Why Dems Finally Have Leverage Over Trump: Wolff

Summary

---

Inside Trump's Head — Episode Summary

Podcast: Inside Trump's Head
Episode: Why Dems Finally Have Leverage Over Trump: Wolff
Date: September 26, 2025
Hosts: Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles dive into the current American political climate under Donald Trump, focusing on the looming government shutdown and the rare opportunity it presents for Democrats to take a stand. They analyze the psyche and strategy of Trump, the challenges facing Democratic leadership, and the cultural ripple effects of Trump’s dominance—from government operations to First Amendment controversies in media. The episode is marked by frank, incisive commentary about political courage, institutional decay, and the urgent need for effective opposition.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

---

The Government Shutdown and Democratic Leverage

[03:18–08:56]

• The episode opens with the threat of a government shutdown, which the hosts frame as a recurring drama in recent years.
• Michael Wolff notes that shutdown threats are often leveraged for political theater, usually resolved at the last minute.
  • "The last time this happened ... the Democrats, principally Chuck Schumer, punted... it was incredibly controversial because basically, basically a good portion of the Democratic Party was saying, 'Look what's happening here. We are funding the dismantling of democracy.'" [04:01]
• Joanna Coles argues Democrats may have been hesitant to resist early in Trump’s term, rationalizing that it was "too early to start resisting.” [04:39]
• Wolff discusses historic shutdowns, including the Gingrich-Clinton episode, which backfired on Republicans, and the 2018-19 Trump shutdown.
  • "Newt Gingrich ... engineered a government shutdown which was blamed on the Republicans. I mean, completely backfired." [06:17]
• They discuss the personal and societal costs: furloughed workers, basic services halted, even referencing how previous shutdowns had indirect cultural impacts (e.g., Monica Lewinsky's White House access during the shutdown).

---

The Leadership Question: Can Democrats Stand Up?

[09:17–14:54]

• Michael Wolff: Democrats rarely get moments of leverage, and the shutdown offers a crucial chance, but they see it as both opportunity and potential trap.
  • "The Democrats have the leverage here. They can decide whether the government will be funded or not funded... this is an opportunity or it's a danger. And that's what they're trying to figure out." [09:22]
• Joanna Coles: Presses on where the decision lies; Wolff says it is "really kind of a singular person, Chuck Schumer." Schumer’s previous “punt” cost him credibility within his party. [10:12]
• Wolff sharply notes the global stakes:
  • "This is... we have moved into an area of politics that we have never been in before... it is bad now almost on every level." [11:13]

---

Trump’s Tactics: Chaos and Relentlessness

[12:41–15:29]

• Trump’s method is described as unopposed aggression, taking advantage of weak, uncoordinated opposition:
  • "He is willing basically to do anything. Why is he willing to do anything? Because no one stops him." [12:44]
  • "There is literally nobody knows how to stop him. Nobody knows how to play Trump's game. Nobody. And everybody is frightened. What will he do?" [12:58]

---

The Jimmy Kimmel/ABC Showdown as Microcosm

[13:12–16:38]

• The Kimmel suspension and Disney/ABC’s capitulation to Trump’s threats is dissected as a “corporate cock-up” with profound ramifications.
  • Wolff predicts fallout: "I think Bob Iger, the CEO, chairman of Disney, will lose his job. I think the, the head of ABC, Dana Waldron, will lose her job." [14:03]
  • Coles notes "unexpected voices from the right like Ted Cruz" argued this move could backfire on Republicans. [15:18]

---

The Challenge of Rallying Opposition

[18:56–22:45; 24:42–28:31]

• Wolff and Coles agree the country is hungry for organized pushback against Trump, but Democratic messaging is muddled and lacks a charismatic leader.
  • "The American people who are opposed to Donald Trump... have not seen [backbone]." [19:58]
  • "Is this Chuck Schumer's moment? Is he the man for the task?” Coles asks. "I'd say probably not," Wolff responds, likening Schumer to a competent backroom bureaucrat, not a rallying figure. [21:20–21:28]
• The crisis of stale Democratic leadership is highlighted:
  • "These people are very old. Chuck Schumer is not the oldest, but he's certainly not the youngest... they're not ready to deal with a profound change of circumstances." [36:11, 36:28]
• Wolff: Ultimately, Trump “charges” while Democrats “cower.” [28:10]

---

The Importance of Taking a Stand

[26:00–27:41; 34:28–35:25]

• Democrats must present a clear message—vague references to “saving democracy” or administrative issues won’t energize the base. Commitment and recognition of the crisis are essential.
  • "If this is, if there is not a way found to oppose Donald Trump, the entire thing is over." [26:10]
• Absent a courageous stand, Wolff warns, the current order could collapse for good.

---

Cultural and Institutional Breakdown

[31:27–33:44]

• Trump’s tactics are described as not just combative rhetoric but a campaign of institutional dismantling.
  • "It is the literal dismantling of institutions, the literal dismantling of any of the procedures that would have stymied this." [32:32]
• The hosts reflect in a personal aside on how Trump’s dominance, once thought laughable, now feels existentially urgent.

