White House Raging at Trump Health Crisis: Wolff

Summary

Inside Trump’s Head – White House Raging at Trump Health Crisis: Wolff
Host: Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles (The Daily Beast)
Date: August 27, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the ongoing obsession with Donald Trump’s health in the White House, rampant speculation about his mortality and “inexhaustible” nature, and the explosive release of the Ghislaine Maxwell deposition (or “proffer”)—now the summer’s true-page-turning thriller. Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles analyze how the Maxwell saga intersects directly with Trump: her testimony, its potential impact, and the swirling question of whether a pardon is in the works. Along the way, the pair dissect the role of unreliable narrators, money trails, and the complex web of power, privilege, and scandal.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Health: Speculation and Denial

Timestamps: 02:30–03:50

• White House Annoyance: The team surrounding Trump is irritated by constant media focus on Trump’s health.
• Energy and Mortality: “What they see is Donald Trump always moving ahead. A man who doesn’t stop. Inexhaustible.” – Michael Wolff (02:48)
• Advisors reportedly believe that “one day he will just go over” (03:15–03:19), rather than decline gradually, revealing a blend of denial and fatalism.
• Joanna’s take: Notes visible changes (the bruise, makeup), calling out the White House's cropping of official photos.

“They actually don’t accept he will stop at one point.” – Michael Wolff (03:25)

---

2. Ghislaine Maxwell's Deposition: The “Gift” to Trump

Timestamps: 04:05–14:42

• Release of the Proffer: Coles calls the Maxwell deposition “the book…already referring to it as a thriller that you want to read.” (01:33)

• Maxwell, in her deposition, exonerates Trump, saying she “never saw him do anything inappropriate” and praises his presidential achievement.

• Strategic Testimony:

  • “She totally delivered. I might have to do a bit of reading.” – Joanna Coles (07:59)
  • Wolff characterizes this testimony as a “gift” or “the grift” (02:24), noting its transactional implications.

• Potential Pardon:

  • Trump is reportedly soliciting advice about Maxwell, with people close to him advocating a pardon, seeing her deposition as a quid pro quo (07:13-07:51).
  • “She absolutely delivered.” – Michael Wolff (07:52)

---

3. The Wall Street Journal, Birthday Letters & Legal Strategy

Timestamps: 09:56–13:14

• Maxwell’s deposition refutes allegations that Trump sent Epstein a 50th birthday greeting, which had triggered a $10 billion defamation suit against Rupert Murdoch.
• Joanna reads dramatically from the transcript, emphasizing Maxwell’s careful distancing, “I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming president now. And I like him and have always liked him…that is the sum and the substance of my entire relationship with him.” (08:41)

“This is a gift, incredible gift, which now I’m sure leaves the Wall Street Journal and even Rupert Murdoch quaking.” – Michael Wolff (12:35)

• Congressional committees have subpoenaed the “birthday book,” so the story may not be resolved quickly.

---

4. The Nature of Depositions & The Problem of Unreliable Narrators

Timestamps: 13:14–15:17

• Wolff points out that depositions are inherently one-sided and often misrepresented by the media.
• Maxwell (and others in Epstein’s orbit) are “unreliable narrators” manipulating the only public record (13:31–14:42).
• Coles notes the odd deference of “the number two in the Justice Department” (Todd Blanche) towards a convicted sex trafficker.

“Depositions are by nature an incredibly one-sided account…we have these untrustworthy versions of this whole story, compounded again and again and again.” – Michael Wolff (13:31)

---

5. Money, Maxwell, and Murky Financial Dealings

Timestamps: 16:39–21:33

• Joanna spotlights Maxwell’s evasions about the $30 million received from Epstein, versus her earlier claim to have earned up to $250K a year.
• Wolff dives into theories that some of those funds may have originated with Maxwell’s father, Robert Maxwell, funneled through Epstein as her benefactor after his fraud/fall from grace.

“[Her father] looted, let me repeat it, looted…his company’s pension fund to–” – Michael Wolff (19:14)

---

6. Ghostwritten Memoirs, More Unreliable Narratives

Timestamps: 21:47–24:49

• The hosts discuss Virginia Giuffre as a “problematic” centerpiece of the Epstein legend (and now with a posthumous memoir triggering controversy): “It’s a very important point…and certainly Ghislaine takes this on…” – Michael Wolff (22:13)
• Giuffre’s stories underpin the major allegations of Epstein’s circle providing girls to powerful men, but with key inconsistencies that have made her unreliable to prosecutors.

