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- [00:02]
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- [00:30]
Michael
This could not be a worse situation and a more. More of a. Of a malfunction of a situation than we have seen in a very long time. This is a window on exactly. Exactly who he is and on his serious limitations as a president and as an intelligence. There was no goal. It was like, we have a lot of. We're stronger than they are, so we'll be able to come out of this looking better than they do. We'll win. How could we not win? There was never a definition for him of winning. Except winning. Winning.
- [01:22]
Joanna
Michael.
- [01:23]
Michael
Joanna, you're back. Where were you?
- [01:27]
Joanna
I was in Montana. I was in Montana. I was breathing in some Yellowstone air. Inspired by Taylor Sheridan's shows. I'm big into his new show, Madison. Actually, partly. Well, entirely because of Michelle Pfeiffer. Thank goodness he's brought her back. I don't like his portrayal of female characters.
- [01:48]
Michael
Well, I love. So you like this. Everything I've read about this Madison and makes it sound terrible, so I have.
- [01:55]
Joanna
All you have to do is watch Michelle Pfeiffer. The question is, it's not about the show. It's about, do you like Michelle Fife or not? Because if you do, you just. It's like watching an Instagram video of her. It's just fantastic. It's all about her hair, her sunglasses, her coat.
- [02:11]
Michael
So I take this that you like Michelle Pfeiffer.
- [02:13]
Joanna
I love Michelle Pfeiffer. I'm so grateful he's bought her back from. Where was she?
- [02:18]
Michael
How do you even remember Michelle Pfeiffer?
- [02:21]
Joanna
Yeah. Casino.
- [02:24]
Michael
Yeah. A long. What are we, the 80s?
- [02:27]
Joanna
Maybe. Maybe. Anyway, she's back, and I'm thrilled. And the show itself, it's like all his shows. It's kind of cartoony, but beautiful countryside.
- [02:39]
Michael
He's the only guy working in television
- [02:41]
Joanna
and he's not doing the familiar LA or New York tropes. It's something fresh. Anyway, that's not why I won't.
- [02:52]
Michael
I think those are called Trump tropes.
- [02:54]
Joanna
Trump tropes. Okay, they may be called Trump tropes, but I'm back. I'm excited to talk to You. I missed the whole Sharpie thing. When we were talking before the podcast, I suggested we did the Sharpie thing and you were like, you are so out of touch. That's been everywhere.
- [03:08]
Michael
We're not doing that everywhere.
- [03:09]
Joanna
We're not doing that. So, Michael, are you going on a no Kings protest?
- [03:16]
Michael
Yeah. The children are looking forward to it. Yes.
- [03:19]
Joanna
Where are you?
- [03:19]
Michael
We will be there. East Hampton.
- [03:21]
Joanna
East Hampton. I was once in the East Hampton Book Hampton store on Main street when a ton of trucks came through waving flags and they were all Trumpers and they were all hooting and it was oddly ominous, actually. I've always thought, oh, I wouldn't be impacted by something like that. And it was oddly sinister before the election.
- [03:45]
Michael
Yeah. The Hamptons, which you would think is a Trump free zone. That is not actually true. And Long island is quite a Trump enclave.
- [03:58]
Joanna
Oh, I think there were lots of Trump fundraiser. Lots of Trump fundraisers in Southampton.
- [04:03]
Michael
Well, the billionaires are not on their trucks with their Trump flags, Chris. That's another segment, another demo.
- [04:15]
Joanna
Well, we should do that. The billionaires for Trump, actually. But I know you've got things to say. I know you've got things to say. Not least that why are we paying any attention to what Trump's saying? Because we can't avoid it. But he just makes no sense whatsoever. It's one thing after another. None of which holds together.
- [04:37]
Michael
Yeah, I mean, I think it's been an interesting Trump character couple of days. I mean, I mean, I mean, the Sharpies are a point. Because that was like, oh, my God. You know, there was this moment, this week on this voting. So, I mean, I mean, Trump has been adamantly, of course, against mail in votings about. Against mail in voting. And without concern, he mailed in his vote to Palm beach and he was followed by his wife, also mailed in and his son who mailed in their votes. And obviously people said, wait a minute. And effectively his response was. And let me not overstate this, but I think the response was, I can do fuck all that I want. And really, let's just kind of clear the debris here. That is what he said. That is the rationale. I'm the President of the United States. I can do this. And the fact that I am opposed to this for everyone else and has no bearing on what I do now, how that has not become. How the country does not respond to that and say, holy cow, wait a minute, this is really not how it is supposed to be on no Kings Day, let's add. But he is transparent about what he is doing here. This is what you're buying America, the world. This is what it is. I can do what I do. I can do fuck all, because I can.
- [06:34]
Joanna
Well, and also, it's the sort of hypocrisy in the olden days. I don't even know when the olden days were that would have appalled people. And now do you think it's just that people are saturated by this?