---

What Should the Democrats Do?

[34:28–36:24]

• Wolff: "I think you shut down the government, obviously... Anything, anything you can do that can command attention. Just play it Trump's way and give you an opportunity to platform a message, take it, use it." [34:49]
• They debate whether there is a Democrat who can credibly lead a resistance; Wolff suggests “a complete cast member change” is needed. [23:35]

---

Lighter Moments & Listener Engagement

[33:44–34:28; 37:10–39:25]

• Wolff and Coles reminisce about a surreal visit to Trump’s Beverly Hills house and his fridge full of Haagen Dazs vanilla ice cream [34:06–34:09], symbolizing how mundane quirks once provided comic relief, now overshadowed by the seriousness of Trump’s impact.
• They read listener questions: speculation on Melania and Barron’s living arrangements, special episodes about Stephen Miller and “pedo culture,” and whether a president should be removed over dementia.
  • Joanna Coles: "In a democracy, you should be able to elect someone with dementia." [38:55–38:59] (Delivered with trademark dry wit.)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "There is literally nobody knows how to stop him. Nobody knows how to play Trump's game. Nobody. And everybody is frightened. What will he do?"
  – Michael Wolff [12:58]
• "The Democrats have the leverage here... This is an opportunity or it's a danger."
  – Michael Wolff [09:22]
• "If this is, if there is not a way found to oppose Donald Trump, the entire thing is over."
  – Michael Wolff [26:10]
• "They cower, he charges."
  – Joanna Coles [28:10]
• "It is the literal dismantling of institutions, the literal dismantling of any of the procedures that would have stymied this... All of us have grown up on [government] is being dismantled. That is it. And unless there's somebody who can express that, you know, we're just cooked."
  – Michael Wolff [32:32]
• "Chuck Schumer is a backroom guy. ... In terms of someone who is effectively being asked to take an existential position—'we are going to die if somebody doesn't figure this out'—[that's] not what he's ever done."
  – Michael Wolff [21:34, 23:37]
• "It's that weird sense of going out in the street and everything is good ... at the same time you realize everything is changing. Every assumption about how this country functions is under attack."
  – Michael Wolff [26:43]

---

Timeline of Important Segments

• 03:18 — Government shutdown threat: history, stakes, and Democratic leverage
• 10:12 — Schumer’s role and responsibility
• 12:41 — Trump’s use of DOJ vs. opposition timidity
• 13:12 — Analysis of Disney/ABC’s Kimmel suspension and media capitulation
• 19:57 — The public’s hunger for real opposition to Trump
• 21:20–21:34 — Can Schumer rise to meet the moment? (Wolff: “Probably not.”)
• 23:35 — Call for generational, leadership, and temperament change among Democrats
• 26:00 — The need for clear, committed Democratic action
• 28:10 — Trump’s advantage: relentless momentum vs. Democratic fear
• 32:32 — Institutional dismantling and the existential crisis of governance
• 34:28 — Concrete steps: “Shut down the government. Anything that commands attention—play it Trump’s way.”
• 37:10 — Listener Q&A: speculation, future episodes, and sharp banter
• 38:55 — On democracy and mental fitness: “In a democracy, you should be able to elect someone with dementia.”

---

Conclusion

This episode starkly portrays the dilemma faced by Democrats as they contemplate a government shutdown. Wolff and Coles argue that unprecedented times demand unprecedented resolve, and that effective opposition to Trump has yet to emerge—from Congress, the Democratic Party, or the broader establishment. The hosts combine granular policy discussion, cultural critique, and biting humor, providing a sobering but incisive look "inside Trump's head"—and the state of American resistance.

---

For questions or to join the conversation, leave a comment on YouTube or reach out via The Daily Beast.

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

Don't raise your voice to prove you're right. Focus your mind with every word of irrefutable fact you can find, because conviction is the calm that comes when you know that you really do know. People who read the Financial Times know that they can shape their own perspectives with confidence because their viewpoints are informed by genuinely unbiased journalism, clarity and conviction. Source ft subscribe to the financial [e-mail].

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Imagine a world of extraordinary comfort where Bolen Branch bedding wraps you in the softest. Embrace the coziest experience made from the world's finest 100% organic cotton, all so you can sleep better. Start building your fall sanctuary with Bolen Branch's iconic signature sheets, made with a buttery, breathable weave that gets softer with every wash. Enjoy 15% off your first set of sheets with free shipping and returns at bol ll and branch.com with code buttery. See site for details and exclusions.

