Michael Wolff (1:59)

I'm trying to imagine a world in which all of the podcasts shut down. There would be a silence over the planet.

Joanna (2:06)

Would the silence be like the silence that the generals had listening to Pete Hegseth?

Michael Wolff (2:12)

I think that was its own particular unique silence. A silence of skepticism, horror, and revulsion.

Joanna (2:22)

I really want us to unpack that speech. When we recorded on Tuesday, we didn't have time to understand the true name nature of it. But I think we've both listened to it in full now. And I really want to discuss the bit where he slurps his Coffee and make. I mean, such a bizarre moment. But first, I think we have to remind people where we are going. I have my waterproof galoshes and I have. I've sprayed myself with insecticide. What have you done to prepare for our journey?

Michael Wolff (2:55)

And you're gonna spelunk?

Joanna (2:57)

I'm not going to spelunk today, actually. I thought I might abseil. I. My absale. Where are we going, though? I think it's worth reminding new people to our podcast and indeed our familiar.

Michael Wolff (3:08)

Audience, who we love, we are going inside Trump's head. And once again, I'll make the point that this is where everyone should go. But, but, but people don't. They really assume that Trump is a normal politician. And you look at him and you can follow his. He should be judged on his actions and his policies, which is absolutely not the way to understand this man. And if you do it that way, you won't get it. And what you have to understand is that he is motivated by a whole range of things that have never, ever entered the political sphere.

Joanna (3:52)

Well, angels and others may fear to tread there, but we are fully geared up for our twice weekly journey inside Donald Trump's head. Well, we should talk about Trump derangement syndrome, which we've both been accused of having by Stephen Chang, the White House press spokesperson. But you, as someone who's spent, as you say, 10 years studying this man, you appear relatively normal.

Michael Wolff (4:23)

I don't know. I can barely remember what I was like before Donald Trump. And more and more in, which is a dangerous thing. None of us in this country can remember what we were like before Donald Trump, which is a kind of trauma.

Joanna (4:39)

And I do think you made a very good point last week. And I keep hearing this point from people, which is, is this what an autocracy feels like? Because I go out, I order my cappuccino, I get my cookie, I walk along the streets, everybody's out running, jogging. You know, friends call and say they're on a GLP1. Life seems very normal. And yet politically, we know it's anything but.

Michael Wolff (5:05)

I think it really depends upon who you are. If you're an immigrant, if you're a government worker, I mean, all government workers now. But, but, but, but think of the, the hundreds of thousands of government workers who have lost their jobs before this. If you're an administrator at any number of universities, you can go down the ever growing list of people who have been directly affected by this, but that still leaves most of the country which has not been directly affected. And so they kind of wait, I suppose. I think, I think, you know, is this going to happen to me? What is going to happen?

Joanna (5:57)

Well, and you see a lot of, you know, a lot of people running companies that are wanting to do M and A or they wanted to do something and they're terrified of putting their head above the radar in case they trigger someone in government.

Michael Wolff (6:09)

Totally. I mean, if you're in a, if actually, if you are, if you are a person, an executive in a media company at this point, this is going to be Donald Trump and his reaction is going to be, I don't know, the, the third, fourth, fifth thing you think of, maybe the first thing you think of, you know, I, I mean, I mean Jimmy Kimmel, a A.B. aBC or the Disney Corporation which owns ABC at the lease sign, the least sign sign that the, that the administration was up, was, was taking an issue with Jimmy Kimmel. They folded and then conversely, as soon as the pushback came, they folded again. So this is all going on in reaction to, to Donald Trump.

Joanna (7:05)

So what are you hearing from the White House about how Donald Trump is approaching the shutdown?

Michael Wolff (7:11)

He's been going around and saying we've got the shutdown. So he has immediately turned it into a, a, a, a Trump style conflict. Win or lose, who's going to come out on top? Who is going to appear to be the dominant guy? Who's, who's the alpha in this shutdown room? Chuck Schumer or Donald Trump? Which is a, you know, which is a kind of scary idea if you're a Democrat.

