Trump’s Ugly Scheme to Exploit RFK Jr.: Wolff

Summary

Inside Trump's Head — “Trump’s Ugly Scheme to Exploit RFK Jr.: Wolff”

Date: September 1, 2025
Hosts: Michael Wolff (Trump biographer), Joanna Coles (Daily Beast)
Topic: Trump’s appointment of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.) to oversee American public health, motivations behind it, the consequences for public health and politics, and the tangled personal and political history woven into the decision.

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Episode Overview

This urgent episode confronts the alarming dismantling of America’s public health system under Trump’s second administration, triggered by his appointment of RFK Jr. to lead public health policy. Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles dive into Trump’s motivations—political calculation overpowering public safety—and explore RFK Jr.'s checkered personal history and its intersection with MAGA anti-vaccine sentiment. The episode interrogates both the psychology and strategy in Trump’s "devil’s bargain" with RFK Jr., outlining the real-time consequences for U.S. governance and the future of the country.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Chaos of Trump's Decision Making

[01:46–03:37]

• The episode is framed by the “on fire” status of America’s public health system, with Trump, according to Wolff, thriving amidst the chaos.
• Trump appoints RFK Jr.—a man “with zero medical qualifications”—as head of CDC/public health, shocking experts as CDC leaders flee and advisory panels fall apart.
  • Quote (Michael Wolff, 02:32): “One of the most dangerous [powers in the country], and also potentially one of Trump’s successors.”

2. Why Appoint RFK Jr.? Trump’s Calculated Bargain

[04:28–11:55]

• Wolff argues that appointing an incompetent is unsurprising—Trump historically packs his administration with unqualified loyalists.
  • Quote (Wolff, 04:28): “I don’t think we should express surprise that Donald Trump would put any incompetent in any job... that seems to be a requirement.”
• RFK Jr.’s path: From “wastrel life” (drug abuse, womanizing) and political exile to being encouraged by Steve Bannon and Roger Stone to shake up the Democratic primary, then running as an independent.
  • RFK Jr.'s popularity as an anti-vax figure splits both parties, but post-Biden, his voters shift Republican, making him a GOP problem.

3. The Vice Presidential Dance and Bargain

[08:05–11:39]

• Trump is deeply attracted to the Kennedy name, even fantasizing about “Trump-Kennedy 2024.”
• RFK Jr. rebuffs a VP offer from Trump. As a solution, the Trump team offers him leadership of U.S. public health in exchange for dropping out and neutralizing his political threat.
  • Quote (Wolff, 09:13): “Yes. Then, then in fact, at some point, RFK Jr. turns him down on this and Trump is very disappointed.”
• The anti-vax movement, pivotal to the MAGA base, creates vulnerability for Trump—RFK Jr. provides a shield for Trump’s own ambiguous vaccine legacy (he championed Operation Warp Speed).

4. The Rise of the Anti-Vax Movement Within MAGA

[11:55–14:36]

• The anti-vax position is foundational to the current MAGA movement—signaling anti-expert, anti-establishment identity.
  • Quote (Wolff, 12:07): “MAGA people are against expertise…To be anti-Vax is to be anti-government, anti-establishment, and anti-expertise.”
• The logic-defying nature of anti-vax beliefs is explored as both hosts agree on the societal dangers.

5. The Deal Closes: RFK Jr. Gets the Job

[15:00–17:24]

• Trump is weak with the anti-vax base; RFK Jr. solves the problem by becoming the face of administration public health.
  • Quote (Wolff, 17:16): “The weakness on this issue, the vax issue... they solved this problem by just giving RFK Jr. the health portfolio of the United States of America.”
• The benefits are twofold for Trump: RFK Jr. is neutralized as a political threat and provides credibility among anti-vax MAGA voters.

6. RFK Jr.'s Troubled Past and Damaging Present

[18:19–20:13]

• Wolff describes RFK Jr.’s notorious voice, attributing it to drug abuse (“crackpipe voice”), and a life “decades of addiction.”
• His hypocrisy: RFK Jr. moves to restrict life-saving overdose interventions even as a long-time addict.

7. The Political Calculation Trumps Public Health

[20:13–22:05]

• Political survival outweighs public safety for Trump—“better the health system be at risk than his support in the MAGA base be at risk,” says Wolff.
• Despite the danger to public health, MAGA loyalty is prioritized.