- [06:46]
Michael
Actually, the interesting thing is there is no hypocrisy here. This is not. I mean, he is not saying. He's not inventing a rationale here. I mean, he is saying I can do anything I want to do. Of course. Why would you think otherwise?
- [07:04]
Joanna
Well, that's hypocritical. And it's one law for you and it's another law for me. But the bigger question is, why don't people care? And is it because they just assume this is baked in with Donald Trump and ultimately he might be good for taxes or he might be better for them, and they just put up with the kind of nonsense and the noise. Is that what's going on here?
- [07:32]
Michael
Yeah, I suppose it is. But even within that context, I think you have to ask. And actually, part of the answer to that is that he has disastrously low polling numbers. So it is not. I mean, the country does recognize this and say, holy cow. I mean, what is going on here? I mean, this is. Is we're in this exceptional moment and we have to make a decision about it. But this was also. No, go ahead.
- [08:04]
Joanna
No, I was also just going to say that I do think with the war in particular, he seems to have lost his messaging ability.
- [08:16]
Michael
Well, let's not go. Don't go to the war. Exactly. Because I think that there was this other example which actually goes. Goes. Is more. More thematically
- [08:28]
Joanna
adjacent.
- [08:29]
Michael
Yeah. Thematically matches the. I can vote where I can do any kind of voting. And then. And this was, I'm gonna sign the dollar. I'm gonna sign the dollar. I mean, I. I am going to put my name on the dollar. So.
- [08:47]
Joanna
Which is the first time an American president has done that, to be clear, for those who don't follow the patterns on the dollar bills.
- [08:58]
Michael
And again, why are you doing that? Why are you doing that? There's only one reason he is doing that. Because he can.
- [09:05]
Joanna
Well. And because he wants dominance over all things. And I know you just clearly said, don't go to the war. I'm going to go to the war. In terms of. What did he say yesterday at the. The Investor conference he was speaking at. Well, you know, the Strait of Trump. I mean, hormones.
- [09:22]
Michael
No. Yes.
- [09:23]
Joanna
Or I mean just the naming, which we've discussed ad nauseam on this podcast. But the idea that he would then name the Strait of Hormuz, a wonderful name that we've all just got our heads around to. The Strait of Trump or the Strait of America.
- [09:40]
Donald Trump
We're negotiating now and be great if we could do something. But they have to open it up. They have to open up the Strait of Trump. I mean, harmless. Excuse me, I'm so sorry. Such a terrible mistake. The fake news will say he accidentally said, no, there's no accidents with me. Not too many. If there were, we'd have a major story.
- [10:08]
Michael
Well, I'm going to, though I am going to suggest that there is irony there, that he was, that was a moment and they do occur of Trump self awareness. I put my name on everything, so I will suggest that I'm going to put my name on this. So that was Trump at his. Actually at his best. When you are with Trump quite often he will hit a note like that and you will think, okay, he gets it. He gets who he is and he is playing it. So I would say that was an example of that.
- [10:55]
Joanna
All right, that was a generous interpretation.
- [10:57]
Michael
But he goes, you think that he does this and then he forgets that, that this is irony. Irony then becomes practice with him.
- [11:08]
Joanna
Okay, so what's going on inside his head this week? The Save America bill has not passed. He's been voting in the mail, as has his entire family. Something he says he's against. And we're in week five of the war. It's week five today.
- [11:28]
Michael
Those are probably different things. I mean, I think he didn't vote in, he voted by mail. I actually think probably because he's lazy. I mean, he's saying, I don't want to go on, I could do this, but it's so much easier to do this by mail. So fuck all. Forget the fact that I am waging a campaign against this because in the end, and this is a Trump thing, he is lazy. He doesn't really care. He doesn't have a lot of follow through. And if it's better for him, he's gonna take the easy way out almost always. So I think that was just an example of that. Yeah, I'm gonna catch flack for this, but I don't care.
- [12:12]
Joanna
And do you think he cares about the fact that a Democrat, a young woman called Emily Gregory, won the seat that Mar A Lago is in despite the fact that Trump endorsed her opponent.
- [12:23]
Michael
Nah, I don't think he cares that much. I mean, I don't think he cares about a lot. He cares about himself. Are you paying attention to me? And even that woman who won that seat, you know, if he's in, if that story becomes about him, which it has become about him, he's fine with it.
- [12:47]
Joanna
He's fine with it. Okay, so the war is also about him. Although it's five weeks since America first started its bombing raids with Israel. What is going on inside his head about the war?