Joanna (7:47)

Go on. Because you were saying that you felt that this was not the right moment for Chuck Schumer, that he's an administrator, he's a backroom guy, he likes to sort of do negotiations and get things done. And as you're always pointing out, Trump relishes conflict, wants nothing more than a bare knuckle fight. And now he's got one.

Michael Wolff (8:07)

I think you've put it. Well, you don't need me then to say that that's, that is, that is in some, the situation. Trump is a, you know, is, is the, is the, is the fighter, is the pugilist, is, I mean, he doesn't really care. It is just about the battle. Chuck Schumer has not, you know, at, after a lifetime in politics is a, is a politician, is a political figure. He's not a, he's not a fighter, he's a negotiator, he's a backroom deal doer, which, which he may yet do. And, and, and he, in his own mind, I think, is probably confused about his, what his role here is. And on one hand, he sees, okay, I got to get the best possible deal I can. But on the other side, his role is just to stand up to Donald Trump. What is the problem with the Democratic Party? And it has nothing but problems. But a central problem is that, that the nation believes it's, it's, it's, it's weak. That in, in a moment, in a moment of who is the dominant personality of where. It's just about the power equation, for better or worse. But that's the moment the Democratic Party has consistently failed to show up.

Joanna (9:46)

Would it be fair to say it feels like there is a sense of inevitability, that Trump may win this one?

Michael Wolff (9:53)

There's always a sense that Trump probably has the advantage because that's. He comes to battle, just to battle.

Joanna (10:02)

Right, right.

Michael Wolff (10:03)

And has an enormous capacity not to fold when other people would fold. Again, think of four criminal indictments, and he just, he just powered through endless bankruptcies.

Joanna (10:18)

I mean, this is his modus operandi through business, through politics, through life. Right, right.

Michael Wolff (10:25)

And so you. And also the fact that he is fundamen, not rational. And that's an incredible advantage to go into a fight. It's a kind of a. You will do anything beyond what other more reasonable people would do. And already, in the nature of this shutdown, he is now, he is now threatening immeasurable pain to Democrats and Democratic interests. So he will use the full force of the government to defeat the Democrats, to squeeze them, to bring them to their knees. And that's a different kind of, that's different than typical shutdowns, which are. It's essentially, you're looking out to your constituencies and saying, yeah, well, how much pain can you take? And eventually both sides sense that the American people are suffering for their, the level of services, government services they're now being deprived of. And then the measure is that going to, who is this going to hurt more? And then there's a negotiation and a settlement. So Trump is taking this beyond that and saying, I still have the power of the United States government here, and I can specifically direct that against, against the interests of the Democratic Party. So I will hurt you. I will use my power to hurt you. I mean, the New York Times had a, had a, had a story in which they called, yes, this is, this, this shutdown is different because of Trump, because Trump is a wild card. Now, what that means is people are afraid of Trump, that he's managed to sell the Fact that, and he speaks in foreign policy. He speaks of this, of being nobody knows what a crazy man will do. And that is part posture and part true, that he's a crazy man. So do the Democrats have the metal, the wherewithal to take the pain?

Joanna (13:16)

It's also, I mean, I still find it difficult to understand how a shutdown can help the party that's got all three arms of government. I mean, hundreds of thousands of people are now on furlough, all sorts of services denied to people. This feels so abjectly dysfunctional. I have a friend staying from Europe this week and she cannot conceive of a government shut shutdown. This is not something that happens to well functioning countries. And it's hard to see how this benefits Trump because precisely because he has all the power. But then the other problem, as you point out, is Chuck Schumer doesn't seem to be able to articulate why they're doing this other than healthcare. And as you suggested in our last podcast together, why on earth don't they just make it about Epstein?

Michael Wolff (14:16)

Yeah, well, again, the Democrats are always defaulting to policy.

Joanna (14:24)

Yeah.

Michael Wolff (14:26)

For good reason. The logical thing would be to say what is the nature of government? It's the policies that they enact and the policies are what helps people or hurts people. And getting beyond that, which is to say, no, that, that's not really true. It's actually something much larger that government should be about, that the government should be about the message. The government should be about the meaning, the meaning of life, of, of what it is to be a, an American at this point in time. I mean, all of that kind of, kind of those existential considerations are, are beyond, almost by definite definition, beyond bureaucrats. That's not the job of a, of a, of a bureaucrat.