[Michael Wolff]

Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from wtf. Today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. Boost Mobile offers the coverage, network speed and service you're used to, but at more affordable prices. Why pay more if you don't have to? You can get an unlimited plan for $25 a that will never increase in price, ever. No price hikes, no multi line requirements, no stress. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online@boost mobile.com After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 per month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan. That weird sense of going out in the street and everything is good. You can get your cappuccino and you can get your this and everything seems in the moment normal. At the same time you realize everything is changing. Every assumption about how this country functions is under attack. The idea of the government that you know, that you have grown up onrepublicans or Democrats, it doesn't matter, all of us have grown up on is being dismantled. That is it. And unless there's somebody who can express that, you know, we're just cooked.

[Joanna Coles]

I'm Joanna Coles.

[Michael Wolff]

And I'm Michael Wolff.

[Joanna Coles]

And where are we going?

[Michael Wolff]

Deep, deep, deep inside Trump's head.

[Joanna Coles]

Are you over your jet lag?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. You know, I'm at an age where I don't have to go anywhere and I still have jet lag.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. I thought you were going to say you were of an age where you've traveled so much, you're jet lagless.

[Michael Wolff]

No, quite the opposite.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so you're always suffering from jet lag, even the jitney into New York City.

[Michael Wolff]

What can I say?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, what you can say is, what the hell is going on in America? And are we going to have an operational government next week as we.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, let's. I mean, I think in this set of Trump chapters, they're all very short chapters because there are so many of them. The one that we're now looking at is a government shutdown. And we have looked at this before. As a matter of fact, I've been through in the Trump years now quite a number of threats of government shutdowns, which tend not to happen.

[Joanna Coles]

I always feel like it's a threat. They hold it over each other, and then somehow, miraculously, at the last minute, they manage to agree on the budget.

[Michael Wolff]

The last time this happened, which was, I believe, in March, the Democrats, principally Chuck Schumer, punted. And that was incredibly controversial because basically, basically a good portion of the Democratic Party was saying, look what's happening here. Look at this. This is what we're funding. We are funding the dismantling of the. Of democracy. And then Chuck Schumer said, well, it will be worse if we. If weif we don't fund it. Which is something I don't understand, of.

[Joanna Coles]

Course, but it was also only two months into the Trump regime. Right. So you could argue that from the Democrats point of view, it was too early to start resisting.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't know. I mean, I think then it was. I think then there was a very clear rationale. Everybody saw what was happening. You know, this wasn't even two months in, even a week in. It was clear that something was going wrong here in a profound way. But anyway, they punted on that. Now there is next week, five days from now. There is another opportunity. Now I think we have to say, what is that opportunity? Because the Democrats actually feel that it not only may not be an opportunity, that it is a trap. And there are two.

[Joanna Coles]

They feel it's a trap to go for the government shutdown.

[Michael Wolff]

There was a government shutdown which was somewhat more Limited in 2018, going into 2019, and I think it ran for almost a month. And that wasn't good for Trump. That actually just added to the whole sense of chaos in the first administration.

[Joanna Coles]

Will he have learned from that? I vaguely remember that. I mean, in the chaos of it all. And then the COVID It's almost as If Covid drew a line across history and it's so hard to remember what happened before that, do you think he's learned from that?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, that they will be blamed. And I mean, there are sort of two notable examples of what happens, what can happen in a government shutdown. So there's a government shutdown when Newt Gingrich ran the. Ran Congress for the Republicans. Yes. And Clinton was, you know, he engineered a government shutdown which was blamed on the Republicans. I mean, completely backfired, totally. I mean, you know, it ruined his reputation, Newts, and it was a huge plus for the Democrats. So everybody is looking at this and saying, you know, this could backfire. The other notable event in the. In a government shutdown was Monica Lewinsky. You will recall that the government was shut down. And then. And let's go over what happens when the government gets shut down. It means that everybody gets what they call furloughed. Government workers far and wide, furloughed.

[Joanna Coles]

So that means they stay at home. They don't come in. The government has.

[Michael Wolff]

They're not allowed. Yes. And they're not allowed to come in.

[Joanna Coles]

And they don't get paid.

[Michael Wolff]

And they don't get paid. Yes. I mean, it's kind of, you know, it can be devastating. I mean, these are people who need paychecks and have families, not to mention the services that they provide.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, the most basic government services will not be available.

[Joanna Coles]

Veterans, hospitals. What about air traffic control? Does that come under it?

[Michael Wolff]

I don't know. I mean, there are certain things and there will be certain exceptions to. For critical, critical functions. I mean, they go out of their way trying not to put people in literal danger. But nevertheless, it is a. The government is not funded. There is no money. So the Monica Lewinsky issue is that during the government shutdown, she was. Had achieved great access in the White House because she was an intern. And she had to do what she was doing, what senior aides would otherwise have to do and which gave her access to direct access to the president. And the rest is history.

[Joanna Coles]

The rest is history. Although Monica has remade herself as a rather good executive producer. She was very good on impeachment, I thought, which was the Ryan Murphy show about what happened to her. And more recently, I interviewed her recently actually, for the Daily Beast podcast because she was doing the story of Amanda Knox, A twisted tale of Amanda Knox.