8. RFK Jr.'s Psychology, Brokenness, and Path to Power

[22:19–32:36]

• Wolff paints a psychological portrait: RFK Jr. is embittered by perceived lost entitlement, now empowered as a leading MAGA figure, likely to run for president in 2028.
  • Quote (Wolff, 22:19): “He is, and I certainly have no doubt in my mind, running for president in 2028.”
• Anecdotes from Wolff’s decades-long acquaintance: chronic womanizing, drug use, troubled sleep, and heavy dependence on legacy and myth of the Kennedy name.
  • Quote (Wolff, 30:36): “He doesn’t survive it in one piece. He is a broken guy. And that is not the surprising thing. The surprising thing is that the broken guy has now such power and authority and meaning in contemporary America.”

9. Dismantling Public Health, Irreversible Consequences

[34:44–34:55]

• The hosts voice concern that once public health institutions like the CDC are unraveled, they may not be restorable.
  • Quote (Coles, 34:44): “Once you unravel something like the CDC... it’s very difficult to rebuild these things and give them any authority.”

10. The Enablers, Opportunists, and Danger Rankings

[35:16–37:46]

• Discussion of those, like Nicole Shanahan, who financially bolstered RFK Jr.’s campaign for expedient reasons.
• Coles and Wolff list others who are considered dangerous in the Trump administration, debating whether any are as perilous as RFK Jr. in his current role.

11. The Kennedy Family's Public Rejection and Further Isolation

[38:41–40:28]

• Caroline Kennedy and others publicly denounce RFK Jr., even recounting disturbing childhood stories; the family is united in antipathy.
  • Quote (Coles, 39:57): “[He] used to make cocktails in a blender for his snakes by putting in live animals... an altogether bad guy. I mean it’s rare to see someone’s family come out so unified against, against someone.”

12. Shakespearean Tragedy and the Next Phase

[41:49–End]

• The hosts frame RFK Jr. as a late-in-life power-seeker willing to betray all family legacy, and America as “hurtling back to medieval times.”
• Trump’s ultimate discomfort with RFK Jr. is predicted—everyone “eventually becomes too much for Donald Trump.” Meanwhile, RFK Jr. is poised to be a viable 2028 contender.
  • Quote (Wolff, 41:27): “The devil’s bargain...abandon any element of his family’s history, tradition, beliefs, moral code, anything... a raw, complete power grab.”
  • Quote (Coles, 42:00): “Yet another Shakespearean character in the court of Donald Trump.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|----------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:32 | Michael Wolff | "One of the most dangerous [powers in the country], and also potentially one of Trump's successors." | | 04:28 | Michael Wolff | "I don’t think we should express surprise that Donald Trump would put any incompetent in any job... that seems to be a requirement." | | 09:13 | Michael Wolff | "Yes. Then, then in fact, at some point, RFK Jr. turns him down [for VP] and Trump is very disappointed." | | 12:07 | Wolff | "MAGA people are against expertise…To be anti-Vax is to be anti-government, anti-establishment, and anti-expertise." | | 17:16 | Wolff | "The weakness on this issue, the vax issue... they solved this problem by just giving RFK Jr the health portfolio of the United States of America." | | 20:13 | Wolff | "Better the health system be at risk than his support in the MAGA base be at risk." | | 22:19 | Wolff | "He is, and I certainly have no doubt in my mind, running for president in 2028." | | 30:36 | Wolff | "He doesn’t survive it in one piece. He is a broken guy. And that is not the surprising thing. The surprising thing is that the broken guy has now such power and authority and meaning in contemporary America." | | 34:44 | Coles | "Once you unravel something like the CDC... it’s very difficult to rebuild these things and give them any authority." | | 39:57 | Coles | "[He] used to make cocktails in a blender for his snakes by putting in live animals... an altogether bad guy." | | 41:27 | Wolff | "The devil’s bargain... abandon any element of his family’s history, tradition, beliefs, moral code, anything... a raw, complete power grab."| | 42:00 | Coles | "Yet another Shakespearean character in the court of Donald Trump." |

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:35: Beginning of main discussion, framing the urgency.
• 02:30: RFK Jr. as dangerous and a possible successor.
• 07:00: Story of RFK Jr.'s political journey.
• 09:08: Trump’s infatuation with “Trump, Kennedy 2024.”
• 11:39: Wolff on Trump’s COVID vaccine legacy and MAGA exposure.
• 12:07: MAGA’s anti-expert/anti-vax culture.
• 17:16: The solution—RFK Jr. given the health portfolio.
• 22:19: Wolff on RFK Jr.’s ambitions for 2028.
• 27:22: Wolff’s personal recollections of RFK Jr.’s self-destruction.
• 34:44: Irreparability of public health infrastructure.
• 39:50: Kennedy family’s unified rejection of RFK Jr.

