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- [00:00]
Sleep Number Advertiser
Why choose a Sleep number Smart bed.
- [00:02]
Michael Wolff
Can I make my site softer?
- [00:03]
Rippling Advertiser
Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
- [00:07]
Sleep Number Advertiser
Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side your sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. And now max out your savings. The more you buy, the more you save on beds, bases and more. Plus get free home delivery on any smart bed with base limited time. Check it out at a sleep number.
- [00:27]
Rippling Advertiser
Store near you or@sleepnumber.com today you hired a new employee. Time to get to work, right? Not quite. First comes HR software for payroll and benefits. Then IT tools to manage devices and app access and finance software for expenses. Oh, and none of these softwares work together. That's sad. Software as a disservice. Rippling lets you run hr, IT and finance on one unified platform with automations that save time and connect your workflows for a limited time. You can get six months of rippling free when you sign up at rippling.com podcast that's R I P P L-I-N-.com podcast terms and conditions apply.
- [01:12]
Michael Wolff
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [01:19]
Dave Dufour
Hey hoops fans. The new NBA season is here and the Athletic NBA Daily is your daily dose of basketball breakfast. Join me Dave Dufour, Zena Caida and Esperahenn Monday through Friday, and Andrew Schlecht and Alex Spears on Saturday for the freshest stories, the hottest takes, and all the highlights from around the NBA, all before you finish your first cup of coffee. Whether it's a sizzling performance, a spicy trade rumor, or some smooth stat lines, we'll serve it piping hot and ready for you. So check out the Athletic NBA Daily on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:55]
Michael Wolff
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywh acast.com I did hear something and I was recount someone who was privy to the room in which you know this idea. He's going to do this ballroom. So when they came to him, the building, the contracting team on the engineering team, they came, they had a meeting and they said, you know, listen, it really would be much cheaper and faster just to tear down the east wing. And he said this was given to me as a quote. He said, fuck, but can we do the demolition at night?
- [02:43]
Joanna Coles
Wow. So, you know, so the idea would be Washington would wake up and the east wing would have evaporated Michael. Joanna, you're looking like a crisp autumn leaf, if I may say so today.
- [02:58]
Michael Wolff
Well, you know, the time has arrived.
- [03:00]
Joanna Coles
The time has arrived. People can't see it.
- [03:02]
Michael Wolff
It's overcoat. My mother used to say, never bring out your overcoat until November 1st. But when I got up this morning.
- [03:08]
Joanna Coles
At 5:00am5:00am well, people can't see that you've got a pair of what, brown is that rich chocolate brown corduroy pants on?
- [03:20]
Michael Wolff
No, no, no. Tobacco.
- [03:22]
Joanna Coles
Oh, tobacco. Tobacco. I'd forgotten about tobacco. Although I do think smoking is making a comeback, actually. I noticed that in that movie with Julia Roberts called After the Hunt, where she smokes a lot. And that is not something you see very often.
- [03:38]
Michael Wolff
You know, I mean, I'm. But as soon as you say the words, I become nostalgic.
- [03:44]
Joanna Coles
Ugh. Don't start. All right.
- [03:46]
Michael Wolff
Where did you smoke?
- [03:48]
Joanna Coles
Not really. I lived in France for a bit and I smoked very briefly, G untipped, until they made me ill, and then I never smoked again.
- [03:57]
Michael Wolff
Well, I did for many years.
- [03:58]
Joanna Coles
Did you?
- [03:59]
Michael Wolff
The best years of my life.
- [04:00]
Joanna Coles
No, the best years of your life are yet to come.
- [04:03]
Michael Wolff
Are in social media.
- [04:05]
Joanna Coles
They're yet to come. All right, where are we starting? What's. What's going on inside Trump's head, even though he's in Japan as we speak? What's going on in terms of the demolition of the White House? What are you hearing? What are you hearing?
- [04:24]
Michael Wolff
Well, I did hear something, and I was recount someone who was privy to the room in which, you know, so he has this idea. He's going to do this ballroom. It's going to be called Ballroom, by the way. And I don't know if this isthat this is official, but certainly within the White House, this has been official that this will be called the Trump Ballroom. But of course.
- [04:50]
Joanna Coles
And of course, it outweighs the size of everything else. It outmuscles everything else.
- [04:55]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, I mean, it's a kind of backdoor to how you call it the Trump White House, which might be a bridge too far, but the Trump Ballroom is going to be very much a real thing. So anyway, and of course, that he got into this by saying the White House itself would not be. Would not be touched. It's just going to be an add on. And then, of course, the White House was really touched with the wrecking ball. And so when they came to him, the building, the contracting team, the engineering team, they came, they had a meeting and they said, you know, listen, it really would be much cheaper and Faster just to tear down the East Wing. And he said, this was given to me as a quote. He said, fuck, but can we do the demolition at night?
- [05:52]
Joanna Coles
Wow. So, you know, so the idea would be Washington would wake up and the East Wing would have evaporated.
- [05:58]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. I mean, and the thing, I mean, that's a real estate developer trick. What you tear down, you cannot build back. So it's a fait accompli.
- [06:11]
Joanna Coles
Right. Once it's demolished, it's gone. Yeah. A bit like Penn Station.