[Michael Wolff]

A twisted tale.

[Joanna Coles]

Anyway, let's just get back to. Because we.

[Michael Wolff]

No, but. So anyway, so this comes up five days from now. The Democrats. It is within the Democrats. The Democrats have the leverage here. They can decide whether the government will be funded or not funded. Now, let's spell out part of the background here, that the Democrats don't have much leverage in most instances now. So this is. This is there, they're in the spotlight. This is an opportunity or it's a danger. And that's what they're trying to figure.

[Joanna Coles]

Out right now, who will eventually make the decision as to whether or not the Democrats in good conscience can agree to fund this government and keep it open.

[Michael Wolff]

Really kind of a singular person, Chuck Schumer, so the minority leader of the Senate, and he made the decision in March, and that cost him. I think it cost him. He took a meaningful hit on that. Democrats think that he caved. And because of that, that and other things, he is facing some amount of opposition in New York. Chuck Schumer has been a senator for life. So I'm not sure if opposition actually is meaningful, but it might be. And I mean, many things are going on in New York, including a mayor's race, that no one expected. So I think he's scared, and that will influence what he does now. And from my point of view, it's a perfect opportunity for the Democrats to put a stake in the ground, to create an event that people can rally about, for finally the Democrats to say no to Donald Trump. And let's understand where we are at this point. I don't think that there can be much. I don't think that there can be. There can be much doubt. I'm trying to be careful on how I say this, because I think that it is so critical. This is. We have moved into an area of politics that we have never been in before. And if in March we might have said, well, who knows where this is going to go? Seems bad. It is bad now almost on every level. I mean, from Kimmel last week to healthcare, Charlie Kirk, and then Trump announcing that he is going to use this to go after anybody who says things that he doesn't like. I mean, there is the pretense. Every day, the pretense is discarded, Right?

[Joanna Coles]

Really using the DOJ to go after people.

[Michael Wolff]

It becomes clearer and clearer and clearer what is happening, what he is willing to do. And he is willing basically to do anything. Why is he willing to do anything? Because no one stops him.

[Joanna Coles]

Right?

[Michael Wolff]

There is literally nobody knows how to stop him. Nobody knows how to play Trump's game. Nobody. And everybody is frightened. What will he do? I mean, we saw the Kimmel thing.

[Joanna Coles]

So let's unpack the Kimmel As a sort of. Did ABC make the right decision by deciding to reinstate Jimmy Kimmel on Tuesday night?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I'm sure reinstatement is better than better than not. But from the Disney ABC point of view, it's a colossal mess.

[Joanna Coles]

Go on.

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, it's a calamity. They folded. Trump threatened, you know, the FCC commissioner.

[Joanna Coles]

Brendan Carr threatened, threatened.

[Michael Wolff]

And they immediately folded. Immediately. I mean, they just ran for the hills.

[Joanna Coles]

No, it was incredible. There was a studio audience in the theatre waiting for the show to begin when they suddenly were told, no, you have to go home, it's being suspended indefinitely.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. So now they're, now they've capitulated on that we're wrong or whatever rationale they come up for with putting Kimmel back on the air. But I mean, clearly, clearly it's a cock up. It's a corporate cock up of immense proportions. I think Bob Iger, the CEO, chairman of Disney, will lose his job. I think the, the head of abc, Dana Waldron, will lose her job. I think we're, the ripple effect of this is going to be huge. And it's relevant for where we are now because one of the questions that keeps coming up is what do you do about this, about Trump?

[Joanna Coles]

How do you push?

[Michael Wolff]

Where is the opposition? And we certainly haven't seen it now. We've suddenly, the Kimmel thing, you know, it's essentially united the entire entertainment community and Disney and ABC had no alternative.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, it's even brought in unexpected voices from the right like Ted Cruz who said, this is a rod for our own backs. Democrats will be able to use this against us if we pursue this.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. So now, I mean, you have to go back and say how what, I mean, this was a real, what were they thinking? Moment. And I can't, I can't imagine, except that they were thinking, we don't know what to do about Donald Trump. Everybody and everybody let' syou know, we've seen the technology people in the White House, we've seen every other media company that has faced Trump capitulate. And you know, I think Bob Iger said, what can we do?

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and he underestimated the blowback. Right? He underestimated people canceling their Hulu and Disney plus subscriptions. He underestimated how popular Jimmy Kimmel is, not even necessarily with an audience on ABC at this point because legacy media broadcasting media is dying. But Jimmy Kimmel lives in LA. He hangs out with LA Listers. 400 celebrities signed a petition in favor of him.

[Michael Wolff]

And a word from our sponsors.

[Joanna Coles]

Only Boost Mobile Boost Mobile will give you.

[Michael Wolff]

A free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone new 5G phone enough, but.

[Hype Man]

I'm your hype man.

[Michael Wolff]

When you purchase an eligible device, you.

