Michael Wolff (2:59)

I think they're covering it poorly. But.

Joanna Coles (3:01)

Okay, well, I want to say that, because I know it's hard to cover this stuff, but the reason that I love talking to you about Donald Trump is because I think you have a completely different perspective. And you cover it from the point of him not being a politician, not behaving by the rules. And you're not lamenting the fact he's not behaving by the rules. You're just leaning into who he is, which is ultimately a performer, a television producer, and someone who is craving, who is desperate for attention and will do anything to get it.

Michael Wolff (3:37)

You know, it's also a different. And I have tried to make this case so many times, and it appears I made it badly because it never, I never quite. I never quite get across the point that I am not covering this as a journalist, I'm covering this as a.

Joanna Coles (3:54)

Writer and as a storyteller.

Michael Wolff (3:57)

This is about character. It's not about policy. It's not about process. When you think about Donald Trump, you have to think about this guy, this person who is doing things for a whole variety of reasons that really have nothing to do with politics. They have all together to do with him, what he wants, what satisfies him, what weird cravings he has, what inner. The inner demons are going on, what dominance. In the end, it's all about dominance and attention, but again, not about politics, about this very, very unique person, a person like this, who we have never seen in the modern history of American politics.

Joanna Coles (4:51)

And what I find so interesting is his ability to, by sheer dint and force of his character, to force the entire Republican Party to fall in behind him and in fact, to really begin to squeeze the American institutions which are supposed to protect democracy. Without wanting to sound too hand wringing about it, he has been able to squeeze them in a way that I think was unanticipated. And we have talked about this a lot on the Daily Beast podcast. And we decided to spin this off as a separate podcast because we have been overwhelmed by the response from. From viewers on YouTube, from listeners on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast, and the sheer number of comments which we're simply not able to address. But we want to try and address more of the themes they raise in Inside Trump's head, where we are going to focus entirely on what the hell is going on in that crazed place.

Michael Wolff (5:54)

Let me go back to that institutional point, the breaking of institutions that you just made. So in July 2017, I was sitting in the West Wing with Steve Bannon in Steve's office.

Joanna Coles (6:12)

So this is what, five, six months after Trump has been elected and assumed the president.

Michael Wolff (6:18)

Yes. And Bannon's view at that point was that this was that Donald Trump was in some sense, a tragic figure because the institutions in American life were so strong, so determined, so in a position to protect themselves. And Donald Trump was just one man against these institutions, and they were the deep state. And he would, Bannon thought, lose in this battle. He would lose. So the. And that was an interesting perspective, but the more interesting perspective which we are seeing now, is that he hasn't lost, actually, the institutions have lost.

Joanna Coles (7:09)

Well, and we as Americans arguably have lost, too. I mean, arguably, the world has lost. Right. I mean, I just had a friend staying from Europe, and she said everybody in Europe is now just hanging on Trump's every word, not only for the tariffs, but now because this week he's going to have his summit in Alaska with Vladimir Putin, and everybody in Europe is just trying to figure out what on earth is going to happen to Ukraine. But let's just go back to the moment where you're sitting in the White House. Steve Bannon has invited you in. You end up spending how many months there?

Michael Wolff (7:40)

About eight months.

Joanna Coles (7:42)

And you write the first book about Trump's presidency, which shows us the insanity of how he runs things.

Michael Wolff (7:51)

Right. I mean, that book's Fire and Fury, which I think did the. You know, up until that point, it was very hard to characterize this guy, partly because people, the media, journalists, continue to see him in a political context. There must be a method here. There must be cause and effect. He must have goals that he wants to achieve, policy goals, when in fact, none of that, I believe none of that is true. And I think it still haunts the way we. The way. The way the mainstream media has thinks about him and writes about him. But I think the truth is completely, completely different from that. I mean, at a polar opposite. He's not interested in policies, not interested in. In process. He's not interested in politics. He is interested in Donald Trump.

Joanna Coles (8:52)

Well, and to be fair to Donald Trump, whatever you think of him, he has made politics interesting to a much larger swathe of people. If you think about the way politics used to be reported, it was always through the lens of these fantastically erudite political reporters who sort of handed down almost insider information. It always felt done from the outside. And as a reader, as someone trying to understand how first in Britain and then in America, things were actually being run. I didn't feel, I really understood it. It didn't feel, it felt too technical. It felt dry. And suddenly we have a character who comes along and possibly you could argue that about Bill Clinton, but you come along, Donald Trump comes along and elbows everybody else out of the way.