“In essence, much of the story, much of the Epstein story rests on her…” – Michael Wolff (23:18)

---

7. Sex, Massages, and Power: Maxwell’s Account

Timestamps: 24:49–29:08

• Maxwell’s testimony surprisingly claims neither she nor Epstein could have sex due to health conditions, with the “biggest sex scandal of the age” centered on two people who “can’t, according to this account, have sex.”
• Epstein’s obsessions with massages, testosterone use, and the blurred lines between medical and sexual behavior become a key subject.
• Coles ponders if Trump shares the “massage obsession,” with Wolff recounting an “uncomfortable” story about Trump’s unwillingness to be touched—even during microphone setups on The Apprentice.

“He doesn’t seem like a person you would touch.” – Michael Wolff (29:25)

---

8. Maxwell Family, Internet Fortunes, and Offbeat Tangents

Timestamps: 32:09–36:06

• Joanna and Michael discuss the Maxwell sisters, their failed attempt at internet riches with the “Magellan” search engine, and how banker mistrust of ostentatious displays killed a deal.
• This illustrates the intertwined nature of privilege, scandal, and fleeting wealth.

---

9. Final Thoughts & Cliffhangers

Timestamps: 36:21–39:49

• Joanna recaps Maxwell’s two exonerations of Trump:
  1. No inappropriate observation of Trump with Epstein or his circle.
  2. No knowledge or recollection of a “birthday book” letter from Trump.
• Thursday’s episode cliffhanger: Will Maxwell get a pardon? “Pardon culture” and Trump’s prolific use of pardons will be the next focus.
• Joanna also pokes fun at Trump’s “makeup camouflage” and the White House’s challenges with his visible bruises.

“He does his own makeup.” – Michael Wolff (39:28)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s stamina and legend:
  “He is from another age…People would say, what happened? Oh, he dropped dead. And in my mind, I always had that walking along the street, boom, gone.” – Michael Wolff (03:50)
• On the Maxwell deposition:
  “This is the summer thriller. This is better than any Michael Connelly book you will read… Dickensian novel of a tragic female figure…” – Joanna Coles (05:58)
• On depositions as unreliable:
  “Depositions are by nature an incredibly one-sided account.” – Michael Wolff (13:31)
• On Trump, touch, and discomfort:
  “He unbuckled and unzipped his pants and the entire set…would as one recoil at this moment.” – Michael Wolff (30:06)
• On the transactional nature of exoneration:
  “She has clearly understands the advantage in agreeing with Donald Trump.” – Michael Wolff (14:42)

---

Key Segment Timestamps

| Topic/Segment | Start Time | |-----------------------------------------------|------------| | Trump’s health rumors & White House denial | 02:30 | | Ghislaine Maxwell transcript release | 04:05 | | The “gift” to Trump—exoneration & flattery | 07:13 | | WSJ birthday letter and legal maneuvering | 09:56 | | The problem with depositions/unreliable tales | 13:14 | | Maxwell’s $30M and financial webs | 16:39 | | Virginia Giuffre memoir debate | 21:47 | | Massages, sex accusations and health | 24:49 | | Trump’s aversion to touch (Apprentice story) | 29:25 | | Maxwell family business tangents | 32:09 | | Maxwell’s “gifts” to Trump recapped | 36:21 | | Preview/tease for next episode: pardons | 37:44 |

---

Tone & Language

• Candor, wit, and irreverence (typical of both hosts).
• Deep-dive, gossipy but informed, self-aware and meta.
• A mix of “true crime” style, political intrigue, and media commentary.

---

For Next Time

• Will Trump pardon Ghislaine Maxwell?
• Deeper dive into “pardon culture.”
• Listener questions and new set design.

---

End of content summary.

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. This area was sort of a shark tank for predators. Not just the Green River Killer, but.

[Joanna Coles]

Others in who Took Misty Copsey? I'm investigating the disappearance of a 14 year old girl who vanished from the Washington State Fair in 1992.

[Michael Wolff]

How?

[Joanna Coles]

Why?

[Michael Wolff]

She was so sweet and so what happened to her?

[Joanna Coles]

Listen to who Took Misty Copsey? Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Wolff]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles and this is.

[Michael Wolff]

You're gonna make me do this again?

[Joanna Coles]

I am gonna make you do it again.

[Michael Wolff]

Michael Wolfe, Inside Trump's Head Where Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

Trump's chronicler Michael Wolff, who's written not one, not two, but four books on Donald Trump and me from the Daily Beast. Go to a very deep, dark place, damp place too. Inside Trump's Head. I can't believe it. I've been out of the country for five days and I've missed John Bolton's house being raided four days after he was on the Daily Beast podcast. Trump's jihad against the Fed and in particular black women in trying to fire Lisa Cook. And I've missed a new bruise on his hand and the terrible makeup camouflage he's been using to hide it. And most importantly, the release of the Ghislaine Maxwell transcript, which is the most fantastic reading of the summer. Put down your John Grisham, your Michael Connelly, your Colleen Hoover. This is the book or this is the transcript, already referring it to as a thriller that you want to read.

[Michael Wolff]

It's actually called a proffer.

