Trump-Putin Meet Was Way Worse Than We Knew: Wolff

Summary

Podcast Summary: Inside Trump’s Head: “Trump-Putin Meet Was Way Worse Than We Knew: Wolff”

Podcast: Inside Trump’s Head
Hosts: Michael Wolff (Trump chronicler), Joanna Coles (Daily Beast)
Date: August 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers a raw, insider analysis of Donald Trump’s recent meeting with Vladimir Putin in Anchorage, Alaska, with Michael Wolff offering new details about how disastrously it unfolded. The co-hosts dissect the global consequences, Trump’s psychological state, and what drives him in encounters with world leaders. Discussion veers into Trump’s health, his motivations, and a bombshell about Jeffrey Epstein’s clandestine dealings with Putin during the Trump presidency. They also answer pointed listener questions about Trump, Epstein, and Melania.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter: Mapping Trump’s Mind

• Coles and Wolff joke about their roles (“spelunking through the minefield” vs. “navigating” Trump’s psyche), setting an irreverent tone for the deep-dive analysis.
• Coles announces a new segment: answering listener comments, including questions on Trump’s mental health and the Epstein-Russia connection.
  [01:36–03:22]

2. The Current Climate: From Epstein to Ukraine

• Interest in Jeffrey Epstein has waned in the headlines but not on the podcast.
• FBI leadership shake-ups and Congressional scrutiny into DOJ files on Epstein continue.
• "What does Putin have on Donald Trump?" is introduced as a guiding question for the episode.
• The Ukrainian peace negotiations have devolved with Trump’s unpredictable involvement. [03:22–04:36]
  Quote:

  "We went into this peace negotiation and we've come out of it in which everything is far worse than when we went into it."
  — Michael Wolff [04:36]

3. Trump’s Role in the Ukraine Peace Talks: Chaos & Confusion

• Trump’s erratic personality complicates world diplomacy, with global leaders focused primarily on “how to play Donald Trump, who can be played. Everybody knows he can be played well.” (Wolff, [05:12])
• Europe is left with no clear resolution:

  “Trump has authorized Putin to take a big chunk of Ukraine... Possibly the Ukrainians would agree... unless they have... security guarantees."
  — Michael Wolff [05:49]

• Trump offers meaningless "security guarantees" he clearly doesn’t understand. No one is confident what these guarantees actually entail.
  [06:52–07:36]

4. The Anchorage Meeting: Inside the Room with Trump & Putin

• Participants: Trump, Putin, Marco Rubio, Steve Witkoff, two with Putin, and interpreters.
• Trump launches into a rambling monologue—“a combination of flattery... observations... inconsequential and incoherent.”
• Rubin and Witkoff attempt to redirect but are ignored by Trump, as Putin sits impassively, using the ‘vacuum’ to his advantage. [09:41–15:55]
  Quote:

  "Putin is impassive, this is described, just expressionless, impassive. Just letting him go on and he goes on."
  — Michael Wolff [11:09]
  “Trump’s history of the Cold War, it would appear that the US and USSR are on the same side.” — Michael Wolff [13:13]

• When substantive matters—like a ceasefire—finally arise, Putin flatly dismisses them, Trump acquiesces, and the group lurches forward without clarity or progress.
• Witkoff and Rubio are “basically helpless... you can't really interject because Trump just talks all the time.”
• The lack of substantive negotiation suits Putin, and Trump’s main priority is simply to be heard.
  [15:55]

5. Trump’s Declining Cognition and Health

• Increasing confusion: Trump mistakes Alaska for Russia, can’t identify leaders at diplomatic events, reads from basic notes. [17:47–18:22]
  Quote:

  “Is he losing a step? Has he lost a step? And my question would be, how can you tell? He has always been essentially like this.”
  — Michael Wolff [18:22]

• Physical decline: his hair is now bizarrely lavender, his ankles are swollen (“cankles”), posture is “like a giant shrimp” (thanks to Steve Bannon’s memorable line).
• Trump is “almost 80 years old” and exhibiting noticeable circulation and mobility issues—yet remains tireless in his monologues. [19:52–22:53]

6. What Does Putin Have On Trump?

• Wolff observes Trump's chronic deference and compliance to Putin—nearly a decade now—regardless of bravado beforehand.