- [13:02]
Michael
Well, I think he's desperate about this. I think he does not know what to do. So it's a moment by moment thing of, well, let's try this. We better do that. Why didn't somebody tell me about something that they no doubt did tell him about? I think it's improvisational at the maximum, but I don't really think, I think improvisation is a nice way to think about this. I think he's out of control. I think that there is no one in charge here. I think this could not be a worse situation and a more, more of a, of a malfunction of a situation than, than, than we have seen in a very long time at a high level of government and of and of policy. I mean, I mean, I think it's a, I think it is extraordinary. I think that this is a window on exactly, exactly who he is and on his serious limitations as a president and as an intelligence.
- [14:25]
Joanna
Well, I still think the confusing thing is we don't know what the goal was. Was the goal, regime change was the goal to stymie oil to China.
- [14:35]
Michael
I disagree. That is clear. What we know is that there was no goal. The goal was haphazard. There was no goal. It was like we have a lot of. We're stronger than they are, so we'll be able to come out of this looking better than they do. We'll win. How could we not win? And winning. There was never a definition for him of winning, except winning. Winning.
- [15:06]
Joanna
Okay, so I have a slightly different point of view based on, on a conversation I was eavesdropping with someone who talks to Trump every day or has been talking to Trump every day since the war began. And this person was saying that, in fact, of course there's a plan. It's ridiculous to think there wasn't a plan. There's a six week plan. We're.
- [15:29]
Michael
Now, since you don't, since you were eavesdropping, you owe nothing to this person. Can you say who it is.
- [15:37]
Joanna
I can't say who it is because that person that might actually compromise them. But he said, of course there's a plan. Trump is sticking to the plan. No one expects. The plan has been there for some time. The Israeli intelligence is the thing that allowed them to suddenly go for it because they realized that they could decapitate the Iranian leadership. That Trump has, in fact stuck to the plan, even though it doesn't look like he has, but he actually has. They're way ahead in terms of.
- [16:11]
Michael
We're all waiting to hear the plan.
- [16:13]
Joanna
Well, the plan was to decapitate the leadership and have regime change. And the regime change is the bit that hasn't yet happened. And no one knows if the Iranians are going to protest.
- [16:26]
Michael
This is ridiculous. Let's look at this plan. The plan did not account for the fact that 20% of the world's oil would be effectively embargoed. The plan then did not account for the fact that even if you kill the top level of leadership, the regime itself stays in place. The plan did not then apparently account for the fact that this nuclear material remains out of reach and will require boots on the ground to get it. So let me see a plan there. What is the plan? To kill the guy. Yes, we killed the guy. But that in itself has accomplished nothing except a dead guy.
- [17:19]
Joanna
Okay. I think the plan was to remove the leadership and now we have a negotiation window. Right. Which is supposed to start this week, where the. The Americans.
- [17:29]
Michael
No, no, no, no. Actually, that was not the plan. Unless he's unable to remember the plan and to keep on message. So we were. Unconditional surrender. That unconditional surrender is exactly the opposite of negotiation.
- [17:44]
Joanna
Well, what we do know is Donald Trump talks too much and he says whatever is in his head in the moment. That doesn't mean we're not still on plans. So basically what's happened is this is what was being argued. This is what's being argued.
- [17:57]
Michael
You overheard somebody who's on board with Donald Trump who obviously has a need to support this. And there are lots of people. Remember, the neocon group feels they are getting what they have always wanted, except everything's going wrong. But other than that, they have wanted to a full scale mighty invasion of Iran, which they have gotten.
- [18:32]
Joanna
Okay, that's not who I was talking to. I was talking to someone who, by nature of what they do, actually remains neutral, but is involved in it for all sorts of reasons. And.
- [18:43]
Michael
But you were eavesdropping. Not talking.
- [18:46]
Joanna
I was kind of eavesdropping.
- [18:48]
Michael
I'm just clarifying.
- [18:49]
Joanna
I'm trying to be subtle here. I was kind of eavesdropping. And we've largely demolished the military in Iran. What we want back is the enriched uranium. And there's now a window for negotiation, which was part of the plan in as much as there is any plan, once you start bombing a country. And clearly no one understands what's going on with the leadership. And if anyone tells you they do, then that's not true. They don't. Clearly nobody knows what's going on with the leadership, and it's unclear that the Trump. So let me just finish. It's unclear who the Trump people, that is, Jared and Steve Witkoff are actually negotiating with at this point.
- [19:36]
Michael
But you just said there was a window of negotiation.
- [19:39]
Joanna
There's a window for negotiation, which we know Trump has extended to April 6th.
- [19:45]
Michael
Right, but we don't know who to negotiate with. This is a hell of a window.
- [19:50]
Joanna
But we also. Right, but they must be supplying someone to negotiate with. We just don't know who it is.
- [19:57]
Michael
The pronoun is the problem there. They are supplying someone. Who is they?
- [20:03]
Joanna
And, well, the irg, the, the current leadership.
- [20:06]
Michael
Yeah, but we don't know. Except we don't know who that is.
- [20:11]
Joanna
That's. That's the unknown unknowns. That's part of the unknown unknowns of war, isn't that it?