[Hype Man]

Get $25 off every month for 12.

[Michael Wolff]

Months with credits totaling one year of free service.

[Hype Man]

Taxes extra for the device and service Plan online only.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Imagine a world of extraordinary comfort where Bolen Branch Bedding wraps you in the softest. Embrace the coziest experience made from the world's finest 100% organic cotton, all so you can sleep better. Start building your fall sanctuary with Bolin Branch's iconic signature sheets made with a buttery, breathable weave that gets softer with every wash. Enjoy 15% off your first set of sheets with free shipping and returns at B O L L and Branch.com with code buttery. See site for details and exclusions. When you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe Allbirds or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, sleek branding and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret. The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business. For millions of brands, that engine is Shopify, making selling seamless for them and shopping effortless for us. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Alo Yoga uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comretail all lowercase go to shopify.comretail to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.comretail hello listeners.

[Michael Wolff]

Meet Lisa.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Hey there.

[Michael Wolff]

Lisa runs an online boutique specializing in sustainable fashion. With Acast, she found a whole new way to reach eco conscious shoppers.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Yep, I recorded a quick ad targeted listeners interested in fashion and sustainability using Acast, acast's audience attributes targeting feature and set my budget. Before I knew it, people all over were hearing about my shop.

[Michael Wolff]

Now that's a smart way to grow your business. Hey Lisa, what's trending right now?

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Shopping sustainably and my sales, of course.

[Michael Wolff]

Start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with Acast. Visit go.acast.com advertise to get started.

[Joanna Coles]

And we're back. And just let's remind people exactly where we are. Michael, where are we?

[Michael Wolff]

We are inside Donald Trump's head. I think what may be underestimated here is the desire for there to be pushback against Donald Trump. And I don't think that that just exists in the entertainment community. I think that this exists across the country and no one has figured out how to express this or harness this or organize it which brings us back, I think, to the shutdown. So that the shutdown, and this is, it's a complicated thing because, you know, the Democrats have to have a clear rationale for the shutdown because you're essentially saying to the American people, we're going to cause you grief.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

So there has to be a rationale for that. But at the same time, this is, this is backbone, which the American people who are opposed to Donald Trump, and that's at least half of the country, maybe a little more, have not seen. So it's a kind of thing. And I think it's a moment in which people can say, okay, yes, this isn't, we're not all just victims of this. We're not all just bystanders to whatever this thing is that happens.

[Joanna Coles]

There is a mechanism here for us.

[Michael Wolff]

To process something here, but then you have to make that happen. And the problem is, you know, the message now is about, you know, it's about health care. You know, we're not going to, we're not going to fund the government unless, unless the Trump administration agrees to reinstate the following issues, which seems to me, I mean, I mean, sure, but it also seems to me bureaucratic. And it's doesn't, it's not theit's not the rallying message. And another problem there is that this is sort of Chuck Schumer is at the middle of this, and he's not a rallying guy.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, I was just going to ask you, is this Chuck Schumer's moment? Is he the man for the task?

[Michael Wolff]

I'd say probably not. I mean, this is never what he' sthishis isn't what he's ever done.

[Joanna Coles]

He's a backroom guy. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Trying to, he's a legislator. I mean, I think he's, he's fairly good at his job. He's a bureaucrat. I mean, that's part of the crisis for the Democrats is that they have nobody, nobody who can step forward, nobody who can be a symbol of resistance, nobody who is credible in that role, nobody who enjoys that role.

[Joanna Coles]

Right. Because we've got governors who've made, who've made noise on social media. You've got J.B. pritzker in Chicago who's been trying to, you know, front up to Trump and say, we don't want your people here. You've got Governor Newsom, you've got Wes Moore, you've got people who've protested him sending troops in. But this is different because it's Congress.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And we're just starting to see those Democrats in state houses step forward. And we don't really know if any of them has the moxie yet or anyone who canwho can articulate this in such a way that people say, yes.

[Joanna Coles]

Yes, close down the government, shut the VA hospital.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, in terms of Congress, nobody. I mean, it'. Sy. These are Democrats who have been in positions of power, many of them, for a very long time. They actually come out of a time, or at least the expectations of time around the corner when they're in charge, and that's what they do. And that the idea that now is a different time and demands different temperament is, you know, I think still has not kind of gotten through here. I mean, I mean, we need a change of a complete cast member change.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and a change of approach.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. I mean, but we need not only a change of approach, but we need a change of, I mean, people who can do this, people who are up for this. I mean, Chuck Schumer seems, you know, I mean, he's been in this job a long time. I'm sure he does it, he does it relatively well. But in terms of someone who is effectively being asked to take an existential position if, you know, we are going to die if somebody doesn't figure this out, I mean, and I think this is still this moment in which all of these people who have been in power and around power for a long time have not quite come to terms with the fact that this is the life they know is in the process of ending. And if there is not a fight now, it will end. It will end very soon. It is ending.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, Hakeem Jeffries, Minority head of Congress, House of Representatives, and Chuck Shuma, as you say, Minority Leader of the Senate, have both asked for a meeting with Trump on Tuesday. We heard that he'd said no to that. And also.