  "He just folds in the face of Putin... Instead, he shows up, and Putin is his best friend."
  — Michael Wolff [23:07]

• Joanna describes European leaders’ “revoltingly sycophantic” attempts to perform for Trump, including a wink from Macron to Zelenskyy ([23:54]).

7. Jeffrey Epstein’s Secret Trip to Moscow

• Wolff reveals Epstein claimed he secretly travelled to Russia during Trump’s first year, to help Putin with “money”—routing through Stockholm, then multiple planes to avoid detection.
• Epstein was likely invited, but might have maneuvered for the invite; his role was to aid with large sums of illicit Putin cash, allegedly outside standard banks.

  “I have no reason to doubt this except that it's a kind of a monumental claim... According to Epstein, having to do with money.”
  — Michael Wolff [27:13]

• Epstein was a “great gossip,” prone to trading information for advantage, not hiding state secrets—“if Putin was interested in Donald Trump... Epstein would have been able to supply him with very interesting information.”
  [28:09–32:47]
• Key insight:

  “Donald Trump doesn't know what Putin has on him, but suspects that he probably does... there's so much to have on Donald Trump.”
  — Michael Wolff [32:47]

• Joanna proposes Putin might have invested in Trump businesses or PACs via intermediaries—Wolff notes Putin gains more by keeping Trump guessing than making direct threats.
  [32:57–33:43]

8. Listener Q&A

• Donald Barr, Bill Barr’s father, did hire Epstein at Dalton (confirmed).
  [35:12]
• “How does the US recover from the stain of Trumpism?”

  “I think we will. The history will turn, but it's there. It's like McCarthyism. It's like the war in Vietnam.”
  — Michael Wolff [35:48]

• What does Melania know? “I think she knows an enormous amount.”
  [36:32]
• Is there any record of Trump sympathizing with Epstein’s victims? “Not that I’m familiar with.”
  [36:54]

9. Final Reflections & Preview

• Wolff marvels at the key truth: Trump’s incessant, overpowering monologue is impossible to corral, and this has global consequences. “He doesn’t ever, ever, ever shut up.” [37:26]
• Teaser: Next episode will analyze “Why does Donald Trump talk so much?”
  [37:26]

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “The war in Ukraine has now come to be about strategizing how to deal with this capricious and volatile asshole who has put himself right in the middle of it.”
  — Michael Wolff [04:50]

• “Putin is impassive... just letting him go on and he goes on.”
  — Michael Wolff [11:09]

• “It's both inconsequential and incoherent.”
  — Michael Wolff on Trump’s meeting performance [11:13]

• “Trump’s history of the Cold War... it would appear that the US and USSR are on the same side.”
  — Michael Wolff [13:13]

• “He’s almost 80 years old... the amazing thing is that this hasn’t taken its toll sooner.”
  — Michael Wolff [19:56]

• “Steve Bannon once described that to me as Trump sitting down... he looks like a giant shrimp.”
  — Michael Wolff [22:38]

• “Donald Trump doesn’t know what Putin has on him, but suspects he probably does.”
  — Michael Wolff [32:47]

• “He doesn’t ever, ever, ever shut up.”
  — Michael Wolff [37:26]

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Flow & Tone

The conversation is candid, irreverent, and skeptical. Wolff’s insider stories and dry wit combine with Coles' sharp questions and playful incredulity. Their rapport makes the podcast feel both intimate and urgent, capturing the absurdity and gravity of Trump’s impact on world events.