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Analysis & Concluding Tone

Throughout, Wolff and Coles maintain a tone of incredulity, dark humor, and historical gravity. They draw on decades of direct experience and reporting, characterizing Trump’s moves as self-interested, chaotic, and perilous for the nation. RFK Jr. is painted as both an embodiment of hobbled privilege and a willing tool of the new anti-institutional right. The implications, they warn, are larger than another political farce—they endanger tens of millions and the legitimacy of American governance itself.

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Listen for:

• Political calculations overriding public safety
• Portraits of entitlement, resentment, and brokenness driving American politics
• Dire warnings about the fragility and necessity of expert institutions
• Prediction of RFK Jr. as a 2028 presidential candidate, symbolizing a further shift in the GOP and America

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“It’s a raw, complete power grab... a life that no one would want. The surprising thing is that the broken guy has now such power and authority and meaning in contemporary America.” —Michael Wolff [41:27]

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For more, subscribe to Inside Trump’s Head wherever you get your podcasts, and keep up with the personalities shaping America’s future—for better or worse.

Transcript

[Robert Mays]

Did I talk too much?

[Michael Wolff]

Can I just let it go? I wish I would stop.

[Robert Mays]

Thank you so much.

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[Michael Wolff]

ACAST powers the World's best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Robert Mays]

Hey everyone, I'm Robert Mays, host of the Athletic Football show and I'm excited to welcome you to the 2025 season and everything new we've got going at Tafs. First and foremost, get ready for a whole new look. We're coming to you from the Athletic Football show studio in Chicago. Get the full experience by checking us out on our YouTube channel. Second, whether you watch on YouTube or listen to us on your podcast platform of choice, you'll hear a new voice. Dave Hellman joins Derek Klassen and myself as the third host on the show, bringing a different perspective to the conversation. Finally, Dane Brugler is back with year round NFL draft coverage with Building the Beast. No matter what type of NFL fan you are, there's something for you on the Athletic Football Show. Join us Monday Through Friday on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Derek Klassen]

So, Michael, by rights, we should both be at the beach.

[Michael Wolff]

And yet I. I am at the beach.

[Derek Klassen]

Oh, you are. Well, you're at the beach, but you're in your. You're in your office at the beach.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, I walk out to the beach, yes.

[Derek Klassen]

All right, you should be on the beach is my point. But what's going on at the CDC and the dismantling of America's public health apparatus seems so urgent and so important that we decided we would do an emergency episode of Inside Trump's Head to find out what's going on inside Trump's Head and where he is about RFK.

[Michael Wolff]

Jr. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's just been an extraordinary 24 hours and we are seeing this, the emergence of RFK Junior as one of the most significant powers in the country and.

[Derek Klassen]

One of the most dangerous powers in the country.

[Michael Wolff]

One of the most dangerous and also.

[Derek Klassen]

Potentially one of Trump's successors.

[Michael Wolff]

And I also see this as a kind of Trump is in a bit of a squeeze here. So this is what's going on in Trump's mind, I do definitely see Trump is thinking, God, I'm stuck with this, with this nutcase. And I'm stuck with this nutcase because. Because, you know, the, the vaxxers are nuts. And I got a. I'm, I'm, I'm making my accommodation. RFK Jr covers me with the vaxxers.

[Derek Klassen]

So Trump has had a very busy week inside his head. It must be very kind of frantic because he's gone from Putin to Gillen and the Ghislaine tapes and being squeezed by the notion of giving her a pardon to now what appears to be the collapse of America's public health system.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that's the kind of chaos which actually he's used to, and I think that he likes and that he thrives on.

[Derek Klassen]

Okay, Michael, let's do it. Let's take a journey together arm in arm inside Trump's head. Michael. I mean, America's public health apparatus appears to be on fire. The arsonist is RFK Jr. I just can't understand why Donald Trump put him, a man with zero medical qualifications, into this job. And he seems to be sowing his vaccine skepticism. We've got the head of the CDC leaving. We've got scientific experts leaving. We've got expert panels collapsing. Why did Donald Trump put RFK Jr. In this job?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't think we should express surprise that Donald Trump would put any incompetent in any job. I mean, the administration is filled with them, actually. That seems to be a requirement.

[Derek Klassen]

Fair. But this seems really dangerous, a really dangerous.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, they all seem.

[Derek Klassen]

They're all dangerous.

[Michael Wolff]

Dangerous. Yeah. I mean. I mean, this seems more personally dangerous because it really relates to the health of the people, to our own health or the health of the people, people in our families, or. I mean, it is an immediate.