Michael Wolff (9:46)

Well, I think it's more extreme than that. This has beeni mean, what is Donald Trump, the Donald Trump era been about? It's been about government by one person. No one else means anything.

Joanna Coles (10:02)

And no one is able to stand up to him.

Michael Wolff (10:04)

Well, no one can stand up to him because nobody. He just is. It's a process. Yeah. I mean, it's his dominance, but also the fact that he just is unconcerned about, about what anyone else says. He doesn't actually, in real time ever listen to what anyone else has said. I mean, I always think that it's a key thing that people overlook. He doesn't stop talking. This is not an exaggeration. When you are with him, he just goes on. There is never a moment when you can get, anyone can get a word in edgewise.

Joanna Coles (10:47)

Well, and there are also stark differences between how he's living in the White House now than when he was living there first time around. His daughter and son in law, Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, nowhere to be seen. His wife, Melania Trump, nowhere to be seen.

Michael Wolff (11:06)

Well, she was really. The truth is not really there in the first White House, but she's really not there now. Really not there now. Jared is still there.

Joanna Coles (11:16)

Well, he's not very visible.

Michael Wolff (11:17)

No, no, but Jared can. And that's what everyone in the White House will tell you can at any moment. Bigfoot, anybody.

Joanna Coles (11:27)

Okay, well, that seems.

Michael Wolff (11:28)

Yeah, no, no, yeah, no, we should spend some time on that. The Jared hidden hand, you know, Susie Wiles, the, the chief of staff. It's a Jared appointment. So let's, let's come back to that.

Joanna Coles (11:43)

All right, well, the point of this, the point of this podcast is that we're going to be doing special episodes around certain characters that are very important within the Trump world. And obviously we're going to be responding to the news, but this is going to be twice a week where we go deep, dark, spelunking into the head of Donald Trump.

Michael Wolff (12:07)

Yeah. And there. And focus on that. That is both metaphor and actual. What is in this? What motivates him? Why is he doing something? Why is this happening? Why is this moment different from another moment? And that is because he woke up this morning and, and had indigestion.

Joanna Coles (12:32)

In the night, whatever.

Michael Wolff (12:34)

But again, all about everything that happens, everything 100%, is because of the whims, desires, upset stomach of one man.

Joanna Coles (12:48)

The upset stomach of one man. That's just so unpleasant to think about. And just for those who don't know Michael's entire oeuvre, at least on Trump, you've written four best selling books. There is no one better to set up as a guide to this dark place that we're going to go. So let's start with this week. We wake up on Monday morning to a Trump suddenly staged press conference where he announces that Pam Bondi is basically going to take over the policing of D.C. because he claims that D.C. is now hell on earth. It's overrun by criminals. Partly to do with the fact that Big Balls, one of the younger members of Elon Musk's Doge team, has gotten beaten up. And actually, he looks very frightening. He's covered in blood. It looks scary. He's supposedly defending the honor of a young woman. They were attacked by a gang or he was attacked by a gang. What's this all about? What's it actually about?

Michael Wolff (13:50)

Let me go back about a week OR so or 10 days when Trump started to say to everyone who would listen, and everyone listens to Donald Trump, but in the, to staffers and on the phone calls, the relentless phone calls that he's constantly making, he said, I need a big thing. I need a big thing.

Joanna Coles (14:16)

I need a big thing.

Michael Wolff (14:17)

What's the big thing? And everyone understood that this was code for I need a distraction from Epstein. What's the thing that will move us beyond that? And there were a lot of suggestions. I mean, one, some of this got a little traction. There was the suggestion to make Mondani the New York, the New York mayoral candidate. Make him the villain. You know, he's the socialist left wing.

Joanna Coles (14:53)

Who came out from nowhere, who beat Andrew Cuomo in the Democratic primary for New York mayor.

Michael Wolff (14:59)

Right. And so let's make him the villain. He's a, he's a, you know, he's a real left winger. We'll, we'll go after him. And they tried that a bit, but.

Joanna Coles (15:08)

It also doesn't seem a big enough idea to distract from the MAGA bases fury over their refusal to release more of the Epstein forces.

Advertiser (15:17)

Absolutely.

Michael Wolff (15:17)

So it didn't get that traction. I mean, Epstein still goes on behind everything. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. That drumbeat. Then there was the suggestion, let's put troops into another city. Remember, they put troops into L. A. And that certainly commanded headlines for you know, that was a week.

Joanna Coles (15:42)

Yeah, a week.