[Joanna Coles]

A proffer. I know what even is a proffer. They keep saying this is the proffer.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, it's a proffer. You're offering something, and in fact, I mean, you're offering information, but in fact, in this, she is offering something more, something specifically to Donald Trump. It should be called not the proffer or the deposition, but perhaps the gift.

[Joanna Coles]

The gift. All right, well, we have no time.

[Michael Wolff]

To waste or the grift, of course.

[Joanna Coles]

Michael, what are you hearing about Donald Trump's health? I did notice the extra bruise and the photograph that the White House put off, the official photograph they put out with him and the South Korean premier and they cut him off at the ankle so we couldn't see his ankle spilling.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, the only thing that I'm hearing about his health is everyone is irritated that people are focusing on his health. I mean, the people around him because. And actually this makes Some sense. What they see is Donald Trump always moving ahead. A man who doesn't stop. Inexhaustible.

[Joanna Coles]

Inexhaustible. Well, he feels inexhaustible, but he doesn't.

[Michael Wolff]

On the other hand, they acknowledge one day he will just go over.

[Joanna Coles]

They say that. Yeah, how interesting. That's their perspective, that he will just keel over.

[Michael Wolff]

He's going to have no. The idea that he will fade, that he will become sick, that he will be mortal in that way that we all are. They actually don't accept he will stop at one point.

[Joanna Coles]

I see that. I see that because he does have still an enormous amount of energy. As we talked in our last time together. He has inexhaustible ability to speak.

[Michael Wolff]

And he is that, you know, because he is from another age. I mean, when I grew up, people would say, would say, what happened? Oh, he dropped dead. And in my mind, I always had that walking along the street, boom, gone.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, interestingly, that didn't happen to Jeffrey Epstein. There is so much in the Ghislaine Maxwell transcript. I read it cover to cover on a flight on the way back, frantically sort of Jon Stewart, like, making comments all over it. But one of the things that I was most interested by, pruriently, I will say, is the fact that Ghislaine Maxwell, unreliable narrator, says that Jeffrey Epstein couldn't really have sex. So this is a sex story with two people, two things.

[Michael Wolff]

Before we go there. Exactly. I think we should go to the top line on this, which is what she delivered for Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, that's why they were there. So Todd Blanche, number two in the Justice Department, Trump's former lawyer, former personal lawyer, actually, you might say continuing personal lawyer in his job as the number two in the Justice Department, rushes down to the prison where Glenn Maxwell is serving 20 years, rushes down to speak to a convicted sex offender.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, sex trafficker, 20 years. Sex trafficking.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, please. And I think that this is one of the things that you come away from reading this transcript. And I just want to say, just a pet peeve, that many people are reporting on this transcript on this deposition. But the truth is, journalists, my colleagues, Your colleagues report on depositions and they never read them.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I did read this. I did read it.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, actually, it's incredibly compelling. I would recommend everyone go read this.

[Joanna Coles]

This is the summer thriller. This is better than any Michael Connelly book you will read. It's better that it's like a Dickensian novel of a tragic female figure at the center of it. Let's Think about this. Whose father was a massive con man.

[Michael Wolff]

Poor little rich. It's a poor little rich girl story. And the worst thing, you cannot actually imagine how bad things are that happen to this person. She may deserve them. But again and again, there's one point she talks about. She was on suicide watch for two years, and they wake her up every 15 minutes. You can't wait.

[Joanna Coles]

This thing. We have really read this thing, but also just the echoes of it, that her father dies in suspicious circumstances because he's a con man. Her boyfriend then dies in suspicious circumstances, which she has, you know, which she has a theory on why he died, which we'll go into. Anyway, I interrupted you, but go on.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, I think.

[Joanna Coles]

Can I just point out we also have exciting new mugs.

[Michael Wolff]

Extremely exciting.

[Joanna Coles]

We've had lots of comments on YouTube about our design for Trump's head, which was by Rebecca Tewlis, who's one of our designers at the Beast. Good job, Rebecca. Thank you. We love it on the mug.

[Michael Wolff]

Thank you. Okay, so the top line, what she delivers for Trump. And let me just say that the other thing I'm hearing from the White House this weekend is that Trump has been calling around to people and saying, what should I do about Maxwell? Now, to interpret that means. That means he knows what he should do and probably has already decided what to do. So when people are asked that question, they respond, you should definitely give her a pardon now.

[Joanna Coles]

Wow.

[Michael Wolff]

Now let's get to why he should give her a pardon, because she delivered. She absolutely delivered.

[Joanna Coles]

She totally delivered. I might have to do a bit of reading.

[Michael Wolff]

She went down.

[Joanna Coles]

I might do a dramatic reenactment.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay. I'm counting on it.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

So she did basically three things for Trump. I mean, she said, I never saw him do anything inappropriate. Never, never. But even more importantly, then she went on to say, well, he's such a great guy.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And amazing journey that he got to be president.