[Derek Klassen]

Well, and you've got a resurgence of measles. I mean, it's really frightening that he's totally happening so quickly.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, we can't even begin to imagine the implications of this. And were there to be another pandemic or the beginnings of such a thing, who would be responsible? I mean, RFK Jr. I mean, this is crazy. So. But I can say I can outline specifically how RFK Jr got the job. And I think this is relevant to things well beyond this. So you will recall, although we seem to recall nothing whatsoever of the. Of whatever has happened in the recent past. But RFK Jr. K Jr. After a wastrel life of drug abuse, womanizing, and domestic upheaval, and during this life, by the Way, you know, he's very bitter about the fact that, that his bad behavior has prevented him from the power and the status he believed he was entitled to by his family name. And it had. I mean, he was basically in exile. You know, he couldn't run for the Senate, which he contemplated at various points. He couldn't have the career he thought he was entitled to. But then Donald Trump comes along and it turns out that bad behavior isn't, is not at all a precondition to public office. At the age of 70, RFK Jr. And why is he still Jr. Is really something.

[Derek Klassen]

It's extraordinary, isn't it? Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

So RFK Jr. Decides he's going to run for president. And he runs in the, and by the way, he is encouraged to do this by Steve Bannon and Roger Stone because the belief it is he'll run for in the Democratic primary and that. And he will behe will upset the Democrats, which he does. But then lo and behold, he decides when he's not going to get this the Democratic nomination. Of course he's not.

[Derek Klassen]

He.

[Michael Wolff]

He decides he's going to run as an independent. That's a candidacy which basically draws from Democrats and Republicans equally, partly because of the Kennedy name, partly because of the. Of. He's an anti vax. Partly because of, because he's just not one of. He's neither, he's neither Joe Biden nor Donald Trump.

[Derek Klassen]

Well, and he has the advantage of being establishment because of his name, but actually anti establishment.

[Michael Wolff]

All of those. Yes. I mean, he's, he's a classic figure of a marginal candidate and he, but, but he's, he, he draws, you know, in some, in some, by some estimates in the, in the high teens. But he draws equally from Democrats as well as Republicans. Then Kamala Harris replaces Joe Biden and the Democrats, the Kennedy Democrats go back to, to the Democratic Party, leaving Kennedy with only Republicans, effectively. So the Republicans have to move him out. They have to neutralize him in some way. And by the way, in the background, you have Donald Trump kind of having an orgasm about the Kennedy name. He goes around saying, how does this sound to you? Trump, Kennedy 2024. Trump, Kennedy 2024.

[Derek Klassen]

So was he actually thinking that RFK Jr. Could be his vice president?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Yes. Then, then in fact, at some point, RFK Jr turns him down on this and Trump is, is, is, is very disappointed. But.

[Derek Klassen]

Whoa. So he actually asks RFK Jr. And RFK Jr. Turns him down.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. So then they have to, but they still have this problem. The, you know, Republicans for For Kennedy and as they move forward to the convention, and in fact, I am at the convention and I run into RFK Jr. In the, in the hotel there. I think, well, you know, what are you doing here? You know, because it still seemed Trump and Kennedy, that, that certainly did not seem in anybody's lexicon a reasonable combination. But, but as soon as I saw him, I thought, oh, okay, yeah, all right. I kind of get this now.

[Derek Klassen]

And you, you've known him for a long time, haven't you? I want to come back to your story of your personal experience in a moment.

[Michael Wolff]

So anyway, so he said, so, so they have a, they have, they have a sit down and there is, and it's very clear if you drop out, RFK Jr. If you drop out of the race will make you the, you know, we'll put you in charge of the, of the, you know, of the, you know, make you the secretary in charge of, in charge of, of all public health policy. Now even at that time, you know, they're always offering. The Trump people are always Trump and the Trump people are always offering jobs which they don't deliver on. So it still seemed that this was ridiculous. Okay, they have to do this, but some way they'll weasel out of this. But there's this other aspect of this which is that Trump is very exposed on the vax issue. And the vax issue turns out to be one of those fundamental MAGA things. And Trump, who's a germaphobe, plus he is almost singularly responsible for the efficient creation of a COVID vaccine.

[Derek Klassen]

That is his operation. Warp speed.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, that is his accomplishment. And it is not an accomplishment that is going to win him any MAGA favors. He's exposed there. He is, when you get down to it, a pro vaxxer.

[Derek Klassen]

So, Michael, let me just understand. Where did the anti vaxxer theme, how did it creep into maga? Why is it one of their central pillars?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, it's almost impossible to explain because it seems to defy logic. But I think that's the, that's its appeal. The logic is, seems to rest with the experts. You're against the experts. MAGA people are against expertise. You know, in the, this, the vax thing was creeping for a long time. Its relationship to autism. It, by the way, it has no relationship to autism. But in the, in this new mythology which RFK Jr is part of, I mean, he is, I mean, he becomes a leading anti vaxxer. But when I say leading, he's only, he's leading in this marginal movement. And then with COVID it suddenly becomes a much more significant movement. And it's. The perception is that the government is forcing you to do something. So to be anti Vax is to be anti government and anti establishment and anti expertise and somehow more pure than all of the other people who are corrupt.