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Summary for the Uninitiated

Listeners are taken behind the scenes of Trump’s meeting with Putin, with Wolff painting an alarming portrait of chaos, incoherence, and geopolitical risk. Trump’s cognitive and physical decline is laid bare, while the lingering question of “what does Putin have on Trump” is explored through the bombshell revelation of Epstein’s backdoor dealings with the Kremlin. It’s a blend of psychological profiling, political analysis, and dark comedy—unmissable for anyone tracking the Trump era’s global fallout.

Transcript

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[Joanna]

Over the last few months, Trump biographer Michael Wolff and I have been spelunking through the minefield inside.

[Michael Wolff]

Can I change this?

[Joanna]

Yes.

[Michael Wolff]

Chronicler, Chronicler.

[Joanna]

Okay, Trump chronicler.

[Michael Wolff]

I'm not really a biographer.

[Joanna]

Okay. Over the last few months, Trump chronicler Michael Wolff and I have been spelunking through the minefield.

[Michael Wolff]

Do you want to say spelunking?

[Joanna]

I like spelunking. It's a technical cave term.

[Michael Wolff]

It's a show off word. Maybe it's a. Maybe it's a British word. But another reason you shouldn't use it. I would just go navigating.

[Joanna]

Over the last few months, Trump chronicler Michael Wolff and I haven't been spelunking through the minefield inside Donald Trump's head. We've been navigating it. And you've responded in Your thousands flooding us with comments, with questions, with theories, with conspiracy theories. So now it's official. Twice a week, we're going inside Donald Trump's head. Michael will be our unflinching guide as we map the darkness, the chaos, the electric jolts of ego and paranoia, and illuminate why Trump does what he does. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already on the Daily Beast feed, stay put. The episodes drop twice a week on Tuesdays and Thursday nights. And trust me, it's only going to get crazier. And also today, something I've been promising for a while, we're actually going to dive into your comments. We're going to read some, we're going to argue about some, and many of you have written in, asking what you think we think, or Michael specifically thinks about Trump's mental health. We're also going to discuss Jeffrey Epstein, his trip to Russia.

[Michael Wolff]

So somebody in the, in the White House told me that interest in Epstein was down 89%. They were pleased with that. Now, what that means, I have no idea. 89%. How did, like what, what.

[Joanna]

So much to get into? Where do we begin? The number two at the FBI, Dan Bongino, has had his job chopped in half and must now share it with Andrew Bailey, the AG from Missouri. That's a warning shot across the bows for from Pam Bondi. His boss, James Comer, chair of the Oversight Committee, has demanded DOJ files on Epstein and looks like receiving some of them on Friday, though nobody quite knows what files and what's going to be in them. And you can bet you're rapidly devaluing $. We'll be following that story, too. And then, of course, Putin, Putin, Putin. What does he have on Donald Trump? But most of all, we want to reassure you, the quest for peace in Europe may have succeeded in pushing Jeff Epstein off the front pages, but it hasn't pushed Jeffrey Epstein off our radar. Michael Wolff. What, Joanna, what is happening?

[Michael Wolff]

Michael, we went into this peace negotiation and we've come out of it in which everything is far worse than when we went into it.

[Joanna]

Okay, just. Yeah, keep going, keep going.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, you know, essentially what war in Ukraine has now come to be about is strategizing how to deal with this capricious and volatile asshole who has put himself right in the middle of it.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, that's what's going. Everybody. I don't think there's any other concern except how do we, how do we try to play Donald Trump? Who can be played? Everybody knows he can be played well.

[Joanna]

And he's being played by Putin.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. The problem. The problem is that he doesn't necessarily stay played for very long. So you have to play him. Then he's unplayed by somebody else, then you have to play him back again. But everybody is trying to triangulate Trump and where they end up. I mean, they've ended up in a clearly much more confused situation than when they went into this. I mean, Putin is more implacable than he has ever been because he sees. Well, I can. This Trump, you just say something to him and he, you know, falls down on his knees and thanks you and. And the Europeans. I mean, we've gotten to this place now where essentially Trump has. Trump has authorized Putin to take a big chunk of Ukraine, Possibly the Ukrainians would agree. They may not have any other alternative to agree to this, but there would be no way that they would agree to this unless they have. They have security guarantees. And. Which Trump said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Security guarantees, sure.

[Joanna]

With no idea clearly what they are, Right?

[Michael Wolff]

No idea. And the whole idea of security guarantees is pretty impossible to achieve. What does that mean? Are you going to put 10,000 soldiers, NATO soldiers, which Putin won't accept. US soldiers, which. Which Trump is never going to do because the United States would never accept. So what are those security guarantees with which it will be necessary to make a peace agreement? So, therefore, we are no further than when we began. And actually, I would say we're in a much lesser position than when this all began.

[Joanna]

Okay, so he's made things worse, and they're pretty bad as it is. And we're recording this on Tuesday morning. Overnight, there was severe Russian bombing of Ukraine. And as you said, Steve Witkoff came out mumbling about sort of Article 5 with, I think, not any sense of what it actually required. The MAGA base does not want American troops in Europe securing the front.

[Michael Wolff]

No, they just want us out. So, I mean, Trump is trying to, in his addled moments, you know, understanding that he has the MAGA requirements, he has the European requirements, and he has the Putin requirements. And weirdly, he is trying to in some way bow to them all.

[Joanna]

And he's got his own requirement, which is he wants a Nobel Peace Prize.

[Michael Wolff]

And then the Nobel Peace Prize, always the Nobel Peace Prize. But the more thing, the other requirement, the other thing that he has succeeded at, which he always seems to succeed at, is putting himself right at the center of this. It's now about Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

So much to ask you, not least about Donald Trump's. Health. But first of all, let's go back to Friday to the scene of the original crime, the meeting with Putin in Anchorage in Alaska, which, which Donald Trump seemed to think might be in Russia because twice last week he said, oh, I'm going to Russia to meet Putin. And then on the way, I just want to remind people on the way there, when he's talking to Brett Baer in Air Force One, he says, well, I'm a deal guy. If it doesn't work out, I'll come back to the United States. So goodness knows where he thinks he was.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, geography has always been a hurdle for Donald Trump.

[Joanna]

Well, I mean, not to know that Alaska is actually a state seems worrying when it's your job to be the president. However, I digress. What are you hearing from what happened on Friday?

[Michael Wolff]

I've had some interesting insights into this. And let me just frame my sourcing here because, I mean, I don't. You pick up in this, you can pick up details and perspectives of. Without obviously knowing what happened. So I am hearing not from the principals. It would be the principals, one of the principals talking to someone else who then is speaking to people who speak to me. So this is twice removed or so given that, except that context, as this is related to me, they went into the meeting and Trump started to talk and talk and talk and talk, blah, blah, blah.

[Joanna]

Okay, who's in the meeting? So it's Donald Trump. It's Vladimir Putin and there's an interpreter.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, it's Marco Rubio and Steve Witkoff. There are two people with Putin and then interpreters. So that's, that's the meeting. So Trump begins to talk, I mean, just launches in. Putin is impassive, this is described, just expressionless, impassive. Just letting him go on and he goes on.

[Joanna]

And what is he talking about? Is he doing his leave?

[Michael Wolff]

You know what? Yes. You have no idea what he's talking about. It's a combination of flattery. It's a combination of things that he's just pulled out of somewhere. Observations. Yeah, it's both inconsequential and incoherent. So at which point either Witkoff or Rubio interrupts him to actually try to lay out an agenda. He then proceeds to talk over them. So again, we're nowhere in this meeting. We're probably now, you know, 20 minutes in. Nothing is clear about what anyone is doing there, except that Putin is totally impassive.

[Joanna]

So he's just letting it play out.