- [06:16]
Michael Wolff
Well, a lot. A bit like there's a lot of projects in New York. I mean, you don't. I mean, if you're a developer from New York, when Trump is a developer from. From New York, there are always all kinds of impediments. Social, logistical, political, in some sense, like democracy itself.
- [06:38]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [06:39]
Michael Wolff
In Washington, whatever you do, whatever you propose is going to have social, logistical and political impediments. And clearly, Trump has gotten around so many of those things in the. What do we now it. The 10 months of this administration. And that kind of comes out of his experience as a real estate developer. And going back to this. How do we avoid, you know, I mean, imagine, imagine the outpouring that there would have been if he said, I'm going to tear down the White House.
- [07:17]
Joanna Coles
Right, right. Well, there was an interesting piece in the Washington Post that said this is obviously the metaphor that everybody's been talking about, but this is why people actually like Trump, because he gets things done, because he tears through the red tape.
- [07:31]
Michael Wolff
Well, we should be more specific. This may be why Jeff Bezos, who owns the Washington Post, likes Trump and has been very clearly incrementally shifting the Washington Post. Democracy dies in darkness. Remember? Like the White House. The White House dies in darkness.
- [07:58]
Joanna Coles
Right, right. Well, the White House is demolished in darkness.
- [08:01]
Michael Wolff
Yes. So. But clearly, Bezos has been organizing and directing a shift of the Washington Post, The Washington Post to a Trump, a Trump neutral and perhaps a Trump favoring publication.
- [08:19]
Joanna Coles
Well, it was a very skillfully written opinion piece because it's nodded to the fact that, in theory, the East Wing is something that we all love, but in fact, this is how change happens. And, you know, when Truman put up the Balcony, everybody thought, oh, this is outrageous. But now it's fondly called the Truman Balcony. And so this is all bullshit.
- [08:41]
Michael Wolff
I mean, this is all, you know, I mean, what's going to be. I mean, it's very clear. What is going to be built there should not be built. It's going to be out of proportion. It's going to be a vulgarity, you know, a carbuncle on the nose of an old friend, taking the Federalist Reserve of this building, I mean, which has been. I mean, which has been very symbolic of the American democracy. That's. It's fundamental. I mean, that is the right.
- [09:15]
Joanna Coles
It's not a palace. It's not a palace. It's a symbol.
- [09:18]
Michael Wolff
No, it's a kind of a little, you know, I mean, the family has a little space. The West Wing is like a kind of a college admissions office.
- [09:31]
Joanna Coles
Well, it's a sort of warren of little offices up strange staircases.
- [09:35]
Michael Wolff
Yeah.
- [09:35]
Joanna Coles
No, it's not grandiose is the point. It's not like a Russian palace. It's not like a British castle. It's not like Buckingham Palace.
- [09:43]
Michael Wolff
And even those things would be better than what this ballroom is going to be like. This ballroom is not going to be like any of those things. It is going to be like. Actually, my wife zoomed in on this. Like a wedding mill in New Jersey.
- [10:02]
Joanna Coles
Like a wedding mill in New Jersey. My repeating that phrase, by the way, is going to irritate one of our commentators. We're going to come to some of your comments later. Who said that I have a habit, an annoying habit of repeating things that you say, but often I'm repeating them because I'm thinking about them and I'm trying to make sure that people haven't missed them. If they've been making coffee or something.
- [10:21]
Michael Wolff
And anyone else can repeat them, please.
- [10:25]
Joanna Coles
So we've got the insane rapid demolition. The only thing that I think would be very interesting is if Donald Trump managed to rebuild it or build his ballroom really quickly. That would be impressive. I've got an anxiety that it's just going to lie there as a pile of rubble because he sort of moved on now.
- [10:44]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, I think. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein always said, I mean, Donald Trump was a moron and a grifter and he could go down the list of things that he was. But Epstein would say he was actually really good at organizing construction.
- [11:05]
Joanna Coles
Okay, well, let's see if that works out here, because I'm sure there are various people and actually we've had lots of people writing in saying, can people sue him and stop him putting up the ballroom? Is there a mechanism to do that?
- [11:19]
Michael Wolff
Well, there probably is, but the point is, one, you've already done it. The facts on the ground have now changed. What are you going to do, just leave it like that?
- [11:32]
Joanna Coles
Well, in some areas where there is really strict zoning, people are sometimes made to unbuild their house. So it's possible that a court or someone could come back and say historic commission something. You know, you have to rebuild it as it was. That was not your job to tear it down.
- [11:49]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, good luck with that. That's unjiv.
- [11:52]
Joanna Coles
Well, because he turns out to have the power to be able to do this. All right, so he's in Japan. Meanwhile, Steve Bannon has been talking to the economists, saying that he's working on the third term for Donald Trump. And then Donald Trump on the plane on the way over was talking about maybe a third term, but it wouldn't be that he would be the vice president to J.D. vance, because that would be weird. It would be weird. But what do we think? Third term? No third term.