[Derek Klassen]

So it's a sort of partly libertarian stance, but it's also extraordinary because Americans ability to get the vaccines out as fast as it did was literally the envy of every nation on earth. It allowed Americans to get people back to work faster. And it's literally, as you say, probably the one thing that people can unite on around Trump's future first administration. That this was his singular achievement.

[Michael Wolff]

Absolutely. No. And I don't really know. I mean, I think this is worth much, much, much more time to try to understand how this happened, because it's beyond, at this point, reasonable comprehension. Vaccines work. They're not only.

[Derek Klassen]

They work, they're one of the great miracles.

[Michael Wolff]

They trans. They transformed the human experience.

[Derek Klassen]

Right. There's a reason that we live now beyond the age of 40. I mean, it's just belief.

[Michael Wolff]

And RFK Jr. Is central to this. The Kennedy name becomes central to the creation and building this movement. And I think we'll return to this. How did RFK Jr get to this? Well, the answer is that he is a nutball of the first rank, but let's come back to that.

[Derek Klassen]

All right, so let's pick up. You run into him in the hotel at the rnc. The Republicans are offering him Health and Human services because at that point, they're offering all jobs to anybody. It feels expedient to do. So nobody is tied to it. How does he actually, given his views, clinch the. Clinch the perception.

[Michael Wolff]

There is an understanding here. And remember, we're still. We're in a phase of. When Trump does not yet look inevitable. Quite the opposite. Kamala, at that moment in time, actually begins to look more likely than not. He, Trump, has a problem with the base. He is askew on this issue. Vax, the MAGA base, is firmly, absolutely, unequivocally anti Vax. Trump is a waffler at best. And if you take a closer look, he's a guy who favors. He's, you know, he's a.

[Derek Klassen]

Well, he's a guy who has vaccines, right? His kids have had vaccines, his grandchildren have had vaccines. That's what's so disingenuous about completely.

[Michael Wolff]

And he's responsible, you know, for the. For the. For the COVID vaccine. So. So he's exposed there. RFK Jr. Then becomes the, becomes his shield, his protection. So they've accomplished, they've accomplished an enormous amount here. They've taken. RFK is no longer in a threat, drawing Republican voters. Plus, he's the guy who gives Trump credibility on the vax issue. So it's, it's win, win. And they remarkably. And right up until, until he got the job, I thought, no, they're going to, they're going to, even the Trump people are going to figure out a way around this, but he gets the job. And internally, there is a very real awareness of the weakness on this issue, the vax issue. And then in understanding that they solved this problem by just giving RFK Jr the health portfolio of the United States of America.

[Derek Klassen]

Michael, hold just for a second while we take these messages.

[Robert Mays]

Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go? Thank you so much.

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Remember to ask for Botox Cosmetic by name. To see for yourself and learn more, visit botoxcosmetic.com that's botoxcosmetic.com and I'm back with Michael Wolff, and we're both inside Trump's head. It's just an astonishing story, and it's made even odder, not only because RFK has that very strange voice, but also he openly talked about having a brain worm.

[Michael Wolff]

Let me stop. Stop there. Because that's what they spread this idea about a, an illness that he might have had. It's a crackpipe voice. You know, when you, when you smoke crack, it burns your vocal cords.

[Derek Klassen]

So that's why he has that voice.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, RFK Jr. Has a, you know, essentially behind him a long, long decades of addiction.

[Derek Klassen]

All right, so Kurt Anderson talked about being at Harvard. He wrote a piece in the Atlantic in the run up to the election saying that when he was at Harvard, he'd wanted to try cocaine. Who did he go to? The local drug dealer. RFK Jr. Yeah, no, no.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, this is, I mean, drugs are a mainstay of RFK Jr. S life. He's an addict. Let's, there's no, there's no, no issue issue on that.

[Derek Klassen]

And yet one of the things he's doing is bringing in restrictions on the drug that stops people when they're having overdose them from dying.

[Michael Wolff]

Let's go back to. I think Trump's motivations are clear. He's got a problem on that side. RFK Jr solves the problem. Yes, the health system in the United States is, is, is at risk. But, you know, better the health system be at risk than his support in the MAGA base be at risk.