- [20:19]
Michael
So there was a paragraph in the Times story, I think, yesterday, that jumble of emissaries, a friend, a family member, a dove and a hawk, reflects Mr. Trump's improvisational approach to foreign dealings and his disdain for career diplomats and their often cumbersome protocols. The picture is further muddied by Mr. Trump's stream of consciousness commentary on social media and for the TV cameras, during which he declares, revises, and sometimes reverses his threats and demands. Okay, that paragraph that is trying to create a kind of reasonable, even within an unreasonable situation, a reasonable context for understanding this. He is doing things in a different way than other people would do it doing, or other presidents would do them. And this is confusing to people, but nevertheless, it's an approach. I mean, it's essentially not that different. Sounds like from what the person you were sitting next to was saying, But I think that there's another way. You take these same facts in the same description and you say, oh, oh, my God. This, this person does not know which end is up. This person is. Is wholly incapable of doing what he has to do in the situation that he is in. This person is. Has completely lost the plot. And we are in deep, deep shit, right?
- [22:12]
Joanna
Clearly.
- [22:13]
Michael
And let me hit the, and let me hit the New York Times again, as I so like to do, is that they just, they just don't have the language. They have to. It's like, like forcing the square peg into a round hole. You know, Although we see this very clearly and can define this and describe this, yet we still have to come up with a paragraph in which we are not saying, holy mackerel, this is the end.
- [22:46]
Joanna
The end of what?
- [22:49]
Michael
The end of logic, reason and of sense and sensibility and of any advantage that we might possibly have been able to come out of this with over. We're done, we're cooked.
- [23:08]
Joanna
I mean, the problem is that because Afghanistan and because Iraq went south so badly, there is a perfectly logical school of thought of well, we had all these diplomats and they had a plan and it all went wrong, so why shouldn't we just have Trump go in and bomb the shit out of Iran? There's definitely a school of thought around that. And it's hard to argue that the Iraq war was a good decision from the American point of view.
- [23:34]
Michael
It's not exactly a school of thought from a, a prestige school of thought.
- [23:40]
Joanna
No, but there are plenty of arguments to try a different way of bringing a country like Iran.
- [23:48]
Michael
No, there are not. There are not plenty of arguments. That is really ridiculous. I mean all of those arguments have been made, you know, I mean, I think you can say for the last 50 years and they don't work. They are effectively World War II arguments. I mean they are, they are something that doesn't. That in situations in which you are. It is not principally about one army defeating another, then this whole strategy and this whole plan doesn't work. And whatever happens you end up creating infinitely more problems.
- [24:33]
Joanna
Well, the point I was trying to make was that if you send in two business guys are who, who sell their skills as we're deal makers, right? And we're gonna go in and we're making a deal and we don't care about what diplomats did in the past. We don't wanna know the history of the country. We're gonna go in and make deals. The assumption is that the Iranians also want to make deals and also make deals in the same way that Khushkov, as we've nicknamed Steve and Jared, want to make deals. And what's obviously clear is there is no meeting the Iranians.
- [25:06]
Michael
The Iranians in 50 years have shown that the one thing they don't want to do is make deals.
- [25:11]
Joanna
Yeah, Exactly. Well, that's my point. That's the simple point I'm trying to make, that there is enormous dismissal of the experts and the people that understood the culture and the history and why Iran is like it is. So Trump is trying to do something different, arguably a good thing to do, where the problem is, he's Trump, and you send in two business guys to do a deal in a country where they don't do business like anybody else does, does business.
- [25:37]
Michael
And that's the problem. I've lost track of the side that you're on at this point.
- [25:41]
Joanna
I'm not really on anybody's side. I'm trying to understand it. If I were a golf.
- [25:45]
Michael
The argument that you're making, that's what I've lost here.
- [25:49]
Joanna
Well, I think the argument I'm trying to make is I'm not quite sure how this gets resolved.
- [25:56]
Michael
Yeah, that. That's the problem. That is the problem. I mean, you're not supposed to go into this situation unless you have a pretty good idea and how you can get out of it.
- [26:08]
Joanna
Well, what do you think? What do you think he thinks?
- [26:13]
Michael
I think that he is going to happen. Literally doesn't know. I think from the beginning, he thought, well, okay, fine, you know, we're going to bomb and I can declare victory. And then that became more and more and more difficult, and he may. He may just decide, I'm going to do that at any point, of course. But he will have achieved. To date, he will have achieved nothing. And so that will cost him. And any situation is, now I stay in, and that's gonna cost me. I get out, and that's gonna cost me. So what do I do? Answer, I don't know. But it's Donald Trump, so he doesn't really even have the capacity to say, I don't know.