- [12:19]
Michael Wolff
Well, let's go through. There are kind of. There's a couple of. There's a couple of dimensions going on here. Okay. Within the White House. I mean, nobody believes that Trump is going to have a third term. Nobody believes that he can, in any expression of the American Constitution, have a third term, nor does Trump believe this. Okay. But having said all of that, that they understand that it won't happen, that it shouldn't happen, that it can't happen. Against that context, might it yet happen? And remember so much of what Trump has done, we would have said, oh, that that can't happen.
- [13:07]
Joanna Coles
Right, right.
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Michael Wolff
And then it happens. Tearing down the White House, for instance.
- [13:14]
Joanna Coles
Well, bombing random boats in any sea that you care to mention at this point.
- [13:18]
Michael Wolff
Bombing random boats. Yes. So anyway, so then we have Steve Bannon going on stage with the editor of the Economist and announcing that it is not only will it happen, but there is already a plan in place for it to happen. Now, I think I've said here that there is no baloney like Bannon. Baloney.
- [13:46]
Joanna Coles
Right. You've definitely said that here.
- [13:48]
Michael Wolff
And I want to repeat that, because that's absolutely true. Because it's not as if Steve Bannon believes that there is actually any constitutional way for this to happen, or even that he believes that this will happen. What Steve Bannon believes is that it is going to get him notice by saying it will happen. But that does not mean that what he says that the way he understands how Trump works and what. Although Trump. And that's the other thing about this, that basically Steve was using this to suggest that he talks to Trump. He does not talk to Trump, and more importantly, Trump does not talk to him because Trump really dislikes Steve Bannon.
- [14:43]
Joanna Coles
Well, and it feels to me like Steve Bannon had a moment where he got Donald Trump elected and they used each other, and then they had no use for each other right now.
- [14:54]
Michael Wolff
But we're. And remember, Steve Bannon has then styled himself, even before Donald Trump, as the spear of this new movement, the MAGA movement, although it wasn't even called MAGA then. And is he now trying to style himself as the spear of a third term? And again, there's a whole bunch of jujitsu acts going on here, because clearly, Steve doesn't believe. Steve is a smart guy, doesn't believe that this is possible. But how do you make the impossible possible? And if you are the guy who elected Donald Trump president, you really do believe I can make the impossible possible. And what he knows about Donald Trump, I mean, there are a couple of very key things here that the best way to talk to Donald Trump is not in person. It's through the media, right? And then you have a situation where people are saying, and Trump will start to repeat this, people are saying that I'm going to have a third term. That means Steve Bannon is saying, Right.
- [16:07]
Joanna Coles
Steve Bannon has lit the spark, right?
- [16:10]
Michael Wolff
And while this is not at all possible, not possible, nevertheless, what Steve Bannon now, in his further iteration of this, is saying to people is, what if the Republicans simply nominate nobody else and nominate Donald Trump again? What happens if you clearly have the will of a major party, the will of the people here, the Republicans have nominated Donald Trump for a third term and not anyone else. There is a nominating convention, they nominate Donald Trump. And then there's a kind of peculiar argument that they say, well, a president cannot. You can only have two terms, but that doesn't mean you can't run for a third term.
- [17:07]
Joanna Coles
Right?
- [17:08]
Michael Wolff
And again, all this is ridiculous, preposterous, but again, it's the world of Donald Trump, right?
- [17:17]
Joanna Coles
And Donald Trump was ridiculous and preposterous back in 2011 at the White House Correspondents Dinner where they mocked up that idea that Trump would somehow get into the White House and build his own vision of the White House with big Trump in neon at the front of it. And as you say, the minute it's out in the media and people start talking about it, it takes on a life of its own. And suddenly you see a way where, God forbid, but this could be possible.
- [17:46]
Michael Wolff
Now, I would just like to add to the side of this discussion and wonder why the Economist, a genuinely respectable magazine, a magazine of enormous restraint and care, is in fact interviewing Steve Bannon on the stage. Steve Bannon just A gadfly who will say anything.
- [18:10]
Joanna Coles
Well, he craves attention. Right. He's always like that.
- [18:14]
Michael Wolff
He'll go anywhere. He'll go on any stage. But why would the Economist have him on the stage? Now, I know from Bannon's point of view, and the Economist had him on the stage in, I think that would have been 2018 in New York with the editor, the current editor, Zanny Beddoes.
- [18:39]
Joanna Coles
Zanny Minton Beddoes, yes.
- [18:40]
Michael Wolff
And I was there with Bannon at the time, and he became infatuated with the editor.
- [18:49]
Joanna Coles
Bannon became infatuated with Zanny Minton Meadows.
- [18:51]
Michael Wolff
Yes, I remember. He came. Came off the stage. So I was there, and. And he said, in what world do you think I could go out with her?
- [19:01]
Joanna Coles
I don't want to disappoint him, but I think in no world, I think, funny enough, I know Zanny and I know her husband, Sebastian. I think, in no world, I don't want to disappoint Steve, and yet I do. Yeah, well, you know, and he's not alone in that. A lot of people find her very attractive. She's got a similar vibe. She won't like me saying this. Got a slightly similar vibe to Margaret Thatcher in that she has a sense of mischief about her, even as she speaks rather strictly and severely. And she's very smart. So she's a combination of smart and slightly mischievous.
- [19:36]
Michael Wolff
Well. And Steve might like strict woman, if you know what I mean.
- [19:43]
Joanna Coles
I don't even want to think about.