[Michael Wolff]

No, and the interesting thing is to think about how the translator is translating what Donald Trump says. Imagine that.

[Joanna]

Right. Can you imagine that job?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, No, I can.

[Joanna]

They're probably worried it doesn't make sense, and they're like, oh, my goodness, am I translating this?

[Michael Wolff]

Completely. Completely. So then at one point, Putin does clear his throat to speak and he launches into a history lesson. Of course, Russia, you know, was this, you know, you know, these history, you know, you're back in the 17 century. And then he works his way up again, all to show why they should conquer Ukraine. Trump, not to be outdone, as this is related to me, goes into his own history lesson. And this is a history of the Cold War. And as this is described to me in Trump's history of the Cold War, it would appear that the US and USSR are on the same side.

[Joanna]

It's just unfathomable.

[Michael Wolff]

At some point, then Witkoff or Rubio bring up and interject with some purpose the ceasefire. At which point Putin says, no, no ceasefire. And Trump seems to accept this and seems to think, agree with this. Yes, yes, let's just move on to the peace. And then there is the ceasefire that.

[Joanna]

He'S agreed with the European leaders and with Zelenskyy that he is going to organize.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And then at some point, Putin begins to outline why they need this territory. And again, weaving back into the history of this and to all of the bad things that have been done against Russia. They're all about their security, the Russian people, all of this, you know, these fundamental wounds that Russia has carried that have to be rectified. And Trump seems to agree with this.

[Joanna]

It's beyond parody, it's beyond South Park. What can south park do with this?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, we'll see.

[Joanna]

Yeah, we will see. I'm sure we will see.

[Michael Wolff]

And this goes. And then with Witkoff and Rubio, I mean, basically helpless. I mean, they can't do. And they're. They sit there with their. Occasionally trying to interject, but you can't really interject because Trump just talks all the time. And this is then to actually, of course, to Putin's advantage, because rather than any discussion of the details, of the actual details of what might happen here, what territory, this, what are you going to give for that? What are the trade offs? I mean, that level of detail, Trump is not interested in, probably not capable of following the logical sequences that would be necessary there. And what's more, what is important to him is to keep talking, to keep. To have people listen to him. So it's put the problems aside. I just want to Keep talking.

[Joanna]

So very stressful for Marco Rubio and possibly stressful for Steve Witkoff, though we know he has zero training in diplomacy and he's a real estate.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, Witkoff I'm sure, is totallyi mean. He's bought into this. I know Donald Trump. I know what he is and you're not going to change the guy. So I've long ago accepted that.

[Joanna]

Okay, Michael, it's definitely time for some ads.

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[Joanna]

And we're back talking about what else? Donald Trump. But it's one thing to buy into him. It's another to buy into Vladimir Putin's version of history and Donald Trump's version of history that the USSR and the USA were on the same side.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, you know, I mean, I think one of the things that you, that you become used to when you're around Donald Trump and listening to Donald Trump is kind of turning it off. I mean, it doesn't have it is what it is. Does it have real meaning? Doesn't have real meaning. It's just what Trump needs to do.

[Joanna]

So to what extent is this getting worse? I mean, we've written a lot about Trump appearing to get more and more confused. We mentioned the fact that he thought he was going to Russia. He kept saying, oh, I'm going to come back to the US if it doesn't work out. At the meeting with the European leaders, he looked around the table for the Finnish leader who was literally sitting right opposite him. We could see him reading his notes, very basic notes that he was reading out loud in the way that Joe Biden used to get mocked.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that there' sit, there's. I mean, obviously the question comes up all the time. Is he losing a step? Has he lost a step? And my question would be, how can you tell? He has always been essentially like this. I mean, it is always running at a level of free association or incoherence or, you know, the scattershot nature of someone who just has to fill all the silences.