[Michael Wolff]

Everything. I mean, just ayou know, this is a monument, an American monument, which is exactly what Trump wants.

[Joanna Coles]

But even Trump's friends don't think he's never done anything inappropriate. I would like to stop you there and do a quick, dramatic reenactment. We do have similar accents, not entirely the same. And I noticed that she was doing that thing that people do where they drop their voice and they speak slowly. So I'm going to do that for affect here. So Todd Blanche says, what did you observe as far as President Trump and his relationship with you or Mr. Epstein Gillan? Well, I just want to Say, for my relationship with President Trump, relationship's a big word. But I want to say that I met him, or I believe I may have because of my father in the 90s. And I just want to say I admire his extraordinary achievement in becoming president now. And I like him and have always liked him. And so that is the sum and the substance of my entire relationship with him.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, as I say, she delivered.

[Joanna Coles]

She delivered.

[Michael Wolff]

And she also delivers something else and delivered something else that actually might. Betrump likes a compliment. And he likes flattery, of course. But if that also can put money in his pocket, that is. That's the ultimate.

[Joanna Coles]

I think I know what you're talking about.

[Michael Wolff]

And she says that. Okay, brief recap. This all began Ghislaine's presence at this moment. Because the Wall Street Journal publishes a birthday greeting, Trump has theoretically sent Jeffrey Epstein on the occasion of his 50th birthday in 1993. As soon as the Wall Street Journal published this story, two things happened. First thing, Donald Trump sued Rupert Murdoch, who owns the Wall Street Journal and the Wall Street Journal, saying this was completely untrue.

[Joanna Coles]

For $10 billion, right?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, $10 billion, of course. And then the second thing that happened is that, is that within the White House, they understood this to be a leak from the Maxwell camp, a shot across the bow. And Trump's lawyer, the number two in the Justice Department, Todd Blanche, rushes down to Florida. She says, now, I never saw a birthday greeting from Donald Trump. And just remember, she was the one who organized this birthday book.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, hold please. Dramatic reading. A dramatic reenactment. So Ghislaine talks about, I'm just going to do a little bit, just to set it up. So my mum did a birthday book for my father at his 60th. And when I Epstein, would talk about his 50th, and he said, I don't know what I'm going to do.

[Michael Wolff]

I just want to interrupt to say that they did release the audio from Ghislaine, but Joanna is much better.

[Joanna Coles]

Thank you. Thank you. I did listen to some of the audio, and I said, well, there are some nice things. There are nice things. My mum did this book for my dad. And he said, I love that idea. Classic man. No idea what to do for his birthday. So she calls people to get them. And then tod Blanche because. And this is very early on in the interview process, too, for anybody interested. It's page 179. This comes up in the first day, right? So they get straight to it. He says, do you do you think the articles. Do you remember seeing that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York? And she goes, oh, in my discovery, President Trump. There was nothing from President Trump. I'm just going to repeat that. There was nothing from President Trump. So that's my dramatic.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, no, I mean, this is a gift, incredible gift, which now I'm sure leaves the Wall Street Journal and even Rupert Murdoch quaking a bit. I mean, they have now lost a pillar of their defense.

[Joanna Coles]

Except that the oversight committee led by James Comer have subpoenaed the birthday book. So won't it be in there?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I'm sure it. Oh, good. That's a good point. So good point.

[Joanna Coles]

Thank you. I'll take it. I'll take it.

[Michael Wolff]

So it may seem to get this.

[Joanna Coles]

Yes, right. This should be required reading for every law student too, because a deposition, basically people can say what they like. Right. She has an incredible drive by here about the paternity of a child, which we should also come to.

[Michael Wolff]

We will. And again, this issue of depositions in this entire Epstein story, and one of the reasons it is there is no resolution, quite the opposite in any aspect of this story, is because it is a story all by depositions. Depositions are by nature an incredibly one sided account. As a matter of fact, they can be basically anything. And you are, the media is protected from publishing anything that is said in a deposition. So we have these untrustworthy versions of this whole story compounded again and again and again. And obviously, obviously Ghislaine is now adding to this. This is her deposition entirely one sided, her defense. I mean, the only thing that's two sided is that she has clearly understands the advantage in agreeing with Donald Trump.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And there are all sorts of clues. I mean, I was just incredibly interested by the money thing. So on the first day, Todd, I mean, first. And then also we have the number two in the Justice Department who is unbelievably obsequious to someone who has been convicted for 20 years for sex trafficking. I mean, he's basically like, no, no, we don't have to. Don't worry. I mean, she's so vague about death.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, this is a total tea party, you know, I mean, you can see them. They're, you know, they're. They are enjoying their acquaintance with each other.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it's just crazy.