- [19:45]
Michael Wolff
But there's another thing I was.
- [19:49]
Joanna Coles
But she's very appealing. Zanny is what I'm saying. She's very appealing.
- [19:53]
Michael Wolff
Steve once met a woman by the name of Kathy Ruemmler, who was the White House counsel to Obama. You know, a very smart woman and smart, attractive. And again, he asked that thing. He said, do you think I could.
- [20:13]
Joanna Coles
So it sounds like Steve's on the market, ladies, for.
- [20:19]
Michael Wolff
For establishment women.
- [20:22]
Joanna Coles
So if there are any establishment women out there and you're currently single and you're looking for a provocateur and perhaps a flanner, Steve Bannon's your guy. You can reach out to us, and we will put you in touch. Michael will put you in touch.
- [20:37]
Michael Wolff
Let's do it. Yes.
- [20:38]
Joanna Coles
Okay. So we're turning into a dating agency. Something very, very odd going on here. I will say I did think Donald Trump looked very lonely as he was walking down what felt like the endless steps of Air Force One as he landed in Japan. And you very much felt like, where is Melania? Why isn't she on this tour with him? I would have thought she might want to go to Japan and he just looked isolated and.
- [21:05]
Michael Wolff
But that seems to assume that Melania actually has any kind of filial connection to him.
- [21:13]
Joanna Coles
No, I thought she might like a shopping trip to Japan because Japan is great for shopping.
- [21:18]
Michael Wolff
Except that she would have to go with him.
- [21:20]
Joanna Coles
True, true. So she's obviously not with him.
- [21:24]
Michael Wolff
But I will say the other thing is that Trump doesn't like to travel. I mean, it's always a big issue not sleeping in his own bed.
- [21:34]
Joanna Coles
Well, he's in his own bed on Air Force One, even though he hasn't got the new Qatari plane up to speed yet. I'm sure he'll have a very comfortable.
- [21:40]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, no, but he doesn't. He finds Air Force One incredibly uncomfortable, which is why we have this new plane on order.
- [21:50]
Joanna Coles
Didn't you tell me once about his first term that when he got on the plane, he would always find Wilbur Ross on the plane. And Wilbur Ross always managed to find out when Air Force One was about to take off with Trump on it. And he would somehow muscle his way onto the plane and Donald Trump would be like, what's Wilbur Ross doing?
- [22:08]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. Thank you.
- [22:10]
Joanna Coles
That was a very good story. I've read your books. I've read your books and I've loved your books.
- [22:14]
Michael Wolff
I.
- [22:14]
Joanna Coles
And I've listened to your books, which is a bit like being stuck inside Michael's head, not Donald Trump's head. Okay, so we've got Trump in Asia. He doesn't like to travel. I wondered if he was somewhat haunted by the fact that the former premier of Japan, Shinzo Abe, was assassinated by a bullet. I feel like nobody's talking about that this trip. And yet this is something that surely must haunt. We know they got on, remember, during Trump 1, Abe came over and in fact, Trump got out some classified documents to show him at Mar A Lago, which someone then managed to photograph. But he was someone who was, in theory, a diplomatic friend of Trump's who was, you know, who was killed in the line of.
- [23:00]
Michael Wolff
No, I mean, and if you think about it, I mean, he's. There are two assassination attempts against, against Trump. So he comes face to face in another circumstance where actually somebody was assassinated. So, yes, you're asking the right question. The problem with the answer here and the problem with Trump is that you can't imagine any context in which he has that moment of self awareness. Certainly he has never let on that there is a side of him which might ruminate about the existential.
- [23:39]
Joanna Coles
Do you think Trump dreams?
- [23:43]
Michael Wolff
Again, we don't know. Trump is a kind of a stick figure, if you think about that. I mean, there is no suggestion ever in anything he does, in anything he says, in anything we've context in which we've seen of him, of his fundamental humanity.
- [24:06]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so, no, the answer is you don't think he dreams, or maybe he has incredible nightmares.
- [24:12]
Michael Wolff
We just don't know. I mean, the only thing I know about Trump at night is I reported this in Fire and Fury, is that in the early days when he was in the White House, he threw a fit because the White House domestic staff stripped his sheets and he announced that he never wanted that to happen again and he would take his sheets off the bed. What that possibly means, I have no idea.
- [24:47]
Joanna Coles
Well, then, didn't you also say, and I think it's in Fire and Fury, that the Secret Service insisted he slept in the bedroom unlocked because obviously they have to get him out if there's some crisis in the White House. And he insisted on locking his bedroom door.
- [25:01]
Michael Wolff
Exactly, exactly. So that's what we know about Trump at night. We don't know anything else, except he also watches a lot of television and has more than one screen that he is watching.
- [25:12]
Joanna Coles
Well, I'm sure he goes to sleep. Yeah, like me, I have four screens. I think he goes to sleep with the television and wakes up with the television on so that he has no sense of ever being on his own. But in the movie version of this, I think he would wake up screaming. Like the Scream, the Munch painting, which is in fact hanging in Leon Black's living room, having been paid 120 million for.
- [25:36]
Michael Wolff
You think it's in his living room? Do you know it's in his living room?