[Joanna]

But to what extent? But I think there is an element in which. Okay, all right, let me think about this. Okay, so let's think about it. In terms of the physical symptoms that he's displaying, there are some changes there. His hair has gone from that sort of weird golden color to a sort of almost a purple rinse. It's like a lavender color that sort of hovers above his head a bit like a bruise. And he's got cankles, which we wrote about in the Daily Beast on Sunday. And then when they issued the official photograph of Trump, when the White House issued it, with him sitting next to Zelensky and with the European leaders, they had strategically, I think, placed a model of Air Force One on the coffee table so you couldn't actually see his cankles, which were spilling over his oxfords.

[Michael Wolff]

No, I mean. And remember, he is almost 80 years old.

[Joanna]

Yeah. He's 79. We had a birthday parade for him. Remember the birthday parade?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna]

Well, yes and no.

[Michael Wolff]

Like, years ago. Yes. I mean, these are realities. I mean, he's an older man in a very demanding job. I mean, all of the challenges that Joe Biden faced, he faces. There's not a different one. You know, they're the same functionally, the same age, having to endure the same difficult schedules. I mean, of course, there's Donald Trump, who is, you know, a kind of a lazy guy. So when we. When we are literally not seeing him talking, he's, you know, taking it easy.

[Joanna]

Is he watching? I mean, I'm assuming he's either talking or he's watching television. And the reason I.

[Michael Wolff]

Or playing golf.

[Joanna]

I mean, he's playing golf or playing golf. And the. The only reason I mention the cankles is not to poke fun at swollen legs, which I'm sure are very painful, but it's indicative of circulation issues. It's actually a symptom of, you know, the body under strain, the heart.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, he can't make. The man weighs, you know, you know, almost £300. It's a. It's a. This is a. I mean, the amazing thing is that this hasn't taken its toll sooner.

[Joanna]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So. And clearly he still feels. Which Joe Biden certainly did not, full of energy. Even if it's energy that produces this constant incoherence, it is still. There's still a motor that's going there like crazy. So we don't know. And literally going back, it is very hard to tell this. I mean, if you saw in. Without knowing any background here, without ever seeing this before, if you then zoomed in on this guy, Donald Trump, in the way he talks and the way he walks, in the way his logic breaks down, you would say, oh, my God, this is an emergency.

[Joanna]

Well, it's an emergency for America and the world. I also noticed his neck has changed his whole head. Cause he's got this large head, as we can see from our. Of our portrait here. It's sort of come forward, the neck has gotten thicker, and he actually looks like he's shrunk. I mean, he's still towered above Putin.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, the way he sits there and his back is kind of rounded up in his head. Steve Bannon once described that to me as Trump sitting down. He looks. He says he looks like a giant shrimp.

[Joanna]

He does look like a giant. I have often thought he looked a dry shrimp. That's the perfect description.

[Michael Wolff]

Just again, you could always count on Steve Bannon.

[Joanna]

That's a very good. Yeah, Steve, great description.

[Michael Wolff]

And it comes back to this, and it's important. What does Putin have on Donald Trump? I mean, the strange thing about this, and it's been strange now for nearly 10 years, is he just folds in the face of Putin. Putineven when he set this up, and there seemed to be a clear change. I mean, and he was going toif he didn't get it, he was going to leave, and there would be consequences. I mean, he almost mounted this kind of. Ok, this is, you know, I can see it, I understand it. And, and, you know, we're going to deal with Vladimir Putin. Instead, he shows up, and Putin is his best friend.

[Joanna]

Again, I'm sorry, I can't get the image of the giant shrimp out of my head. A giant shrimp sitting there negotiating with all the leaders from Europe who've come over and been revoltingly sycophantic. My favorite moment was when Emmanuel Macron winks at Zelenskyy, and you can see they're all in on this, this tragic dance they perform for Trump. But let's go back to your point. What does Putin have on Donald Trump? And the thing that you mentioned at the end of our last Daily Beast podcast, which is that Jeffrey Epstein told you he had a secret trip at one point.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, yes. Epstein outlined to me, he actually did not really tell me what he said to Putin, but he outlined the. The ways he had to get the secret ways he had to go to get to Moscow to accomplish this secret.