Joanna (15:31)

Right.

Michael Wolff (15:31)

And I think that they're always in that, in that, that position. I mean, I had, I had dinner this summer with a, with a governor of a, of a swing state who's, who appears to want to run for president of a Democrat, very wholly reasonable, nice guy who spoke at every, this was small dinner with, you know, eight or so people talking about and asking questions, and to every question he responded with a policy paragraph. And.

Joanna (16:16)

You know, isn't it, because the theater of politics has changed, we're now playing it out on social media. It was always played out on television where Trump is very skilled, but it's now playing out on, as you say, truth social, of which there is an audience of one. But it gets amplified across every other social media Platform and policy paragraphs don't work on social media. Michael, hold just for a second while we take these messages.

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Joanna (18:12)

And I'm back with Michael Wolff and we're both inside Trump's head.

Michael Wolff (18:17)

Well, I don't think that they work in broadly in, in an emotional environment where people actually want other answers, other examples, other, you know, and other reasons to, to believe in this American enterprise. And, and Trump has managed. Yes, Trump, Trump is a, is a, is a performer and Trump is also has managed to make dominance who is stronger. The fundamental issue who can take more pain and Trump can take the pain. The fact that he went through this campaign with these indictments hanging over his head is still confounding to.

Joanna (19:10)

Yeah, most people would have gotten ulcer or cancer over just the stress of it. All right, so, so Donald Trump is striding around the White House and inspecting the construction site on the 90,000 square foot ballroom that he's building, which will dwarf the actual White House itself. Another man who was talking about winning? Was Pete Hegseth lecturing the generals on Tuesday?

Michael Wolff (19:34)

And I think it's a constant, reasonable and obvious question. Who is the most ridiculous person person in the Trump cabinet? I mean Kennedy, Hegseth Bondi, Howard Lutnick of all people. Kristi Noem, Tulsi Gabbard. Never let us forget Kristi NOEM.

Joanna (19:55)

Yes, Linda McMahon.

Michael Wolff (19:57)

Linda McMahon. But clearly this week the winner is Pete Hegseth for most ridiculous award. I mean it just, it just to see him in front of us. The idea of an alcoholic weekend television.

Joanna (20:15)

Show co host, not even solo host.

Michael Wolff (20:18)

Co host becoming the Secretary of Defense is absurd. But then on top of that to having this guy lecture a room full of one to four star generals about what's makes a real fighting man. And as you say, in the midst of this taking his slurp of coffee is, is beyond, beyond what would even be the word parody. I mean credulity. You can't even believe this is happening. How has this come to pass? And this whole audience of, of generals and, and, and admirals are, are, are, are. That's, that is what is on their face. How has this come to happen? And then I suppose. And what does this mean? I mean these are, these are, these are the two big questions of the week.

Joanna (21:25)

I mean there's so much to unpack in this speech. I mean not least the silence of it. You know that phrase silence is deafening, which I'd never fully appreciated until watching them respond, which was. There was no response and it was as if they were afraid to respond because I'm sure their terrified cameras are kind of looking for any kind of eye roll at all. But also the sheer criticism of them that he was just laying into how the military had been run by previous presidents.

Michael Wolff (21:58)

Well, just, just step back a second because you know, I mean they are, they have, are find themselves are trapped in the, in the middle of what is obviously a political event with all the training of military training being that we do not engage in politics.

Joanna (22:19)

And here he was making a clearly very political speech.

Michael Wolff (22:23)

The meaning of this, of, of this speech was actually kind of humiliation. You've been all called on the carpet. Here we are, this alcoholic former weekend television co host is the boss now.

Joanna (22:41)

I mean, I think we should remind people too. Let's not forget the extraordinary moment where it became clear that he had leaked classified details of a live military action on WhatsApp. I mean it was Mike Waltz, the National Security Advisor who actually technically, but there was Pete Hegseth, the defense Secretary giving away literally live details of action. I mean, it was a strange, embarrassing moment. And there he is lecturing these generals.