[Michael Wolff]

And hold on for a word from our sponsors.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, Michael, that was so smooth. This summer, Instacart is bringing back your favorites from 1999 with prices from 1999. That means 90s prices on juice pouches that ought to be respected. 90s prices on box Mac and cheese, and 90s prices on ham, cheese and cracker lunches. Enjoy all those throwbacks and more at throwback prices only through Instacart.

[Michael Wolff]

$4.72.

[Joanna Coles]

Maximum discount per $10 of eligible items. Limit one offer per order.

[Michael Wolff]

Expires September 5th while supplies last.

[Joanna Coles]

Discount based on CPI comparison.

[Michael Wolff]

Hey, listeners, meet Russell.

[Joanna Coles]

Hey.

[Michael Wolff]

Russell just launched a fitness app and he needed to get the word out to busy professionals looking to stay fit. So I turned to Acast. I used their smart recommendations feature to easily find shows that talk about health and fitness. Booking sponsorships through their was a breeze. And just like that, my app was in their ears during their morning run. Sounds like a smart move, Russell. How's business looking now? Sweat is pouring and so are the installs. Spread the word about your business with podcast ads on Acast. Start [e-mail] advertise.

[Joanna Coles]

And we're back discussing what else. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. I'm just going to go back to this. I'm going to do another dramatic reading, this time by Todd Blanche, okay? Where he's obviously got hauled up by one of the members of his team because he says to her, so the day before, the first day, he's got her to say that she earned somewhere between 25,000 and 250,000 a year working for Epstein, which he lets go. And then he says, okay, so I want to talk to you about, we talked a little bit yesterday about the financial part of the, of your relationship with Mr. Epstein kind of being on his payroll, starting at 25,000 and ending up at 250,000. As you know from your trial, there's banking information that shows a ton of money being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years, and I think totaling something like $30 million, something like this. What's the. Why was the money sent to you? And she says, well, I believe I don't have a full recollection. I'm not even sure, I mean, I ever saw what they accused me of. But my belief is the money also contained money that was for a helicopter that I never owned and was never mine. I mean, what are you talking about? And then it goes on in incredible detail about the fact she can't remember, okay?

[Michael Wolff]

And here's an important part. She denies that her father ever knew Jeffrey Epstein. Now, this is pivotal because there is reason to believe, very good reason to believe, that Jeffrey Epstein and Her father were engaged together in, let's nicely call them, business dealings. And again, her father is a long story from nothing. He builds a multi billion, something near a billion dollar media empire, right?

[Joanna Coles]

He owns the British Daily Mirror tabloid newspaper on Fleet Street. He owns Pergamon Press, he owns Macmillan at one point.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. He goes on to buy the Daily News in New York.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

He is a major, a major presence. A major media presence in the UK On a par with at that time, Rupert Murdoch.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. They were very much rivals. And Rupert was on the right, Maxwell was on the left.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And then Maxwell's empire comes crashing down because it turns out he has looted. Looted, let me repeat it, looted.

[Joanna Coles]

Stolen.

[Michael Wolff]

Stolen, yes, his company's pension fund to.

[Joanna Coles]

The tune of half a billion pounds, which back when this was 30 years ago was an extraordinary amount of money. It's still a large sum of money, but it was back then. It was one of the biggest ever.

[Michael Wolff]

35 years ago. 35 years ago, yeah. And then he dies under mysterious circumstances off the back of his, his yacht.

[Joanna Coles]

Called the Ghislaine, the Lady Ghislaine.

[Michael Wolff]

Ah, yes. So at any rate, she denies they never knew each other, but there is reason to believe that they certainly knew each other and that in fact his part of his money, and remember, the end was coming. He saw the end, everybody see the money, everybody knew it was coming and whatever money he had left would be taken from him.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

The theory is that an amount of. He took an amount of this money and offloaded it to Jeffrey Epstein.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

So therefore the $30 million, the money that went from, from Jeffrey Epstein to Ghislaine Maxwell, the theory is, let's emphasize.

[Joanna Coles]

The theory here, that Maxwell gave Epstein some money to look after and he.

[Michael Wolff]

Returned this in the form of, well, a house. He bought her a house, a townhouse in New York, for instance. But $30 million would, that would explain a significant part of the $30 million.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. And he, Todd, Blanche says, oh, there was, you know, for example, you got 5 million in 2002. I mean, the obfuscating. And also the idea that he would ask you what you got paid by Jeffrey Epstein? And she would say, oh, up to 250,000 and forget to mention the 30 million is remarkable.

[Michael Wolff]

Remarkable. So, and again, and this goes to the nature of depositions, but it also goes to the nature of this story that unreliable narrators are at every point in this story.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and then there's another unreliable narrator here in Virginia Giuffre. Right. Who's got her memoir Coming out, another thing I missed, the memoir. Her publishers announced Knopf that they would be bringing out her memoir in November called I think Nobody's Girl. And now her family are saying this isn't actually the book that she would want to have told people.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. Well, it's very confusing whose memoir this is. Virginia Giuffre is dead. She committed suicide.