[Michael Wolff]

That'S, by the way, just a bullshit thing.

[Joanna Coles]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

But they're just setting, setting up, setting the scene for it, setting up the rationale here, which is, which is fine, but they always do this and they capitulate.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and he's a man who likes a fight. They don't want the conflict. He wants the conflict. Well, let's just game this out in terms of there is a government shutdown, it's led by the Democrats. How does Trump win this?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, this is one in the, in the message. In other words, the Democrats have to be clear enough and concise enough and smart enough to deliver a message that this is worth it.

[Joanna Coles]

And how do they do that, because in the election, we saw that the idea that democracy is in peril didn't play with people. They weren't concerned about that.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, the election was an eon ago.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay, so you think people, enough people now are like, this isn't good. Certainly Donald Trump is not doing well in the polls.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, this is, this isn't. I mean, I think that what has to happen most of all is that the Democrats have to show a level of, a level of commitment, a level of crisis. They have to recognize what's going, they have to express what's going on, and they have to recognize what's going on. I mean, if this is, if there is not a way found to oppose Donald Trump, the entire thing is over.

[Joanna Coles]

So what, I mean, we saw, I.

[Michael Wolff]

Mean, this is a critical, critical, critical moment. I mean, and, you know, it's that weird sense of going out in the street and everything is good and you can get a cup, you can get your cappuccino, and you can, can get your this. And everything seems, seems in the moment, normal. At the same time, you realize everything is changing. Every assumption about how this country functions is under attack.

[Joanna Coles]

So what's the learning from the U turn at abc, from Bob Iger pulling Jimmy Kimmel off the air, suspended indefinitely, to them reinstating him on Tuesday? What is the learning?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I mean, I think and would hope that the learning, the learning is that there is that people are angry and they're not going to take it anymore.

[Joanna Coles]

And what's going on in here? What is going on in Trump's head as he's thinking about this? Does he want to force, does he want to force the shutdown?

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No. And that's the thing, and that's what the Democrats are, Democrats are worried about. You know, I mean, he's ready to go to battle. I mean, he' syou know, I mean, that's why he's so good at this. They cower, he charges.

[Joanna Coles]

They cower, he charges. Do you think that's a deterrent to Trump, or do you think he's got so much momentum for his changes now he's just railroading through everybody?

[Michael Wolff]

I think, I think he's going to railroad ahead. I mean, I think that the Democrats will, I think there's a very good chance they'll capitulate.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, we'll see. We'll be back on the day of the potential shutdown. What better time? We'll be spending the weekend observing. And also there was, I think the Democrats have probably all, at this point, Read Ezra Klein's piece in the New York Times or listen to his piece podcast, which came out two weeks ago, discussing this very thing. And I heard it echoed in my circle of democratic friends. Well, have you read Ezra Klein talking about, you need to take this seriously, the threat of a shutdown. You need to think about how you could use it for Democrats. Can you actually in all good conscience fund this government, given what they're doing?

[Michael Wolff]

And there was someone else's, alas, I don't remember who that. That argued just recently, yesterday or the day before, that this should not be about the things that they have now itemized, health care, et cetera. That this should specifically be about tariffs. I mean, to me that's the same, the same issue, tariffs, health care. It avoids having to come to terms, which the Democrats always do, with a real expression of what's going on here. Let's have a word from our sponsors. Joanna, it's time.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Imagine a world of extraordinary comfort where Bolen branch bedding wraps you in the softest. Embrace the coziest experience made from the world's finest 100% organic cotton. Also, you can sleep better. Start building your fall sanctuary with Bolen Branches iconic signature sheets made with a buttery, breathable weave that gets softer with every wash. Enjoy 15% off your first set of sheets with free shipping and returns at B O l l and branch.com with code buttery C site for details and exclusions. In too many Chicago neighborhoods, access to fresh food is a luxury, not a given. Gardineers is working to change that by supporting school garden programs that empower students to grow their own produce, learn about nutrition, and fight back against systemic food injustice. These aren't just gardens. They're pathways to health, education and equity. Learn how you can [e-mail] let's grow food justice in Chicago together.

[Joanna Coles]

And always thrilled to hear from our sponsors. What are we back discussing?

[Michael Wolff]

What are we back discussing?

[Joanna Coles]

Government shutdown.

[Michael Wolff]

Oh, the government shutdown.

[Joanna Coles]

You've seen them motivated by and you've seen regular people motivated by what happened to Jimmy Kimmel. Even people who don't find Jimmy Kimmel very funny, knew that this was a moment, that it's the First Amendment for a reason and no one wants again that.

