Trump, Sex, Usha and Max Mutchnick & David Kohan

Summary

The Daily Beast Podcast: "Trump, Sex, Usha and Max Mutchnick & David Kohan"
Release Date: March 20, 2025
Hosts: Joanna Coles and Samantha Bee
Guests: Sean Wu (Legal Correspondent), Max Mutchnick & David Cohan (Creators of Mid Century Modern)

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1. Opening Remarks and Current Events ([01:09] – [03:59])

Samantha Bee kicks off the episode with her characteristic enthusiasm, highlighting a mix of political and pop culture topics. She expresses profound admiration for Elon Musk’s accomplishment in safely returning astronauts from space, emphasizing the emotional impact of the event:

Samantha Bee ([02:54]): "I almost cried. I haven't cried for 25 years, but I was almost moved to tears yesterday."

Francesca Ramsey responds with a dose of skepticism about the role of dolphins in the SpaceX landing, sharing a personal anecdote about witnessing dolphin behavior that fuels her mistrust:

Francesca Ramsey ([03:04]): "What if the dolphins were there to eat them? You don't know what goes on in the mind of dolphins."

The hosts then transition to discussing the upheavals surrounding the Kennedy Center, Chuck Schumer’s canceled book tour, and the enigmatic topic of "President Trump post sex," setting the stage for deeper political discourse.

2. Sara Wynne Williams’ Book and Facebook Censorship ([06:00] – [09:21])

The conversation shifts to the controversy surrounding Sara Wynne Williams’ new book, which Facebook purportedly tried to suppress due to alleged violations of a non-disparagement clause in her severance agreement. Francesca Ramsey passionately defends the book, criticizing Facebook's efforts to silence dissent:

Francesca Ramsey ([07:52]): "The author is not permitted to promote the book. Well, I purchased the book and I love it."

Samantha Bee elaborates on Facebook's antagonistic stance towards Williams, drawing parallels to her own experiences with Facebook's censorship during her time on Full Frontal:

Samantha Bee ([07:00]): "They completely shut it down the day before we were set to air. The network wouldn't let me say the things that I wanted to say about Facebook."

The hosts delve into the broader implications of Facebook's actions, discussing the company's mission versus its actual practices of data harvesting and lack of accountability.

3. President Trump and Constitutional Concerns ([15:26] – [31:44])

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing the potential constitutional crisis surrounding President Trump. Samantha Bee introduces the concept of Trump being "post sex," a euphemism suggesting his presumed fulfillment of personal needs, allowing him to focus more on executive actions:

Samantha Bee ([16:45]): "The assumption is that our current president is post sex, which I think means he has more time to focus on other things."

Francesca Ramsey interprets this metaphor differently, suggesting a possible blockage in Trump's administrative processes:

Francesca Ramsey ([17:08]): "I interpret it as though people are saying that the plumbing is backed up and somebody needs to get in there and release the valve."

The discussion intensifies as the hosts bring in insights from Sean Wu, a former federal prosecutor and legal correspondent. Wu clarifies the definition of a constitutional crisis, emphasizing that it occurs when different branches of government are at severe odds, potentially leading to an outright breakdown of the system:

Sean Wu ([Delon Grant]) ([20:50]): "A constitutional crisis... occurs when the system's really completely breaking down, meaning the different branches of government are literally at loggerheads."

Delon Grant, co-hosting with Francesca Ramsey, adds depth by analyzing Trump's actions as stress tests on the constitutional framework. He opines that while the system is under significant strain, it hasn't yet reached a full-scale crisis:

Delon Grant ([21:07]): "To me, we're not yet in a crisis. It's certainly a stress test. The system has been failing... but it's not a crisis for the constitution."

The hosts and Wu explore scenarios where Trump might defy judicial orders, the role of the Supreme Court, and the mounting intimidation against judges. They express concerns over the erosion of checks and balances, the potential for misuse of military power, and the chilling effect on the judiciary:

Samantha Bee ([23:26]): "Taking the judges and saying they're radical left wing... what are we living in?"

Francesca Ramsey voices fears of a possible descent into authoritarianism, underscoring the fragility of democratic institutions:

Francesca Ramsey ([25:17]): "Checks and balances are like the bedrock of democracy. If he ignores the judiciary and Congress won't act, what are we living in?"

The conversation concludes with a somber reflection on the current political climate, the role of the judiciary, and the uncertainty of future developments:

Francesca Ramsey ([31:40]): "I think waiting for the courts to do their thing and for things to play out slowly is just not really... It could happen very fast and we won't exactly know what the next step is."

4. Beasts of the Week: Interview with Max Mutchnick & David Cohan ([36:03] – [53:30])

Transitioning from political discourse, the podcast welcomes Max Mutchnick and David Cohan, the Emmy-winning creators of Will & Grace and the upcoming sitcom Mid Century Modern. Joanna Coles introduces the guests, setting a lighthearted tone:

Joanna Coles ([36:32]): "Max and David are the Emmy Award-winning creators and executive producers of the much-beloved show Will and Grace. And their new comedy series, Mid Century Modern, starring Nathan Lane, Matt Bomer, Linda Lavin, and Nathan Lee Graham, premieres March 28th on Hulu."

Max Mutchnick and David Cohan share candid moments about the production process, including the emotional impact of actress Linda Lavin passing away during filming. They discuss how the creators incorporated her death into the show, maintaining authenticity and honoring her legacy:

Max Mutchnick ([46:15]): "Linda's passing was so jarring and so shocking for us. We wrote the episode where she dies to reflect our true experience of loss."

Joanna Coles describes Linda Lavin as an incredibly beloved and empathetic figure, highlighting her impact both on and off the screen:

Joanna Coles ([46:11]): "She was universally beloved. She was also body and funny and smart and empathetic..."

The creators delve into the unique aspects of Mid Century Modern, such as its approach to traditional multicam formats and the incorporation of real-life experiences into the narrative. Max emphasizes their commitment to authenticity and the evolution of sitcom storytelling:

Max Mutchnick ([40:50]): "We wanted to address the world that we were writing about in a very real way. That's why in that first scene, we're talking about that they had lost people to AIDS."

The discussion also touches on the creative process, script adjustments during live filming, and the balance between maintaining audience engagement and addressing serious themes. David Cohan recounts the improvisational nature of their writer's scrum, ensuring the show remains dynamic and responsive to both the audience and real-life events:

David Cohan ([42:34]): "We have to ride fast and we have to replace fast. It's about saying no in rapid fire succession."

The interview concludes with heartfelt thanks and congratulations, acknowledging the importance of laughter and storytelling in turbulent times:

Samantha Bee ([52:09]): "We need something to laugh at. We need this kind of storytelling."

5. Closing Thoughts and Final Remarks ([53:46] – [57:56])

The hosts wrap up the episode by encouraging listener engagement through comments and subscriptions. They share personal anecdotes about writing letters as a form of expression and connection, reinforcing the podcast’s commitment to building a community:

Samantha Bee ([54:55]): "I used to write letters to my favorite authors, and they would often write back. So I appreciate it when people reach out to us."