[Joanna Coles]

Another tragic figure in the center of all this.

[Michael Wolff]

Completely tragic. And she has a. A collaborator or ghostwriter. This seems to become her book and her relationship with the publisher, the New York publisher, Knopf, which is interesting in itself, one of the historically the most estimable publishers in New York. And her family is saying, no, no, no, no. That's not the story she wanted to do tell. So again, we have this. Okay, who's reliable here? But in addition, it's a very important point. And certainly Ghislaine takes this on in her account, although Virginia Giuffre's name is redacted.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. But it's not where she's talking about it.

[Michael Wolff]

It's very clear who is here. And Virginia Giuffre, a fascinating figure in this because in essence, much of the story, much of the Epstein story rests on her, which is to say the idea, the central idea, that Jeffrey Epstein was supplying girls to very powerful men and probably blackmailing them. I mean, this comes out. This is from her account, really nobody else. And she has always been a problematic figure in this. I mean, she isn't used any of the trials. She is not used. Her testimony is not used because it's, you know, it's been troubling to a lot of people. And there's been gaps in it, you know, of her claiming. Claiming Al and Tipper Gore were on the plane and on the island, which apparently is utterly untrue. And then her own personal problems. I mean, that's, you know, again. And it's not to say that we know what's right or not here. We just know that she is yet another person in the telling of this tale, in which you have reason to ask a lot of questions.

[Joanna Coles]

One of the things that's also interesting about the book is the massage culture that she talks about and the sort of.

[Michael Wolff]

The deposition.

[Joanna Coles]

Sorry, sorry, I'm treating it as if it's a book. The deposition. The deposition is her discussing Jeffrey Epstein's obsession with getting massages, his testosterone treatment.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, even Stephanie before go. Because the one thing that jumped out on me is that she says is. She says both that. That Jeffrey Epstein has a heart condition, so he can't have sex.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And then she adds. And she has a condition. Condition unspecified. So she can't have sex. So in the biggest sex scandal of the age, the two central protagonists can't, according to this account, have sex.

[Joanna Coles]

So I wish we had a magical expert here, because she does talk about the fact that once Jeffrey started taking Jeffrey once Epstein. As if I know him. That she does talk about Epstein taking testosterone, which she thinks leads to him needing more and more massages. And at his peak, he was having three massages a day, leading to three happy endings. I think we can say, and just.

[Michael Wolff]

Let me interject there, that throughout this deposition, she calls him Epstein. So this is a person who she knew well for. Well, almost 25 years. Theoretically, she called him by his first name during that time. Right.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, she's clearly trying to distance herself. Right. But if you have a heart problem and you're having three happy endings a day, isn't the danger point the happy ending isn't the climax, the bit where the heart's under most stress?

[Michael Wolff]

Are you asking me.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I'm just asking you as a guy, whether or not you know this stuff, because I don't understand what the difference is between having a happy ending and having sex in terms of the pressure on the heart.

[Michael Wolff]

Again, I hope this is a rhetorical question, because I.

[Joanna Coles]

Because what you don't know. Okay, so we need to investigate. Neither of them could have sex.

[Michael Wolff]

Which reminds me, there is the testosterone thing, in which she says he starts taking testosterone at some point and his personality changes.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. He becomes mean, she says, and in.

[Michael Wolff]

Her account, basically pre testosterone. He had a lot of massages, often from men or older women. They are not sexual in nature. Is the implication of what she's saying.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and she also says that she was always looking for massage because she. She was a dangerous sports addict. And if she hadn't had lots of massages, she claimed she would have been lame.

[Michael Wolff]

No. Well, this whole idea of massages being at the center of your life, that. That is what life is for. To the quest for a massage, a better and better massage. And she spends a lot of time talking about that. That was her job to recruit new masseuses.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Because Epstein wanted novelty, which was one of her arguments.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, he wanted novelty, but I assume he wanted a. This was a connoisseur's quest, also for the perfect massage.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and I do think that massage therapy has become one of those things that people who are obsessed with longevity are obsessed with by. Right. Often I know several people who you know, they like to play tennis every day and then they have an hour's massage.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, yes, I know none of those people, so. But I have heard tell. And these are all. I mean, this is a preoccupation of the rich, obviously.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah. Because massages are expensive.

[Michael Wolff]

They're expensive, and you have to have the time and I suppose you have to have a place to do it. I mean, and it is this whole. It's this whole part of this spa culture. It is. It's White Lotus.

[Joanna Coles]

It's White Lotus. Is Donald Trump a massage person?