Michael Wolff (23:12)

Whenever you speak to anybody from.

Joanna (23:17)

Who.

Michael Wolff (23:17)

Works at the Pentagon, I mean, you know, it's a kind of, oh, my God response. I mean, the military has never seen anything like this. I truly believe. And it's really another aspect of this. I mean, it's the Trump aspect of this. Trump's inability to understand or appreciate an institutional culture. From Trump's point of view, military, he calls it my military. And so it's like, okay, these people, these people work for me. They're here to do what I want them to do, and they're here to be useful to me. This is their. So this is seen beyond duty to God and country. This is duty to Donald Trump, which is the only way he sees things. I mean, I actually believe that he has an. And cognitive inability to grasp this in a more. To have a more generalized idea of greater purpose.

Joanna (24:37)

Well, what's interesting, too, and we've written at the Daily Beast frequently about this, is that Pete Hegseth has become increasingly paranoid. He's paranoid about people leaking things. He's been firing people. He's now saying that he's going to do random. What is it called, Truth or lie tests. When you put someone under a test to see whether or not they're lying, they're going to.

Michael Wolff (25:01)

You need a lie detector is what you're groping for.

Joanna (25:06)

I'm still feeling what they call breakthrough pain from my recent hip surgery. So I had a flash of it there as I was grasping for the idea of a lie detector test. But. But everything we're hearing out of the Pentagon is that Pete is feeling increasingly paranoid that people are circling his job and that the Pentagon have got it in for him.

Michael Wolff (25:29)

No doubt the Pentagon has it in for him, but that's also the way everybody around Donald Trump feels, right? I mean, the knives are out for everyone. Everyone is paranoid about everyone else. And in the end, most paranoid about Donald Trump. Do I have his favor? Do I not have his favor? What is he thinking? All of these people are asking at any given moment, what's in Trump's head.

Joanna (25:59)

Well, and clearly, as you're always saying, it's about an audience of one. It was an audience of one that he was talking to on Tuesday, despite the fact he'd gathered everybody there. So we have the. The huge American flag behind him, which is a reference to the General Patton movie that Trump likes so much.

Michael Wolff (26:17)

There are many presidents who have liked that. Movie that was a favorite of Nixon's too.

Joanna (26:21)

Okay.

Michael Wolff (26:22)

And, and, and actually, it's a great movie. It's a riveting scene. When was the last time you saw this? I. I watched this movie frequently. It's a favorite of mine.

Joanna (26:31)

I've never watched this movie, and I will. I was planning actually to watch it over the weekend, and I guess it's better that he had that up there than Fatal Attraction, which would be less of a. Although, goodness knows, Pete Hegseth has had a very dramatic domestic life, you know, necessitating a letter from his mother telling him that he was an abuser of women, which for a mother to write her son, I think was a devastating moment, one hopes, for him. So he's a man with a very complicated background. He was accused, as we know, of sexual assault, which is why certain Joni Ernst US Senators were apprehensive about him. But nevertheless, he got through the Senate confirmation process with a deciding vote by JD Vance. I thought that this was a speech that, looking at some of the comments on YouTube, he was putting out there to be rousing, and this was his bid to be taken seriously as a potential presidential candidate. I think everybody around Trump knows that he's not well, and they see his cankles, they see the fact that he's not quite as robust as he was. They see the manic tweets at 2 in the morning on Truth Social, and they're beginning to position themselves. And J.D. vance, obviously taking over Charlie Kirk's podcast didn't have the same impact that I think Pete Hegseth addressing the military did.

Michael Wolff (27:59)

Let's take another break, Joanna.

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Joanna (30:06)

And Michael Wolff and I are back inside Trump's head.