[Derek Klassen]

But Michael, his support in the MAGA base is at risk if their children are no longer having vaccines. Vaccines.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I, but that is logically true from your point of view or our point of point of view, but it is apparently not true from the MAGA point of view. The fact that their health might be at issue. I mean, these are people who, who did not take the vaccine during COVID and many people died. That didn't seem to change anybody's mind. So I can't, I mean, who can explain that? Neither you nor I at this point, because it is so otherworldly. I mean, let's just assume this is, you know, the reason Trump has to tolerate RFK Jr. And I think you can read between the lines here. I'm dismissing the head of the cdc. You know, I would say Trump is showing, I mean, hasn't come out in direct support of RFK on this, and he's probably a little squeamish about it. But again, RFK Jr represents that vax position that he has to subscribe to.

[Derek Klassen]

So we have a man who had a brain worm, openly talked about having a worm eat part of his brain, running the Health and Human Services Ministry. He's pushing his anti vax theories, which completely unfounded medically or with no scientific proof whatsoever, onto the nation. Where does this, where does this go next? Has Trump actually got the benefit of, of RFK Jr. At this point? Can he afford to get rid of him?

[Michael Wolff]

I think it might be problematic to get rid of him at this point. Certainly. I know voices inside the White House, you know, continue to be very worried about this, this particular issue.

[Derek Klassen]

And they're worried because of the health of people?

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, no, no, no. They're, they're, they're, they're, they're worried on a, on a political side and they're worried not, not that we're getting rid of that vaccine, vaccines we're getting. They're worried that Donald Trump is weak on the anti vax issue. So therefore RFK Jr is their protection against, against Trump's weakness on that issue. But, you know, then the, the, the other thing, and I think, and I think we should, we should see this really very, very clearly, is, is RFK Jr. Embittered for most of his life about being deprived of his rightful shot at status and power because of his name, believes that that shot has been returned to him? He is, and I certainly have no doubt in my mind running for president in 2028. And let's realize, the more, the more he is antagonistic to the health establishment, the more that solidifies his MAGA base. The more you have a solid MAGA base, the more credible you will be as a Republican candidate.

[Derek Klassen]

It all makes sense what you say. And yet what can people sitting around Donald Trump's cabinet table be thinking when they hear him talk?

[Michael Wolff]

These are all people whose children, they think he's nuts. I mean, RFK Jr. They think he's nuts. I mean, they have said to me many times, yeah, well, he's nuts.

[Derek Klassen]

And what about what, I mean, what does Susie Wiles think? I'm pretty sure Susie Wiles's children are vaccinated.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, they think they think he's nuts, but they think he serves this very precise political purpose.

[Derek Klassen]

And do they think if they get rid of him that he sets up a new political base and can then take Donald Trump on?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, I think that they probably don't go that far. But what they do, they, where they go is that their problem, their VAX problem is solved by not doing anything. At this point, you let RFK do, do his, do his thing. And you know, and then there's this Kennedy thing. Trump is very, the Kennedy name, the association with Kennedy very, you know, that that is also the Kennedy name protects RFK Jr even though all of the Kennedys detest him.

[Derek Klassen]

Tell us about your own experience of traveling with him when you.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, I've known, I mean, RFK Jr. And I are the same age. We know and have always known many of the same people. And so at any rate, when I was a young, report in my late 20s or mid 20s covering the Teddy Kennedy's 1980 Kennedy campaign, primary campaign for the Democratic nomination for president. And I did this by primarily spending a lot of time with RFK Jr. Now, RFK Jr. At that moment was running, was running the state of Alabama for his uncle There was a primary in Alabama. He was. He was running it. And he had this kind of weirdly romantic idea that he would build his own political career in the south and that he really, even then, was thinking about a run for establishing. Moving to Alabama, establishing himself there, instead of seeing himself as an eventual governor of Alabama. And it was some kind of weird liberal fantasy of the new south, which he would spearhead. And this went to the mythology about his father and his father being able to speak to sort of a whole new group of people. People. The. You know, Bobby Kennedy went to Appalachia at. At. At one point. I mean, this is. This is. You know, and he's already. Now his. His father, Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy has been. Has been dead at this point for, you know, 15, 30, 68.

[Derek Klassen]

He died 12.

[Michael Wolff]

So 12 years. RFK Jr. Who I was with, you know, on a constant basis for the better part of a month at this point in time. And he spends every day, almost as though every waking moment reading and re. Reading Arthur Schlesinger Jr. S book about his father. So this is kind of weird, you know, I mean, kind of, you know, you didn't exactly know what was going on here, but something pretty heavy was going on. He's always got this book in his hands, except for the times in which he disappears. Wherever you would go, there would always be on the campaign trail some woman who he would then strike up a flirtatious conversation with and then disappear. This was like on a daily. Sometimes more than daily basis. Plus, then there were the drugs on a constant basis.