Michael Wolff (15:43)

Right. And then Epstein overshadowed that. But obviously now they have taken that a step further and we now have troops in Washington, so we've got the.

Joanna Coles (15:56)

National Guard deployed and Pam Bondi's taken over the metropolitan district of policing.

Michael Wolff (16:01)

Right. And this is, this is a big deal and we should spend. Let's spend a moment on that. But in having this Trump going around saying, I need a big thing. I need a big thing, he came up with the big thing, which is always this way Trump's operates, which is to say, to ask a question and then answer it himself.

Joanna Coles (16:25)

But is that because he hasn't got people around him who can think as diabolically as he can about how to shift the narrative? Because as you're always reminding us, he is a television producer.

Michael Wolff (16:37)

Well, he is that. But even if there were such people, he would not be able to hear them because he doesn't listen. I mean, again, and I cannot stress this enough, there is never a moment in which anyone can interrupt. It doesn't matter who you are.

Joanna Coles (16:59)

He would do well on this podcast then, because all the comments last week are about how I interrupt you. All the comments. In fact, I began to think they were coming from an Albanian bot flag.

Michael Wolff (17:08)

Well, then we can put you into the White House and see how you do.

Joanna Coles (17:12)

All right, So I would like to see if I could even begin to interrupt him. I'm sure I couldn't.

Michael Wolff (17:17)

So that is. It doesn't. He is going to answer. We need a big thing. We need a big thing. What's a big thing? Do we know? A big thing. I need a big thing. And this is. And then he got to the big thing.

Joanna Coles (17:34)

Michael, just hold on a second. We have to take some messages.

Advertiser (17:39)

Better help. Online therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.

Advertiser (18:20)

Did you know adults 60+ lose more than $60 billion each year to financial exploitation? Greenlight's new Family Shield empowers you to monitor your accounts for suspicious activity, protect yourself with up to $1 million, identity theft coverage, and reassure loved ones that you're safe with location sharing and place alerts. Get peace of mind today@greenlight.com protect. That's greenlight.com/, protect.

Joanna Coles (18:48)

And we're back talking about what else? Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump.

Michael Wolff (18:52)

Let's do it.

Joanna Coles (18:53)

Well, he's got two big things this week because the other big thing that he got, which he announced last week, was he's meeting Putin for a summit in Alaska on Friday. So he's bookending the week with two big things.

Michael Wolff (19:04)

Right. Well, that is actually, that is what he got to. I'm going to have to do Ukraine. So he had been trying to avoid that, but I'm going to have to do it. Why am I going to have to do Ukraine? Because that's the give to maga.

Joanna Coles (19:22)

So wait a minute. When you say do Ukraine, what do you mean? I know he's been promising that he could solve this war.

Michael Wolff (19:28)

Well, that's what, that's what he, you know, I mean, I think do Ukraine means. Means give MAGA what it wants on Ukraine.

Joanna Coles (19:41)

And what does MAGA want on this? America to pull out.

Michael Wolff (19:44)

Yes.

Joanna Coles (19:45)

America not to be involved in foreign wars.

Michael Wolff (19:47)

America want to give. Yes. So in other words, he, in. He's going to sacrifice Ukraine for Epstein. Essentially.

Joanna Coles (19:58)

He's going to essentially sacrifice Ukraine. Essentially.

Michael Wolff (20:01)

This is, in his mind, a trade. It is the MAGA people who have pressed this Epstein issue constantly. I mean, they're the threat. It's not really the liberals who are the threat. It's the MAGA people. So he will trade out and he knows, he understands how exposed he is on Epstein. So he will trade out for trade. Maga, trade Epstein for Ukraine.

Joanna Coles (20:32)

And you're getting this from exclusive conversations you've had with people in the White House?

Michael Wolff (20:37)

Yes. I mean, and so this is what. Now, the interesting thing about people in the White House is that they really don't know what he's going to do. I mean, and so they spend as much time speculating about what's in his head as we are going to. Going to spend time doing exactly that. Okay, but this is, I mean, this is what their, their interpretation. Why are we doing this? Why, why is, you know, he was off Ukraine, trying to avoid that because it's intractable and, and trying to avoid going into a meeting just with Putin. So, I mean, up until now, or more recently, I mean, there's been several changes in this, but more recently it's, we'll only sit down with Putin if Zelenskyy is there. Now we've gotten rid of Zelenskyy, it's back to Trump and Putin together. And nobody in the White House can see this turning out so well for Ukraine.

Joanna Coles (21:50)

This is such an astonishing idea that because Donald Trump is paranoid about people exploring more about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, that he is prepared to sacrifice large chunks of landmass of Ukraine.

Michael Wolff (22:12)

Yes, no, exactly. I mean, this is. I mean, so again, the drumbeat, the Epstein drumbeat is real. It is unceasing, and it is threatening most of all to Donald Trump.

Joanna Coles (22:27)

And what is it? I mean, we ran tapes that you had of your interviews with Jeffrey Epstein when he'd invited you to write a biography of him before, I think anybody knew the extent of his underage sex ring. And he said he and Donald Trump were best friends for 10 years. What is at the heart of the relationship that Donald Trump, who has run roughshod through the last 10 years, what is it that he's so frightened about coming out? I mean, he said himself, I could stand on Fifth Avenue and shoot people, nobody would care. Now they seem to care. Now MAGA does seem to care. How has he played this wrong? And what is he so afraid of?

Michael Wolff (23:16)

Well, I mean, I think there are a couple of things. I mean, yes, he could stand and shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, but it is arguably worse that it turns out that he was joined at the hip for years and years and years with someone who we now understand to be the worst person on earth, the most diabolical. And that person. And you can build a portrait of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein as the same persons. Very. You know, they were interested in the same things.

Joanna Coles (23:56)

Girls, mysterious sources of income.

Michael Wolff (24:00)

Yes. You know, girls and money is basically what they were. What they were. They were interested in sex, money, models. Yeah. You know, these were. You know, and they were. They were proud of their lotioness and. And their misbehavior.

Joanna Coles (24:17)

Did you just say lotion?

Michael Wolff (24:19)

I did.

Joanna Coles (24:20)

Is that supposed to be looshness? I would say louche.

Michael Wolff (24:23)

You say Loesch, New Jersey. Losh.

Joanna Coles (24:25)

Okay. I've never heard of the word loesh. Okay, you say losh, I say louche.

Michael Wolff (24:31)

And so, I mean, I think that is. That is truly threatening. And there also is the business stuff. You know, behind everything that Trump has tried to obscure for many, many years is his business dealings, his tax dealings, his.

Joanna Coles (24:54)

Which we've still never seen, his tax returns.

Michael Wolff (24:56)

So I think all of that underlies Jeffrey Epstein. But then this other thing, too, is that the MAGA people, remember, the MAGA people have built Jeffrey Epstein up to represent the thing that they hate most. Which is? Which is this specter of a group of elites running the world and creating a world in which no one Else has agency, but these elites. So suddenly you have a thing where it turns out, and yes, I mean, Bill Clinton is connected to Epstein, a long list of people, but no one is as closely connected to Epstein, to Jeffrey Epstein as Donald Trump.

Joanna Coles (25:46)

Okay, so no one is as closely connected to Jeffrey Epstein as Donald Trump. I'm very curious about this idea that the Russians, and Putin in particular, have some form of kompromat on Donald Trump. And as we know and as we've talked about before on the podcast and you've mentioned, he sent in his golfing buddy and real estate buddy, Steve Witkoff to negotiate with Putin. He's had four meetings with the Russians. He won't take anybody else in. He insists on doing it on his own. So we have no idea what they actually talked about. Where does the conversation on Friday?

Michael Wolff (26:25)

Well, let me give some additional background there and let me go to Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon is an interesting. And I think I will continue to bring up Steve because Steve, when he is telling the truth, is incredibly insightful.

Joanna Coles (26:43)

What does that mean when he's telling the truth?

Michael Wolff (26:45)

Donald Trump? Well, when Steve in public will be the defender of Donald Trump and be the, you know, the ultimate MAGA guy. And in private he is, he eviscerates Donald Trump and tears him down and, and actually I think understands him. So. And I know the private Steve Bannon. Matter of fact, I know it so well that I wrote about it and then got him, got Steve cast out of the Trump circle and he has worked his way back into it. But let's go to what he has actually said because it's to me, invariably insightful and incredibly smart about Trump. And I was with Steve in Europe when Trump met Putin for a one on one meeting in Helsinki in 2018. I was withSteve. Bannon and I were in Europe together. So we witnessed the press conference that, that happened after that meeting. Now, I also know the background to that meeting is that Trump refused to prepare for it.

Joanna Coles (28:03)

Of course he did.

Michael Wolff (28:04)

Of course he did. And then refused to have anyone else in the meeting. So it was just Putin, Trump and the translators and they came out of that meeting. I think that meeting may have lasted an hour and a half, two hours, something like that. It came out of that meeting, I'm with Bannon and we're seeing this press conference and Bannon says, my God, he looks like a beaten dog. Meaning Trump.