[Michael Wolff]

Does Donald Trump get massages? Well, that is. There is a question. That question might unlock a lot of this. This mystery.

[Joanna Coles]

He doesn't look like he gets massage. He never talks about getting massage surgery.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he doesn't seem like a person you would touch. As a matter of fact, I have an interesting story here. There was a person who worked on the Apprentice for many years, the sound man who Trump came to be very dependent on and so dependent on that he. He paid for the tuition of the sound man's kid to go to private school in New York.

[Joanna Coles]

Wow.

[Michael Wolff]

The same private school where all of the Trump executives went.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Didn't Alan Weissel talked about that, too?

[Michael Wolff]

But this person described it to me. First thing, the disconcerting thing that when, you know, if you know anything about, you know, when you're wiring someone putting a mic up, you usually come up through the bottom of a shirt. But Trump would always as the. As this person approached to put the mic in, he would unbuckle and unzip his pants and the entire set seems unnecessary. Set of the Apprentice would as one recoil at this moment.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And then this sound man had to have to go in where other men.

[Joanna Coles]

But this wasn't a sexual thing. This was just an odd thing. Hold on one second while we just take these messages. Botox cosmetic. Adobotulinum toxinae. FDA approved for over 20 years. So talk to your specialist to see if Botox Cosmetic is right for you.

[Michael Wolff]

For full prescribing information, including boxed warning, visit botoxcosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300.

[Joanna Coles]

Remember to ask for Botox Cosmetic by name. To see for yourself and learn more, visit botoxcosmetic.com that's botoxcosmetic.com.

[Michael Wolff]

Hey, listeners, meet Russell.

[Joanna Coles]

Hey.

[Michael Wolff]

Russell just launched a fitness app and he needed to get the word out to busy professionals looking to stay fit. So I turned to acast. I used their smart recommendations feature to easily find Shows that talk about health and fitness. Booking sponsorships through their platform was a breeze. And just like that, my app was in their ears during their morning run. Sounds like a smart move. Russell, how's business looking now? Sweat is pouring and so are the installs. Spread the word about your business with podcast ads on Acast. Start [e-mail] advertise.

[Joanna Coles]

And we're back discussing what else.

[Michael Wolff]

Ghislaine Maxwell is inside Donald Trump's head right now. Yeah, no, just. Just an odd thing.

[Joanna Coles]

That is so bizarre. That is such a bizarre story. All right, can I go back to Ghislaine Maxwell saying that she actually became a banker? Because again, I don't think that's something that anybody knew. Did you know she had a banking license?

[Michael Wolff]

How could she? What does that even mean, to have a banking license?

[Joanna Coles]

Also, here's another example of something that you guys wouldn't have known about. I became a banker. I got my Series 63, Series 67 banking license and became a broker for like a new. And then because I was day trading, uh oh, alert. Everything I had day traded with through an account. I think I was more lucky than smart, but I made quite a lot of money doing that. I'm sure you did, Ghislaine. I'm sure you did. And Todd Blanche says, well, like what? Like what? And she says that she or he says, you know, were you doing Apple when nobody liked Apple? And then she says that Jeffrey was constantly lending her money for business escapades, one of which was, I think, for example, there were two gull wing Mercedes that they did with Mercedes and Aston Martin. You can look it up. That's nice. To the number two in the Justice Department. You can look it up. They had doors that would come up like this. There were only a very limited number when they were made. So I knew that we could buy those and flip them right. Within 24 hours, for example. What is she talking about?

[Michael Wolff]

Let me just a little digression. God knows how I end up in these places that I end up. But I was once almost in business with the Maxwell sisters. Ghislaine's sisters.

[Joanna Coles]

She has twin sisters, right? Isabelle, one of them lives in.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, Isabel and Christine.

[Joanna Coles]

And Christine is the one that lives in Texas, near where Ghislaine has been moved.

[Michael Wolff]

They were. This was in the early years of the Internet business. And they had a search engine company, a precursor to. To Google, certainly, and to even Yahoo. And it was called Magellan, Right.

[Joanna Coles]

After the Explorer. Good name actually, for a search and.

[Michael Wolff]

I also was in the Internet business, recounted in my book Burn Rate.

[Joanna Coles]

I remember.

[Michael Wolff]

And this actually chapter with the Maxwell sisters is recounted because it was a moment in which, in which I was the various people working with me. The bankers promised that I was about to become fathomlessly rich.

[Joanna Coles]

Here you are stuck as a writer. Here you are stuck on the Daily Beast podcast.

[Michael Wolff]

But the deal was going to be a merger with this company, Magellan, and then we were all going public and it was happy days would be here forever. Except, and this was all these Internet days. All businesses were very precarious. Nobody was making money. It was, you know, everybody was trying to just hold on to the next, the next event. But the banker. So we're having this meeting and one of the bankers leaves the meeting, goes outside to the parking lot and sees that all of the Magellan executives and the Maxwell sisters and their husbands are driving incredibly high end vehicles, which then promptly kills the deal. We're not doing business with them, said the bankers.