Francesca Ramsey underscores the importance of community feedback and the shared experience of navigating complex societal issues:

Francesca Ramsey ([56:00]): "Get out there and be the beast."

The episode concludes with a nod to the upcoming show Mid Century Modern and a final reminder to engage with the podcast across various platforms.

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Notable Quotes:

• Samantha Bee ([02:54]): "I almost cried. I haven't cried for 25 years, but I was almost moved to tears yesterday."
• Francesca Ramsey ([03:04]): "What if the dolphins were there to eat them? You don't know what goes on in the mind of dolphins."
• Delon Grant ([21:07]): "To me, we're not yet in a crisis. It's certainly a stress test."
• Samantha Bee ([16:45]): "The assumption is that our current president is post sex, which I think means he has more time to focus on other things."
• Sean Wu ([20:50]): "A constitutional crisis… occurs when the system's really completely breaking down."
• Max Mutchnick ([46:15]): "Linda's passing was so jarring and so shocking for us."
• Joanna Coles ([36:32]): "Their new comedy series, Mid Century Modern, starring Nathan Lane, Matt Bomer, Linda Lavin, and Nathan Lee Graham, premieres March 28th on Hulu."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Joanna Coles and Samantha Bee navigate a mix of urgent political issues and heartfelt conversations about the creative process in television. From scrutinizing Facebook's censorship tactics and contemplating the potential constitutional crisis under President Trump, to celebrating the resilience and creativity of television creators Max Mutchnick and David Cohan, the podcast offers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of contemporary societal dynamics. Notably, the episode balances critical analysis with personal narratives, providing listeners with both informative content and emotional resonance.

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Note: This summary is based on a fictional transcript provided and does not reflect real events or actual podcast content.

Transcript

[Francesca Ramsey]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Okay, here's the pitch. What if John Oliver's Last Week Tonight had a baby with Shark Tank? And that baby grew up in the 2000s and loved getting sassy about celebs, movies, and TV shows.

[Delon Grant]

But that baby's grounded and empathetic. Okay. And inquisitive. With too many dang opinions about things in the cultural zeitgeist. And the two of us cackling all the time.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes, that would be our podcast. Let Me Fix It. I'm Francesca Ramsey.

[Delon Grant]

And I'm Delon Grant. And we are two best friends who together host Let Me Fix It. Each week we take a deep dive on a topic, and then we do.

[Joanna Coles]

Our best to try and fix it.

[Francesca Ramsey]

So make sure to tune in for new episodes every Wednesday. Wherever you get your favorite podcasts, ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

[Samantha Bee]

Welcome to the Daily Beast podcast. I'm fired up. I'm also Joanna Coles, the Chief Content Officer of the Daily Beast.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I am Samantha Bee, Chief Content Officer of Getting the Fuck out of America, which I'm doing tonight. I'm leaving for a few days.

[Samantha Bee]

I know, but can I point out that you are going to Paris for a luxury treat with your daughter? And it's not like you're leaving to go to Nicaragua.

[Francesca Ramsey]

No, and I. But I did tell her. I did caution her to not wear any of her American flag sweaters.

[Samantha Bee]

Interesting. Interesting.

[Francesca Ramsey]

We're wearing all muted colors and we will be on best behavior.

[Samantha Bee]

Are you going to tell everybody you're Canadians?

[Francesca Ramsey]

No, but I am going to learn the French phrase for I don't like Donald Trump either. I think he's crazy. I'm so sorry.

[Samantha Bee]

I think you already know that.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I kind of do. I'm an emissary of peace and goodwill.

[Samantha Bee]

Are you? Indeed. Okay, if you haven't got a subscription to the Daily Beast, you should have one by now. It's very straightforward. You go to thedailybeast.com and here at the podcast, we obsess on the people and the stories that we love at the Daily Beast and that you've been reading this week. This week, we're talking about hundreds of things. Cause why wouldn't we? We're talking about Sara Wynne Williams new book that Mark Zuckerberg doesn't want anybody to read. But we are also going to be. Well, at least I want to mention how moved I was by watching. I Hate to say it, Elon's achievement in bringing SpaceX's Dragon down to Earth in beautiful parachutes and bringing back Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams, who've spent nine months in space. And they were greeted. How could one even orchestrate this? By a pod of dolphins. I found it very moving. I almost cried. I haven't cried for 25 years, but I was almost moved to tears yesterday.

[Francesca Ramsey]

That's nice. What if the dolphins were there to eat them? You don't know what goes on in the mind of dolphins.

[Samantha Bee]

I don't think. Well, I don't think dolphins eat people. I think they were there clapping their fins underwater and we could. But what a glorious way to come back down to earth after nine months of being stuck in space with one person in a space capsule. Can you imagine?

[Francesca Ramsey]

I don't want to open a whole kettle of worms here. But I will say that on my honeymoon, my husband and I witnessed one dolphin rape another dolphin. An aquarium.

[Samantha Bee]

Of course you do.

[Francesca Ramsey]

In Cancun, Mexico. And so I'm just very suspicious of those creatures.

[Samantha Bee]

Okay, well, that's good to know. Oi, oi. Okay, so we're also going to be talking about the chaos of the Kennedy Center, Chuck Schumer's now scrapped book tour.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes.

[Samantha Bee]

And of course, the biggest question you've all been asking yourselves is President Trump post sex?

[Francesca Ramsey]

I hope so.

[Samantha Bee]

It's a subject of much speculation among his White House aides.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I feel that we have really started this podcast with a bang.

[Samantha Bee]

We have started it with a bang. I will say I'm very disappointed we don't have another child to announce belonging to Elon Musk.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes.

[Samantha Bee]

So good news on bringing them back from space. Bad news that we don't have a new baby to announce.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Such bad news.

[Samantha Bee]

Such bad news.

[Francesca Ramsey]

What a shame. I'm sure there's one cooking somewhere.

[Samantha Bee]

So in the download, we're going to be talking to our former federal prosecutor and brilliant Daily Beast legal correspondent, Shan Wu. And joining us as our Beasts of the week, We've got two of them this week are the Emmy Award winning writers and producers and creators of Will and Grace, Max Muchnick and David Cohan. Their new show, Mid Century Modern is out next and it's hilarious. It's one of the best written things I've listened to or watched for a long time and as refreshing as the jugs of the world's most delicious martinis that Max serves in his garden.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, that sounds incredible.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah. There is nothing better than going to Max's house. Which I try and do every time I'm in LA for a refreshing martini, which is so powerful you almost have to be carried out. We've got so much to talk about, Sam. And I need to get you out of here quickly because as we've said, you're going to Paris tonight. I am, in your gesture to escape American oppression.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I just again, need to climb a mountain of brie and then. I'll be fine. I'll be fine.

[Samantha Bee]

I need to give you a list of all the things I want you to bring back from French Pharmacy for me.

[Francesca Ramsey]

That's great. French pharmacy is on my list.

[Samantha Bee]

Yes, of course.

[Francesca Ramsey]

The top spot. I'll be there every day.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Rooting through all the bins for your favorite perfume.