- [26:58]
Joanna
All right, so what do the people around him do? Because now we're hearing that no one wants to negotiate with Khrushchkov anymore and that they want J.D. vance and they might want Marco Rubio. So then what happens? Because we know that J.D. vance didn't think any of this was a good idea. So this is good for him in one way, for his political capital. This is a good thing for J.D.
- [27:21]
Michael
yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm not even sure that that is true. I think the idea of who we're hearing are the players is partly an effort to pass the blame around. Nobody wants to. Nobody wants to take responsibility for this. And it's Trump pushing people in front of him. Who is, you know, these become his shields. And then I think that there is probably a reasonable amount among these people of desperation for themselves. We gotta figure this out. We can't let Trump do this because that's a catastrophe. So somebody else has to step up here and try to bring some acumen and some reason to this situation.
- [28:15]
Joanna
Well, he's extended the window for potential negotiation. We don't know with whom. Through April 6th. Right. Having said there was no room for negotiation. It was 48 hours. They wanted unconditional surrender.
- [28:28]
Michael
There's also an issue of his leverage there. You know, I mean, he went into this saying, if you do not negotiate, we're going to wipe out your infrastructure, which is. I mean, which is in a major precedent, probably a terrible precedent, which is being opposed by everybody else in the Middle east, including the Israelis. So he set up. This is a strawman. He set up leverage which he can't use.
- [28:59]
Joanna
Right, but he does that all the time. He just says anything. I mean, if only he would just shut up. I mean, you have talked before him. In fact, we did an entire special on the fact that Donald Trump will not stop talking. He can't stop talking. It's also what audiences want. They want to go and hear him talk for the most part. His rallies, he can talk for 90 minutes, two hours, just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. It becomes. It's less of an issue during a campaign rally. It's more of an issue when he's talking about war. And if you're one of the Gulf states, neighboring Iran, and you're trying to glean any kind of logic from what he's saying, you're not going to get very far.
- [29:43]
Michael
But still the price of oil goes up. So there are. I mean. I mean, usually or often he can talk, and it doesn't really mean anything. I mean, he produces a headline, and that is the reality. But now the reality is the price of oil.
- [30:00]
Joanna
Well, and also, whether or not, if you're in China, you can get as much oil as you need. I mean, it's good for Russia, Right, because they're suddenly pumping out more oil, but they can't. I mean, there's a whole theory going on that this is all done to squeeze China, that they've stopped Venezuela's oil, they're trying to control oil coming out of Iran. Russia can't produce enough oil for China. This is a backhanded way of getting at China.
- [30:28]
Michael
Well, it gets at us, too, because oil is set on a global basis. I mean, so that is also a completely ridiculous thing and will defeat Donald Trump. So the logic here is, oh, I'm gonna do this and it will solve that problem, but I'm going to go down in flames because of it. So it makes no sense. I mean, the price of oil now at $1.10 or going to $1.20 or going to 110, going 120, going to. We don't know a barrel is unsustainable here. It's just unsustainable from a political standpoint. I mean, the politics of this is, is staring even for Donald Trump. He can't ignore that.
- [31:23]
Joanna
And it's possible that Trump sort of doesn't care anymore. He's almost in a kind of spiral. You think that's possible? He's in a sort of death spiral or he's just lurching moment to moment as normal?
- [31:36]
Michael
Yeah, I don't, I mean, I suspect he's looking. How do you play this in a Donald Trump way? Who's gonna be my enemy? And I think he's probably starting already to conceive of this as he conceives of the next season's show. He's going to lose the midterms in a really substantial way. So he's now setting up, I mean, you can only read the Save America act, which is not going to pass as a, as a way to set the stage for blaming this on voter fraud, which has worked for him in the past. And he always returns to what has worked for him in the past. So I think that that's what he's now. In his mind, the narrative is being reshaped and he'll reshape the narrative to his best advantage.
- [32:36]
Joanna
Well, what do you mean it worked for him in the past?
- [32:39]
Michael
That became a fulcrum of his, of his 2024 campaign. I mean, in, in a way that, that was the through line of his campaign. They stole the election from me.
- [32:54]
Joanna
But, but, but, but the, I don't agree with that at all. I agree that he was using it as a theme, but they lost the Dem. He won the election during that catastrophic debate when Biden didn't appear to be sentient. And then there was, then it took the Democrats a month.
- [33:16]
Michael
I totally disagree with that. For one thing, there are two parts of the campaign. There's the primary campaign where he wiped out every other Republican.
- [33:27]
Joanna
Well, it was largely Ron DeSantis. Right. Who's thoroughly unpleasant, unfortunately.
- [33:33]
Michael
Well, it doesn't matter. I mean, it was Ron DeSantis. I mean, there was a serious. It doesn't matter. Nobody else was willing to run against him, against Ron DeSantis, except Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley and a few other whose names are forgotten to history at this point. And partly they, they, they did not run against him because he had set up this election thing as the thing. All Republicans had to agree with him. They all had to bow down to that. There was no Republican who was saying, hey, wait a minute, this is a total fraud. He didn't win. Quite the opposite. They were all forced to make a ritual bow to that which set him up as essentially the de facto candidate. He had to be the candidate because they stole the election from him.