[Michael Wolff]

Exactly. So I think the idea, the idea that you have to run from these broader issues that our, the world as we know it is breaking. And unless someone steps forward and starts to do things, throw bodies into this, into the, you know, before the onward rush of machines, we are going to be in trouble here. There is not going to be any going back.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, and I think one of the reasons that people were fed up with the Democrats was cancel culture. Right. The fact that you couldn't, people felt that they couldn't say what they wanted to say, that common sense speech was no longer allowed. The Democrats have become too woke. And now you have the opposite of that. Trump saying he's coming after people. JD Vance saying, if you say something disrespectful about Charlie Kirk, we are coming after you. And guess what? You should call someone's boss. If you see someone else doing it. If you have a friend saying this, call their boss.

[Michael Wolff]

But it's not just that. No, no, it's not just that. It is, it is the literal dismantling of institutions, the literal dismantling of any of the, the procedures that would have, that would have stymied this. The idea of checks and balances, the idea of the government that, you know, that you have grown up onrepublicans or Democrats, it doesn't matter. All of us have grown up on is being dismantled. That is it. And unless there's somebody who can express that, you know, we're just cooked. And, you know, and I have gone into this always as a basic optimist, you know, Donald Trump is Donald Trump, but he's not going to last forever. And, you know, somehow you just have to hold your breath. Well, I don't think that that's true anymore. Donald Trump turns out, and no one is more surprised than I am, to be incredibly effective.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, a couple of podcasts ago, you talked about what it was like being in his Hollywood house after you'd run into him in Jimmy Kimmel's green room. You'd gone back to Donald Trump's house in Beverly Hills, opposite the Beverly Hills Hotel. He'd thrown open his enormous refrigerator door to display his many, many pots of ice cream. And the two of you had seen.

[Michael Wolff]

Row after row of Haagen Dazs vanilla.

[Joanna Coles]

And so strange to me that his ice cream fridge, basically, and you'd sat there on the sofa with your long spoons and you were thinking, this is just hilarious. It's going to make a great piece. And here we are ten years later as he dismantles everything we've taken to represent America.

[Michael Wolff]

So really what the Democrats and everyone else has to begin to think about is how do you oppose this? I mean, how do you say no? What do you do? I mean, I mean, I think you shut down the government, obviously, because that's.

[Joanna Coles]

The opportunity no longer working for them.

[Michael Wolff]

That you've been there. Anything, anything that you can do that can command attention, just play it Trump's way and give you an opportunity to platform a message, take it, use it. You know, beyond that, I don't know. I mean, I mean, it's something that we should be, we should discuss here because everyone should be discussing it. I don't know what is required. A 10 million person march on Washington, possibly Chuck Schumer.

[Joanna Coles]

If you're watching, you need to give Michael Wolff a call. He's got many ideas for you. Well, we'll be back on Tuesday.

[Michael Wolff]

Maybe principally that Chuck Schumer should step aside.

[Joanna Coles]

Step aside, sir. But he can't do that between now and Tuesday.

[Michael Wolff]

But what he could do is say, I'm not running again. I'm going to make this. My, my.

[Joanna Coles]

When have you ever known a white man to voluntarily give up power? That just doesn't happen. Doesn't happen with, you know, older white women anymore now either.

[Michael Wolff]

Women give. Does anyone give up power?

[Joanna Coles]

No, it's just women have less power to give up. But I don't see Chuck Schumer between now and Tuesday giving up power. There are a few people. Jerry Nadler has agreed.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, no, no, I mean, there are.

[Joanna Coles]

Definitely people around the country.

[Michael Wolff]

No, and also, I mean, this is a major issue, this is a structural issue with the Democratic Party. These people are very old. Chuck Schumer is not the oldest, but he's certainly not the youngest.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, Chuck Grassley, who's a Republican, is 90. He's 89. Yeah.

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, I mean, this is, I mean, throughout Congress. But I think one of the Democrats problems is specifically, I mean, the Republicans at this point have no problems. The Democrats is that, you know, these guys have been hanging around for a long time and they're not ready to deal with a profound change of circumstances. And no one would be. I mean, if you've had the job for a long time and suddenly, suddenly the world changes. You're just doing your job like you've always done it.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, you've managed, you've managed to segue from writing books to going on social media.

[Michael Wolff]

Jesus.

[Joanna Coles]

But before we go, we've got many, many comments from people. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Do you think it's possible that Mrs. Trump and her son moved back into the White House because they know the felon that is? I think they mean Donald Trump is dangerously ill and they want to be there if something goes wrong. We haven't Even talked about the symptoms he displays of all manner of things.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, first thing, I don't think that his wife has not moved back.

[Joanna Coles]

So Barron's moved without his mum.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes.

[Joanna Coles]

One person is saying they're casting their vote. Janet. Janet Mann. Janet Mann. J A N A T Jana T man, I think is casting her vote or his vote. Vote for a special episode on what Michael has to say about Stephen Miller, which we do need to do. Definitely. Maybe we'll do that next week. And we also wanted to do a special episode on pedos, too, and the whole pedo culture.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. Which I think we should do. Should any president be removed from office if there is a suspicion of dementia? And that's someone from U of A Z. I'm assuming that's University of Arizona, Cat 81.

[Michael Wolff]

Suspicion of dementia.

[Joanna Coles]

Well, that's because we had Dr. John Gartner at the weekend, who diagnosed Trump with so many medical terms. I got in a bit of a fluster, but I was sort of convinced by it. The grandiosity, the slow blood pumping around the body.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. Well, this is sort of what elections are for. In other words, in a democracy, you should be able to elect someone with dementia.

[Joanna Coles]

In a democracy, you should be able to elect someone with dementia. How very depressing. It's very downer note to end on. I'm not going to end on a downer note. I'm going to tell you that we are going to get some of these mugs in and we're going to send them to People for the best comments. Okay. We're not going to sell them, we're not going to do merch, but we are going to get T shirts and mugs for people. That's an option. Upbeat. And then when there's a knock on the door, you hide them at the back of your cupboard. Right. Or you smash them into pieces.

[Michael Wolff]

A knock on the door.

[Joanna Coles]

A knock on the door. Michael Wolfe. If there's a knock on.

[Michael Wolff]

They knock.

[Joanna Coles]

They bang, they bang.

[Michael Wolff]

All right, well, they have those things.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, God. This is just also depressing. Battering, rums. Battering. I think that's just in. In Law and order, you know, Isn't that just in police movies?

[Michael Wolff]

No, no, no, no, it's not.

[Joanna Coles]

Okay. All right, this, this conversation is taking a very deep turn for the worst. All right, we'll be back on Tuesday. Michael.

[Michael Wolff]

Joella.

[Joanna Coles]

And that's it then for this week. Where are we going? Where are we going next Tuesday?

[Michael Wolff]

Inside Trump's head on the eve. Actually, on the day of the shutdown. We'll see. Are they going to shut down? Are they not going to shut down? Actually that will go into. Will be in the afternoon and they will go right up until midnight on that.

[Joanna Coles]

To shut down or not to shut down? If you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget, join the Daily Beast community. You can join under this YouTube.

[Michael Wolff]

Am I supposed to say something?

[Joanna Coles]

I think so. Inside Trump's head, I'm not quite sure. Inside Trump said, I'm feeling giddy with depression at this point. Don't forget to leave us a comment on YouTube. Please subscribe. We're independent media and we need your support. What else haven't I said? I feel like there's usually a few things I say at the end. Subscribe, subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts. You thank people I thank before I thank them. I reference the First Lady. We don't know where she's living. She might be living in dc. She might be living in.

[Michael Wolff]

She's living here.

[Joanna Coles]

Oh, she's living in New York. Okay, good for her. We want to reference her and say, as she would have us say, be beast. And we want to thank our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erson and our editor, Jesse Millwood. And a special shout out to our bebeast tier of members, Karen White, Heidi Riley and Connie Rutherford. We need more Bee beast level members. You get lots of extra content. You get your name read out. Michael will have dinner with you. What else?

[Michael Wolff]

I have a cousin named Karen White. Possibly it's my cousin.

[Joanna Coles]

Are you Michael's cousin? Let's find out. Anyway, I hope she is your cousin and maybe she's got more members of the family Spring in.

[Michael Wolff]

Fantastic.

[Joanna Coles]

We'll see you on Tuesday. From real inspiration to digital iteration to achieving perfection. Make it right the first time with a digital twin.

[Michael Wolff]

Transform the everyday with Siemens.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Imagine a world of extraordinary comfort where Bolen Branch bedding wraps you in the softest. Embrace the coziest experience. Made from the world's finest 100% organic cotton. All so you can sleep better. Start building your fall sanctuary with Bolen Branch's iconic signature sheets made with a buttery, breathable weave that gets softer with every wash. Enjoy. 15% off your first set of sheets with free shipping and returns at B O L L& Branch.com with code BUTTERY. See site for details and exclusions.

[Hype Man]

It's finally happened. Your kid could be part of the first generation to never suffer the rough touch of toilet paper on their tender tush. All thanks to Flushable Little Dude Wipes. They clean like regular Dude Wipes, but come in bubble bum scent or fragrance free for kids because we know little butts can make a big mess. Kids love them, parents trust them, and messes fear them. Whether it's after snack time, potty time or mystery mess time, Little Dude Wipes have you covered. You can toss a pack in your diaper bag, glove box or backpack for a quick clean on the go, but with Little Dude Wipes you can keep your kids keister clean without the burn and debris toilet paper can leave behind on their behinds. And since Little Dude Wipes are free of chemical binders and alcohol, you can be sure their little B holes get the safest clean clean possible. No irritation, no dingleberries, just the confident clean you get from Little dude wipes. Made from 100% plant based natural fibers. Tiny Hands, Big Wipe Clean Butt. Available exclusively at Walmart nationwide.