- [25:39]
Joanna Coles
I'm told it's in his living room. Yeah. I was told by someone who saw it in his living room. And I think there is some sort of weird justification that after spending all that money on Jeffrey Epstein, even more money on Jeffrey Epstein than you spend on the Monks. The Scream. One of four screams, but the best one, that every morning you have to come down and look at it hanging over your fireplace.
- [26:02]
Michael Wolff
Yes. Except that if you have.
- [26:05]
Joanna Coles
I think Munch got the last laugh there.
- [26:07]
Michael Wolff
If you have 15 billion, or is it 20 billion? The whole idea of value is.
- [26:16]
Joanna Coles
No, no, it's not about the value. It's about what the picture says, the scream itself. You know, the expressionist moment of that moment where you're Walking over the bridge and everything is screaming at you. You're not just the scream. The world is screaming.
- [26:33]
Michael Wolff
Whatever pictures you hang on your wall, you stop seeing them.
- [26:37]
Joanna Coles
No, really? No. I have a very good painting of a woman in a Walmart, and I look at it all the time and think about the nightmare of shopping in a supermarket, which is why I no longer do it. I do it on Instacart, where I discovered this week that a quart, or half a quart, whatever the size of the milk I get is, which is the same size as Everybody's milk, was $9. Couldn't believe how expensive things are. Very expensive indeed. All right, so the other thing we were going to discuss.
- [27:06]
Michael Wolff
You don't probably shop a lot.
- [27:08]
Joanna Coles
I used to shop all the time, but now I've discovered Instacart, and I'm like, why am I going to these supermarkets? I don't want to go to them. Hunter versus Don junior. Last night, I sat next to someone at dinner who'd been at school with Eric Trump and Don Jr. In fact, Don had just left as this fellow I was sitting with had joined the school. He said that Eric was very nice, very unpolitical, and had won the woodworking championship prize. He said he wasn't very athletic because I tend to think of the Trump boys as being athletic because they're sort of thin. He said he was not athletic at all. But he did win the woodworking championship, which would play into the family's construction history. Perhaps he could work on the new East Wing as it goes up. The ballroom. The Trump Ballroom.
- [27:53]
Michael Wolff
Well, it brings up a whole other question of how the Trump family is making money off of the. The new East Wing and the new ballroom, which we should.
- [28:02]
Joanna Coles
We should get into that. What do you. What do you hear?
- [28:04]
Michael Wolff
Give some thought. I haven't, but I'm sure that there's. That there's no. That any construction would be irresistible. And obviously they are. They are soliciting money all over the place. And it kind of sounds like in the producer's movie. I mean, what point do you stop? At what point have you paid for your project? 100%? Or do you keep going? We've now.
- [28:34]
Joanna Coles
Well, we know the price has kept going. Right. Because originally it was going to. The estimate was 200 million. Now it's gone up to 350.
- [28:40]
Michael Wolff
Right. And why not just keep raising?
- [28:42]
Joanna Coles
And what would the extra money be spent on?
- [28:44]
Michael Wolff
We don't know, but we can begin to guess.
- [28:48]
Joanna Coles
Yep.
- [28:49]
Michael Wolff
And let's toss it to our sponsors.
- [28:54]
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- [28:56]
Michael Wolff
Can I make my site softer?
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Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?
- [29:01]
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- [30:04]
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- [30:35]
Joanna Coles
And Michael Wolff and I are back inside Trump's head. If you're Gavin Newsom and you come in as the next president, do you just rip it down?
- [30:44]
Michael Wolff
And it's very hard to rip these things down.
- [30:46]
Joanna Coles
Well, it's not though, because Donald Trump just did it. So if he's. I mean, the flip side of all of what Trump's doing, right, is that it's calling the Democrats.
- [30:55]
Michael Wolff
You could do this too, possibly. I mean these are not lessons that this Democrats easily learn, for one thing. And that goes back to Hunter and Don Jr. So I mean, Hunter Biden obviously was hoisted because he had relationships with these, specifically a gas company in Ukraine. And that certainly could have been inferred that he was there in getting paid because his father was the president of the United States. I mean, even if there was no quid pro quo, it was, you know, it still was obviously helpful to the Ukrainian oil company Burisma that on its board sat the son of the President of the United States.
- [31:50]
Joanna Coles
And certainly if you examined Hunter's resume, there'd be no great expertise he would be bringing to a Ukrainian gas board.
- [31:57]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. And so that was a particular vulnerability that the Republicans, and especially the Trumpers exploited artfully. More than artfully. I mean, it became matter of fact, I used to sit with the. With the Trump. Various of the Trump operatives, and whenever anything went wrong in the Trump campaign, they would look at each other and go, Hunter. And that was the default. Whenever anything, you just reverted to Hunter.
- [32:33]
Joanna Coles
So you threw Hunter out like a piece of red meat to the media.
- [32:37]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. It always was the effective change of subject. You're going to accuse us of whatever. But remember Hunter. And possibly it had to do with the name. Such a good name to do. You could just say Hunter. But if you compare Hunter, what Hunter did to what Don Jr. Is doing now on an almost daily basis, a grift like no grift we have ever seen, using the fact that his father is the President of the United States to position himself in all kinds of deals which are paying off now to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. The crypto business.