Michael Wolff (30:10)

It's hard to fully appreciate this because it is a, it's not a contiguous second term, but this is, Trump is a second term president. Things actually go wrong for almost everyone in a second term. They have not yet started to go wrong. Trump is, and this is worth spending some time on, he has really bucked the trends so far of a second term presidency. At the same time, it is a second term presidency. It will come to an end. He is formally a lame duck. He cannot run again. So despite Steve Bannon delivering Bannon baloney about a third term, there's not going to be a third term and somebody else is going to gradually or all at once emerge as the Republican standard bearer. And, and so it's, it's open season. Who's going to do this? Pete Hagseth? Bobby Kennedy? It's J.D. vance. I mean, it is, it's kind of, you know, we can come back to the beginning of this show where we talked about the ridiculousness of the people around Trump. But one of these ridiculous people will probably emerge as the next ridiculous presidential candidate. And if history is any lesson, ridiculousness is a, is a political plus.

Joanna (31:51)

Well, I did think there was some extraordinary moments in his speech, not least that he kept saying this is brought to you by the warrior ethos. And then he made a reference to his book. I wish I had been in the room because when he made a reference to his book, which he sort of threw out there, his book about the warrior, normally in a room, especially if the room was supportive of you, there would be a sort of tittering of laughter and a lot of people would have read the book. I didn't get the sense that people understood the book was by him. It was in theory a self deprecating joke, but in fact there was zero response, at least watching it as it was televised. And then his obsession about beards, about haircuts. We got lots of comments saying that this is racist and this is very clearly aimed at black people. A lot of people reached out and said, well, Sikhs are mighty warriors and they grow their hair. And then there was zero mention of the thing that I find the most depressing in terms of someone's appearance, which is tattoos. I mean, he is smothered in tattoos in his little suits that are all too small for him and he's got those strange arms that are so jacked that he can't put them flat against his sides, so they slightly bounce up as he walks around. And his pants were too small.

Michael Wolff (33:15)

Let me return to tattoos because one of my favorite stories, among the many favorite stories of the of the campaign was a moment in which at a particular rally, Trump was approached by a young man with a tattoo on his face, on his forehead. And it was a young man who was a very Trumpy young man. And Trump took in the flattery and adulation, this man's insistence that he was the greatest Trump supporter at all time. But Trump couldn't, was clearly trying not to focus on the tattoo, but then finally interrupted this young man and said, I just wondered how much would it cost to get that tattoo. Tattoo removed?

Joanna (34:17)

Of course, because he's not going to hire someone with a facial tattoo. I mean, to be fair, I don't think most bosses will hire people with a, with a facial tattoo. But Pete Hegseth is smothered in them. Even as he crams himself into his little blue suit, which he's trying to make his visual identifier, I think. Anyway, I found it extraordinary and patronizing of, as you say, these one to four star generals who spent their life dedicated to this country running incredibly complex maneuvers and machinery. I also thought that the way Pete Hegseth talked about warfare was sort of dating back to the second World War. We know that current warfare is now cyber warfare. And it's largely drones. The idea that you're going to be ripping someone apart limb from limb, which is really what he was getting at, felt much more GI Joe than Modern Warfare of the 21st century.

Michael Wolff (35:14)

Well, no, I mean, I think in. One of the questions to come out of this is, how do these guys react to this? What do they do? I mean, these guys, meaning the top brass of the United States military, and I'm not sure they know the answer to this. I, I suspect that they know that this is. That they're in a difficult and probably impossible position, and they're just holding their breath and saying, this, too, shall pass. But I don't know, and I don't know if it will pass.

Joanna (35:56)

Well, and there was also the moment where he said, you know, those of you who aren't on board for this, do the honorable thing. You should resign. I mean, I think felt that there was a very threatening undercurrent coming from him.

Michael Wolff (36:11)

No, no, the, the. I mean, the message is, again, this is Donald Trump's military, my military. And, and you have to put everything else you have learned about God and country aside and, and accept that this is the circumstances that you now work under, you work under. For your entire focus, your raison d' etre, is to carry out Donald Trump's wishes.

Joanna (36:47)

Yeah, I mean, undoubtedly. And also, I was trying to figure out, how do they talk about this with each other? I mean, you could almost see them sort of looking at their neighbors and wondering, you know, you can't put anything, obviously, on social media. Nobody writes letters anymore. Do you call people? How do you talk about it?