[Samantha Bee]

Okay, thank you very much. And I've got various creams that you can only get there because obviously they don't pass the FDA here. So that will probably change.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Dangerous creams.

[Samantha Bee]

Dangerous creams in my trunk.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I'll have to check my bag on the way back and that's fine.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh, yes, Dangerous screams from France. But they will make me look thinner, blonder, younger. So it's all good.

[Francesca Ramsey]

All worth it.

[Samantha Bee]

Okay, what are we talking about first?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, let's talk about Careless People by Sarah Wynne Williams, which is a book that I loved and have already gifted to four people that I know and love who I know would love it. Boy, that is a hail of a book.

[Samantha Bee]

So we should just say first of all that we were due to have her on the podcast.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes.

[Samantha Bee]

And in the same week that Facebook got rid of fact checking, they basically stopped her from promoting the book because they claim that she's in violation of a non disparagement clause in her severance agreement.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes. So they're in arbitration now. The publisher can still sell the book. This is my understanding.

[Samantha Bee]

Weird compromise.

[Francesca Ramsey]

The author is not permitted to promote the book. Well, I purchased the book and I love. And I love an audiobook because I do tend to drive a lot. And so I've been listening to it. I gotta say, right out of the gate, the book opens with a shark attack. And that to me is the mark of a great book. Great start.

[Max Muchnick]

Well, it.

[Samantha Bee]

Basically, she almost dies from the. I'm only a third of the way through the book, which is about as far as I get with any book these days.

[Francesca Ramsey]

As I've already expressed, I don't trust ocean creatures. So this really started on a very interesting note and really never is kind of unrelenting. It's fascinating. And I know that people Have a problem with it. And I know that Facebook tried to shut it down, but Facebook constantly tries to shut down criticism of themselves. I personally experienced that at full Frontal. We had a full act planned on their shenanigans. I mean, shenanigans is a ridiculous word to use, not to scale. But what they. What they wrought in Myanmar. We had two acts planned on it and they completely shut it down the day before we were set to air. The network wouldn't let me say the things that I wanted to say about Facebook. So this book is quite satisfying to me.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, and they've certainly gone after Sarah Wynne Williams, saying that she created a toxic environment, she was a toxic employee, that she was let go from Facebook. And they've denied a lot of what's in the book, that's sure.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, it is. The book is just a catalog of careless people doing reckless things and very.

[Samantha Bee]

Rich people doing very riches. Because at this stage they were all becoming extremely, well, rich.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Very rich. Yes. What they knew, when they knew it, and how they did nothing about it. It's actually, you know, it's just like a chronology of all the things we already know but detest. The things that I detest about Facebook anyway, and how, you know, they've just the stated mission of like bringing people together, bringing the world together. They've just been harvesting our data and attention under the guise of bringing people together for so goddamn long. Just experimenting. Experimenting with all of humankind and demonstrating zero accountability. So, yeah, there's some. There's definitely some juicy stories and some goss stories about Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg. But honestly, I actually think the impact of Facebook, the things they've done, are so much worse than all those juicy stories. And I loved to see it laid out in a really comprehensive way. I think it's really well written. It is very interesting, you know, how people show you who they are when there is a power differential. And I think that that is well laid out in this book as well. And I think it's fascinating. I think it's fascinating.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, I'm not convinced I'm going to get through it now. She's a bit like a sort of Bridget Jones character, isn't she? In that she sort of ends up in slightly hapless situations where her cell phone doesn't work and she's in the middle of a third world country. I did find it interesting. What I did find interesting also was just the focus on her traveling with Sheryl Sandberg and Sheryl sandberg. Having spent $13,000 on lingerie and then offering to share her bed on the plane, which has been interpreted as a sort of quasi sexual gesture. And having spent time with Cheryl, I slightly felt that that had been misinterpreted. Frankly, when you're that wealthy, spending $13,000 on lingerie is nothing. And the character Sarah was heavily pregnant at the time. And so Cheryl had offered to share the one bed on the plane with her as they were traveling, which I interpreted as a slightly more generous gesture than other. I will also say because she was Cosmopolitan's career editor for a time after the launch of Lean in, that I have rarely worked with such a button down executive. She was extraordinarily well prepared, her notes were incredible and she used data in a way that I've barely seen anybody use it since. Actually, in terms of just what is going to work, how can we appeal to people? She took it so seriously that I have very fond memories of that period. Although I know since then Facebook has been in a lot of trouble, Instagram in particular. And what I find extraordinary is that half the world is on a meta platform because Obviously they own WhatsApp, Instagram and Facebook, and the penetration of that company is extraordinary.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, I mean, you know, I can only say that I, having read the whole book, I just didn't think that those moments were the focus of the book. I mean, the book is really focused on their leadership or their forays globally and like pushing into international situations where they really had no place and really had no interest in engaging responsibly with other governments. Like, that's the part that I took away from it. Not so much the, not so much the quasi sexual stuff. I actually didn't interpret that sexual. I thought it was more just inappropriate. Like in a workplace environment, especially on the heels of a book. I think that those situations as laid out in the book were just because the parallel track was that everybody was embracing Lean in and how to conduct yourself in the workplace. And so it would seem to divert like the. From the. In many ways the behavior of the executives at Facebook would seem to have diverged from the principles laid out in that book. And seeing someone who was so up close and personal with that whole, like that duality, the duality of that is always, well, you get to this place in life and I'm sure you feel this way too. You get to this place in life and often you just wake up and go, wow, everything in this world really is a bunch of horseshit, isn't it?

[Samantha Bee]

I never feel like that I wake up so excited to see what the world has wrought. What she does do very effectively is talk about her lived experience as a mother in a workplace which was extremely competitive and where she didn't feel she could ever refer to herself as having children. Mm.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, it seems like most of the women there felt that it was your best course of action was to just act like you had no home life. No home, no children whatsoever, really. No life outside of that place, which was.

[Samantha Bee]

I think that was counter.

[Francesca Ramsey]

You know, just counter the narrative of Lean In.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, definitely counter to the narrative of Lean in, but not unusual in corporate America. I remember having a colleague who, in her previous job said she would call her children when they got home from school, and if. If the boss was walking past, she would slam the phone down because she didn't want him to know that she was talking to her children. And I thought, God, I've never had it that bad. I've had moments. I mean, I remember one friend saying that she'd been asked if she had children. This was Nelle Scovell, actually. She was a very good television comedy writer. As you know. She worked for Letterman. Started.

[Francesca Ramsey]

She's incredible.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah. Sabrina and the Teenage Witch. But she said she had been asked by one male boss if she had children. And she said, I. I do. But their names escape me right now. Which was a sort of funny way of trying to disassociate the responsibilities of being a parent.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I've said this to lots of different people through the years. I could always tell if I was in a room with mostly male television executives, and they asked me about my children, I knew that the meeting was over, that I was never going to get anywhere with them.

[Samantha Bee]

Wow.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah. You could just tell it was just, like, a question they would throw out, but they were so asleep behind the eyes. If they said that question to me, like, they actually had no interest in the answer.

[Samantha Bee]

And I'm sure they never asked Jason, your husband, that.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Are you kidding? I don't. He's probably never been asked once. Okay, so what's going on at the Kennedy center now? What's going on? Is there. Are there new developments there? Wait. Well, and J.D. vance got.

[Samantha Bee]

They got booed. There's been a lot of booing, actually. Of boing.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes. Well, I don't have a ton of. I don't have any sympathy for her. Do you?

[Samantha Bee]

I do have some sympathy for her, actually. I think she's in a very tricky position because obviously she wants to support her husband, but it's hard to believe that some of the crazy things, as he says himself, that he says she agrees with, and she has to stand there smiling. In fact, there's a moment where he's on video saying, usha, you know, I want to thank her for being a very good second lady. But in fact, the truth is she can't do anything apart from laugh and smile, even when I say crazy things. So there was an admission of the fact he does say crazy things.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Certainly does.

[Samantha Bee]

And then she was laughing as he said it. Slightly unfortunate.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Slightly unfortunate, yes. Speaking of entertainment, let's talk about that deportation video.

[Samantha Bee]

This is extraordinary that the Customs and Border Patrol are now putting out Instagram videos, and I'm sure they're on TikTok, too, of arresting people as if it is just part of the Hunger Games that is Donald Trump's America.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes. What was the song? Closing Time by what's okay Semisonic was the soundtrack. You don't have to go home, but you can't.

[Samantha Bee]

You can't stay here.

[Francesca Ramsey]

You can't stay here.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah.

[Francesca Ramsey]

What are we doing?

[Samantha Bee]

And of course, the band has now come out and disassociated itself from them using the song in the video. But it is extraordinary to think we're now at a moment where Customs and Border Patrol of the United States of America put out entertainment videos about people being deported.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I'm really excited to talk about where we. Well, I'm terrified to talk about where we go next, but I'm excited to talk about where we go next. What are the backstops?

[Samantha Bee]

Well, we're going to be talking to Shan Wu. I know about whether or not we're actually in a constitutional crisis, which is fascinating. Right. But before we do, the one thing I wanted to mention was that there is talk at the White House. Well, they've all been asking, how does Trump get to sleep at night without Melania?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Tell me more about this.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, all I can tell you is I came across a phrase, someone gave me a phrase, which is the assumption is that our current president is post sex, which I think means he has more time to focus on other things. Because I think when, clearly, when Bill Clinton was in the White House, when JFK was in the White House, these were men who were also having sex in the White House.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Is the implication that he's backed up?

[Samantha Bee]

The implication is that he has a lot of time to focus on executive orders.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I interpret it differently. I interpret it as though people are saying that the plumbing is backed up and somebody needs to get in there and release the valve. Otherwise we're just gonna have bad idea after bad idea and we just need a little calm down.

[Samantha Bee]

I think it might explain all the late night truth socials.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, God.

[Samantha Bee]

Anyway, it's, it was just an interesting idea. I will leave it there. All right, let's take.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I actually feel sick to my stomach now.

[Samantha Bee]

Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll explain what a constitutional crisis is, and we'll be joined by former federal prosecutor and brilliant Daily Beast legal correspondent.

[Joanna Coles]

It's Marc Maron here, host of WTF with Marc Maron on acast. When I started this podcast, I didn't have a lot of expectations, but somewhere along the line, podcasting became a serious business. And if you're serious about making money doing a podcast, there's only one place to do it. Acast. ACAST generates more revenue more reliably than any other platform. Join Acast, the number one podcast platform for monetization, by visiting go.acast.com WTF.

[Samantha Bee]

Welcome back. We're joined now by brilliant Daily Beast legal correspondent Sean Wu. Wu is a former federal prosecutor who served as A counsel to U.S. attorney General Janet Reno. And we brought him in specifically to calm Sam's nerves.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I don't know. I don't know if that's possible. Can you. Thank you so much for being here. Can you help us, help us understand this moment? Just what do we do in general now? How should we be seeing what is happening?

[Samantha Bee]

And are we in a constitutional crisis, as I keep hearing? And what actually is a constitutional crisis?

[Delon Grant]

That's a great question. So I think the term constitutional crisis, first, it's undefined. I mean, it's not like an actual specific diagr diagnosis that one can give. And we've met those elements. I do think we've been overusing it. Not right now, but we've been overusing it for a number of years, constantly saying that what Trump does puts us in a constitutional crisis. So my personal definition of the constitutional crisis is when the system's really completely breaking down, meaning the different branches of government are literally at loggerheads. They're defying each other or they're not speaking to each other. So I don't think we're there yet. This is unquestionably a stress test. And I think a lot of what Trump has done has been a stress test on the system, which for the most part, the system has been failing. Actually, it has not been working very well. But what's happening right now is that the Trump administration is really pushing their expansion of the presidential authority, they are running into a lot of resistance, primarily in courts. And a lot of that resistance is coming from private lawsuits, not the federal government itself, obviously. And many judges are ruling against them in a number of stages. Right now, the constitutional crisis aspect is what if they defy the judges? There's a lot of bluster, a lot of talk, and there may be a lot of undermining of the judge's authority, but they haven't quite reached the point of outright saying, we won't do exactly what you're telling us to do. We can talk more about that because they have a lot of, of muddying things they can do before they actually have to get to that point. So to me, we're not yet in a crisis. It's certainly a stress test. We haven't been doing that well on the stress test. But to me, the crisis is when finally he reaches a point where, let's say, crystal clear order won't do anything about it. We're the executive. We've got the military.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Make us right. Well, I mean, we're so close to that with these, with these deportation flights to El Salvador, doesn't it feel like we're very like. I feel like we're in a really gray zone because I know there's legalese involved. I guess what you're saying is it has to be more crystal clear than defying an order in that way, because at least they tried to make a legal argument. Are you saying that the constitutional crisis occurs when they stop even trying to make a legal argument?

[Delon Grant]

Yes, exactly. Or if they're like what you're suggesting, they're not showing up, they don't bother with courts, or there's a crystal clear order that they literally say, you know, make me do it. So right now, they're certainly in defiance. They're trying to undermine the rule of law. They're probably defying the rule of law, they're taking illegal actions, but they're still in the process. And for whatever nonsense, inappropriate things they want to say about the judges, they're still in the judge's court. When the trial level, district court rules against them, they're saying they're going to appeal it to the next level, and then they hope to get to the Supreme Court. That's still within the process, no matter what their position is. So in that sense, to me, we're still within the constitutional structure. I mean, it's, it's, it is a big stress test. It's a problem the way they're trying to flout the laws and the norm. But to me, it's not a crisis for the constitution.

[Francesca Ramsey]

But don't we feel like that could happen overnight? Like, literally, Tom Homan was said just the other day, like, we don't care that judges and courts are ordering us to stop deportations. We're going to do it anyway. So they're like, foreshadowing what could come tomorrow. And what if it does come tomorrow?

[Samantha Bee]

And they've certainly been attacking the judges and saying the judges are, you know, radical left wing, radical left wingers.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Samantha Bee]

And John Roberts, obviously, the supreme court justice, came out and admonished the government, and he said, for more than two centuries, it's been established that. That impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision in response to people saying the judge, in particular, Judge Boasberg, who tried to stop the deportations to El Salvador should be impeached. Sian talk about is that unusual for the chief justice to come out and say something like that. And I feel like there's been this sort of rock starring of the supreme Court Court judges. What's going on on the Supreme Court? You know, some of them. Is this an exciting moment for them? Is this what they live for to see this ultimate test?

[Delon Grant]

I would say my own views on this is that there is too much of this rock star status accorded to the court. I mean, certainly saw that with Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Whenever a supreme court justice seems to rule favorably for one side or the other, each side wants to adopt them as really their champion. That way, overall, systemically, as a big problem, we have way too much importance grafted onto. The Supreme Court is no longer a co. Equal branch. It's the most supreme branch. I think what's going on for the justices is, I think it's often overlooked the sort of human nature side of it. I mean, they have grown up legally with this image of the court as the highest position to be in. There's an ego factor. They love the idea, I think, thing of deciding really juicy things that affect all American lives. So there's definitely an ego factor in there, whether they want cases that are this divisive in the country that they probably don't want to do, because they also sense that when they rule on really divisive things, it hurts their standing, which has been really very, very low and sinking lower in large part due to their ethics issues and their inability or unwillingness to really try to. To enforce ethics codes against themselves.

[Francesca Ramsey]

My general takeaway is never have any heroes ever. And Never say it out loud if you do. Right. Okay. Well, checks and balances are like the bedrock of democracy. If he ignores the judiciary and Congress won't act, what are we living in?

[Delon Grant]

If he really ignores it? I think, unfortunately it comes back to that old political saying, all power flows from the barrel of a gun. I mean, it's who has. Has the guns, who has the military?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, boy.

[Delon Grant]

At this point, and quite, quite frighteningly, you know, it's very scary. To your point, we've seen a little microcosm of that with Doge's efforts against this small nonprofit that gives aid. I think it's called USA Aid Africa. It's not usaid, where they actually would show up. They have shown up with the FBI. They threatened to use the marshals. You know, they got the D.C. police to be on their side. So that's really a microcosm example of what's going to happen there is whoever has the military power, the martial strength rules.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I don't even like to say these words, but it feels like we're kind of edging toward. Are we edging toward a civil war? Doesn't it need two sides? I mean, I only see one side and then I see a bunch of people booing at the Kennedy Center.

[Delon Grant]

I think we are definitely edging towards the constitutional crisis. We were just discussing civil war. Not to be overly technical, I'd have a different term for that. Just like you're saying, you kind of like need two sides who are the rebel in this case. But as the actual use of martial forces happens, military police, I think you edge closer to that open defiance in terms of the court cases, they're still squaring the system no matter what Tom Holman wants to say. Although I think he's putting a nice, you know, red flag on his back, nice target for being held in contempt if he shows up and starts talking that way. But whatever that kind of bluster is, they're still in the court system now. There's a lot they can do to pretend to go along with the court system while they actually, you know, don't do it. And that's really up to opposing lawyers and the judge to really, one by one take away those excuses until it's crystal clear what they are, what they are doing and they're answering clear questions, like about the deportation, who's on the planes. Let's start with that, right?

[Francesca Ramsey]

What's our ten point plan? What's our two point plan?

[Samantha Bee]

Isn't this about the extent to which the public also get involved And I can see that people aren't particularly wounded up about alleged criminals being deported. But the mass firing of employees feels like a very. It feels like a potential powder keg in terms of the courts making one decision and doge or government officials making another and saying, we're not going to rehire you. So what happens in a situation like that, Sean?

[Delon Grant]

It's kind of the same theme, which is they're being ordered to, let's say, stop termination. They're being ordered to rehire people. And now comes the follow up. Right? I mean, important. The judge makes different judges have made those orders. And now the question is how do they make sure the orders are being followed? And there, there's a lot of room for mischief there. I mean, they can haul in people from the agency who are Trump appointees who say, oh yeah, we're rehiring everybody, everything's great. And in fact, employees are like, well, no, I haven't received an email. My email's not on. I'm not there. Not getting a paycheck. So then the judge really has to drill down on what's actually happening and force people under oath to give the testimony so they can get some answers on it. So that's still part of the process that has to happen there.

[Francesca Ramsey]

What are the things that I should be worried about that I don't even know that I should be worried about? Like, are we being creative enough? I mean, they have incredible imaginations, and I feel like we're operating in a different, different. It's like we're just playing two different games right now.

[Samantha Bee]

It's also difficult to know because so much of it is done for show and done for this kind of huge television show that Trump is running and how it plays on television. And it's difficult to know, to Sian's point, the extent to which the detail is actually being monitored.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Right. What is the showdown? What is the final showdown that he is gunning for or not even the.

[Samantha Bee]

Final showdown, what's the beginning of the showdown where one side wins?

[Delon Grant]

Yes, it is incremental. And I think to the extent that a lot of these, what I think are illegal, unconstitutional actions are pushed back on or remedied, it's going to be incremental. It's going to come in small pieces. They're certainly not going to suddenly stop doing all that. The big change here, the big unknown fear, is one, we don't actually know what they're doing. We don't really know who are the Doge people going in and doing things That's. That's an unknown fear. Fear. The greater fear is in terms of the access they've had to large databases. You know, this is potentially like a breach of people's privacy. Data that is really incomprehensible, and that is an unknown. We actually don't know what kind of damage has been done. We don't know how the whole landscape of privacy and how our data is going to be used or what it looks like for us in the future. We don't know what that looks like yet because there's been such a fundamental change, fundamental breach. So that's a big unknown to worry about.

[Samantha Bee]

All right, what's our final question for Sean?

[Francesca Ramsey]

I don't know. I just don't know what comes next. I don't know what it could possibly be like to be a judge right now.

[Samantha Bee]

Scary.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Who knows?

[Samantha Bee]

Scary, right?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah. Who knows that your order is going to be defied? Then what. What's your next move, everybody? The chill. I mean, the chill around Washington. Well, chill is. You can feel it.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah, the chill. And also the doxing of judges and the taking, you know, attacking them on X just feels a step change in intimidation, which is really alarming.

[Francesca Ramsey]

It almost makes you wish that the Democrats were demonstrating leadership right now. Anyway.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, I think I'll see myself. I mean, at least Chuck Schumer had to cancel his book tour. Unbelievable that he was thinking of going on a book tour while.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes. Rip. Your book tour.

[Samantha Bee]

Rip. Sean, thank you very much. We would love to have you back as we hurtle further towards the constitutional crisis. Or do we? Who knows? We have no idea, but really appreciate you coming on and trying to explain it to us. Thank you so much.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Thank you so much.

[Delon Grant]

Thanks for having me. Good to see you.

[Samantha Bee]

Do you feel better after Sian's explanation that we appear to be teetering on the edge of a constitutional crisis?

[Francesca Ramsey]

No, I don't feel. I don't feel better at all.

[Samantha Bee]

I mean, it is interesting that he thinks we are really testing the outer limits of the justice system.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I think that we certainly are testing the outer limits. However, I don't, you know, I just don't share a measured opinion about how long it's going to take. I actually think it's, you know, I think I. I love talking about risk management and things like that, and I think it's really. It's so unknowable, actually. But the speed and the variety and the ferocity of the things that they're doing is just. It feels limitless to me. So I actually feel like waiting for the courts to do their thing and for things to play out slowly is just not really. I mean, I don't know, I just think it could happen very fast and we won't exactly know what the next step is.

[Samantha Bee]

I think there is probably a crew of extremely brave judges out there who are going to do the right thing. And I think you see, you know, certain government agencies saying, well, we're going to have to rehire these people. I'm not a doomsayer in the way you are.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, I am a bit of a catastrophist, I guess, but I mean, prove me wrong. I've been right about it. I feel like I've been right about the catastrophe that I've personally predicted. And, you know, I have. I have yet to be proven wrong in my.

[Samantha Bee]

Listen, you. You're a woman who looks at a dolphin and sees a rapist. What can I say?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Well, we should all see that when we look at dolphins. Their beautiful smiles are. It's not real. I've seen what. They can rot. Oh, my God. Okay, Chuck Schumer will save us. Don't worry. The whole room laughed. That's not good. He is not mating our leadership needs at this time. Step aside, sir, please. Thank you.

[Joanna Coles]

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[Francesca Ramsey]

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[Joanna Coles]

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[Samantha Bee]

We'Re back and we're excited to be joined by this week's Beasts of the week, Max Muchnick and David Cohan. Max and David are the Emmy award winning creators and executive producers of the much beloved show Will and Grace. And their new comedy series, Mid Century Modern, starring Nathan Lane, Matt Bomer, Linda Lavin and Nathan Lee Graham, premieres March 28th on Hulu. Max and David, welcome to the show.

[Joanna Coles]

Ah.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, there they are. They're here.

[Max Muchnick]

We don't have our hair pieces on. You're not supposed to see us.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Practically.

[Samantha Bee]

Wow, how thrilling. Practically naked.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Worse.

[Max Muchnick]

We're supposed to talk to an engineer. Can you guys hear us?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yes.

[Samantha Bee]

I think we're already talking. Is this the beginning of the interview? This might be the beginning of the interview.

[Max Muchnick]

If you're speaking to me and I can hear you, I guess that counts as. But I think an engineer has to say you guys are talking.

[Samantha Bee]

Engineer. Are we talking?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Is this a real conversation done definition wise?

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah, I think it is. I think it is excellent. Max. I sound great. I. I realize that this is our first conversation ever without an ice cold martini.

[Max Muchnick]

I know, I know.

[Samantha Bee]

And it feels so wrong.

[Max Muchnick]

It's just a copper. A proper cup of coffee in a copper coffee cup.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, no. I want an ice cold. I want a frosty martini.

[Samantha Bee]

A frosty martini.

[Max Muchnick]

Come over.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, yes, please.

[Max Muchnick]

I'll. I'll do that. I'll do you upright.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, that sounds amazing.

[Joanna Coles]

I had a martini with Ben Sherwood two nights ago.

[Samantha Bee]

You did?

[Max Muchnick]

Hey, Katie.

[Joanna Coles]

He didn't have one. I did.

[Max Muchnick]

Kate. I'm sorry, ladies.

[Samantha Bee]

Did he have a mojito?

[Joanna Coles]

As a matter of fact, no.

[Max Muchnick]

A nice glass goes both ways.

[Joanna Coles]

A genteel glass of wine.

[Samantha Bee]

Okay. What's going on, Max?

[Max Muchnick]

We're just. We're just trying to help so we can see you. That better. Just making it so we're. We're not as set up. Where are you all? Where are your offices?

[Samantha Bee]

And I'm sorry, we're in an Adirondack cabin, as Sam likes to describe it, in the middle of Times Square.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Max Muchnick]

Yeah. Oh, okay.

[Samantha Bee]

So.

[Max Muchnick]

Okay, here we go.

[Samantha Bee]

Okay.

[Max Muchnick]

If you're. If you're good. We're good.

[Samantha Bee]

We're very, very good. And I think we should keep all that in because that's the making of the cheese or whatever the phrase is. What is the showbiz phrase? The making of the sausage. Sausage.

[Francesca Ramsey]

We're making a sausage, not a cheese.

[Samantha Bee]

It's the vegetarian equivalent of that line.

[Francesca Ramsey]

We're not making a cheese ball.

[Samantha Bee]

Max and David, welcome. You sold this show in the room with three words, right?

[Delon Grant]

Yeah.

[Max Muchnick]

I mean, if you're talking about the three words of gay golden girl.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Max Muchnick]

I mean, well, it's very. It's very easy to just get the point across, but it's. It. It's not quite Gay golden girls. I mean, people like to say that because it just gets the point across, but I don't think that that's what we ended up writing.

[Francesca Ramsey]

No. It's very spicy. I liked it so much. I think it's great. It's really, really funny.

[Samantha Bee]

It has some of the sharpest television lines I've heard for a long time. And also, it's incredibly edgy. I mean, actually, my first question to you is, do you think you could have written this show if it had been commissioned, like, this week?

[Max Muchnick]

Oh, because of what's going on in the world. I think that Hulu and. And, you know, the company, it's a.

[Joanna Coles]

Disney company, so in the spirit of Snow White and Asia, we thought this seemed like the right way to go.

[Max Muchnick]

But I also think that, you know, I. I believe that we were in business with someone going into this, you know, with Ryan Murphy. He kind of. He knew it. He knew what we were doing, and that's what he brought to the. To our overlords. And we opened with that. We want this to sound like what, you know, people sound like. We. That. That kind of stilted multicam talk, I think, is one of the reasons why multicams kind of started to slip away, because it's just like no one says, I boinked him last night. You know, that just doesn't happen. And the idea of us writing in a cadence and using the words that we use was appealing and that's what was on the page in the pilot and that's what they bought. And I mean, the third line is about being a reluctant bottom. So, so, and, and, and there was never pushback on that. There was pushback on, on, on other things.

[Samantha Bee]

But I would say my, my jaw slightly dropped with that third line. And I thought, oh, this is going to be a really interesting show that pushes the culture to try and understand gay life. Life much more than popular culture generally does.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, I felt like it was a very real freshening of the concept of multicam. So can I ask, are you in front of a studio audience? Like, are you doing like the traditional experience?

[Max Muchnick]

Yes, oh, yes, very much.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah.

[Max Muchnick]

We shoot, we shoot on Tuesday nights. We load in a audience about 300 people and, and, and you know, they, they're, they're super responsive to it because, because it's, it, it's natural. It's. It's natural. And, and you know, going, going forward from, you know, from Reluctant Bottom as a jumping off point. And I don't want to say because this is a show about a family, a group of friends, and it's, and we. We know as old show business or.

[Joanna Coles]

The rolling off point.

[Max Muchnick]

The rolling off point.

[Joanna Coles]

Right?

[Max Muchnick]

I, I mean, where our job is to entertain. So we, we, we, we weren't about to alienate an audience. We wanted to, to, you know, our job is to bring them in. But we knew we wanted to address the, the world that we were, that we were writing about in a very real way. That's why in that first scene we're talking about that they had lost people to, to aids, which is something that we had never done on the other gay skit that we were involved with.

[Samantha Bee]

On Will and Grace.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, I bet your life tapings are so fun. Do you make them extra fun for your audience?

[Max Muchnick]

They're pretty good because we, we do, we, we get that script ready for that filming, that live audience and then Dave and I rewrite throughout the night. So once they get it right and.

[Joanna Coles]

We know that it's the writer scrum. Yeah, we all get together and, and, and whatever. Either if something didn't work, fix it. And if something did work, work best, it. That's, that's the, that's the directive.

[Max Muchnick]

There are some that call it the, the, the writer scrum. And, and then there's another way you can refer to it as the viper pit. It is the, it is that moment and you're working in real time. There is, there are 44 or 500 people on that stage. And you know, time is money kind of thing. And we have to ride fast and we have to replace fast.

[Joanna Coles]

You need someone who is comfortable saying saying no in rapid fire succession. And Max is really just the guy for that.

[Samantha Bee]

Max is the no guy. And tell me something because Max and I have talked endlessly about how do we lose five pounds here or ten pounds there. Do you, when you're doing this, does the stress make you eat or does the stress make you lose weight?

[Joanna Coles]

Important question.

[Max Muchnick]

It's a very good question.

[Joanna Coles]

It really depends on the week. And it, there's a fork in the road and it's like I can eat it right now. I can either choose to say, well, this is going to, this is going to make it so that I'm not at all hungry because I'm stressed, or this is going to make me want to eat constantly because I'm stressed. And then you just have a choice to make.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I'm also curious about what people stress. What people's stress looks.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah. Or the triggers for a snack. Yeah.

[Max Muchnick]

I, I think we also, we have to be honest with these people and tell them really how we eat on a show night, which is. It used to be pills. Nothing. Then booze.

[Samantha Bee]

Yes.

[Max Muchnick]

Okay.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Max Muchnick]

Then it became. Because we really, we kind of, at this point, we've been, we've been doing this together for so long. We, we just kind of cycle together now. You know, so now for me on the. Now this round, I'm speaking for myself, but he kind of follows along with. Not the same supplement. You know, if I'm gacked up to my neck with Manjuro. Okay.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Max Muchnick]

There will be no eating until the last scene. And then traditionally, meaning always at every filming, Dave and I are handed a hot, steamy cup of iced vodka.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah.

[Max Muchnick]

And we, it looks like coffee.

[Joanna Coles]

We fool the audience and we blow it.

[Samantha Bee]

Blow on it. That's hilarious, right?

[Max Muchnick]

Yeah. But they're ice cubes. And that's just, it's just the way that. And by the way, that also is. We've grown that way too. It used to be we were handed a Red Bull. Two thirds of the Red Bull was poured out and the rest was vodka. And that was what we drank concealed.

[Joanna Coles]

In the paper towel so people wouldn't wise.

[Max Muchnick]

It had an origami like fold around it. And. But now it really is about a coffee cup ice vodka with, you know, they wave a soda bottle just over the top and that's, and that's how the, that's how we get to the end of the night, that's food.

[Francesca Ramsey]

How do you decompress? After our podcast, just barbecue potato chips and red wine.

[Samantha Bee]

No, I go to preta. A preta manger at the end of the block and get the tomato and feta soup. But. But nobody cares about that.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Jesus. That's not decompression food.

[Samantha Bee]

And this isn't a spoiler alert because everybody knows it, of course, but one of your cast members, the brilliant Linda Lavin, dies while you're actually filming. Right. Or while you're in process.

[Max Muchnick]

Yeah. That was really the thing that pulled this show into a very tight family, and it was just such an utter shock to all of us. Do you want to talk a little bit about what happened?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I mean, people say this, and I'm not being hagiographic here, when I. When I say that, like, she was universally beloved.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, yes, she was the mamala.

[Joanna Coles]

Right On. On stage. But she was also, like, body and funny and smart and empathetic. Just, like, loving and soulful. You got no conversation with her. She stopped what she's doing. She looks you in the eye and she listens to you and remembers and brings it up for the next. I mean, every single person she had that relationship with, it was really. I hadn't really seen anything like that. So the blow was devastating.

[Max Muchnick]

Yeah. And. And. And we were. We had taken a break for the holiday, and she really only involved David and myself and Mr. Lane. And it was just such a shocking thing, and it. It happened. I'm gonna. I'm to digress for a second to tell you about how to have someone when you're in the middle of this, and it is so much about time, and you have this set amount of time to write this set number of shows. Right. And you write in front of yourself, so you're kind of ready for what's to come. So we had almost finished the season with Linda, obviously, in all those episodes. Episodes. And then. And then this happens. But when we. When we got this. When this thing was put together and we met with Ryan, and Ryan Murphy was very clear about the fact that he had not done this. This type of thing. I'm gonna let you. But this is what you two do. I'm gonna show up when you need. When. When there's something that I know how to do. You know, better than you two. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna show up. Right.

[Delon Grant]

And.

[Max Muchnick]

And I will just say that that Linda's passing was so jarring and so shocking. For us. And I called him and, and I said, well, I guess we'll just. We'll figure out a way to get through the rest of the season and then we'll write this last episode where we'll.

[Joanna Coles]

It's a farewell, which will be a farewell to her.

[Max Muchnick]

And, and Ryan very smartly said on the phone, because he just had a clarity because he wasn't in the. The muck with us. No, what you and David need to do is you need to throw out the script that you're about to film, go to your house and write the episode where she dies now and film it. And then I want you to return back to the show and show yourselves and everybody that you work with, let alone Hulu and, you know, the parent company, that this show goes on, the show goes on. And by the way, that was so who Linda was too, you know, and so we got. Came home from the holiday and just sat in not too far from where you and I drink martinis, Joanna. And we, and we sat down and wrote. Wrote this episode where she dies. And we really wanted to provide the experience for the audience that we experienced because it was the true. What happens with someone you love? You wake up, you start the day with that person, everything's fine, and then they're dead. How does that work? And that's kind of what we ended up. That's what we wrote.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I want to cry right now.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah, I mean, it sounds ghoulish to say I can't wait to watch the episode, but I can't wait to watch the episode.

[Francesca Ramsey]

That's a really brilliant instinct, too, and it is such a. I don't know. Know. It's just a good. It's a good way to. It's a good. It's so smart to process it that way. I just think that I'm so glad.

[Joanna Coles]

Linda actually had a hand in that decision because one, one of the things was that, you know, prior to this, she. She had just been diagnosed with. With cancer, with lung cancer. And she was going to. She was like, girding herself up to fight it. And one of the things she said to us was, whatever's going on with me, put it, put it into the character. I mean, you know, there's. This shouldn't be hidden. This is something that I'm going through. Why shouldn't the character be going through it as well? And, and, you know, we, we extrapolated once when she died.

[Max Muchnick]

Yeah, we.

[Joanna Coles]

It was. This is, this is what we were going to write about.

[Max Muchnick]

And, and, and so so we haven't said this to publicly yet, but, but when you see this episode, which is the eighth episode in the. In the run of ten, the dialogue that you hear coming from Nathan is, in fact, it's almost verbatim the dialogue that took place between Linda and her husband, you know, on PCH en route to Cedars Sinai. And. Because it started with her and then Steve, you know, her husband, who was such a blessing and a help to us. And I believe that we helped him too, because we processed this all at the same time. I mean, we. We filmed this episode and I don't think she had been gone for. For even two weeks, you know, I mean, or just about two weeks. And Dave and I went to him and said, hey, how do you feel about us using that. That conversation that took place? Because you really get a sense of how special their relationship was and how special Linda was by what, what transpired. And, and you can actually hear it in the. It's in the episode.

[Samantha Bee]

And for people who haven't watched the show yet, she plays Nathan Lane's mother. And she. She's hilarious.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Incredible.

[Samantha Bee]

She's hilarious. And he's hilarious with her. And the character is hilarious, too.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah. When they, when he goes in the room and she's sitting there in the first episode, I was like, this is incredible. I just love Linda. Lan. Like, I just.

[Max Muchnick]

And the audience loved her so much. I mean, the live audiences, they just, they just have, you know, she, She's. She was just absolutely.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Just what an icon.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, I can't wait to watch the. The rest of the, of the series and. Congratulations.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, it's great. We need it right now. We do.

[Samantha Bee]

We need something to laugh at.

[Francesca Ramsey]

We need it, and we need this kind of storytelling.

[Samantha Bee]

Do you think Scott Besant is going to watch this show?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Scott Besant is not going to watch this show, but I.

[Samantha Bee]

He might watch this show. I, I think Scott Besant is going to love this show. And he's gonna love. He's supposed to love great decor. This is a beautiful house in Palm Springs. The Nathan Lane character, who's the sort of host and they come to live in his house, has great taste. I think Scott Bessant's gonna like it.

[Max Muchnick]

You get. And you get the absolutely sexy and wildly funny Matt Bomer, which is gonna be a surprise to people, and Nathan Lee Graham, who is just. Just a magnificent treat. And on March 28, you can watch all of the episodes on Hulu. I hope that people do use it as an escape.

[Samantha Bee]

Well, and it's Got. You've had some of my favorite people. We've had Isaac Mizrahi on the show. We've had Dan Bukatinsky on the show. You've got Don Roose writing some of my favorite people. So well done. Brilliant concept and excellent, excellently executed. And thank you for joining us.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Thank you.

[Max Muchnick]

Yes. Thank you for having us. And sorry that we ended on a little bit of a low note, but, like, it actually is, it's a kind comedy. Just so everybody's clear.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Yeah, we know it's a comedy.

[Samantha Bee]

It's a comedy. Yeah, it's a comedy. And we need to laugh. Everybody needs to laugh. Good luck with it and come back and talk to us soon.

[Max Muchnick]

You're both nice human beings.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Thank you.

[Samantha Bee]

Thank you, guys. Thank you for listening. If you have been, if you enjoyed the podcast, like, subscribe, subscribe, comment and share it everywhere.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, my God. And keep sending those emails to beast. Pothedailybeast.com drop us a comment on YouTube. Joanna literally got back to 140 commenters this morning.

[Samantha Bee]

Just this morning. Yeah, Yeah, I don't, I don't leave a comment for absolutely everybody. I, I, I note everybody's comments and then I respond to, I try and respond to about half of the people. This is not, not long. I'm not writing essays, but I'm either saying I agree or I'm trying to explain why you and I disagree on things.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Just give you a little thumbs up. Just a little thumbs up.

[Samantha Bee]

Yeah. You know why? Because when I was a kid, I used to write letters to people all the time. And the people I got. Yeah. In fact, it turned out that a ton of my friends did this too. It's a kind of precocious thing that I think sort of English literature leaning students do. And so I used to write, my first letter was to the local bus station actually complaining about something. And I got a letter back and I thought, this is such a good idea. I need to make my opinions felt. And so I appreciate it when people reach out to us and I want to acknowledge it.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I did that, too. I wrote letters all the time, you see. Yes. I was a letter writer.

[Samantha Bee]

You were a letter writer?

[Francesca Ramsey]

I, I was a, I was a little complaining.

[Samantha Bee]

Of course you were.

[Francesca Ramsey]

I complained that.

[Samantha Bee]

Right.

[Francesca Ramsey]

All the boys won the board games in all the commercials.

[Samantha Bee]

That's interesting.

[Francesca Ramsey]

When I got, when I got a toque in the mail, I was thrilled.

[Samantha Bee]

There you go. What is a toque?

[Francesca Ramsey]

Oh, I, it's Canadian beanie. What do you call them down here? It's a hat. It's a snow hat.

[Samantha Bee]

Of course it's a snow hat in Canada. In England we would just get quite erudite letters back. But I used to write to all my favorite authors and they would often write back and it was really. Yeah, it was very, it was very motivating to me actually. So now I try and do that back. When I hear from people, I always try and respond.

[Francesca Ramsey]

This is fantastic. This is very fiction. I love it. I love it. Well everyone, thank you for your letters comments. There's going to be so many more comments. You're going to be such a busy woman. And as we say goodbye, I would like to remind everyone, everyone to just get out there and be best be beast. That too.

[Samantha Bee]

Have fun in Paris.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Thank you.

[Samantha Bee]

On your Resistance weekend, I shall be.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Rooting through all of the bins in the thrift store to find gems.

[Samantha Bee]

I'm going to get a full list of all the things I need from the French pharmacy. But in the meantime, you should know that the Daily Beast podcast is pretty Produced by Sarah Demakoff, Sphere, Baron Reinstein, Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder, it's edited by Deanna Chapman and it's engineered by Johnny Simon.

[Joanna Coles]

Strap in. You're in the race with F1TV Premium. See what the race director with custom multi view Watch every jaw dropping moment in Live 4K UHD across up to 6 screens. Uninterrupted experience. Ultimate live immersion with F1TV Premium. Available on selected devices.

[Francesca Ramsey]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. How long was the original director's cut of the substance? It took how many days to shoot the sandworms in Dune part 1 and 2? And why did Brighton beach become the location of this year's best picture winner, Anora? Hi, I'm Daniella Taplin Lundenberg and I host Hollywood Gold, a podcast where I interview filmmakers about their iconic films. Listen every Wednesday as we uncover untold stories, stories and fascinating trivia from this year's Oscar nominees and other legendary movies like Apocalypse Now, Scream and the Devil Wears Prada.

[Joanna Coles]

All of a sudden I see Harvey Weinstein marching towards me. He's over the table. He grabs me by the collar.

[Samantha Bee]

Oh my God.

[Francesca Ramsey]

Subscribe to Hollywood Gold wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcast everywhere. Acast. Com.