- [33:21]
Joanna Coles
Well, and there's the drone business, too.
- [33:22]
Michael Wolff
And then now the drone business. Yes. So this is a kind of monument. We have never, in all of the miscreant relatives of many presidents which we have seen before. Hunter is certainly not the first one, but we have never seen a level of miscreantism like Don Jr. It just is. He just is monetizing his father's presidency at a level. At just an extraordinary level. I mean, then we can also talk about the son in law, of course, Jared Kushner, who has monetized at an even larger level. But I think it's that it's an interesting thing that the Republicans could so have effectively weaponized Hunter, Hunter Biden. And the Democrats are so miserable at being able to make the case that the son of the President of the United States at this point in his time is ripping everybody off.
- [34:38]
Joanna Coles
Right. That he and Jared Kushner are enriching themselves to the tune of hundreds of millions and billions of dollars. Why isn't this front and foremost of what Democrats are talking about?
- [34:50]
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- [34:50]
Michael Wolff
And it could be just because, you know, you know, that old thing, you borrow a little from the bank, the bank owns you, you borrow a lot, you own the bank. The grift is so big here that it overshadows any ability to quantify it or to. Or to look at it as it becomes business as Usual.
- [35:19]
Joanna Coles
And it's weird that people aren't more up in arms about it. I mean, here we are on day 28 of the government shutdown, which barely seems to be resonating with people unless you're about to not get your food box from.
- [35:34]
Michael Wolff
Well, not get your paycheck. So we've now passed the first due date of a paycheck. We will pass within a few days, the federal food subsidies run out. So, yes, out there somewhere, this is beginning to. Not just beginning, is resonating. It's having real meaningful human impact.
- [36:04]
Joanna Coles
Yeah. We have 750,000 government employees. Federal employees furloughed.
- [36:10]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. Who are not getting a.
- [36:11]
Joanna Coles
Who are not getting paid.
- [36:12]
Michael Wolff
No, this is how, this is how people finance their lives from paycheck to paycheck. Everybody except, you know, Donald Trump's friends.
- [36:22]
Joanna Coles
Right. And Donald Trump's family and of course congress people and senators who are all.
- [36:28]
Michael Wolff
Still being paid and the, all the. And they. I. Stupefying number of rich people in this country.
- [36:37]
Joanna Coles
Yeah. All right, well, where does that take us? Does that take us to some comments? Might take us to some comments.
- [36:43]
Michael Wolff
Okay, go to the comments.
- [36:45]
Joanna Coles
All right, so comments, Michael. So what Several people pointed out that I had asked you the question about how does JD Vance react when Stephen Miller is in the room? Stephen Miller, obviously, you know, highly anti immigrant and also Kash Patel. What is it like for them? I mean, obviously J.D. vance is married to a woman of Indian descent, Kash Patel. How do they react?
- [37:09]
Michael Wolff
You mean. And let's set the context, because Stephen Miller is a, is effectively an unreconstructed racist.
- [37:19]
Joanna Coles
Well, because he's rounding up brown people.
- [37:24]
Michael Wolff
In every aspect of his, of his certainly political life.
- [37:30]
Joanna Coles
So.
- [37:31]
Michael Wolff
Well, I mean, I have two comments. First thing, everybody hates everybody else in this White House. I don't think that there's any illusion otherwise. This is not a White House in which people are collaborating. This is a White House in which everybody has only one, one relationship, and that's with the President of the United States.
- [37:56]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so it's the opposite of collegial.
- [37:59]
Michael Wolff
Yes. And it'. Syes. It's not even that these are competitors. It's just everybody, everybody is dependent on the favor of Donald Trump. So they're really not even looking at each other. They don't really care about each. They hate each other. You know what? Because it's zero sum if you get favorite. I don't get favor zero.
- [38:21]
Joanna Coles
Something. Okay.
- [38:22]
Michael Wolff
So, you know, in terms of Stephen Miller, I think everybody recognizes this is one peculiar person. But having said that, he has the favor of the President of the United States. Therefore, you have to. You can acknowledge to yourself how peculiar he is and how hateful you find him and hate. And you hate him because he's getting the favor. But he is getting the favor. Therefore, you have to treat him as a. You have to take him very seriously.
- [39:02]
Joanna Coles
Well, and not only is he getting the favor, he's getting the action on the streets of ice, turning up masked men bundling brown people, as you pointed out in our last podcast, not just any immigrant, but brown immigrants into the back of vans where they may or may not return from.
- [39:19]
Michael Wolff
I mean, there is this other perfectly human response, you know, that Kash Patel, a brown person, and Usha Vance, a brown person, cease to see themselves as brown people. They see themselves as Trump people. Therefore, what does that make them?
- [39:44]
Joanna Coles
Okay, well, people have got their answer. People have got their answer. Okay, Now, Michael, what happened to the bomb shelter, the bunker under the East Wing? This is where George Bush and Dick Cheney, I believe, were taken at 9 11.
- [39:57]
Michael Wolff
Well, this is a good, A good, A good question, because what. Where would they be taken now?
- [40:03]
Joanna Coles
Well, that question was from Sandra Fickett, by the way. I don't know. Where would they be taken now?
- [40:07]
Michael Wolff
I don't know, but I don't know. I mean, you know, the, I don't know, the whole excavation process. I mean, this is very deep underground, these bomb shelters. I mean, one of the interesting things about the White House, which we don't appreciate, is that the White House is a kind of facade on top of a military base.
- [40:32]
Joanna Coles
Oh, that's interesting. I never thought of it like that. Is that right? So it's hugely deep underneath.
- [40:37]
Michael Wolff
I mean, this is a military. The White House is. Is a military installation.
- [40:41]
Joanna Coles
Okay.
- [40:42]
Michael Wolff
And then it has, you know, it looks and has this elegant federalist front, but below it is, you know, is a fortified installation.
- [40:58]
Joanna Coles
Okay, so we're assuming that's still there.
- [41:01]
Michael Wolff
I would assume, yes.
- [41:03]
Joanna Coles
Okay. All right, good question. Sandra Fox.
- [41:05]
Michael Wolff
I'm assuming, and I don't know. And if anyone else. If anyone has more information on this totally fascinating question, actually.
- [41:11]
Joanna Coles
Okay, someone else, kc4ny says, is there a way to stop White House destruction?
- [41:17]
Michael Wolff
Apparently not.
- [41:19]
Joanna Coles
Okay, Not. Not optimistic. All right, got some more questions here. Oh, here we go. And we. We're thinking of starting a new segment of the podcast called Ask Melania, which would be questions that people could write in for when you get to.
- [41:36]
Michael Wolff
So when. Yeah, no, I think that this is a good. This is a good idea. And this would be actually helpful. So if you don't know, I am suing the first lady, if you're the last to know. And I mean, this comes about because she was threatening to sue me for the things that I have said about her, about her relationship to Jeffrey Epstein, her relationship and her husband's relationship to Jeffrey Epstein, something that they don't want to talk about. And so their response to that was to threaten to sue me for a billion dollars. But in a turning of the tables, I in fact went into court and sued her. I am now suing her in New York. And under New York state's anti slap laws, which is to say you cannot threaten someone for defamation and libel if your real intention is just to make them shut up. That's against the law in New York State. So I have sued Melania. I intend to and look forward to taking her deposition as well as her husband's deposition and the deposition of many other people who were involved in the Epstein Circle circa the late 90s. This would be. But so our new feature here, which we should return to and please, please give us, give us your questions is what should I ask or my lawyers ask Melania when we get her under oath in front of a court reporter? This could be fun.
- [43:25]
Joanna Coles
It could be great fun. And also people are asking, where is your GoFundMe page? People are wanting to donate your legal fees. You're going to inevitably, and I completely.
- [43:35]
Michael Wolff
Appreciate that and will in fact have to call on you because this is going to be expensive. The GoFundMe page, which I have tried to set up, is now suspiciously, when you go there, they say, under review. I don't know what that means. I don't know if what that means is the GoFundMe people, whoever that is, want nothing to do with politics or nothing to do. You know, everybody is afraid, which is why I'm saying, stuck having to be the one who has to sue the first lady and pay for this. Nobody wants to do this. No media organization has stepped forward to do this. And I think GoFundMe may also be full of trepidation about getting involved in this. But it would be helpful to me, everybody, if you reach out to GoFundMe and say, what the hell?
- [44:32]
Joanna Coles
Well, and if anybody's watching this from GoFundMe or the founder of GoFundMe, who, we should find out who it is. If anybody has any connections with people who work at GoFundMe, please let us know. When we asked for connections to the people that organized no kings. In fact, someone reached out and I have a number for us to call. So we will be calling.
- [44:51]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. But under review. What is that? You know, anyway, I don't know what that, what that, what that means.
- [44:58]
Joanna Coles
Well, a ton of people have reached out to say where is your GoFundMe?
- [45:01]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. And I think, and I really appreciate this because this is going to be God awfully expensive.
- [45:07]
Joanna Coles
Right.
- [45:08]
Michael Wolff
And they're going to, the Trumps obviously, obviously are going to make sure it's going to be expensive for me.
- [45:14]
Joanna Coles
Well, and I'm sure lots of lawyers will step forward too because they will want to help you on this.
- [45:20]
Michael Wolff
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- [47:04]
Joanna Coles
And Michael and I are sorting through the pink stuff inside Trump's head. All right, what about when a president sues a newspaper? Is he doing it in his official capacity or as a private citizen? Can he be sued as a private citizen for SLAPP laws? And that's from Cheryl LaRome. BT4.
- [47:30]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, a couple of things here and this is important. Presidents have never sued. They have never sued the media. The only person to do this is Donald Trump. I mean, there have been situations in which the administration has engaged the media in legal proceedings. The Pentagon Papers obviously comes to mind, but that is not on an individual basis. Trump now sues individually. So he has sued abc. He has sued CBS in both those situations. They settled with him in those settlements. $16 million in one instance, $15 million in the other instance goes to him. It doesn't go to the treasury of.
- [48:23]
Joanna Coles
The United States, but it goes to his library fund.
- [48:27]
Michael Wolff
It goes. Yes, which, which is a fund wholly controlled by him.
- [48:33]
Joanna Coles
And then he's also suing Rupert Murdoch's the Wall Street Journal for the revelation of the Jeffrey Epstein birthday letter.
- [48:41]
Michael Wolff
Right. And suing the New York Times, who also reported on that. So. And actually, that lawyer is the same lawyer who threatened me on Melania's behalf, who is now the same lawyer who's.
- [48:58]
Joanna Coles
Gone after the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.
- [49:00]
Michael Wolff
Yes. I don't know if he's the Wall Street. I think he is the Wall Street Journal, but he certainly is the lawyer pursuing New York Times.
- [49:10]
Joanna Coles
Oh, well, happy days. Happy days. All right. Well, Michael, you better get back at it then. You better get back at it in your crisp autumn outfit.
- [49:19]
Michael Wolff
When am I going to see you out in the crisp autumn air in the Hamptons?
- [49:24]
Joanna Coles
Well, we're getting together again on Thursday. Right. For Thursdays. Inside Trump's head. What do we think's inside Trump's head as he flies back to the U.S.
- [49:34]
Michael Wolff
Well, you know, I think that thisi mean, what's so far most interesting to me about this trip is the China negotiation, which is the whole point of this trip. So Trump has piled onto China since the beginning of the administration, you know, tariffs, threats, you know, essentially, you know, essentially waging a very cold war against China. China has responded. China has a whole set of controls, a whole set of minerals, without which we are in some amount of dire shape. So effectively, what it appears is that he is going into this negotiation with China to undo every threat he has made. So, I mean, we should really keep our eye on that. And again, this is one of those things. Here's a story for the Democrats that in his cold war with China, he is about to accept defeat.
- [50:41]
Joanna Coles
Okay, we'll be back on Thursday to examine that more and see what's come out of the conversations he's about to have.
- [50:48]
Michael Wolff
He will claim victory. Of course.
- [50:50]
Joanna Coles
Of course he will. Of course he will. By the way, there's a paperclip here. And according to E. Jean Carroll, the paperclip is the accessory of the fall because you can either wear it, obviously, or you can use it to unpick locks and various other things. But she was determined it's to do.
- [51:09]
Michael Wolff
With resistance in this is a hell of a metaphor.
- [51:12]
Joanna Coles
Germany, of course, yes, it's a hell of a metaphor. But people seem to respond to it. And if you haven't, if you haven't listened to it, I want you to go and listen to E. Jean Carroll and Robby Kaplan because they are so energized by their battle with Donald Trump, as they should.
- [51:28]
Michael Wolff
Yep, 95 million, as I recall, 83.3.
- [51:32]
Joanna Coles
Million with another 5 on top, which they're waiting for. And Eugene had a wonderful description of his hair like Tippi Hedren's in the Birds. It was a perfect description of him. And she, she talks about what it's like and you've talked about this too, but being in the courtroom with him because you cannot look anywhere else because he's huffing and puffing and snorting and moving and fiddling and he's like a one man entertainment center. And Robbie Kaplan talked about when she was summing up for the jury, being very conscious of not even looking in his direction because she had some stay utterly focused on the jury. It's a very good interview at the Daily Beast podcast on in the same channel where you find Inside Trump's head, Michael Wolf. Joanna Coles, that's the end of today's episode. Do you want to thank our team and remind people to subscribe, please? Oh, and we should add the good news that our event at the Museum of the City of New York has already sold out. So thank you. We're very excited to meet people in the flesh next Wednesday.
- [52:44]
Michael Wolff
What does sold out means?
- [52:45]
Joanna Coles
Literally means there are no more tickets. And I've got friends who I sent, you know, a link to saying please come because I was worried that nobody would come. They're like, we can't get tickets completely.
- [52:55]
Michael Wolff
Sold out, but you could line up anyway.
- [52:59]
Joanna Coles
I don't want people to line up. I want them to come to the next one.
- [53:03]
Michael Wolff
Great, let's do it.
- [53:05]
Joanna Coles
And don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast and don't forget to leave a comment or a review on Apple and Spotify. That would be helpful too. Or comments on YouTube and don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast community where you get tons of extra content.
- [53:21]
Michael Wolff
Anything else?
- [53:22]
Joanna Coles
Well, there's a very very good op vid by Nell Scovell, who has been chronicling with incredible care and detail Ivanka Trump's posts, and she juxtaposes them with what her father has been saying and the various madnesses that are going on here, and then how Ivanka is embracing peace, looking fabulous at the gym, looking out wistfully into the middle distance over a pea green sea. So there you go. Those are just some of the benefits of being a member of the Daily Beast community and a shout out to our top tier Beebeast members Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel and Free dc. Thanks to our production team Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erssen and Jesse Millwood.
- [54:16]
Michael Wolff
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [54:24]
Dave Dufour
Hey hoops fans, the new NBA season is here and the Athletic NBA Daily is your daily dose of basketball breakfast. Join me Dave Deforestation, Zena Caida and Esperaheny Monday through Friday, and Andrew Schlecht and Alex Spears on Saturday for the freshest stories, the hottest takes and all the highlights from around the NBA, all before you finish your first cup of coffee. Whether it's a sizzling performance, a spicy trade rumor or some smooth stat lines, we'll serve it piping hot and ready for you. So check out the Athletic NBA Daily on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [54:59]
Michael Wolff
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