[Derek Klassen]

So when you say disappear, do you mean they were disappearing to do something together?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, exactly. And that became a kind of standard thing. You would go, okay, yeah. Everybody would roll their eyes.

[Derek Klassen]

Not necessarily unusual on a political campaign trail, but he was womanizing and he was taking drugs while he was campaigning for.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no. And the womanizing was random women multiple times a day. I mean, he was a Kennedy. They would be, you know, and, you know, and he was. Yeah, I'm trying. I was going to say the word charismatic, but then trying not to use that because I think it's overused. And he was a Kennedy.

[Derek Klassen]

So his name walked in the door before he did. He was already famous. He was tragic because his father had been assassinated.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, exactly. And he took effective advantage of that. And then there were the drugs constantly. He was, I mean, clearly out of it. Clearly. Then falling asleep, clearly in a nod, clearly, again, another one of those things. And everybody would just go, okay, you know, what can you do? And the nature of that kind of campaign is that you would go to a lot of. You would be put up at a lot of the homes of supporters on the campaign trail. So there were many instances in which we had to share a room, you know, sleep in the same room overnight. And I vividly remember his nightmares. I mean, they must be terrifying to him. They were certainly terrifying to me to. For him to wake up yelling like. Like this.

[Derek Klassen]

And what was he. What was he yelling with?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. Yeah, just night nightmares he was obviously having. And, you know, I mean, not. This is not beyond explanation. I mean, if you, you know, if.

[Derek Klassen]

Your father's been assassinated like that, and your uncle's been assassinated and your next uncle is running for president and you take massive amounts of drugs.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly, exactly. And then your life, the life of a Kennedy, to have to be all of those history imposes these expectations, which are insuperable. Plus, you have, you know, so many siblings. You know, so many siblings. Not enough attention, not enough love. Oh, my God. What a. What? The life that no one would want. A life that really. I think it would be sort of difficult to survive in one piece. And that's the point. He doesn't survive it in one piece. He is a broken guy. And that is not the surprising thing. The surprising thing is that the broken guy has now such power and authority and meaning in contemporary America.

[Derek Klassen]

And he's listened to. I mean, he strikes me as a man who for his entire life has wanted to be heard. He's wanted people to pay attention to him, to give him authority, and now suddenly he finds that, and he's got nothing of any substance. Substance to say.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't think that that's true, Joanna. It's of keen substance, and I mean, it's just negative substance. You know, he is. He is doing. I mean, he is not just a leader of a bureaucracy or a cog in the bureaucracy. I mean, he is. He is. He is destroying the. The bureaucracy. And that will. Bethat. Is. That will be to his political credit and it will be to our. To the, you know, cost. The health of the country and in ways that we can't even imagine.

[Derek Klassen]

It's hard not to think of China and Russia just rubbing their hands at this and having some part in amplifying the anti vax story online.

[Michael Wolff]

This is. I mean, we're in so much unchartered territory in so many areas of this second Trump administration.

[Derek Klassen]

And we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors.

[Robert Mays]

Did I talk too much?

[Michael Wolff]

Can I just let it go.

[Robert Mays]

I wish I would stop thinking so much.

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[Derek Klassen]

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Derek Klassen]

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Derek Klassen]

Visit botoxcosmetic.com that's botoxcosmetic.com and we're back talking with Michael Wolf. And we're back inside Trump's head, figuring out what on earth he thinks about RFK Jr. Is there a tipping point here, Michael, where he becomes too much even for Donald Trump?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that is always the case. Everyone ultimately becomes too much for Donald Trump. And yes, I think we can expect that will probably happen here. I think the danger is by that time he will have become this, one of the most significant MAGA personalities.

[Derek Klassen]

And also once you unravel something like the CDC or the vaccination advisory committee, it's very difficult to rebuild these things and give them any authority.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I think that no one at this point can look ahead with any clarity on what's going to happen in with the public health system in this country, which has been one of the most successful anywhere in history.

[Derek Klassen]

Can we just have a moment, too, to reflect on the way that he was financed during his campaign because at one point he was running out of money. He has dinner with a friend of his who has a girlfriend called Nicole Shanahan, who has been briefly married to Sarah Sergey Brin, one of the founders of Google and in the process of her divorce picks up around $800 million worth of Google stock. And then her boyfriend suggests to RFK Jr. Across the dinner table, this is when he's still running for president. You should have Nicole as your vice president. And RFK immediately offers her the job. And she comes with a loaded wallet and is able to then finance the next few months of his campaign.

[Michael Wolff]

And where is she now?

[Derek Klassen]

Well, she's clearly not been rewarded by him. She's also a libertarian and is nowhere to be seen as far as we know briefly, she was trying to do a recall against Karen Bass in California, but she seems to have disappeared at this point.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that that was obviously a ranked, cynical and expedient move on RFK jr's part.

[Derek Klassen]

We ran a profile of her in the Daily Beast called Is this the most dangerous Woman in America? Because she was trying to finance him to be President. But in fact, as a member of Trump's Cabinet, it's hard to think of a more dangerous man in America right now, apart from maybe the president.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I mean, I could argue who's who among a group of incredibly dangerous people. Who is more dangerous. I don't know, but they're all, maybe Pete.

[Derek Klassen]

Hey, maybe J.D. vance. Maybe Marco Rubio, maybe Linda McMahon.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly.

[Derek Klassen]

Maybe Christine Ohm.

[Michael Wolff]

Bondi. You forget Bondi.

[Derek Klassen]

Pam Bondi. The Pam Bondi who Trump couldn't say how pretty she was in their Cabinet meeting because his, his career would be over.

[Michael Wolff]

So this is, you know, I mean, this, I can't say who is the most dangerous among these dangerous people, but I can say that on this day, yesterday and Today, clearly RFK Jr has risen to the top of the, of the, of the danger thermometer.

[Derek Klassen]

So, Michael, we know what's inside Trump's head this week. It's RFK Jr. Who's elbowed Ghislaine Maxwell out of the way, and Jeffrey Epstein is off the front pages.

[Michael Wolff]

There you go now. But I do, I do have it in my, in my head that Trump, Trump is, this is, I have Trump's head in my head that, that, that Trump is not entirely quiet with this whole business. And so it will be interesting to see how his next statement about RFK Jr. And I would anticipate that that would come in the next hours and the next day on Truth Social. So how firm is he in his support? We, we, we await.

[Derek Klassen]

Michael, this story has wiped Jeffrey Epstein off the front pages. Did RFK Jr know Jeffrey Epstein? Did they have a relationship?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, I think there were, there were a couple of trips that, that he made. And yeah, they, they did know each other. And, and I can actually tell you the Jeffrey Epstein's view of RFK Jr. And that view was, oh, my God, he's nuts. And it means we should, there is almost everyone who interacts with RFK Jr. Comes away with a similar story. I mean, a story of feeling that something is egregiously wrong here. Here, off, broken, not in the, even in the wide spectrum of normal. Something is profoundly amiss in this person's character and emotional framework.

[Derek Klassen]

Well, and one thinks of his cousin Caroline Kennedy, who rarely says anything publicly, coming out with video in the run up to the election, imploring people not to take him seriously, reminding people that when she was growing up he had this dark presence that he used to make cocktails in a blender for his snakes by putting in live animals and just creating smoothies for his snakes and just saying he was an altogether bad guy. I mean it's rare to see someone's family come out so unified against, against someone.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I, I mean in this, in this instance, you know, I mean what he has, what he has done, I mean life has not gone the way he, he thought it should for him. That again, and I'll use the word entitled that it that he was the, the power and the status he was entitled to, the career he was entitled to. It didn't go that way. And suddenly he sees a window which he can walk through and he might recover this at his a kind of late stage, late in life, last gasp for power. And the devil's bargain that he has to make here is he has to abandon any element of his family's history, tradition, beliefs, moral code, anything. It is just a raw, complete power grab. I can do this. I can have what I thought I was entitled to if I go against everything that otherwise would have created this so called entitlement.

[Derek Klassen]

And as they circle as Trump's inner circle, circle Trump for running for 2028, he emerges as a currently a viable candidate, which is just remarkable. Absolutely remarkable. Yet another Shakespearean character in the court of Donald Trump. Okay, Michael, we'll be tracking this. It's hard not to feel that America is hurtling back to medieval times when people applied leeches to men with swollen ankles. So perhaps underneath his pants the president has got leeches personally applied by RFK Jr. So there you have it. RFK Jr. Who Donald Trump knows is nuts, but nevertheless is in charge of one of the most important American departments of government and is clearly positioning himself to run for 2028. If you have been thank you for joining us on this holiday weekend. Please share this episode with your friends, with your contacts book, with all those people you were at school and college with and started your first jobs with and have run out of things to talk to them about. Share this episode with them. Leave us a comment on YouTube and don't forget to subscribe to Inside Trumpshead on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, and of course on YouTube, where you can leave us a comment. And don't forget, as our first lady would have us every day, you must be Beast. And thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Ersen and our editor, Jesse Millwood.

[Michael Wolff]

Acast powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

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[Michael Wolff]

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