Michael Wolff (37:08)

I'm sure they don't know. This is, again, an impossible situation. So, I mean, I think that they're just stuck holding their breath and again, saying, this, too shall pass, which it may not.

Joanna (37:21)

Well, we're not going to pass, Michael. We're going to keep traipsing around Trump's head, finding odd crannies and nooks with strange surprises in them. So I will see you next Tuesday, and who knows if we'll still be in a shutdown.

Michael Wolff (37:41)

Will we be in the studio next Tuesday?

Joanna (37:44)

I hope to make it into the studio, to hobble into the studio. And I tell you what I did want to do. I wanted to thank people for their comments, and there were various comments I wanted to read out. Actually, I'm going to do some quick fires at you, Suzanne. Daniel wanted to know what is going into Trump's library. What will be in his library?

Michael Wolff (38:05)

Rides and teacups.

Joanna (38:08)

Those teacups and sauces that spin you round. Can. This is a good question. Can Trump build a White House ballroom without congressional approval and planning? And could a future president demolish it? And could they bring back the Rose Garden, Jackie Kennedy's beloved Rose Garden that of course, he's paved over and put Mar A Lago umbrellas on?

Michael Wolff (38:32)

Well, apparently he can because he is.

Joanna (38:37)

So is that because he's raising the money himself? I mean, he says he's paying for it himself, but in fact, companies have stepped forward to pay for it.

Michael Wolff (38:48)

Yes, but I assume, and I mean, traditionally presidents have had wide discretion over the White House. I think that there are some restraints and some funding issues. But again, as I say, apparently he can do this because he is. And yes, I think that somebody, a future president, could come back and restore the Rose Garden. I mean, I think the point of the ballroom is to make it so large that it would be impossible to undo and just to make. Richard Nixon paved the filled in the swimming pool, and it has remained filled.

Joanna (39:38)

In, which is too bad, because Trump looks like he could do with a bit of exercise. He could have a couple of morning laps, actually.

Michael Wolff (39:44)

Well, there's a. There's a site.

Joanna (39:46)

Oh, there's a site. Trump in a Speedo, you mean?

Michael Wolff (39:49)

Yes.

Joanna (39:50)

All right, so here's a question. Do you think that Dr. Oz was Jeffrey Epstein's doctor? Might he be on the list?

Michael Wolff (39:59)

He wasn't Jeffrey Epstein's doctor.

Joanna (40:01)

Okay. He wasn't Jeffrey Epstein's doctor. Okay. Well, that's the.

Michael Wolff (40:04)

Jeffrey Epstein had a lot of doctors, and if you called him and asked them, he would always have a doctor he could send you to.

Joanna (40:10)

Okay. A doctor and a lawyer. I think you once said he had 75 lawyers.

Michael Wolff (40:14)

Yes, he did. 75 lawyers.

Joanna (40:16)

And thank you to all of those who commented that you hope I get well soon, particularly Robin. Joanna, please take care of your recovery. I am doing my best. I've got lots of ice packs going on. We'll come back to more comments. We got a lot of comments from listeners and viewers on Spotify, so we will come back to those on Tuesday. Michael, there's a shutdown, but we won't shut down. We will be back on Tuesday to.

Michael Wolff (40:40)

See if the government has. Has started up again.

Joanna (40:44)

Yeah. Who knows? But I think what we do know is we can't quite predict what will have happened by then. We're living in an age of deep uncertainty.

Michael Wolff (40:51)

Joanna, I will see you very soon.

Joanna (40:53)

Okay. Michael, go. Well, if you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And please join the Daily beast community on YouTube. Leave us a comment. And don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast too, where we will keep you up to date with the moment by moment, news of the shutdown and the crazy that's going on in dc. And if you can't get enough dc, sign up for our newsletter called the Swamp, which gives you even more delicious detail of the madness. The madness. Don't forget, as our first lady would have us say, bebeast. And thank you to our bebeast tier of members, Superior members Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel and freedc. And thank you to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Ersen and our editor, Jesse Millwood.

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