- [34:25]
Joanna
Right. But in the general election, the reason he won is not because the people who came out to vote for him thought that he should have won in 2020. They came out because the Democrats had a series of missteps from the catastrophic debate. It took them too long. It took Biden too long to step aside. They didn't have an open primary. Biden anointed someone and she couldn't get the momentum she needed.
- [34:53]
Michael
This is not true. You know, yes, the Democrats were, were weak, but Trump remained strong and remained competitive, really, from the get go of this campaign. Could the Democrats have won if they had handled the Biden thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. There's always more than one factor here. But certainly his claim of the 2020 thing, the consistency of that theme, his willing to stand up to that even no matter how wrongheaded it was, and then to stand up to the trials that the Democrats, to the extent that the government and mostly the Democrats put him on trial, created that thing that was Donald Trump. He certainly wasn't running away from the, that 2020 election denial gibberish.
- [35:55]
Joanna
Well, I agree. It's total gibberish. I would just argue that the trials that people remembered were the Stormy Daniels trial and the E. Jean Carroll trial. And it turns out people don't think that's disqualifying to be a candidate or to be a president. And I just think it was about prices, Michael.
- [36:12]
Michael
All those trials ran together well. Anyway, it doesn't matter. That is, he has certainly, he has certainly always gone back to the, to the 2020 defeat. He consistently brings this up. It is something that he believes has consistently worked for him. He worked for him because he believes it. He is an aggrieved person. He got the presidency back because it was stolen from him. That's the Trump narrative and that's the narrative he will return to. They're stealing the election from me and the Midterms are just, you know, just them once again doing the same thing.
- [36:53]
Joanna
Okay, before we started this podcast, you disappeared to get another cup of coffee. And I think you've had seven espressos this morning. You are completely on fire.
- [37:05]
Michael
That's just because I'm wiping the floor with you. You haven't thought of this, thought any of this through. But it's not. It's not my coffee. It's your logic.
- [37:14]
Joanna
Okay, I agree that to him, this is an important thing, and maybe he believes it, maybe he doesn't believe it, that he actually lost the 2020 election. I don't think it's a factor for why people voted for him in 2024. But I do understand that he's anxious he's going to lose the midterms, and he's sowing the ground to do all sorts of things around doubt over the election process, which is as damaging as anything you can do. And maybe he uses it as a moment to bring ice into the polling stations. Who knows? I mean, I get that he's doing it. I just don't think that the public buys it. I don't think that's why they voted for him, because they thought he lost the 2020 election and that he's rightfully the president.
- [38:02]
Michael
Well, the public is not going to buy because they're going to actually vote against him in the midterms, but the public becomes enthralled by his. Or wrapped up into his narrative, because he's very good at this, because he repeats it constantly, because he appears to believe it, because it's something that sustains him. So, again, it's just that this is what's on his mind. What's in his mind is I have this situation, a bad situation. I have this war. I have this. I have the fact that I'm going to lose these midterms. What do I do? Trump is not someone who responds to political exigencies by revising his policies. And with a political logic, he responds with a narrative logic. What's the story I can tell about this? What's the story I can tell about this that justifies me, that positions me against someone who will be my enemy and that person who, ideally, will be unpopular, I can make them unpopular. So therefore, I share an unpopular enemy with whoever I'm telling the story to? I mean, that's how Trump operates here. So in terms of what he's thinking about, in terms of these problems, that's how he'll respond. He will not respond with, we need a new war. Strategy. We need a new electoral strategy. Well, he'll respond with a new story.
- [39:50]
Joanna
Right, Right. Just a new plot line. Found something funny. Send it instantly. TikTok makes sharing with friends effortless. One tap. Whole group laughing moments move fast. Download TikTok now. So one of the things that clearly people are going to feel very strongly about, I think by the time we get to the midterms is what's happening with the health department with rfk. You've said that he's already being pushed into the background. We know that people want vaccines for their children. We know that people think he's. That RFK Jr. Turns out not to have been a great hire in that role. No.
- [40:33]
Michael
And I know that he's been calling around and saying. And saying to people, you know, I hear people say, Bobby is crazy. You think he's crazy?
- [40:43]
Joanna
Trump is. Trump is calling around and saying. I thought you meant Bobby was calling around saying, I hear Bobby's crazy. Am I crazy?
- [40:50]
Michael
Yeah, that would be. No, Trump is saying that. Do you think he's crazy? You think Bobby's crazy? So that is always that sign those calls when you can track those calls. And he asks the question that he. That and you know the answer he wants. Yeah, yeah. No, I hear he's a little crazy. Yeah, he seems a little crazy. This vax stuff, he really goes too far. He goes too far. But then I have a more. A more interesting tell on this. He's then been saying positive things about this kid running for the seat in New York, Schlossberg.