[Joanna Coles]

So that's why you're not a multibillionaire is.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, there are many reasons, but that is one.

[Joanna Coles]

All right, so that's.

[Michael Wolff]

Blame it on the Maxwells.

[Joanna Coles]

Blame it on the Maxwells. I mean, we've had quite a lot today, haven't we? And I do urge people, I really urge people to go and read this transcript because it is, as we've said, it's better than any novel. And it's actually, it's so much more interesting than any modern novel I can think of, actually.

[Michael Wolff]

No, well, you know, modern novels are about interior and interior life and domestic life or emotional life. And this is external. This is people out in the world trying to trick the world, trying to survive the world, trying to survive their own bad behavior in the world.

[Joanna Coles]

Yeah, it really is. So I take your point that the point of the transcript is that Ghislaine Maxwell has given, given Donald Trump what he needed. One, she never saw him doing anything inappropriate with anybody to do with Epstein, and two, she has no recollection of soliciting the letter in the birthday book from Donald Trump.

[Michael Wolff]

Never saw the letter. From her point of view, it doesn't. The implication is it doesn't exist that Donald Trump is correct, that the Wall Street, Rupert Murdoch and the Wall Street Journal have made up this letter.

[Joanna Coles]

So we should come back on Thursday in our next episode of Inside Trump's Head and discuss whether or not we think she's going to get a pardon. And Donald Trump has pardoned way more people already in the first six months. Of his presidency than any of the president's. The most recent president.

[Michael Wolff]

Well. And we should talk about the kind of people he pardoned, right?

[Joanna Coles]

January 6th. Yeah. All right, so let's come back and talk about the pardon culture on Thursday.

[Michael Wolff]

Great.

[Joanna Coles]

And then we will also take comments from people because there have been a lot. Not least, why is our backdrop look increased? And it is a very good question because I think it was made in the wrong fabric. And we are going to be addressing that. Hopefully we will have our new one by Thursday. And I wish people could see how smart you are because you have got a very nice linen jacket on, very nice suede loafers, no socks, very cool. And matching. Matching pants.

[Michael Wolff]

Thank you. Is it I should be complimenting?

[Joanna Coles]

No, you don't need to. Don't need to. It's all good. But I just wanted people to have some background. Have we covered everything?

[Michael Wolff]

The thing that we did not cover, but I think it's worth pointing out, is that we were number five in news podcasts.

[Joanna Coles]

We were on Apple, on Apple. And the Daily Beast podcast, which you've been instrumental in helping us with, broke the YouTube top 100. So congratulations.

[Michael Wolff]

Congratulations to you.

[Joanna Coles]

Thank you. Thank you all for making it possible. Don't forget to share this episode with your friends, with your enemies, with Trump's friends, with Trump's enemies. And you can subscribe to the Daily Beast for minute by minute details on how much makeup is he putting on those beautiful bruises? I mean, he really is going to have very messy hands because he's got makeup on both hands now. And then there was a moment where he realized the makeup wasn't blending in. I can whitehouse. If anybody's listening. I can help you with the blending in of the makeup on the skin. He sort of sat like this so that you couldn't see it.

[Michael Wolff]

He does his own makeup.

[Joanna Coles]

He does his own makeup.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay, well, another point that he doesn't like people touching him. So I don't know about the massages, but I think we ought to call the White House and ask them.

[Joanna Coles]

And ask them, what are we asking him? Does he like massages?

[Michael Wolff]

Does he get a massage? How often? Who gives them? How much does he pay?

[Joanna Coles]

On it. On it. All right. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erssen, and our editor, Josie Millwood. And as our first lady always implores us to do, be beast.

[Michael Wolff]

Is your business craving efficiency? Is it hungry for productivity? Then there's a tech solution you should implement now if you want to crush your KPIs and you also want BLTs or burrito bowls or like bagels, it's called EasyCater1 platform for ordering food from a huge variety of restaurants for all your workplace needs from falafel full for the finance team to lasagna for the lunch and learn plus tools to help you save time and stay on budget. Ready to nail your deliverables? Order [e-mail] Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Joanna Coles]

This area was sort of a shark tank for predators.

[Michael Wolff]

Not just the Green River Killer, but.

[Joanna Coles]

Others in who Took Misty Copsey? I'm investigating the disappearance of a 14 year old girl who vanished from the Washington State Fair in 1992.

[Michael Wolff]

How?

[Joanna Coles]

Why?

[Michael Wolff]

She was so sweet and so young. What happened to her?

[Joanna Coles]

Listen to who Took Misty Copsey? Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michael Wolff]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast. Com.