[Joanna]

Well, what were they? Did you believe him when he told you this?

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna, I think it may be time for some ads.

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[Michael Wolff]

We'Re back because.

[Joanna]

It'S quite a claim that you've been to see the president of Russia.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, you know, the jury is out on that. I mean, because it is quite a claim. So did he really do this? You know, I mean, well, I must say Epstein, in the kinds of things that Epstein has told me, they have largelythey have largely proven to be true. So I have no reason to doubt this except that it's a kind of a monumental claim. And I admit I didn't exactly pursue this. I should have said what did you talk? Tell me? You know, and his glossi mean he went to talk to Putin, according to Epstein, having to do with money.

[Joanna]

And when did he go?

[Michael Wolff]

This was during the first administration. So it would probably, it would have been in 2017, so the first year of the first Trump White House. But the Interest. So he was there to talk to Putin about money, about putting Putin's personal money, I assume, of which he has a lot. Yes, of which he has a lot. And I think it's a complicated situation which would probably benefit from Jeffrey Epstein's skills, because a significant amount of this money, of Putin money is dubious and probably outside of the traditional banking system.

[Joanna]

Okay. And outside of Russia, I was going to say.

[Michael Wolff]

But it is worth wondering what Jeffrey Epstein said to Vladimir Putin about Donald Trump. And the one thing about Jeffrey Epstein, I mean, the whole discussion about whether he was an intelligence agent, in my experience, he was more of a great gossip than he was an intelligence agent. He certainly didn't. He didn't seem to keep. He didn't seem to keep secrets. He seemed to share them widely. So I'm sure if Putin was interested in Donald Trump, as I assume he was keenly interested, Jeffrey Epstein would have been able to supply him with very interesting information.

[Joanna]

Oh, we can't ask him. We can't ask him more. I can't believe you didn't press him on it more.

[Michael Wolff]

In hindsight, I can't believe it either.

[Joanna]

Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So not only did he traffic.

[Michael Wolff]

One of the things about the life of a journalist is that you spend a lot of time regretting the questions you did not ask.

[Joanna]

Yes. So I'm trying to imagine Jeffrey Epstein and Vladimir Putin. First of all, what did Epstein say about how he got there?

[Michael Wolff]

There was a series of. I mean, he took his plane to Stockholm, as I remember, but I have to check this. And then there were two other flights. He had to give up his. Leave his plane and take other planes so that he would not, I assume, Russian planes, that he would.

[Joanna]

His flight tracker wouldn't have. Exactly, exactly. And did you get the sense that he'd suggested the visit or he'd been called to Moscow?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I had the sense that he had been called, but it would be very like Epstein to have worked the background channels so that he was called.

[Joanna]

And what do you think Putin told Epstein?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, it's my impression that Putin plays things close to his vest. So I don't know. But Epstein does not play things close to his vest. I mean, he's a, you know, I mean, he's trading. I mean, part of what Epstein did was trade information. And that's kind of, I think, why this whole idea of Epstein as an intelligence agent has gotten currency. But again, in my experience, he was. He was always trying to learn things and then always trading that information to anybody, anybody who could give him an advantage. So I guess that is kind of an intelligence agent, but also, as I say, as an international gossip. There's another thing which I think is important in this, in this, what does Putin have on Trump? And everybody has speculated that. I've spent a lot of time with Steve Bannon speculating on what that might be. But having given this some thought, I think the more interesting thing is that Donald Trump doesn't know what Putin has on him, but suspects that he probably does A because there's so much to have on Donald Trump and also because Donald Trump has spent so long in kind of international money begging circles and Putin, who has so much money and so much money in so many different aspects of where money is that they were bound tothey were bound to to intersect at so many points, and Putin was bound to hear about what Trump was doing and what Trump wanted. So Trump is in the position now of thinking, well, the guy probably does know things about, you know, things that I would rather not be known.