- [41:36]
Joanna
Donald Trump has. So Donald Trump is recommending or saying positive things about the nephew of RFK Jr. Who was on the side of his family, who came out and attacked RFK Jr. And said, this is a terrible idea.
- [41:52]
Michael
Exactly. So he's been saying, you know, so. So his. This, the kid who's running, he can't quite get the name Schlossberg. The kid who's running for. For New York, he says his uncle is crazy. It's not his uncle. It's his mother's cousin, but this is his mother's cousin.
- [42:17]
Joanna
What? It's hard to that family. It's so extreme extended, it's impossible to know.
- [42:24]
Michael
And then Trump has been saying, that guy seems like maybe he's the real thing, he's the grandson. So it's all mixed up in that Trump's Kennedy mind, but it actually sort of sounds like. And certainly this one person in New York who I spoke to had this conversation with Trump that he's kind of enamored with this kid.
- [42:56]
Joanna
That's so interesting. And of course, Jack.
- [42:59]
Michael
This is Jack Schlossberg, who is the,
- [43:02]
Joanna
who's running for District 12, Jerry Nadler's district, which is Manhattan. It's probably the best congressional district in the country in terms of influence, business and also range, because you have very poor districts and you have very wealthy districts.
- [43:16]
Michael
Right. And Jack Schlossberg is Caroline Kennedy's son, so the grandson of jfk, of John
- [43:24]
Joanna
F. Kennedy, and who, of course, lost his sister Tatiana in her mid-30s, who got cancer and who wrote once it became clear that she was dying and there was no treatment that could help her. A devastating essay in the New Yorker criticizing her uncle not only for changing vaccine protocol for babies, but for all the damage he's done with science and cutting back on science and medical research programs.
- [43:54]
Michael
Yeah. No, no. So it's. To put this, I mean, the Trump thing is clearly, you know, RFK is a problem. Let's push him, push him this way. And then to praise the cousin who.
- [44:13]
Joanna
So I think he would be then maybe first cousin once removed.
- [44:17]
Michael
Yes. Whatever the relationship is. But, you know, the other Kennedy family member who's trying to run, who's running for office would be, who has very
- [44:27]
Joanna
publicly criticized RFK Jr.
- [44:30]
Michael
So I'm sure the poor guy does not want a Trump endorsement. But it really sounds like Trump is, is Trump is tickled by this.
- [44:39]
Joanna
But, but what is going on then in RFK jr's head when he starts hearing whispers of this? I mean, who's telling him this? Who's saying, oh, you should know that, that Trump is. Trump is not best pleased. This is going well, I'm sure. Yeah.
- [44:55]
Michael
I mean, I'm sure it's, it's, it's top of, top of mind. And how, how he plays this. I, I don't, you know, I mean, that's a mind that would be hard to get into, actually.
- [45:09]
Joanna
Well. And it's been half eaten by a brain.
- [45:12]
Michael
Yeah.
- [45:14]
Joanna
So the little bit of the brain that is left, is it paranoiding out at this point? Is it?
- [45:21]
Michael
Well, I think that from RFK standpoint, he has to figure out Whether his base, RFK's base is the anti vax base and whether he speaks to that, continues to speak to that, or whether he tries to pivot away from that. From a political standpoint, I would say that he should probably double down on it. He might have to leave the administration, but that's his. Now his brand is clearly the anti science, anti vax. Yeah. And that's,
- [46:03]
Joanna
yeah.
- [46:03]
Michael
And that's a maga. You know, that. That certainly exists as a MAGA core. In the MAGA core,
- [46:14]
Joanna
it's hard for me to understand why MAGA women, for the most part, don't want their children vaccinated.
- [46:21]
Michael
And you're asking me this? I seems totally. I am.
- [46:25]
Joanna
What's happened to. Is it Casey means who is supposed to be the new Surgeon general.
- [46:31]
Michael
Yes. Also has having problems with the confirmat. This is a big. This is a sideshow. Another sideshow. That is certainly not good for Trump.
- [46:43]
Joanna
Okay, so final quick. Inside Hegseth. Inside Hegseth mind. I mean, I thought of it this morning because since Mark Wayne Mullin has moved into the Department of Homeland Security, they've removed all the big pictures that. That Kristi Noem put on the walls of herself in all her various different costumes. So as Coast Guard, as sheriff, who knows what she was doing. All her cosplay, which led to our nicknaming her Ice Barbie. All those pictures have apparently gone. Hegseth is someone who put up lots of pictures of himself and his wife, his emotional support animal, as he tells everybody he's no longer going to drink in this job and he's now running the American military in a state of war.