Joanna Coles (28:33)

Right.

Michael Wolff (28:35)

And then Bannon went on to speculate, what must Putin have on Trump?

Joanna Coles (28:42)

Michael, we're just going to take a break. For some messages.

Advertiser (28:47)

BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.

Advertiser (29:28)

Did you know adults 60 plus lose more than $60 billion each year to financial exploitation? Greenlight's new Family Shield plan empowers you to monitor your accounts for suspicious activity, protect yourself with up to $1 million identity theft coverage, and reassure that you're safe with location sharing and place alerts. Get peace of mind today@greenlight.com protect. That's greenlight.com protect.

Joanna Coles (29:56)

And we're back with Michael Wolff discussing the Jeffrey Epstein scandal that will not leave the President alone.

Michael Wolff (30:03)

Although Steve's thing he was his favorite was that they had that Putin had Trump's college transcript, which again, have never.

Joanna Coles (30:14)

Been released, that we would love to.

Michael Wolff (30:15)

Read, which Steve said would be just the most Trump could almost get away with everything else, but the humiliation of his Ds at the Wharton School might have crushed.

Joanna Coles (30:33)

And I always like to remind people he went to Wharton as an undergraduate after doing the first couple of years of Fordham.

Michael Wolff (30:39)

Yes, and also worth pointing out that it's not Wharton School of Business, it's the undergraduate. So he did not have an MBA at any rate.

Joanna Coles (30:54)

So again, Bannon, who was one of his closest advisors, saw him coming out of the press conference with Putin and thought, Putin has something on him. He looks completely beaten up, like a beaten dog.

Michael Wolff (31:07)

That's quote unquote. My God, I can hear Bannon now saying he just could not believe it. And so anyway, so we're going to repeat that one on one, Putin and Trump in which they are going to decide the fate of Ukraine.

Joanna Coles (31:29)

And I predict that the Jeffrey Epstein story will then perhaps die down for a few days if he really does give away large chunks of Ukraine and Zelenskyy's not part of it, that will definitely supersede the Epstein narrative. But it feels like the Epstein narrative is always going to come back.

Michael Wolff (31:50)

Yeah. No, and it occurs to me, what does Putin know about Jeffrey Epstein?

Joanna Coles (31:58)

Inside Trump's Head? Michael Wolff, you've taken us there. We've got to escape somehow. Thank you very much. And more to come.

Michael Wolff (32:09)

Much more.

Joanna Coles (32:12)

Michael, how was that for you? Our inaugural episode of Inside Trump's Head.

Michael Wolff (32:17)

Was good for me. Joanna, how was it for you?

Joanna Coles (32:20)

Very fun. Very fun. And I think you've always said that at some point, almost everybody in America is thinking, why is he doing this?

Michael Wolff (32:30)

And I think that we can come as close to answering that question as it's possible. You know, I think because we proceed from the point of view that you have to get inside. And the mainstream media view of press to the glass doesn't work here.

Joanna Coles (32:54)

If you've been listening. Thank you. Please subscribe, share this podcast and leave us a comment. We want to do episodes that are based on comments, questions, some of your theories.

Michael Wolff (33:07)

This is important because what does everybody, at some point, many people at some point every day say, why is he doing this? Why is this happening? How did this happen? This is what we ought to come close. Certainly closer, I think, than anyone else has to answering those questions.

Joanna Coles (33:34)

All right, I will see you later in the week.

Michael Wolff (33:37)

You will.

Joanna Coles (33:38)

Thank you to our producers, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erssen and our editor, Jesse Millwood.

Advertiser (33:46)

Hey there. You hear that? Right? You don't? That's what it's like to order food for your workplace with EasyCater. No hold music while you wait to place your order. No tap tapping as you type in special dietary instructions or long, complicated searches for options in your budget. No crinkling of paper receipts.

Joanna Coles (34:07)

Just dang, these are some tasty sandwiches.

Advertiser (34:11)

EasyCater, the better way to order food for work. Order now@ezcator.com.

Michael Wolff (34:18)

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

F (34:26)

If you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time, listen up. This is Nikayla Matthews Akome, host of side Hustle Pro, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business.

Michael Wolff (34:38)

Business.

F (34:39)

Every week you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. If you can't run a side hustle, you can't run a business. They share real tips and so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice. Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance and the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check out side Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube.

Michael Wolff (35:16)

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.