[Joanna]

So is it possible that Putin has either invested in a Trump business or he's invested in a Trump super pac? I mean, via nefarious ways.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's all possible, but it doesn't even have to be that clear. And if you're Putin, I would play it that way. It's better that Donald Trump doesn't know what he has than that Donald Trump knows what he has. So instead of Putin getting into the Beast and saying to Trump, if you don't give me this much of Ukraine, then I'm going to reveal the. Whatever. It's, it's much better to play this without showing your hand. Just for Trump to know that Putin probably knows, but not sure exactly what it is that he knows, but it could be serious.

[Joanna]

And also, all Trump does is talk and all Putin does is sit quietly with a slight smile on his face, which for Donald Trump must be incredibly unnerving.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I don't, I don't.

[Joanna]

Or maybe doesn't even notice it.

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. He just doesn't notice. He just, you know, he just talks into a vacuum and he doesn't talk to any one person, even if it's Vladimir Putin, it's interchangeable. He could speak to, you know, he could speak to Putin in the back seat of the Beast, but he could be speaking to the driver, too.

[Joanna]

Ok, so do you have any idea or have your sources speculated as to what the conversation was between Putin and Trump in the back of the Beast?

[Michael Wolff]

No, don't know. And I Suspect. It was not a conversation. He got in. I mean, I can play this. I've seen this. He got in and Trump just started to go.

[Joanna]

And he was probably describing the inside of the car, Right. He was probably giving off all sorts of, you know, secrets. And Putin probably had some sort of tech gadget that was measuring the car and, you know, blunting the signal or whatever. Very interesting. All right, now we're getting to some comments. I feel like we've addressed some of the comments about mental health. One person, Drea B3322. Didn't Bill Barr's father hire Epstein? Yes, Donald Barr, Right?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. At the Dalton School. Donald Barr was the headmaster when. When Jeffrey Epstein was hired in, I believe, 1972 or three. Yes.

[Joanna]

Okay, good question. Very good question. So. Okay, I'm not going to do that one. Okay. So K13ish asks, how does the US recover from the stain of Trumpism? Will we ever.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I know. I mean, I don't. I mean, I mean, yes and no. I mean, yes, I think that we will recover. I think it will. We will. The history will turn, but it's there. It's like McCarthyism. It's like the war in Vietnam. It's like, you know, this is not going to be. I think that this is going to be remembered as a period that has a significant transformative effect on this country.

[Joanna]

Okay, final question. Love this. What does Melania know? And that's from LLN 1957. LLN 1957. Good question.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I think she knows an enormous amount.

[Joanna]

Okay. And here's a good question. This is from Rowan Dowland, I think is how it's pronounced. 1391. Is there a single public record of Trump expressing sympathy for Epstein's victims? Just one. The media should ask Trump why.

[Michael Wolff]

Not that I'm familiar with.

[Joanna]

Okay, Michael, that was. There's so much in there. Who knows what Putin has on Donald Trump. Epstein went there, we think, to help Putin with his money. Okay, mind blown. I think we should come back on Thursday and talk specifically about. Why does Donald Trump talk so much? We had John Bolton on the Daily Beast podcast on Monday. He also observed the same thing everywhere.

[Michael Wolff]

You cannot spend a moment with Donald Trump without that being the primary takeaway. He doesn't ever, ever, ever shut up.

[Joanna]

Share this podcast with your friends inside Trump's head. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and if you're already a subscriber to the Daily Beast podcast, this will surface in your feed on YouTube. And don't forget as our first lady would always have us be bebeast. And thank you to our producers, Devon Rogerino our assistant producer Researcher Logistics Manager Anna Von Erson our editor Jesse Millwood.

[Michael Wolff]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Joanna]

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[Michael Wolff]

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