- [47:35]
Michael
No, I think that's. I think the big question for the big Hegseth question, the obvious Hegseth question is, is he still drinking? I mean, every story that you hear about Hegseth is about his drunkenness. I mean, the stories prior to.
- [47:57]
Joanna
Prior to his confirmation as Secretary of defense.
- [48:00]
Michael
War. Exactly. No. And I remember, I mean, Roger Ailes, who I used to speak to often, would constantly chortle, and he was annoyed by Higgs's drinking and the stories about Higgs's drinking. So that's a question. I mean, that would be a rare thing to have spent your life as a drunk to then to become the Secretary of Defense and say, I'm not gonna drink anymore. And actually not drink anymore. So it's a kind of. Let's put this question out. Who has seen Hagseth with a drink recently? Let us know if you.
- [48:43]
Joanna
Yeah, we should ask. There's always something. I mean, you and I both worked actually with an alcoholic who I didn't realize was an alcoholic, but the tell was that he always had a. A can of Coke in his hand. And I only found this out because as part of his 12 step program, he rang up to tell me that, to apologize and say, you may not have realized, but when I had that can of Coke, actually, there was lots of vodka in it. And I was.
- [49:11]
Michael
He didn't call me. How come I don't get an apology?
- [49:14]
Joanna
Well, I don't know why you don't get an apology, but it explains why he fell asleep in meetings. That was something that people noticed. But I was thinking about when Hegseth addressed the group of generals. Do you remember when he called in the generals from all over the world at enormous expense and lectured them about being fat? And he was drinking coffee at the time. And I remember thinking, that's such an odd thing to do. It's one thing to drink water when you're addressing a big crowd, but he made some illusion to the coffee while he was talking. And it made me wonder. And obviously I've zero idea whether or not Pete Hegseth is drinking. But to your point, if there is anybody out there who's been working with him and knows that he is still drinking, that would be interesting for us to know.
- [50:06]
Michael
But no, that's an interesting. I mean, you should never drink coffee when you're giving a presentation. I mean, first thing, it's incredibly sloppy and.
- [50:15]
Joanna
Well, it was coffee, wasn't it? He referred to it. Didn't he have a coffee in his
- [50:19]
Michael
hand and he put it down and drinking coffee, you have to kind of.
- [50:23]
Joanna
Well, and especially when you are lecturing a group of incredibly disciplined people sitting in front of you, the fact that you have to kind of lean on your cup of coffee, it's just bizarre. And I know that people are going to criticize me for calling his wife an emotional support animal, but the fact that she is taken into meetings, the fact there are pictures of her on the Pentagon walls, seems to me bizarre. Bizarre?
- [50:54]
Michael
Well, the whole Hegseth story, I mean, can it be more bizarre? I mean, the Weeknd co anchor of a television show is elevated to be the secretary a drunken weekend co anchor of a television show.
- [51:14]
Joanna
But why did Roger Ailes put up with it? I don't understand understand why Roger Ailes would know that Pete Hegseth had a drinking problem and sort of let it continue. Why didn't he say, go and dry out and come back when you're. When you're sober?
- [51:28]
Michael
Well, I think he had a lot of problems with a lot of people there, including his own problems. But, you know, I mean. I mean, Ailes always thought that everybody who was on television was a flawed and broken person in at some point, some level. And Hagseth, remember, it wasn't as if he was a network star. He was just a kind of Fox face who he would put on the weekends. Not anyone of consequence at the network.
- [52:06]
Joanna
Right. Well, he's of consequence now.
- [52:09]
Michael
Yeah. No, I mean, just to look at that, how that happened. And it's just part and parcel of what has happened in the Trump administration.
- [52:20]
Joanna
Okay, so we both better get out there. To go and protest on no Kings Day. I think. I think there's only one solution. We have to hurtle out in for the spring sunshine and stamp our flag. By the way, I bought an American flag the other day. I like the fact that you have an American flag hanging from your house. And I do think there is a whole move to reclaim the flag. It shouldn't just be Trumpian territory.
- [52:54]
Michael
Well, we've got it. We fly it all the time.
- [52:56]
Joanna
Yeah, no, it's good. I've got one, too. I've got one, too. Now I'm going to fly it too. All right, Michael, Feisty podcast today. We have no idea where we'll be next. Well, we'll have no idea where we'll be on Tuesday with the war, whether or not there'll be in negotiations, who they'll be negotiating with or who will be doing the negotiation from our side. Meanwhile, meanwhile, Russia and Ukraine continue with no apparent solution. And everybody's forgotten about Gaza
- [53:35]
Michael
till next week.
- [53:36]
Joanna
Okay. Till Tuesday. And if you have been, thank you for watching. Don't forget to share this episode with a friend. Leave us a comment on YouTube. So the good news is we have so many bee beast tier members now, there are too many names to read out. And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team. Devon Rogerino, Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhaus.