I mean, you know my feeling about this, that I can't see the circumstances in which he, he died the way they say he would have had to have died. And yet I can't see the circumstances in which all the people who would have had some knowledge of this, the assistant U.S. attorneys, the FBI agents, all of the people surrounding that moment of the most significant prisoner in the United States at that moment, would know nothing or would keep quiet about this, what they knew. So I remain agnostic on this question.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, it's, I mean, it's just a remarkable, it's a remarkable story, all right, but it is.

[Michael Wolff]

And I think more and more as we come back to this, I mean, every day this goes on, it becomes a story the likes of which we've never seen since, I don't know, the Kennedy assassination. I mean, it becomes that kind of thing and that kind of Rosetta Stone. If only we could interpret this, we would know everything. Instead of as we interpret it, we seem to know less and less.

[Mark Halperin]

Right. And also it's impossible to know where to start. First of all, the search function is not reliable. So you can put someone's name in and it comes up with 200 references. You can put them in the next day, and it comes with 700 references. So it's not well organized, but it's very difficult to know where to begin, even going through it. And every day I wake up and I'm more confused by it anyway?

[Michael Wolff]

No. Well, at some point, and I don't think this can be done now, but someone will, someone will put this all together, remember? And the other thing that's happened there, I mean, we have this now, this, this collection of information which is unvetted, which we don't know where it comes from. I mean, it's random. And that will be a separate question about the effect of releasing this information in this way. And we ought to remember that information has never been released in this way. I mean, the idea of, of law enforcement agencies and the government investigative arms of the government taking all of the information that they have about something and just throwing it out.

[Mark Halperin]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Has never happened before. So we don't know the effect of that. And you know, in the future we may look back at this and say this is as doing. This is as illiberal as anything the Trump administration has done. And this was of course forced upon the Trump administration. But the other thing is that we don't have the people who are directly involved with this. People. Tom Pritzker, Kathy Ruemmler, Joel Klein, I just saw was pulled into this the other day. Naomi Campbell. Right, Naomi Campbell, all of these people. Nobody who actually was a part of this has spoken. They don't speak.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, everybody's advising them not to. There was a wonderful.

[Michael Wolff]

Except me, by the way. I am speaking.

[Mark Halperin]

Okay, well, you are speaking. Yes. There was a wonderful line in the piece about Joel Klein, who was the former head of education for New York City and is spending some time with Epstein at Sounds like for a company that he's doing post his leading the education job. But Epstein says to him, I want to have some friends tonight. Can you think of some people to invite who aren't too ponderous? And Joel says, I fear most people are too ponderous. I thought, what a good line. What a great line. Yeah. It's impossible to know where to begin. But also, isn't it, I mean, your point about illiberal. Well, maybe illiberal is the word, but anti Democratic about the fact that all these statements and things have just been thrown out there. When you give information to the FBI, you don't expect it to be made public, you know.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I mean, I think illiberal. Well, we can. Whatever the word. Yeah, yeah. No, this is. And this goes back to that New York Times thing. Anyone who has shaken his hand deserves to be scrutinized.

[Mark Halperin]

Obviously not.

[Michael Wolff]

What, oh, and I can add what these people at the New York Times don't know is that Epstein credited one of the contributors to his rise was the publisher of the New York Times, Arthur Sulzberger. Arthur och Salzberger. So now the grandfather of the current publisher because Epstein, when he was a teacher at the Dalton School, one of his students was the daughter of the then publisher of the New York Times. And the then publisher of the New York Times met Epstein and then tried to encourage him to. To break out of teaching, to leave teaching. Was offered a job at the New York Times.

[Mark Halperin]

Epstein was offered a job at the New York Times.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, that's what that. According to Epstein. Yes. But again, the New York Times reporters don't know this because they're terrible reporters. They're not reporting. I just want to make this point again, that they are not reporting. That the idea of going through these emails and just extracting snippets from these emails is not reporting. They don't know the context, they don't know the meaning, they don't know the. They know nothing.

[Mark Halperin]

But I guess my point, and maybe this is what you mean by the illiberal point, is just the collateral damage on people is remarkable. I mean.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. No, no.

[Mark Halperin]

You know, Kathy Rummler's private life. Absolutely everywhere. All over the front page of the Wall Street Journal. None of which really pertains to the Epstein case.

[Michael Wolff]

None of it. Yes, no. And even when, I mean, in just due process, I mean this is a kind of violation of due process. Due process says you have information related to a specific investigation or crime. Well, yes. Okay. The public has the right to know about that, but does not have a right to know about the information. That has no relevance.

[Mark Halperin]

Right, okay, yeah, I agree. I agree. And that's where it gets very Salem witch trials, the whole thing. Whereas we are trying to get to the bottom of an industrial sized sex trafficking ring.

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[Mark Halperin]

Should we talk about climate change?

[Michael Wolff]

Please.

[Mark Halperin]

It's too much, Epstein. Although it is a remarkable story and it's continuing to grow and obviously we'll continue to map who's the next best.

[Michael Wolff]

It's continuing to grow, but no one is continuing. No one really understanding is really telling it.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah, there's less understanding of what it is. And by the time we come back on Thursday, someone else will have lost their job, I think we can guarantee. All right, so climate change, it's not happening anymore. We're all going back to coal fired plants, we call that.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I mean, this is, and let's get inside Trump's head on this because, I mean, what he has done is he has given up power. So the federal government, over the course of a generation has amassed a variety of tools, accrued power with which it can regulate climate issues, with which it can oversee and begin to, you know, and that relates to automobiles, it relates to water? Yes, everything. I mean, they have a kind of a broad or they have amassed an amount of authority here. So whether you use it or not, you get to use it as you see fit to use it, as you are advised to use it. You can decide to use less of it. It's, it's just an authority that the federal government has come to have. Because obviously there is reason to believe, even if you might want to disagree, there is reason to believe that this is a threat that the government should be aware of and might well be need to be in a position to act on. Okay, all of this is very, very reasonable. What the Trump administration has done is basically say, we don't want that power and we're giving it back. So they have dismantled the entire system for regulating, for having any involvement in the regulation of climate change. So why would they have done that? This is not as simple as saying, well, we disagree with, with the science here. I mean, this is like we're going away. Whatever power we have here, we are giving it back. We want to hear nothing. We are washing our hands of this matter. Why would you do that? And I think that the answer is not a policy point of view. It's not about climate change, it is about Donald Trump. I am against anything that the people I am against are for. So this is the kind of thing and this is dividing this. I mean, it goes further, it's dividing this line in the sand. Those are what liberals, Democrats, blue state people are for. We are against anything that they are for. By the simple act of them being forced, we are against it. That isso, it is not only that we're in a time of polarized politics, but this is taking it a step further. This is us against them.

[Mark Halperin]

But again, you feel that this is going to impact his voters in the red state just as much as anybody in the blue states?

[Michael Wolff]

Totally, yeah. No, on a lifestyle. Scientific. On. On every basis except. So what is the benefit? The benefit is we. And then he, you know, he draws this broad we as the, you know, in red states. And we MAGA people. And we Republicans are. What is our. What is our. The largest issue facing us? Not a climate apocalypse, but Democrats.

[Mark Halperin]

Right. Okay, I want to go back to the Epstein because I have one question. Is it possible that the release of the Epstein files turns out to be good for Trump?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I think already. Already it has. I mean, it has certainly taken the focus off of. Off of him and put the focus on so many other people and fractured the focus. Who do we focus on? You know, we don't know. The head of the Nobel Prize Committee, Naomi Campbell, Lynn, the Clintons. And where's Donald Trump? Just becomes a kind of, A kind of bit player. And he's done this once before when in 2016, the fall of 2016, when the. Grabbed them by the pussy tape came out. The way he got by that, the way he survived that. When no one, nobody thought he would survive this. When the, you know, when the head of the RNC came to New York, Reince Priebus at the time and said, you have to withdraw, basically, you have to withdraw from this race. We're not going to spend our money on you. And how did he survive that? He survived that by blaming it on Clinton, which he's doing again. Doing it again. And Steve Bannon had this spectacularly evil idea of, at the debate, bringing the women in that debate. And that was not the first debate. It was actually one of the, One of the debates, penultimate debates. Filling the front rows with all of the women who had the Clinton accusers. Yes.

[Mark Halperin]

Yep.

[Michael Wolff]

So again, we're just doing. Trump always does what he has done

[Mark Halperin]

before for Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah. All right.

[Michael Wolff]

So, Mark, and again, all of these people, who was the person who had the closest and the longest relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

[Mark Halperin]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And most of these people. Most of these people who are now being. Being tagged. It's an interesting thing because there's a kind of line. Did you know him? Did you know him after he was convicted and after. And that seems to be a bad story, right?

[Mark Halperin]

A watershed. Yeah, that's the line in the red line.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. But in fact, all of the bad stuff happened before this, you know, in relatively, I mean, my own feeling is that after this happened, after he was, he was. After he was sent to jail, after he was investigated, he. The idea of underage girls, he became scrupulous about that.

[Mark Halperin]

I thought he Carried on while he was in jail because he got. After six months, he was allowed work

[Michael Wolff]

release with women, not with underage women. I mean, I think, and I mean, this is again, just my impression, but and certainly in 2019, when he was charged by the federal government, that was for acts that had occurred before he went to jail.

[Mark Halperin]

Okay. All right. So Marco Rubio seems to be rising again, though he had a successful speech at the Munich Conference. Remember last year, J.D. vance went in and slapped the Europeans around. And now Marco Rubio is sort of saying, come on, guys, you've got to save your own Western civilization. We love you. We came from you. You need to step up and preserve what's great about Western culture.

[Michael Wolff]

And then see, if Marco Rubio rises, that means J.D. vance is.

[Mark Halperin]

Is falling.

[Michael Wolff]

Is falling. Yes. So thisi mean, this is clearly a Marco Rubio moment. And against all of these, against the gang that couldn't shoot straight that comprises this administration, he invariably looks good because he is actually the one person in this administration who has some professional experience in the job at hand.

[Mark Halperin]

Right. And he speaks more fluently. I mean, Pete Hegseth doesn't seem to be allowed off the teleprompter. His speech is terrible, but he doesn't seem to go off the teleprompter. Whereas Marco Rubio seems capable and intelligent

[Michael Wolff]

as well as Marco Rubio has been doing this. He's run for statewide office two times. I think now he's was in his second term, third term as a senator, as the Florida senator. He's.

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[Mark Halperin]

And he ran for president, too.

[Michael Wolff]

Ran for president. Has a significant. Has had a significant position on the Foreign Affairs Committee. Yeah, he's a pro, the one pro in the administration right now. So the interesting thing, and you can almost see him, it's a kind of fascinating process in which he is trying to adapt to. His background is entirely as a classic Republican, pro international involvement, somewhat neocon kind of guy. And now he has had to adapt those. That position, which is contrary to the Trump administration's position, to the Trump administration. And he does this, you know, I mean, it's not unimpressive. It's completely amoral to a horrifying degree. But he is clearly trying to survive this to at some point, I would suspect, turn his. What he stays up at night thinking is, I'm going to get through this, and I'm.

[Mark Halperin]

When is the moment? When's the moment? Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull it back to the middle or I'm gonna

[Michael Wolff]

finish off these guys.

[Mark Halperin]

Who?

[Michael Wolff]

I hate Lifelock. How can I help? The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't. One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.

[Mark Halperin]

What do I do? My reason fund, though.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Mark Halperin]

I'm so relieved.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Mark Halperin]

Right. And also you feel that he's trying to signal with his face. He's always looking anguished in photographs. He's looking off in the middle distance. And everybody's like, Marco. You know, the caption is always Marco Rubio looking for his soul or whatever. But you do sense that there is something more there than there is.

[Michael Wolff]

Which now the question is, when does Trump get onto this?

[Mark Halperin]

Right. And when does J.D. well, J.D. must be onto it and trying to. So he lies awake at night thinking, how do I get rid of Rubio? Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, and this is also a classic Trump thing. Let me have two guys who will kill each other and leaving who standing? Donald Trump.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah, me. All right, so what about aoc? Because AOC was also in Munich, which I don't think technically she needed to be. I think she was elected to represent the people of the Bronx and Queens, and yet there she was in Munich.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I think it's fascinating. She's obviously running for president.

[Mark Halperin]

Clearly running for president.

[Michael Wolff]

She's obviously a person outside of the, all of the conventions of running for president. And what we know now is that the person outside all of the conventions for running for whatever office you're running for has a kind of remarkable advantage.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, not always. I mean, let's not forget Abigail Spanberger in Virginia. Let's not forget Mikey Sherrill in New Jersey. I mean, she's a more interesting politician because she says things.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's. I mean, that's going to. That and that is clearly going to be the Democrats dilemma. You know, are we a middle of the road party? Are we a disruptive party?

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah, well, she's.

[Michael Wolff]

And nobody knows because nobody knows what works in that. Clearly both work, But you can only choose one.

[Mark Halperin]

So if she, who would her vice be if she were going to run part of her vice? Is she going to have an older white guy?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know.

[Mark Halperin]

Is she going to have Bernie?

[Michael Wolff]

Let's not go there.

[Mark Halperin]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

That's too far.

[Mark Halperin]

All right. But it is interesting.

[Michael Wolff]

She may not seem to buy a whole. She's only 36 years old. So she's going to. I mean, I'm sure she is playing this. This is as much a. I mean, you know, she doesn't know what to do yet.

[Mark Halperin]

Right. And it'll. Everybody's going to run for the Democratic Party. Right. Mark Kelly is making more noise. He won his case against Pete Hegseth. Kevin Newsom, obviously making noise. I like Seth Moulton from Massachusetts. I also like James Tallarico, but I also like Jasmine Crockett. So.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, so what happens. This is. We're just foreshadowing what will come into begin to clarify as soon as the midterms are done.

[Mark Halperin]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Day after the midterms, we're after the races. We better put our boots on. Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Halperin]

But we'd be able to be paying attention to the people who are going to win the midterms, too. The Talarico Jasmine Crockett primary in Texas is interesting. I think it's March 3rd, so that's

[Michael Wolff]

two weeks, I think.

[Mark Halperin]

Yeah. So we need to keep an eye on that because that's going to be. And both of them have got a lot of support. Obama was talking up James Talarico. It's very interesting. All right, so who. James Talarico? Do you mean Obama? Obama, yeah. Who?

[Michael Wolff]

Jesus.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, he's been out and about a bit. A bit more. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he's, you know.

[Mark Halperin]

But since you poked at him and said he wasn't doing anything. All right. We have lots of questions for Melania. JV Saints wants to know, is Melania receiving funds from the US Government? What state does she claim? That might be interesting for you to

[Michael Wolff]

look into two different. Is she receiving funds from the US Government? Of course. She's. She's supported in all kinds of ways by the executive branch. But what state? I don't understand that part of the question.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, I think what state is she. Does she have to be in a state to qualify for funds? Okay, here's another question. I like this question. This is from BoatNut57. Question to ask Melania in the deposition. Can your black rimmed hat be used as a weapon like the bowler hat in Goldfinger that oddjob uses to decapitate a statue? I thought that was a good question. I think it's a facetious question. I don't think you have to ask it, but it's funny. All right, here's a question. From Eternal Diplomat, when is your husband scheduled to meet with the Epstein survivors?

[Michael Wolff]

Wait a minute. When is your husband. I have to figure out whose husband, Melania's husband this is. And I will just say that I was on the street yesterday and someone came up to me and. And began talking about Melania issues and then referred to something my wife had said. Meaning I suddenly realized you. So Joanna and I are not married.

[Mark Halperin]

We are not married and we're never going to be married. But we are. We're YouTube spouses. Right? We're podcast spouses. All right. Another question for Melania. Is she the reason Trump and Epstein fell out? And that's from Judy Herring. One, five, six. Good question.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, at the center of this lawsuit and of this whole of her threats against me, of the suit we've filed against her, is what is the nature of the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump and Melania Trump? Yes.

[Mark Halperin]

Do you want to read Garfried's limerick? And then I've got another limerick from a new person.

[Michael Wolff]

This is the first time I'm seeing this, so I'm reading it fresh. There once was a crowd in first class whose secrets were buried in brass. As files disappeared and the truth engineered they governed by gaslight and sass.

[Mark Halperin]

Not bad. Not bad. Garfried. I've got another one for us. And this is from someone called Andrea Brunet or brunes. There's nothing Ms. Coles abhors more than a podcast whose leitmotifs bore. Thus she seeks new suggestions for Melania questions as Donald finds Woolf at the door. Pretty good.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay.

[Mark Halperin]

Pretty. Pretty good. As some what's his face would say. Cobra enthusiasm. I did watch a whole series of those episodes the other day and I realized that you are the equivalent of him. You are the podcast Larry David. I was going to say marry David then. Don't know why I said that. You are the podcast Larry David.

[Michael Wolff]

I disagree.

[Mark Halperin]

Okay. You would do in character. You would do. All right. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. Please leave us a comment on our YouTube channel. And what else. Anything else I need to remind people of?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know, it seems open ended.

[Mark Halperin]

Well, I think many things we should remember. Well, I think if you're also confused about what the hell is going on, read. We are really trying to lay it out.

[Michael Wolff]

Stand up, be.

[Mark Halperin]

Be a stand up guy, you know.

[Michael Wolff]

At any rate,

[Mark Halperin]

so the good news is we have so many Beast Tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino. Ryan Murray. Rachel Passer. Heather Passaro. Neil Rosenhaus.